In determining which of the two leading Democratic candidates would make the most competent and credible commander in chief, it is revealing to compare the public statements of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama during October 2002, when Congress voted to authorize the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Former President Bill Clinton insisted recently that Clinton and Obama had had virtually identical records on the Iraq war and that Obama's claim that he "had the judgment to oppose this war from the beginning" was "the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen."
The record from that month, however, shows that there were indeed major differences between the two future presidential contenders, with Clinton supporting the Bush administration's push for war and its exaggerated claims about Iraq's alleged military prowess while Obama was opposing a U.S. invasion of that oil-rich country and openly challenging the administration's exaggerated claims of an Iraqi threat so urgent it required a march to war.
Though under no obligation as an Illinois state senator to make any public statements on foreign policy, Obama spoke out against the prospects of war at an anti-war rally in Chicago.
Obama certainly carried no pretense about the nature of Saddam Hussein's regime, referring to the late Iraqi dictator as "brutal" and "ruthless" and acknowledging that "the world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him." At the same time, he recognized that "Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors." Furthermore, Obama recognized "that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military is a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained."
That same month in Washington, Clinton was insisting incorrectly that Iraq had ties to al-Qaida, was "trying to develop nuclear weapons," and that Iraq's possession of biological and chemical weapons was "not in doubt."
Clinton then went on record insisting that the risk that Saddam would "employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States" was enough to "justify action by the United States to defend itself," specifically by authorizing President Bush to launch an invasion of Iraq at the time and circumstances of his choosing.
Whether Iraq constituted such a threat to U.S. national security was not the only thing that separated Clinton and Obama back in October 2002. In the months leading up to the Senate vote, former State Department and intelligence officials, representatives of European and Mideast allies, scholars specializing in the region, and other experts advised Clinton that a U.S. invasion would likely result in a bloody insurgency, a rise in Islamist extremism and terrorism, increased sectarian and ethnic conflict, and related problems. So did thousands of ordinary citizens.
Despite this, Clinton insisted that her voting to authorize the invasion was "in the best interests of our nation."
Meanwhile, back in Chicago, Obama was observing how "even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences." He also recognized that "an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaida."
On one of the most critical policy questions of a generation, a state senator from Illinois was able to figure out what an experienced member of the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee could not -- that Saddam was no longer a threat and that an invasion of Iraq would harm America's national security interests.
That kind of judgment shows itself today in their respective choices as senior foreign policy advisers, many of whom would likely take top policy-making positions if the candidate does become president. Obama has assembled a foreign policy team whose members overwhelmingly opposed the war, in contrast to Clinton's, whose members overwhelmingly supported it.
Wisconsin voters should keep this in mind in choosing which of these two Democratic candidates has the best judgment to lead this country during this next critical period.
Stephen Zunes, of Santa Cruz, Calif., is a former Madison resident and a professor of politics and international studies at the University of San Francisco. He is the author of "Tinderbox: U.S. Middle East Policy and the Roots of Terrorism."
© 2008 Capital Newspapers
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122 Comments so far
Show AllBob list a link to anything progressive you've ever done. I've listed mine and you've listed a link to my profile on the Obama net.
Why should anyone belive you and kem are not republican operatives? I know why people hate Obama, and it has nothing to do with the truth, because the truth is clear and has a link to it on the internet. You choosing to distort Obama quotes on at least 3 occasions I bothered to read your bullshit and call him a 'fairy tale' while you were at it reveal you for what you are.
bob k
i understand the argument repubs wnat to run against obama, but i don't agree with it. clinton is the easiest candidate for the repubs to beat. it isn't merely demonstrated by the polls (consistent for over a month, that obama can beat mccain in the general) but also by comments made at places like c-spans washington journal (listen to the repub line and listen to repubs who call in on independent lines and dem lines). yes, repub operatives can intentionally mislead us, but listen to the people speaking on this program - their inflection, the references they make - how they organize their thoughts, i doubt these comments are politically calculated and i sense the repub party is more fractured than we imagine, there are opportunities for dems floating through the air. clinton is an easy way for the repubs to to pigeon hole the entire democratic party into one family and their misgivings (personal and policy). it will be an attack on clintons extraordinaire, they are extremely divisive - as many (?hoodwinked? please...) columnists and posters have noted on these pages, she also brings out the rebublican bas en mass. the maryland race in the primaries (d edward defeating a sitting congressman, who voted for authorization for the president to use force resolution. i doubt repubs are expecting coattails from mccain. i believe many repubs have reassessed their feelings about iraq, and it's genesis in 2002.
mccain is not the favorite candidate of the repubs (keating 5, age, moral indiscretions), they honestly see a a younger candadate (considerably) not tied to the status quo as preferable to the repub candidate mccain (they -repubs- really don't like him).(minutes 13-16.00 today 2/21 washington journal). the hardcore warriors, advocates of naked american aggression,will always support the strong pro war (no doubt mccain, experience in the military taken into consideration, is much more willing to use war as a political tool than b obama).
the key for any dem candidate in november rests with high voter turnout, including many new voters who have just begun to participate in the electoral process. obama has demonstrated he can generate these voters (a new approach to the southern strategy), dissatisfied conservative candidates sit out (min 28.00 on wash jrnl 2/21 - the last repub said she'll write in r paul in the general - dem operatives can also influence the race). it's time to get over our racist past.
KEM,
Here's and interesting topic (if you are still checking this thread). Republicans are voting for Obama in Democratic (and open) primaries. I'm sure they are engaging in many other dirty tricks as well (as we have seen here in this thread).
I was in Wisconsin the day before their primary and a knowledgeable source told me that Republican state legislators were encouraging their staffs to vote for Obama.
You can Google for more info. e.g.
http://www.vitter.com/CraigsMusings/Entry.aspx?entry=792
http://blog.vivianpaige.com/2008/02/15/opinion-please-republicans-voting...
The point is that Republicans want to run against Obama in the general. Knowing that all of the Old South states will go Republican because of the white racist vote, Obama will be much easier to defeat than Hillary. Other Republicans on the ballot will also be helped because of the big turn-out of racists voting against Obama.
KEM,
Take my advice and don't read posts by these trolls. They aren't progressives, they aren't genuine. Their intent is to kill threads and stifle communication between progressives. Why engage? I've already exposed one of them as a Republican operative. The other writes at an 8th-grade level (badly).
I simply ignore them and spend my time reading people who have something to contribute, and posting facts here when they are constructive.
I never knew until today, that if one didn't support Obama, that they were a racist, a liar, an idiot, a fool, an Obama hater, a Hillary lover, a rotton scumbag who had their head up their ass and were not a progressive and should not be posting on this site. Apparantly, from no objections, most everyone here agrees with Dogwagner and Riverman. I knew this site was going to be overtaken someday by neo-con shills and fear I was right about that.
Again, Voting to fund the military is different than voting to fund an occupation. When one votes to fund the occupation, one is saying in essence "The occupation is just fine. Keep up the good work fellows!" The only funds that I would vote for are funds to withdraw. Moreover, it irks me that I am paying taxes to pay for the loan that is paying for the occupation. Obama and Clinton have stated they will keep troops there to protect the embassy. What right do we have to keep an embassy in Iraq? The US et al screwed up royally. We need to get out completely. Bush et al should be in prison.
www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22/us/politics/22obama.html
BTW Kem, I see why so many losers live their 'second life' on the internet. I would gladly call you what you are to your face in the real world. People like you trying to kill optimism in America, distorting the truth about the Iraq War Vote in 2002, and distorting Barack Obama's record in the Senate with misquotes and outright lies make me absolutely sick. You are nothing but assholes in the way of CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN. And I got news for you, the Obama train doesn't stop for people with their heads up so far their ass they spend more time thinking of names to call people instead of reasons to vote for a candidate for PRESIDENT. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/soplist
The politics of hate and distortion you and Bob embody is going down the drain along with your grip on reality apparently. For your own sake, get over yourself.
Bob, Simple Question: Why do YOU persist in misquoting Barack Obama? My answer: You suck at life and can't stand the thought a of a REAL PROGRESSIVE taking the wheel of the Democratic Party. Get over yourself.
March 22, 2007
Clinton Camp Challenges Obama on Iraq
By PATRICK HEALY
"Indeed, reporters asked Mr. Obama about the Democratic presidential ticket throughout the 2004 campaign, because Senators John Kerry and John Edwards had both voted for the Iraq war resolution. In an interview with The New York Times in July 2004, he declined to criticize Mr. Kerry or Mr. Edwards over the Iraq vote, but also said that he would not have voted as they had based on the information he had at the time.
''But, I'm not privy to the Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. ''What would I have done? I don't know. WHAT I KNOW IS THAT FROM MY VANTAGE POINT THE CASE WAS NOT MADE''."
BTW, I can sling shit with the best of them, and you two assholes started slinging it.
~Bye~
What ~BoB K~ just posted, is both accurate and truthful. I'm done here. Nothng nore to say. Dougwagner and Riverman can rave on with their stupidity. __ I no longer care what they write.
I have always said, Hillary has to win Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania, or she is out of it. I have always said IF she wins those three states she will have the delegate lead. I still say that, logic has nothing to do with it, it's the simple truth. Because I wrote that opinion, I'm pegged by some, as a stupid racist, with my head up my ass. You aren't funny anymore ~Riverman~, you're a sich, sad, pitiful soplist, a disgrace to the human race. Go find Douwagner, and crawl under his rock and love one another.
~Riverman~ I am saying that voting to fund the war, is the same as sayng YES to the war in the first place, are you that stupid that you cannot understand plain english? _____ Yes you are, so don't talk about logic to anyone here, you friggin, soplistic idiot.
If Obama was against the war in the first place, he NEVER should have voted YES to fund it later on. That is not supporting the troops, it's supporting a contiuation of an illegal occupaton of Iraq. __ Go fry your brain some more, you ignorant moron.
"funding the military is totally different from saying yes or no to this war."
Funding the military and funding the occupation are different. Funding the occupation, while not exactly the same, is related to voting for the war. I would not authorize funds for the occupation. I would only fund the withdrawl from Iraq. Obama and Clinton are dumb and dumber as far as I am concerned.
Again, if you are going to use the term "low logic" you really should explain which fallacy is being used.
"But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports," Mr. Obama said. "What would I have done? I don't know."
(New York Times, 07/26/2004)
From: "What Would Obama Have Done? Voted for the War and Lied About It – Just Like Hillary" ---
"Never mind that he has repeatedly voted to fund the illegal, racist, mass-murderous and brazenly petro-imperialist occupation of Iraq since his arrival in the U.S. Senate. Never mind that he voted to confirm the mendacious war criminal Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State, who played a critical role in advancing the preposterous Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) claims Bush used to invade Iraq - the same ridiculous claims Obama admitted he might have played along with if only he'd had Hillary Clinton's "intelligence" access. Or that he distanced himself from fellow Illinois U.S. Senator Dick Durbin when Durbin faced vicious right-wing attacks after daring to tell some basic truths about U.S. torture practices in Iraq. Or that Obama used his considerable political and campaign finance muscle to back centrist Democrats against antiwar progressives in numerous Congressional primaries in 2006 (he even supported the neoconservative Joe Lieberman - his self-chosen Senate mentor - against the antiwar insurgent Ned Lamont in Connecticut). Or that he has repeatedly and absurdly argued that the illegal invasion was launched with the best of democratic intentions and praised U.S. military personnel for their "unquestioning" "service" in Iraq and (despite numerous U.S. atrocities there) for "doing everything we could ever ask of them."
"Never mind that his belated calls for withdrawal are hedged by numerous statements indicating that an Obama White House would maintain a significant military presence in and around Iraq for an indefinite period of time. Or that he refuses to support taking a reckless (possibly even nuclear) U.S. military assault on Iran off the table of acceptable U.S. foreign policy options."
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
Riverman, I will say again, as l wrote the first time I ever posted on this issue.
If hillary wins in Ohio, Texas and Pensylvania, she will lead in the delegate votes, that is a FACT. Why you keep sayng I'm stupid about that opinion, just proves your incredible ignorance. As of this morning, Obama leads by 61 delegate votes, not the 100 plus you claim. __ And yes, I jokingly wrote, that if Hillary loses, I would publically kiss your ass. Of course any with any sense, would realize I was joking and at that time you were being a funny guy here. Now that you have joined in with the obnoxious ~Dog-waggler~, you are not funny at all.
I am sorry to see you not be. It was fun going back and forth with you on this subject, it no longer is , That's a shame. __ Not my shame Riverdude,__ yours.
riverman101,
Please explain which fallacy kem is using. You shouldn't just say its low or ridiculous logic.
~~~DOUGWAGNER~~~ The word "fairy tale" used by Bill Clinton is racist? He was using that word to describe what Obama was claiming about his voting against the war. __ Obama's claims ARE a fairy tale. Obama never voted on Prop 114 in the first place and then has said several times, that he isn't sure of how he would have voted, he's hedging on the issue.
Bill Clinton obviously didn't wish to use the words "damn liar" when describing Obama's damn lies, instead he said Obama's story is a fairy tale. __ Racial? Of course not. Would I have used the words fairy tale you ask? Nope,I'd have said Obama is a damn liar and a con artist.
Jesse Jackson did win twice in South Carolina, he garned the black American votes there. __ Speaking that truth is racial?
Well DOUGWAGNERR, you have added another shitty remark about me, now you say that I'm a racist. ___ Shove it, you little punk, I am certain that you would never dare say those things to my face and am also certain, you will never have the fear of doing so. ____ You don't know me Dougwagner, __ not at all.
Kucinich actually voted against the "war". Why is he out? Surely AIPAC had nothing to do with it. I just might follow George Carlin's lead this election.
It is not clothing, and food ~RIVERMAN~, supplied by Halliburton BTW, that supports the troops. Bringing the troops home would be supporting them. Our troops are not fightng a just war in Iraq, they are occupying a country illegally and dying for nothing moral or just, nor are they protecting our country.
It is not the yes vote for supporting the troops that bothers me about Obama though. What disturbs me, is that he says he was against the war from the start, but then votes yes to allow it to continue. And in between those votes, hedges and gives different answers to the question of how he would have voted had he been able to do so. He has the momentum and may win in Texas and Ohio. If he does, he will be our next president. If so, I hope his morality and honesty develop far better than what he has displayed so far.
I am delighted that you and Dougwagner disagree with me ~Riverman~. I would hate to have it known, or even presumed, that I was anything at all like either of you two.
I see, ~Dougwagner~, in YOUR valued opinion, if Bob and I offer our opinions, we are full of shit, but your opinions are just and honest, and of course you are not full of shit. ___ You are a soplist.
Well DOUGWAGNER, I disagree with you again. For one thing, Bush's veto power has nothng to do with how Obama voted. Bush has always had veto power. That is how you debate an issue, with attempts to cloud the discussion with smoke, and not address others valid arguments. As you have stated, you are a law student, ___ and very likely a very good one. Someday, if you ever should pass the bar exams, your type of mind set and your type of distorting truths, will get you into serious trouble.
It is not just that Obama has voted YES to continue funding the war ~Dougwagner~. He also claims he was against the war from the start for "moral" reasons, and that Hillary voted for it. But when asked how he would have voted IF he were able to vote when Clinton did, he says __ he doesn't know ___ how he would have voted. __Then he says probably not. __ Then he says he would have been very reluctant to vote no, because of Senator Kerry's yes vote. __ For MORAL reasons, if he actuallly has any, Obama should have continued to vote no. Because he didn't, he is a hypocrite ___ and you support him.
Bill Clinton does play the race card. When was the last time you referred to anything as a 'fairytale' before you started quoting Bill Clinton Kem? Be honest with yourself. You know what Bill Clinton meant when he called Barack Obama, who has more experience than his wife as a community organizer, a civil rights lawyer, an Illinois State Senator, and US Senator a "fairy tale", "an eloquote young man", and explained why Hillary didn't win in South Carolina by saying that "Jesse Jackson won it twice." Barack Obama is 46. Bill Clinton is 61. Bill Clinton is a low-life. And you repeating his racist bullshit makes you a low-life.
Of course if someone like Bill Clinton points out those discrepencies about Obama, he is labeled a racist, or playing the race card. ___ Which is ridiculous, but the press and media them imply that it is.
Kem, you and Bob are full of shit. To suggest that a vote for war in 2002 is tantamount to voting to fund troops in 2005 and 2006 when Bush had 2-3 years left with veto power is fundamentally dishonest.
Dougwagner, you fail to offer an opinion on Obama's comment, that he would have been very reluctant to vote no on Prop 114, if he HAD been a US Senator, because Kerry had voted yes and he would not have wished to embarrass Senator Kerry. The main thing is, Obama HAS voted YES for it, ever since he could vote on it.
I understand, I was able to log on also, but could not post any commments. Same for Kathy and others. I wrote to the "webmaster" and he immediately replied and gave me a new code and I was able to sign in for comments.
That is precicely the point ~Dougwagner~.
Obama says one thing to the question and then gives a different answer to the same question when asked by another person. Then when he IS able to vote as a US Senator he has voted to continue funding the war every time he has voted. His bashing of Hillary for voting for the war and saying he has not voted for it, is hypocrisy.
That is smart politics obviously, becaue of that lie, he has managed to gain thousands of votes. Is that the type of person we really want in the White House?
KEM -- CLARIFICATION -- I could log in fine (with three different login IDs), just no ability to make posts and then later had only moderated posts that later disappeared completely.
Bob,
as for (2) and (3) you have dishonestly edited Barack Obama on at least two occasions. In reality, you are the great prevaricator.
(2) The First Occasion
Barack Obama on Meet the Press July 25, 2007
MR. RUSSERT: "The nominee of your party, John Kerry, the nominee for vice president, John Edwards, all said he was an imminent threat. They voted to authorize George Bush to go to war. How could they have been so wrong and you so write as a state legislator in Illinois and they're on the Foreign Relations and Intelligence committees in Washington?
STATE REP. OBAMA: Well, I think they have access to information that I did not have. And what is absolutely clear is that John Kerry said, "If we go into war, let's make sure that we do it right. Let's make sure that our troops are supported. Let's make sure that we have the kind of coalition that's necessary to succeed." And the execution of what was a difficult choice to make was something that all of us have to be concerned about. And moving forward, the only way that we're going to be able to succeed is if, I think, we have an administration led by John Kerry that's going to allow us to consolidate
the relationships with our allies that bring about investment in Iraq.
MR. RUSSERT: But if you had been a senator at that time, you would have voted not to authorize President Bush to go to war?
STATE REP. OBAMA: I would have voted not to authorize the president given the facts as I saw them at that time."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5488345/
(3) The Second Occasion
BLITZER: Had you been in the Senate when they had a vote on whether to give the president the authority to go to war, how would you have voted?
OBAMA: You know, I didn't have the information that was available to senators. I know that, as somebody who was thinking about a U.S. Senate race, I think it was a mistake, and I think I would have voted no.
BLITZER: You would have voted no at the time?
OBAMA: That's correct.
BLITZER: Kerry, of course, and Edwards both voted yes.
OBAMA: But keep in mind, I think this is a tough question and a tough call. What I do think is that if you're going to make these tough calls, you have to do so in a transparent way, in an honest way, talk to the American people, trust their judgment.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004
It appears that someone is able to block out certain bloggers from logging on to post at CD. I have a list of 58 names of people who have been regulars here for many months or years and suddenly they no longer are posting here. If a few stopped posting that would not be unusual, 58+ is.
NO edit again?
To set the record straight here with myself, RIVERMAN AND DOUGWAGNER.
A few days ago, I posted on a thread, that I believe Hillary is not out of it. If she wins Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania, she would have the most delegates at convention time and would then have the most super delegtes. ___ That's my opinion.
Because I wrote that opinion,~Riverman~ comes back at me and says that I'm a fool, a idiot, it's already over, Obama leads by more than a hundred delegates, etc. He says I cannot do math and his obnoxious side kick Dougwagner tells me I have my head up my ass and am a Obama hater, etc. Well, as of this morning, after taking three more states, Obama leads in the delegate count by 61. So I do believe, it is Riverman's math that needs checking.
I will say again, Hillary must win in Ohio, Texas and Pennsylvania or she is out of it. I've also said, and will say again, if Hillary ends up the choice, she should take Obama as her V/P running mate. I don't hate Obama, I just believe he's a well spoken con man. Now if the Michigan and Florida votes are counted, that's a far different matter and it would be trouble.
Don't think it is censorship, folks. I can't post on my home PC, but no problem on this one.
More differences:
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=287406
Back to the topic of the article by Stephen Zunes ---
This Stephen Zunes opinion piece is as one-sided as it was the first time CommonDreams published it on January 22, when it was called "Obama vs. Clinton – October 2002." http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/01/22/6527/
How ridiculous to compare the two candidates' records on the Iraq War by examining only what they said in October 2002. Hasn't Zunes noticed that this is February 2008?
Here's the full record.
(1) H.J.Res 114 passed the House and Senate in October 2002. 77 of 100 Senators voted for it, including Hillary Clinton. Barack Obama was not a U.S. Senator then, so he had no vote.
(2) In 2004, when he was running for the U.S. Senate, Obama was asked how he would have voted on H.J.Res 114. He hedged, "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know." (Meet the Press, July 2004)
(3) When he was asked the question again, he hedged again: "You know, I didn't have the information that was available to senators. I think I would have voted no. But keep in mind, I think this is a tough question and a tough call." (Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, July 24, 2004)
(4) After Obama became a U.S. Senator in January 2005, he voted FOR every Senate measure to CONTINUE the Iraq War throughout 2005 and 2006.
(5) Then in March 2007, while running for president, Obama finally cast his first vote against the war (S. 965, which mandated a timetable for withdrawal). It's apparent he did so out of political expediency (since Hillary also voted for it).
(6) In September 2007, Obama had his first chance to vote on a war resolution in the U.S. Senate — this time regarding Iran and highly dubious claims about the threat posed by that country. The vote was on the Kyl-Lieberman resolution (S.Amdt. 3017) which Senator James Webb, former Secretary of the Navy, warned was tantamount to a declaration of war. Obama, the Great Prevaricator, was one of only two Senators to skip the vote. The other was Perpetual-War John McCain.
(7) Obama now openly says that, as President, he will increase military spending, and increase the size of the uniformed armed forces by more than 92,000 troops. (Why would he need to do that if he sincerely intends to withdraw from Iraq?)
(8) Obama now openly says that, as President, he will send air strikes and ground troops into Pakistan, with or without Pakistan's permission. (Attacking a country which is not an imminent threat is a war crime.)
The truth is, Hillary and Obama have almost identical records on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the potential war with Iran. There is only one "distinction without a difference," and that is Obama's October 2002 anti-war speech (again, while he was not in the U.S. Congress and had no vote), and the tunnel-vision analysis of Stephen Zunes is more than a little tiring.
notfooooldbyW makes some good points. I would just add that, while Hillary's war authorization vote was a mistake, we should bear in mind that 77% of the Senate voted for it. Hillary was in a tough spot as a U.S. Senator from New York where the 9/11 attacks occurred. With the corporate media ready to bludgeon any prominent politician who appeared "weak on defense," Hillary would probably not have been re-elected to the Senate, much less the White House, had she voted against the resolution. That is not to excuse her vote, but only to (at least partly) explain it.
Furthermore, if the 9/11 attack had been on Chicago instead of New York, and if Obama had been a U.S. Senator from Illinois at the time, there is no doubt he would have fallen in line with the 77% voting for the war authorization. That much is clear from examining his full record above.
spartacus that was the most brilliant and succinct post about Hillary Clinton I've seen in months. Congrats.
Anything YOU or Riverdude say of me, I take as a compliment ~Dougwagner~. As many others have posted during the past few weeks, you dont debate, you just repeat your same baloney and refuse to address actual facts which seriously conflict with your opinions and the often propaganda links you offer.
It seems as several of us have gotten away from the title and theme of this artile. "Clinton bought Bush's war talk, Obama didn't".
Reading all of the posts once again, there is very substancial evidence, that the title and theme of this article are wrong. It's an attempt by the author to deny the facts and the truth.
Hope no one faints at Obama's swearing in ceremony, like they have at FIVE of his rallies this last week and during one debate. They all faint right near where he's standing on the stage. He immediatly stops his well prepared speech, takes charge of the medical situation and calms everyone down. He offers a new botlte of water, which was always readily available and near-by his podium and he then asks if there are para-medics in the audience. He shows his concern for the little people, he looks good. Of course it only happens at his ralllies. My my, what an act he can put on, they were all identical. __Better than tears for sure.
Kem, as Riverman has showed time and again, you could afford to brush the dust off a math book. I wouldn't qualify you as a non-idiot.
Bob, you don't engage because your argument is fundmentally dishonest and devoid of meaningful facts.
Let's revisit the weight of your anti-Obama hate, a transcript from Meet the Press:
Q: Some involved in the anti-movement have said that in 2004, 2005, 2006 Barack Obama voted to fund the war; that you were not a leader in trying to stop the war until you ran for president and had a sense of the anti-war fervor in the Democratic base. Where was the leadership?
A: I disagree with that. Throughout I was a constant critic. It is true that my preference would not be to end this war simply by cutting off funding. My preference would be for the president to recognize that we needed to change course, and that was what I continually pushed for. At the point where we realized the president was not willing to change course, I put forward a very clear timetable for when we should remove our troops. And, when that was vetoed, I then suggested that the only way to negotiate a different direction in Iraq is by not giving Bush a blank check when it comes to funding.
Q: You have changed now in your support of cutting off funding.
A: But I haven't changed in my opposition to the war.
–Barack Obama, Meet the Press, 11/7/07
The gotcha politics of Meet the Press reveals at best that Barack Obama has been opposed to the Iraq War since 2002 and that the omnibus character of Iraq War funding means that at times to vote against it was to vote against body armor when you knew that a pure strategy of not voting for funding had no hope of surviving a veto. Call Kucinich principled. But some of those votes inevitably punish the American soldier instead of overcoming a Veto or the Republican Party. The problem is that there were not enough legislators committed to overturning a Bush veto on any significant progressive legislation during his entire term of office. That's Senate politics and procedural rules. However, his votes and his voice have led the way in reframing the discussion about Iraq around benchmarks and phased withdrawal. And most importantly, Barack Obama is the only candidate in this race who has opposed this war from the beginning, in 2002. Had we had more Democrats like Barack Obama we would not be in this mess:
"Like it or not, we ran out of options," said Representative David R. Obey, Democrat of Wisconsin and chairman of the Appropriations Committee. "There has never been a chance of a snowball in Hades that Congress would cut off those funds to those troops in the field."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/25/washington/25cong.html
Barack Obama's merits as the next President of the United States are unequivocally antiwar and in favor of a phased withdrawal that puts pressure on the Iraqi political process to solve its security issues, not the American soldier. Barack Obama would make an infinitely better President than either the sell-out Clintons or 100 years in Iraq John McCain. And people like you who twist the words of Barack Obama and the history of this war beginning with John Edwards and Hillary Clinton's vote for HJ 114 authorizing Bush to declare war at the time and place he saw fit are fundamentally dishonest or severely underinformed. THE ONLY CANDIDATE IN THIS RACE WHO HAS OPPOSED THE INVASION AND OCCUPATION OF IRAQ SINCE 2002 UNEQUIVOCALLY IS BARACK OBAMA.
"There are those who offer up easy answers. They will assert that Iraq is George Bush's war, it's all his fault. Or that Iraq was botched by the arrogance and incompetence of Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. Or that we would have gotten Iraq right if we went in with more troops, or if we had a different proconsul instead of Paul Bremer, or if only there were a stronger Iraqi Prime Minister.
These are the easy answers. And like most easy answers, they are partially true. But they don't tell the whole truth, because they overlook a harder and more fundamental truth. The hard truth is that the war in Iraq is not about a catalog of many mistakes - it is about one big mistake. The war in Iraq should never have been fought…
Some seek to rewrite history. They argue that they weren't really voting for war, they were voting for inspectors, or for diplomacy. But the Congress, the Administration, the media, and the American people all understood what we were debating in the fall of 2002. This was a vote about whether or not to go to war. That's the truth as we all understood it then, and as we need to understand it now. And we need to ask those who voted for the war: how can you give the President a blank check and then act surprised when he cashes it?…
We thought we learned this lesson. After Vietnam, Congress swore it would never again be duped into war, and even wrote a new law — the War Powers Act — to ensure it would not repeat its mistakes. But no law can force a Congress to stand up to the President. No law can make Senators read the intelligence that showed the President was overstating the case for war. No law can give Congress a backbone if it refuses to stand up as the co-equal branch the Constitution made it.
That is why it is not enough to change parties. It is time to change our politics. We don't need another President who puts politics and loyalty over candor. We don't need another President who thinks big but doesn't feel the need to tell the American people what they think. We don't need another President who shuts the door on the American people when they make policy. The American people are not the problem in this country - they are the answer. And it's time we had a President who acted like that."- Barack Obama, the next President of the United States
http://www.barackobama.com/2007/10/02/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam_27....
Avery interesting Bio ~Dougwagner~. MacNamarra and Karl Rove are over-educated idiots also Dougy.
Hi KEM -- It may have been a glitch, but my several emails to editor were never responded to.
The glitch also followed me from nspire to namaste screen name (and a 3rd with a new anonymous email and all new cookies), and all attempts at submissions (till last night), were either outright suppressed (nothing came on screen after "submit comment" was clicked), or after a few weeks I got that I was being moderated, but then no comment ever appeared.
I submit that it is easier to believe that at least one editor was involved.
It's nice to have found my voice again, however so.
~Riverman~ has a serous math problem,, among others such as Readng Comprehension. I'm not surprised to hear ~Dougwagner~ was ONCE a member of the Green Party. Republican moles do such to prove credibility when they invade suites such as CD. Those very intelligent moles, who are adept with writing skill, term that type of deception "Rat Fuc%ing". For ~Dougwagner~, those two words should be reversed.
Hi ~NAMASTE~ I didn't realize you had ben banned here at CD. That happened to me and Kathyodat in October. Actually it's a computer glitch in the CD's computer program according to the CD editor. I sent an E-mail to him and he fixed it so I could get right back on and said nobody is ever banned at CD.
I notice that many of the old timers who blogged almost daily here have been missing for about a month. Taht includes Pacplayer, Geoff, MikebinSC, The wondering you, Marianne, and at least 40 others who wrote excellent blogs and often offered valued links.
Hi KEM -- Did that 'wiggler' have a hook in it?
If you keep on fishing that way, you're liable to catch something.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
It is a distinct pleasure to know that ~Riverman! supports ~Dougwagner~. I am very pleased that they both always disagree with me. Although their opinions are similar, it isn't pick a pair. Riverdude is humerous, Dougwiggler is a nasty asshole.
I no longer read or respond to dougnwagner because he refuses to engage in honest conversation (unlike scroller and others) and instead employs deceit, false information, smoke-screen and subject-changing rhetorical tactics to undermine all Democrats except for Obama.
Some have said that dougnwagner is not a real person, but is actually a robo-responding computer program. My own analysis is that dougnwagner is a young Republican operative based in Tallahassee, Florida.
Dougnwagner is a juris doctor candidate at a top 50 law school who sees through your bullshit Bob.
And the last thing I need is a lecture from some anti-Obama anti-Progressive like you with their head up their ass telling me how great Bill Clinton is. If calling Bill Clinton a 'racist' is 'racist' to you, you need to take a long hard look at Bill Clinton's comments in South Carolina and reflect on your own opinions. There's nothing Republican about calling the Clintons on their racist campaign tactics in South Carolina or their sell-out positions on NAFTA, healthcare, or the Iraq War.
And BTW Bob, you forgot to mention that I am also the former president of the Ohio State Green Party and a supporter of Barack Obama because I'm tired of holier-than-thou left wing losers like yourself who are commmitted to bungling the biggest election of 2008. Obama is the real deal. All you are is a shit-starter on a website trying to tear other people up for your own small egoistic campaign for personal recognition no one is listening to.
http://media.www.thelantern.com/
media/storage/paper333/news/2005/01/26/
Campus/Potential.Usg.Election.Problems.Discussed-841557.shtml
http://media.www.thelantern.com/
media/storage/paper333/news/2004/08/05/
Campus/Youth.Politics.Take.A.Multitude.Of.Forms-697529.shtml
Hillary and Bill Clinton are chronic liars who will say anything to win and have in the past. Obama is the only Progressive and antiwar candidate in this race and the more derogatory holier-than-thou left wing nonsense I hear thrown at him the more I realize why I left the Green Party and am voting for Barack Obama, a candidate who can actually work across the aisle to bring together Progressives, Blue Dog Democrats, and Republicans disenchanted with the true enemy- Wal Mart/Wall Street anti-employee zealots and holier-than-thou party zealots on either side of the aisle who would sacrifice this country for the purity of their small minded uninformed partisan positions completely out-of-touch with mainstream America's life.
Barack Obama is the one candidate who can lead us in the 21st Century, not the 20th Century, where under Bill Clinton jobs were left in the Rustbelt, where I grew up, packed up and shipped to China, Mexico, and other countries where workers are paid scrabble in return for Mexico letting us push family farmers off their farms with subsidized Archer Daniels Midland corn that couldn't find its way into our french fries and Coke. Bill Clinton's America, where instead of creating manufacturing jobs, we shipped them overseas, and threw their workers into Wal-Mart, an Arkansas-based company the Clintons mortgaged their political future on, a place where Hillary Clinton once sat silently on the Board as the corporate officers savaged union organizers to rise to global prominence. And in return the American worker got a trade deal with China, which competes against the American worker with low wages, government-owned labor unions, smog, and environmental destruction so Wal-Mart can make a few more bucks on the margins.
People like you are the reason this country is falling apart.
If their respective records on the Iraq War is the only difference between the two, then it is enough motivation to get my vote for Obama (since Kucininch and Edwards both quit).
Who is dougnwagner? Here's the bio he claims, complete with photo.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CNsL
Born about 1983, he was eight when Bill Clinton became President and sixteen when he left office.
The Florida State student claims outrage (above) that Bill once strayed from Hillary and implies that is a reason to vote for Obama.
His Republican point of view slipped out here:
"What I think really ticks you off about Obama and Obama supporters is you now realize how much of this country doesn't care [for] what old left gatekeepers like Bill Clinton, John Edwards, and LBJ really stood for."
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/01/18/6447/
January 19th, 2008 11:45 am
Bob K,
(1) if you knew what you were talking about (which you don't) then why do you think David Obey endorsed Barack Obama instead of Hillary Clinton?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/
(2) Obama has been refreshingly clear on Pakistan unlike any other candidate (including John McCain) in this presidential cycle and has never said he would invade and occupy Pakistan. Get your facts straight.
It's the same situation everywhere in the world. One group acts, the other doesn't. The group that acts takes power. How you can think that the Taliban has not gained under Musharraf (hopefully that's coming to an end) is beyond me. If the Pakistani military fail to take action against the Taliban, and the Taliban do not become engaged in electoral politics, then the Taliban will continue to destabilize both Pakistan and Afghanistan. Get real.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1650518,00.html
Obama's not against political Islam. Obama's against antidemocratic political ideology. Obama's for rule of law. Obama's against rules written by antidemocratic ideologies.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1628168,00.html
"The United States is a democratic government, and democratic governments should work for democratic values across the globe. Pakistan is no exception."- Pakistan Supreme Court Justice Rana Bhagwandas
www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/world/asia/06pakistan.html
"When I am President, we will wage the war that has to be won, with a comprehensive strategy with five elements: getting out of Iraq and on to the right battlefield in Afghanistan and Pakistan; developing the capabilities and partnerships we need to take out the terrorists and the world's most deadly weapons; engaging the world to dry up support for terror and extremism; restoring our values; and securing a more resilient homeland. " - Barack Obama
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event&event_id=2...
"We must not, however, repeat the mistakes of Iraq. The solution in Afghanistan is not just military – it is political and economic. As President, I would increase our non-military aid by $1 billion. These resources should fund projects at the local level to impact ordinary Afghans, including the development of alternative livelihoods for poppy farmers. And we must seek better performance from the Afghan government, and support that performance through tough anti-corruption safeguards on aid, and increased international support to develop the rule of law across the country.
Above all, I will send a clear message: we will not repeat the mistake of the past, when we turned our back on Afghanistan following Soviet withdrawal. As 9/11 showed us, the security of Afghanistan and America is shared. And today, that security is most threatened by the al Qaeda and Taliban sanctuary in the tribal regions of northwest Pakistan.
Al Qaeda terrorists train, travel, and maintain global communications in this safe-haven. The Taliban pursues a hit and run strategy, striking in Afghanistan, then skulking across the border to safety.
This is the wild frontier of our globalized world. There are wind-swept deserts and cave-dotted mountains. There are tribes that see borders as nothing more than lines on a map, and governments as forces that come and go. There are blood ties deeper than alliances of convenience, and pockets of extremism that follow religion to violence. It's a tough place.
But that is no excuse. There must be no safe-haven for terrorists who threaten America. We cannot fail to act because action is hard.
As President, I would make the hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid to Pakistan conditional, and I would make our conditions clear: Pakistan must make substantial progress in closing down the training camps, evicting foreign fighters, and preventing the Taliban from using Pakistan as a staging area for attacks in Afghanistan.
I understand that President Musharraf has his own challenges. But let me make this clear. There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will.
And Pakistan needs more than F-16s to combat extremism. As the Pakistani government increases investment in secular education to counter radical madrasas, my Administration will increase America's commitment. We must help Pakistan invest in the provinces along the Afghan border, so that the extremists' program of hate is met with one of hope. And we must not turn a blind eye to elections that are neither free nor fair – our goal is not simply an ally in Pakistan, it is a democratic ally."- Barack Obama
Bottom line:
Obama ain't perfect.
He has some appeal.
Clinton is worse.
She has none.
The End.
Hillary is a hawk. If she got to be president, she'd want to make her bones pretty quickly.
Hillary will not repudiate her vote to authorize the Iraq invasion because she still believes in that vote.
Finally someone provides quotes of words spoken by Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in 2002; BUT, and while Zunes is quite irrefutably right about Clinton, he's written in a dreamful, omissive way about Obama. And where are the links to supporting resources for those quoted words from Obama and Clinton?! I trust Zunes is truthful about those words being what he says they are, but links to supporting resources or sources should be included; always.
It was "easy as making pie" to speak as Obama did during a period when he'd never been in U.S. politics more than average voters are, and he's proven what of himself since being elected to the Senate?
He's demonstrated that he has too little moral spine, he can't keep it straight, it buckles under really little pressure, and, as Kucinich reality-based said of Clinton, Obama, and John Edwards in the simulated Las Vegas debate with Democracy Now! and posted at DN (I believe) on Jan. 16th, they all "speak out of both sides of their mouths"; all three of them, although Obama seems to do so less than the other two. He still and clearly does it though; and to be that ways is to be political opportunists, which is akin to charlatanry.
I don't think that that is what Obama really wants to do though. Don't bother asking me about Clinton and Edwards though; you will get absolutely no positive words from me on these two cons.
YET, and significantly making up for Zunes' regular omissiveness on these political candidates, I believe that Dave Lindorff was right in an article of his very recently posted here at CD and in which he said that if Obama is elected president, then he might be able to make a good president, BUT if [and] only if his supporters build up and maintain enough pressure on him for him to not fold to the hellish and criminal whims, treasons of the ruling elites.
"Obama and Progressive Change
by Dave Lindorff"
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/12/6995
Snip. I can too easily elaborate with ... much, so will cut this off now. However, Zunes is being much too omissive, so I recommend Lindorff's message; after which, read Zunes and other Obama promoters all you want.
Just, svp, carefully keep in mind what David says in the above article.
Saying that Hillary 'bought' Bush's lies is false. It makes her look innocent, she didn't buy anything, she knew exactly what she was doing, she was voting to continue America's war of aggression and exploitation against the rest of the world, which started 60-plus years ago.
What's truly perverse is to claim Obama is any different. He's a Democrat, isn't he? Let me remind you that the Democratic Party is known as the War Party. Obama voted to fund the damn thing. Bush wouldn't have been able to commit so many crimes against humanity if it weren't for the blessing and support from Democrats like Obama, Hillary, Kerry, Pelosi, Reid and 95% of the "party," which is in fact a slightly more corrupt wing of the GOP.
Hum... Still not sure about Obama because the record is bad but NOT as bad as Clinton and we saw what a progressive her husband was. We saw her 1st healthcare reform proposal( turned down by both parties); she did not try again in 7 more years she had in the white House... Why not?
Both have a big money giveaway to Insurance and pharmaceutical companies on the book. I am JUST HOPING Obama will name Kucinich Secretary of Peace and Health. This country (We) deserves both.
On 2002 vote: both Clinton and Edwards were members of the Senate committee on Intelligence. As such they saw secret intel other senators didn't see. That is why their vote is inexcusable. Senator Durbin later (4/28/200)declared that seing that intelligence he COULD NOT IN GOOD COUNSCIENCE VOTE YES. He said he "could not believe" how the administration was giving different information to the American people than "the information we had on the Intelligence Committee". Read the excellent Kevin Zeese article (I just quoted him): "Democratic senators knew the Iraq war was built on lies-- did nothing, said nothing" (May 2 07) it may have come from Common Dreams (I copied only the article part... Sorry).
Many lies go around: digging up shows Democrats allowed the resolution to pass; they had the majority. The 9 senators who had seen the Intel report that left many questions open
could have spoken up, even days before the war to stop it.
Edwards for his part was pushing for war VERY strongly before the vote: he had an Oped piece in the Wash Post he does not Bragg about today(9/19/02 "Congress must be clear"). Was it blind support for the Zionist state -not serving Jews in general, or stupid belief it was going to be a piece of cake (oil-soaked cake)?
Edwards lies a lot if one checks out his past positions.
He used funds from one of his charity organizations for his campaigns (source: IRS returns). Hum
A note of HOPE: Past presidents have sometimes followed different policies than the ones they campaigned on. If we push Obama he can become a progressive; Hilary cannot in my opinion.
McCain would be worse than democrats of course. I am not sure I'll vote in Nov if Hilary is the nominee. Too much in her "experience" speaks against her.
Thank you Ducksoup for bringing up bills both wrote during their time in the Senate I never realised she wrote/sponsored useless bills with no impact on issues we care about (Kate Mullany National historic park? when we are engaged in an illegal war/occupation of Iraq???). Compare with Obama's bills in content and numbers.
Clinton no! Obama-Edwards ticket with Kucinich as Secretary of Health and peace Yes!
Fascism must be stopped, The Reagan tax cuts repealed...
scroller,
S.433 was introduced by Obama, never scheduled for debate, never voted on, never passed and never vetoed.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-433
When Obama said, in the Meet the Press interview you cited, "I put forward a very clear timetable for when we should remove our troops. And, when that was vetoed . . .", he is trying to take credit for the bill introduced in the House by Rep. Obey. That bill, H.R. 1591, was voted on, did pass both the House and Senate, and was vetoed by Bush.
Obama's bill was vastly different than Obey's bill. Obama's bill was much weaker, it set no date for having all troops out, and while it called for troops to begin to be redeployed out of Iraq, it gave Bush the power to "suspend such redeployment upon certification to Congress that such action is in the U.S. national interest." In other words, it was a sham.
Obama's statement on Meet the Press was therefor false, as I said. He habitually makes such deceitful statements, and I find it disgraceful and unconscionable. In my previous post I mentioned several other examples in that very same interview.
BobK Feb 19 12:45 am you accuse Obama of "deceit", "complete lack of conscience" and some other name-calling for "falsely" claiming he put forward a timetable to remove troops from Iraq. See S 432, the Iraq War De-Escalation Act, introduced by Obama on Jan. 30, 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_De-Escalation_Act .
KEM -- I'm no longer B-an-ned! Been waiting a month to comment on so much of what has happened. I think the same happened to PAC-PLYER, at the same time.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
A few weeks after JFK was murdered, Jackie Kennedy was secretly video taped, grabbing MacNamarra by the lapels of his jacket and crying out to him. "You have to stop this, you promised." She was pleading with him, in referance to Vietnam.
Dichterfreund,
"[JFK] would have been unlikely to fall for the graduated escalation business that trapped his successor."
But, the historical fact is that JFK DID escalate the VietNam War. He put the troops in. Eisenhower had only "advisers."
"[Obama] declined the invitation to wink at the [Iran War] resolution which Hillary voted for."
That's the spin of the year! Obama skipped the vote! He straddled the fence, he prevaricated, he failed completely to fulfill his obligation as a U.S. Senator to make a decision and vote! Like everything else, Obama wants to have it both ways.
"[Obama] regards himself as answerable to a larger constituency . . ."
I don't know what constituency he thinks he is answerable to, but he sure wasn't answerable to his constituency in Illinois (or the country) when he skipped the crucial vote on war with Iran.
"should Obama be other than what he appears to be, the effect would not be to discourage, but rather unleash the political energy which is being generated through the campaign."
I disagree. Reagan proved to be other than he appeared to be, and the effect was not to unleash a backlash of political energy. To the contrary, Reagan is still revered today by many whom he back-stabbed and impoverished. (And Obama has said he admires Reagan's rhetorical ability to accomplish just that.)
I was aware of those things ~Iowablackbird~, that isn't what I was talking about. So anyway, your comment that I was dead wrong, still makes no sense to me. Thank you for replying however.
I was in an out of Vietnam in 1960, 61. We were flying troops there out of Clark AFB and bases in Thailand. We hauled blankets, mess kits, shotguns, ammo, radios, C-rations, beer, air conditioners, water purification units, outboard motors, medical supplies, etc, and dropped 50 pound bags of rice to starving people in Cambodia also. Kennedy was quietly planning to pull our special forces out of Vietnam, much to the dismay of MacNamarra, Johnson and Gen Westmorland etc. ___ Kennedy was taken out. __ Johnson took over, the troops stayed and it escelated with the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. That disaster then lasted for years. Some rich corporations became very rich. Lady Bird owned a huge aircraft overhaul facility in Taiwan, it made billions in profits. __ And the beat goes on, now it's Halliburton and their sub contractors making blood money. ___ Borrowed from China blood money.
iowablackbird,
On Pakistan, the huge difference between Hillary and Obama is that Obama says he will attack with or without Pakistan's permission. (Such an attack would be a violation of international law and U.S. federal law, a continuation of the "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive war, and a war crime.) Hillary has not said that, and neither has McCain.
Furthermore, Pakistan has six times the population of Iraq, it is much farther from the U.S. and has more hostile terrain. And it has an arsenal of nuclear weapons. The war Obama threatens to start would dwarf the one in Iraq. This is a huge danger, and Obama says he is the one who can work across the isle to "get things done." If there's one thing I believe he has the capacity to accomplish, it's starting a larger war.
Finally, your last statement is nonsensical. I agree that Bill Clinton has responsibility for the blockade of Iraq and the deaths that resulted. How is that a "difference" between him (or Hillary) and Obama? It's like comparing apples and giraffes. Obama wasn't in Congress during the Bill Clinton administration and had no vote.
However, since Obama has been in Congress, his votes have been complicit in the deaths of more than one million Iraqis. Compare that to the half million deaths you mention, and it proves that blockades are less deadly than invasions and occupations.
KEM PATRICK February 19th, 2008 12:41 am
what i meant, when i suggested you were wrong, was that the neo-con agenda, prior to mr bush's invasion of iraq, was to secure the production and distribution of oil (an extension of bush1's gulf war). the occupation of afghanastan had something to do with contracts and pipelines that were serviced by halliburton (and the taliban's unwillingness, after a visit to houston, to reward these contracts), and the occupation of iraq provides false security to the saudis (a more accurate assessment of our role in these wars, gulf war and iraq war, is as mercenary army protecting our allies interest and our own corporate interest). also remember ww2 what stopped hitler (check out the prize by d yergin)? oil. the us needs oil to maintain it's military machine, the neo cons real perceived enemies (china and russia) also need access to this oil, which is why iran and china are trading. this war was planned long ago. tubes, yellow cake uranium, weapons inspectors were a ruse to draw US forces into the area. the neo-cons had contingency plans prior to the 2000 election (again google project for a new american century). the clinton's - in my mind - are complicit because they did nothing to resolve the conflicts we had w/ saddam. in fact by imposing sanctions and bombing while maintaining a bellicose attitude towards the iraqis, the clinton's only exasperated the situation.
so when i say, i believe your wrong, it's only because i see the causes of this war as preexisting . i believe the senators who opposed this war understood the ruse.
peace.....good night....
It is MOST unfair to blame Hillary Clinton for what transpired in internationl affairs during Bill Clinton's presidency ~IOWA~. We don't have a clue about what Hlllary and Bill nay have argued about. I will say, Bill Clinton was not our best president, far from it. He did insure oral sex became a household subject. I will say when Clinton was the president, we didn't owe China over nine trillion dollars, there was a hefty surplus in our national budget, oil was selling for less than $30 a barrel, we weren't fighting an illegal, losing war in Iraq and Bill Clinton never said our Constitution was a G-damn piece of paper.
Bob K,
"If you're comparing Obama to JFK, you should recall that JFK took a little war started by his Republican predecessor Eisenhower, and exponentially expanded it. He did so partly to prove that Democrats were just as tough on "Defense" as Republicans. Yet, for some unstated reason, you say Obama would not do so"
Daniel Ellsberg's "Secrets", detailing his own involvement in the build-up of the war against Vietnam & his subsequent efforts to end it by publishing the many papers that had repeated the same warnings endlessly, is the best study on dysfunctionality in decision-making. The debate on what course Kennedy would have taken in 1964 has lasted since at least 1965; but the man who went from the missile gap tale of 1960 to seeking to ban nuclear tests would have been unlikely to fall for the graduated escalation business that trapped his successor.
Obama has what Kennedy lacked: the example of two disastrous, divisive wars -- or one war and one occupation -- to consult. And with regard to Brzezinski, we have to remember that Carter was painted in the press as a pathetic weakling who wouldn't stand up to the Soviets & was too idealistic in foreign policy, and that Reagan had actual advocates for war with the Soviets in his cabinet, who were horrified when he nearly signed a comprehensive arms elimination treaty at Reykjavik. By the standards of the time, Brzezinski's plan was a modest one, at a time when the Soviet presence was both formidable & accelerating.
I objected & object to the notion that 'terrorist targets' can be legitimately targeted in other countries, even when the intelligence & military establishment of another country is playing a double game, as Pakistan's appear to be doing; but he has not put any political ruler outside the pale in advance, and he declined the invitation to wink at the Onto Tehran! resolution which Hillary voted for.
Both his political activity and his words to this point show someone who does not go it alone or with a small group of bellicose advisors, but someone who regards himself as answerable to a larger constituency than his own supporters or cronies.
What the nay-sayers overlook is that, should Obama be other than what he appears to be, the effect would not be to discourage, but rather unleash the political energy which is being generated through the camapaign. No candidate of the duopoly is going to produce the amount of transformation that is necessary, but a few improvements would be a vast boon; and a failure to effect even a few alterations would signal to a great many that the system is in fact irreparable, and therefore replaceable only through the action of the citizenry.
Obama also said he is not sure of how he would have voted, if he had been a US Senator. Then he added, "I was a supporter of John Kerry who voted yes and I would not have wanted to vote against the prop 114 and embarrass Kerry." What a bunch of bull shit that comment is. He spoke out against the war when he was a state senator, with ample justification. But He has not maintained that justification and the really bad thing is, he is being critical of Hillary and the other candidates for their supporting the war and is attempting to show that he is something that he is not.
What blows me away, is that EVERYONE cannot readily see the hypocrisy. What happens after he's in the White House, __ if he ever is? What is ironic is, he didn't need that issue to get where he has gotten in his campaign. ___ In fact, ___ if he were totally honest, he'd likely be several hundred votes ahead of Hillary.
bob k,
i am not a senator, but it seems to me that the pakistani's are sitting on a fence while receiving millions and millions of dollars in US military aide. the dictator was just reelected (again under nebulous circumstances). obama did not say he would strike pakistani forces, he said he'd strike terrorist training camps, in areas that are not overseen by anyone. the excursion in iraq failed to address the subliminal reason for the invasion (911). obama's comments about pakistan have to be put in context. obama would use carrots before sticks (obviously bush has used neither carrots or sticks and pakistan is mired in political turmoil)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-obama2aug02,0,5330...
"Obama said he would make continued military aid to Pakistan conditional on a more aggressive Pakistani army offensive against Al Qaeda followers who have retreated to a region along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border in which local tribes operate virtually free of central government authority."
of course clinton agreed with him (from same source) when it was politically expedient.
"Clinton said in a radio interview later in the day that she also would not hesitate to attack Al Qaeda targets on Pakistani territory.
"If we had actionable intelligence that Osama bin Laden or other high-value targets were in Pakistan I would ensure that they were targeted and killed or captured. And that will be my highest priority because they pose the highest threat to America," Clinton told American Urban Radio Networks."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/08/obama_attacks_pakist...
"Obama says that "Pakistan must make substantial progress in closing down the training camps, evicting foreign fighters, and preventing the Taliban from using Pakistan as a staging area for attacks in Afghanistan."
as we saw this week, over 80 killed at a dog fighting event in afghanistan,the most civilians killed in a single suicide mission in afghanistan to date. as i write the bbc is saying foriegn investment in pakistan is decreasing because of the increased vio