I wonder whether we'll have to pursue Cheney, Bush & al to Paraguay? I heard recently that Bush has bought a huge tract of land there. Reminds me of Martin Bormann & the heirs of I.G. Farben.

Marjorie Cohn writes "Why is Cheney so sanguine about admitting he is a war criminal? Because he's confident that either President Bush will preemptively pardon him or President-elect Obama won't prosecute him."

Not only would that be illegal, as Cohn says, that would amount to suicide for any decent impulse in the Obama administration and for the safety of our country. Cheney is very special, but he is just one man within a vast supportive system. He is provides a living illustration of the teflon that will protect those powerful men and a few women who plan to continue breaking the law.

Despite the Bush / Cheney record, 46% of voters still went Republican. Many top elected Democrats have also "gone Republican" on issue after issue for 8 years, in addition to the disastrous the de-regulation that started with Reagan and continued under Clinton. The last several decades in the US have been characterized by failure to use common sense and failure to abide by basic laws of the modern world. We have invaded country after country that had not attacked us. We have tried to destroy and undermine the UN rather than helping it to be better. We do not sign treaties for the environment, against cluster bombs, for world court, etc. We have allowed our jobs to be shipped abroad to people working in substandard conditions, and in many cases have rewarded the companies that do so.

Most of us have lapsed into moral torpor while those energetic crazy old rich white men have gone to town.

I agree that Cheney's current arrogance means he feels immune from prosecution.

In addition I strongly suspect that he and his posse do not plan to step down, but plan to continue from behind the scenes scheming and undermining everything in our country on issues ranging from wildlife to torture, from war contracts to banking fraud, from union busting to domestic "containment" camps. If nobody stops them, they will continue and get much worse. After bringing the country to further ruin, they will then be able to point to Obama and take over the government with every shred of opposition destroyed.

People with a low level of morality and a habit of doing whatever they please understand only consequences. They must be brought to justice. Now. You can see what evil they can accomplish in 30 or 60 days. How long will they be allowed to operate without being stopped?

It is not a waste of time. If we don't insist on the rule of law, everything else will soon become a calamity the likes of which the world has never seen.

Joe

Despite the best efforts of several fascists who are promoting doing nothing and wringing thir hands about how impotent they are, the bottom line remains the same: Either you put these monsters in the docket in The Hague--where the Bosnian butchers were small potatoes compared to these guys, or

YOU deserve to be in that docket.

I find it really morally repulsive how no one in the US is ever responsible for anything wrong that he or she does, or which is done in his or her name.

Fairies and pixies and duendes are running the place, spying on each other, murdering more than a million Iraquis, countless Afghanis, bailing out their buddies and telling everybody else to bend over and take it.

We can do something about this mess. It will take time, but it can be done. However, we need to get our power back to control what is happening in Congress: http://www.thoughts.com/RedNeckPossie/blog/a-way-to-give-power-back-to-the-people-184665/

There is considerabledoubt that Obama will act. But there areforces in Congress and the grass roots that may be able to force action.

As for Bush issuing pardons. Pardons present several problems.
1. To accept a pardon one tacitly admits guilt.
2. Once pardone, the person would have to testify. S/he can no longer invoke the Fifth Amendment as s/he can no longer incriminate her/himself.
3. Pardons would not be recognized by the International Criminal Court. Once pardoned, a person could not safely travel to any country which might arrest by claiming universal jurisdiction.

So there is hope, but Obama will have to be pushed.

Bring America Back !!!! Luv this analysis by Marjorie Cohn of an insolent war criminal.........but as samosamo says below........lets get out of the torture chamber, and...

.......Remember that innocent lil fella who conducted War Games on 9/11/01,
which sent NORAD jets out into the Atlantic Ocean ???? What a darn coincidence that same day two perfect jumbo jet imprints were made into the World Trade Center twin towers; a much smaller imprint into a construction wall of the Pentagon, and a supposed jumbo jet crash in a Pennsylvania farmland.

Duh, thats right, his name is Richard Cheney, too !! So if he is conducting NORAD War Games, how then is he on record as physically resisting and screaming at the US Secret Service who were forcibly taking him to the underground emergency operations center ???? And, simultaneously, in Sarasota, Fla the same US Secret Service allows the Big Guy==the reigning President of the USA to idly
sit, smiling for a full 10 minutes in front of an elementary school class reading the story of 'My Pet Goat'. Later, the Goat turns out to be Saddam H.

If we are not insulted by actual facts, folks, then no President will ever be
held accountable to the people again, ever again !!!! The key and the lock is not in the Torture Chamber, folks, but in the Neocon holiday known as 9/11 !!

As Kucinich screamed out at the Convention: WAKE UP AMERICA !!!! FOUR TIMES !

And on January 20, 2009 Barack Obama will become a co-defendant.

This country hasn't had a good tar and feathering in a long time.

Cheney will get a preventative pardon.

Obama will do nothing.

Congress won't impanel a commission to investigate him.

The spineless European nations won't arrest Cheney if he travels there - for fear of retaliation from the US rogue state.

There is no justice in this dark and hollow world.

---USAn---

Btw, being a peace loving liberal, i stand now before my peers and ask, am i wrong for wanting Barbara Bush to be held down so that the victims of Katrina can shit in her mouth???

Bush also admitted that he approved of high level meetings where waterboarding was authorized by Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, John Ashcroft, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld and George Tenet.

So they should all hang. Put it on network television and it'll be the most highly rated show in history of all television. But first allow the public to pass by them one by one and spit and piss on them.

Lets also make one thing perfectly clear, Bush and Cheney are not evil. They may aspire to be so, but they are just the perfect example of little dorks that were picked on in school, and grew up never forgiving and forgetting and then took it out on the world. Just snot nosed little punks that needed a good ass kicking. Nothing more.

Egad! Where is Vlad the Impaler when you need him?
There was a man who would never put up with these evil-doers.
We need a man like the Prince of Wallachia but all we get is (Eric) Prince and Wasilla.

The importance of the prosecution of the w & dick show, along with their equally culpable sidekicks and now along with what appears to be most of the SEC for turning their heads on repeated attempts to inform them of the huge fraud madoff was carrying out, is MOST essential. Not doing so will let it be known that any criminal mind is welcomed here in america to do his/her worse without fear of accountability and prosecution. As a matter of fact, this is what our economy for the last 8 or more years has been, a criminal economy because there has essentially been no transparency, regulation or oversight. There is not a clearer definition of what an 'unfettered market' produces, it gathers the crooks together to take what they want without fear of being caught and thrown in jail.
While we are at it, those 5 members of the supreme court that stopped the recount because it would 'do irreppreable harm to the petioner(w)', because gore had pulled within 154 votes of w is a criminal act. Prosecute them.
Then there is the matter of 9/11 which very much needs investigating by responsible parties not beholding to republicans or democrats. Investigate and prosecute.
No matter how ugly it turns out with who is responsible for any of this, it would be more harmful to do nothing and let those guilty remain living in our societies. Seems like w kind of said something like that about invading Iraq. Around about the 'smoking gun in the form of mushroom cloud' time. The only thing left to make it that bad is for us to be nuked because as broken as our economy is, w & dick have done more than any terrorist in destroying this economy and its people, with what they were purported to have been preventing with their criminal running of the country.

Grappa
I don't think any politicians has the guts to try and charge that bunch of racketeers from the White House. I believe the best chance for taking them to trial would be through the World Court in the Hague.I wouldn't look for them to actually allow themselves to be taken into custody, and most likely would be tried and convicted in absentia. It would kind of be a house arrest, as long as they stay in the good ol US they would be safe. They may be at risk if they venture outside of this country.
Sen. Levin as indicated he would like to set up a commission charged with bringing back a report showing wrongdoing if it so supported such findings on the possible breaking of international treaties through the use of torture. I just don't thing that will go very far. President elect Obama doesn't want to get caught up in these type of maters,side tracking him from his economic priorities. Its understandable on one level, but what does doing nothing say about the importance we the American people put on the rule of law?

I'm surprised nobody’s commented on the strategy here, which we've seen many times.

First there's denial and stonewalling and more denial.

Then there are lies, and more denial.

Then there are redefinitions of terms and laws and relationships and timelines and reality becomes liquid and hard to hold onto. But even so, everybody knows the truth, even the people who don't know consciously.

Then when some small truth that is linked to the big truth leaks out, after more denial and stonewalling there is "well yes that's true but only that and none of the big truth is true and there's no connection between the 2 and it’s not important anyway because the real reason we did it is..."(for mothers everywhere or to protect puppies or !support the troops!) (or "the real important thing is...", or some such diversion from the small truth that is linked to the big truth...

Then more truth comes out, and it is clearly seen by everyone who can still see that the small truth IS linked to the big truth.

Then there are more lies and denials and stonewalls, and then some larger part of the truth is admitted, probably never the whole truth, but it seems like it, and there's discussion about the truth and the definitions and the liquid reality and then some other lie comes out and the next day when you bring up the original story the liars and the pundit liars and everyone who could do anything all say

"why are you bringing that up? that's old news. get over it."

And then it starts again with the new lies.

Marjorie has stated what King O'Bama should do. Can you leftist radicals please be satisfied with that? Never mind that the royal chimp will do the complete opposite. Let me explain the mindset of REAL Americans and maybe you will "get it" like Common Dreams wants you to. Another article posted today on Common Dreams titled "America - The Whole Package" describes well what makes America truly great, and I quote: 'Stevens recounts the couple's astonishment at the quality and variety of food. At an Italian bakery in the East Village, Ina was "almost in tears when she saw the pastries displayed."' So you see it is not respect for the rule of law that is important in the USA, but rather the variety of pastries available as compared to lesser places like Russia. And the serving sizes in the restaurants, the lights that illuminate the Manhattan bridges, and so on. You should be able to get it, I think, and adopt the value system that will take you farthest in the 'good ol USA'. Can we auction the national parks to the highest bidder now?

Yeah, I hate to be the cynical pessimist, but I don't think Obama has it in him. He was bought years ago.

I hope he proves me wrong.

After watching Obama's frightened, cya appointments following election day, I have zero faith that he'll go after the Bush administration for war crimes. Zero.

I knew he was another Chicago pol. I didn't know he was JUST another Chicago pol.

The cover of a recent gossip rag stated an inkling about the Obamas that I had after watching Frontline on the eve of the election: that it's Michelle that "wears the pants" in the family. With Barack's appointments, especially Warren for the inaugural invocation, he appears to be going overboard with some kind of Lincoln like make nice nice. He also appears to be becoming extremely comfortable being the Grand Poo Bah of the US's most elitist Greek order, where they like to call names but never truly dump on their own. So I doubt he'll push war crimes.

However, if he does go after war crime recognition on some level I side with Detroit area activist legend Bishop Thomas Gumbleton and his statement that for the world court to become effective some level of amnesty would have to be given. Considering that 90% of US citizens were all for the obliteration of 30,000 or so "Taliban" members via cluster bombing, I'm all for giving Bush/Cheney a pass if clear recognition of past US war crime behavior came about, with amends to the Iraqi/Afghan people, and a wooden stake to the heart or silver bullet, whatever it takes, to expose and denounce and bury the catastrophic mind set and behavior of American Exceptionalism.

Warning, please do not use any microwave emitting devices around pacemakers.

Has this den of thieves stopped traveling in Europe? If not, why doesn't some other country arrest them?

I like that solution. The whole world could see that somebody else had to clean up our mess. This country deserves to be ashamed.

So , if federally run organizations in the united states , like Infragard ,CIA , IAFF, FBI , ATF, are practicing gang stalking domestic torture 24/7 surviellance, and using DEW's ( Directed Energy Weapons) against Americans that are innocent of crimes during a time of War, are they not guilty of WAR Crimes.

BornFreeMen

Domestic torture victim by Government sponsored agencies.

I am still confronted on a regular basis by people who believe Bush and Cheney are the heroes and Obama is the dangerous one. The neocon pundits are still preaching Obama's association with "socialists", "elitists" and "terrorists".

Prosecuting the Bush administration would encourage this divisiveness. Its time to move forward and start correcting the mistakes. So many mistakes! So much to do! No time for infighting.

'
NeoCons or NeoNazi, they're all the same........WAR CRIMINALS.

Bush, Cheney, and a long list of NeoCons should be tried at the International War Crimes Court at the Hague. They must be held responsible for their crimes.

Then and only then, can Justice and Truth, start to be restored to a ravaged world.

.

"Second, the Constitution requires that President Obama faithfully execute the laws."

Assuming that that will not happen and that Congress will wimp out as well, what recourse is left? I think the answer to that is why Cheney can be so smug. Ain't nothin gunna happin, unless an outraged citizenry DEMANDS justice! unfortunately I see little outrage; some disgust and wringing of hands, but not much else.

Real Change is what Obama based his entire campaign on. If he does not investigate and prosecute these war criminals it would be a great injustice not only to Americans, but to the entire world. I feel he may mean well, but I see in him a person whom can and probably will be intimidated by the invisible puppeteers. Some of the things he has stated his administraition would do would be beneficial, however "REAL CHANGE" is going to take more than a few new policies and the removal of troops in the Middle East. If his administration were to investigate & prosecute, it would send a powerful message to those who think they are above the Law. It can be done, through public pressure. Let's see to it that these crimes do not go unpunished.

James E. Libby

"Attorney General Michael Mukasey says there's no need for Bush to issue blanket pardons since there is no evidence that anyone developed the policies "for any reason other than to protect the security in the country and in the belief that he or she was doing something lawful.""

Wow. And this guy claims to be a lawyer? Ever hear the term "ignorance of the law is no excuse"? If good intentions were the standard for jurisprudence, there would be no criminals at all. Gee Judge, I really believed that murder was legal! How can you send someone to jail who thought they were acting within the law?

Mukasey should join them all in the docket at the International Court of Justice at the Hague. He is every bit the terrorist that the rest of these monsters are. He sat before the Senate confirmation hearings and claimed that he was unable to render a judgment on whether waterboarding was legal. I believe he indicated that he would get back to the Senators on that. HE LIED, UNDER OATH. It's called perjury, and it is a felony. It's also contempt of Congress, which is an impeachable offense. HE NEVER GOT BACK TO THEM. Which is his way of saying, waterboarding is legal. And, since it is NOT, he needs to be tried for war crimes as well as the rest of them.

Once most Americans finally realize we live in an OUTLAW ROGUE STATE, what will their response be?

"When is 'American Idol' on?"

Maybe I'll be surprised.

Yeah, right.

Of course Marjorie Cohn is absolutely correct and of course such prosecutions won't happen--in the United States by the U.S. government. However, a change of venue from the U.S. to the World Court in the Hague, Netherlands, could certainly assure a fair and unbiased trial. But then again we know that will never happen either don't we?

As long as the U.S. seeks to make itself an exception to the laws it expects others to follow, it will remain, by definition, an outlaw state.

Poet

Cheney already knows that the Obama/Biden administration will do to the Bush/Cheney gang what Clinton/Gore did to the Raygun/Bush gang, NOTHING ! Hell, I won't be surprised if Obama even gives Dubya a pardon !

"I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of the Republicans as a partisan witch hunt, because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve."

Well now, it's not exactly a witch hunt when they openly admit to it. (Maybe he'll change his position?) Besides aren't the criminal actions of our highest officials one of the many problems we've got to solve?

Can't wait to see what other issues will be determined not important enough to address in light of other issues.

Change takes courage Obama-- time to grow a pair.

Cheney made suckers out of all of you when he did 9/11.

Then he rubbed your noses in it.

What are you people made of--shopping bags?

"frank1569 December 19th, 2008 3:08 pm

As I've said before, The Decider and his team of sadists surely have their "defense" prepared for deployment when, I mean if, necessary: The Congress never declared "war" on either Afghanistan or Iraq."

BASED on what I've read a few times over the past recent months, the Congress authorized the war on the Taliban and hence Afghanistan, given we couldn't expect less, and only one female Congress member of California opposed.

As for Iraq, there was no legitimate basis upon which to authorize recourse to war on Iraq on any conditions, so the authorization they did give is equivalent, much.

No ones running the show.Obama says he's to busy to mess with investigations during his first year in office and the dems did not want to start impeachment because elections were to near.Who says Bush can't have the best of both worlds?

"countcoup December 19th, 2008 1:42 pm

The very simple fact that is missing from these, very poignant comments is this.

The "People of the United States" have all of the power they need. They can either take action, or not. They can assure themselves and even the Great Grandchildren of their Great Grandchildren (now that is projecting isn't it?), that these crimes that VP Cheney, so arrogantly admitted to * will never occur again."

BULL! It's "hollywood fantasy"!

Unfortunately, all they have to do is make people afraid and all this rightfully expressed concern goes out the window. We're a cowardly lot by nature.

As I've said before, The Decider and his team of sadists surely have their "defense" prepared for deployment when, I mean if, necessary: The Congress never declared "war" on either Afghanistan or Iraq.

No war, no prisoners of war, no war crimes. One of any number of friendly GOPathological judges will agree and dismiss all charges.

Plus, Team Torture most certainly has enough dirt on their Dem enablers via their illegal wiretapping 'program' to keep the leashes short and tight.

Move on, folks. Nothing to see here...

Here's a stinker of a cartoon to contemplate:

Scene: cold block room w/single light bulb. An interrogation room. A “detainee” being waterboarded. The agent pouring the water says, “OK, Abdul, Who set up 9/11?”. Abdul: “blubDickblubblubblubCheneyblubblub”. Second agent with a clip board, to a third rookie agent with the video camera: “Eh, that’s what they all say the first few times…”.
The little mouse in the corner says, “Must be a conspiracy”….

Hopefully, the following words are suitable only for fiction, an int'l intrigue movie, or conspiracy freaks, but...In light of recent revelations* (guesses?), there seems to be a very dark and sad, but plausible case to be made that the secrecy and torturing was not to make the war less dangerous or shorter for our troops or safeguard national security, but to cover up, ferret out and neutralize evidence or anyone who had first hand knowledge of who the perps are and how the whole thing unfolded. Can anyone come up with a way to connect the dots that is less painful to patriotic sensibilities? I hope so, because if this tends toward non-fiction, thoughts of such deep treachery and treason are hard to bear. If it is possible (1%?) that well-meaning, courageous, patriotic soldiers and interrogators have been mis-used, it must be investigated.

*In "Shock Doctrine", Klein tells how torture is used to destroy minds.
*Ray McG and others have hinted that raw results of 'interrogations' went right to the top, and orders went from there down. Interesting info would be if different levels/stages of interrogators were talking to each other. And where which detainees were sent to become babbling idiots...IF that ever happened.
*One or two years ago Foreign Affairs mag had an article buried in the back in which high level brass (Powell, too) signed off their oath to obey legal orders only, saying that because in "the conditions of modern war" only the CIC could make that determination. Same as Nixon saying, "...if the President does it, that makes it legal...". as above. It was a sad day in Arlington Cemetery when they penned that.

I just think that this Nation and the people who have died to preserve our ideals deserve better.

P.S.:Dick, if you did not work out with a nod and a wink a quid pro quo w/King S for the Sep surprise, my apologies. We’re just trying to find out what happened to Lady Liberty.

The really depressing aspect of the matter is the niggling, persistent notion that Dick Cheney is the true face of America, the basic prototype.

Dick Cheney is the most evil man in the world and as such a lying sack of shit deserves any and all punishmeent for his crimes. I sincerely hope that he is hauled up before the World Court and tried, convicted and hung for his crimes. It is proven that he does not have a conscience.