Student Expelled to Gaza Strip by Force
Palestinian's involuntary return is the sixth in 10 days, says human rights group
A Palestinian student has been handcuffed, blindfolded and forcibly expelled to the Gaza Strip by Israeli troops just two months before she was due to graduate from university.
Berlanty Azzam, 21, who was studying for a business degree at Bethlehem
University, said she was coming home in a shared taxi from a job
interview in Ramallah on Wednesday when soldiers at the "Container"
checkpoint took her identity card and that of another passenger with a
Gaza address.
After six hours of waiting, soldiers told her she would be taken to a detention centre in the southern West Bank, and she was handcuffed and blindfolded, she said.
"The driving took longer than it should have and I started to think something was wrong. I started to wonder, what are they doing to me?" After the car stopped and the blindfold was lifted, Ms Azzam saw she was at the Erez crossing to Gaza.
It was the sixth known forced return to Gaza of Palestinians stopped at the "Container" checkpoint - which is between Bethlehem and Abu Dis - in 10 days, according to the Israeli human rights group Gisha. Israel has also been preventing family reunifications in the West Bank for Palestinians with relatives living in Gaza, in effect forcing people to relocate to the Strip.
The steps are part of an Israeli policy of treating Gaza and the West Bank as two separate entities, thereby undermining the coherence of Palestinian claims for a state encompassing both territories. The 1993 Oslo agreement stipulates that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are to be treated as one territorial unit.
Major Guy Inbar, an Israeli defense ministry official, said the reason for Ms Azzam's deportation was that she was "staying illegally" in the West Bank.
"We are talking about a Gaza citizen who requested permission to study in the area of Judea and Samaria and received a negative answer," he said.
"In 2005, she was given a permit to visit Jerusalem for four days and she remained afterwards [in the West Bank] without any permit. Her entire period as a student was based on deceit and was against the law."
Sari Bashi, head of the Israeli Gisha human rights group, who tried to intervene on Ms Azzam's behalf, said she was assured by military lawyers on Wednesday that the student would not be deported to Gaza and that the rights group could seek a judicial review in the morning.
"The military misled us," Ms Bashi said. "There is a violation here of the right to access education, the right to freedom of movement and the right to choose one's place of residence within one's own territory."
The army did not respond to a request for comment.
Brother Jack Curran, vice president for development of Bethlehem University, termed the expulsion "a disgrace". "This is not about politics. It's about a young person finishing her degree. Since 2005 she has been studying as a good student. No one is a winner from this."

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125 Comments so far
Show AllNow that the hysterical, far-right, racist, imperialist troll has gone, here it is again:
Boycott Divest Sanctions Now!
I applaud South African dock workers, Hugo Chavez, academic groups across the world, Dr. Ilan Pappe, Dr. Norman Finkelstein, Dr. Schlomo Sand, Naomi Klein, Dennis Bernstein and many others who have taken a brave stance against Israel's crimes and the US support and funding of those crimes.
Since the USA is still the global military hegemon, and the protector of Israel from the rest of the world, huge pressures must be brought to bear against the US ruling elite to stop this madness as well as the US's own (direct)imperial slaughter. International coalitions, like those that helped bring down Apartheid in South Africa, are key.
Some people feel that AIPAC et al. have taken over US policy, however this is a simplistic view. I agree with Ali Abunimah (Electronic Intifada), for example, that US so-called strategic interests overlap with those of Israel and this special relationship is not one sided. Israel serves US imperial interests in the region and that is quite clear, in my opinion. Chomsky aslo agrees on this, for example.
To all of this thread:
Letto is an Israeli troll, paid with US taxpayer dollars by Israel to defend it and create discord.
------------------------------
That commenter on your blog may actually be working for the Israeli government
Straight out of Avigdor Lieberman’s Foreign Ministry: a new Internet Fighting Team! Israeli students and demobilized soldiers get paid to pretend they are just regular folks and leave pro-Israel comments on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube and other sites. The effort is meant to fight the “well-oiled machine” of “pro-Palestinian websites, with huge budgets… with content from the Hamas news agency.” The approach was test-marketed during Israel’s assault on Gaza, and by groups like Give Israel Your United Support, a controversial effort to use instant-access technology to crowd-source Israel advocates to fill in flash polls or vote up key articles on social networking sites.
Will the responders who are hired for this also present themselves as “ordinary net-surfers”?
“Of course,” says Shturman. “Our people will not say: ‘Hello, I am from the policy-explanation department of the Israeli Foreign Ministry and I want to tell you the following.’ Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis. They will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the Foreign Ministry developed.”
The full article, translated by Occupation Magazine into English here:
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/07/14/that-angry-commenter-on-your-blog-may-actually-be-working-for-th...
Thank you for detailing the paid Hasbara propagandists like Letto. This becomes very clear when one notices that he/she only comments on Israel-related articles, and always attacks everyone as Self-Hating Jews and Anti-Semites. All I have to say is "Beyond Chutzpah, the mis-use of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History" by Normal Finkelstein. (Letto of course calls him a Self-Hating Jew, how pathetic)
We must be aware that if anyone calls you one of those names, that reveals their own deep-seated racism. Ethnic Cleansing, War Crimes and Apartheid are beyond any defense and this ought to be obvious.
Just like when we criticize the invasion, destruction and occuptaion of Iraq and Afghanistan and the drone attacks and bombings of Pakistan, right-wingers call us "un-American" "America Haters" "traitors" supports terrorism and all that 3rd grade level non-sense.
Racist Imperialists have no logical arguments, therefore must resort to ad hom attacks and cheap diversions. This has been the case for decades now.
So, Gaza is now becoming the Israeli version of Siberia, huh?
Ultimately, beyond all the rhetoric and the synthetic history, the real historical question is, What constitutes a Nation.
Israel claims to be a nation, yet it has no legally-recognized borders. Simultaneously it denies Nationhood to the Palestinians, who long preceded the occupation of PALESTINE. AKA The Levant, as divided by the British. This British pretense, supported by Tony Blair, needs to be EXPLODED. Hell, Israel has yet to write a Constitution. It is truly a figment of Zionism. Zionists conspired with Nazis to kill other Jews. I am among the surviving Jews and I support the Palestinians. Tear down that fucking Wall. And grant her a degree.
I am sick of the lies. I am sick of the killing. Am I weak for this argument against the Zionists who position their battle as COMING FROM THE LORD? I don't think so. I suspect there was a time when Israel was a tenable State, in the 1950s, but like the U.S. they blew it. They are now FASCIST. Their January action against Gaza has proven that. Israel is now nearly a pure projection of American Fascism and is a phantom of what it might have become.
I happen to love the idea of Being jewish. I happen to love the idea of the DIFFICULT TASK of learning to READ. I love the idea of KEEPING THE BOOK. But there are others out there who are just as intelligent, and their language is just as beautiful. Why are we fighting? The solutions are staring us in the face. We ought to be coming together.
-30-
Well said!
OleManRiver: “Israel claims to be a nation, yet it has no legally-recognized borders. Simultaneously it denies Nationhood to the Palestinians”
Israel does NOT deny nationhood to the Palestinians. All the recent Israeli Prime Ministers have agreed to the idea of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
---
OleManRiver: “”Zionists conspired with Nazis to kill other Jews.”
Why would they do that? Do you have any proof? Also, if that was true, how come so many Zionists fought against the Nazis to save Jews?
---
OleManRiver: “I am sick of the lies.”
So do I.
---
OleManRiver: “They are now FASCIST. Their January action against Gaza has proven that.”
Israel is a democracy, with free speech, and many Liberal and human right groups. (Not possible in a Fascist state). The war in Gaza doesn't prove Israel is Fascist. Even Democratic countries have the right for self-defense against indiscriminate rocket attacks against their own citizens.
---
OleManRiver: “Why are we fighting? The solutions are staring us in the face. We ought to be coming together.”
So what’s the solution, and what if the other side won’t accept that solution?
Israeli trolls alert!
I wonder if anyone has seen the movie 'District 9'?
It speaks volumes.
What I can never comprehend, is the fact that those zionist thieves, murderers, and occupies are still unable to grasp the changes that has been happening around them, in the past few years
Their cover has been blown away
THEIR LIES AND CRIMES EXPOSED
The ugly nudity of their immorality, ruthlessness, brutality and crimes against humanity is visible for all to see
Their hasbara blather looks so pitiable to the eyes of the every decent person
And yet, they feel no shame or embarrassment as they continue to swamp the internet with their fully-known, poorly-crafted lies, humiliating themselves as they disgracefully attempt to defend the indefensible!
It’s pretty embarrassing for any normal human being to continue the lies when the truth is out there, known to all but themselves!!
Pathetic
Really pathetic
Embarrassingly pathetic
.
Islam control 99.8% of the extended Middle-East. Israel control only 0.2%. Do you really want to get into an argument who stole more, who killed more and who is more ruthlessness, brutal, Imperialistic or war criminal? (Based on facts, not on Propaganda)
Do you want to find a peaceful way for your children to enjoy peace and prosperity? Or would you prefer to blame only the other side, ignore your side's wrongdoing, play the professional victim, and by thus condemn your children to a future of war, poverty and misery?
Islam claim to be the religion of peace. Don’t you think its about time Muslims should live in peace, as equals, with the people of the book, the children of Israel, who return to their home since before Islam, after so many years in exile?
All the children of Ibrahim are brothers and sisters. Brothers should resolve their differences peacefully.
Salam, Ya-ukhti.
Troll much for Israel, letto?
First this: "Islam control 99.8% of the extended Middle-East."
Then this : "(Based on facts, not on Propaganda)"
Do you think you're the only one with access to the interwebs?
Do you really think anyone here is buying your patronizing nonsense?
Why don't you look at the map and judge for yourself.
http://www.history-map.com/picture/002/pictures/
distribution-countries-Islamic.jpg
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=islamic%20countries%20map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
You're kidding, right?
That was a joke. Tell me that was a joke.
"Look at a map"?
Does your map show the US military bases in the Middle East?
Does your map show how much money each puppet leader receives from the US?
Does your map show secret cooperation between the security services of each of those countries and the CIA?
Tell me you're joking about the claim that ISLAM controls the Middle East.
Islam controls the Middle East like the US Congress controls Israel. I'll let you in on a little secret, it's the other way around.
You're jocking, right?
Are you claiming that Islam (including the rich oil countries) control less land or less money than Israel?
Now who's kidding who.
No, I'm not JOCKING [sic].
You think that oil money translates to change and influence on the lives of average people be they Muslim or Christian?
If that were the case, Saudi Arabia's monarchy would have stopped all oil production and forced the US to park a few aircraft carriers along the coast of Tel-Aviv forcing the Israeli army out of the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights and the Shiba area in Lebanon.
But that hasn't happened, now has it?
Do you have any concept of geopolitics? Or do you have some kind of פיגור שכלי
I never called you names. Nor did I try to ranke your knowledge or mental abilities.
I only brought facts backed by hard core data.
I'm sorry that you don't feel the same. I was hoping we could debate in civilized manner.
Saying that the majority of the people in the Middle East are Muslims and therefore Muslims control the Middle East, doesn't qualify as hardcore data.
It qualifies as spin, or if I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, it qualifies as simplistic thinking.
Capish?
Mohawk:
Letto is an Israeli troll!
Israeli government paying bloggers to spread propaganda:
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2009/07/14/that-angry-commenter-on-your-blog-may-actually-be-working-for-th...
Thank you.
The Zionists learned well from the Nazis. However, the US cut off the $10 million per day aid to Israel it could force a peace within six months. The fact that it does not demonstrates that whatever the US spin doctors say, they support the slow motion genocide being carried out by the Israelis.
“De-countrify Israel NOW!”
Absolutely, there is no other way to achieve peace
But one must bear in mind that, this occupying barbaric entity called “israel”, is not a theoretical being, nor does it operate in a vacuum; it’s neither an abstract concept nor a conjectural void.
It’s an entity run by PEOPLE
PEOPLE who make decisions,
PEOPLE who elect politicians,
PEOPLE who ALL serve in a barbaric army,
PEOPLE who foster racist beliefs, attitudes and actions,
PEOPLE who invaded others’ land, dispossessed them, and forcibly occupied it,
PEOPLE who imprison children and shoot babies' hearts,
PEOPLE who destroy world heritage,
PEOPLE who steal water, land, sea and sky,
PEOPLE who kill hope, life, beauty and smiles,
PEOPLE who build their colonies on the blood and ruins of another people,
It is an entity of PEOPLE, 94% of whom voted for the attack on Gaza,
It is an entity of PEOPLE, 71% of whom want U.S. to strike Iran,
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860903.html
It is an entity of PEOPLE who violated ALL neighbouring countries,
It is an entity of PEOPLE who live on a STOLEN land for over six decades, with no signs of shame, remorse, awakening of conscience, or willingness to neither admit nor right the wrongs they’ve committed.
Hence, as a Palestinian I assert:
There is no other solution for the restoration of peace and justice, than the reinstatement of Palestine, the return to pre 1948, and the return of ALL Palestinian refugees
.
nahida "There is no other solution for the restoration of peace and justice, than the reinstatement of Palestine, the return to pre 1948, and the return of ALL Palestinian refugees."
1. "The reinstatement of Palestine"??? Not that I appose a peaceful Palestinian state, but when exactly in modern history there was an independent Palestinian state? In fact, before 1948, the land was occupied by the British Empire, and before that by the Ottoman Empire (Then it wasn’t even called Palestine), and before that by the Mamluks of Egypt, the Crusaders, the Arab Empire (Caliphates), the Byzantin Empire and by the Roman Empire. If you examine the dictionary definition of occupation – before Israel (who see itself as inherit to the kingdom of Judea), the last time the land was not occupied by a foreign Empire was during the rule of the Hasmonean kings.
But don’t let the facts confuse you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah
2. To have a just solution, justice must be restored to all the conflict's victims. Not only to the Palestinian refugees who were expelled from Israel, but also to all the Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab controlled land.
Facts vs. Pravda.
Letto:
What is the going rate for trolling for Israel?
Mazbut, ye-okhti!
Barak Allah feek akhi
How would you propose to de-countrify Israel, when most Israelies do not want to be de-countrified?
By using force?
It had been tried many times by various mass-murderer dictators.
"How would you propose to de-countrify Israel, ...By using force?" –(Letto)
–Yes. By any means possible but it must be done. Civilization all but demands it. Negotiations are not enough.
That would go a long way toward the moral redemption which the United States so desperately needs. To get back into the good graces of humanity and to finally do the right thing. It would be a short war, but is one of absolute necessity and urgency. The time is long overdue.
In lieu of a total invasion of the depraved, gargoyle state, a complete curtailment of the billions in American military aid would be a good place to start the proceedings. That, in conjunction with a complete boycott by an international concert of nations would bring the terror state to its knees quite expeditiously.
Excising the moral abscess of Israel is perhaps the preeminent agenda of the human project itself, and certainly of those desirous of world peace.
Zionism and Israel should subsequently be treated similarly to a defeated Nazi Germany at Nuremberg. Here, as then accountability would be mandated by force.
Very little about Israel deserves to survive especially its illegal expansionism by occupation, its, racism, its militaristic state terror and its genocidal agenda. And certainly not its existence as a nation.
Its very existence remains a moral blight on the greatness of the Jewish peoples and their exigent contributions to the human project.–(Jill Bains)
There was a UN non-binding resolution (General Assembly 181) - but it was rejected by the Palestinian leadership and the Arab league, which chose a war of genocide, and lost.
According to UN charter, UNGA resolutions are non-binding. (Unlike Security Consul resolutions)
Thank you, nativetongueredux, for explaining that you are a man of war.
The Nazi war criminal Haj-Amin al Aussaini, The Arab league, Nasser, Arafat, Assad, Saddam Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Yassin, and Nasrallah have all tried to exterminate Israel by war. They all failed. What makes you think you’re better than them, nativetongueredux?
Make peace, not war.
Answer a simple question and you might, just might, regain a hint of credibility on this blog.
Is it in keeping with human rights and basic justice and peace that Israel deported the woman discussed in this article?
Can a state that claims to be democratic force a person to live in one area of her own homeland?
The Israeli government claims that the student does not have a permit to remain where she is and go to school.
Yet, in defiance of UN resolutions, and international law, Israel keeps allowing colonialists to build and live on occupied Palestinian land.
I don't support everything that the Israeli government does.
I don't think this woman student should have been deported to back to her home in Gaza.
Having said that, how many students on this planet are denied the education they want? How many students on this planet are unable to complete their education because they are being deported? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
If deporting one student is sufficient to de-countrify a country - than all the countries in this planet should be de-countrified. Not just Israel.
Having said that, how many students on this planet are denied the education they want? How many students on this planet are unable to complete their education because they are being deported? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
If deporting one student is sufficient to de-countrify a country - than all the countries in this planet should be de-countrified. Not just Israel.
--------------------------------------------
Don't be daft.
I'm not daft.
I don't blindly support everything that the Israeli government does.
In this specific case, I don’t think Berlanty Azzam should have been expelled to her home in Gaza.
All that needs to be done to end the current situation is not war but simply defunding the client state, Israel. It cannot, and never could, exist without the billions of U.S. dollars a year in grants, military hardware and support, loan guarantees and other under-the-counter payments IN OUR NAMES and at our expense. But that's as unlikely to happen without a revolution in the USA as single-payer healthcare, due to those hogs and whores in Congress who supposedly represent US.
My apologies to honest whores everywhere.
"It had been tried many times by various mass-murderer dictators."
True. David Ben-Gurion comes to mind.
Have you tried opening a book lately? Say, for example, the one entitled "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe?
Perhaps we should consider why the denial of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is tolerated while Holocaust deniers are swiftly rebuked (as they should be). But, why the double standard?
Letto, are you a Naqba Denier?
I think we know the answer to that question.
mohawk, I read some of Ilan Pappe's papers. I'm not a Naqba denier. When did I ever say that the Naqba never happened?
Just to make it clear, - Here is what I know: During Israel's war of independence, about 1000 innocent Palestinian civilians were massacred by Israeli forces, and about 700,000 became refugees.
On the same time, a similar number of innocent Jewish civilians were massacred by Arab, and a slightly larger number (about 850,000) of Jews who lived in Arab land, became refugees, leaving behind more land and more property than the Palestinian refugees.
No one was a saint.
Another fact, that I’m sure you, Mohawk, as a man of truth, won’t deny – The Arab side was the one who rejected UN partition plan (UNGA resolution 181) and initiated the war.
On the same time, a similar number of innocent Jewish civilians were massacred by Arab, and a slightly larger number (about 850,000) of Jews who lived in Arab land, became refugees, leaving behind more land and more property than the Palestinian refugees.
----------------
Actually, if you read the history books that I refer to, you'd know that the Zionist militias outnumbered the so-called scary monolith you refer to as "Arab armies" 10 to 1. For every 10 Zionist fighters, there was one Arab fighter and Britain supplied the Zionist militias with guns, ammunition and vehicles. They didn't win the 1948 war by the grace of god. It wasn't some heroic accomplishment.
As for the alleged massacres of Jews by Arabs, that is simply an outright lie. You can't make up anything you want and then pretend to be a "man of truth". The image you have painted of yourself here coupled with the lies you conveniently slip here and there shows that you are not interested in an honest and genuine debate. Only a snake oil salesman would smile to your face and then stab you in the back. That's your typical behavior here.
---------------
No one was a saint.
---------------
That's a nice tactic. Yeah, spread the blame just to make the violence and the crime more palpable.
That's Hasbara 101. I know how that trick works. Better luck next time.
-----------------
Another fact, that I’m sure you, Mohawk, as a man of truth, won’t deny – The Arab side was the one who rejected UN partition plan (UNGA resolution 181) and initiated the war.
-----------------
Again making yourself seem like some noble righteous person, eh? Suddenly you give two hoots about the truth. Well, anyway, I'll play along.
The Palestinian side and nehboring Arab countries rejected the plan because the plan was no different than having a squatter who has been camping on your front lawn move into your garage and then when you warn him not to go any further, he goes to call his mommy and his daddy's freidnds at the police department.
They show up and because they're the fat cats in town, they tell you that you have to give up the living room and kitchen. And then with sheer chutzpa claim that the arrangement is "a fair compromise for both of you".
That's the story around the UN partition plan.
By the way, Jews owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine at the time when the partition was proposed.
Of course the Palestinians rejected it. What do you take them for? Ben-Gurion was counting on their rejection because then he could run back to mommy USA and get some clout in the United Nations to reach a "fair compromise".
mohawk “By the way, Jews owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine at the time when the partition was proposed.”
How much land was owned by Palestinians? (I assume it’s something more than 0% but less than 93%).
How much land was owned by foreign people living outside Palestine? How much was land owned by no-one? (Governmant land)
Did you know that 50% of Palestine was unpopulated desert?
How much land was owned by Palestinians? (I assume it’s something more than 0% but less than 93%).
--------------------------------------------------------------
That's right.
---------------------------------------------------------------
How much land was owned by foreign people living outside Palestine?
---------------------------------------------------------------
A few dozen acres at most.
--------------------------------------------------------------
How much was land owned by no-one? (Governmant land)
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing. The British Empire was occupying the region at the time. They didn't OWN it.
Do you have any proof only a few dozen acres at most were owned by people outside Palestine?
How about the Russian cherch?
How about all other cherches? How about rich Arab Efendies?
How about other investors?
Don't let me do all the work. Bring some proofs yourself.
Not quite ONE source. I'll explain:
You need to be aware of several factors.
1. It depends on the definition. There is land that was owned but its owners weren't using it. Then there was land whose owners were not present in Palestine at the time when the Jewish agency and Zionist movements attempted to take over.
2. I'm assuming you're referring to what the British and Zionist movement along with the Jewish agency termed "absentee property". If that's the case, then the definition is rather loose and it is loose on purpose as the Jewish agency at the time sought to take over, with the help of British governors, any land whose owners did not farm for a few years or land that did not have a fixed structure on it.
3. You can get an idea of the land not owned by Palestinians or Jews at around 1947 by checking Ilan Pappe's works, in which he took into account Ottoman, British and UN sources and concluded that the number in question is fractional, hence my "few dozen" statement.
No. I was not referring "absentee property".
I was talking about land not owned by private individuals. (A.K.A government land)
Absentee property is property owned by Palestinian who fled / forced out of Israel in the 1948 war.
Define "government" as it pertains to that particular year.
Do you mean "Britain"?
All Governments that controlled the territory in the last 100 years. Israeli, Britain, Jordanian and Turkish.
“Government land” = Land that is not owned by private individuals according to the Israeli law, the Jordanian law, the British law and the Ottoman law.
That's a broad brush you're painting with there.
We're talking about 1947.
When you write "Government owned land". To which government are you referring in 1947?
I was referring to my comment from: 1st, 2009 2:51 am
Mohawk: “As for the alleged massacres of Jews by Arabs, that is simply an outright lie. You can't make up anything you want and then pretend to be a "man of truth".”
Here are some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_(Jerusalem)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre
Iraq: In 1941, following Rashid Ali’s pro-Axis coup, riots known as the Farhud broke out in Baghdad in which approximately As a result of Farhud, about 180 Jews were killed and about 240 were wounded, 586 Jewish-owned businesses were looted and 99 Jewish houses were destroyed.
Egypt: In June 1948, a bomb exploded in Cairo’s Karaite quarter, killing 22 Jews. In July 1948, Jewish shops and the Cairo Synagogue was attacked, killing 19 Jews.
Libya: A series of pogroms started in Tripoli in November 1945; over a period of several days more than 130 Jews (including 36 children) were killed, hundreds were injured, 4,000 were left homeless, and 2,400 were reduced to poverty. Five synagogues in Tripoli and four in provincial towns were destroyed, and over 1,000 Jewish residences and commercial buildings were plundered in Tripoli alone
The pogroms continued in June 1948, when 15 Jews were killed and 280 Jewish homes destroyed. In 1967, during the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of 4,000 was again subjected to pogroms in which 18 were killed, and many more injured. The Libyan government “urged the Jews to leave the country temporarily”, permitting them each to take one suitcase and the equivalent of $50.
Morocco: In June 1948, soon after Israel was established and in the midst of the first Arab-Israeli war, riots against Jews broke out in Oujda and Djerada, killing 44 Jews.
On January 10, 1961, a boat carrying Jews attempting to flee the country sank off the northern coast of the country
Syria: Rioters in Aleppo in 1947 burned the city’s Jewish quarter and killed 75 people.
Yemen: In 1947, riots killed at least 80 Jews in Aden
Palestine:
==========
1929: Friday, 23 August, Arabs started to attack Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem.
The rumours and subsequent violence quickly spread to other parts of Palestine Mandate,
with the worst killings occurring in Hebron and Safed.
Other murderous assaults took place in Motza, Kfar Uriyah, and Tel Aviv.
The Hebron Massacre refers to the mass murder of sixty-seven Jews on 23 and 24 August 1929 in Hebron,
then part of the British Mandate of Palestine.
In total, 67 Jews were murdered in Hebron; 59 died during the riots and 8 more succumbed to their wounds later.
The remaining members, save one woman who refused to go, were placed on trucks and delivered to Jerusalem and all their property was seized by the Arabs.
Most of dead were Ashkenazi men, but there were also a dozen women and three children under the age of three.
Seven of the victims were yeshiva students from the United States and Canada.
Dozens of people were wounded, including many women and children.
Several cases of rape, mutilation and torture were reported.
The 1929 Safed massacre took place on 29 August during the 1929 Palestine riots.
Eighteen Jews were killed (some sources say twenty) and eighty wounded.
The main Jewish street was looted and burned.
1936-1939 The dissent began in Jaffa when the followers of Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, who was killed in a 1935 shootout with the British,
initiated a general strike in Jaffa, Nablus, and then launched attacks on Jewish and British installations.
85 Jews were killed during the first days of the strike. This led to an Arab revolt against the British.
In it more than 5,000 Arabs, 400 Jews, and 200 Britons had been killed.
As a result, the British restricted Jewish Immigration to Palestine to only 15,000 a year between 1939 and 1945
(The timing couldn't be worse. Millions of Jews were seeking refuge from Nazi Germany occupied territories)
1947 - 1948: The Jewish quarter in Jerusalem has had a rich history, with a nearly continual Jewish presence since the eighth century B.C.E.
At the turn of the 20th century the Jewish population of the quarter reached 19,000.
In 1948 during the Arab-Israeli War, its population of about 2,000 Jews was besieged, and forced to leave by the Jordanian Legion.
Gush Etzion (Five Jewish Kibbutz in the west bank)
On 12 May 1948, the Arabs captured the Russian Orthodox monastery, which the Haganah used as a perimeter fortress for the Kfar Etzion area,
killing twenty-four of its thirty-two defenders.
On May 13, a massive attack involving parts of two Arab Legion infantry companies, light artillery and local irregular support commenced from four directions.
The kibbutz Kfar Etzion fell within a day, and the Arab forces massacred the entire population of Kfar Etzion, soldiers and civilians alike,
the total number of victims of the final assault and following massacre reaching 250.
Only three men and one girl managed to escape. (This Massacare is far greater than the infamous Dir-Yassin)
The next day, the three other kibbutzim in the aria surrendered, the same day as the declaration of independence, their defenders imprisoned by the Arab Legion.
I'll make it easier on you so we're not playing this back and forth game of semantics for hours.
1. Your wording in a few posts made it sound as if Arabs were ethnically cleansing Jews in Palestine as early as 1929.
That's false. Prior to Zionism, all these peoples lived peacefully among each other.
After the Balfour Declaration and subsequent immigration of thousands of European Jews to Palestine, tensions started.
2. In one of your posts you claimed that the massacres that took place in which Jews were killed were on par with the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Zionist militias in 1948. That's false. Ben Gurion's own memoirs and a well-known Tochnit Dalet to wipe several Palestinian villages confirm that.
3. To claim that Jews had entire villages razed and that it was on par with the systematic destruction of about 500 Palestinian villages, is false.
I hope that satisfies your view as it pertains to those particular points. I have to go do some real work now.
In 1948, about 1,000,000 Jews lived in Arab countries.
Today the number is less than 5,000.
Some of these Jewish communities (Such as Iraq or Egypt) existed for 2,600 years.
With regards to systematic destruction, massacres and ethnic cleansing - Yes. The numbers are more or less of the same order. (I think the Arabs did a little more, but not by much.) Nevertheless - The war itself was initiated by the Arabs, after rejecting UN resolution 181.
I don’t think you will believe me now, so I agree; we should stop here and perhaps discuss this issue after you’ll have a chance to do some additional reading.
This is getting tedious.
Avi Shlaim the political scientist and historian explained in several of his books that in Iraq Zionist agents planted bombs to scare Jews into leaving for Israel.
The Lavon Affair involving Egypt is another example of such tactics by Israel.
In fact, Iraq did not want its Jewish community to leave.
And coincidentally you stated "Arab countries", ignoring Iran. Was that on purpose?
There are 25,000 Jews living in Iran TODAY and they don't want to leave.
---------------------------
I think the Arabs did a little more, but not by much.
---------------------------
There's no point in arguing with you since you have your mind set despite facts to the contrary.
In Palestine there were about 70,000 Jews in 1947 and about 800,000 Palestinians.
How is it that the "Arabs did a little more"? The numbers just don't add up.
I'm getting sick and tired of your playing the victim card all the time.
Mohawk: How is it that the "Arabs did a little more"? The numbers just don't add up.
700,000 Palestinians who lived in Israel became refugees, 850,000 Jews (who lived in Arab countries) became refugees.
850,000 > 700,000. Sorry, the number does add up.
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Mohawk: “In fact, Iraq did not want its Jewish community to leave.”
I spoke with a Jewish Iraqi woman. She said her family fled Iraq out of fear (from Arabs, not from Zionists)
---
Mohawk: “The Lavon Affair involving Egypt is another example of such tactics by Israel.”
In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. About 100 remain today.
In June 1948, a bomb exploded in Cairo’s Karaite quarter, killing 22 Jews.
In July 1948, Jewish shops and the Cairo Synagogue was attacked, killing 19 Jews.
Hundreds of Jews were arrested and had their property confiscated.
In October 1956, when the Suez Crisis erupted, 1,000 Jews were arrested and 500 Jewish businesses were seized by the government. A statement branding the Jews “enemies of the state” was read out in the mosques of Cairo and Alexandria. Jewish bank accounts were confiscated and many Jews lost their jobs. Lawyers, engineers, doctors and teachers were not allowed to work in their professions. In 1967, Jews were detained and tortured, and Jewish homes were confiscated.
In 1951, the fraudulent Protocols of the Elders of Zion was translated into Arabic and promoted as an authentic historical document, fueling anti-Semitic sentiments in Egypt.
In 1965, the Egyptian government released an English-language pamphlet titled Israel, the Enemy of Africa and distributed it throughout the English-speaking countries of Africa. The pamphlet used the Protocols and The International Jew as its sources and concluded that all the Jews were cheats, thieves, and murderers.
Anti-Israeli propaganda based on lies may win in the short run, but in the long run the truth will set you free.
Long live the Internet, free speech and free information.
Mohawk “In Palestine there were about 70,000 Jews in 1947 and about 800,000 Palestinians.”
WHAT?????????
You should seriously consider replacing your sources.
The number of Jews in 1947 Palestine was 608,000 and not 70,000.
The number of Arabs in 1947 Palestine was 1,237,000 and not 800,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
I've successfully disprove dozens of your "facts." (Including the one above, when you claimed that in 1947 only 70,000 Jews lived in Palestine.
So far you failed to disprove even a single fact I brought.
---
I don’t see a point debating with someone who is so miss-informed.
It's like explaining evolution to a Christian fendementalist.
Mohawk: “so-called scary monolith you refer to as "Arab armies" 10 to 1. For every 10 Zionist fighters, there was one Arab fighter”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
Israel: 29,677 initially rising to 115,000 by March 1949. This includes the entire military personnel count—both combat units and logistical units.
Egypt: 10,000 initially, rising to 20,000
Iraq: 3,000 initially, rising to 15,000 – 18,000
Syria: 2,500 – 5,000
Jordan: 8,000 – 12,000
Lebanon: 1,000[3]
Saudi Arabia: 800–1,200
Arab Liberation Army: 3,500 - 6,000
These numbers include only the combat units sent to the former British Mandate of Palestine, not the entire military strength. Also, these numbers does not include Palestinians militia, which mounted to Around 70,000 beginning of December to total withdrawal on 14 May 1948.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine
You see the problem with your Wikipedia sources is that it's Wikipedia.
Seriously. Post some reliable sources then we can talk.
You can expect to have a fair debate and you can expect to be taken seriously when you keep basing your rebuttals on a Wikipedia entry.
And if you're going to claim that Wikipedia is sourced and that there are citation, I have to tell you that there is no way a reader can verify that source, unless they have the book or publication right in front of their eyes.
So if you want to narrow it down, reference one specific book, I'll check to see if I have it in my personal library and then I can verify the information. Otherwise, I must say, this is becoming ridiculous.
The wikipedia articles I posted are referencing the sources.
For example:
On the Kfar Etzion massacre, you can check these sources:
(I would personally recommend B. Morris)
Sources
• L. Collins and D. Lapierre, O Jerusalem!, Grafton Books, 1982, ISBN 0-586-05452-9.
• A. Isseroff Kfar Etzion Remembered: A history of Gush Etzion and the Massacre of Kfar Etzion, 2005.
• I. Levi, Jerusalem in the War of Independence ("Tisha Kabin" - Nine Measures - in Hebrew) Maarachot - IDF, Israel Ministry of Defence, 1986. ISBN 965-05-0287-4
• D. Ohana, Kfar Etzion: the Community of Memory and the myth of return, Israel Studies, vol. 7 no. 2 (2002) 145-174.
• Y. Katz and J. Lehr, Symbolism and landscape: The Etzion Bloc in the Judean Mountains, Middle Eastern Studies, vol. 31 iss. 4 (1995) 730-743.
• J. C. Lehr and Y. Katz, Heritage Interpretation and Politics in Kfar Etzion, Israel, International Journal of Heritage Studies, Vol. 9, No. 3, 2003, 215–228.
• B. Morris, The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews, I.B. Tauris (2003), ISBN 1-86064-989-0.
[edit] References
1. ^ The Etzion Bloc at JVL
2. ^ a b B. Morris, The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews. p. 135–138, 2003.
3. ^ Mark Daryl Erickson, Joseph E. Goldberg, Stephen H. Gotowicki, Bernard Reich, Sanford R. Silverburg (1996). An Historical Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, p. 149. Greenwood. ISBN 0-313-27374-X
4. ^ James Cameron, (British journalist), "The making of Israel", published by Martin Secker & Warburgh Ltd, 1976. SBN 436 08230 6. Page 51. "Seventy Jews were killed, many of them after surrendering, many of them finished off most barbarously by Arab villagers instructed by legionaries."
5. ^ Moshe Dayan, 'The Story of My Life'. ISBN 0 688 03076 9. Page 130. Describes negotiations with Abdulla el-Tel about the release of 670 Israelis in the "Jordan POW camp at Mafrak." 320 of them were from the Etzion bloc, including 85 women.
6. ^ Benny Morris (2008), 1948: An History the First Arab-Israeli War, pp.405-406.
7. ^ Saleh Abdel Jawad (2007), Zionist Massacres: the Creation of the Palestinian Refugee Problem in the 1948 War, in E. Benvenisti & al, Israel and the Palestinian Refugees, Berlin, Heidelberg, New-York : Springer, pp. 59-127
I advocate peace; you advocate a war of Genocide. (I want a peaceful solution between Israelis and Palestinians, and you want to de-countrify Israel by war and force.)
I tell the truth, you tell things which are not truth. (You claim that I answer to the Israeli government, and that’s a falsity)
Tell us what that "peaceful solution" looks like in your opinion.
The Israeli government continues to claim it wants peace, but then it keeps building more colonies on Palestinian land, demolishing Palestinian homes willy-nilly and expelling Palestinians from East Jerusalem.
You never answer that simple question: WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER "PEACE"? DESCRIBE IT!
It's a simple question.
I see two possible peaceful solutions.
1. Two state solutions. A Palestinian state and a Jewish state, living side by side in peace. (In border similar to the 1967 lines, with some corrections on both sides of the line, based on demographics.)
2. One state solution. Jewish Palestinian states, where all Jews and all Palestinians are equal. (Similar to the 1919 Faisal-Weizmann agreement, which was rejected by the Arab side)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement
It's a bit more complicated than that but essentially you're right:
"Chosen people my ass..."
General Smedley Butler: Israel is a racket!
-30-
Why do we have to tolerate this bullshit from Israel? They are the first to bitch about Iran trying to get nukes and Israel has hundreds of illegal nuclear weapons and now with the Jericho 3 missiles, they can reach 5000km, which is bound to piss off Russians and Chinese. Why are these assholes always allowed to do what they want and fuck over everyone...I am sick and tired of the excuse that they are surrounded by enemies and they need to protect themselves and if you disagree with them, you are labelled antisemitic.
Well... is it antisemitic to say that the USA should not give one fucking dime to Israel nor support until they go back to the original UN resolution of land division of 1948 (even then, the Brits fucked everything up by allowing illegal wave after illegal wave of jewish immigrants who took formed guerrilla groups and terrorized arab villages and killed and stole the land, land that the arabs were living in as a majority for over 1200 yrs, screw the bible, you can't let the bible dictate land boundaries) Is it antisemitic to tell Israel to tear doewn the Wall which is essentially another land grab? Is it antisemitic to tell Israel to not kill palestinian civilians? I could go on and on with the wrongs done to the palestinians but the USA in it's stupidity and it's jewish control of media, always backs these fucking assholes. You want peace in the middle east, then the US has to grow a backbone and tell these fuckers to stop settlements and give back the land to palestinians. Chosen people my ass...
If all you have to do to have a peace in the Middle-East is for Israel to evacuate half million Jews (making the territory Jewish free) and withraw from the West bank - than how could you explain that there was no peace before 1967?
After all, between 1948 and 1967, for a period of 19 years, the west bank was ethnically clean of Jews - yet there was no peace.
There was no peace before 1967 because the Brits in their stupidity and two faced promises, told the arabs that if they helped them defeat the Turks (since Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire), in the area, lead by Lawrence of Arabia fame, they would get statehood. They did help the Brits and defeated the Turks but then at the same time Lord Balfour, who was a Millennialist and believed that the Second Coming of Jay-sus could only occur if prohecy was fulfilled by establishing Israel, pushed the Balfour Agreement, which let in illegal wave after illegal wave of jewish immigrants. The arabs never got independence of Palestine, and the jews poured in and fought and killed and massacred arabs, and stole their land. This was in the early 1900's... so that my friend is why there was no peace. How would you like it if I came to your house armed to the teeth and made you live only in the bathroom and I had the rest of the house to myself and justified it by saying that the Bible said my ancestors had this land 2000 yrs ago and you legally have rights to your land and property? Huh? How about them apples????
Letto: The West Bank was never free of Jews. Have you never met or heard of the Samaritans? The Jews who observed only the Pentateuch and not the later accretions of Jewish "history?" They had lived around Nablus for millennia and done so in peace with their Christian and Muslim neighbors (and pre-Christian neighbors, come to that). When Israel expropriated the West Bank it tried, for obvious reasons of propaganda, to get the Samaritans to move to Jerusalem. Most refused and stayed where they'd always lived. A small number were induced to go to "Israel" but most of them returned.
Fair enough, I’m not sure is Samaritans are considered Jews or not, so I’ll rephrase my comments by replacing the word Jews with non-Samaritan Jews.
In 1929 and 1948, all the Jews except for the Samaritans who may or may not be Jews, were ethnically cleansed from the West Bank and Gaza by Arab mob or by Arab armies (The Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, Hebron, Gush-Etzion, Bet-Haarava, Gaza, Kfar Darom, Yad Mordechai etc.)
Between 1948 and 1967, the west bank was ethnically clean of non-Samaritan Jews – Yet there was no peace.
There was no peace because huge numbers of Palestinians had been forced out (and killed in the massacres of several villages) by Irgun in order to make "lebensraum" for the incoming European Jews who were bent on seizing as much territory as possible while the UN dithered. Where do you think the large Palestinian population of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan came from? Have a look around the West Bank and notice the hundreds of mud-brick refugee camps lived in by ejected Palestinians from their homes claimed by the Zionists in 1947 to 1967 (when most, but not all, fled again into Jordan).
Also remember that many of those Arab countries whose Jews felt threatened in 1948 still have Jewish populations today. Some Jews undoubtedly were threatened and forced to leave in retaliation for the eviction of Palestinians from their land. Still, many Arab countries do have Jewish populations.
In 1929 and 1948, all the Jews except for the Samaritans who may or may not be Jews, were ethnically cleansed from the West Bank and Gaza by Arab mob or by Arab armies (The Jewish quarter in Jerusalem, Hebron, Gush-Etzion, Bet-Haarava, Gaza, Kfar Darom, Yad Mordechai etc.)
------------------------------
What's your source? As it stands, what you posted is an outright fabrication.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_(Jerusalem)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre
We're not playing this game again.
You wrote:
"all the Jews ...were ethnically cleansed"
That's what I responded to and that is a fact.
Two or three clashes that resulted in dead Jews, doesn't constitute a systematic ethnic cleansing and it certainly does not point to intent to "[kill] all the Jews" as you claimed.
Again, your argument has no merit.
After these "two or three clashes", no Jews were left in the West bank. (Hebron, the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem or in Kfat Etzion and all others...)
All the (non Samaritans) Jews who lived in the West Bank before 1948 were killed of forced to leave. If this is not ethnic cleansing - I don't know what is.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ethnic+cleansing
ethnic cleansing
–noun the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society, as by genocide or forced emigration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1985–90
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
–noun the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society, as by genocide or forced emigration.
---------------------------------------
I'm not going to stoop low enough to start arguing over semantics when the topic at hand involves the lives of people, or more accurately, the "honor of the dead".
It makes me feel ikky.
If you want to call it ethnic cleansing do so.
But, just a piece of advice, if anyone in the future while discussing the Israeli attack on Gaza earlier this year or the systematic killing of Palestinians by Israel over the last 40 years calls THAT "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide", do yourself a favor and don't claim that it's not as you did here:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/22-7
Letto May 24th, 2009 12:06 pm
Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing - even if the victims are Jews.
The last war in Gaza was not ethnic cleansing nor Genocide.
The Palestinians were not forced to leave Gaza. The IDF didn't try to exterminate the Palestinians.
I see now.
So killing 120 Jews, for example, is genocide in your book.
But, killing 6,500 Palestinians between 2000 and 2009 is NOT ethnic cleansing in your book. Nor is killing 1400 Palestinians in 2009 considered genocide or ethnic cleansing in your book.
And before you ask for a source, here's your source. Just do the math: http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
Now I know who you are and what you're all about.
OK.
End of discussion.
Buh Bye.
Mohawk: “So killing 120 Jews, for example, is genocide in your book.”
I never said it was Genocide. Deliberately killing 120 unarmed people (It doesn’t matter if they are Jews or Palestinians or members of any ethnic group) is not Genocide, but a massacre.
If you have problem understanding meaning of words, there is a great book that can help you. It is called “A dictionary.”
I now need to go to sleep. I have a genocide of a head-hack.
The Samaritans were considered sufficiently (religiously) Jewish for the Israeli government of 1967-8 to attempt to absorb and resettle them in Jerusalem. And, yes, they are different from the present Jews. They were the original Jews who didn't end up in the diasporas in Babylon and Persia (where the Judaism we know as such was created) or those after the Bar Kokhba revolt who fled the Romans to live in other Semitic (i.e. Arab) countries around the Mediterrean and Mesopotamia. And to answer Letto below, yes, they are racially different (whatever that means) from European Jews; they actually are of the same mostly Semitic descent like all those who lived in Palestine before the European Zionist immigrations.
The real question in this thread (started by Diogenes57) is:
Would there be peace in the Middle-East if the West Bank will become clean of Jews.
The Jewishness level of Samaritans is simply a knee-jerk diversion by Rainborowe.
I don’t know if Samaritans are Jews or not. From my perspective, it's up for them to decide.
1. I'm not being paid to post here by anyone.
nativetongueredux doesn’t like to be confronted with facts which contradict his world view, so instead of coming up with data that supports his claims (which I'm sure he won't be able to find), he simply chose the easy way of dismissing my comments by falsely claiming that I'm being paid to post here.
Funny how you cherry pick with which poster to engage.
Are you afraid of being annihilated should you actually address facts that YOU are incapable of defending?
As for your shilling, it's evident that you have no basic concept of the history of the conflict. Everything you keep regurgitating here can be summarily dismissed as spin and half-truths, both of which are the very essence of propaganda.
So why can't you engage in a debate based on facts and sticking to the subject instead of jumping back and forth and cherry picking the events you care to discuss? And then you wonder why you're ridiculed and never taken seriously.
Are you simply incapable? I think so. Your "knowledge" is what we call "shallow and superficial".
You might be more successful on websites like CNN or Fox. See if you can shill there.
I accept your challenge, Mohawk.
Originally, Diogenes57 had a theory. He claimed that if: “You want peace in the middle east, then the US has to grow a backbone and tell these fuckers to stop settlements and give back the land to palestinians.”
In my reply, I asked Diogenes57 to explain, how come there was no peace when there were no West Bank settlements – (The West Bank was clean of all Jewish presence between 1948 and 1967, with the exception of the Samaritans, which are a different ethnic group that may or may not be Jews.)
You ask me to back my statements with proves not from CNN or Fox. Here it is:
Here are a few links that prove that Jews (The non Samaritans Jews) lived in the West Bank before 1948, and that they were ethnically cleansed by Arabs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_(Jerusalem)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre
I also said that between 1948 and 1967 there was no peace in the Middle-East. You can google it if you’re looking for additional proves.
Now it’s your turn. I’ve showed you I’m capable of bringing facts that support my side in the debate. You, Mohawk, are now free to bring your own “facts.” I’m waiting to see how you “prove” me wrong.
The entire premise of your argument is false.
You start by assuming that there is a problem between Jews and Muslims. That's false.
Then you assume that Palestinians are all Muslims. That's false too.
Then you assume that since there are colonies being built daily as we speak on privately-owned Palestinian land and the Palestinians are rejecting such violations of their rights and property - the assumption you make - is that the Palestinians are acting that way because they don't like Jews. That assumption and the underlying logic are both false.
Then you go on to make the assumption that between 1948 and 1967 there were no Jews in the West Bank, and therefore - you conclude, falsely - there had to be peace.
Peace is a nice concept and is a positive state to which all human beings should aspire.
But your use of "peace" is vague. It is vague and out of context because you assume that events exist in a vacuum. That's another illogical and false argument.
The world, time, our cognition of reality and the laws of gravity don't exist in a vacuum. Even in outer space there are gravitational forces.
You can't cherry pick events or stereotypes, lumps them together and organize them like LEGO pieces to build an argument that suits you. It simply doesn't work that way.
Mohawk: “Then you assume that Palestinians are all Muslims. That's false too.”
I never said so nor did I assume so. How did you get to that conclusion? Not all Muslims are Palestinians, and I never said that they are.
Mohawk: “Then you assume that since there are colonies being built daily as we speak on privately-owned Palestinian…”
Not all Settlements were built on privately-owned Palestinian land. Some were built on land owned by Jews who were ethnically cleansed during or before 1948. (Such as the Jewish quarter in East Jerusalem, or Hebron.)
Some Settlements were built on land legally bought from Palestinians who put a “for sale” sign at full asking price.
Some Settlements were built on government land (which was not owned by anyone)
And in some cases – you are correct, Settlements were built on privately-owned Palestinian land. – And this is wrong, and I do not support that last type of settlements.
Mohawk: “Then you go on to make the assumption that between 1948 and 1967 there were no Jews in the West Bank, and therefore - you conclude, falsely - there had to be peace.”
Not true! I suggest you re-read my comment from October 30th, 2009 9:48 pm. I claimed that there was no peace between 1967 and 1948 EVEN THOUGH there was no Jewish Settlement in the West bank. That’s different that saying that there was no peace BECAUSE there were no settlements.
Peace will occur when all sides will stop fighting (violently). I’m not sure on what you mean by referring to vacuum, space and gravitational forces, and why simply wanting peace is vague. Perhaps you’re too intelligent for the likes of me, the simple person who simply want peace.
Any more “proofs?”
Perhaps a proof against one of my hard core claims? Perhaps a proof that there was peace in the Middle East before 1967? Perhaps a proof that there were no Jews living in the West bank before 1948?
Perhaps you’re too intelligent for the likes of me, the simple person who simply want peace.
----------------------------------------------------------
Would you like milk and cookies with that peace? Poor you, that's all you want? Why didn't you say so?
In all seriousness, you can't keep going back and forth between what you wrote and what you meant.
It seems as though you're trying to keep your options open so you're playing this game of semantics.
At first I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that your native language wasn't English, or that you had some kind of medical issue, but now I see that you're bored and are playing a silly childish game.
Perhaps you can explain how you expected there to be peace between 1948 and 1967.
The current problem in the West Bank is not JUST the Jewish only colonies, it's the military occupation.
There was no Israeli occupation between 1948 and 1967 in the West Bank. Israel started the 1967 war to grab more land.
So how does this sit with your concept of peace exactly?
Mohawk: “Israel started the 1967 war to grab more land”
And you blame me for being simplistic?
Although Israel fired the first shot against Egypt (in the case of Jordan and Syria, they were the ones who shoot first) Israel did not start the six-day war. The first act of war was taken by Egypt when they imposed a naval blockade against Israeli civilian shipping in international waters on May 23rd.
Also, Egypt mobilized its forces into the Sinai and expelled the UN peacekeeping forces, (Not acts of war, but still an immediate threat, a clear and present danger.)
Also, Egypt and Syria threatened to exterminate Israel. (Still, no Settlements, remember?)
On May 26, Nasser announced “…the battle against Israel will be a general one and not confined to one spot on the Syrian or Egyptian borders. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel”
Mike Shuster expressed a view that was prevalent in Israel before the war that the country "was surrounded by Arab states dedicated to its eradication. Egypt was ruled by Gamal Abdel Nasser, a firebrand nationalist whose army was the strongest in the Arab Middle East. Syria was governed by the radical Baathist Party, constantly issuing threats to push Israel into the sea.
A simplistic view you say??? Israel simply started the 1967 war against the peace loving Arab regimes simply because it wanted to grab more land???”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
WOW. You personify Cognitive Dissonance and delusional thinking. Bravo. Well played.
Did it occur to you that the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948 may have had something to do with it?
What right did Israel have to come about anyway? What right did the British in 1917 have when they promised Palestine to Zionist elites and lobbyists in the Balfour Declaration?
None.
Mohawk “What right did Israel have to come about anyway?”
Let’s expand that question. By what right did the USA have to come about anyway? What about Canada, France, Turkey, Morocco, China, Russia. Any country for that matter. Why don’t you ask the same question about Liberia?
Israel is a respectable UN member, who joined the UN 60 years ago, before many of the current members.
The real question one should ask is why the obsession with Israel’s right to exist? Why some people think that of all nations, only the Jews are not allowed to have a country (Which unlike many other countries, including the US, also happened to be in the land of their ancestors). This is the only question worthy of being asked on that matter.
Asteroid. Had to be an asteroid.
If a person supports the Palestinians, they cannot be labeled anti-Semitic since the Palestinians are also Semites. Anybody who does so, is simply ignorant and/or stupid.
Ok, Kitty, you may never have heard that one before, but it's an old chestnut and based more on 19th Century racist "anthropology" than anything else. Has it ever occurred to you to think what the basis of that designation, Palestinian, is, and what all it comprises, really, when examined closely? Or do you accept the label given by Israeli political interests? You must realize that Christians are treated similarly unjustly.
There are better arguments for treating human beings with compassion and dignity.
What's happening here is that Israel is finding ways to clear the West Bank of Palestinians. Israel is a master at bending laws and regulations to suit its goals. or completely disregarding them. Its goal is to empty them out from the WBank, dump them all in Gaza, where they can rot and those that haven't already died from disease or malnutrition can wait for the next phosphorus storm. Make Eretz Israel Palestinierfrei.
Another benefit of interfering with the education of young people outside Gaza is that the people will be crippled culturally and helpless to pull themselves out of their misery.
Israel is just USA-ME
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
Back into you prison cell, you brown terrorost Arab-ess!
Boycott Divest Sanctions Now!
I applaud South African dock workers, Hugo Chavez, academic groups across the world, Dr. Ilan Pappe, Dr. Norman Finkelstein, Dr. Schlomo Sand, Naomi Klein, Dennis Bernstein and many others who have taken a brave stance against Israel's crimes and the US support and funding of those crimes.
Since the USA is still the global military hegemon, and the protector of Israel from the rest of the world, huge pressures must be brought to bear against the US ruling elite to stop this madness as well as the US's own (direct)imperial slaughter. International coalitions, like those that helped bring down Apartheid in South Africa, are key.
Some people feel that AIPAC et al. have taken over US policy, however this is a simplistic view. I agree with Ali Abunimah (Electronic Intifada), for example, that US so-called strategic interests overlap with those of Israel and this special relationship is not one sided. Israel serves US imperial interests in the region and that is quite clear, in my opinion. Chomsky aslo agrees on this, for example.
Stories like this describing such petty harassment serve to focus attention on the realities of daily life in the occupied territories. Israel is acting cruelly and stupidly, and that is a feature of nearly every colonial occupying power throughout history. Responses such as thong-girl and Dead GI are also cruel and stupid and add nothing to the discussion.
The two state solution is bullshit. Israelis need to man up and accept the palestinians into their culture. We (the US) should not have relations with such a racist, apartheid country.
The two state solution will never work. What about muslims living with Israel? Are they to continue living as second-class citizens? The comparisons to South Africa are abundant. Israel should be ashamed; we should be ashamed by association.
You're absolutely right. This is a clear example of why the two state solution will not and cannot work.
The only solution is a single state.
I do, however, question your statement that the US should not have relations with such a racist, apartheid country. I understand that the US isn't ACTIVELY promoting racism in Israel, but are we really any better. Does the US have any moral authority to blame Israel, while it murders innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan???
You mean one state solution like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement
This is what Liberal Zionism wanted all along.
So much bloodshed could have been saved, so many wars could have been prevented, if the Arabs had not backed from the one-state-solution 1919 Faisal-Weizmann Agreement.
"So much bloodshed could have been saved"
Spare us your nonsense and lies.
Yet more evidence of an Israeli government pogrom of cultural genocide.
A nuclear Holocaust is simply too good for Israel. They deserve to be wiped off the map, their people fenced into a small herding area, never to breed again.
Thong-girl:
I tend to agree with you, except for the fact that we should be the humane beings the Israelis can't.
I survived the 1967 so-called 6-day war. It was a sham, and a fabricated lie by the PR machine of Israel, to present itself, yet again, as a victim.
I remember the Israeli jets flying above, breaking the sound barrier, because they could! There were no Arab defenses, it was just a story made up to beef up the image of Israel as a ferocious fighter, a country with the army that can't be defeated (yeah right! - just think 1000 Hizbu Allah fighters, 2007).
Anyway, my solution is more humane ... if you are born in Palestine before 1936 (with legitimate documentation) you/your descendants get to stay, otherwise, better start renewing them European and Russian passports. The next generations of Palestinians, aren't going to be civil about avenging their parents and stolen land.
Until then, join me in calling this thuggish and illegitimate state by its new name, State Of Unreal.
You are right on the money kid....
Thong-girl is on the mark, but it will not be enough to control and isolate the apartheid state of israhell. So here's just how bad it is for israhell. Just this week alone; Hugo Chavez has just banned all israeli tourist from entering Venezuela, another US jew was busted by the US justice department for passing classified information to israhell agents, and two jews were shot in Los Angeles.
What are you trying to say, Dead GI, that randomly shooting Jews in L.A is desirable?
Letto: oh no, god forbids!
Only Jews are allowed to massacre others, in the US and abroad:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/09/Rubin_230905.html
read on, and spare us the image of the poor victimized Zionist. You know your numbers are dwindling, the more the world knows about your lies and deceit. My question is, if you love the criminal state so much, why live anywhere else? I think it is anti-American to love a country that spy against the US, don't you think?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15222134/
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iYPSE1gjXXr3aqw5e5Dde19vNnCg
Letto: oh no, god forbids!
Only Jews are allowed to massacre others, in the US and abroad:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/09/Rubin_230905.html
read on, and spare us the image of the poor victimized Zionist. You know your numbers are dwindling, the more the world knows about your lies and deceit. My question is, if you love the criminal state so much, why live anywhere else? I think it is anti-American to love a country that spy against the US, don't you think?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15222134/
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iYPSE1gjXXr3aqw5e5Dde19vNnCg
Absolutely not Letto, but it's not looking too terribly good for jews in amerikca these days, particularly those who support the zionist regime in israhell. But was the shooting in LA random or was it just a bunch of college kids having fun?