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TechnoratiIt Couldn't Happen Here. Could It?
PARIS--Most Americans don't care what happens in France. But the oldest country in "Old Europe" remains the Western world's intellectual capital and one of its primary originators of political trends. (Google "May+1968+Sorbonne.")
The French are reacting to a situation almost identical to ours--economic collapse, government impotence, corporate corruption--by turning hard left. National strikes and massive demonstrations are occurring every few weeks. How far left? This far: the late president François Mitterand's Socialist Party, the rough equivalent of America's Greens, is considered too conservative to solve the economic crisis.
A new poll by the Parisian daily Libération finds 53 percent of French voters (68 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds) favoring "radical social change." Fifty-seven percent want France to insulate itself from the global economic system. Does this mean revolution? It's certainly possible. Or maybe counter-revolution: Jean-Marie Le Pen's nativist (some would say neofascist) National Front is also picking up points.
One thing is certain: French politics are even more volatile than the financial markets these days. In yet another indication of How Far Left?, the Communist-aligned CGT labor union is on the defensive for not being militant enough. "We're not going to put out the blazing fires [of the economic crisis]," the CGT's secretary general said, trying to seize the initiative by calling for another strike on February 18th. "We're going to fan them."
Two new entities, a Left Party (PG) umbrella organization trying to unify opposition to the conservative government of President Nicolas Sarkozy (who'd be to the left of Obama in the U.S.) and the New Anticapitalist Party (NPA), have seized the popular imagination. The NPA claims to have registered more than 9000 "militants" willing to use violent force to overthrow the government if given the word.
"Only combat pays," read a banner at the NPA's first convention.
Communism is dead, most pundits--the mainstream, stupid ones anyway--have been telling us since the USSR shut down in 1991. As it turns out, the libertarians were wrong. Half-right, anyway: Human nature may be inherently individualistic, as free market capitalists claim, but it's also inherently social. When economies boom, most people are sufficiently satisfied to leave well enough alone. Who cares if my boss gets paid 100 times more than I do? I'm doing OK. As resources become scarce, however, we huddle together for protection. The sight of a small rich elite hoarding all the goodies violates our primal sense of fairness.
"In Soviet times," a man in present-day Tajikistan told me, "we lived worse than we do today. But we were all the same. Now we live a bit better, but we have to watch rich assholes pass us in their Benzes." Which would he choose? No hesitation: "Soviet times."
In America, a French cliché goes, people are afraid of the government. In France, the government is afraid of the people. With good reason, too: the French have overthrown their governments dozens of times since the Revolution of 1789. The French are hard wired with class consciousness. Strikes, demonstrations and general hell-raising are festive occasions. Only when things spin totally out of control--as when Muslim youths rioted in the suburbs of Paris and other cities--are conservatives like Sarkozy able to make headway.
Riots over police brutality by disenfranchised minorities make the French nervous. But contempt for American-style "harsh capitalism," where citizens pay $800 a month for healthcare and write nary a letter to their local newspaper to complain, is 100 percent mainstream. The French don't think they should have to suffer just because some greedy bankers went on a looting spree.
Even Sarkozy is getting the message. "We don't want a European May '68 in the middle of Christmas," he warned his ministers in December. He shelved proposals to loosen regulation of business. Arnaud Lagardère, CEO of the Lagardère Group, told the financial daily Les Echos: "We're seeing, in renewed form, the most debatable aspects of Anglo-Saxon capitalism called into question."
The French and Americans face similar problems. But their temperamental differences lead them to different conclusions. An average working-class Frenchman possesses a deeper understanding of economics, politics, history and economics than most college professors in the U.S. Go to a bar or café, and sports will be on the television--but not on people's lips. They're talking politics and how to force their leaders to protect their quality of life.
Americans, on the other hand, don't expect direct help from their government. They're giving Barack Obama time to see whether his economic recovery program will work. It won't, of course; economists say so. But indolent hopefulness is less work than chucking Molotov cocktails.
Back in France, the NPA sets off rhetorical bombs Americans wouldn't dream of. "We're not a boutique party out to get votes, or an institutional mainstream party, but a party of militants," says the NPA's leader to the Le Monde newspaper. "We're real leftists, not official leftists." The NPA is currently negotiating a temporary alliance of convenience with the Communists.
A communist revolution in western Europe would be greeted by curiosity and derision in the U.S. state-controlled media. But if such a social upheaval were to protect French living standards from a global Depression spinning out of control, it might also prove inspiring to increasingly desperate Americans.
74 Comments so far
Show AllWhat I have observed from the comments I've read so far is a missing ingredient - the lack of religious propaganda in the everyday Frenchpersons' life.
I had the pleasure of "hanging out" with a visting French woman - over the course of several days. What she found most interesting - and hilarious - about Americans (besides myself) are the TV promotions (i.e. Pat Robertson's 700 Club) for and about religion. These are things that the people of France are not subjected to.
and maybe that's a good reason likely that more of them are able to actually THINK compared to americans.
theinitiate
All righty then... I am speechless. This is pretty much what I thought the manifestation of Pluto in Capricorn would bring. Now, I was hoping that things could be worked out... That people would see the rewards of transforming a me-me-me- culture. The negative expressions of Capricorn-hierarchical authority system, wanting to controlEVERTHING- POWER MONGERING(ALONG WITH SCORPIO) RIGIDITY, HYPOCRACY, MATERIALISM...NEED I GO ON... Now, please do not take this as a personality description for individuals born with the sun in Capricorn. We are talki' the pure capricorn energy here. The positive would be MANAGING THE MATERIAL WORLD TO THE MOST POSITIVE BENEFIT FOR THE MOST PEOPLE.
So, Pluto, is the great leveler, transformer. All any one has to do is look these description up in any Astrology book... not written now, but hundreds of years ago. The fact that these descriptions were given then and we can see the energies at work now... goes to show that there is a connection FROM US TO THE UNIVERSE WHICH MANY SEEM TO BE IN DENIAL ABOUT. no, I don't know what exactly this means. I just know that it's there.
What I can say is that in my opinion, we need to find a way to lessen our impact on the earth. If that means going backward in relation to our everyday way of life then so be it. Of course, i don't see us doing that by choice and no it would do no good for some kind of forcing of the issue...So the result will be that the earth will eventually enforce this necessity. We have COMPLETELY MISMANAGED OUR EART;
"They're giving Barack Obama time to see whether his economic recovery program will work. It won't, of course; economists say so."
A really good article Ted, but you seem to forget that it was economists who said we could relax regulations of the financial system. Just because they say something---doesn't make it so...
I question Ted Rall's sources for the following, inflammatory, quotes:
"'Only combat pays,' read a banner at the NPA's first convention."
"The NPA claims to have registered more than 9000 "militants" willing to use violent force to overthrow the government if given the word."
As far as I am concerned, they both smell of gross mistranslation. Open calls for armed struggle are illegal in France, and no organization calling for such action could be anything but clandestine. There is an ongoing controversy regarding the pronouncements of former hard-left Action Directe terrorist Jean-Marc Rouillan, who has joined the NPA. As to NPA founder Besancenot, here is what he had to say about armed struggle a couple of months ago (http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/pour-besancenot-la-revolution-ce-n-est-pas-le-terrorisme_58...):
"La LCR a toujours toujours dénoncé les méthodes d'action directe", "la révolution pour moi ce n'est pas le terrorisme, ça ne l'a jamais été", a réaffirmé le porte-parole de la LCR sur France Inter.
TR:"The Revolutionary Communist League has always denounced the methods used by Action Directe," says RCL's spokesman, reasserting his position [in an interview on radio station] France-Inter. "To me, revolution has never been a terroristic enterprise, and never has been."
So you read me, Ted. Show me your primary sources. Then I'll decide what to think about your breathless reporting on the emergence of a legal French political party openly committed to armed struggle.
The media helps keep Americans docile by constantly depicting the two parties as being the same.
If you watch the corporate media, you'll see that they initially try to make the Republicans look good and the Democrats look bad. I would cite the lead-up to the Iraq invasion as proof. The liberal side of the question was simply dropped.
Similarly, the Republicans stole two successive Presidential elections--an act which would probably have instigated civil war in France or any other nation with a pulse. But thanks to the media, this little tidbit is barely mentioned, even by the most leftist authors. People still talk about why Bush won and why he beat Kerry--when of course, he did nothing of the sort. We just had another election in which the Republicans cheated their heads off, probably stealing a good half of Obama's victory.
By rights, Republicans and Democrats should be fighting in the streets. And yet we're still treating them as our friends and neighbors. It doesn't get much more dumbed-down than that.
Needless to say, the corporate media can't always make the Republicans look good, and when this happens, they do everything they can to make the parties look the same. This is the corporate meme, repeated by people from all sides of the political spectrum.
Since the most cursory glance at the Democrats and Republicans reveals them to be as different as night and day, it's a tribute to the right-wing media that this concept continues to rule our political discourse. Not a day goes by at Alternet without someone repeating this nonsensical belief--just as if it were the cleverest idea in the world and not a carefully-inculcated right-wing belief.
With our perceptions so profoundly distorted, we are all essentially batting for the Republicans. Small wonder the republic is on its knees.
8 Years without a Leader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA8WVHm-CcA
This needs to be said more often,
"the Republicans stole two successive Presidential elections--an act which would probably have instigated civil war in France or any other nation with a pulse. But thanks to the media, this little tidbit is barely mentioned, even by the most leftist authors. People still talk about why Bush won and why he beat Kerry--when of course, he did nothing of the sort."
"the Republicans stole two successive Presidential elections--an act which would probably have instigated civil war in France or any other nation with a pulse. But thanks to the media, this little tidbit is barely mentioned, even by the most leftist authors. People still talk about why Bush won and why he beat Kerry--when of course, he did nothing of the sort.
"the Republicans stole two successive Presidential elections--an act which would probably have instigated civil war in France or any other nation with a pulse. But thanks to the media, this little tidbit is barely mentioned, even by the most leftist authors. People still talk about why Bush won and why he beat Kerry--when of course, he did nothing of the sort."
When we all stood by and let Shrub and Darth Cheney speak before hand picked crowds, when we allowed people who were only wearing T-shirts stating their opposition be ejected without a peep, when we allowed ourselves to be herded into "free speech" zones miles away from targets, we forfeited our right to free speech by non-action. We are no longer citizens, but sightseers along for the ride.
Bush and Cheney should have been AFRAID to be seen in public.
Hector -- I enjoy all my time in France, and I wish the French well, but in what sense is France "the Western world's intellectual capital"; in what sense did "May+1968+Sorbonne" begin a trend; and by what survey was it found that "An average working-class Frenchman possesses a deeper understanding of economics, politics, history and economics than most college professors in the U.S."? The fact that in "a bar or café . . . They're talking politics and how to force their leaders to protect their quality of life" is not evidence of the depth of the "average working-class Frenchman"'s understanding of economics, politics, or history.
actually -- this is probably correct...that the french in general are better or more deeply involved in politics and economics than americans are.
why?
that fact that in a "bar or cafe....they ARE talking politics and how to force their leaders to protect their quality of life"
IS evidence of this very thing.
what DO americans GENERALLY DO? they sit around the cafe talking about ..........the latest divorce by some popular figure?........how the "left and right wing of the same WAR party" - democrats and republicans -- are talking about "what's in it for me" as americans whether it's their precious measly tax cuts that are blown in one week on an outing ? THIS is their "politics?".
no - the french have a more fundamental and detailed understanding .
the fact that they "talk" about it as a MATTER of COURSE SHARPENS their faculties as CIVIC minded people, in contrast to the americans who are DULL concerning politics ...but SHARP when it comes to things they CALL "politics" which are really just what their own leaders and industries FEED THEM, PRECISELY because they are INFERIOR in their assessment of political life .
if anything -- there IS a reason why the french or europeans in general LOOK DOWN on american's habit of glorifying "ANTI INTELLECTUALISM" glorifying DUMBNESS as somehow some evidence of being "one of the team".....
and THAT is a reason why the ended up having an IDIOT LIKE george bush!
what the LEADERS are generally are a reflection of the cultural and intellectual capacity in general of the population as a whole.
OTHERWISE -- long ago -- RALPH NADER would have been president BY a LANDSLIDE SIMPLY because he existed! IF americans REALLY are THAT sophisticated in "politics and economics"....
on the contrary -- they have generally shown a capacity for having a BELOW average political and social , civics and economic and historical awareness -- that what they PRODUCED as a nation -- as a RESULT of their collective inferiority in intellectual terms, despite the "prosperity" brought about by their Masters in corporations whose "methods" are now imploding apart from being the SOURCE of global economic downturn for the USA's militaristic impositions behind it --
are precisely what the FRENCH have said SHOULD NEVER have been done!
I am very often in France. Although any individual experience cannot be termed representative, I very often have highly political conversations with people who are taxi-drivers or shop assistants etc., i.e. the mainstream.
Contrary to that, it is surprisingly difficult to talk about politcs with many Americans (I am also frequently in America), at least outside NYC. Many people - I mean MANY!! - are shockingly uniformed and repeat sound-bites they have heard some place but never checked for veracity.
This inane claim, heard so many times, that the UN is trying to be a world government is one of the most glaring and most stupid examples; or that the government is out to rob you is another one of these moron statements that are only true if you are a billionaire and don't want to contribute to society.
Plus: Many people might actually be informed about politics but seem to be too afraid to discuss politics. It often seems to me that many Americans believe that they are "free" because they are allowed to own guns and run around with them. But when it comes to actual political action or even talking about burning social issues, Americans often come across as if they lived in a dictatorship: Most are horrible cowards and don't dare discuss politics. Which leaves you with a lot of smalltalk in situations in the US where in similar situations in France, we like to devise a new world order in casual conversations. Guess which I find more interesting.
Political discussions as often as possible also with people you disagree with are an important source of one's own political education, I find.
And, yes, it's basically only some US university professors one runs into who have some knowledge and occasionally are willing to engage in a meaningful discussion. But quite frankly, that's too few for an entire country and it reminds me of feudal times in Europe when only the aristocracy was educated and spoke its mind.
BUT: For all their protests and willingness to go on strike - BTW, the French word "militant" simply means "activist", okay? - and their beloved image as "frondeurs" - the ones with the slingshot, literally - the non-confrontational ways of European nations further up north with MUCH stronger labour union membership (ridiculously low in France!!) and functioning industrial relations have very often provided better social policies and more general welfare than they have in France.
So ostentatious French activism should not be confused with efficient activism.
Don't forget about sports. Americans LOVE to talk about sports . . . ad nauseum.
Now....about the Cowboy's......................
Unlike the French, we Americans only protest matters of great import - like gay marriage, and abortion, and... er... gay marriage...
Oh, and once upon a time, we stood up against the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation - twice, actually. But when that proved to be a total waste of time, we collectively said f**k it, we're helpless, go ahead, kill 'em all and take all of our money, too.
The United States of Whatever, Dude...
In France, protests and strikes are daily occurrences. I have been on trains that stopped mid-track to strike (not even in the station). In the US, we protest so politely -- we go out of our way to make sure that we don't disturb or disrupt anything. We think the symbolism of our action will get us results -- and it never does. God forbid anyone be inconvenienced or lose any money! In France, when the ambulance drivers went on strike, they parked all of their ambulances up and down the street in front of the ministry of health, and just left. Shut the whole street down. When the truck drivers went on strike, they parked their big rigs all along the borders and left them -- nothing could get in or out. This went on for at least a week if I remember. I have seen the whole public transportation system shut down in one of the largest cities in the world -- for weeks! And they always get results. But it has to hurt a little -- power does not concede anything if it doesn't have to.
ABSOLUTELY brilliant statement~!
"POWER NEVER ABDICATES".
"Let them march all they want, as long as they continue to pay their taxes."
Alexander Haig, U.S. Secretary of State, June 12, 1982.
France has done so many things right in recent years. It can largely feed itself, has a stable population, and it has achieved much better energy independence than other industrialized countries through nuclear power. It has single payer universal medical care, and has maintained good trade balances from exports of everything from aircraft and automobiles to pharmaceuticals to fashion and wine. Somehow it has protected itself better than America from the low cost goods streaming out of Asia. Even with its short work week. One would think France would be one of the least effected and one of the first countries to rebound from the recession. In many ways its a model for the future.
And don't forget that the wine, cheese, and bread are excellent.
Please don't remind me about the bread....! But everyone knows French wines can't compare with Texas wines (big smile)
Viva La France!
Viva indeed!
Lalo, Patagonia
Americans go through life with the silly idea that wealth is a sign of intelligence and/or superior morality, an unfortunate misconception derived from the pilgrims. Thus, no matter how thoroughly they are robbed by moneyed elites, the Yanks continue to believe and even have faith in the people who just picked their pockets. Holding such a belief for four hundred years makes it true. The more the rich take from Americans, the dumber they get. Unlike the French, who think and argue before doing anything, Americans simply hold fast to comfortable ideas and stable old relationships. Should a real revolutionary try to lead Americans toward a real change, they would kill him out of fear of that change. The French can inspire and lead all they want, but in America they will go down with the ship. "Stay the course!" as some appropriately looney ex-president once said.
Gee if the French are so revolutionary and anti government why did they "elect" a zionist shill (and quite possibly according to Le Figaro a Mossad asset) as their president especially after his rabid taunting of Arab youth in the Third World slums that ring Paris.
Perhaps they need their Bourgeois masters as much as they need paving stones to hurl at Le Flic. Striking, marching and rioting is as French as baguette.
Onward thru the hubris with Cap'n Oh Bama aka Al Jolson our first Zionist Power Configuration prezident!
the sarcasm about the french voting a rightwinger sarkozy doesn't really explain the fact that the DOWNTURN had ALREADY begun when the french in small amounts continued to Open SOME of their economic methods to the "american style globalization" when THAT "washington consensus" was at its peak and deemed so powerful that ALL nations MUST adapt!
and then when the effects started to come in - the downturns - that was EASY for the rightwingers to come in as an alternative.
AND YET -- as QUICKLY as the french "voted" sarkozy into power --
they are ALSO QUICK in TAKING ACTION AGAINST sarkozy to CORRECT HIM!!
do americans do THAT? noooooooo....they go about their "own ways" being more frantic about their next "tax cut"....and avoiding to "rock the boat" and think this is being "civil"....
furhtermore -- whatever sarkozy's limitations are -- in terms of politics and economics -- DESPITE HIS attempts to "copy" or "apply" the "american corporate model" (such as his failed attempt to CUT pensions, or failed attempt to CUT education and teacher and school funding, or his failed attempt to increase working hours, or failed attempt to make teenagers ineligible for union membership) -- compared to the "liberal obama" or "liberal clintons" -- he is to the LEFT of these USA politicians!!!
can you believe that?
where sarkozy is a to the LEFT of the USA -- in france he is as FAR RIGHT as you can GET in their politics!
even the COMMUNIST PARTY in france , active, legal, and influential is NOT even considered "PROGRESSIVE OR LEFT ENOUGH" by the general french public, regardless of whether THAT public supports this party!
you can instantly see the WIDE - FAR BROADER range of thought among the french in comparison with the SO_CALLED
"RUGGED individualistic American" -- who , in a general sense, actually behaves like a CLONE of a corporatocratic culture taht is represented by a S0-called "left and right" wing of the SAME war and corporatocratic BACKWARD thinking rightwing political entity called
"the united states of america".
it's so laughable if it weren't so frightening and tragic in its consequences to america and the world.
Coincidence that the right-wing, Bush lovin' guy who was gung ho to go after Iran got elected in France's first election with electronic voting?
I really think we dodged some major bullets thanks to the hard work of activists and some upper military brass in Bush's 2nd term.
Don't forget the Rainbow Warrior!
Pancho-Just gotta get that skin color thing in, huh?
Obama
Al Jolsen
Uncle Tom?
Yeah, Nader calls Obama Uncle Tom. On Fox News,
And THIS is Progressive Consciousness? No it's not.
Sounds more like illiterate rednecks guffawing over their "suds" and n***** jokes.
Leave skin color out of it, if you are intellectually capable of framing your ideas on a more elevated plane.
Or Don't. azjoe.
azjoe, I don't have the time, or the desire, to follow your "more elevated plane" around today.
But I'll re-post this comment for your benefit, in case you missed or ignored the previous one:
"On Fox (News), I said that as the first African American president we wish him (Barack Obama) well. The question is, will he be Uncle Sam for the people or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations which are driving America into the ground."
Ralph Nader in Hail to the Chief of Staff by Alexander Cockburn - November 7, 2008 http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11072008.html
And I suggest that you read Black Agenda Report: The journal of African American political thought and action http://www.blackagendareport.com/
It's Da Jooooooozzz!
I have to agree with you, Pancho, and I actually live in France. Ted Rall's vision of French radical intellectuals debating in cafés is a bit romantic and dated. While it is true that the populace fiercely defends the social protection they have the moment they feel it is threatened, it is practically the ONLY thing that will bring "average people" into the streets. Indeed, when it comes to global foreign policy issues, the Spanish, the Italians, the Germans, and even the British seem to me more aware and better mobilized. And it is especially in the area of world-class radical intellectuals that France is most sorely wanting at present, in great contrast to its justly hallowed traditions. Especially since the death of radical sociologist Pierre Bourdieu, the field has been absolutely barren in recent years and, what's worse, dominated by three very Zionist sort of Franco-neocon "thinkers," Bernard-Henry Lévy, Alain Finkelkraut, and André Glucksmann, the latter a reformed '60s radical, and some of their intellectual cohort, which includes Pascal Bruckner, Max Gallo, and a few others, all of whom get a great deal of media and press coverage. There is no one on the horizon even remotely of the intellectual or moral statue of a Sartre or Camus, or even a Foucault or Deleuze. In this respect the U.S. at the moment, though perhaps not for long, presents a much richer field of contestatory leftist thought, with such people as Noam Chomsky, Immanuel Wallerstein, youngsters like Naomi Klein and numerous others providing far more threnchant analysis of our failing system(s) than anyone here in France. So throttling is French mainstream discourse, in fact, that one dare not even openly question the official U.S. govt. version of the events of 9/11. When actor and comic Jean-Luc Bigard did just that a few months back, he was universally pilloried, likened to a Holocaust denier, and forced to publicly recant, as in some sort of grotesque replay of a Stalin-era show trial. It was pitiful and shameful for a country with France's history of philosophical rebellion. Here's to hoping that the new formations of the left bear rich fruit and that groups like José Bové's antiglobalist green movement and Olivier Besancenot's Trostkyist party help them to form some sort of new coalition well to the left of the sellout Socialist Party, but I'm skeptical, especially in the absence of any profound intellectual base. Pauvre France! Ou' sont les neiges d'antan?
Sioux Rose
CLOVIS: Thank you for your post, quite an education! (I knew little of these goings on.)
Clovis,
AH! I wondered if you might have some French connection (pardon the pun) with your name and all. I was a history major at university, and I have always enjoyed the Merovingian dynasty. So much so in fact (and this is slightly off the topic) that I chose Clovis as the name of one of my handles when playing online trivia games in local bars. My log-in password includes the year of Clovis I's death.
Cheers!
I read in the Guardian the other day that French debt now totals 70 per cent of French GDP and it's mostly due to the "social protection's" you mention . Is that true do you know?
I'm not too sure as to the numbers, but it's true that France has the biggest debt in Europe (though it's still peanuts, percentagewise, compared to the U.S. debt). I do know that French neoliberals love to blame this debt on the social welfare system, but it's for this very reason that it bears comparision to the debt of the U.S., where one has none of the social protection of the French, and the government welfare goes almost entirely to the corporate and military worlds. In any case, much of the job protection the French working class long enjoyed is now gone, or reserved only for the powerful "elite" labor unions, like the railway workers and state employees (who also enjoy a pretty good program of perks in the U.S.).
Greece, belgium and italy all have higher debt as percentage of GDP. As does Japan yet Japan does not have anywheres near the level of Social programs as does the Government of France.
Sweden on the other hand has the highest level of Social Prorgams in the world relatively speaking yet have a LOWER debt then most nations including the USA.
One also has to consider how debt measured. The CIA as example has this nasty habit of NOT counting the debt "owed to ourselves" in the United States, yet counts the same as debt in other nations.
Much the same is true of measuring unemployment rates between countries. When One country counts anyone out of work as unemployed and another excludes "discouraged workers" because they have not found a job in 6 months, you can not reliably use the official numbers to measure the success of a given countries economic policy.
Our government numbers are not reliable as you say. You really have to dig it out.
How does anyone calculate a savings rate if you don't include 401K's?
"Sweden on the other hand has the highest level of Social Prorgams in the world relatively speaking yet have a LOWER debt then most nations including the USA."
Ha! After this year will anyone have a higher debt ratio than the US? No matter how you measure it?
>>Ha! After this year will anyone have a higher debt ratio than the US? No matter how you measure it?
Zimbabwe. IF you are...lucky.
Pk
I don't think we are that lucky!
Thanks very much. Most odf the time the Guardian is right, but you never know.
I've got to check what you said about our's though, I don't think our debt is even close to that percentage of our GDP......of course our GDP is going to be down for a few years too I expect so it will be higher.
Just checked it and its close to 70% though in the last minute it may have gone over it. (lol)
But with the new spending bill, I'm sure we'll owe more than France...lucky us!
Had any experience with the health care system there?
The health-care system here is excellent, if a bit understaffed in the province where I live (but this was also the case in upstate NY, where I lived before I left). The payment one makes into the system shifts annually depending one's income of the previous year. Even before I had coverage here, I paid less for medication than I did in the U.S. WITH coverage. Yes, you heard right. I paid more in the U.S., with my Blue Cross/Blue Shield individual coverage, than I paid here without coverage, and that's not even counting the steep price of the BC/BS coverage. That of course was why people were trying to have medications brought in from Canada before El Busho put a stop to it.
As for debt, the U.S. is light years ahead of everyone in the world, both percentagewise and gross.
"Yes, you heard right. I paid more in the U.S., with my Blue Cross/Blue Shield individual coverage, than I paid here without coverage, and that's not even counting the steep price of the BC/BS coverage."
Of that I have no doubt. Our Health Care system is the best in the world, any countries doctors will bear me out on this....if you can afford it. And I don't mean the typical BC/BS coverage...which is better than lots have.
Believe me, I love my country, but I'm well aware of our real faults and this is in the top three. Its shameful to pay so much for so little and make folks without insurance use emergency rooms. Idiotic system.
Single Payer is what we need, Canada has it, its shameful our citizens don't. I'm told nby Doctor's in town that they consider the French system to be the best. I don't know how it differs forom Canada's, but we should steal the best from everyone in formulating a system in my view.
Thanks!
as for "best health care system in the world" that needs to be examined closely :
it should be said more properly as "best health care" MINUS SYSTEM...since the SYSTEM DOESN"T deliver if you can't afford the "best health care in the world".
one might as well apply the same reasoning - twisted as it is from Madeleine Albright:
:"WHAT GOOD is our having the greatest and best MILITARY in the world if you CAN"T USE IT?"
same here with the so-called "best health care SYSTEM in the world"........
WHAT GOOD IS IT for a SOCIETY if "you can't use it" because that SYSTEM is designed to RESERVE ITSELF for "those that can afford?"
it is the same as the TRUTH in saying:
WHAT GOOD is a fancy car - a rolls royce, a bugatti, an aston martin -- to the ordinary person who can't drive or own it ANYWAY because his wages in a year aren't even half of the car's price?
all it is good for , then, in SOCIETAL terms as a SYSTEM is
"it's GOOD for LOOKING AT" from the OUTSIDE!
and what YOU HAVE is a "system for the rich" and "all others can just pay taxes because -- as the american marie-antoinette Leon Helmsley would say.,,,just as corporations and the "system" for the rich would say behind closed doors -- ONLY THE POOR pay taxes".
THAT"S what the USA "best health care system in the world" REALLY is about.
to the society that collectively is taxed in various hidden and masked ways OTHER than "declarative" taxes (meaning, the people are taxed by OTHER means: such as CUTS in services, POOR service, RATIONING by insurance, etc.) -- it is USELESS!
in that sense -- it is a BAD system. it is only good for its "technology" for those that can afford - a pitiful small number --
while the rest in the tens of millions can "eat cake".....as marie-antoinette would say.........
and we KNOW what the FRENCH DID to HER and her husband and fellow rich folks.........
americans on the other hand -- SWALLOW what the rich GIVE THEM as crumbs. and then they say THANK YOU because it wasn't exactly FEWER crumbs than they feared.......
Best in the world -- if you can afford it? Think about that for a second...
Lived in France for a while -- the health care was amazing. We have been hard wired not just to be passive about our politics, but what we expect from health care. The French could not understand my gut instinct to deprive myself from care -- to wait until I was seriously ill to seek any help, to refuse to go to the doctor on Saturday, or whatever. I felt like I had to apologize when I called my son's pediatrician and he answered the phone -- I thought I must have called the wrong number (yes - most doctors operated without any support staff - they set their own appointments, come to your house, etc.) And they all thought I was crazy when my son was born prematurely and spent a month in the NICU and I kept asking everyone how much it cost. First, they couldn't even begin to comprehend why I would even want to know such a thing (hospital is free - just plain free, no one pays -- there is never even a bill. It is just there -- no one talks about costs - ever.) But the fact that I was thinking of that while my newborn was fighting for his life made me pretty much the loser mother of the year in their eyes. Crazy ricains -- that's what they call us (short for Americains).
"Best in the world -- if you can afford it? Think about that for a second..."
I'll stand by that statement. But you are entirely correct! Thats why we have to change. Its absurd to deny American citizens what French citizens get at a lower cost. And we don't even all get it at the higher cost while they all get it at a lower cost...........Its like the Three Stooges are in charge of our Health Care.
And on some things they are right! C-R-A-Z-Y!
"Our Health Care system is the best in the world, any countries doctors will bear me out on this....if you can afford it."
Well, that's a load of crap, and doctors in other countries know it. Most doctors in this country know it. Maybe if you're a member of Congress or a major CEO you have access to good care, but scarcely anyone else does. Where have you been? Working for some HMO? What do you think all the raging debate over health care has been about for 25 years? To insure that we keep having access the best care in the world? Most Americans think of doctors as just another type of businessman, in it for profit and perks, almost totally manipulated by Big Pharma and barely ever concerned about patients' real needs. We need a single-payer system because we have LOUSY heath care. Wake up, Sir Thomas.
Don't you guys read a posting before replying? Read it again before you start replying.
I thought it was very clear, "if you can afford it." If I have the money, I can buy the best care in the world and I don't have to be a CEO, Congressman...just rich.
Wake up and read before replying.
It's not even "the best in the world" if you can afford it. That's what I meant. Many other countries have better doctors, more state-of-the-art equipment, and provide better care. Mexico is notorious for having better dentists. Cuba's doctors have far better training than America's, and provide care for next to nothing because they're supported by the government.
Sioux Rose
EPHRAIM: I was living in Ojai, California in 2002 and a guy I met said he was going down to Tijuana for dental care. I thought he was joking. He showed me a brochure and I figured I'd take a drive down, visit my sister in La Jolla, leave the car parked on the US side of the border and give it a shot. My parameters began with "would it be clean," and would it use purified water.
When I got there the waiting room was full and the woman who processed my credit card told me most of their clients were Americans, they even had a few fly in from Hawaii! What impressed me besides the purified water and cleanliness of the little clinic was that the dentist went right to the tooth bothering me without any X-rays. I had 2 gold caps at the time, and these had to come out; but I had those 2 replaced and 4 new caps for a total of a little over $1000. In the U.S. many of my friends pay almost that amount for ONE cap!
I went to an American dental hygienist who complimented the skilled craftsmanship of my new caps. And in 2004 on the way back from Asia (through L.A.) I figured I'd get a few more caps done. They were decent enough to tell me they recommended periodontal on that area first...
If Homeland Security didn't make a big deal these days about border crossings, I'd consider going back for that, too. And when I lived in Singapore, there were all kinds of ads for plastic surgery (I'm not ready for it now, but I'd consider it up the road) in Thailand for a lot less money than would be typical in the U.S.
Now that makes more sense. But I'll still say I'm correct and would point out that many people come here for treatment that copuld go anywhere. But I an referring to the elite. We won't see it.
About Cuba I don't have a clue.....haven't been there, what I read doesn't say there training is better, most counteries send Dr.s here for training. but you may be right.
It depends where you train, where you do your residency. your fellowship..etc. etc. But on the whole the United States has some the most highly trained physicians in the world. Our son is a second year med. student at Chapel Hill and he was very selective (fortunate to be so) about what school he attended in the pursuit of his MD. Considering this I may be somewhat biased.
We have always been fortunate to have excellent health coverage and my family experience regarding the delivery of health services in the United States has been with out question excellent. I would think that the system needs correcting with regards to access but once accessed is as good as or better than any other in the world. But this is only the Gilbert families (my families) personal experience with the health care system in the United States. Perhaps we could say it is the best system (or one of the best) in the world if one is fortunate enough to have the coverage to afford it?
Well, there you are then. If you have great access and always have had to the very best health care, what is there to complain about? Everything's excellent and what's all the fuss about? All those people whining about no health insurance, terrible care when you do get it, unaffordable treatment, waiting endlessly and filling out countless forms--what's wrong with them? Why don't they have flawless care like the rest of the one percent of us? Good heavens, what a lot of carpers and complainers!
Ephraim,
"Well, there you are then. If you have great access and always have had to the very best health care, what is there to complain about?"
Exactly that was the point I was attempting to make by sharing my families experience with the medical system. It is subjective. I agree with you in that there should be a single payer system in place. As the comments here show there are many models of such in the world that provide excellent health care. I was born and raised in Montreal so single payer systems are normal health care delivery systems in my experience. Canada has an excellent system but in certain regions there are problems due to physician shortages resulting in long waiting times for many procedures. The physician training model in Canada is identical to that in the United States.
"but we should steal the best from everyone"
the American way?
(I'm sure that's not what you meant . . .)
(I'm sure that's not what you meant . . .)
Thanks for the break!!!! I should have said "copy" or "borrow".......that was asking for it (lol)
It cannot happen here, as Mr. Rall observed -
"An average working-class Frenchman possesses a deeper understanding of economics, politics, history and economics than most college professors in the U.S."
We have been "dumbed down" to the point that we not only accept, we defend
a one-party political system owned and controlled by the elite with two wings that vary only in rhetoric and style, not in substance
a corporate controlled media insuring the dialogue is kept within limits that do not threaten the elites while keeping us divided and distracted
a two tiered education system that maintains the status of the elites, who do not need to think, and does not teach the rest of us to think
a national exceptionalism that causes us to cheer even when we know that our policies are killing women and children (or even fellow Americans)
a political socialization that leads each of us to believe that we can become a member of the elite if only we work hard enough and that when we don't, it is our fault
Unless and until we can at least question our condition, our fate is sealed.
Each of us should read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn.
They hate us because of our freedom! Right, and I have this bridge....
Very well put! Call me your soul-sista...
Wake. Up. And. Rise. Up.
"An average working-class Frenchman possesses a deeper understanding of economics, politics, history and economics than most college professors in the U.S."
So very true! (Even more true of high school teachers. I know--I work with them.) "Indolent hopefulness" is far more widespread in this country than true critical thinking. Because of that, I would expect follow-the-leader fascism in the US long before we'd see anything like genuine socialism. Indeed, I'd expect to see total collapse and chaos long before socialism, too.
But there's a more fundamental point that shouldn't be lost here. The author hopes that French living standards can be protected from a larger, global Depression. That's just not possible, no matter how much leftism any given country manages to institute. The reasons are twofold: First, the world economy is too integrated for total go-it-alone; and second, we've already overshot the Earth's carrying capacity for industrial humanity, so we'll all be facing the day of reckoning for that very soon (if not already).
Human Being February 14th, 2009 11:36 am, I agree, and I'd add that I've talked to Swedes, Germans and Italians as well who are much more politically well-versed than the average American, even about US politics and history!
It's true that France cannot be protected from the global economic collapse now in progress, but they may very well lead the way in attenuating some of the more egregious suffering.
I don't know what French law says, but I'd bet Sarkozy doesn't last out the year as president and, as an aside, I think the spoiled Saudi Royal Family will be hastily absconding from Riyadh very soon with whatever they can have carried by their personal attendants. The poverty-stricken natives are even more restless than the Europeans these days.
One thing: Most of America has been asleep for forty years, letting the corrupt oligarchs of the Party of Nixon steal our money and rights, but I think that's coming to an end with our incipient 21st century 'Greatest Depression.' As Admiral Yamamoto supposedly said after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941, "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." It seems the last eight years of Emperor Junior has done the same to most Americans. They may not be pouring into the streets in protest yet, but I have seen the quiet seething rage as the country falls apart around us.
Our American ideals are what keep us divided and, hence, so easily oppressed. Rugged individualism, the pressure to be "self-sufficient", independent, etc. I don't think I had ever even heard the word "solidarity" until I was in college. And the word that has completely disappeared from our lexicon? EQUALITY.
In France, their motto: Liberty, equality, fraternity
The US: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (read wealth/property)
funeocons February 14th, 2009 6:29 pm, but it did say in the US Constitution that 'all men are created equal' albeit many of the signers were only thinking of landed white men at the time. Also, the Marquis de Lafayette, who fought in our Continental Army, was instrumental in bringing revolution to France.
Ironically, the French Revolution was a product of Tom Paine's 'The Rights of Man,' an advocate for freedom and self-rule who was nearly forgotten in the country he helped found after the American Revolution succeeded.
right-o on that last point. whatever happens in france, neither they nor anyone else will be able to insulate themselves from their neighbors.
It goes without saying that the standard of living that we have achieved in the north is not sustainable, but health care is a service, above all. Cuba has a great system and virtually no money. As long as we are here, we can choose how to be with one another. It doesn't have to cost any more than we want it to. Money is a social construct -- there are many other forms of economy and ways of being with each other. There are many societies that work together in cooperation for the good of the community -- they do not seek to get "ahead" of one another, or be the top/best/richest, etc. These are the ones who will survive.
Everything that you can touch, see, and feel is real. Money, net-worth, these are not real. We made them up -- and we can do away with them if we choose. We shall see how long we seek to protect these "assets" at the expense of real human lives and well-being.
Damned cheese-eating surrender monkeys. (I couldn't resist!) Who's passive now? Where is the American Bastille Day? But what can you expect from a populace so ignorant that 40 percent don't believe in evolution? What is this "believe" white man?
That's right! If 40% of populace does not beleive in evolution it follows that 100% of the same populace cannot accept revolution. It also follows that that kind of ignorance is the first line of defence for ruling class. It finally follows that it is high time for us, this site included, stop bashing American people and start organizing!
I am very please to find that rumors about death of Marxism and Communism, propagated by media and academic whores turned out to be a bit premature.
v.purto
So right. When the fascist neocons stole the election(s), installed their pretzel-eating chimp, shredded our constitution, lied us into aggressive wars, and then robbed us blind on their way out the door -- did you notice any major resistance? Americans are the biggest surrender monkeys of them all!
this is correct.
the irony here is -- americans are actually positioned, if they so wished to control their politicans and industries rather than the other way around BECAUSE americans are much more prosperous than other nations and REALLY have more room in which to "move".
they do NOT have the excuse of , say, a poor 3rd world nation where people are literally reduced in great percentages of the population (due to the capitalist impositions rooted in america) to merely trying to survive from day to day. and YET people in those nations WILL TRY their best under the much more dire circumstances to act .
americans are too TIMID...inspite of their rhetoric and blather about "rugged individualism", "courage", and heavens....their propensity for physical violence as a mark of "macho"...with a complete lack of judgment about the true price of such behavior.
The US is the most medicated nation on earth, with over 100 million Prozac-like prescriptions filled in 2007. We are not the emotionally and morally intact nation that we were in 1968. There could very well be no revolution. We are all too accustomed to our own enslavement. The FEMA camps and 1,000,000+ plastic coffins already operational and purchased await us. The corporate media says "hooray" to this. Who needs security or money with purchasing power when the government is here to "help"? Why ask why?
***
911 was an inside job. Cheney suspended the Constitution via the imposition of Continuity of Government on 911. Congress has been denied access to the COG details. COG is martial law. http://prisonplanet.tv/alex_jones_live.html
Sioux Rose
DEREK: My understanding was 20-25 million Americans are on anti-depressants. Did you mean # of times those same persons had drugs filled, or number of patients prescribed them? 100 million would be steep for the latter. (What is your source?)
Ms Rose:
I don't have a text source for that. I "heard" that number. I did a quick web search for "americans on antidepressants" and found these two links. I think your number is pretty accurate.
"According to Channel NBC4 in Virginia, 37 percent of American women aged 18-44 have been prescribed antidepressants."
http://media.www.thechannelsonline.com/media/storage/paper669/news/2008/02/13/Opinion/GlobalAmericans....
"I am thinking of the Medicated Americans, those 11 percent of women and 5 percent of men who are taking antidepressants.. The little pill could be any one of 30 available drugs used as antidepressants—such as Prozac or Zoloft or Paxil or Celexa or Lexapro or Luvox or Buspar or Nardil or Elavil or Sinequan or Pamelor or Serzone or Desyrel or Norpramin or Tofranil or Adapin or Vivactil or Ludiomil or Endep or Parnate or Remeron....A study of antidepressant use in private health insurance plans by the New England Research Institute found that 43 percent of those who had been prescribed antidepressants had no psychiatric diagnosis or any mental health care beyond the prescription of the drug."
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-medicated-americans
I think Zoloft is the "soma" of our age. I do hope people can break free of their chains enough to feel some outrage. We'll need as inspired and righteous an indignation as possible to thwart this globalist/banker takeover of our nation.
Peace
Check out Alex Jones' radio show for Feb 10-13 -- daily he's interviewing state representatives who have introduced Tenth Amendment Resolutions demanding that the federal government follow the Constitution.
***
911 was an inside job. Cheney suspended the Constitution via the imposition of Continuity of Government on 911. Congress has been denied access to the COG details. COG is martial law. http://prisonplanet.tv/alex_jones_live.html
"FDA Approves New Depressant Drug for the Annoyingly Cheerful"
. . . complements of the satirical mastery of The Onion:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/fda_approves_depressant_drug_for?utm_source=a-section
Seventhson -- I've got tears running down my cheeks after watching that news piece and some others at the site.
What's freaking me out is the thought that the Onion could be facilitating people's detachment and alienation. I didn't check enough of the site out to see what its underlying politics might be. Murdoch didn't buy these guys out, too, did he?
In any event, where the hell is the Onion getting the money for such a production value? I mean it looks better than CNN -- suits, jingles, graphics, stats, interviews, totally professional.
There should be a whole cable channel dedicated to satirizing Wall Street, Kissinger, the Rothschilds, and everything else pushed by the corporate state to destroy the decency and quality of human life...
a repost of mine from yesterday, sorry to be redundant, but some info bears repeating...
http://www.endthefed.us/
http://www.restoretherepublic.com/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/
http://www.rockcreekfreepress.com/ : "Wall Street Bailout Exceeds Cost of All US Wars Combined - And you can throw in the New Deal, Marshall Plan and Moon Shots as well. Casey Research, of Vermont, has analyzed the costs of the government bailouts of the housing crisis, the credit crisis and others and has concluded that the total is $8.5 trillion, which is more than the cost of all US wars, the Louisiana Purchase, the New Deal, the Marshall Plan and the NASA Space Program combined. According to CRS, the Congressional Research Service, all major US wars (including such events as the American Revolution, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, the invasion of Panama, the Kosovo War and numerous other small conflicts), cost a total of $7.5 trillion in inflation-adjusted 2008 dollars."
I am active with End The Fed organizing. I distribute 100 copies of The Creek and Alex Jones movies each month. The CFR, Trilateral Commission, Kissinger, etc. have been on record WANTING what is now happening to the USA for decades. Wake up. $1Billion of the GM bailout is going toward relocating GM plants to Brazil. Over 2500 TRILLION $ of fraudulent derivatives have been created since Clinton and Gramm repealed government regulations (per the request of the Fed, Citi, JP Morgan, BofA, etc) in 1999. No amount of money will fix this problem. Wall Street is a 100 pound tick on a 10 pound dog.
The elite agenda is to destroy the middle class and perpetuate their oligarchical international reign in perpetuity. These are the same folks who financed the slaughter of 200 million people during the past century. If we allow it the worst is yet to come. Expect mass slaughter in the US. If you think Mao's 80 million deaths can't happen here, think again.
Check out Sherrif Mack http://www.sheriffmack.com/index.php/books-by-richard-mack -- we must remind our county sherrifs to uphold the constitution. Constitutionally, the sherrif is the highest authority in any jurisdiction, and can stop a bank foreclosure or the suspension of civil liberties by the Feds if he or she determines it is the right thing to do. Los Angeles county, where I am, just told Schwarzenegger that no sales tax revenue would be forthcoming if the State refuses to uphold its end of the financial bargain. We need to take control of our local governments.
This week New Hampshire is proposing to reaffirm its sovereignity and its right to armed rebellion against a tyrannical federal government. 28 other states are considering similar legislation.
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2009/HCR0006.html
This is gut check time folks. Store up on food, water, precious metals, tradable commodities, firearms, and accurate intel. Unplug your teevees and unsubscribe to cable. The media is there to sleepwalk us into our own enslavement. Obama is a brilliant facelift for the same agenda Bush was carrying out. Obama's first job after lawschool was with Kissinger and Associates, and he and his wife are closely aligned with the Annenberg Foundation that financed the Weathermen created to delegitimize the student protests of the 60s. It takes more than the appearance of being genuine to serve the public interest. All that glitters is not gold. The banksters all have foundation fronts underwriting NPR. Be wary of them all.
Bush reauthorized the national state of emergency for the 8th year in a row since 9/11 in August 2008. Congress has not once reviewed or approved this action which by law it is supposed to do every 6 months. Obama is doing nothing to undo this, or the creep of the unitary executive, which enables government to continue to disregard the constitution.