He hit the right notes during his swing through Iraq, but his plans for that other war could mean trouble.
Barack Obama's Afghanistan and Iraq policies are mirror images of each other. Obama wants to send 10,000 extra U.S. troops to Afghanistan, but wants to withdraw all American soldiers and Marines from Iraq on a short timetable. In contrast to the kid gloves with which he treated the Iraqi government, Obama repeated his threat to hit at al-Qaida in neighboring Pakistan unilaterally, drawing howls of outrage from Islamabad.
But Obama's pledge to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan will not be easy to fulfill. While coalition troop deaths have declined significantly in Iraq, NATO casualties in Afghanistan are way up. By shifting emphasis from Iraq to Afghanistan, would a President Obama be jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
During the Baghdad stop of his ongoing overseas tour, the convergence between the worldview of the presumptive Democratic nominee and that of his Iraqi hosts provided some embarrassing moments for the Bush administration. Obama and his traveling companions, Senate colleagues Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., and Jack Reed, D-R.I., issued a statement Tuesday after a day of consultations with Iraqi politicians and U.S. military commanders, affirming the need to respect Iraqi aspirations for a "timeline, with a clear date, for the redeployment of American combat forces." By then, in an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki had already expressed support for Obama's proposal to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq within 16 months of his inauguration next January.
Although al-Maliki's spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, attempted to soothe ruffled GOP feathers by suggesting the Der Spiegel interview was mistranslated, al-Dabbagh came clean while Obama was in Baghdad on Monday. He confirmed that the Iraqi government hoped U.S. troops would be withdrawn within two years. Obama was thus able, in his joint statement with Reed and Hagel, to cite Iraqi attitudes for his own stance: "The prime minister ... stated his hope that U.S. combat forces could be out of Iraq in 2010."
In general, Obama's policies toward Iraq synchronize neatly with the aspirations of the Shiite-dominated elected Iraqi government, with an affirmation of the need to gain the consent of the Iraqis for any status-of-forces agreement with the U.S., and with a far greater emphasis on addressing the humanitarian crisis provoked by the U.S. invasion. On leaving al-Maliki's office, Obama was able to call his consultations with the prime minister "very constructive."
By comparison, Obama's criticisms of Bush administration policy toward Afghanistan and Pakistan, and his determination to make those countries the centerpiece of his foreign policy, are more problematic. Obama's determination to put down the tribal insurgencies in northwestern Pakistan and in southern Afghanistan reveals basic contradictions in his announced policies. His plans certainly have the potential to ruffle Afghan and Pakistani feathers, and have already done so in Pakistan.
On July 13, Obama criticized Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai on CNN, saying, "I think the Karzai government has not gotten out of the bunker and helped organize Afghanistan and [the] government, the judiciary, police forces, in ways that would give people confidence." Although the remark had the potential to make for awkward moments between Karzai and Obama during their meeting Sunday, it was welcomed by the independent Afghan press, which applauded the senator for bucking the "self-centered" policies of Bush and his knee-jerk support of Karzai.
After Obama met with Karzai, reporters asked his aide, Humayun Hamidzada, if the criticism had come up. He tried to put the best face on issue, saying the Afghan government did not see the comment as critical, but as a fair observation, since it had in fact been tied down fighting terrorism.
Less forgiving were the politicians in Pakistan, who reacted angrily to Obama's comments on unilaterally attacking targets inside that country. The Democratic presidential hopeful told CBS on Sunday, "What I've said is that if we had actionable intelligence against high-value al-Qaida targets, and the Pakistani government was unwilling to go after those targets, that we should." He added that he would put pressure on Islamabad to move aggressively against terrorist training camps in the country's northwestern tribal areas.
Pakistan, a country of 165 million people, is composed of six major ethnic groups, one of them the Pashtuns of the northwest. The Pakistani Taliban are largely drawn from this group. The more settled Pashtun population is centered in the North-West Frontier province, with its capital at Peshawar. Between the NWFP and Afghanistan are badlands administered rather as Native American reservations are in the U.S., called the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, with a population of some 3 million. These areas abut Pashtun provinces of Afghanistan, also a multiethnic society, but one in which Pashtuns are a plurality.
The tribal Pashtuns of the FATA no man's land, a third of which is classified as "inaccessible" by the Pakistani government, have sometimes given shelter to al-Qaida or Afghan Taliban militants. Some of the Pashtun tribesmen themselves have turned militant, and have been responsible for suicide bombings at police checkpoints inside Pakistan. They are also accused of attacking targets across the border in Afghanistan and of giving refuge to Afghan Taliban who conduct cross-border raids.
The governor of the North-West Frontier province, Owais Ghani, immediately spoke out against Obama, saying that the senator's remarks had the effect of undermining the new civilian government elected last February. Ghani warned that a U.S. incursion into the northwestern tribal areas would have "disastrous" consequences for the globe.
The governor underlined that a "war on terrorism" policy depended on popular support for it, and that such support was being leeched away by U.S. strikes on the Pakistan side of the border and by statements such as Obama's. A recent American attack mistakenly killed Pakistani troops who had been sent to fight the Pakistani Taliban at American insistence. The Pakistani public was furious. Ghani complained, "Candidate Obama gave these statements; I come out openly and say such statements undermine support, don't do it."
The NWFP governor is responsible for Pakistani counterinsurgency efforts in his province and in the neighboring tribal regions. He is well thought of in Pakistan because of his successes in Baluchistan province, which he governed for five years prior to January of this year, where he combined political negotiations with militants and targeted military action when he felt it necessary. He firmly subordinated the military strategy to civilian politics and negotiations. That is, Ghani is a politician with long experience in dealing with tribal insurgencies.
Obama's aggressive stance, on the other hand, could be counterproductive. The Illinois senator had praised the Pakistani elections of last February, issuing a statement the next day saying, "Yesterday, a moderate majority of the Pakistani people made their voices heard, and chose a new direction." He criticized the Bush administration, saying U.S. interests would be better served by "advancing the interests of the Pakistani people, not just Pakistan's president."
Yet the parties elected in February in Pakistan are precisely the ones demanding negotiations with the tribes and militants of the northwest, rather than frontal military assaults. Indeed, it is the Bush administration that has pushed for military strikes in the FATA areas. Obama will have to decide whether he wants to risk undermining the elected government and perhaps increasing the power of the military by continuing to insist loudly and publicly on unilateral U.S. attacks on Pakistani territory.
Nor is it at all clear that sending more U.S. troops to southern Afghanistan can resolve the problem of the resurgence of the Taliban there. American and NATO search-and-destroy missions alienate the local population and fuel, rather than quench, the insurgency. Resentment over U.S. airstrikes on innocent civilians and wedding parties is growing. Brazen attacks on U.S. forward bases and on institutions such as the prison in the southern city of Kandahar are becoming more frequent. To be sure, Obama advocates combining counterinsurgency military operations with development aid and attention to resolving the problem of poppy cultivation. (Afghan poppies are turned into heroin for the European market, and the profits have fueled some of the Taliban's resurgence.) Stepped-up military action, however, is still the central component of his plan.
Before he jumps into Afghanistan with both feet, Obama would be well advised to consult with another group of officers. They are the veterans of the Russian campaign in Afghanistan. Russian officers caution that Afghans cannot be conquered, as the Soviets attempted to do in the 1980s with nearly twice as many troops as NATO and the U.S. now have in the country, and with three times the number of Afghan troops as Karzai can deploy. Afghanistan never fell to the British or Russian empires at the height of the age of colonialism. Conquering the tribal forces of a vast, rugged, thinly populated country proved beyond their powers. It may also well prove beyond the powers even of the energetic and charismatic Obama. In Iraq, he is listening to what the Iraqis want. In Pakistan, he is simply dictating policy in a somewhat bellicose fashion, and ignoring the wishes of those moderate parties whose election he lauded last February.
Salon contributor Juan Cole is a professor of modern Middle Eastern and South Asian history at the University of Michigan and the author of "Napoleon's Egypt: Invading the Middle East."
Copyright ©2008 Salon Media Group, Inc
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57 Comments so far
Show AllHint: A great many Bin Laden family members secretly flown out of U.S. right after 911, despite nation-wide no fly zone.
Hint: U.S. in negociations with Taliban re- Afghanistan oil pipeline until talks suddenly broke down. Then 911 took place.
Hint: Bush family and Bin Laden family intertwined in high level business dealings forever and a day.
There's always an assumption that all Afghan Pushtuns are Taliban supporters. This is not the case as many Pushtuns cannot stand them. I'm sick of hearing that as are my Pushtun friends. This assumption is actually really offensive. http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com/2006/12/politics-of-afghan-war-in-west...
Most Afghans do not back RAWA. RAWA is viewed by many Afghan men and women alike as too radical and too Pro-Communist. Several Afghan women's rights leaders have been ticked off by them. http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=what_do_afghan_women_want
Afghans want security and peace first then economic development. They want the war lords put on trial and punished.
Obama is an imperialist and his policy will fail.
We will have a black quarterback but he will be running the same plays out of the corporate playbook.
dcbeltway--thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, CommonDreams wouldn't allow me to include this url (I've truncated it [now I've completely deleted it to try and get this posted]) to a map of the Afghan/Pakistan region that shows the distribution of the Pushtun ethnic region that helps to explain my POV. As for listening to Afghani POVs, I am a backer of RAWA and have read their accounts. If I implied that Afghanis are pro-Pakistan, that was not my intent. Rashid documents the connection between the ISI and the Taliban.
If the Taliban are not indigenous, what explains the alliances between Afghani Pushtuns and the Taliban?
As for what the Afghans want, I presume they want to be left to their own devices, which is what I'm suggesting, coupled with no-strings reparation-like economic aid and technical assistance that would allow them to rebuild. But even that presupposes a politically united Afghanistan mostly free from the corruption and warlordism that's plagued it for several decades, some would argue centuries. Perhaps you could answer with your own policy proposal?
I'm trying to reply to you dcbeltway, but CommonDreams won't allow my post. I was able to add the body during editing, but it dissappeared--again.
karlof1 the Taliban are not an indigenous reaction. They are Pakistan's proxies and private army. Please read my links. Ahmed Rashid is a Pakistani journalist..not an Afghan. Why don't you people ever ask the Afghans what they want and what their point of view is. Trust me its not pro-Pakistan.
As with the Iraqi Holocaust, the root of the problems in both Afghanistan and Pakistan are Imperial ambitions of first the British, then Russia, and now the USA. It seems clear how the US can turn the situation around when one reads this quote from the link I posted above:
"Listen to Mustafa Abu al-Yazeed - a senior al-Qaeda commander in Afghanistan, in a very rare interview with Pakistan's Geo TV, shot in Khost, in eastern Afghanistan.
"At this stage this is our understanding - that there is no difference between the American people and the American government itself. If we see this through sharia [Islamic] law, American people and the government itself are infidels and are fighting against Islam. We have to rely on suicide attacks which are absolutely correct according to Islamic law. We have adopted this way of war because there is a huge difference between our
material resources and our enemy's, and this is the only option to attack our enemy."
"The interview is not only about defensive jihad. Yazeed delves into classic al-Qaeda strategy - inciting a cross-border Taliban jihad against the US and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) forces and blasting a state, in this case the government of Pakistan. According to him, "Sadly, it is the government of Pakistan which has most damaged our cause. President [Pervez] Musharraf violated the trust of Muslims and contributed to the destruction of the Islamic government of Afghanistan ... Musharraf and his government have made big mistakes, there is no such example in other Islamic states."
Clearly, the perceived Imperial jihad by the US government against Islam is assumed to be supported by all US citizens (it's not, of course) and forms the rationale for al-Qaeda's existence. The "mistakes" made by Musharraf are primarily aligning itself with the US. As pointed out by Dr Cole, Pakistani-based political initiatives have reaped the most success in dealing with the reasons for the Taliban's existence, and the Taliban's existence provides the base for al-Qaeda. Thus, eliminating the political reasons for the Taliban's existence will go a long way in containing and allowing for the elimination of al-Qaeda.
But even more is needed from Obama to make any headway. Foremost, the US must exit Iraq and provide VERY visible reparations to the Iraqi people. Second, the economic war against Iran must end. Third, US military presence in ALL Islamic countries must be scaled back to no more than advisors--the bases MUST go. Fourth, after taking the first three steps, the US must solicit the help of Islam's leaders in waging jihad against Islam's infidels--al-Qaeda. There are currently no sustained ringing indictments made by Islamic leaders against al-Qaeda that I know of that would help the political process because of the wars the US is waging against several Islamic countries--not just one tiny group of Islamic heretics. In other words, the War of Terror's Imperial goals MUST be completely dropped--indeed, publicly disowned in forcefully visible ways.
Such a set of policy steps will be met with great resistance by US Imperial planners and their political and industrial allies. But it's very clear the sledgehammer approach has failed and the financial drain is untenable. Internationally, the USA can no longer afford to be viewed--correctly--as desiring global dominance. The hardest nut to crack is the US relationship with Israel. The global community as expressed through its UN votes desires Israel to be based on its 1967 borders and justice provided to the Palestinian people, which must consist of massive economic reparations paid by their oppressors, the US and Israel.
If al-Qaeda's defeat is really wanted by the world's governments, then the fundamental factors that provide for al-Qaeda's existence must be addressed and solved. The one power on the planet that's targeted by al-Qaeda is the US Empire because it alone is responsible for the factors underlying al-Qaeda's existence and persistence. Remove those factors, and al-Qaeda will eventually, and quickly, shrivel and die.
In dealing with the Taliban, I wonder how many policy planners read Ahmed Rashid's book about them? Judging from US actions, few. I would posit that the Taliban are not the enemy. Rather, they are somewhat like Hezbollah in that they're an indigenous reaction to intolerable deprivation caused by external military occupiers who were able to find an external friend with monies in the Pakistani ISI, which wanted to use them for its own perverted reasons.
The enemy US citizens face here is in reality their/our own Empire, for as I explained above, without the US Empire as foe, al-Qaeda wouldn't exist. And as in Star Wars, the damage inflicted on innocents by the Empire only creates reinforcements, a la Luke Skywalker. So, there is really only one viable solution as I outlined above: Remove ALL military occupiers while providing political and economic stability, while exerting great efforts to contain and interdict drug and weapons movement through the outer border areas; and then let time take its course, which in this case means several generations. In other words, there is no quick fix, no panacea to solve this dilemma. And of course, all the other actions I mention above must take place too.
What I suggest amounts to Statesmanship, not the instant glorification most US elected Emperors seem to crave. The US Empire has created deep-seated, intractable problems with the Islamic world over the past two-plus generations that will not be solved by a few kind words and half-hearted gestures. In a Peak Oil world, we MUST have excellent relations with the Islamic world--that's where most of the remaining hydrocarbons are--so the relations we have with it tomorrow must be the polar opposite of today.
Pakistan and the ISI are the founders and funders of the Taliban people. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB97/index.htm
The Afghan-American community is actually strongly pro-Barack Obama because Barack has promised to hold Pakistan accountable for messing with Afghanistan. I married into that community so I hear of a lot of support there. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10258531335
Having used Negroponte's El Salvador death squad model in Iraq ... can we look forward to seeing the Colombian "model" of narco-terrorist intervention applied to Afghanistan ...
Having heard too many Obama supporters enthusiasm to "beefing up our troops in Afghanistan" regardless of the objective -- Taliban, Drugs, Nation Building, Bin Laden -- and knowing that the Republicans salivate at the prospect of punishing drug farmers -- seems like another Win/Win for the home team ... Will Barack Obama settle for Republican Lite or will he "have to" outdo them.
Yeah, I love the smell of defoliants in the morning ... and brisk crackle of burning crops ...
Afghanistan now is at a new peak of heroin production --
and as the British make clear --
"The US government and the Pakistanis just LOVE to sell
heroin" . . .
This is an issue we have to face and end this filthy,
phony Drug War.
McCain is a fool controlled by the neocon fascists.
Obama is doing exactly what Osama wants him to do-attack the tribal regions. The most likely consequence will be the increase of Taliban and Al-Queida recruits.
Vote Nader if you want to save this country from fascists and ruling elite shills.
While Juan Cole is right on about the dangers of an Afghan surge, he is a little off-key in my opinion in his characterization of the "just right" note of Obama's conversations with Iraqi government officials. It's too easy to forget that al-Maliki is an Iraqi who must answer ultimately to Iraqi expectations, especially those of Moqtada al-Sadr, who is arguably the most influential person in Iraq right now. al-Maliki can make nice with Obama all he wants and adjust his "timetables" to those of an American President, but whether this will be stood for by the Iraqi people at large and al-Sadr specifically is a very "open question" as they say. A couple of kind words between a couple of leaders doth not an agreement make.
Anyone who votes for a known liar does not deserve that vote, but deserves to be a slave of liars. Do not justify lies with any excuses. If the voter does not have principles, then do not expect the politcians to have any.
Why are we trying to defeat the Taliban again? We went to war in Afghanistan to effect a regime change, allegedly because they refused to hand over OBL (we know now that was not true, they just wanted to see our evidence first, remember, that evidence Powell promised to show everyone and was never delivered), and to root out Al Qaeda, which seems to have been done given, they fled to our ally in Pakistan.
Why after 7 years does the Afghan army have only 60,000 troops in which to use against the Taliban?. Why do we not tell Pakistan if any Al Qaeda in their territory cause any problems, they will be held responsible, and all options, including nuclear will be on the table?
Because we just want to keep troops in Afghanistan. Why? Most of Afghans poppy gets sent to Turkey with US air transports for the global drug trade that finances our many covert actions, its worth about 600 billion street value. Plus we need to be positioned for the coming war against Russia and perhaps China. And of course, the oil pipelines that will eventually get built after the DU does it's work and the genocide is finished.
The NYT has a Magazine preview ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/magazine/27AFGHAN-t.html?hp
>>>>>> Magazine Preview
Is Afghanistan a Narco-State?
By THOMAS SCHWEICH
The Taliban are not the only ones benefiting from the opium trade. Drug-related corruption pervades the Afghan government. A former Bush administration counternarcotics official explains the war within the war.<<<<<<
gee, sounds like Obama got the "early (change change change, regieme change is good for you) bird gets the (omnicient rainmaker) worm" vibe ... and is running with it.
Jaded Prole:
"Maybe Obama should seek advice from the Russians on his Afghanistan plans."
Haha, I guess it takes a Communist to advise an Obammunist eh? What a worthless Marxist Rock Star tool. Heck, he's almost as fun as the latest and greatest with Paris Hilton. Just about as ditzy too.
Good posts: Webwalk, JaReilly & Samson.
On this issue of withdrawal versus redeployment, I'm thinking the "real estate" mantra: "Location! Location! Location!" Suppose there are plans to heat things up in Iran, wouldn't it make sense to move the military so it's not a sitting duck when Iran retaliated? What if all this talk about redeploying troops just over the mountains and potentially out of easy shooting range is an act to preserve the US military? That and all the jazz about the US seizing its perch in the Asian world to tap those resources its insatiable nature for more craves?
Obama needs to educate himself regarding the geography of Afghanistan. It is not a place that can be conquered or dominated by an outside power. The mountains are too big, the valleys too isolated, the climate too harsh and the tribes too fierce.
Unless you have visited the Pashtun's lands you cannot imagine their ruggedness and isolation. I've been there, and I understand why the only thing we can go is admit our mistake and bring our army home.
UNOCAL's pipeline will never be built. The sooner we admit it and come home, the better off we will be.
puck twain
"I think though that they are what give his words credibility and usefulness - they show that every bit of Bush Co's words to the Nation are lies as to the chaos and "shock doctrine" that they have and are achieving."
I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Are you saying that because Cole supports/supported these wars he's a a more useful critic? I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
tj
"Prof. Cole makes a rare, but critical, factual error in the first sentence. Obama's plan does not call "…to withdraw all American soldiers and Marines from Iraq on a short timetable."
Regardless of whether one thinks it's rare for Cole to make a factual error, you correctly point out Cole's incorrect usage of the term 'withdrawal', when he actually means 'redeployment'. However, the appearance of that particular term is not rare in his commentary. I have read his blog for years and it appears consistently, frequently, and deliberately. He should be aware it's the wrong term. Many commentators have pointed this out to him, yet he continues to use it. Is this a surprise? I don't think so. He's a huge Obama supporter. He often tries to make it seem like their are bigger differences between McCain and Obama than there actually are.
speedtheplow ,
"We have to keep tearing down the myth of Afghanistan as "the good war". "
I agree. But see how much success you have posting that opinion on Juan Cole's Informed comment. Hope you have better luck than I did. I'd write comments like yours, but he would rarely, if ever, post them. However, ANY comment I wrote praising the troops (only to see if it would be posted) or Cole himself (ditto), was always posted. Anyone else have this experience?
It certainly sounds like Obama wants to keep the gravy train rolling for the war industry.
zzz - Thanks for those comments on Cole. I think though that they are what give his words credibility and usefulness - they show that every bit of Bush Co's words to the Nation are lies as to the chaos and "shock doctrine" that they have and are achieving.
"Barack Obama's Afghanistan and Iraq policies are mirror images of each other. Obama wants to send 10,000 extra U.S. troops to Afghanistan, but wants to withdraw all American soldiers and Marines from Iraq on a short timetable."
Prof. Cole makes a rare, but critical, factual error in the first sentence. Obama's plan does not call "...to withdraw all American soldiers and Marines from Iraq on a short timetable."
It is a plan to "redeploy" an undetermined number of U.S. troops to places both in-country and "over the horizon" in various unnamed neighboring countries and aboard U.S. ships in the area to "protect" undefined U.S. interests for an unstaed length of time.
It also calls for the indeterminate presence of U.S. forces at military bases around the country and a virtual annexation of the Green Zone, to be protected by U.S. forces and mercenaries.
It says nothing about the other mercenaries in the country.
Prof Cole's work is often brilliant and almost always correct. This error is truly remarkable and beyond comprehension to me.
When all the tooth-gnashing is over I will not vote FOR BO, but I probably will vote against McCain. If nothing else we'll get slightly better agency appointments, slightly better judicial appointments, slightly better alternative energy policies, slightly less aggressive attacks on civil liberties. But the idea that BO is saying and doing all this because "he has to win" is ludicrous to the point of delusional. Polls are running consistently at 60 to 70 % vs. the war. A sustained critique of the war wouldn't cost BO more than a few votes. Polls are running in favor of a big, sweeping energy reform. A sustained position in favor of a massive alternative energy program would probably add to BO's vote count, not subtract. Polls consistently run in favor of strong civil liberties protections even in with the "threat of terrorism". It is very unlikely the BO picked any net gain in votes with his unconscionable support of the "FISA compromise". So, how can his actions be excused as "doing what it takes to win", when he is taking positions in opposition to poll results that cross party, region and ethnicity demographics? Alienating majorities of voters and pissing off your activist base is "doing what it takes to win"???
The voters are not the audience for all this "centrist" game playing; the elites are and in recent weeks, BO has greatly stepped up his quiet, out-of-sight fund-raising among the big boys. He's been successful, raising millions quickly. It isn't even so much exactly which reactionary vagaries and ploys he mouths. It's that he is re-assuring the big boys that he is their boy, he is playing their game by their rules and the immense streams of public wealth which flow towards them will not be interrupted. Re-directed slightly but not interrupted.
The rest of us can take a flying flip. So, what it comes down to is this: With outright authoritarians Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalia poised to take a majority on the Supreme Court and smash whatever is left of the Constitution, who do you want picking the next justice or two? Or does it? Obama voted in favor of confirming Roberts (and Rice at the State Dept).
New Zealand, anyone?
We have to keep tearing down the myth of Afghanistan as "the good war". The Taliban did not attack us on 9-11. 9-11 was a criminal act, not an act of war . At least 6 of the alleged hijackers have turned up alive and well, so (even if 9-11 WASN'T an inside job) how do we know the perpetrators trained in Afghanistan? This war was planned BEFORE 9-11, and the entire war on terror is sham, meant to replace the cold war. Obama is full of crap, but I'm trying to talk myself into voting for the lesser of 2 weasels again, in the naive hope that a centrist corporate whore will not continue the fascist takeover now in progress, as McCane surely will.
The Democratic presidential hopeful told CBS on Sunday, "What I've said is that if we had actionable intelligence against high-value al-Qaida targets, and the Pakistani government was unwilling to go after those targets, that we should."
How about this:
What if Raul Castro said, "If we had actionable intelligence against high-value anti-Cuban targets in Miami,
and the American government was unwilling to go after those targets, then we should."
jlocke123 July 23rd, 2008 5:20 pm
"But seriously folks, we are trying to have vicious ad hominem rantings here:)"
Go ahead! I can't get through the day without one good juicy vicious ad hominem rant myself.
Juan Cole comes clean!
Keeping combat forces in forces in Iraq til 2010, then leaving 60,00 - 80,000 troops beyond that (Colin Kahl), while doing nothing to dismantle our bases, airfields, or embassy - "hits the right notes".
Notice with Afghanistan, Cole frames Obama's actions in terms of whether or not they would be effective in dealing with the Taliban, while never condemning the war in the first place. Will Cole stand up and demand and immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan?
Probably not.
Remember that Cole was an Afghan war supporter calling it ""the right war at the right time," on his own blog.
Recall that, unlike the "uninformed" readers of Common Dreams, Cole couldn't even bring himself to oppose the invasion of Iraq, stating that he had "mixed feelings"on the subject.
He's also a big "support the troops" guy, except he calls them "brave warriors" on his blog.
He doesn't support "out now", and has clearly stated so in his own withdrawal plan (which is even less of a withdrawal than Obama's plan). You can read his (non) withdrawal plan posted on his site on Monday, August 22, 2005.
It contains chestnuts like:
"For as long as the elected Iraqi government wanted it, the US would offer the new Iraqi military and security forces close air support in any firefight they have with guerrilla or other rebellious forces."
and
""With the agreement of the elected Iraqi government, the US would prevent any guerrilla force from fielding any large number of fighters for set piece battles."
and
"In addition to the service of its air forces, the US would offer targeted military aid to ensure the stability of the Iraqi government. It would help protect key political figures from assassination, and it would give the Iraqi government help in preventing pipeline sabotage so as to increase Iraqi petroleum revenues and strengthen the new government."
He frames his plan as an attempt to avoid civil war, while completely avoiding what any idiot can see, which is that his plan amounted to taking sides in a civil war. While also ignoring that the Iraqi Government is a puppet creation of the US.
Now he's peddling,
"Obama's aggressive stance, on the other hand, could be counterproductive."
Gee, you think? Is starting a new war, merely "counterproductive"?
What's the matter Mr. Cole? Would being an apologist for three wars be too much for you?
I've always liked Bruce Gagnon.
Interesting that he refers to a time before I learned my lesson. I learned it when I celebrated Clinton's in '92, only to watch him then implement the Republican dream agenda as President. So, its fascinating to see Mr. Gagnon take the same theme I think I now back a generation further to President Carter.
The Democrats have been pulling the same con for a long, long time.
The key points are these.
Obama clearly and openly supports the project of an American empire that dominates the world.
By neccessity, this includes support for all sorts of despicable policies like invading other countries, overthrowing other governments, assassinations, terror attacks (like the CIA's car bombs ... lately seen in Iran), torture, disappearing people, etc.
Obama's only claim is that Bush has made 'mistakes' in executing this policy. He has no objection to the goals of the policy. Obama only claims that he can better manage the evil empire than Bush\McCain.
For those who pay attention, instead of just assuming that Obama was wonderful and perfect, none of this is new. Obama has been saying all along in this campaign that "Iraq was the wrong war" and that "Afghanistan is the right war". He's clearly supported the Democratic plans in Congress that are falsely advertised as withdrawal but are really 'redeployments' in the region. Obama has clearly said for a long time that the troops he removes from Iraq would go to Afghanistan.
Even worse he's openly stated he'll expand the war to Pakistan. He openly called for invading Pakistan in the debates, and often he refers to "Afghanistan and Pakistan" as one and the same.
If you like war, vote Obama.
If you want peace, please vote for someone else.
Here's a good analysis from Bruce Gagnon of the Global Network:
********************
O-BUMMER
I had a phone call from a friend in Maine yesterday. He was very upset about the recent passage of the FISA surveillance bill in the Senate and wanted to know what should be done about it. He cares very much about civil liberties issues. He mentioned that he was disappointed that Obama had voted in favor of the bill.
I listened to him for some time. When I finally spoke I told him that I was losing patience with my progressive friends who keep complaining about how badly the Democrats performed (on Iraq occupation, possible Iran attack, no impeachment hearings, civil liberties, etc) and then turn right around and vote them back into office without a mumbling word.
He acknowledged that he, like many, has donated to Obama and volunteered for his campaign. He said he fears that John McCain would be a dangerous president - after all just look what McCain had said when he spoke at the recent AIPAC convention........
I told my friend that in the end the right to vote is a sacred thing. We each must be free to do what we have to do and friends must remain friends. But with that said I told him I needed to tell him a story.
I voted for Jimmy Carter when he ran for president (1977-1981) largely because of his statement during his campaign that the "arms race was a disgrace to the human race." Then he went and built the huge Trident nuclear submarine base in St. Marys, Georgia right on the Florida-Georgia border. I spent many days and nights protesting at this base in the years thereafter.
I told my friend that after the Vietnam War the American people were suffering from the "Vietnam syndrome" which meant the people were not eager for any more "foreign entangling alliances". David Rockefeller at the Trilateral Commission sent the executive director of that high-brow organization, Zbignew Brzezinski, out to find a fresh face, someone who could offer "change" to the public. He recruited Jimmy Carter, the unknown Georgia governor and peanut farmer, to run for president. With the support of this hidden elite Carter became president. I fell for the trap. Brzezinski became Carter's national security adviser and is the one who helped us arm the Taliban in Afghanistan so they could give the former Soviet Union their own version of a Vietnam quagmire. The U.S. has now built six permanent military bases in Afghanistan.
Zbignew Brzezinski went on to write a book called The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives that was published in the late 1980's or early 1990's. In this book Brzezinski talks about the importance of the Middle East and Central Asia because of their vast supplies of oil and natural gas. He says, "... But in the meantime, it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus of also challenging America. The formulation of a comprehensive and integrated Eurasian geostrategy is therefore the purpose of this book."
He continues, "In that context, how America 'manages' Eurasia is critical. Eurasia is the globe's largest continent and is geopolitically axial. A power that dominates Eurasia would control two of the world's three most advanced and economically productive regions. A mere glance at the map also suggests that control over Eurasia would almost automatically entail Africa's subordination, rendering the Western Hemisphere and Oceania geopolitically peripheral to the world's central continent. About 75% of the world's people live in Eurasia, and most of the world's physical wealth is there as well, both in its enterprises and underneath its soil. Eurasia accounts for 60% of the world's GNP and about three-fourths of the world's known energy resources."
How though, Brzezinski asks, will we be able to convince the American people to expend the enormous amount of money it would take to secure Eurasia on behalf of the American corporate empire? How can we talk the American people into giving up their favorite social programs (Medicare and Social Security) so that permanent bases can be established in this region in order to control the extraction of resources?
He answers the question by saying, "Moreover, as America becomes an increasingly multi-cultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat."
Translation - terrorism. The war on terror. Endless war to protect us from the dark, hard to find, cave dwelling forces of evil.
Today the American people are beginning to suffer from the Iraq and Afghanistan syndrome. Since 2001 we have been in a perpetual state of war which has been supported by both the Republicans and Democrats. How can we ever convince the American people to press on, to keep our feet in "Eurasia" when they have begun to show such a proclivity to tire of these foreign entanglements?
A new fresh face is needed.
I recently read an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski that was published in a British progressive journal. In the interview Brzezinski, who is now one of Obama's chief foreign policy advisers, brags that he had early on "vetted" the potential presidential candidate and was quite certain that he was the right man for the job at hand.
The official definition of the word vetted: to evaluate for possible approval or acceptance.
I told my friend that the fresh face of change was a facade. A false, superficial, or artificial appearance. A trick. A lie. A humiliation.
I told my friend that I cannot spend my life doing the work I do and then turn around and betray my own being by voting for someone that I know in my heart is pulling a fast one on us - pulling the wool over our eyes.
The great black abolitionist and orator Frederick Douglass said it back in the 1880's. "I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence."
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Posted By Bruce Gagnon to Organizing Notes at 7/18/2008 08:50:00 AM
Who REALLY controls the flow of opium from Afghanistan, that creates the 90% of the wirld's heroine supply?
Look back at Iran/contra for some hints. JMHO.
Elmysterio, Thomas More
Why don't you two get a room! (just kidding, just kidding)
But seriously folks, we are trying to have vicious ad hominem rantings here:)
I still love this myth that Obama is really somehow something different from what he says he is. Essentially, the Obama supporters are telling people that they should first make up a picture in their own mind of what a perfect President would be. Then they should assume that this is who Obama really is. Then they should vote for Obama.
What garbage? I've watched the Democrats become ever more desparate in every campaign in trying to find ways to get their traditional base to vote for their modern pro-war, pro-corporate, basically-Republican candidates, but this one really takes the cake.
The American experiment in Democracy has degenerated such that a citizen only gets one chance to influence the system in any way. That's when election day rolls around and they get a chance to vote. Between elections, its all about the lobbyists and special interests.
So, here are the Democrats telling you to throw away that one little bit of influence you get and to waste it supporting a candidate that opposes everything we believe in and supports many policies we despise.
I suppose they are starting to give up on trying to con us into believing the Democrats are really an opposition. So this campaign they've rolled out the 'fantasy candidate' strategy.
What is truly amazing is that anyone could be so naive as to believe it.
Hmmm doug, where have you been for years?
"It is not certain that the politics of Pakistan and Obama are necessarily at odds with one another. Bhutto did come out against the Taliban when she was alive. I would give the Pakistani people credit for being able to distinguish between progress and breakdown in negotiations, but Bin Laden is not a citizen of either Afghanistan or Pakistan. And if the Taliban want to run for office why haven't they? What would the true vote totals be? What problem does the Taliban have with democracy? It's not like they don't have some Pakistani military support. The people won in 2008, not Musharraf's Muslim League and the Taliban"
Just like the "democratic" elctions for Diem?
elmysterio July 23rd, 2008 4:36 pm
Thomas: Ah it's all baby steps buddy… now if you could just get over the whole "blame the victim" thing when dealing with Israel/Palestine….
I'm still laughing!
Seriously, I simply am not sure about that problem. I don't know who's to blame but I suspect the Palestinians are the victim of both Israel and Arab governments. I'm looking. I'm looking!
Translation: BO is just promising his Big Defense (phony terror) war profiteer "campaign contributors" that he'll keep the billions rollin in one way or the other.
"Pakistan's notorious Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency" is a state-within-a-state in Pakistan that exerts influence in every facet of Pakistan's being. The ISI is/was hand-in-glove with Musharrafs military as well as the military leaders before him. They are responsible for creating the Taliban with our help and for fomenting insurgencies in India and Afghanistan as well. The ISI needs to be completely disbanded as a first step towards peace and stability in the region.
U.S. involvement in the region exacerbates the festering wound. We need to stop funding the Pakistani Military and ISI first. Obama should listen to whats happening in the region before he shoots his mouth off. More troops will NOT solve the problem. The regional countries Russia, Iran, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan and China to an extent can help solve the Taliban conundrum.
- The Pushtu majority needs to be politically empowered in Afghanistan.
- Pakistan should stop its clandestine support to Jihadi (LET, HUM, LEJ etc) groups that cause such havoc in Kashnmir.
- The U.S. and NATO should remove all their troops from the area and should instead pressure Pakistan into dismantling its own state-sponsored terrorist infrastructure.
- Regional powers (Russia, Iran, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan and China) should come together to solve the issues with pan-islamic political and social alienation.
Thomas: Ah it's all baby steps buddy... now if you could just get over the whole "blame the victim" thing when dealing with Israel/Palestine.... ;)
Afghanistan
Alexander stopped short of this land
Ganges khan could not conquer it
British failed miserably
Russian failed miserably
US has already spent 7 years fighting
I do not think they will succeed (even with their well equipped army)
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JG24Ak01.html
The above linked item should be read along with the Cole piece.
satr9prodxns July 23rd, 2008 4:23 pm
You have a point about the idiots he has, but watch it change. Don't forget where he was at this time last year.
And if he takes Romney or Huck as his VP, look out. Especially Romney.
elmysterio July 23rd, 2008 4:08 pm
Though I like growth and really appreciate the accolade...I haven't changed at all on this. Did you think I thought we should have attacked Iraq or that we should stay there?
In any case...thanks....grow, learn or die as my history Prof's used to say. I appreciate your kind thoughts.
@thomas more
"Don't make a mistake about John McCain, he's relentless and he smart enough."
don't mistake John McCain with the lobbyists running his campaign
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(into the ground)
Thomas More Said: "Amen. Time to start disengaging and come home"
Thomas! Way to go man. This is kinda off topic, but I just want to point out that I'm starting to notice the growth that has been happening in you since you first started posting here at CD... Seems as though the scales are starting to fall from your eyes and you're beginning to see more clearly. Good on ya man.
jareilly said: "Instead we got "change we can believe in", rather than actual change you can see, feel, measure, or prove."
That's an excellent statement. Wraps it up quite nicely doesn't it. Good job.
ubrew12: Couple things wrong about your post:
"I want to get OBL and Al-Qaida"
OBL, as you call him, had NOTHING to do with 9/11... the video that shows him taking credit for 9/11 is a fake and he has issued a statement saying that they had nothing to do with 9/11. Don't you think that if he had done it, he'd be taking credit for it? After all, it was the world's most spectacular 'terrorist' attack.
"After 9-11, they refused the U.S. entry into the country to go after Al-Qaida. For this, they were driven from power."
That is not true. The Taliban simply requested to be shown evidence of Bin Laden's guilt before they would turn him over to the Americans. They made that offer a couple of times. The 'fact' that they refused entry to the US is a misnomer. They simply wanted the US to follow international law and request extradition properly by providing evidence.
Besides, there's a strong possibility that Bin Laden is already dead considering his ill health and all. It's pretty hard to get dialysis in the remote areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
What Afghanistan is REALLY about is 2 things.
1) Unicol's pipeline project. The US had been in negotiations with the Taliban government over Unicol building a LNG pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan. The Taliban wanted more in transit fees than Unicol was willing to pay, therefore, the deal fell through. Lo and behold, shortly after the US invasion, the pipeline project is back on, under Unicol's terms.
2) A military presence in the Caspian basin region. This area is a hotbed of energy resources, and considering the global depletion of such resources is quickly coming to a head, the US will be fighting more 'resource' wars to prevent Russia, China and India from controlling those resources. Afghanistan gives the US a good foothold in the region, just as Iraq gives the US a foothold in the Persian Gulf.
"It's time to call a halt to the usage of American soldiers to secure an oil future for the Western World."
Amen. Time to start disengaging and come home.
satr9prodxns July 23rd, 2008 3:08 pm
Don't make a mistake about John McCain, he's relentless and he smart enough.
I don't want a more efficiently run empire.
He needs to appear tougher than McCain to get the frightened sheeple to vote for him.
What he will do if he gets in is meet with all parties and talk, something Bomb McCain will not do. The troops there would give Obama some leverage in talks without turning them loose on killing missions that would escalate the conflict.
An Obama administration would be diplomatic, not like a trigger happy McBush administration that wants to win at any cost if it takes 100 years and destroys US.
Jaded Prole, "Maybe Obama should seek advice from the Russians on his Afghanistan plans."
Maybe we should skip the phony War on Terror postering in proxie countries... and instead go straight for the invasion of Russia and China.
dougnwagner - your comment is an argument AGAINST your apparent position. If in fact, lots of Pakistan's people, from their ruling elites, to the local leaders and grassroots citizens do oppose the Taliban, the ISI and general violent Pashtun tribalism, then they don't need Barack Obama's war-mongering and thoroughly patronizing tough talk. And they don't need our missiles destroying their wedding parties or our imperial war contingencies threatening their future. They need to mobilize against these forces. And the US should provide lots of support and humanitarian aid, but we should not be running military operations inside their sovereign territory on the basis of "actionable intelligence" or any other excuse. Cheney/Bush claimed plenty of "actionable intelligence" in Iraq.
Americans may be able to help Pakistanis in some useful way, but "The Empire" cannot help them, whether Obama or McCain is the enforcer.
The only way out of this is to call the "War on Terror" what it really is: an ad campaign for imperial conquest and domestic authoritarianism. John Edwards came around to the point of view. He denounced the phrase; said there was no such thing. If Clinton and Obama had done the same, they would have permanently changed the debate. But of course, they didn't. Instead we got "change we can believe in", rather than actual change you can see, feel, measure, or prove.
Maybe Obama was telling us something about himself and about us when he and his wormtongue advisors concocted that slogan.
Of course I want to get OBL and Al-Qaida but, regarding the Taliban, what exactly did those people do to us? Al-Qaida was always largely composed of Saudi's, Egyptians, Yemeni's: basically ARABS. The Taliban is composed of local Pashtun's, NOT Arabs. The Taliban is a popular, local movement with broad support among the Afghan people. Personally, I think the Taliban's ethics is abominable: but that doesn't mean I want American soldiers to be sacrificed to prevent the Taliban from becoming a powerful local independence movement, if they have broad local support in becoming so.
The Taliban are Afghan religious freaks who, for money, allowed Al-Qaida to operate their training camp in a remote corner of their country. After 9-11, they refused the U.S. entry into the country to go after Al-Qaida. For this, they were driven from power. So far, so good. But they STILL remain popular in the area. Why are we fighting them? To prevent another 911? To get at Al-Qaida? Both those reasons are highly suspect, since they've always been a local independence movement without international aspirations to terrorism. They AREN'T Al-Qaida.
The only reason we're trying to maintain a puppet government in Afghanistan is because we can control the oil pipeline there, bringing Central Asian oil to the Pakistani coastline. And THAT's not reason enough to sacrifice American soldiers and war funds. From the start, our desire for justice against Al-Qaida has been hijacked by oil-ploys in Iraq and now Afghanistan. It's time to call a halt to the usage of American soldiers to secure an oil future for the Western World.
No one can fairly say there's "no difference" between the 2 parties.
The Republicans are running a corporatist-militarist who won't defend the Constitution, and wants to emphasize the Iraq portion of the "War on Terror."
The Democrats, by contrast, offer a corporatist-militarist who won't defend the Constitution, and wants to emphasize the Afghanistan/Pakistan portion of the "War on Terror."
No one can honestly say that these 2 things are exactly the same.
It is not certain that the politics of Pakistan and Obama are necessarily at odds with one another. Bhutto did come out against the Taliban when she was alive. I would give the Pakistani people credit for being able to distinguish between progress and breakdown in negotiations, but Bin Laden is not a citizen of either Afghanistan or Pakistan. And if the Taliban want to run for office why haven't they? What would the true vote totals be? What problem does the Taliban have with democracy? It's not like they don't have some Pakistani military support. The people won in 2008, not Musharraf's Muslim League and the Taliban.
"The leader of the Awami National Party, Afrasiab Khattack, which now governs the North West Frontier Province of which Peshawar is the capital, has said he believed Mangal Bagh and his men were a creation of Pakistan's powerful Inter Services Intelligence agency."
"In the past, these operations have been inconclusive," Mr. Khattack said. "We will have to wait and see if this one is conclusive."
"Pakistan Forces Shell Bases of Militant Leader"
June 29, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/asia/29pstancnd.html
"Taliban Imperil Pakistani City, a Major Hub"
June 28, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/world/asia/28pstan.html
"Pakistan Marble Helps Taliban Stay in Business"
July 14, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/world/asia/14taliban.html
McCain Is Saying the Wrong Things About Everything.
-Headline corrected
in case you missed it,
john mccain doesn't know the difference between sunni and shia.
doesn't know that they have a history of violence.
doesn't know that iraq doesn't border pakistan.
doesn't know the difference between iraq and iran.
al qaeda and mere extremists.
phil gramm helped cause our economic collapse.
phil gramm helped enron fuck over americans.
phil gramm helped gas companies cash in on the hard work of americans.
thinks the surge caused the "sunni awakening" (though cbs was kind enough to edit that part)
doesn't know much about the economy. (being married to an heiress to the budweiser fortune will do that to ya)
need i continue?
-"What I've said is that if we had actionable intelligence against high-value al-Qaida targets, and the Pakistani government was unwilling to go after those targets, that we should."-
Barak Obama now openly advocates Agressive War and supports the Imperialist notion that the Sovereignty of the U.S. extends to the other side of the World.
The "better than McCain"-ness of the Dem Candidate is starting fall away, layer, by layer.
Is everybody SURE this isn't the year to take a plunge and leave the DemFold?
Or better yet pay more attention to your Congressional and Statewide and Local Elections?
Have Fun,
-matti.
Maybe Obama should seek advice from the Russians on his Afghanistan plans.