John Walker Lindh: The Original Bush Era Torture Victim?
Bush/Cheney Torture Campaign Began with Rumsfeld Instructions to 'Take the Gloves Off' with John Walker Lindh
As pressure mounts for an investigation or criminal prosecution of the officials and the decisions that led to an official government program of torture, the case of John Walker Liindh, the young American fighter arrested with the Taliban early in the Afghanistan invasion, may offer an example of the earliest case of documentable officially sanctioned torture.
It is well documented that Lindh was subjected to what any objective observer would call torture-duct-taped naked to a gurney, his eyes also duct-taped shut, left alone for 23 hours at a stretch in a closed, unheated, unlit steel shipping container, his wounded leg left untreated for a week, removed to be interrogated, threatened repeatedly with death by his American captives, mocked when he asked to see an attorney (his Constitutional right as a US citizen).
But it seems clear that the abuse and torture to which Lindh was subjected after he was captured in Afghanistan was, like the abuse of captives held at Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad, not the freelance work of bad apples in the US military. Rather, it was directed from on high levels of the military chain of command.
One of the documents obtained by Lindh's lawyers, who finally got on the case once Lindh had been flown home by the government to face trial on a terrorism charge of helping to kill Americans, was a written memo from the office of then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, instructing Lindh's captors to "take the gloves off" in interrogating him. The memo, signed by Rumsfeld's Defense Department General Counsel William J. Haynes II, does not lay out in detail the specific treatments to which Lindh can be subjected, but appears to simply tell his tormentors that they are free to use harsh measures.
Taken in context with subsequent developments-the torture program developed at Guantanamo, at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, at Abu Ghraib in Iraq, and at various CIA-run black sites around the world, its seems likely that this Rumsfeld office memo, written back in December 2001, in a sense opened the door to the torture of captives with the encouragement of Rumsfeld and the Bush/Cheney administration.
One piece of evidence that the Bush/Cheney administration deliberately ordered the torture of Lindh is how it handled internal objections to that plan. When Justice Department attorney Jesselyn Radack, a specialist in prosecutorial ethics who was involved in the case from the outset, warned prosecutors in the Justice Department's terrorism unit (headed at the time by Michael Chertoff, later to be secretary of the Department of Homeland Security) that Lindh, because he had requested an attorney, could not have evidence used against him at trial that was obtained by questioning done without an attorney present, or even be questioned without an attorney present, she was pushed out of her job at the Justice Department. She was subsequently hounded, threatened and harassed by the Bush Administration, which even sought to have her disbarred.
More evidence of the administration's sordid role in the torture of Lindh is the way he was silenced once his case got into federal court, and after he was sentenced.
Originally, the government's intent was to fly Lindh, a resident of Marin County outside San Francisco, which lies in the most liberal federal court district in the country, to Virginia, where his case would instead be handled by the Fourth Circuit, arguably the most conservative judicial district in the nation. Lindh's case was assigned to Federal District Judge T.S. Ellis, a former Vietnam-era combat pilot and an appointee to the bench of President Ronald Reagan. Attorney General John Ashcroft, who had touted the captured Lindh as "the American Taliban," and Chertoff, both had every expectation that Judge Ellis would be accommodating of their efforts to suppress any evidence of torture in Lindh's case. And they had a report from his FBI interrogator-something called a 302 document--purporting to claim that Lindh had confessed to having been fighting against the Americans and linked to Al Qaeda. This was all they needed, they felt, to get him convicted on the most serious charge of plotting to kill Americans, which would have sent him away for multiple life sentences.
But Judge Ellis, in the early days of pre-trial hearings in June, 1982, surprised prosecutors when he agreed to a request by Lindh's attorneys, a team hired by Lindh's family and led by San Francisco defense attorney James Brosnahan, for an evidenciary hearing at which Lindh would be able to challenge the admission of evidence that he had confessed by introducing evidence that he was being tortured at the time.
This threw the government into a panic. If Lindh brought in witnesses from Guantanamo or from Afghanistan who could testify to his torture-as the judge indicated he would agree to allow him to do--it would expose the administrations's whole secret campaign of torture, just as it was getting going in Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay.
As I wrote in an article in the Nation back in 2005, on the Friday before that evidenciary hearing, which was set for Monday, June 12, 2002, the Justice Department, at the direction of Assistant Attorney General Chertoff himself, offered Lindh's attorneys a one-day-only, take-it-or-leave-it a plea deal. Chertoff (acting with an alacrity that stands in marked contrast to his sluggish response time several years later when faced, as secretary of homeland security, with the Katrina disaster in New Orleans) offered to drop the serious charges of conspiracy to murder Americans, supporting terrorism, and all other more serious charges, in return for a guilty plea to the two most minor charges facing him, but only if-and this is the key-Lindh would cancel the scheduled evidentiary hearing. Under the offered deal, Lindh was also required to sign a letter drawn up by Chertoff's office stating that he had "not been intentionally mistreated" by his American captors, and waiving any right to claim such mistreatment or torture any time in the future. Lindh agreed to this patently false demand, but following sentencing, Chertoff also, for good measure, added a gag order--technically a "special administrative measure"--barring Lindh from even talking about his experience for the duration of his sentence.
Back in June of 2002, torture by US forces was just a faint rumor. Now, with the release of memos by White House and Justice Department lawyers authorizing official torture retroactively and going forward, and with evidence that has shown torture to have been widely practiced on people held in American captivity, it is clear why Chertoff and the Bush/Cheney administration went to such hurried and extraordinary lengths to completely silence Lindh. His wasn't just the first trial in the "War on Terror." Lindh was the first victim whose torture could be shown to have been officially sanctioned.
Whether Lindh was actually an enemy of America, or just a kid who had the misfortune of signing up in August 2001 in the Taliban's fight against various warlords a month before the 9-11 attacks, and who then ended up being out in the bush with America's newest enemy, is certainly open to debate. He has served seven years of a 20-year sentence so far on two minor charges-carrying a weapon and providing assistance to an enemy of the US. What is clear is that any investigation into the history of America's trip into what Vice President Dick Cheney called "the Dark Side" and it's adoption of a program of medieval torture tactics, must include the testimony of John Walker Lindh-one of its first official victims.
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97 Comments so far
Show AllI like the ballad that Steve Earle wrote about Johnnie Walker Lindh. He sung it at the big Sept. 24, 2005 demonstration in DC.
Listen to it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFNTRaXRiI
John Walker Lindh is just one man. What about thousands of others in the same boat as him? Do they not matter? Is it because he ended up being a "celebrity" while others didn't? Even if Lindh makes it through, we still will be watching thousands like him. Perhaps we need to examine our policies that are responsible for the fate of Lindh. Perhaps we should examine our own cultural biases in our country. This article reflects more of an individualist point of view. If the average Joe and Jane six pack were to read this article, they'd simply dismiss it as somehow a "begging letter to rescue a traitor".
People don't like to think or reason here it seems. Except for Thomas More, zmann, Shawn Berry, Nebraska Nathan1, and a few other reasonable moderates that do exist, most people here are always ready to go extreme on anything. If they really cared about John Walker Lindh, they would have fought to abolish or reform the CIA and Lindh wouldn't have been tortured by them to begin with. It appears that being a fringe leftist is called "normal" whereas being moderate and practical along with progressive and liberal doesn't qualify. If Ralph Nader or even Cynthia Mckinney were reading this forum, they'd sure as hell be shaking their heads by now wondering about the deep divisions. This site is great at informing but inspiring and change for the common good have a long ways to go. We need more moderates on this site if we're gonna have the same set of common dreams.
Oh, so many " R e a s o n a b l e _ m o d e r a t e s …"
{sarcasm}
Oh yeah, I can see it
{/sarcasm}
Patriotism is the last refuse, I mean, refuge of scoundrels.
Maxpayne,
Get a life. Go somewhere else and stop bothering people. Sit quietly and think for a few years.
You have to learn to debate well or you're just a sitting coward. I see you were too cowardly to debate my posts. Sure doesn't reflect well on you, now does it? LOL !
Corresponding with you could never be a debate. Merely a waste of time.
Sioux Rose
WAYOUT: I wish I had realized what you did on Sunday!
This guy is his own department of torture. Leave anyone in a room with him and they'd confess to ANYTHING! He's an untapped asset... maybe someone will notice his potential!
Hey, we've been flagged Sioux Rose!
I wonder who did that, and for what demented reason the fool flagged us. I don't think I've been flagged before, I'm so happy.
Sioux Rose
Saturnalia: I didn't even know the threads HAD a page 2 until a few days ago! That's how computer savvy I am. How does one know they are flagged? Someone accused me of flagging them, and I don't even know where to FIND that function; although it's not my M.O. to use it anyway.
These things have a page 2? I'm not sure how to find those. The flagging feature is at the bottom of the post, where you'd hit 'reply' or 'report' if you click report you flag a comment. I think I used it once, some nutter talking about guns and killing someone...
I think minbrain has started to look for a new username, or maybe he's actually had to go to his boss and explain why he's using a dod computer to yak on a 'extreme leftist' website...
How can you tell if you have been flagged?
Where does the "flag" show up?
There's a little trio of options at the bottom of every post. Normally they'll say 'reply' 'edit'(if it's something you said) or 'report this comment' on this thread there's a whole bunch of comments that have changed from 'report' to 'flagged'. Usually the ones that have something bad to say about ole maxie.
Thanks,
It is showing up now. It is too bad that some people abuse the forum. Thank you for all of your worthwhile comments.
And yet you corresponded with him. Why don't you just ignore him if you don't like him? Telling him to go away does nothing to solve the problem other than sweep the problem under the rug.
Well, he does seem to be the sort to enjoy a good flamefest. You're quite right to call that a waste of time and not any sort of debate.
I can see why you're a coward. Obviously, you don't know what you're talking about. Glad I beat you to the punch. Now go back to where you were and YOU get a life.
I think they shold start a program of torturing ALL americans....make it a new reality TV show.. a true cross section of modern America....Like Jerry Springer meets Dick Cheney or Dr. Mengela.(same difference, accept one's a doctor)...
I'd watch and laugh my ass off.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
THAT IS VERY VERY UNPATRIOTIC AND PRO-TERRORIST OF YOU SIR !!! MAY GOD PUNISH YOU !!!!
At first I thought you were just having a bit of trouble expressing yourself. Given your desire to type without thinking, I have to agree with Siouxrose, you're a nut.
A NUT for being VERY PATRIOTIC ? WOW ! I DIDN'T KNOW THAT ! FLAG BURNING and siding with the TALIBAN you call moral ?!?!? I cannot believe this !
The only good flag is a burning flag.
You're not very patriotic. You're a rabid nut.
People who argue that any trial is fair don't understand what your founding fathers had fought for. A free and fair trial implies that all of the evidence is presented in a court of law, where the accused is not presumed Guilty until he/she proves their innocence. Using evidence that came from denying the accused medical care until he/she 'confessed' is barbarism.
The Taliban was a government that was recognised by the usa until bush demanded they hand over bin Ladin without any question. The us gov't never offered any proof that bin Ladin was responsible for wiping his arse with the us flag, let alone the 9/11 terrorist attack. Your country invaded Afghanistan and overthru their government because it asked for proof of wrongdoing! You have the balls to call that MORAL?!?!
Tell me, prior to bush's reign of error, how many us presidents and/or vice presidents advocated the use of torture?
I know a good number of them liked to launch wars of choice, but can't think of one who argued that thumbscrews were good for America.
Now I remember why I chose not to be a far leftist in the end. They're just as nutty as the far right. You perpetual flag burners have no honor. Glad to be a moderated independent. I just found out that I'm a "libertarian" for calling for an abolition of the CIA. Don't go blaming America for invading another nation. Blame the damn pols for pushing it.
From the perspective of a yank, yes I am a 'far leftist'. But in Canada, I'm not. Burning a flag in Canada is not that big of a deal, certainly no insult to the country.
The united states is supposed to be a democracy. That means that the pols are responsible to the people, and that the people are - in the end - responsible for the actions of their pols. Whine and bellyache all you want, but you are all responsible for the actions of the bush regime, just as you're responsible for Obama continuing wars that should have never been started.
Of course, given the fact that barely half of the electorate bother to go to the polls, one can argue that the usa hasn't been a democracy for quite some time.
I wouldn't be talking like that if I were you. Canada's creeping up with conservative leaders and they're not giving up turning into the USA so I'd watch it if I were you.
The conservative leaders of Canada are 'leftists' from the pov of the Republicans in the states.
In Canada we still have the rule of law, I've not done nor said anything for which the gov't can or would arrest me. Are you threatening me? You're certainly ignoring any of the arguements I've made. You, like other repuke trolls, pick out one or two things said by others and attack that while ignoring any arguement or fact that gives lie to your other statements. Behaviour like that calls your sanity into question.
You think I'm a Republican? Dude, you don't know me.
Yes, Max, I do think you're a Republican. I've not heard many people who are democrats argue things like you have done; e.g. "I wouldn't be talking like that if I were you. Canada's creeping up with conservative leaders and they're not giving up turning into the USA so I'd watch it if I were you."
You have also been arguing much like the repukes argue. You'll attack, someone responds, you attack without discussing the major points that the responder mentioned.
Then there's the abundance of flagged posts on this thread. I think you're the one who's flagging everyone who disagrees with you, or calls you a troll. I've never seen a thread with as many flagged comments. True, it might not be yourself who's flagging posts... But I think your screen name is not long for this board, will it be Minpayne next?
I believe you have the right to your opinions, and to express them. That also means that I, and others, have the right to point out that your opinions are flat out wrong/crazy/nuts.
Should you wish not to be seen as a 'moonbat', don't use moonbatty arguements, stop posting cheap slogans, and for the love of god learn what it means to participate in a debate.
Whatever. I could care less that I get banned but if I did, that would show how narrow minded CD really is. You're just a coward sitting in Canada and you wouldn't know anything about American Democrats. Go right ahead and claim that I'm a Republican. You're completely stupid. I can post what I want and if you don't like it, then get lost. If CD wants to ban my account, bring it on.
Nice try
to slip on by
that do or die
hilariously dry
meme of PSYOPS sly
hold tough what CD flys
narrow minded sky in the pie
Who'd thunk blind eyed sty
would question why
Can't you read?
Do you understand what you're reading?
I doubt it.
Is Walker Lindh any relation to Walker Bush?
LOL
No, Johnnie Walker Lindh is no relation to Walker Bush, but Walker Bush certainly drank a lot of Johnnie Walker.
Excellent piece Mr. Lindorff!
Good article Dave. McChrystal was working Afghanistan with one of his earlier TF 6-26 teams when John was "captured". Remember CIA man Johnny Michael Spain? These people were in the employ of McChrystal's ghost units and were in the business of fabricating publicity for Cheney/Rumsfeld in every way imaginable to trump up the brewing Iraq travesty.
There was the New York journalist who was supposedly captured and beheaded who was writing about the truth of what was going on there in the Tora Bora region. Later the highly mobile McChrystal team moved to Iraq and all of the sudden there was Nick Berg beheaded after voicing concerns about the abuses to his father that he observed while working on tall towers with a view of Abu Ghriab; Pat Tillman assassinated with a bullet between the eyes and the body destroyed after voicing concerns about the war, Photo/journalist Mazen Dana shot dead outside Abu Ghriab while filming, the tank attacks on the Palestine Hotel journalists, the Al Jazzerah office bombings, the more than 100 unembedded journalists who were killed on a nearly daily basis...
There is a pattern here fitting the Dick/Don plan for selling the wars Andrew Card style for the sake of Unocal and the Seven Sisters. Stan McChrystal needs to be brought up on charges, and the JWL gag order lifted the and incarceration of JWL ended before they try to kill him again in prison, as they've already tried to do once before.
And there are the detailed statements in the Downing Street memo quoting Bush which confirm that journalists both professional, and situational, like amateurs Berg and Tillman, who were ready to disavow their flag waving patriotism when they saw the truth. All communications were monitored and weak links in the chain of madness both in the ranks of service (as detailed in the "no Blood, no Foul" Human Rights Watch report) were to be forcefully discouraged from talking to the point of murder. Contractor Berg told his father and Tillman stupidly let it be known that he was going to go to Noam Chomsky the first leave he got.
This shit is really, REALLY deep. I can see that you have been targeted as another journalist right here on CD by some cheesedick pansy intelligence operative by the name of MaxPayne to try and shut you up. It won't work and CD should put a stop to that very quickly.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
Siderealm: Nice to see an intelligent post from an informed citizen. Is that Max Pain for real or some kind of troll as I have a hard time believing he is really that politically, sophomoric with his moronic posts!
Sioux Rose
PAUL: He's left so many posts on so many sites that he's obviously a dominator type personality, and I get the feeling he forgets to flush the toilet as a gift for his wife. Actively posting on Sunday, he let the forum know of his job description, and then posting just as vigorously on Monday, he said he took the day off to take his wife to the doctor. However, he's been posting all day off and on, so if his boss should catch him, I hope he gets written up. Unless WE are his business interest.
Nebraska Nathan was sure as hell right about you. You really need to get a life and put your astrology bs away. You're way out of touch.
Sioux Rose
SIDEREAL M: Excellent post. You're one who sees through all the bull shit.
Sioux: Thanks for the encouragement. It is what astrologers are supposed to do...we have a responsibility......And consider this from someone who was at the same place that we are now and lived to tell about it, as there are enormous parallels even to the point of reproducing current rhetorical propaganda. History has handed us all a direct challenge:
"And this Archipelago crisscrossed and patterned that other country within which it was located, like a giant patchwork, cutting into its cities, hovering over its streets. Yet there were many who did not even guess at its presence and many, many others who had heard something vague. And only those who had been there knew the whole truth.
But, as though stricken dumb on the islands of the Archipelago, they kept their silence.
By an unexpected turn of our history, a bit of the truth, an insignificant part of the whole, was allowed out in the open. But those same hands which once screwed tight our handcuffs now hold out their palms in reconciliation: "No, don't! Don't dig up the past! Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye."
But the proverb goes on to say: "Forget the past and you'll lose both eyes."
Decades go by, and the scars and sores of the past are healing over for good. In the course of this period some of the islands of the Archipelago have shuddered and dissolved and the polar sea of oblivion rolls over them. And someday in the future, this Archipelago, its air, and the bones of its inhabitants, frozen in a lens of ice, will be discovered by our descendants like some improbable salamander.
I would not be so bold as to try to write the history of the Archipelago, I have never had the chance to read the documents. And, in fact, will anyone ever have the chance to read them? Those who do not wish to recall have already had enough time --and will have more --to destroy all the documents, down to the very last one.
I have absorbed into myself my own eleven years there not as something shameful nor as a nightmare to be cursed: I have come almost to love that monstrous world, and now, by a happy turn of events, I have been entrusted with many recent reports and letters. So perhaps I shall be able to give some account of the bones and flesh of that salamander --which, incidentally, is still alive."
----from preface, 'Gulag Archipelago', A. I. Solzhenitsyn
If we don't successfully stop them this time around we are doomed. These recent decisions by Obama are truly abysmal and are heel and toe, in lockstep with the Stalinist propaganda line. Obama seems to be channeling the worst of the past and passing it to the world.
We get credit card reform, whoopie. I have been bankrupt for 30 years. WTF??
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
Sioux Rose
SIDEREAL: Quite the lyrical and inspired post. Did I get the sentiment correct that you are also hip to the language that relates the cosmos to affairs here on this earth plane now caught in so many trials as per a number of prophetic sources? This Mercury retrograde has all the markings of a spy thriller written all over it... with tracks set here in our midst.
The Mercury retrograde is illuminating a triple conjunction of Jupiter, Chiron, and Neptune these few days now and will be back over it one more time after the turnaround. A lot of people are getting valuable research insights into the nature of Maya and these are being successfully spread far and wide. It is a good thing that is happening.
MER JUP CHI NEP: Much coherent talking and education. Illusions are explored and studied. Imaginative, fluent orations. Attempting to dissuade while advancing speculations. Speaking incessantly, not permitting interruptions. Fortunate discoveries through imagination. Growing and logically fortifying insight as well as castles in the air.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
Sioux Rose
SIDEREAL: I'm not sure that Jupiter with Neptune both in square to Mercury is elucidating truth, if that's what you mean. More like truthiness, and from my personal experience on these threads in the pass few days, I'd say the BS has seldom been thicker. Perhaps we agree on the interpretation, and if not, I don't always interpret influences the way every other astrologer does. One Taurus one in particular and I clash heads over many. But she thinks Obama is the possible reincarnation of Lincoln, and that just makes me laugh.
Soiux Rose:
There is the additional factor of Chiron which you are ignoring in my post. Chiron is a teacher and a scholar. You are probably operating at the old system level which implies that some harmonic (aspects) connections are "bad" or that others are "good".
Modern harmonic astrology does not distinguish between one quality or contact and another or give them a judgmental stamp of disapproval or approval. The science is much more inclined to look at the individual planets being connected and how they are related. If you want to bring the modern stuff into your perception you might read Ebertin, Witte, Kraft, and my colleagues Al H. Morrison and John Townley who together with me forged new paths during the last century and a half regarding composite charts and harmonic theory. Traditional astrology is passe' and prone to ridicule. Modern astrology sees everything in an individual as if they were naked. There is absolutely no "intuition" involved. It is science and nothing more or less. It is cold, hard, exact science.
Look at my several sites on this and you will gain some new insights on astrology which extend astrology beyond the classical ancient paradigm:
http://transbay.net/~ballgame/
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
For a record of my correct predictions regarding GW Bush and the lead up to the wars and 911 be sure to check out my original blog which was praised by none other than Paul Krugman who used my insights to guide him through the early stages of the Bush Administration before he received the Nobel Prize in Economics. You will find that blog here:
http://www.apollotomorrow.blogspot.com/
In these you will see that I have predicted with great accuracy: earthquakes, 9/11 WTC bombings, the beginning of the Bush wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq, elections, weather, political events and personality, and stated these without reservation for quite some years now at a degree of accuracy exceeding 85% since 1970. I have made a very few mistakes but my analyses of these situations and personalities have been particularly keen and accurate as no other astrologer has even approached.
What is hard for old time astrologers to accept is that astrology is not based upon mysticism but upon science assisted by technology. There are no errors unless one misplaces a decimal point. Astrology is an exact science. It always has been this way with REAL astrologers but unfortunately astrology has been practiced by mumbo jumbo mystics who confuse mysticism with science which is an error and which defiles the science.
In addition if you just Google my name you will begin to be able to see some new ways to look at planets and their interactive relationships with life on earth. I have written one million plus words on the subject on the internet alone.
google: michael jordan astrology.
I have voluminous documentation of my work of alt.astrology and alt.astrology.moderated since 1990. My original work regarding Elian Gonzalez and George W. Bush is particularly revealing of how correctly astrology can flesh out a situation and a personality.
You will not be able to find a more accurate and interesting astrologer anywhere on the planet than myself.
It is just a fact Souix. Serious astrologers have written about my pioneering work in harmonics since 1977. I am prominently mentioned in the "Recent Advances in Natal Astrology" A critical review 1900-1976 compiled by Geoffrey Dean PhD prepared under the ageis of The Astrological Association of Britain and mentioned on page 307 in that work. This is not bs astrology but the real scientific stuff. I have been doing SERIOUS astrology for 40 years. Professionally.
And it is 'siderealm': sidereal realm. Combined.
Go to your library take out the book and begin to learn the real deal.
For a record of my internet work go to alt.astrology and alt.astrology.moderated and you will find decades of my writings on astrology. Along with Michael Rideout, the two of us have put more real astrology on the internet and out into the world than anyone else in this universe we live in.
If you want to learn about astrology just look me up. I have put it all out on the net for 20 years.
Michael Jordan
Astrologers Guild of America
New York, New York.
Specializing in political astrology and investment astrology since 1969.
Lindh's CIA torturer might have the only one brought to (poetic) justice.
Sioux Rose
I just want to thank (and compliment) Dave Lindorff for keeping readers abreast of this story and others. With so few journalists NOT towing the "party line," it takes bravery and integrity to march to that different drummer, the one that moves to the rhythm(s) of Truth.
Lindh has no effect on our daily lives. Never has, never will unless you can prove me wrong.
I will second that!
Thanks, Mr. Lindorff!
The Senate just now voted 90 to 6 not to fund the dismantelment of Guantanamo after FBI Mueller testified that it could be dangerous to have these prisoners in our regular prisons on our land!
After all the money we have spent building isolation cells with all that concrete and we are paying so much for jailers- more than any other country-- SHAME and COWARDS who are affraid of locking up people on out land and keeping Guatanamo going -- I called my Senator and complained-- they are underestimating the voters-- we want Guantanamo closed and all activity at least be legal on our turf.
Good article, David...
The Lindh story draws many connections of the levels of corruption...
And to think... He is an American citizen... What was he doing in Afghanistan anyway...?
Probably some distant relative of George Walker Bush...
Or some CIA special ops dropout like the guy who shot up Virginia Tech...
Or an MKUltra tool like the guys who shot Lennon and Reagan...
As I remember, he was a Muslim convert and he went looking for somewhere to study the faith more deeply. Someone suggested he go to school in the tribal areas of Pakistan or along the Afghan side of the border where the Taliban had their base. The Taliban were, at that time, the recognized government of Afghanistan. He was found with a gun in the company of others and taken into custody. It's unclear whether he was even aware of the American invasion, and very unclear that he was doing anything more than helping his friends (he spoke of being on a "jihad" when he was lying on the ground and being questioned) defend their country from invaders and, as Lindoff suggests, he may not even have been doing that--the jihad could have been his mission to steep himself further in the faith.
Rainborowe
The muslim conversion? Ok and understandable. No problem there. Joining the Taliban? Very bad move and risk getting held accountable by LAW AND ORDER. JWL brought this on himself so LAW AND ORDER will handle it.
LAW AND ORDER
That's a tv show. What happened to JWL had nothing to do with either the traditional concept of 'law' or 'order'. He was tried in the media long before he ever went in front of a judge or jury. No judge (that wanted to be re-elected) would ever have found him not guilty, no jury could have been found that wouldn't have been prejudiced by the pre-'trial' publicity. He was living in a country that didn't have much of a media, there's no evidence that he did as much as shake his fist at any of the invading yanks. The taliban was the gov't of Afghanistan, they didn't launch any attack against the usa, there's also no evidence that JWL had sworn any sort of allegiance to the Taliban. The boy was railroaded from the getgo, torture is/was quite likely.
I'm not referring to the TV show. I am referring to the idea. I gotta admit that while I'm not generally a conservative, I do agree with some law and order to keep some stability in check. That's why I capitalize it. I'll make a note of this.
[the jihad could have been his mission to steep himself further in the faith.]
Yah, but that's the traditional definition of jihad (struggle). For the MSM Jihad only means holy war and suicide bombs...
-his Constitutional right as a US citizen
Well, as Obama supporters don't seem to understand, what is sauce for the goose...
ie, if your beloved leader can break the law on monday, he can break it on tuesday. Still with me?
If he can rip up the constitutional protections for people you don't like, he can rip up the protections for your friends. Still not clear?
If the law forbidding the torture of foreigners is not operative, so is the same law forbidding the torture of you lot.
We teach this concept to pre-schoolers (slight exageration), perhaps Americans should begin some sort of "civics" class in school or something so that citizens are not so clueless when their country slides towards fascism. Trust me, you don't want to learn about fascism the hard way.
The lyin' bastids tell us this is a country of laws not men. When Bush, Cheney, and their entire cabal hang at Nuremberg, there will be justice. Obama is fixin' to join that bunch.
Really well said!
"If he can rip up the constitutional protections for people you don't like, he can rip up the protections for your friends. Still not clear?"
The Constitution was already trashed a long time ago independent of JWL.
Sioux Rose
JLOCKE: Well-said.
Usta be if you were a doofus like Lindh, people would overlook you. Republicans, man!!
As more comes out about the conduct directed by Dubya, Cheney, & Co., it becomes more apparent that they were nothing more than a bad attempt at a banana republic.
The thought that my tax $ went to fund these incompetent fascists is beyond galling!
"...threatened repeatedly with death by his American captives.." should of course read "captors."
Tortured, jailed, abused, disoriented and brought before a kangaroo court and forced to plead guilty to save his life.
All for propaganda: a hero and a villain were needed, and the junta gave us Jessica Lynch and John Lindh.
Free John Walker Lindh. Now.
Thanks, David Lindorff. Never let Lindh be forgotten.
MaxPayne, even your internet pseudonym sounds truly pornographic.
You might not care about who is tortured and for why but that is because you are about as unAmerican (in the true sense of the phrase) as they come. Truly decent Americans don't want a society that uses torture on common criminals, POWs, or non-convicted suspects. We don't want Big Government torture use PERIOD.
Listen pal. I don't like to see them tortured but we ain't got the power to control the fate of John Walker Lindh. Besides, if he had just kept quiet and not gone off being a religious fanatic and gone against the law, he wouldn't have gotten into this mess in the first place. If LAW AND ORDER isn't kind to him, well nothing we can do about it, now can we? There's plenty of enough torture here in this country itself. Take care of that first and then we'll look at all that frivolous torture stuff abroad. Besides, we got the god damn money to bother anyways. As for my internet name, I'm damn proud of it just as your proud of your shitty one as well so shove it buddy.
frivolous torture stuff abroad? crawl back under your rock.
I can't help wondering if you are a bible-belching Christian, maxpayne. Cause if you are, I wonder (but please don't tell me, I don't want to hear any of your sick thoughts and thank goodness I can block myself from reading any of them heretofore . . .) how you reconcile your callous dismissal of 'frivolous torture' with Christ's statement 'that which you do to the least of my brothers you also do unto me'.
We're all in this together, maxpayne, even you. You seem to assume that you are immune from having 'the rule of law and order' set aside for you but nobody knows the turns life can take. We all need to be able to trust law and order and when examples of law and order being subverted by the federal administration. . . . to advance propaganda and illegal agendas. . . . the very best place to start, which is the point of this oclumn, is at the beginning. Lindh was the first torture victim. Let's start with his case. Let's revisit, retroactively apply a better standard of law and order, untangle the web of lies and deeceit and torture and start again. If we allow Lindh's injustice to stand, we are all tainted.
Sioux Rose
TREE FITZ: Well said, but it's like trying to teach a toad the tango.
I have noticed that any post critical of the way MaxPayne treats others has been flagged...?
How about a little LAW AND ORDER for the creeps that established torture policies and the goons who enforced it?
Why do you hate America?
"How about a little LAW AND ORDER for the creeps that established torture policies and the goons who enforced it?"
I'm for that. I thought I made that clear.
If "Squidsworth" Chertoff's deal with Lindh was to cover-up criminal behaviour at the behest of BushCo, THAT in itself, should render this agreement "null and void," and open for investigation.
Like I said on another post on torture, we Americans have enough to worry about. All this "torture stuff" about those foreigners aren't really a high priority. Hey, it's the truth. Besides, I'm pretty sure that LAW AND ORDER will step in and he'll be just fine so I wouldn't worry about it.
Yeah, Lindh is 'just fine' Max. . . after all, what is wrong with him serving twenty years in jail for being a kid in the wrong place at the wrong time? He was a kid, adventuring. There but for the grace of the goddess. . . . .
Lindh isn't a "foreigner"--he's American. And in case you missed any basic lessons on the Constitution, the point of the 5th Ammendment "no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" was to ban torture.
We Americans indeed have plenty to worry about and this is one of them. I've no idea what your last sentence means, but if you think that it's OK to torture people (and at least 20 were killed--murdered--in the process) and not even worry about it, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Rainborowe
He may be American and I have no problem with his converting to Muslim. BUT, when he sides with the Taliban against the US law, then he's overstepping the boundaries and going against the LAW. Hence, LAW AND ORDER will take good care of him. That's where I draw the line.
Maxpayne,
It is obvious that you have seen the evidence in this case, by sitting on 'the' jury at his trial (which was not public), as a peer of another American and are most qualified to state this is a place to "draw the line".
Of course since you viewed the evidence in question you are assured that none of it was tampered with, or could possibly have been fabricated or forged, or for that matter not obtained by any other means than by those same means you would have in YOUR CASE.
Then in the same since I am assured after spending a life time in the USA, that NO ONE in the investigative force, the DOD, would have lied or other wise misrepresented the truth; so as not to be "misunderestimated"---so to speak.
As a "good American" you are assured that this conviction was obtained in a manner in which your own trial should be handled. And so, you MUST be qualified to "draw the line"-------
And I for one will "sleep better" to night knowing that there are MANY "Americans" out there in the "la la land" I call the USA; just like you. None of you will know where I am sleeping of course----.
Good Luck America, you really need it.
Laws are written for the weak and the simple to keep them in line. It looks you're first in line.
Laws are written for the weak and the simple to keep them in line. It looks you're first in line.
When he "sided with the Taliban" the Taliban was the US-recognized government of Afghanistan and he wasn't aware at the time that joining them would IN THE FUTURE be declared "against US law"! The US Constitution, which you seem never to have glanced at, expressly forbids the making of ex-post facto laws--just what you are claiming happened here!
Oh, and one doesn't convert to Muslim, one converts to Islam. A Muslim is a practicioner of Islam; Islam is the faith itself.
Glad you weren't at the Alamo. If you'd been drawing the line there nobody would have been able to cross it until a couple of months after Santa Anna won back Texas for Mexico.
Rainborowe
"Glad you weren't at the Alamo. If you'd been drawing the line there nobody would have been able to cross it until a couple of months after Santa Anna won back Texas for Mexico."
Santa Anna didn't win Texas in the end.
Do, please, pay attention when you read. I thought it was pretty clear by my use of the subjunctive mood ("if you'd," a contraction of "if you had")that I was hypothesizing a condition contrary to fact.
It naturally follows that my conclusion about San Jacinto would also be contrary to fact!
Rainborowe
One of the problems with your post is that you have no idea what you are talking about. One of the major concerns of the prosecution in this case was that the defense had indicated that they could effectively challenge the charge of support for the Taliban. It was easily demonstrated that other groups involved with the Taliban at that time included Telephone Systems International from New Jersey, Unocal Oil, the University of Nebraska, and Laili Helms, niece of former CIA chief Richard Helms,
who acted as a Taliban envoy in the US until September 11, 2001. Lindh was a really small fish whose abuse served only a propaganda function.
Beyond torture, Lindh was being used to establish the precedent of applying the "enemy combatant" label to American citizens.
The arrests and "enemy combatant" designations against Padilla and Hamdi were happening concurrent with Lindh's court appearances. One of the provisions in the plea bargain said this:
“for the rest of the defendant’s natural life, should the Government determine that the defendant has engaged in [proscribed] conduct ... the United States may immediately invoke any right it has at that time to capture and detain the defendant as an unlawful enemy combatant.”
-One of the problems with your post is that you have no idea what you are talking about.
indeed.
-the United States may immediately invoke any right it has at that time to capture and detain the defendant as an unlawful enemy combatant
Yeah as much as I would like to think that I or any other soul would be brave enough to stand against tyranny, I can't blame Lindh for taking the offer. It was either
agree to a long (but finite) prison term, after which he could still be labeled an "enemy combatant" and reincarerated at the wim of the government, despite not being guilty of anything, or ...
stand on principle, and remain in the gulag indefinitely, awaiting perhaps Obama's next try at fabricating a kangaroo court.
Then punish them all. Why isn't the author discussing this so we'd all know?
So if LAW AND ORDER is so important to you, then we need to nail the lawbreakers who created this policy as well as the torturers because torture is AGAINST THE LAW!
You watch too much television, creep.
"You watch too much television, creep."
You wish. You don't really know me too well but no problem. I don't mind.
I question the judgement of anyone who would want to know you well, maxpayne. You are way scary.
When Lindh arrived in Afghanistan, America was not at war with Afghanistan. He got sucked into world events.
He asked to see an attorney and he was mocked. There but for the grace of the goddess go any one of us. That which we do to Lindh can also be done to each and everyone of us. Don't delude yourself. Anyone could hapless stumble into the wrong place and time and we all expect to be afforded our constitutional rights and LIndh was denied them and so long as any Americans think it acceptable to mistreat one of us, we are all at risk.
Why, um, maxpyane, do you come to this sight? are you a paid troll, does someone buy your time to come here?
Wrong. The Taliban in Afghanistan was already engaged in plenty of human rights abuse and Lindh screwed it on himself. He chose to desert his army in the middle of it all and brought the trouble upon himself. And here's the proof that he knowingly sided with the Taliban. Learn to get your facts straight and quit defending criminals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh
John Phillip Walker Lindh (born February 9, 1981) was captured as an enemy combatant during the United States' 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. An American citizen, he is now serving a 20-year prison sentence in connection with his participation in Afghanistan's Taliban army. He was captured during the Battle of Qala-i-Jangi, a violent Taliban prison uprising where American CIA officer Johnny "Mike" Spann was killed.
Lindh received training at Al-Farouq, an alleged Al-Qaeda training camp located in Afghanistan. There, he attended a lecture by Osama bin Laden before the September 11, 2001 terror attacks. Lindh had previously received training with Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, an internationally designated terrorist organization based in Pakistan.
Quoting Wiki as an authoritive source??? Thanks for the laugh clown.