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A 9/11 Reality Check
What if eight years ago the World Trade Center had been leveled by a small nuclear bomb that took out most of lower Manhattan as well? How many millions of innocent civilians would we have killed in retaliation? Would we still be a free society, or would Dick Cheney have attained the power of a demented king, having moved on from snooping on our phone calls and outing honest CIA agents to destroying the last vestiges of the rule of law?
As assaults on a society go, the 9/11 attacks, which left 3,000 dead and are sure to be described in this anniversary week as being among the greatest of historical outrages, were something less than that, given the world's experience with the ravages of war. The countless Russians and the 6 million Jews killed by those so finely educated Germans come to mind. The 3.4 million Vietnamese, mostly rice farmers, whom Robert McNamara admitted to having helped kill with his carpet-bombing of their country, are a forgotten footnote. Yet we who have never experienced such carnage on our home front all too easily poke out tens of thousands of eyes for each lost one of our own.
Surely two planes crashing into office buildings and another hitting the Pentagon doesn't compare to the leveling of every major city in Japan with conventional bombing, capped off by the mass murder of hundreds of thousands more at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Speaking of eyes lost, mark the words of Hiroshima's mayor two years ago: "That fateful summer, 8:15 AM. The roar of a B-29 breaks the morning calm. A parachute opens in the blue sky. Then suddenly, a flash, an enormous blast-silence-hell on Earth. The eyes of young girls watching the parachute were melted."
We assumed that the Japanese people would readily forgive us and, having been raised in the spirit of total obedience to their emperor, they accommodated our occupation quite well, even injecting industrial-grade silicon into their women's breasts to satisfy the erotic appetites of our soldiers.
Americans who blithely claim the moral high ground with every pledge of allegiance to a flag that, because it is American, is assumed to have never been sullied by imperial greed or moral contradiction expect no less than instant and full forgiveness for our "mistakes." Only last month, four decades after he led the massacre of 500 villagers in My Lai, Vietnam, did former Army Lt. William Calley express "regret" for his crimes. He served no time in prison for the point-blank shooting of toddlers, thanks to the commutation of his sentence by Richard Nixon, who might have been anticipating his own need for a presidential pardon.
In blind and wrathful retaliation for 9/11 we wreaked havoc on Iraq, a nation that our then-president knew had not attacked us, and we continue to slaughter peasants in Afghanistan who aren't able to find Manhattan on a map.
We, a people whose nation has never suffered a long and widespread occupation, easily gave vent to our most barbaric impulses, assuming the absolute right to arrest and torture anyone anywhere in the world without revealing his identity, let alone respecting a single one of those God-given rights that we claim for ourselves alone. And even when we identify the few we hold responsible for the attacks on our soil, we refuse them public and fair trials even after years of torturing them.
But we do have a saving grace for our experiment in democracy-although unfortunately it did not exist in the Supreme Court or Congress as a barrier to an imperial vice presidency. It is the power of the lone whistle-blower of conscience, occasionally given voice in what remains of our free press and which can influence presidential elections, as happened quite dramatically this last time around. There are those like Joe Wilson, who exposed presidential fraud masquerading as national security concern over bogus Iraqi purchases of uranium from Niger, and more recently the truth-telling of Ali H. Soufan, a former FBI agent and lead interrogator of terrorists.
In Sunday's New York Times, Soufan, who was involved in obtaining much reliable information from prisoners before they were tortured, observed that the recently released memos cited by Cheney to back his argument that torture was efficient actually "fail to show that the techniques stopped even a single imminent threat of terrorism."
So, Cheney is again proved wrong, but if there had been a larger attack on 9/11, I doubt whether many free souls would be around now to tell him so.
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74 Comments so far
Show All18,000 Americans die every year because of the health insurance industry, making health insurance companies six times as effective at killing Americans than al Qaeda.
So far, the health insurance industry has spent over $400,000,000 to keep meaningful health insurance reform off the table. I wonder how many Americans died or became homeless to supply the lobbyists with that $400M.
"I have seen the enemy, and they are us."
mispost
nygenxer: 18,000 Americans die every year because of the death panels that get away with murder!
nygenxer: 18,000 Americans die every year because of the death panels that get away with murder!
The REAL death panels are the boardrooms of Aetna, Cigna and Humana.
Don't forget; Aaaff-Lllaaaaccc.
Please support NYC CAN for a new/re-investigation of 9/11. 9/11 was an inside job. The evidence is overwhelming. Do not sell your children's future by accepting the "official story".
Free DVDs from the 911dvdproject.com
Other valuable sites that will lead you to many more and some excellent books:
ae911truth.org
911sharethetruth.com............ And, again, please support NYC CAN
911weknow.com
stj911.org
911blogger.com
physics911.net
911research.com
infowars.com
wtc7.net
pilotsfor911truth.org.
Darth Cheney is a monstrous enemy of humanity. Thank God for Karma!
My healthcare provider, United HealthCare, was chosen by the state of Georgia for its employees. They have denied coverage for two separate doctors' prescriptions in the last month. Guess its a crapshoot when you need medication.
This is intolerable!!
I encourage you to call your local newspaper, television and radio station and tell them your story.
By doing so you may get others to do the same.
Sorry, they're too busy at your local TV stations counting the cash they've made from the "healthcare reform" ads.
All this controver$y has been velly-velly good for dim.
nygenxer September 9th, 2009 9:00 am....................And what has this to do with the millions of dead and displaced Iraqis and Afghans who are victims of thr false flag of 9/11? Do THEIR lives not count?
Expose the lies of 9/11 and put truth back on the table.
Nevergiveup,
My comments were not meant to minimize, in any way, the suffering of the Iraqi and Afghan people. My comments pertain exclusively to the health insurance industry and no other meaning should be taken.
and don't forget that the US provided the where-with-all that enable the Israeli blitz on Gaza killing all those largely innocent people. Before the Zionist Sayans attack me arguably all the so-called combatants were doing was protecting their homeland.
Robert Scheer is correct that compared to other incidents of mass slaughter, such as Hiroshima and My Lai, what happened on Sept. 11, 2001 is relatively insignificant. But one strongly suspects that he would receive a different reaction from those people who lost their families on that fateful day. For that reason, the families of those victims deserve to know the truth which is why an open and honest investigation of the events of 9/11/01 [as opposed to the whitewash that was committed by the 9/11 Kean/Zekilow Commission] should be required. But with Obama and Scheer already believing, without a shred of proof, that al Qaeda was somehow behind those attacks, the chances that a genuine investigation will finally take place look slim indeed.
Erroll September 9th, 2009 9:47 am......Please do not give up so easily. NYC CAN is doing a great job. Please send them some support.
I do not believe 9/11 is relatively insignificant. One cannot/should not forget the lives and culture lost in Iraq and Afghanistan and now, Pakistan. 9/11 was the dastardly/horrendous impetus behind it all.
Nevergiveup
Perhaps what I should have written is that while Scheer may believe that 9/11/01 was a "mere footnote" in history the families of those victims [and myself] certainly believe otherwise.
I basically agree with what you have to say, Robert. But I would add one more moral outrage: the fact that we the people allowed "our" government "officials" to claim superior "intelligence" as to WHO committed 9/11, WHY they did it, and WHAT was going to be done about it. And that we allowed this "intelligence" to be pronounced within three hours of the events -- even though not a single investigator from local, state or federal police even bothered to examine the crime scene to collect forensic evidence. This might be the biggest moral outrage of the past twenty years: that the American people allowed themselves to be totally bamboozled by a tiny cabal of carnival barkers, con men, and counterfeit "wise men" known as "the intelligence community."
Furthermore, even though thousands of civil engineers, architects and physicists (I among them) have repeatedly shown by the globally accepted principles of science that the "official" explanation of 9/11 is no more rational than the infamous Weapons of Mass Deception, still common dreamers continue to accept it and refuse to hit the streets in moral outrage. For more on this see "Silicon Valley Architects Question 9/11" here:
sillyconvalley.net
To me this is treason!
To take advantage of a horrific disaster to further your AGENDA!
The Lies told were just that. Independent of the False Flag event, investigate the lies acted upon. That's not too much to ask is it?
Oh we will talk about what is torture, but we can't face the facts that this whole series of events were triggered by a preplanned, premeditated AGENDA.
New evidence of thermite in the dust samples gives me hope that somebody in power will attack the official story.
sillyConValley (September 9th, 2009 10:49 am) -- You say you are a civil engineer, architect, or physicist who believes the "accepted principles of science" establish that the official explanation of 9/11 is insupportable. I request that you review comments I've made in response to earlier posts in this thread and let me know what you think.
I'm not just trying to explain why common dreamers aren't hitting the streets in moral outrage, although probably my forest/trees analogy explains it.
I wonder how people would react if another country, say Venezuela, decided to snatch American citizens (point-men in the investment banking, defense, media and oil industry) off the street and rendition them to Iran to be held accountable for their various crimes and ravages against the people of the world.
If our government can claim this right what prevents every other country from copying our lead?
The USA has no one else to blame for the 9/11 disaster and the subsequent revelations of how corrupt their very society is; but themselves.
They worship mediocrity, and conservatism, and they refuse to learn from their own mistakes as well as those of others. The seemingly endless displays of arrogance and conceit on a national level has brought them to the point where the world now fears and loathes the USA and for just cause.
"If the USA were another nation, the USA would invade the USA to keep the world safe; and they would be justified."
Without major change, and soon (which I believe the USA is incapable of) the world will simply cut off the credit lines to the USA and the Americans will devour themselves. Indeed they already have begun to do just that.
The world will be a safer place, if not better, and humanity will have an extremely effective negative example and a horrible warning for the future.
Whether the world actually learns from that example will remain in the realm of the unknown for most Americans, they will have become 'extinct', and justifiably so.
Good Luck America.
NativeSon September 9th, 2009 11:30 am...........................Are you against a re-investigation of 9/11?
"nevergiveup"
I frankly do not care whether it is reopened or not.
The fact that so many such as yourself are suspicious of your own government that you would believe that it would perform such an 'act of horror upon itself' is sufficient to prove my point.
That six times* that number of Americans die each year from lack of adequate medical care, in a nation so wealthy, with so many doctors as members of its population is sufficient to prove my point.
That the author, or any others for that matter have ever mentioned that the USA could possibly have 'deserved' such an event as a result of the constant meddling in the affairs of other nations is sufficient to prove my point. But if the 9/11 hijackers had simply wanted to kill 'infidels' they could have done in Mexico City what they did in NY City and killed at the least 20 times that many Catholics-"infidels"--but Mexico does not meddle in the affairs of other nations: the USA does.
That the USA would have a political system that would allow people like GW Bush and Cheney to rise to such levels of absolute power, and then not hold them responsible for the abuses of that power is sufficient to prove my point.
That people like Oliver North, a convicted 'war criminal' not only would receive a 'pardon' ,but become a millionaire from his 'name recognition' as an 'American Hero' is sufficient to prove my point, and he is not alone.
But what is my point?
I could go on and on and on---but, what would be the point? Most Americans do not care, or I would not be able to 'go on and on and on'---. Most Americans are very smug and self righteous, and the most arrogant people to have ever risen to power and they could care less that they are so. Most Americans believe that they are free from the attacks of other nations and when a 'few' sick demented but 'dedicated' 'fools' agree to commit a terrible act of terror, most Americans are willing to attack two other nations in 'retaliations'----whether those nations were involved or not.
If one were to take the total of innocent people killed by America in Afghanistan and Iraq and Pakistan---then add all of the 'extra ordinary renditions' and then---if one could even find the truth; the total number of human lives that have been ended, or destroyed, or negatively impacted for generations to come. It would make the 18K Americans mentioned above* seem like a small number.
'MY POINT' IS SIMPLY THIS;
Life is 'cheap' to America and Americans---unless of course it is their own; and even then 'life' can still be 'cheap' it simply depends upon 'who's life it is'.
Their history reveals this one truth; they shed the blood of those who are in their way, and those that they consider unworthy of consideration. The have even shed more of their own blood than all the others combined when they turned upon themselves. And 'innconet blood' seems to be their 'favorite'---. No one is safe from their abuses, and no one has held them accountable----yet.
But the world fears and loathes them---and for good cause.
The world cannot possibly tolerate the USA much longer.
America cannot go much longer without answering for it.
"If the USA were another nation, the USA would invade the USA to keep the world safe; and they would be justified."
Good Luck America---you really need it.
NativeSon September 9th, 2009 6:36 pm..........I can only agree with all you have said. There are those of us who do the best we can to fight the monster. Some are in a better position than others. Many do not fight or resist. They scare me more than anything else. You were smart and left many years ago. Wish I had done the same. Knowledge and awareness are not always timely.
The American people have been lied to and conned for many.many years; especially in foreign policy,from Korea to Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan. 911 is just the latest con job! Talk about conspiracy theories! Every thing this government tells us about foreign policy is a conspiracy theory!
9/11 was premeditated murder on a grand scale...
a + plane + bomb = aplomb...supreme confidence...control over pre-planning and execution, subsequent destruction of evidence and testimony, and future potential investigation...
domestic political, judicial, military and media control...
I am immensely grateful to Robert Scheer for speaking up and setting matters aright. These things must be said loudly and clearly.
Regarding the events of 9/11, I recommend that people who have not yet done so, familiarize themselves with the dissident look at what happened on that terrible day:
1) Begin by watching the video lecture by American Institute of Architects member and long time practicing architect Richard Gage "9/11 Blueprint for Truth" (2008) at the Web site of Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth, www.ae911truth.org (you will find the video on the left, towards the top of the home page). The video can also be purchased there. Incidentally, the organization Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth now has a membership of 832 certified architects and engineers and thousand of supporters (this information is available on the Web site).
2) Take the time to read the peer-reviewed paper "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe", by the international team of scientists and engineers composed of Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen, published on April 4, 2009 in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, 2, pages 7-31. The paper is available for free at www.bentham-open.org.
3) Read the extremely important papers by Jim Hoffman on the attack on the Pentagon: "The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics" (November 15 2004),and "The Pentagon Attack : What the Physical Evidence Shows" (March 26, 2006), both available at 911research.wtc7.net.
Without in the least abandoning the dissident viewpoint on 9/11, Hoffman destroys all the accounts that claim that no 757-Boeing hit the Pentagon and shows that the Pentagon is the most divisive issue (first page of the first article) of the movement seeking to elucidate what happened on 9/11. (The overfly theory that has been been going around over the last year or so is an attempt at rekindling the discarded 2003 theory of Dick Eastman, which Hoffman mentions on p. 3 of the first article.)
4) Go to www.patriotsquestion911.com to see what dozens and dozens of professionals and academics (all identified by name and photograph, along with their credentials and academic affiliations), in many fields (scientific and other) have to say about what happened on 9/11.
4) Read David Ray Griffin’s detailed response to Popular Mechanics’ attack against alternative accounts of what happened on 9/11, in his book “Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory,” (Arris Books, 2007); and his “9/11 Contradictions An Open Letter to Congress and the Press” (Interlink Publishing, 2008); and his critique of the National Institute of Standards and Technology's report on the collapse of WTC 7, "The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7: Why the Final Official Report about 9/11 is Unscientific and False" (Interlink Publishing, 2009).
5) Peruse the pages of the free online “Journal of 911 Studies” and read the first paper by physicist Steven Jones “Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse?” in volume 3 (2006); to which you might add the reading of “Some Physical Chemistry Aspects of Thermite, Thermate, Iron-Aluminum-Rich Microspheres, the Eutectic, and the Iron-Sulfur System as Applied to the Demise of Three World Trade Center Buildings on 9/11/2001″ by Jerry Lobdill in volume 12 (2007); and “Extremely high temperatures during the World Trade Center destruction” by Dr. Steven E. Jones, Dr. Jeffrey Farrer, Dr. Gregory S. Jenkins, Dr. Frank Legge, James Gourley, Kevin Ryan, Daniel Farnsworth, and Dr. Crockett Grabbe in volume 19 (January 2008).
It is crucial to elucidate what happened on that wretched day, since it is being used to intimidate people and repress political activity and opinion within the United States by all manner of anti-constitutional measures (the Patriot Act) and to bully the entire world with the so-called "war on terror," which is continuing under Obama.
Wow! You nailed it with this post! Very grateful for that. I was about to write a similar post, but i think i will borrow your points for future use.
I've read everything you mentioned here and it is the top items I always recommend to folks who have an open mind about this subject. And generally, people come back with "a thousand yard stare and a bad case of the mumbles" (Neal Stephensen, Snow Crash)
Time for a real revolution. Social and otherwise.
Thank you for the links. Some I am familiar with, the others I will read.
I'd like to add another very detailed analysis of 9/11.
It is the comprehensive article from E.P. Heidner "Collateral Damage" part I and 2.
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
The SUPERB BACKGROUND INFORMATION Heidner provides sheds further light on the 'rationale' behind 9/11.
As so often, 'just follow the money'.
The implications are BEYOND BELIEF.
Abendland (September 9th, 2009 11:47 am) – Your posts certainly seem sincere, and your mind, rational. I have spent a few hours on the issue but remain unconvinced that 9/11 was anything other than a successful al Qaeda operation, abetted by negligence on the part of the U.S. government as well as the complacency of the U.S. general public. Your view, as I understand it, is that the 9/11 terrorists were aided by criminal acts of persons in the U.S. government.
I looked over the names in your posts and thought back over news items I've seen. While the scientists, engineers, architects, etc. listed seem impressive, no one with public stature beyond that of Van Jones seems to have come out in support the 9/11 "Truther" theory. And the Van Jones debacle certainly didn't promote the Truthers' cause. On the other hand, according to a recent poll, more than a third of the public suspects federal officials participated in the 9/11 attacks, or deliberately let them occur, so that the U.S. would have a reason to go to war in the Middle East. http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll.
So the question remains: why have no members of Congress, and no holders of other national or high state political offices, subscribed to the theory that criminal acts were committed by U.S. officials in furtherance of the 9/11 attacks? Why no federal grand juries? Why no U.S. district attorneys? Why no university presidents? Why no leaders of major religions? Why no progressive organizations not devoted exclusively to this cause? (Correct me if I'm wrong about any of these.)
It is more logical, in my opinion, to believe that the Truthers are mistaken than to believe there is something in our society that divides us into groups that accept or reject the official view of 9/11 depending strictly on social or political status. More logical to believe the Truthers are mistaken than to believe a criminal conspiracy to cause such horrible loss of life and property could be supported by the U.S. government without there being found, by now, enough evidence to prosecute someone.
I'm reminded of UFO's. The evidence makes it much more likely that something isn't quite right in the minds of those who think UFO's are operated by extra-terrestrials, than that we're being visited by creatures from space. I don't suggest Truthers are irrational, but I do suggest the power of suggestion is strong.
Ask and ye shall receive...
Cynthia McKinney, when in congress, sponsored a bill to investigate 9-11 with an independent investigation, but it failed to get enough co-sponsors to be enacted, for a variety of reasons... she was later railroaded out of congress in a set-up & smear campaign in the MSM...
I am not sure why you believe that the lack of public outcry by professionals of "public stature" regarding the 9-11 whitewash commission is proof that the official story is true... it only shows that they are ignorant, dont care, or afraid of political, social, and economic repercussions for speaking the truth... the staged theatrics of Bill Maher and Geraldo ridiculing the Truth movement on national TV is enough to make anyone in a position of "public stature" to stay uninformed or remain silent in order to keep their cush jobs and "public stature"...
I am not sure what articles or websites you read during your hours of research, but the fact that you remain unconvinced that it was an inside job is rather telling...
How can you explain the obvious demolition of WTC 1,2,& 7?
You claim that it is more "logical" to believe that some Saudi wahabbists pulled off the attacks, yet ignore the laws of physics when it comes to the destruction of the WTC, or the small hole in the side of the pentagon...
and ignore the role of the CIA, Israeli Mossad, British MI6, and the Council on Foreign Relations who orchestrated the 9-11 psy-ops event, and led the cover-up... they used the CIA assets (Al Qaeda) as a cover story, as patsies, to redirect public outrage at muslims to get public support for the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq...
there is an abundance of evidence regarding 9-11 to prosecute the folks responsible for that false-flag event.... unfortunately, they remain in power to this day, behind the scenes, and the current POTUS is not interested in looking into the war crimes of previous administrations, he only wants to look forward to the continued escalation of the invasion of AfPak... for the enrichment of his war-profiteering bankster buddies...
GoldenMean (September 10th, 2009 12:20 am) – I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this important issue with you. I have to apologize for not doing many more hours of research, or maybe plead a forest/trees excuse. The trees are the points about building 7, thermitic material, high temperatures during the World Trade Center destruction, domestic plotters, video sequences of what hit the Pentagon, etc. The forest is what I discussed in my post.
You mentioned one person, Cynthia McKinney, who falls in the group I mentioned that apparently includes no one who shares your "Truther" beliefs. My research on the Net indicates she, along with Van Jones, signed the petition stating, "people within the current administration may indeed have deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen, perhaps as a pretext for war." That's not the same as affirming that people in the administration criminally assisted the al Qaeda terrorists. I don't know if McKinney ever went further than raising questions about this. Is it enough to raise questions? It seems to me that to be a 9/11 Truther, you have to believe people within the administration did deliberately allow 9/11 to happen, for the purpose of justifying war in the Middle East. Am I wrong?
You say, "I am not sure why you believe that the lack of public outcry by professionals of ‘public stature' regarding the 9-11 whitewash commission is proof that the official story is true . . ." I didn't say that. My point is that I would rather believe, based on the evidence I've seen, that al Qaeda did it and administration officials and others were essentially asleep at the wheel, than that administration officials acted (or failed to act) in a conspiracy with al Qaeda operatives. If the latter was true, it seems to me that someone in Congress, law enforcement, etc., would by now have brought a case against the conspirators. And that more evidence supporting criminal charges would be in the public domain.
This isn't like the torture controversy. We know, from credible evidence in the public domain, that torture was committed, and that, because the prisoners were detained and tortured per administration policies, administration officials were responsible. The questions about torture concern the definition of torture and whether for political reasons those responsible for the torture shouldn't be prosecuted. No such issues exist regarding 9/11.
I certainly favor more investigation into 9/11. If, as I believe, the Bush administration was negligent, that alone is a monumental failure that should be thoroughly documented and hung around the necks of the (ir)responsible parties. But mere negligence isn't criminal. If criminal acts are uncovered by further investigations, then of course prosecution should ensue.
According to Politico's Ben Smith, several people have said that they were misled about that petition, that the petition they signed said something different...including Howard Zinn.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909
/Trutherismlite_and_a_second_Jones_tie.html
First of all... An independent investigation would have determined that folks within the previous administration did indeed plan 9-11....
Secondly... Negligence IS a crime when people are injured or killed as a result....
If you neglegently drive your car and kill some pedestrian, you are likely to be convicted of vehicular homicide, whether or not it was your intention to do so...
When it comes to national defense, there are protocols that if violated, are considered violating the law...
Cheney ORDERED the fighter jets to stand down well after it was known that it was NOT one of the multiple war games drills being conducted on the morning of 9-11... This is not negligence, but intention...
The folks who carried out 9-11 wanted to steal the gold & silver in the twin towers, destroy the worthless securities certificates they used to bankrupt the Soviet Union, destroy the case files of thousands of investigations into corporate & banking fraud like Enron, and destroy the evidence and case files that the ONI had in the Pentagon, where 39 of the 40 naval intelligence officers working on the investigations into the pentagon fraud were killed that day... Follow the money...
GoldenMean (September 10th, 2009 5:37 pm) – I'll address your points as presented.
1. I don't know how you would know what the results of an independent investigation would be, if one wasn't done. This is pure speculation.
2. Negligence isn't a crime even if people are killed, unless the negligence is egregious (the offense is known as criminally negligent homicide). I doubt the Bush administration's negligence rose to that level, although it might have (so I'll concede that further investigation should cover that point).
What are the "protocols that if violated, are considered violating the law" when it comes to national defense?
How does Cheney's stand-down order, which obviously had to be intentional, in itself entail commission of a crime? More evidence is needed.
How would destroying the towers relate to stealing property in them? As to the other motives, I don't know what evidence there is, but I expect you can point me to something . . .
I don't mean to be dismissive, but none of this addresses my basic point, which is that the enormity of the crime you assert occurred makes me think there would have to be more evidence that would lead to prosecution, and would make believers out of persons in the groups I described. Not even McKinney and Van Jones seem as convinced as you are.
"How would destroying the towers relate to stealing property in them?...I expect you can point me to something..."
Maybe I can help out. Please take the time and read articles below. They are lengthy, comprehensive and full of references and footnotes. Many of your queries will be answered. It might just be that you (like so many good fellow citizens) will have trepidations to acknowledge the inevitable horrendous truth.
“Collateral Damage” by E. P Heidner, part I and II.
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
yachtie (September 10th, 2009 11:07 pm) -- Thanks for the response. I hope you don't think I'm disrespecting you or the others who think as you do. I checked the EP Heidner web site you linked and, not surprisingly, find that I don't have time to go through the parts you mentioned, not to mention the whole thing.
I'm not sure everyone knows that there are "debunkers" responding to people like EP Heidner. See, for example,
http://www.debunking911.com/index.html. Clearly one could devote a career to this subject.
You didn't respond to my fundamental point made earlier in this thread. I want to add another analogy. David Hume, the philosopher, debunked miracles by saying that for a person who accepts reason to believe in miracles requires that the proof of any given miracle exceed the proof for the scientific principles that the miracle conflicts with. This is what we're talking about regarding 9/11.
If Truthers are like people who believe in miracles, at least they're in good company.
Robert Scheer's article is useless because he will not accept the visual proof that the 3 buildings that came down that day were set for demolition by people who had access to those buildings and that sure wasn't any al queda or arab terrorists and since just about all the video from the pentagon is being held by the fbi, supposedly, who can tell what actually hit the pentagon?
I would say Robert should review all the evidence about the attack that day and use his energies to call for a very thorough and close investigation, PEOPLE FROM OUR OWN COUNTRY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR BRINGING THOSE BUILDINGS DOWN.
For an attempt at explaining by a member of the movement for truth about 9/11 why the video sequences of what hit the Pentagon on 11/9 are being withheld from the public, read the extremely important papers by Jim Hoffman on the attack on the Pentagon:
"The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics" (November 15 2004), and
"The Pentagon Attack : What the Physical Evidence Shows" (March 26, 2006), both available at 911research.wtc7.net.
Clue: the videos from the Pentagon's cameras are the insurance policy of the domestic plotters. For more on the insurance hypothesis, see Frank Legge's paper "What Hit the Pentagon?" in its second version of August 27, 2009, published in the Journal of 9/11 Studies, available for free at www.journalof911studies.com.
What do I mean by 'domestic plotters'? In my view, the current state of the research into the events of 9/11 (carried out by numerous investigators) allows one to say that there were two attacks on 9/11: the first is the one carried out by the four airliners hijacked by foreign plotters; the second one, carried out by domestic plotters under cover of the first, consisted in taking down WTC 1, 2 and 7 by controlled demolition, and probably in setting off an explosion as flight AA 77 hit the Pentagon (see pages 4 and 7 the first Hoffman article), and in downing flight UA 93 over Pennsylvania, as by that time the domestic conspirators had decided that their operation was over.
True, absolutely true.
BUT: He is right about Dick Cheney.
Cheney coordinated it all.
It seems that the point of the article causes no problem to anyone.
Why should people's email and phone conversation be taken at face value, and used against them.
The bottom line of the canadian and british story is the same, targeting of young muslim people probably as angry as I am about the destruction of Afghanistan and Irak and discuss what you could do.
It is very telling that the proposed operations are very vague (would be even vaguer without the intervention of friendly secret service agents who come up with traditional ideas that have not been used for decades) and there we go. That the plot cannot be taken seriously for many reasons, for instance the liquid explosive needs to be invented for a start no specific flight is targeted, etc... On top of that you should add, if we were to be punished for intent, we'd need to turn this planet into a big prison and we would have no judge or guard because there would be no innocent people. You can always make plans and give them up at any point before a crime is committed, but with the appearance of the thought crime, we are all criminels.
I would add to finish that it is the invasion of the police state which create insecurity and violence!
Would it not be better to give up aggressive foreign policies, to try to develop a really milticultural society which is curious of the other not worried by him?
Good article, but it does fail to mention anything about how American Exceptionalism and racism may be a part of this...Who cares about a few million dead Vietnamese? Bunch of fricking gooks anyway right? Just like all the Japs, Huns, and ragheads that have been killed, so what? They're not *American*, or in some cases, *white*.
Two disclaimers: I don't approve using those horribly racist terms, just pointing out how racists might feel about the millions of innocent people our military has killed.
Second, I don't buy into the 9-11 conspiracy theories. Sorry guys, and don't bother pelting me with demands to read websites or prove Bush and co. didn't do it.
zmann September 9th, 2009 12:50 ..............No sorry necessary. Denial is a rampant trait in today's society. You are in good company.....I think.
Don't let facts on the ground or the laws of physics get in the way of your presumptions and assumptions...
The unwillingness to review all of the available evidence before coming to your own conclusions is the hallmark of a closed mind...
Like the creationists unwilling to review the evidence that support the theory of evolution... Folks who have already made up their minds about 9-11 are victims of their own lack of critical thinking skills...
Without an understanding of the motivations and associations of those on the 9-11 commission, then you are taking their POV on blind faith...
But who am I to disabuse you of your illusions... I can only lead you to the water... I can't make you think...
"Folks who have already made up their minds about 9-11 are victims of their own lack of critical thinking skills..."
I apply my critical thinking skills about this towards the prevention of another occurrence of such an attack by questioning and criticizing our Middle Eastern and Israeli policies. If you think Americans carried out these attacks, then you must also think what we do in the Middle East has little consequence other than that of our own consciences, and it can't come back to bite us in the butt in any way.
zmann September 9th, 2009 2:06 pm.........Maybe you can explain your "progression of logic". It sure escapes me.
Pretty simple to me, but I'm not trained in logic or debate. If nobody from the ME attacked us, nothing to worry about from our policies, is there?
zmann September 9th, 2009 2:58 pm......By policy, do you mean the policy (lies) that got us there? The policy (lie) that keeps us there? Our hegemony that allows us to do this wherever/whenever we wish? And who has nothing to worry about? Us? Them?
It is never too late to train yourself in the skills of critical thinking, to learn how to use logic to define a problem, determine the causes, and discern a solution... claiming that you were never "trained" to think critically is just an excuse for not wanting to think critically... it is sad that many folks are able to graduate from high school, let alone college, without learning how to think critically... this is by design, for the Powers That Be do not want a population of educated people, they want a population of ignorant people who are productive workers... now that you have graduated from college, you can choose to educate yourself on all of the skills that will actually develop the faculties of reason for the "higher mind"...
The skills of debate are not only helpful in articulating your own points in discussing issues with others, but they help you to differentiate truth from falsity, emotion from reason, fact from fiction, and propaganda from authentic information, while conducting your own independent research...
No need to enroll in Philosophy 101 at the local CC... you can just google "logical premises" to learn about strawman arguments, red herrings, ad hominem attacks, and sentimental set-ups, paradoxical pit-falls, and all of the other devices used by the propagandists to throw folks off the trail when seeking the truth... it is also helpful to read up on the techniques developed by Bernays & Goebbels, in order to understand how propaganda has been and is currently being used by the Nazis, advertising executives, and the government spin doctors and MSM echo-chamber of this country and others to down-play, confound, befuddle, derail, mislead, dodge, deflect, deny, and ridicule those seeking truth and justice.... like "repeat a lie enough times, and most people will believe it"...
I know that it is hard to believe that thousands of folks can be in on a conspiracy to murder and deceive the American public, but it is nothing new, and has become more sophisticated and organized over the years, especially when you consider that most authoritarian power structures are organized in a hierarchical model, with specialized professional roles, and "intelligence" is only shared on a "need to know" basis ... The USS Maine, Lucitania, USS Liberty, Pearl Harbor, and Gulf War I & II were all based on lies & deception, False flag attacks, or allowing the attacks to take place to justify US military involvement in foreign wars, for fun and profit...
Thanks for taking the time to give me advice on learning these skills.
And I think you left out the Gulf of Tonkin incident there, that is one I would agree with you was a total lie.