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US Insists Cluster Bombs Not Bad if Used 'Responsibly'
GENEVA, Switzerland -- Cluster bombs, which nearly 100 countries are seeking to ban, should not be considered bad as long as states involved in conflicts use them responsibly, a senior United States official said on Wednesday.
The official, who declined to be identified, also told a background briefing that Washington was planning to create a "quick reaction force", or QRF, to handle threats to civilians from remnants of war, like cluster bombs.
The official's remarks, which could not be quoted directly, clearly confirmed that Washington -- like Russia, China and some other powers -- remained opposed to banning the weapon.
He spoke as negotiators on updating a 1981 international agreement on especially dangerous conventional weapons (CCW) met in Geneva to prepare for "expert discussions" on cluster weapons next year under the United Nations umbrella.
Cluster munitions include a variety of weapons that can spread up to hundreds of bomblets over a target area. Up to 30 percent fail to explode, posing a threat to civilians for many years after a conflict.
The International Committee of the Red Cross says some 400 million people in countries and regions like Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and Russia's Chechnya live in effective minefields, under daily threat of maiming from cluster bombs.
Other campaigners say at least 13,000 civilians are known to have been killed or injured by the bombs -- used heavily most recently by Israel in its 2006 war against Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon -- in recent years.
OSLO PROCESS
Norway has been leading an international effort known as the "Oslo Process" to shape a treaty banning the weapon by a meeting in Dublin in May this year, which would then be open for signature before the end of 2008.
Campaigning group Cluster Munitions Coalition (CMC) says nearly 100 countries had come out in support of a ban by the last meeting in Vienna in December, although some like Germany, France Italy and Japan want a transitional period first.
CMC said after the Vienna gathering, attended by representatives from 138 countries that a lot of progress had been made on clearing affected areas and a deadline for destroying stockpiles.
"And those who do not sign the treaty need to be very aware what the international community will think of them," CMC spokesman Thomas Nash declared at the time.
At Wednesday's briefing, the senior U.S. official said Washington did not view the CCW talks, in which 103 countries are taking part, as in competition with Oslo but that they should be the prime focus for dealing with cluster weapons.
He said that the CCW should focus on ensuring that countries knew how to use the weapons in a way that was in full accordance with international humanitarian law.
A printed statement from U.S. officials said that "in keeping with the United States commitment to deal comprehensively with all threats posed by conventional weapons and explosive remnants of war" it would shortly move towards creating a QRF.
The move would come in the form of a "procurement notice" to develop the force.
"This force would respond globally to short notice and emergent humanitarian operations that require the removal or mitigation of explosive hazards to protect civilian populations," the statement said.
Editing by Charles Dick
© Reuters 2007.



59 Comments so far
Show AllYeah, Bush wants to bomb Iran and is doing what he can to get y'all to support it.
RE: "US Insists Cluster Bombs Not Bad if Used 'Responsibly"
The NRA says the same thing about handguns.
Toronto Mayor David Miller was close to tears today (real tears, not Hillary tears) as he talked about the need to close loopholes allowing "so-called gun collectors" to own handguns.
"GENEVA, Switzerland - Cluster bombs, which nearly 100 countries are seeking to ban, should not be considered bad as long as states involved in conflicts use them responsibly, a senior United States official said on Wednesday."
Responsibly? How can something that kills people indiscriminately ever be used responsibly?
NEWEST AMERICAN BUMPER STICKERS
1) (On an infant's shirt): Already smarter than Bush
2) 1/20/09: End of an Error
3) That's OK, I Wasn't Using My Civil Liberties Anyway
4) If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran
5) Bush. Like a Rock. Only Dumber.
6) You Can't Be Pro-War and Pro-Life at the Same Time
7) Hey, Bush Supporters: Embarrassed Yet?
8) If You Can Read This, You're Not Our President
9) Of Course It Hurts: You're Getting Screwed by an Elephant
10) Which God Do You Kill For?
11) George Bush: Creating the Terrorists Our Kids Will Have to Fight
14) America : One Nation, Under Surveillance
15) They Call Him "W" So He Can Spell It
16) Who Would Jesus Torture?
17) When Bush Took Office, Gas Was $1.46 a gallon
18) Jail to the Chief
19) No, Seriously, Why did we Invade Iraq?
20) Bush: God's Way of Proving Intelligent Design is Full of Crap
21) Right!, like Jesus Would Own a Gun and Vote Republican!
22) We Need a President Who's Fluent In At Least One Language
23) We're Making Enemies Faster Than We Can Kill Them
24) Bush Doesn't Care About White People, Either
25) Where Are We Going? And Why Are We In This Handbasket?
26) Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Blood
27) Is It Vietnam Yet?
28) The Republican Party: Our Bridge to the 11th Century
30) You Elected Him. You Deserve Him.
like Russia, China and some other powers
Would this be refering to Israel?
Why ban cluster bombs? I mean just because the current production run (at least as used in Afghanistan) has the bomblets painted in a 'caution' yellow that is identical to the shade used on food aid packets. The same food aid packets that were dropped in the middle of the area just hit by the cluster bomb runs.
Talk about putting the 'pop' in 'Poptarts'!
Let's face it folks. The entire US economy is predicated upon the use of war as an econimic engine. GE, which owns NBC, derives most of it's income not from selling refrigerators, but nuclear powered submarines. Chrysler's best seller is not their SUV, it's the M-1 Main Battle Tank. McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed make their money building expensive and fuel guzzling fighters and long range bombers, not passenger aircraft. Most of the kids who were shot in the Columbine, Colorado massacre had parents employed by Raetheon and McDonnell Douglas, building cruise missiles.
US nuclear reactors are not online to produce electricity these days. Producing Depleted Uranium (DU) for use in artillery shell penetrators, yes. Converting Uranium into Plutonium for use in nuclear weapons, yes. The generation of electricity is at best, a fortuituous by-product. If I remember correctly, the first nuclear reactors were not built to produce electricty at all.
Without the voratious demand of the US consumer culture, for produce, oil, finished goods and IT services there would be no need for the US imperial ambitions. If you look at a map, and put a pin in each place there is a US military faclity,and a different coulored pin in each place a US economic interest or corporate interest is, you will see something interesting. Both pins you place will be in the same countries.
TO KEM and others who I know pay attention to such things, I appologise for preaching to the choir. But I am sure there may be some newbies and those who are as yet uninformed about the extent of the US military/industrial/corporate presence in the world, and the lengths to which it will go to protect that percieved dominance.
The U.S. will create a Quick Reaction Force!
What the hell are they going to do? Find all the bomblets they dropped that didn't go off?
They have about 20 years of bombing to clean up before they can catch up to the present.
I seem to recall Clinton refused to be a part of a ban on landmines back in the 90s as well.
"should not be considered bad as long as states involved in conflicts use them responsibly" >>> i.e. as long as its the US or its allies (Israel) get to use them.
Sort of like torture-- water torture is only torture when someone does it to an American.
American exceptionalism again...
I wonder how many of the countries that want to ban cluster bombs have been targets of the same?
If you look at the number of UN resolutions that might have helped peace proposed UN you will see that the US is always on the war side. God we are a horrible people. http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html This just isn't under Bush it goes back to the 70s. Thirty Plus years for wreaking havoc on the rest of the world.
EZEFLYER, you made my year.
Cluster bombs could be compared to baby toys, if compared to the danger of the DU ammo and bombs we use. Of course they'd be far more dangerous than baby toys coated with lead based paint or those small enough to swallow.
It is really sad to realize, that thirty some years ago, manufacturing jobs in the United States were 34% of the total jobs and now it's near 12% and most of that 12% is manufacturing weapons of war. We truly are screwed.
"ensuring that countries knew how to use the weapons in a way that was in full accordance with international humanitarian law" I read this and get the same horrified reaction I do to formulations like: "humane capital punishment". A cold chill at the realisation that many people can say or read this and not perceive the total disjuction between feeling and thought it represents. Such a society is capable of any inhumanity.
Is there any hope at all for this country? I know that Israel is hopeless due to the regimes there. Can we ever get one in this country to change things, or will it continue until we are all just a dim memory in time?
Kitty: Head for the tall timber(what's left of it). Learn how to grow a garden. Teach your children to hide from men wearing uniforms and carrying guns. Live low to the ground and off the grid. Be free.
As for the majority of the sheeple... Let them sit by the roadside, waiting for the next government to save them, all the while remembering what they had, and how they pissed it away.
Somehow I think it would be easier for opponents of cluster bombs to make a case before Americans led by Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, than before Americans led by George W. Bush. Just a hunch.
DDJ: Barack will be lucky to survive the campaign, provided he isn't assassinated by some Bush backing cracker, ala MLK.
And HR Clinton is just Bush in drag.
ezeflyer,
Terrific! I like #15, 17, 28, &,30, the best.
NMBill,
Whatever Israel does is perfectly legal and justifiably, whether killing Palestinian children and babies, (future terrorists) or dropping cluster bombs for maiming or killing Lebanese children.
KEM PATRICK,
Pretty soon all we'll be manufacturing in the USA are weapons of mass destruction to back up our 'bully philosophy of might makes right."
With the dumbbells we are producing, they will be no match for a real army...say Chinese?
one more for NEWEST AMERICAN BUMPER STICKERS:
Last time anyone listened to a bush, folks got stranded in the desert for 40 years.
Peaceman: China has the population so great that they could walk over here with a rock in each hand and taking into account their massive casualties, STILL knock the living crap out of the US military.
Bumper sticker inspired by Homer Simpson:
'Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos!'
The warmongering, war-profiteering, weapons-dealing nation, the U.S., needs to be sanctioned. I used to be proud of it, now I'm just ashamed of it. Cluster bombs kill innocent civilians --- including and especially children :(
Hillary voted FOR cluster bombs; Obama voted against. This was a Feinstein amendment last year. I posted it to the Obama website.
There is no such thing as responsible use of cluster bombs.
Galen,
That's why we don't threaten them. And they know it.
I agree. There is no such thing as responsible use of cluster bombs.
In the Terror Wars, the terrorists with superior implements of terror should be allowed to use them. How else to grow a strong terror-based economy?
Responsible use of cluster bombs would be to swallow them.
ezeflyer, love your post :)
Thank you.
KEM,
Your quote, "now it's near 12% and most of that 12% is manufacturing weapons of war."
Manufacture of durable and non-durable goods = 2.9 trillion dollars 2007
Military procurement budget = 84.2 billion dollars 2007
You are getting better with your made up statistics. You were only off by a factor of 35 this time instead of your usual three or four orders of magnitude.
Ken
Galen,
While I agree with you that we spend far too much money on weapons, the discussion is not helped if we don't have the facts.
"GE, which owns NBC, derives most of it's income not from selling refrigerators, but nuclear powered submarines."
I don't know where that comes from. Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics builds nearly all US nuke subs.
"Chrysler's best seller is not their SUV, it's the M-1 Main Battle Tank."
While it was designed by Chrysler back in the 70's it is manufactured by General Dynamics.
"McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed make their money building expensive and fuel guzzling fighters and long range bombers, not passenger aircraft."
McDonnel Douglas doesn't even exist anymore, it was bought out by Boeing and military sales are dwarfed by the sales of Boeing's Commercial Aircraft Group.
"US nuclear reactors are not online to produce electricity these days. Producing Depleted Uranium (DU) for use in artillery shell penetrators, yes. Converting Uranium into Plutonium for use in nuclear weapons, yes. The generation of electricity is at best, a fortuituous by-product. If I remember correctly, the first nuclear reactors were not built to produce electricty at all."
You do remember correctly that the first full-scale reactors in the country were built for the production of plutonium. But I don't know where you come by any of the rest. DU is a by-product of the enrichment process, it is not made in reactors. There is no plutonium production going on anymore and hasn't been for quite some time. The last US production reactor, the N reactor at Hanford was shut down in 1989. There is a large surplus of plutonium that the Department of Energy is trying to figure out how to dispose of. The most likely use will to blend it into mixed oxide fuel to be burned in a reactor.
Ken
Martin Luther King Jr. nominated Thich Nhat Hanh for the Nobel Peace Prize. In order to honor the spirit of Martin Luther King day this year I encourage everyone to follow Thich Nhat Hanh's sentiment that you can remove the bombs but you still have the problem that will manifest in another way, thus, to honor Martin and Ty, and all of humanity, please take action on the important historic opportunity to get to the roots of cluster bomb, du munitions and modern corporate war itself, by joining with Representative Wexler and others on impeaching Cheney (and then Bush).
www.wexlerwantshearings.com
-responsible use of cluster bombs.
Only a stupid U S military or government person could make such a statement.
Thanks for the correction Kend, I did pop that last comment off the top of my dome. The the 12% and 34% figures are accurate.
Spartacus - "and seized the West Bank in order to settle Jews on it, (illegal according to the Geneva Conventions,) "
Seizing the WB may have been illegal, but not under the Geneva Conventions, but the UN Charter. The GC cover ONLY the treatment of civilians in wartime, prisoners of war and sailors in wartime. Chemical weapons and nuclear weapons and cluster bombs and mines are NOT covered here but in other various treaties.
Whenever people here on this board quote a treaty, they tend to get it wrong. It is worth reading the text of the treaties and the UN Charter as they are all rather short considering their importance. You can access all the texts of the treaties from Wikipedia.
Bill Clinton refused to sign the treaty banning landmines, and Hillary voted against restricting the sale of cluster bombs to countries that undertake not to use them in civilian areas. This says more about their ethical standards than any of the focus group tested, warm rhetoric they employ on the campaign trail. It's record, not rhetoric, that counts. Talk is cheap and, for the Clintons, so is life.
9/11 was as much of an orgasm for Falls Church, VA based General Dynamics as it was for Raytheon. Slaughtering people and blowing apart infrastructure needs to be mandated in a sensitive patriotic way, there's just too much money in it. Too much money for any thing less then man's worst lust for destruction. The 'people' who build, design, sell and deliver death aren't raging psychopaths, they're engineers, politicians and well dressed salesmen with complete sets of intrisic beliefs, pride and honor. Less fortunate souls die under the weight of their transactions.
Didn't General Patton once say something about the purpose of war is not to give your life for your country, but to make that other fellow give his life for his country?
Isn't that the purpose of mines, cluster bombs, napalm, bunker busters, A-10 warthogs, helicopter gunships... Why go in to man to man combat when you can just push a button and then mop up the mess?
The US has been the arroganr self annointed "world's poliecman" since WWII. Time for a change.
Cluster bombs are an offensive (in both meanings) and that is why Russia, China, and the USA (and most likely Israel)want to maintain their use, and will continue to use them. Who said that colonial power is dead?
By any means neccessary.
so it goes
when the time comes best to kill all these ceo of military companies in their houses
aka Term Limits
12 million mexicans with guns, gotta love it
you stupid gringos ['sheeples'] do not even know
when the signal comes,
very soon unless their is real change
black muslim man is probably best, but then again they are all fucking corrupt
Viva La Revolucion
SERONPESCADO, don't for a minute think we don't know that potential. This week in Tijuana, the Mexican drug cartel boys murdered five of the top level Mexican State Policemen in their homes, including some of their family members, wives and children and drivers, after the police arrested several of their cartel members. They were all armed with AK-47s and sub machine guns. That's why we who live near your border are prepared. It's a shame isn't it?
Well I'm part of the US. The only problem is I'm not getting represented. My own congressman [a democrat, Rick Larsen] voted for the war and has voted funding for the war every time it came up. He's on the armed services commitee. I quit corresponding with him because it's just a waste of time.
I saw a picture of him vigorously shaking McCains hand looking like some sort of lovesick groupie. I told him I now considered him a war criminal because of his continued support for the war after finding out it was all based on lies. All of congress save a few I now consider to be war criminals.
"...should not be considered bad as long as states involved in conflicts use them responsibly, a senior United States official said on Wednesday."
Good one. New Speak. Kill people you can't even see responsibly. 1984.
"Up to 30 percent fail to explode, posing a threat to civilians for many years after a conflict."
Oops! Oh well, so much for responsibly.
"And those who do not sign the treaty need to be very aware what the international community will think of them."
Hah! I think we already know.
GOOD BUSH?
One you can smoke the leaves of
BAD BUSH?
Smokes your house & neighborhood
Here's one more, ezeflyer:
VOTE FOR BUSH AND GET DICK
Got another bumper sticker to add to ezeflyer's list -- this is from a car in my neighborhood:
Be nice to America, or we'll bring democracy to your country.
Thanks lilulu.
I wonder how many caught the significance of the comments posted by (SERONPESCADO) here Jan 16th at 8:58pm ?
If the depression hits, that will be the signal he/she refers to. "12 Million" armed People pouring across our southern border will be a lot of people. When one million Chinese poured across the border of North Korea, our army and marine divisions got their asses kicked there for awhile. I take that threat posted here very seriously.
Anyone here heard of ATK, the company we sold the Canadarm technology to (along with the Canadarm)? Seems that they make cluster bombs too:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/01/16/bc-satelliterdeveloper.html
You remember Lloyd - he wrote some articles for Common Dreams a few years back.
RE: - 11) George Bush: Creating the Terrorists Our Kids Will Have to Fight / 23) We're Making Enemies Faster Than We Can Kill Them / 26) Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Blood
Steve Earle fan, eh? Speaking about creating enemies - I finally saw an excerpt of the MSNBC debate and, while I expected Obama to state that he was Christian and sworn in on the bible - he seemed to have missed the opportunity for inclusion there. If Canada can have Muslim and Jewish and Sikh and bisexual MPs then why couldn't there be a President from one or more of these groups? Seems that Obama is too afraid to tackle head on America's need to create enemies by demonising whole segments of humanity. Did either of the other two candidates in the debate correct this grave error or were they equally chicken?
RE: - The same food aid packets that were dropped in the middle of the area just hit by the cluster bomb runs.
There was a scene like that in Deborah Ellis's children's book, Parvana's Journey. Deborah Ellis said that scenes like that happened a lot in Afghanistan.
RE: - US nuclear reactors are not online to produce electricity these days. Producing Depleted Uranium (DU) for use in artillery shell penetrators, yes. Converting Uranium into Plutonium for use in nuclear weapons, yes. The generation of electricity is at best, a fortuituous by-product.
So is the US accusing Iran of stuff that it is doing itself - pretending to only be using the reactors for electricity? Note that your Uranium still comes from Canada.
RE: - I appologise for preaching to the choir. But I am sure there may be some newbies and those who are as yet uninformed about the extent of the US military/industrial/corporate presence in the world, and the lengths to which it will go to protect that percieved dominance.
Don't. We should all be making ourselves newbie friendly even when responding to something written by someone who knows more about the topic than we do. Not being newbie friendly excludes people - and if it is wrong when Huckapee excludes gay muslims ...
There is something very cliquish about the desire to make and use clusterbombs - "we" always used them against "them."
RE: - I seem to recall Clinton refused to be a part of a ban on landmines back in the 90s as well.
Point taken. Was it because Clinton did not want to be part of the ban or because he did not want to stand up to those in Congress/Senate/Pentagon who did not want to be part of the ban. Same difference, though.
RE: - I wonder how many of the countries that want to ban cluster bombs have been targets of the same?
Galen, you know for a fact than only "roadside bombs" have killed more Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan than even Americans have. Seems that he "roadside bombs" are becoming more powerful that they were a few years ago.
Anyone here from the UK? Seems that, despite Princess Diana's plea, the UK hasn't banned them either. I wonder what the leading causes of British casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan because I don't know.
RE: - Hillary voted FOR cluster bombs; Obama voted against. This was a Feinstein amendment last year. I posted it to the Obama website.
What do Edwards, Nader, Danny Glover or Kucinich think of them?
RE: - Well I'm part of the US. The only problem is I'm not getting represented. My own congressman [a democrat, Rick Larsen] voted for the war and has voted funding for the war every time it came up. He's on the armed services commitee. I quit corresponding with him because it's just a waste of time
Do you have numeration meeting where you go to vote for which Dem represents your riding. If so, you may be able to get someone else other than Rick Larsen to be the Dem candidate for your riding. What is the American term for "riding association"? You know, for your voting district.
RE: - McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed make their money building expensive and fuel guzzling fighters and long range bombers, not passenger aircraft.
Speaking of Lockheed Martin (the company who did the last Canadian census), guess who Canada just bought their planes from! Seems as if Lockheed's "Super-Hercules cargo plane" just replaced our apt named Seakings! Seems as if the contract was not opened up to competition (which usually hints of corporate smooching). Anyone here know a few more details about these planes than we have been given?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080116/cargo_contract_080116/20080116/
I wonder what Karlheinz Schreiber knows (or suspects) about all this.
SPARTACUS says: "Because for 90 years now they have had a conscious program of gradually acquiring more and more control of the media, so that the American public only gets to ever hear the Jewish side of any argument or event." This is a ridiculous statement! The "they" you speak about is about as clear as comedian Alan King's use of "they." 90 years ago Jews were struggling against massive antisemitism in this nation. In the past 10-20 years, Jews have had a lot more influence in media; and the conglomeration of media has narrowed the voice(s) of what gets heard. How immune to purge was Hollywood during the McCarthy phase? How influential in getting the US to enter WW II? Today there is a pro-Israeili prejudice in media, but your historical timing on this phenomenon is way off.
KEM: Your statistics on domestic manufacturing means that sooner then later citizens will either agree to work FOR the death machine, learn to go back to simplicity (lives off the grid) or starve.
Well Sue, yeah, those stats come from the candidates and the economic pundants who spoke on the issue during the Michigan pre-election debates. Were down to 12 % of our work force in manufacturing jobs. Of course if we do any shoppping it is self evident, it's darn hard to find anythng made in America that isn't paper or plastic. We still manufacture weapons of war, vehicles, and lots of things made are made in America. Not enough is now made here to help keep us from having a depression.