The Town Hall Mob
There’s a famous Norman Rockwell painting titled “Freedom of Speech,” depicting an idealized American town meeting. The painting, part of a series illustrating F.D.R.’s “Four Freedoms,” shows an ordinary citizen expressing an unpopular opinion. His neighbors obviously don’t like what he’s saying, but they’re letting him speak his mind.
That’s a far cry from what has been happening at recent town halls, where angry protesters — some of them, with no apparent sense of irony, shouting “This is America!” — have been drowning out, and in some cases threatening, members of Congress trying to talk about health reform.
Some commentators have tried to play down the mob aspect of these scenes, likening the campaign against health reform to the campaign against Social Security privatization back in 2005. But there’s no comparison. I’ve gone through many news reports from 2005, and while anti-privatization activists were sometimes raucous and rude, I can’t find any examples of congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen surrounded and followed by taunting crowds.
And I can’t find any counterpart to the death threats at least one congressman has received.
So this is something new and ugly. What’s behind it?
Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, has compared the scenes at health care town halls to the “Brooks Brothers riot” in 2000 — the demonstration that disrupted the vote count in Miami and arguably helped send George W. Bush to the White House. Portrayed at the time as local protesters, many of the rioters were actually G.O.P. staffers flown in from Washington.
But Mr. Gibbs is probably only half right. Yes, well-heeled interest groups are helping to organize the town hall mobs. Key organizers include two Astroturf (fake grass-roots) organizations: FreedomWorks, run by the former House majority leader Dick Armey, and a new organization called Conservatives for Patients’ Rights.
The latter group, by the way, is run by Rick Scott, the former head of Columbia/HCA, a for-profit hospital chain. Mr. Scott was forced out of that job amid a fraud investigation; the company eventually pleaded guilty to charges of overbilling state and federal health plans, paying $1.7 billion — yes, that’s “billion” — in fines. You can’t make this stuff up.
But while the organizers are as crass as they come, I haven’t seen any evidence that the people disrupting those town halls are Florida-style rent-a-mobs. For the most part, the protesters appear to be genuinely angry. The question is, what are they angry about?
There was a telling incident at a town hall held by Representative Gene Green, D-Tex. An activist turned to his fellow attendees and asked if they “oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care.” Nearly all did. Then Representative Green asked how many of those present were on Medicare. Almost half raised their hands.
Now, people who don’t know that Medicare is a government program probably aren’t reacting to what President Obama is actually proposing. They may believe some of the disinformation opponents of health care reform are spreading, like the claim that the Obama plan will lead to euthanasia for the elderly. (That particular claim is coming straight from House Republican leaders.) But they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what they’ve heard about what he’s doing, than to who he is.
That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.
And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.
Does this sound familiar? It should: it’s a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites.
Many people hoped that last year’s election would mark the end of the “angry white voter” era in America. Indeed, voters who can be swayed by appeals to cultural and racial fear are a declining share of the electorate.
But right now Mr. Obama’s backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isn’t living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.
And if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.
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146 Comments so far
Show AllToo right, B'Soc
Blacksocialist - Hello, hope to hear more from you!
Krugman is at The Times where "All the nonsense that's fit to print" originated.
People vote daily with their dollars and intheir lives with their feet.
Would that the, 'Yes to higher taxes' crowd would voluntarily over pay theirs.
Those that decry Senior C's accepting SS and M'care shouldconsider that all wage earners are compelled to pay for those bad choices and are therefore owed!
Were people at the start of their working lives offered the choice of opting in or out of SS, M'c, maybe some or most might decline the kind offer.
"Blacksocialist - Hello, hope to hear more from you!"
Careful what you wish for.
The paid trolls need each other to reinforce their "presence" here on CD...
They are plants... And often it is the same guy with multiple screennames...
They have conversations with each other to water down the dialogue with their lies...
So just ignore them...
That's pretty sad.
Liberals are so into their fantasyland that they cannot even fathom anyone opposing their view without being paid to do so.
Group think has them blinded to the reality, that normal citizens disagree with them here and in town hall forums.
Dear Mr Krugman please from hence forward limit your punditry to advocating disasterous economic policy such as is your area of expertise and leave the race baiting and hyperventilating to the respective experts.
Thanks in advance.
Reverend Wright
the point was lost at the beginning...
we don't need health CARE reform...
the debate is (should be) health care PAYMENT reform...
the private health INSURERS have deftly inserted themselves between a patient's dollars and the treatment they get...
medicare... on the other hand... has that "insertion" down to 2% of contributions... i.e., overhead... i.e., administrative salaries... etc.
healthcare INSURERS' top management regularly pull down multi-and-multi hundred million dollar salaries...
what is it... a private health INSURER does... that costs so much?
Public Health Insurance directs dollars to patient CARE.
Private Health Insurance denies care to direct dollars to health insurer salaries.
so simple... pay for health insurers' salaries... or pay for medical care?
I find it hilarious when people disparage "for-profit" services of any kind.
Tell me how many of you wankers work for free?
Now: all of you who proudly affirmed you do indeed work for FREE, please inform us all HOW you manage to be able to afford it?
I guarantee 100% , that your source derives from someone willing to pay for a service, product or intellectual property.
All products and sevices have a price,many of you need to grow up and accept that reality.
Those of you who know this are just making up excuses for wanting something for nothing:GOOD LUCK with that.
no one's talking about "wanting something for nothing"... that's YOUR premise...
americans pay TWICE as much for LESS health CARE than EVERY OTHER industrialized nation... why is that?
we're talking about UNECESSARY costs...
like 2% administration for MEDICARE vs. an average of 30% administration for PRIVATE sector insurers... why is that?
if the private sector health INSURANCE (note: no health INSURER provides ANY health CARE)... is so DAMN good... then why do they say the government... who can't run anything... will put them out of business?
the HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY's OWN ANALYSIS... predicts a Public Option will cause 90+ million people to switch from private plans...
now why is that?
'if the private sector health INSURANCE (note: no health INSURER provides ANY health CARE)... is so DAMN good... then why do they say the government... who can't run anything... will put them out of business?
HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY's OWN ANALYSIS... predicts a Public Option will cause 90+ million people to switch from private plans..."
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You obviously have not thought about this with ANY understanding.
The govt can just subsidize it's healthcare ins losses with social security overfunding,general revenue taxation, printing money , printing some of those nice non-negotiable bonds or selling bonds to the chinese(to be paid back with newly printed money).
All of those solutions are unavailable to a private ins company.
I would be sorely tempted to sign up for a govt plan that was 1/5 what I pay now though coverage would be probably poorer.
It would not take long for my insurance company to go out of business and limit my choice by unavailability .
Once the govt is the defacto provider, rationing without recourse would be easy to implement and would be required due to excess demand for "free services".
#1) No one "wanting something for nothing"... ? that's not my premise that is what people who favor the govt plan are demanding. They want something they cannot or will not buy of their own accord.
#2) I don't think that is accurate but it's irrelevant because the true costs elsewhere are hidden as a govt subsidy. Healthcare prices are going to be somewhat location dependent. 1950's healthcare is probably okay for an adult broken limb but not so hot for pancreatic cancer.
#3)"UNECESSARY costs..." Who are you trying to kidd. What is considered UNECESSARY is in the eye of the beholder and only then after the fact.
One reason is a defense against lawsuits, the other is excess testing when not warrented is stupidly expensive. Case in point : in december Dr's thought I had cancer. 3 Specialists observed the mass, 1 mri with another 2 specialists from a teaching University indicated a probable cancer. A biopsy was not done because if it was cancer it could cause metatasis. The ins co denied a full body pet scan($10,000test) until proof of cancer. I had surgery scheduled for the excision of several muscles and some bone only to find it was large infection. Testing in this case would have meant 4x the cost for earlier peace of mind.
4) 2% is impossible to believe. To a great deal medicare pawns off work to regional carriers ,hospitals and providers of the care and services to vendors.
States pick up the tab for frequent week long onsite audits of compliance with both care and paperwork compliance nearly yearly.
Just like overseas health care, the true costs are easily hidden because it's in the govt's power and benefit to do so.
simply put "for profit" anything is in existence "for profit". period.
that's OK for tv's, cars, cell phones and shoes.
one can choose NOT to purchase consumer goods.
one can choose NOT to purchase health care too... probably not advocated by most people. but i'm sure there are some.
some things... in a society... cannot be purchased by an individual. police, fire, education, roads, electric grids, prisons and healthcare... to name a few.
not EVERYTHING in a society NEEDS to make a profit. that's an ideological divide that both sides will not compromise on... not EVERYTHING in life NEEDS to fit on a spreadsheet...
you bring up good points. while medicare certainly can use some improvements... fraud... generous treatment of claims submitted... they are not in existence to make a profit... the ONLY way for for-profit health insurers to make a profit is to... insure healthy people... charge higher premiums... increase copays... deny treatments... in other words... collect more... pay out less... some of the private sector's efficiencies' models can be useful for public health insurance... but not all...
medicare is in existence to PROVIDE health care... not MAKE A PROFIT... until the underlying ideology is resolved... this system of health insurance... thus payment... will continue...
when i need medical care... i cannot just shop around... delay a purchase... and return or exchange it...
the 2% percent number is widely disputed as to what should be and what should not be included as a cost... the final analyses arrive at the same conclusion... for profit insurers' costs come in at a factor 2-4 times higher... 2% v 25%; 5% vs 20%; there are no incentives with medicare to make a profit...
and yes... there are those individuals who run to the doctor, hospital and pharmacy everytime they get static cling in their socks... want the latest tests... using the latest technologies... and want it for free... but... the U.S. also subsidized "those" industries' profits via the patent and trademark monopolies... why is research and development "protected" when manufacturing wage jobs are not... why are prescriptions consistently higher priced in the U.S. than outside? maybe there's a better way to fund R&D...
i am a capitalist. i believe ANYBODY has the right to earn a million-billion dollars... and do what they want with it... i don't believe health insurance is one area that should be driven by for-profit...
if the "free marketers" are SO dedicated to "free-markets"... why don't they set up shop in somalia... the government there collapsed in 1991 and therefore does not exist... NO regulations of any sort... seems to me... that is the "perfect" free market advocated by ayn rand... milton friedman and their disciples...
why not... because the FOR PROFIT CORPORATIONS use the commons... the TAXPAYER paid infrastructures to exist in the first place... their buildings are protected by the police (and military from outside attacks)... their goods and services are transported by the highway systems... their electricity phones and data transported by those various infrastructures... then there's the intellectual and property rights... the courts systems... all taxpayer funded...
one always "forgets" the "hidden" subsidies corporations get just by setting shop in the U.S....
You are sadly mistaken if you think that anything in society which involves money or labor from others does not fit on a sreadsheet.
The prime example of attempting to take the profit incentive out of US business is our lousy 401K system.
Companies are forbade to make a profit on their 401k program: , sounds great until it dawns on you that the company has no vested interest in cost containment of the program.
Many employers just completely wash themselves of the expense and sign up with whoever makes it easiest on them the company and the employee gets stuck with a crappy plan with high expenses.
It's not unusual for a third party to charge 2% loads, advertising fees (12b-1),1%aum, etc . It's certainly possible over 30 yrs for the 401 provider to have made more profit on an employee from fees than he did in the market: all because the govt wanted to divorce the employer from a profit motive.
The bottom line is when people have no stake in controlling costs directly, costs do not get controlled.
dude... i really am trying to agree with you on some important points...
i truly feel sorry for you cancer and truly admire your approoach to its treatment... more people should be so responsible...
4 years ago... my doctor said... cholesterol high... here's a Rx for Lipitor... but let me know right away if you get all these weird side effects... i let him do his sphpeel... and DID NOT get a RX for Lipitor... i went and read on the taxpayer funded NIH site that i was "borderline" high... for the next year... i did not stop eating bagels w/ cream cheese... or pizza... or cupcakes... but i DID monitor how much... how often.. and increased my intake of fresh fruits and vegetables... the next year... after a NEW doctor... ALL my cholesterol categories were DOWN 15-20% and well within recommended ranges... i cold have used my $10 copay per Rx and stocked up on high priced Liptitor every month... and stuffed the pharmaceuticals' profit spreadsheets... but i took care of myself... now what do the Rx companies tell you?... EVEN IF you take care of yourself... you STILL need our drugs because it's inherited... and if its not inherited... buy our damns Rx's anyway... its "good" for you...
in 1998... there was a looooooooooong Wall Street Journal article detailing the loss of drug company profits due to lack of blockbuster drugs in the pipeline... the overall PLAN by the Rx companies was to market the hell out everything they had and dozens of companion and copycat drugs... to the tune of $250 BILLION a year...
this year i had another physical... and my doctor said... viatmin D low... buy this supplement... went home... AGAIN... read up on vitamin D... find out its not really definitively linked to anything too terrible... and can get what i need outside 3 x week for about 30 minutes in the sun... and find out the test cost $225.00 billed to my health insurance... and never had this test before... so next year... "I" will tell the doctor which blood tests to order...
someone wrote recently here... 90 percent of health problems were solved with soap and penicillin... since then... we have high priced nothing... but everybody wants it... and the "for profits" are only too happy to insert themselves between the patient and the actual provision of the care or Rx...
so i say... listen to rush... go see sarah... buy a "support the troops" magnet... and when you bed down in your cardboard box for the night under the freeway... remember... george bush probably spends more on a round of golf than some people earn in a year...
"god bless america".
Squidd--Vitamin D deficiency is linked to auto-immune diseases, cancer, heart disease as well as bone fractures.
You can go to vitamindcouncil.org, a website started by an MD who learned about the D research and wanted to get the word out. You can order a test through this website for $65 and 250 5,000IU tabs for about $25 (includes shipping)
ok... 401k's... are and should make a profit... and... they are rigged... your money is held hostage in a big casino in new york... but i digress... we were talking about paying for healthcare... you cannot compare growing an investment to health care... by definition... 401k's are profit/loss vehicles... and they are OPTIONAL... you can choose not to participate... and don't say you HAVE to to get the match... millions don't work for a company that provides a match... you can't choose not to treat a stroke or heart attack... (you could, technically, but...)
the cost of healthcare can be provided for every person in the country... AND... NOT be based on making a profit...
every actor from front to back can be paid... but as long as the insurance payment mechanism is in the hands of "for profit" entities... it will ALWAYS put "profit" ahead of healthcare... period.
it all begins with where you begin... do you want to provide health insurance to all... or do you want to make a profit... if you want to provide health care for all... it can be provided...
it will cost money... nobody's arguing that... but it's an ideological decision... the greatness of a society can be determined on how it cares for it's least vulnerable... which is diametrically opposed to making a profit... making a profit many times exploits the most most vulnerable among us... i.e., Payday loans, ARM mortgages...
and for your 401k hidden fees... duh!... did you think the "free marketers" really meant this was an "ownership" society... they knew this from day 1... remember the movie Wall Street... "...Buddy the beauty of this company is its overfunded pension..." they COULDN'T WAIT to get their hands on all those BILLIONS being put away for retirement... just like the medicare part B... the free marketer types are going after EVERY pot of money out there...
in the 80's they got the pensions and S&L's... in the 90's they got the 401k's... in the past 10 years they got the real estate assets... now they want the healthcare dollars... guess what's next?... yup... social security...
keep cheerleading the coporatists... while you're at it go read the june 2009 treasury report on FY20008/09 individual vs corporate tax receipts in DOLLARS... individuals $550B... corporations $150B...
You are wrong Cost containment incentives are equally valid comparators between outsourcing health care and deferred compensation plans.
Both are intiated and offered by employers as direct customers for the benefit of the employees.
In the case of health ins premiums it pays both the company and the employee to search for the best deal (cost containment).
In the case of 401k's the purchaser (employer)has no financial incentive to shop for a bargain for the benefit of the indirect consumer(employee) who ironically also bears 100% of the costs of operation and not the employer.
Funny, it seems to work in Europe and Canada. But maybe they are a different species with a different bottom line. Us Mericans are such consummate capitalists that we can't do anything without a profit motive. All hail to the great capitalist god Profit Motive and to His priests, Health Insurers.
It's really very simple, blacksocialist. We pay taxes, and the government uses these taxes to support a health care system. It's working very well already for a thing called Medicare. The one great thing single payer does is to take health insurance companies out of the health care business for the majority of people. Health Insurance companies are doing fine in Europe, it's just they are not allowed to come between a person and his health care. No one is giving anyone anything. I work hard for the money that the government taxes me for. I just wish they would spend it on things that benefited me, instead of stupid wars and corporate bailouts. I'm getting very tired of supporting fat-cat capitalists who pay themselves obscene salaries and bonuses. Is this the wonderful 'profit motive' you are worshiping?
It's really very simple, blacksocialist. We pay taxes, and the government uses these taxes to support a health care system. It's working very well already for a thing called Medicare.
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LOL, evidently bankrupt unsustainabiity equals "very well " in your book.
Go back to smoking your bong, medicare IS the next national crisis.
Don't take my word for it read the rosy version here.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html
"Go back to smoking your bong" Are you one of those Drug Warriors that are against herb? You must be the reincarnation of Anslinger.
Well say hey, One person's Brownshirt is another's Concerned Citizen.
Just because ACORN shirts are red doesn't mean they are acting like Brownshirts.
You Progressives are whiners with too much time on your hands.
Since you dislike being employees start something of your own and learn the joy building rather tearing down.
God, you are such an idiot. When I'm being screwed, I do tend to whine. Sorry about that. And by the way, I'm not a Progressive, I'm a died in the wool socialist, and proud of it. I want to tear down our whole system. So sue me.
Do something of service for your fellow man (aka:becoming a productive citizen)and you won't have to advocate tearing down our whole system.
It's funny how it works that way, only misanthropes and losers think like you for long periods of their lifetime.
btw: I love the freudian slip "DIED in the wool socialist" too funny!!
I don't see any evidence in this article that the rage has anything to do with racism. Krugman simply claims it is such and states that maybe a lot of these people are also birthers who are maybe questioning Obama's citizenship out of racism, therefore it must be that these people are afraid of black people and that's why they are so mad.
I'm going to throw out another theory of my own. It is that we have had 100 years of anti-socialism PR in this country, endless examples of fear and anger towards anything socialist and angry passionate reactions to them. And the suggestion of a big new socialist program gets the same sort of reaction. Who knows, maybe the most obvious answer is the true one.
Anyway, this article proves that Krugman's crackpot theories don't just apply to the economy.
Here's another theory, some people have historically used racial issues to get support for their agenda by making it seem like those opposed to them are racist, sort of like when people say if you don't support military action you are unpatriotic. And maybe some people, even though a black man has now been elected president, will not give up on this sleazy low manipulative tactic. Some people like Krugman.
I wish people would stop using the term "government run healthcare". It's bullshit. We need government sponsored health insurance. Medicare for all! I wouldn't feel unduly burdened if the government took 5% of my income to pay for my medical care. This is one area I would fully endorse a flat tax on everybody. The funds could provide everybody healthcare and enough to investigate for fraud from physicians, pharmacists, and civil servants. If you took all the sin taxes I've paid in my life so far, I'd probably have over $30K to use for my healthcare yet I've spent less than $10K during my adulthood of 25 years on healthcare. I could use some help. I try to eat well most of the time to reduce my chance of illness. I don't take medicines for any little thing. I haven't even taken an aspirin in years.
The cheapest health insurance I could find was over 6% of of my income with a $5000 (almost 20% of my income) deductible and copays yet they would not insure we due to the fact I admitted I had smoked pot within the last year. I figure my life expectancy is greatly reduced just because of high medical costs more so than some of my "bad" habits. I'm one that can not afford preventative care much less something worse. My healthcare looks like it will be a bullet in the brain when life becomes unbearable. The only other choice will be amassing debt that will keep me in poverty and servitude for whatever less healthy life I might have remaining. I'd like to thank all the people who have helped make sure that the US remains the worst of industrialized nations by promoting a for-profit "deathcare" system.
Your CHOOSING to refrain from buying health insurance is a personal one.
Your decision to consume an illegal substance, once again is a personal one.
No one else but you should be responsible for YOUR decisions.
You have simply decided the expense is not worth it to you.
Then you go on to whine that your greatest prospect denied you as a client because you admitted to illegal substance use.
You simply represent a bad risk or poor decision making which is more expensive to insure. To put it simply people who have DUI's can get car insurance but they have to pay for the insurance company contractually obligating themselves to a high risk customer.
God, how you sicken me with your talk of choice. Maybe you have the advantage of 'choice', but there are millions of people in this country who do not. And instead of ranting about illegal substances, how about legal substance abuse and the companies that make huge profits from selling such substances. You are so misguided, your priorities are so fucked, that you can't think straight.
oh I get it someone held a gun to your head today and said make an idiot of yourself on the net.
Congratulations you did it by choice vs coercion.
double post
Looks like any opposition these days is labled as Mobs or fascists.
I decided to go to a townhall myself to see. Guess what. There were many faces there I recognized. This BS about just Repub RW nuts is just that. BS. At least at the one I attended.
Yes people got noisy. If I wanted to hear the Party line I would have stayed home and played it back on video. Platitudes aren't answers.
There are a lot of folks fooling themselves these days. And apparently PHD's are no help in understanding people.
Would 'groups of idiots' sound better? Or 'ordinary people willing to be dupes of a corporate health system'? You talk about the Party Line. Try the Corporate Line that the Health Industry is spending millions a day to promote.
I cry for America if these "Town Hall" meetings are representative of the common wisdom.
Can (serious question) anyone tell me why people who are being disruptive to the point of making dialogue at a town hall meeting impossible aren't simply given the choice of either leaving the meeting or being arrested for disorderly conduct?
I'm fine with noisy protest and disturbing the peace. I'm also fine with being arrested as one of the prices of being a noisy and disruptive protestor.
I attended a demonstration for single payer healthcare yesterday at a town hall meeting with my federal representative. This was loosely organized by the Moab Area Progressive Network. Being too angry to go inside and talk to Blue Dog Jim Matheson, (D) Utah, I stood at the curb of Highway 191 in Moab and held out a huge sign that said “For Profit Healthcare is Deathcare.” Two friends held signs saying “Single Payer Now.” I have picketed for many causes over the years, but never with such an enthusiastic response from the people passing by. Despite one thumbs down by a woman in a Lexus, I received hundreds of smiles, thumbs up, honks, and other signs of appreciation. A surprising number of people stopped and took handouts from my group. Commercial drivers, city and county employees including the Sheriff and local Police were unusually receptive. The four workers in a local health department car smiled and waved at our group. If this can happen in conservative Utah, you ought to try it where you live. This is an interesting moment.
I have absolutely no doubt that the majority of people in the United States would welcome single payer healthcare. But since when have the majority of people had a say? They don't get a choice with our two party system that robs anyone who has an opinion other than the good old corrupt capitalist one. They thought they had a choice with Obama, but after 200 days he's not being very encouraging. Unless he has a rather large rabbit to pull out of his hat, he's not doing well at promoting the change he promised. Looking at the health care plan he's promoting, crafted without the input of any single payer advocate, I don't see much change. So it looks like we will limp on with our present system, or one modified to meet the approval of the Health Care Industry. Single payer seems to be like the Emperor without Clothes. There might be public acknowledgment of it, but you don't hear much about it in congress or by the President or on TV. That would be a huge NO NO.
NO doubt in my mind that these 'shouters' are of the same type of republican operatives that succeeded in stopping a recount in florida in 2000, it is just that now they are clear evidence of the very comparative closeness of both republicans and democrats(who may be the blue dogs or conservative dems which is really nothing but a conservative republican in democrat clothing) trying to stop public financing of health & medical care because they claim it will create a socialist nation in america instead of the investor driven apparat that the money changers so much desire.
And investor devices are NOT guaranteed so it is easy as pie for an investor to lose everything real quick while the crooks and scoundrels make out like bandits.
"Land of the free and home of the brave"??
This European would primarily call it "land of the whimps". Albeit often with some guns hidden under their mattresses, in order to feel "free" and "brave".
But stage a huge demo or participate in a noticable strike or demand a living wage? No way!
It's the American Right that's still calling the shots over there. One has to admit that they just stay their course. Contrary to progressives who keep eyeing opinion polls and change their own course accordingly.
Whenever I am visiting a state as conservative as Oklahoma (every county voted for McCain, thank you!), I notice that progressives don't speak up, except me, the foreigner. Where I come from, it's the left that is known to be hard-hitting, y' know.
In the American Bible Belt, progressives remain silent and they let the evangelical morons shout all the time without interrupting them. That would be considered too rude, I guess.
IMO, there is a limit to accepting idiots' opinions. I am sick and tired of being the only one to speak up against these fascists when in the US occasionally. I am back in Europe right now, but it still angers me just to think of it.
Could American progressives just stop being nice and pleasant particularly in the South, PLEASE???
Does America even have a 'progressive left'? We don't have a viable Communist Party, we don't have viable labor unions that truly represent their workers. What we have is Ralph Nader and Michael Moore and a couple of very weak independent parties. What we have are huge corporations that own Washington. What we have is the KKK and well organized hate groups. What we have is a small fundamentalist Christian right which is the tail that wags the Republican Party. What we have is Erik Prince. When people call the United States fascist, they are not using a figure of speech.
I'd say half the US population wouldn't even need any sophisticated psychological tests to reveal that they have strong fascist leanings (the number in Western(!) Europe would be below that, but it's not like it would be half that, I fear, BTW, and don't get me started re Eastern Europe...).
But that's not exactly what America's official mission statement amounts to, right?
The thing about fascists, Araquin, is that they don't really engage in debate--arguably the essence of democracy. They shout you down. If you don't shut up and go away they beat you or kill you or both. I should think Southern progressives might understandably be afraid for their lives. They're not just visitors; they have to live there.
Chris Hedges for one has been warning about the looming conflict in this country between moderate and progressive citizens and the Christian fascist right for some time. Are we there, finally?
I've heard your arguments many times in Oklahoma.
And still: I normally manage to shut them up or at least let them walk away pretty frustrated with the feeling that they had just lost a debate for lack of better arguments.
No, they don't pull out a gun. They are normally just flabbergasted and shocked that someone finally stands up and confronts them. I can also be pretty aggressive, if need be. They don't have a monopoly on that, and BTW in Europe we do have a tradition that the left is on the attack and not just timidly REacting.
One usually just has much better arguments, because mostly, they all have one thing in common: They are frightfully uneducated and uninformed.
I've only once in my life experienced a dyed-in-the-wool Republican US ex-diplomat (in Europe, though, that's where he chose to live after retirement) who was a really tough opponent and well-read and well informed. We both relished our arguments, as a result, because we both experienced it as an intellectual challenge.
It really pays not to just walk away. That's at least my experience. We simply don't give them as much space in Europe as you do in America. There's no need to do that!
You won't necessarily make friends among them that way, but who cares?
,,,shouting “This is America!” Damn brown shirted Fascists!
Now we have a Red/Blue civil war brewing.
When I heard a woman at a town hall meeting tell her congressman that congress should be keeping us safe from terrorist instead of working on health care, I wondered why she doesn't understand that her chances of dying from cancer or other diseases or injuries is far greater than getting killed by a terrorist. Our common enemies are ignorance, poverty, and disease. If we work to overcome these, the worst enemies, then we will not seek wars to challenge our minds and spirits. I am for single payer health care. We have the people who can make it work much better and cheaper than any private, profit making, health care system.
The right is SO solidified and SO uninterested in anything a Democratic President and Congress would pass, that it is in the interest of Obama to NOT be bipartisan. Instead, they should focus on legislation that actually WORKS for their constituents. Yet, so polluted by healthcare lobbyiest money are they, that they are going to give the GOP the boondoggle healthcare reform that will fuel that party for years.
Single payer. Direct. To the point. Totally what Democrats were invented for. Do it, or deserve the GOP swiftboat attacks that will follow.
Apart from your trust in the Democratic Party, I concur with you totally. I haven't heard the Democrats taking about single payer. I have seen President Obama invite the Health Care Industry to the table.
Single payer is totally what the Democrats were invented for? That's a joke, right?
Since 1980 or so, as the Democratic Party has been taken over by the minions of the right-wing DLC, the Donks have been just as servile to corporate interests as the Republicans.
This is not your father's Democratic Party. The last time the Democrats passed any significant reform legislation was in the mid-1960s, with Medicare and the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts.
That's nearly half a century ago. Since then . . . nothing, except the reactionary spree of Clinton time, with its rabid reversals of the New Deal: repeal of Glass Steagall, repeal of Aid to Dependent Children ("welfare reform"), rampant deregulation, WTO/NAFTA, etc.--a frenzy of corporate servitude that would make any Republican proud.
Time to get over the Democrats. They are to the progressive agenda as oil is to water.
I mean, single payer should be the opening progressive party platform on healthcare. If the Democrats are progressive, they need to go there. As you pointed out, they are as compromised as the GOP. However, I would counterpoint that they need to grow some cojones fast, or they will pass a 2000 page long recipe for no-change that will give the GOP MUCH more ammunition and totally demoralize the progressive who hoped for better from the Dems.
It's not the Democrats who need to grow the cojones--it's the independent progressives who fell for the public-option scam instead of pushing for single payer from the beginning.
The Democrats--"liberals" like Waxman and Kennedy included--are employees of the health lobby. We can't depend on them for anything. We have to force them to do the right thing through independent activism.
It's not up to them--it's up to us.
Inadvertent repetition deleted.
van mungo
Since 1980 the right has been taken over by fascists. Armed with supply side economics, King Ronald cried "get government off the backs of business" and the obedient congress complied. We removed the mean old restrictions off the backs of business, and Wall Street promptly proceeded to close down America's manufacturing sector, ship the factories to China, and began the dismantling the American Dream.
We finally come to our senses and elected Clinton, the economy recovered, and we sat on a projected $5.7 trillion surplus. We elect Junior Bush and he promptly gave the $5.7 trillion to those who did not need it, and read storybooks while the WTC was leveled by a handful Arabs. Then he decides that rather than wait for Saddam to takeout the Bushes for Gulf War I, he did a 90% and "shocked & awed" Iraq (still ain't figured that one out).
And you have the gall to accuse the Democrats of misgoverning? Hello! Earth to vanmunvan mungogood thing about the conservative is his ability to hide himself from reality by putting on ideological blinders that shields them from reality. Yep, that includes you.
Talk about ideological blinders--your summer camp color-war view of politics is so cartoonish that you can't even decipher a criticism from the left--all dissent from the Democratic Party line looks conservative to you.
Notwithstanding your puerile, abusive name-calling--which I have tabbed for abuse--I defy you to name a single major national security or economic policy in the past quarter century on which the two parties have not been collaborators.
Maybe you're an eager sucker for the Beltway shell game, but the more discerning among us have graduated beyond that MSM caricature of reality.
I agree that single payer is needed and I know I could desperately benefit from it now that I'm unemployed due to my company finally giving its last breath. However, I find it very scary that despite all the compromising of the current bill in Congress, Town Hall is this nasty. How much more nasty would they be if single payer were on the table?
sierra7
"How much nastier......?"
That's precisely the point...it NEEDS to get MUCH NASTIER before we can truly believe we belong to a progressive nation....
Single-Payer Universal Health Care must be considered a HUMAN RIGHT (all over the world) before we can call ourselves "progressive."
In this weeks Business Week Mag (not considered a lefty) there is an excellent article about how the major insurance health care "providers" are already winning the battle on "health care reform" and how they will increase their profits from the supposedly "future" outcome of congressional votes.
We need to get "more nastier." (bad English but what works, works!)
100% right, we need to be unabashed and frightening LEFTISTS.
Right wingers are stupid bullies and all bullies run away when confronted.
The great shame is that there aren't scary single payer advocates shouting down all other proposals.
It can't get any nastier or more corrupt than it already is. So why waste your energy and political capital on fake reform?
Some pseudo-progressives thought they would win some slack by meekly begging for the pseudo-reform of the public option rather than boldly demanding the real reform of single payer. For their cowardice, they were rewarded with . . . a steamroller from the right.
They should have been pushing single payer from the beginning.
You are absolutely right. Single payer would give Americans their right to healthcare. It should have been pushed from the beginning and all 'progressives' should be pushing it still. The "left" in this country could use a little single mindedness.
All the Dem's have to do is argue that Single Payer saves money (cause it does) and that the CBO (congressional budget office) should compare Single Payer to the "public" option and they'll prove it. That will make these town hall terrorists (people who have no ideas) look like enemies of conservatism. Done. Dem's win.
Ah, but insurance companies would lose. I stand corrected.
Astroturf democrats.
Its amusing to see these folks calling these "terroists" at Town Hall meetings a MOB. Most people are opposing this abortion being advocated by this President and this Congress.
How pathetic.
henny8
The rabid right hatemongers are just just as, if not more, pathetic. The boneheads are stuck in the 19th century and are not capable of grasping reality. The only thing they want is smear this president. The health care issue is just a means to do it. Herr Limbaugh and his wacked out wingnuts are trying the same tactic used in the 2000 election. It won't work this time. You want an eye for an eye, got it.
Henny8
The next shutdown will result in a force of people who will not allow this fascist tactic. Yeah, fascist tactic. The same ones that the Nazis used in shouting, cursing, screaming, hissing, and fighting those who refused to let civil discourse take place. But, we're not going to let the American fascist do to us what their forebears did to Germany. You did this to us in 2000 when the recount was shouted down in Miami. It won't happen again.
"Most people are opposing this abortion being advocated by this President and this Congress."
Abortion? Are you calling the health care plan an abortion? If so, why?
I am not amused. BTW the word terrorist is too kind a word for these thugs. They go to these meetings with talking points straight from the health industry mafia and shut down any form of discussion. If they went to these meetings and spoke their piece in a civil fashion that would be one thing. But their goal is to shut down the health care debate. If I went to a town hall meeting I would have zero patience for these brown shirt wannabes disrupting these meetings and preventing me from speaking to my congress person.
Another point I want to make is have you seen the rabble rousers at these meetings? They look like they are retirement age. I would like to ask those hypocrites if you hate government involvement in your life, then please by all means cancel your social security checks and get the hell out of medicare.
Interesting point about the hypocrites who don't want government involvement in their lives, because they don't see it that way when it benefits them. Case in point, and I know I've written about this on CD before- but a friend of my mother's is (as are my parents) opposed to "government-run" health care, any kind of universal health care. She likes to point out that she "worked for everything" she has, and that before she retired she had to buy her own health insurance and/or pay her own doctor bills with money she earned by working. She doesn't want our health care system to change, and insists that if I want a different system I should move to one of those countries that has it. I tried to remind her that, prior to 1965, there was no Medicare- which she is now covered by- and asked if she'd like to give up her Medicare since she doesn't support government-run programs. No response, other than a reiteration that she worked for everything she has; I guess this means she is entitled to Medicare.
The bottom line is, these are the types of people that- no matter how much you try to use logic with them- will never change. They aren't at all moved by the statistics of 22,000 deaths annually, either.
Single payer would be paid with income tax money. Tax money is money collected on work-hours. How does single payer not represent those who 'worked for everything'?
Hi NMLib. Thank you for your thoughtful reply and for sharing your story. What's even more bizarre is when I hear these old malcontents scream out, "Keep the government out of my medicare!". I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/get-your-goddamn-governme_b_252326.html
Thank you cc1944. I always enjoy Bob Cesca's perspectives. He knows how to give the wing nuts a nice steaming cup of STFU.
I wonder how many of the seniors on Medicare oppose single payer, Medicare, for all- and make such stupid comments- whether publicly or privately. I know a lot of uninsured people (including myself) and insured who pay way too much, who would love to step up and take the government-run health care they prefer not to have.
Town Hall, Blue Dogs, and Republicans actually support Obamacare. The Democrat Party just wants to pass some stupid legislation and then conflate it as "health care reform". However, if the public was not distracted by fake opposition, they would have seen the FRAUD that it really is and joined us in protesting for single payer health care. Obama is following the same tricks Ronnie Raygun and Dubya did flying all over the country and flooding the airwaves to campaign for their sleazy propositions. One new addition Obama appears to be adding. He's counting on more Obamabots to troll the progressives sites and disrupt people discussing the truth about his fraudulent proposal. I'm not even talking about the ones that engage in physical violence when you try to question any of his policies or issues. I cannot believe that even Kucinich is falling for this fraud ! The Town Hall mob is just a fake and a mere distraction to keep the dumbshow rolling on.
Jennifer, that's an interesting way of looking at that even if I cannot believe it since it doesn't make sense to go through all that trouble faking a protest just to get a bad bill to pass. I am not sure I understand what you're saying but I guess I need to read more here.
Stanley,
Newt Gingrich laid out the GOP modern philosophy in the 90s. "Go negative early, become loud and agressive and never back down or admit you are wrong on anything."
Now that's one pole. The other pole is the effete, polite, heavens to mergetroy democrats who "love the people".
This is a food fight. It's a hollywood wrestling match. It's theater.
WHY? It doesn't make sense to spend all that money to game the politics for a crappy bill?
Of course it makes sense. It's all about money and making more of it WITHOUT accepting responsibility or blame.
1) The Repubs are going to lose anyway so they fight as dirty as possible.
2) The Demos (the other half of the same corporation owned party) will claim they got the best bill they could for the people.
3) The Insurance corporations will laugh all the way to the bank because the Democratic bill is setting the stage for TOTAL MONOPOLY PRICING by the big Insurance pigs (I.E. they set the rates; if you can't pay, the government foots part of the bill by jacking up taxes--Heads the insurance corps win, tails you lose). The highest office in our land is not political office. Lobbyist multimillionaire is where ex-congresspeople reach the heights these days.
Remember, they are using our desperate need for better health care to justify giving us WORSE care and pay more for the little we get. From the profit motive point of view, it makes perfect sense to hide their tracks because this is immorality of the first order and the money is great but they don't want to be held liable for all the deaths they will most surely cause. That could get expensive..
Do you see it now?
Uncle Stan, what I'm trying to say is that the bribers are trying to frame other groups as the culprits for trying to block what's really a phony illusion of reform. Without those boogeymen and fake protests, more people would be able to wake up and hunt down the monied elites currently making a clean getaway with a scam package which does nothing to cover everyone but at the same time, tax everyone and give big insurance/pharma more money to screw us all some more.
Karen Ignagni — the President and CEO of America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) — reiterated insurers’ commitment to reforming the health insurance marketplace:
"That’s what people want. They want to be in. They don’t want to be rejected because of preexisting conditions, and they want to make sure they have continuity of care. We’ve committed to that. That’s what our industry is doing. We are one of the first to step up and offer real change that affected our industry. And we’re still committed to that."
While the insurance industry has publicly supported regulations that would guarantee everyone coverage and outlaw pre-exising condition exclusions, Ignagni may be overstating the industry’s commitment to so-called “market reform.” On June 16, despite Ignagni pledges of commitment, insurance executives from UnitedHealth Group, Assurant, and WellPoint when questioned by Congressman Mark Stupak (MI) specifically refused to “commit” to ending the controversial practice of rescinding coverage after an applicant files a medical claim.
Obviously they intend to go on taking our money and then screwing us. Until now, the government hasn't passed a law requiring that we submit to this screwing.
BTW, Kane Jeeves, I've long seen that most people don't make rational decisions. So forget facts, figures and logic. I think it's better to listen to what they want and believe, agree with them, and then talk about how to get to what they want. Basically most of us want the same things (Libertarians excluded), so if we stick to what we want in common, and stay away from where we don't agree, we can get somewhere. The only people who won't listen to what single payer offers are right wing Republicans, and we all know they are a shrinking minority, and Libertarians. They're outvoted.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
If Obama doesn't get this right, he's through. But maybe just being known as the first African American president (albeit for one term) is good enough for him.
I can only imagine Hillary vs Palin in 2012. After a failing healthcare debacle, Palin will eat her for lunch.
The democrats better get on it & get single payer on the table --and get it passed. What they have now is not going to do it.
The Democratic Party is NOT, in any real way, a "left" party. It is a party with a large left constituency; one that has utterly failed to organize themselves effectively to either 1. seize control of the party, or 2. dessiminate and popularize left-progressive ideas and ideals. To think that somehow a Democratic presidential candidate pre-selected by party elites is going to fight to enact left-progressive policies for which left-progressive "activists" haven't built a solid base of support, is to engage in an egregious act of self deception. Ain't gonna happen.
The right is mobilizing its fascist elements to try to squash health care reform because the Democrats CANNOT be allowed to achieve ANYTHING--lest of all anything that might benefit and therefore be popular with the common people. The R's are literally fighting for their political lives, so, of course, ANYTHING GOES.
We have to point out, over and over again, that this is the Republicans' odious, anti-democratic strategy. We have to point out, over and over again, that they're using fear-mongering and lies to attempt to stampede citizens to oppose any substantive health care reform. We have to point out, over and over again, that enhanced Medicare for all will cost the average citizen A LOT LESS than they're currently paying for their health care.
The right is using the same lies, presented in much the same manner, that they used to kill off the Clinton's attempt to reform the American health care system. If we can't more effectively counter their distortions and propaganda, they just might get away with it--again.
How to solve this problem - have you heard about the new American Public Care Trust Fund?
A variation: $50/month x 130 million taxpayers = $6.5 billion/month. Less than your monthly cable or cell bill; 5 packs of smokes in NYC.
For $6.5 billion/month - walk in, get treated, sign something, walk out, anytime, anywhere universal health care for 130 million Americans. All others who wish to participate, $50/month. Leave Medicare/caid alone, piggy-back on that system.
As our best, brightest and most altruistic work that, say, $10 billion/month, we're turning our health care system into a basic cost/plus operation: the APCTF pays costs plus 5%. No more 30% profits some drug cos earn, or 17% some health insurers earn - 5%, guaranteed, across the board.
If someone can't be satisfied by 5% guaranteed profits then that's just tough toenails. There are plenty who can - go find another line of work. Same for APCTF staff - 5% raise/year guaranteed, no salary lower than $12/hour or more than $190,000/year.
No more crazies at town halls, no more town halls, no more wasting time w/false debates, and, the best part: you wake up every morning with the knowledge that, no matter what happens, you'll receive top treatment, no questions asked.
Because the concept of our health care as a profit center is no longer on the table.
There's a larger problem here - people don't trust anyone anymore and they certainly don't trust "evidence". I had a long involved discussion where I presented article after article, links, video, etc. about how these mobs are just tools of various right-wing groups. The response I got over and over was "that's just liberal spin". From a cool-aid drinking rightie I would expect that. My discussion was with a fairly well-informed Independent.
So how do you deal with rabid dogs who don't believe in evidence? Unfortunately, I think the Bush/neocon forces knew how. For one thing, I don't think presenting facts and figures works.
KJ;I understand what you are saying and have no doubt of your facts but what I was thinking while taking my daily walk was;what if the dims and repugs are working together and using these "protesters" to push the agenda of no to any bill so that people will rally to obama's position and the politicians who vote for it can skate free by saying the majority want his bill.We will get screwed if this piece of shit is passed and wont even get a kiss.Tony
I believe that only statistics, fairly presented, can win the debate for the change that is needed in this country. I spout statistics whenever I can. But, many people will take a single anecdote to an entire mouthful of statistics. They aren't trained to read under the statistics to the point being made.
Yesterday, my Mom told me that the problem with America is that her people are lazy. I told her that American's work longer hours than anyone else in the developed world, and that they are more productive with their hours than anyone else. That left her gasping to defend her GOP-gifted talking point. Sometimes, statistics can work.
Ubrew, I recently ran across a saying which helped me understand why my hours of persuasive arguments, statistics, facts and research have only served to annoy and irritate my many right wing family members (your mother is an exception, and that probably only temporary and because she loves you. ). Quite apart from the fact that anyone can dispute where and how statistics are gathered is this: “You can’t by reason persuade a person to change an opinion that was not arrived at by reason.”
This does not make things hopeless. Statistics alone cannot persuade. Statistics alone cannot win a struggle. But they can fortify and arm us. They can to let our congresspeople know that we are awake (which could be either a frightening or a heartening prospect to them ), and then fortify us to let congresspeople know clearly that we will not vote for them if they continue to close the doors to genuine health care reform.
Your mom must be a logical, reasonable person. Unfortunately, too many on the right (and even those who consider themselves "centrists") believe what they want to believe. You can give them all the well-researched statistics you want, from the most unbiased, credible of sources, and they still soak up the nonsense spoon fed to them on a daily basis by rightwing pundits and MSM.
yer mom was wrong and right. Americans work too hard, living in a sleep-deprived haze that emulates intellectual laziness. You simply can't wrap you head around statistics and think rationally if you're working 60+ hrs a week only to have to choose between food or bills or rent. you can only react to emotion, and then only the survival emotions -- fear and anger.
This is the way the Oligarchs want you: exhausted, scared and angry.
One question;are any of these protesters legit?this bill is a big payday for insurance companies.Tony
Krugman sez: "... if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail."
***
Obama's (electoral) supporters were plenty inspired. But when they stood up to be heard, he told them to get the hell away from the table and free up some chairs for the supporters who really count.
There is no "health care reform" under discussion. The debate now is simply about how many zeroes to include on the check being donated to corporate welfare.
I find no end of amusement in the way the starry-eyed, pie-in-the-sky Obama supporters bought the whole 'Change You Can Believe In(tm)' PR schlock hook, line, and sinker.
These people are now outraged that he has turned on them and dashed their hopes faster than a two dollar hooker. Come on people. He's a politician. While he was a junior senator he supported almost every measure the Bush junta enacted. He is beholden to the corporations who funded his presidential run. He's just repaying the 'quid' for their 'pro quo'.
I saw this coming in the early days of the campaign.
Walk in peace.
It's why I voted for Ralph, thus 'wasting' my vote. How are you doing now, ye Democrats. Was your vote wasted?
My two cents:
By the way the populace is being manipulated by the Corporations and think tanks and Astro-turf groups, sooner or later, someone is going to die. There will be some nut who will be packing a gun into a crowded, emotionally charged space, and, believing he is right, will open fire.
That act will touch off a wave of attack and counter attack that will result in a general state of disorder and tit for tat retaliation.
The right wing talk radio blow hards will yammer about how awful it was for the person who died, but didn't they really have it coming by trying to push a 'nasty, commie, kill yer grand-dad' heathcare platform on the populace? The left will retaliate with it's usual calls for the heads of those responsible, but will have no real answers to the problem.
The moneyed elite at the top who engineered the entire scenario will laugh. And get still richer. And the government, who have been looking for an excuse to enact the darker aspects and measures of the US PATRIOT act will smile with glee, and down comes the boot of Martial Law.
Which will just push the right wing idiots into screaming about how the new black president is now revealed as a commie monster, and it's now time to take to the streets and commit those acts of petty revenge that have been roiling in their heads for all these years.
Those outside the US will watch in wonder, as the US goes into the Second Civil War, pitting rich and connected against the poor and disenfranchised, with the body public being used in the most venal way possible by both sides.
And all for the lies of the elite.
It's kinda cloudy and dreary this morning where I live. Anyway, thanks for the day-brightener.
I only wish there would be counter attacks from the left. But we are a long way from that.
I believe that the doctors who stood up for single payer could count. It's a shame that the Democrat Party arrested them and not against the Town Hallers. On a related note, last night, two Obamacare supporters were arrested for attacking a man. Here is video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w
At the same event, an Obama supporter punched a girl in the face. Video being sent to the police. I must ask: Who's the real angry mob?
How can it be that the Mass Class Slugs don't the word with all the above verbage.
Insulting the people you want to activate is counter productive or do you consider yourself their superior.
Maybe the message is that continually turning to Gv't and being continually disappointed is akin to "Insanity is doing the same thing......"
Maybe really limited Gv't would better serve. The more Gv't is involved in private/commercial life the more people/groups devote resources to direct/minimize Gv'ts impact.