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The Lynch Mob Mentality
If I had the power to have one statement of fact be universally recognized in our political discussions, it would be this one:
The fact that the Government labels Person X a "Terrorist" is not proof that Person X is, in fact, a Terrorist.
That proposition should be intrinsically understood by any American who completed sixth grade civics and was thus taught that a central prong of our political system is that government officials often abuse their power and/or err and therefore must prove accusations to be true (with tested evidence) before they're assumed to be true and the person punished accordingly. In particular, the fact that the U.S. Government, over and over, has falsely accused numerous people of being Terrorists -- only for it to turn out that they did nothing wrong -- by itself should compel a recognition of this truth. But it doesn't.
All throughout the Bush years, no matter what one objected to -- illegal eavesdropping, torture, rendition, indefinite detention, denial of civilian trials -- the response from Bush followers was the same: "But these are Terrorists, and Terrorists have no rights, so who cares what is done to them?" What they actually meant was: "the Government has claimed they are Terrorists," but in their minds, that was the same thing as: "they are Terrorists." They recognized no distinction between "a government accusation" and "unchallengeable truth"; in the authoritarian's mind, by definition, those are synonymous. The whole point of the Bush-era controversies was that -- away from an actual battlefield and where the Constitution applies (on U.S. soil and/or towards American citizens wherever they are) -- the Government should have to demonstrate someone's guilt before it's assumed (e.g., they should have to show probable cause to a court and obtain warrants before eavesdropping; they should have to offer evidence that a person engaged in Terrorism before locking them in a cage, etc.). But to someone who equates unproven government accusations with proof, those processes are entirely unnecessary. Even in the absence of those processes, they already know that these persons are Terrorists. How do they know that? Because the Government said so. Even when it comes to their fellow citizens, that's all the "proof" that is needed.
That authoritarian mentality is stronger than ever now. Why? Because unlike during the Bush years, when it was primarily Republicans willing to blindly trust Government accusations, many Democrats are now willing to do so as well. Just look at the reaction to the Government's recent attempts to assassinate the U.S.-born American citizen and Islamic cleric Anwar al-Awlaki. Up until last November, virtually no Americans had ever even heard of al-Awlaki. But in the past few months, beginning with the Fort Hood shootings, government officials have repeatedly claimed that he's a Terrorist: usually anonymously, with virtually no evidence, and in the face of al-Awlaki's vehement denials but without any opportunity for him to defend himself (because he's in hiding out of fear of being killed by his own Government). The Government can literally just flash someone's face on the TV screen with the word Terrorist over it (as was done with al-Awlaki), and provided the face is nefarious and Muslim-looking enough (basically the same thing), nothing else need be offered.
That's enough for many people -- including many Democrats -- to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is "a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans" (if you can stomach it, read some of these comments -- from Obama defenders at a liberal blog -- with several sounding exactly like Dick Cheney, screeching: "Of course al-Awlaki should be killed without charges; he's a Terrorist who is trying to kill Americans!!!"). Even now, beyond government assertions about his associations, the public knows virtually nothing about al-Awlaki other than the fact that he's a Muslim cleric with a Muslim name dressed in Muslim garb, sitting in a Bad Arab Country expressing anger towards the actions of the U.S. and Israel. But no matter. That's more than enough. They're willing not only to mindlessly embrace the Government's unproven accusation that their fellow citizen is a TERRORIST ("a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans"), but even beyond that, to cheer for his due-process-free execution like drunken fans at a football game. And the same people declare: no civilian trials are necessary for Terrorists (meaning: people accused by the Government of being Terrorists). Even more amazingly, the identities of the other Americans on the hit list aren't even known, but that's OK: they're Terrorists, because the Government said so.
A very long time ago, I would be baffled when I'd read about things like the Salem witch hunts. How could so many people be collectively worked up into that level of irrational frenzy, where they cheered for people's torturous death as "witches" without any real due process or meaningful evidence? But all one has to do is look at our current Terrorism debates and it's easy to see how things like that happen. It's just pure mob mentality: an authority figure appears and affixes a demonizing Other label to someone's forehead, and the adoring crowd -- frothing-at-the-mouth and feeding on each other's hatred, fears and desire to be lead -- demands "justice." I imagine that if one could travel back in time to the Salem era in order to speak with some of those gathered outside an accused witch's home, screaming for her to be burned, the conversation would go something like this:
Mob Participant: Hang the Witch!!! Kill her!!!
Far Left Civil Liberties Extremist-Purist ("FLCLE-P"): How do you know she's a witch?
Mob Participant: Didn't you just hear the government official say so?
FLCLE-P: But don't you want to see real evidence before you assume that's true and call for her death?
Mob Participant: You just heard the evidence! The magistrate said she's a witch!
FLCLE-P: But shouldn't there be a real trial first, with tangible evidence and due process protections, to see if the accusation is actually true?
Mob Participant: A "real" trial? She's a witch! She's trying to curse us and kill us all. She got more than what she deserved. Witches don't have rights!!!
Return to Question 1.
That's essentially how I hear our debates over Terrorism, and how I've heard them for quite some time. And it's how I hear them more loudly now than ever before. And with those deeply confused premises now locked into place on a bipartisan basis ("no trials are needed to determine if someone is a Terrorist because Terrorists don't have rights"), imagine how much louder that will get if there is another successful terrorist attack in the U.S. But in fairness to the 17th Century Puritans, at least the Salem witches received pretenses of due process and even trials (albeit with coerced confessions and speculative hearsay). Even when it comes to our fellow citizens, we don't even bother with those. For us, the mere accusation by our leaders is sufficient: Kill that American Terrorist with a drone!
UPDATE: A long-time, regular commenter here, Jestaplero, is a state prosecutor in New York, and he explains -- in this comment -- how the mentality discussed here can and does easily expand beyond the realm of Terrorism.
Interestingly, even Allahpundit at Michelle Malkin's Hot Air recognizes the serious dangers in allowing the Government to decree even U.S. citizens to be "Terrorists" and then treat them accordingly, with no due process. But note how his right-wing commenters are almost exclusively of the "just-kill-him" school of thought, and how identical they sound to that minority of Daily Kos commenters I linked above who, in their blind loyalty to Obama, also insist that there's nothing wrong with simply snuffing out their lives of their fellow citizens who are "Terrorists" (meaning: anyone their Leader claims is a Terrorist) with no due process or oversight whatsoever. Ultimately, authoritarians are authoritarians, regardless of whether they situate themselves on the left or right.
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183 Comments so far
Show AllInstead of treating "terrorism" as a legitimate phenomenon I'd like to see observers as perceptive as Mr Greenwald recognize that this has been a deliberate creation which takes the place of communism as the biggest bugaboo out there whose existence serves to fuel the fear that justifies the ever-escalating MIC budget and influence.
As a tactic...asymmetrical warfare is as old as mankind. It's current use as propaganda is a brilliant stroke. After all, it's been used in the past 9 years to dismantle the sacrosanct Bill of Rights right out in the open with not a peep from the general populace.
Brilliant.
The use of manufactured boogiemen and divide-and-conquer strategies are some of the oldest practices in large human societies with elites who feel the need to control the masses. Sometimes it is good to step back and dispassionately analyze one's own society to understand how the current elites are using such strategies.
I frequently try to 'blink' myself back in time to imagine how my life as an individual, and a society member, might have been in the very early ages...
then I open my eyes and look out my window at the current world, and think about how we've arrived at this particular, psychotic place...societal control, indeed...
Greenwald is right on as usual.
This same mentality is implemented by the ignorant "people" who write, "Just Nuke the whole Muslim nation."
Susan Collins' recent antics are an equally egregious example of witch hunting. Since Collins is not up for re-election until 2012, it is imperative that her constituents in Maine mount a recall or impeachment effort to rid the Senate of this constitution-abusing excuse of a US Senator.
Collins' vehement campaign to deny an accused criminal of due process would be bad enough if she was not an elected official. A three term US Senator with 35 years of public service behind her needs to be held to a higher standard. Dump her post haste.
If I had the power to have one statement of fact be universally recognized in our political discussions, it would be this one:
The fact that the Government labels Person X a "Terrorist" is not proof that Person X is, in fact, a Terrorist.
------------------
My one statement of fact would be this:
If any political official tells you we should "look forward and not back" they're covering up crimes, violating their oath of office and should be impeached.
Sioux
CYGNUS: Great quote!
Kudos to: Rainborowe, Bgcd, Petrkrp, dus 7
When I began reading today's Greenwald edition, I wrote notes suggesting an analogy between these allegations of guilt and the witch trials of not that long ago. Then, lo and behold, I note that Greenwald develops this same thesis.
Arthur Miller's play, "The Crucible" used the witchhunt spectacle as a metaphor for the McCarthy hearings on "Un-American" activities.
It is utterly amazing how few Americans understand this pattern, and how often it recurs in a variety of societies, whenever small groups intend to seize more power than the electorate would normally allow.
I remember after 911 the authoritarians appeared unfazed by the invasion into their phone conversations. They retorted the glib line that "if one had nothing to hide, s/he should not fear government intrusions." The presumption of course being, the government is always in the right! As if history doesn't present countless spectacles and examples of government dangerously encroaching over the rights of the citizens it theoretically exists to protect!
I think TV has shaped the illusions that pass for opinion today. The constant verbiage of "freedom" versus "terrorist," of "enemy" versus citizen, of winner versus loser, of this team versus that team, of "evil" versus righteous. It's all an elaborate psychic depiction of the Judeo-Christian patriarchal worldview that pits the good against the evil, and presumes that some righteous/rightwing father god will sort it all out. What's important then is being on the "right team."
It took a long time for a historian like David Michael Green to turn off his own team-sport programming and really look the duopoly in the eye to come to the realization that the monster has taken over both presumably opposed political parties. It is very naive to pass off the power of team identification in a society as awash in sports metaphors as ours.
Mr. Greenwald is like a knight fighting the darkest of forces with Truth his shield. Thankfully he rallies for preserving the SACRAMENT (of a just society) that one is presumed INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. I particularly liked his use of this reference, "cheers for his due process-free execution like drunken fans of a football game." Note the way the ersatz worship of sports in our modern day Roman Arena, works so well with the FORMULA of getting the masses to applaud when the next sacrifice is publicly made.
I know there are some in the forum who will deduce that human nature has not evolved one iota over time, and therefore evidence of these primitive responses suggests that a love of destruction is key to the human condition. Once again I wish to say that these responses, stubborn to change as they are, are not a fact of what we are, but rather what most have been conditioned to be... due to their allegiance to the old gods, the rites of patriarchal religion based on punitive us versus them, with us or against us, similar TEAM designations. This, opposed to the greater spiritual realization of the quintessential ONEness, the affinity among living sentient beings, the understanding that we're all in this (life) together, and had better realize that our planet is not unlike a timeshare vacation resort. Since we're karmically bound to return to it, and meet up with many we may have trespassed against it's best to do some of the repair work now... and a lot of it is mending humanity's broken heart. Hatred of other is what wounds the Being most. Hatred is rooted in fear, and the make-war state with its insistence on terrorists everywhere to fear is fueling divisions among persons where none ought to have existed. And for what? To feed the war profiteers and false religious prophets that believers' Bibles duly warned about in THESE times? Wow. It's like sci fi and what we term reality have impossibly merged.
Siouxrose,
Great post. Thank you!
Sioux Rose
GIOVANNA: Given the predilections of human nature, we all have our "favorites" in this forum. Your deeply nuanced, keen grasp of intelligent detail is much appreciated by me! With that being said, for the past few days other posters, distinguished by their evident intelligence--such as RICH M, EPHRAIM, ERROLL--all took time to explain to Shawn Berry the facts of political discourse. He, acting like one of those inanimate objects seen at town fairs... you know the type that rotates back and forth inviting a ball to hit it, and if so, it plunks down only to spring right back to its prior position? That mechanism seems to pretty much symbolize his posture in this forum. He is not here to learn, only to repeat the same tired lines, those which evidently represent the talking points he's been assigned to relate. You can be sure any attempt to enlighten him will be time wasted. If you have the interest or inclination, check the past few days' threads and you will find evidence in support of my observation. Usually one of his buddies will show up to vouchsafe for the integrity of one of their own. Sometimes they take over the direction of a thread's entire discourse. I wonder if their pay includes a provision for returning to further their education, so that at some point they might actually arrive at a unique idea, one with merit worthy of sharing?
Thank you for the personal acknowledgement.
Your lack of compassion for peace is showing. You can count on your "friends" to rush to your defense despite your vulgar talk so of course you'll talk like that. You think that people who don't agree to your twisted thinking can't change? I learned some things from RichM, Ephraim, Erroll, Boyd Collins, teddy, Arry, jlocke, and some others. I agree with some of what they say and disagree on some of what they say. I know. Your buddies will call you the victim and me the big demon as always. No problem. It doesn't occur to you that too much passion causes irrational behavior and that doesn't include using religion or astrology to explain current events. Your own perceived tag teams and the delusion that anyone who isn't talking tough on Obama is a paid troll is blocking your mind. But don't worry. You have company to be your royal goodies. All you can do is sit and talk about end of the world predictions using your twisted views on astrology. When everything is bad, you say "Mars rules" or give some confusing planetory predictions of doom. Did you know that you sound just like the X-tians using religion to explain and control everything? I'm not surprised by your karma curses and putdowns with all your black magic bs. You sound just like those right wing X-tians cursing "God is punishing you !" Please continue your lies and conspiracy theories. You have company with your "passionate" friends because ideological lynching is all you can enjoy. Third parties don't need foul brain supporters like you.
Sioux Rose
The more you post, Shawn, the more your ignorance is on display for all to see. If you had a modicum of humility you might hit the books, beef up your understanding and THEN return to this forum. You are utterly out of your league here, paid or otherwise. Now I am going to hit the ball that knocks your little mannequin-like form into the water. Pow!
Wicked ! So easy for you to type and inflate your ego. For all your time wasted typing black magic, you could spend some time getting schools to block recruitment, teach young students in your area out of war, show your same "passion" to those military recruiters you can't stand, or how about lobbying against war spending. I actually did some of that and with cooperation from people in my community I actually succeeded in reducing recruitment and convincing elected officials to think twice before signing another war bill before reading it You may write a lot of stuff but you don't sound like you have what it takes to be a real hero because you sound like a lonely person who will never get out of her madness. A few others have also asked you to reconsider and there you go again calling them "tag team". I understand. You have a unique way of admitting defeat. The Internet is a perfect place to do verbal lynching so no one gets hurt in the real world. Thanks for the laughs.
I just happened upon this and have to try to urge Shawn not to get so far into the "verbal lynching" thing that he can't find his way back to sanity or at least safe ground. Nobody is verbally lynching you, Shawn. First, that can't happen. It's a mixing of separate mediums. No matter what anyone says here, you aren't being "lynched." Greenwald is writing about something very literal when he say Obama, like Bush before him, has retained the presidential authority to assassinate anyone, including American citizens, that he deems a "terrorist." Of course, the CIA or other "intelligence" agencies would be doing all the deeming, then reporting back to him for clearance.
The implications are dire and horrifying for all real dissenters to imperialism. Since you seem consistently scandalized by what you interpret in here to be "bashing" Obama, comparing us all to Republicans because you can't distinguish between two very different forms of criticism, you should be spared his potential hit squads. But some of us are justifiably paranoid, since our refusal to give Obama the eternal "benefit of the doubt" implies we may eventually be targeted, one way or another. Not because we plan to join al-Qaeda or the Taliban. On the contrary, because we see those fanatical religious orders to be the Mideast equivalent of the Christian fundamentalists here who have an unsavory influence over American politics.
Both fundamentalisms are species of insanity, and Obama is guided by one, the X-ian one. He's guided by it because he subscribes to its tenets and dogmas, even if he isn't nearly as one-dimensional as Bush. That's at least part of the reason you are attacked here so frequently. You don't really comprehend the depth of the Obama problem, so you want to give him slack when he doesn't deserve it, mainly because you're infatuated with him personally. Politics on this scale is about a lot more than superficial personalities, but you don't seem to have evolved beyond that. Obama is better on camera than Nader, so he's obviously the one to get behind. This doesn't even rise to the level of high school politics. I never like saying this but I feel like saying it now: You need to grow up.
I don't know what you're trying to say here but Obama has been in office for only 1 year while Bush for 8. By the way you all are talking like the Republicans, I'm having a hard time understanding if you really are for them or against them. Wouldn't you agree that too much "passion" will sink you to their level? I'm not giving Obama slack. He deserves some credit on a few good things he did that were progressive. I understand that his accomplishments are being overshadowed by his failure on health care, Afghanistan, and the economy. At least Obama was prepared to get his cabinet together to do something fast because he was under pressure. It would have taken Nader and Mckinney months to pull any cabinet together and they would have faced tremendous opposition from Congress, anti-Chavez style talk from the media, and their lives would have been in danger just like FDR's was in 1934. I would like to see Obama undo Bush's policies and am disappointed that he's not trying hard enough but the man has his limitations too you know. If Ralph Nader or Cynthia Mckinney were in office and nothing was accomplished by now, what would you have said?
If Nader and/or Mckinney WERE in the White House, Congress would be on notice that the people have had it with "business as usual," and if they want to get re-elected they had better get with the program.
Gary
“The function of leadership is to produce more leaders, not more followers.”
-- Ralph Nader
Even if either of them were to win, they can't get anything passed unless they have support. I'd like to know why nobody here is preparing for this upcoming midterm election. That's what needs to happen for Congress to be put on notice.
You just admitted what the whole problem here is with you, that you never understand what anyone is saying, consider all our criticism of Obama to be "just like the Republicans," or you're too thick to get past your paper doll comprehension of what's actually going on. If we're "passionate" about any of these issues it means we're exactly like the tea-baggers. How much simpler to just keep saying "at least Obama did this, or at least Obama did that. What would Nader have done?"
You aren't totally stupid but you are extremely limited, but in your mind that means you're more realistic than the rest of us, or whatever you tell yourself. I try to tell you why you're reacting the way you do and you "don't understand" because it's essential for your own psychological security to keep thinking exactly the same way. So, there's no point trying to communicate anything remotely complex to you. There's safety in remaining simple-minded, so stay there.
You know why progressives and liberals lose? They want everything to be as complicated as possible and call people stupid for trying to keep things simple. If you can find a way to take all that complicated talk and make it resonate with us out there, then you win. Until then, simple trumps complicated bs.
If that many Americans are as dim-witted as you, then no progressive issues at all stand a chance. But by all means, keep up that "pressure" on Obama. After all, he's only been a "letdown" so far. You keep up that matchless pressure, and we'll see how far your self-righteous simple-mindedness gets you.
Sioux Rose
EPHRAIM: True belief requires having studied issues to arrive at a position. I am not sure Shawn believes a word of what he says. He is like a windup toy. Whether you, Rich M, Erroll, GW North, Giovanna, or another BRAIN patiently spells it out for him, it's as if the words went right past him. There is never any indication of a thing learned, a viewpoint corrected. It may suggest ignorance, or narcissism (his need for taking up space in a forum of intelligent persons); or he may be paid to essentially act as the human equivalent of PROSAC. 90% of his dialog is offered like a palliative, to suggest things are really OK, and we should trust our government or leaders to work it all out. NO need to be worried (or Goddess forbid, passionate) about anything at all. In other words, day after day as the news of more and more violations of our Constitution and evidence of leaders trespassing upon the established LAW or our land grow, while more and more go hungry, homeless, or jobless... his JOB is to tell us it's really ALL working out fine, just give the establishment/anointed leader a little more time. No matter that in the time granted (and so thoroughly wasted! as in laying all sacred beings, contracts, covenants TO waste) the leaders, entrusted with preserving the welfare of the nation and its people, have already emptied the treasury, built 2 million prison beds, granted themselves impunity for actions that would be seen as illegal and/or criminal in a nation whose laws WERE functioning, had not big money corrupted all the agencies of redress. And Shawn tells us to "don't worry, be happy." Fortunately 90% of posters see through this nonsense.
If he's the best "they" can pay, they ought to upgrade the pay scale and at least get someone from the right who has a university education. Then some in this forum would enjoy a more vigorous volley of ideas.
On the plus side, there is something to learn in everything, and perhaps having this right wing sample in our midst allows us to better hone our own game(s), and argument(s), accordingly.
You need to get in touch with the real world.
I'm only being honest. I wished he could have been better but reality is reality and no black magic can change that.
Shawn, you wrote, "I understand that [Obama's] accomplishments are being overshadowed by his failure on health care, Afghanistan, and the economy."
Your list omits many of Obama's most egregious betrayals of American principles of justice, such as:
1) His promise to protect those who organized and participated in torture under the Bush administration
2) His statement that he reserves the right to keep people imprisoned for life even if they have been tried and acquitted
3) His arrogation of the right to order the assassination of people, including American citizens, merely on the basis of kind of evidence that has repeatedly been shown to be invalid in the past
These acts and statements of Obama's are serious affronts to the American system of democracy and justice, which was explicitly designed to prevent just such abuses of power. I am curious to know why you didn't even mention them.
John, he didn't mention them because that would make everything too complicated. Shawn prefers all these issues kept at a level an 8 year-old can understand in less than 3 minutes.
I'm not aware that he was that bad. I know he didn't change Bush's policies but you sure he's done worse already? I need a link. I'll read this tomorrow morning when I'm a bit sober. Appreciate it.
We've driven Shawn to drink! (A joke, Shawn.)
Shawn:
You can find discussions of the three points I mentioned in past Common Dreams articles, among other places. See, for example, the following articles by Glenn Greenwald:
1) On Obama's promise to protect those who organized and participated in torture under the Bush administration: see
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2010/01/19-2
2) On Obama's statement that he reserves the right to keep people imprisoned for life even if they have been tried and acquitted: see http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/22-5
3) On Obama's arrogation of the right to order the assassination of people, including American citizens, merely on the basis of kind of evidence that has repeatedly been shown to be invalid in the past: see http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/27-9 and http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/02/04-3
Sioux Rose,
Thank you for your kind words. The feeling is mutual.
With regard to your assessment of Mr. Berry, I agree, and would add that his repeated, immature claims of "verbal" persecution suggest a lack of emotional intelligence and more than a hint of classic, attention-seeking behavior and narcissism. I intend to avoid any further dialogue with him, as it is simply a waste of time.
Great ! You and Sioux Rose shall both take the blame for keeping third parties in the dungeons of doom.
"getting the masses to applaud when the next sacrifice is publicly made"
It's very interesting to think of our government's "targeted killing" of its own citizens as a kind of ritual sacrifice - to the god of security, I suppose. Or perhaps it's better thought of as punishment of those who violate our tribe's taboos. In any case, this ongoing descent to barbarism is getting more nauseating all the time.
Sioux Rose
JOHN: Did you ever read the short story, "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson? If not, your post eerily resembles (or should I say evokes?) its dark theme.
Sioux Rose: No, I don't think I've read that story. I'll try to get around to it. Thanks for the reference.
Sioux Rose,
It's funny that you mention "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson, as I was thinking of that story just yesterday when I was mulling over in my head how orthodoxies, traditions, customs, religions, rites, rituals, and propaganda contribute to the effect of "normalizing the unthinkable." To date, I consider "The Lottery" one of the most frightening stories ever written. A must read. Thanks for mentioning it.
Sioux Rose
GIOVANNA: It is an excellent story. There are so many powerful and poignant literary and film efforts done by those who did their utmost to educate humanity so that the awful sins of prejudice coupled with intolerance would never lead to marching armies forcing so many to deal with the unspeakable, time and again.
I bike most evenings as I'm too high-wired to meditate sitting still. The biking is my meditation, and recently it came to me that the work, the GREAT WORK, has never altered from century to century, Master teacher to Master teacher. It comes down to a few simple rules, but look at how those with no interest in following Higher law have instead written volumes on how to skirt liability as per the abuse of their fellow man and woman.
I appreciate your posts very much. You have a fine mind. It is a privilege to converse with you.
I remember The Lottery from high school. I'll bet they don't assign it any more. Late Freud is also horrifying. And Goethe. And Schopenhauer. There is a streak of cruelty in our race. The death penalty is arguably a continuation of human sacrifice, and perhaps war as well. I think the answer to human misery lies in the Jungian cellars of human psychology. As long as we remain repressed and uncurious about the imps that run our lives and (especially) our collective decisions (lynch mobs and vigilantism - my current topic for meditation), we are at the mercy of the man behind the curtain.
From reading Obama's autobiographical book I concluded I could not vote for him. I don't think he is a bad man. He just isn't awake.
Sorry about your antagonist in the above string. Here is what I think about that: Shawn Berry (is that his name?) is entitled to any opinion he may harbor, and to express that to the best of his ability. These forums are not for sissies. It is ok for him to say that your opinion is stupid (or childish or demented). It is not ok to say that YOU are stupid, etc. We should all draw the line there, precisely because if we don't our antagonists will go away and there won't be a forum any more. There is a difference between an adult argument and a parking lot fist fight.
It saddens me to see personal attacks ("people like you..." "stop whining..." "grow up...") appear on this blog (I am not innocent of this myself.) We should defend our points of view intelligently, vehemently, even viciously if necessary. A little attention to syntax and phrasing is all that is necessary to maintain civility.
I suppose the dignified way to deal with posts you perceive to be beneath your maturity level is the same way you deal with people you don't want to talk to at cocktail parties. You excuse yourself and go talk to somebody else.
SIOUX,
An excellent post, as usual!
I clearly remember learning about the "Crucible"/McCarthy connection when I first read that play in junior high Lit class. I was floored, because it had never occurred to my early-teen mind that Miller would have done that. I was already a fan of history at that point (would later major in it in college), and my teacher's assertions of Miller's story-beneath-the-story lit an even bigger fire under me.
And yes . . . sadly . . . next weekend's NFL Stupid Bowl will accentuate the gladiatorial mentality of the American masses. Yay team . . .
Sioux Rose
SEVENTH SON: Thank you for the lovely compliment.
I shudder at the realization that our very own Roman Arena is the top watched program in America. Football IS a religion in the land of the newly imprisoned-free. When I lived in Gainesville, Florida, it was rated the # 1 place to live by "Money Magazine." After a few months in that cultural/spiritual black hole I wrote to Money Magazine begging to differ, and tongue-in-cheek suggesting a lawsuit (for their claim). It was also when the "GATOR" football team was #1 in the nation.
I did relate this once before in the forum, but I will repeat myself in case you missed it. By virtue of my mystical leanings, and background as an English teacher I am very sensitive to cues, symbols, and omens. As it turned out I had to return a rental car during the most pagan of weekend rituals, their notorious "Gator Growl." The entire downtown celebrates in loyal displays to football heroes, some of which were rendered into large effigies. Since gator is taken to mean alligator, these were serpentine totems that had a truly demonic look to them. And I thought, wow, here's this born again Christian town with a church on EVERY block, worshipping these reptilian creatures and celebrating the raw brute aggressive force they represent. "Let there be no other idols before me," style. Not.
I used to refer to most who lived in Gainesville as "Gator Christians," so aggressive that they'd almost push you off the road in their efforts to get to the next stop light first. NEVER had I encountered people with less sensitivity.
And I must make one more anecdotal point. I was invited to lecture for "The Whole Life Expo" in Fort Lauderdale, April, 2000. Deepak Chopra was the main event and I got to attend his lecture. So many signed up that a retractable door had to be drawn back to double the space in the lecture room. He started to speak about the variance in human sensibilities (and related sensitivity), and he mentioned a sociological field test where the observer counted the number of times people touched during a conversation. The inference being that the more tactile the nature of a conversation, the more warm and emotional it was apt to be. In any case, of ALL the examples Deepak could no doubt pull out of his cognitive hat, he mentioned that HIGHEST on the list was Puerto Rico (where I have lived, and it is indeed a very warm and emotional culture), and the LEAST (tactile and emotive) was Gainesville, Florida! Boy, talk about having my own impressions vindicated! My friends who still lived in the Florida Keys laughed out loud with me at the specific places mentioned to drive the speaker's point home.
Christianity is a repressive force that is truly suspect towards sensuality, sexuality, pleasure, and contact with nature (along with the natural self). Its belief in sin has wounded generations of persons, left many with severe sexual perversions, others incapable of sexual pleasure, and then there are the serial killers. Not all come from this background, but I would bet a majority of dysfunctions arise from this, along with the legacy of parents tainted by the same toxic brew. "Don't get dirty!" And an antithetical relationship begins between the self/child and the natural world. Is it any wonder the body of the Great Goddess/Gaia is littered with toxic debris? (I could go deeper into this analogy, but I'll quit here.)The taboos had led to a massive pathology that exalts force, the natural extension of which (after football) IS the military.
Sioux Rose: Poignant, insightful, and the plain truth of the matter.
As always, words of wisdom, par eloquence!
Sioux Rose
PEACEMAN: People like you, Arry, 7th Son make it MY PLEASURE to post in this forum. And it's always deeply appreciated when a few play champion when my words are taken out of context and maligned to fit the psychological parameters of the spiritually and intellectually blind. This has been quite a thread! I need to bike ride! Funny enough, when I'm out in the woods with the spirits of the trees, new insights come to me. Often they are intended for the forum. So glad some appreciate the efforts! As I do those of others who share their knowledge and experience with grace and intellectual astuteness.
Sioux Rose
Thank you for your many thoughtful and articulate posts, of which this is one. Your view of the culture of sports in our society is on target, IMO. (Of course, we are speaking of the term "sports" in its current usage and manifestation, not of "games", prevalent in all societies.)
I believe the obsession with spectator sports blending into CMSM "news" and other aspects of culture (all blending into each other) creates an *assumption* underlying discussion and is one of the reasons it is so difficult talk with those of basically hard-wired "win-lose" mentalities. How can it be countered?
The win-lose, our team, us-them, "fan" viewpoint (continually reinforced by propaganda) is deadly to the perception of nuances, and nuances are the elements of growth and life (not to mention beauty.) It is also necessary to perceive them in order to survive, and blindness to nuance is the clearest indication that our culture is a culture of death. (This can easily be translated into the terms you use.)
Each element or nuance resonates with all others and that resonance is the basis of the oneness of which you speak.
On a lighter note...Thanks for the image of Shawn as he has been a minor little burr in my brain, kind of like those that get on your clothes that you can't seem to brush off. Your image did the trick. (Sorry, Shawn, but you may learn some things, but you ignore the most important ones...time and again. That's what is frustrating and why Sioux Rose's image is apt.)
I'm not frustrated at all. We just agree to disagree but some have unique ways of doing it. If this kind of "passion" and cartoony fairy spell ideaology is the spokeswoman for Ralph Nader and Green Party, then it's obvious why they're at where they're at. I will give Sioux Rose the blame, err credit, for keeping Ralph Nader and the Green Party stuck in the dungeons of doom. I tried to bail them out but her black magic was too much to help so they lost more support.
Shawn -- You misunderstood. I'm the one that's frustrated...with you! That means I do care to some extent.
Sioux Rose is not a "spokeswoman" for the Green Party. Neither am I a spokesman. We just discuss things that we think are important and that we are passionate about.
RichM asked you a pertinent question. Why don't you feel about Obama as you undoubtedly did about Bush? They have pretty much the same policies, although Obama is taking us into realms of authoritarianism that were only fears under Bush.
You ignore vital questions like that and come back every time as if the question wasn't asked. That's the pop-up doll thing.
Sioux Rose writes intelligent, thoughtful posts from a great heart. It is obvious to anyone who has been following CD comments for awhile. To call it "black magic" is ignorance of the basest sort. You need education badly. That's the bottom line, I'm sorry to say. Things aren't just a matter of "opinions." You don't have to go to college. You just have to shut off the damn television and read.
Obama has been in office for only 1 year compared to Bush's 8 years so I'm not prepared to be as angry at Obama as I was at Bush. Maybe in 2012 depending upon how worse it gets I might. I share your concern about Obama's failure to undo most of Bush's policies but it could have been worse with Mccain. Just reading these paranoia comments, I can't tell the difference between right wing NRA hacks and "passionate progressives" sharing their authoritarian language.
You can speak for Sioux Rose if you share her violent "passion" and you have lots of company here so don't let me stop you there. I don't believe in using religion or astrology to justify current events. If you want to join the loudmouths shouting "God is punishing you !", "Mars Rules!", or karma cursing, be my guest but third parties don't need that kind of support.
>>third parties don't need that kind of support.<<
Oh ho, so now YOU are a spokesman for "third parties." How'd you get the appointment?
Gary
“It became apparent that there is a lot of passion and emotion behind this issue. It is what we think is right and needed to be done.”
-- Mark Klein
If I were a spokesman for third parties, I guess they'd be winning by now but I'm not cut out for being a party spokesman.
You are what, twelve years old?
Sioux Rose
ARRY: I appreciate the praise, and if there is a way to transcend the winner/loser paradigm, then my lifework--which a study of the "as above, so below" Divine equation--may present it. For one thing, it is a decided challenge to the authoritarian premise that ONE way is the RIGHT way. The Zodiac starts from the premise that there are 12 counter-balancing perspectives, each right for the tasks individuals are born to fulfill (or work on). The circle has no sides. And it's inherent relationships are based on sacred geometry. The Star of David, for example, with its overlay of two equilateral triangles represents the natural harmonic bonding between the 3 earth signs (Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn) with their compatible water element complements (Cancer, Pisces, Scorpio). And the 2nd set include the 3 air signs, Gemini/Libra/Aquarius as they harmoniousy interface or interact with the 3 fire signs: Aries, Leo, Sag.
Few in this forum appreciate the fact that astrologers were among the first heretics and are still MUCH hated by the church. WE present a voice of LOGIC that's based on a view that does not lend all credence or authority to ONE father figure. I suppose I react when people in this forum reflect that old, and quite ancient castigation. In my 30 plus years in this field, I have won over MANY skeptics, because upon examination, the truth speaks for itself. And it is a truth that goes way beyond sun sign designations alone. That's the generic version most take for astrology, as it's printed for public consumption.
The winner/loser paradigm fits the metrics of Mars, the warrior. When language, culture, and experience are framed along those lines, Mars wins and continues to rule. I will continue to speak for the wisdom of the circle, where diverse voices are welcome. Just as Light represents a compilation of the vibration emitted by numerous colors (or waves of light), human life is also a rainbow where each must be free to express.
Thank you for responding to my post as I recognize you as a fellow deep thinker. And I'm glad I provided a useful image regarding a certain narcissist.
If any of you have time, you should check out the "magna carta"
It was a big deal in 1215 and established some baseline "rights". Your American constitution was built on it. As I understand it, the magna carta stopped the king from doing things like desappearing people into that era's version of CIA black sites, and prevented the king from unilaterally giving his guards "specific permission" to kill individual citizens without first having a trial.
So, like I said, you might want to look into it.
Actually, the Magna Carta didn't establish any laws. The rights that King John was forced to put his name to were (and had been for hundreds of years) recognized all over England. John certainly knew this because his father, Henry II, was known as the "Father of the English Common Law"--not because he invented the laws but because he codified the administration of the (until then, often unwritten but always acknowledged) laws so that the process of justice was the same all over England--hence "common" to the whole kingdom. The laws themselves had been observed by Angles and Saxons, Jutes and Norsemen, Norman-French and also by the original Celts and Romano-Celts. The system of administration differed because these different people settled in different places and developed their own traditions of administration or brought them with them--or both.
The Barons were simply rubbing John's nose in the laws, so to speak--especially those laws that related to their privileges.
-"The rights that King John was forced to put his name to were (and had been for hundreds of years) recognized all over England"
Interesting. Even better, thanks.
What I was trying to articulate (and will try again!) was that American law has degraded down below the point that existed at the time of the magna carta. Now I suppose the modern day "barons" of wall street that run the Dems and Repubs are not any worse off than those that existed in those days but clearly the vast majority of Americans and other human beings cannot claim to enjoy the US constitution's protections.