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Beware School 'Reformers'
Progressives are in short supply on the president-elect's list of cabinet nominees. When he turns his attention to the Education Department, what are the chances he'll choose someone who is educationally progressive?If we taught babies to talk as most skills are taught in school, they would memorize lists of sounds in a predetermined order and practice them alone in a closet. --Linda Darling-Hammond
In fact, just such a person is said to be in the running and, perhaps for that very reason, has been singled out for scorn in Washington Post and Chicago Tribune editorials, a New York Times column by David Brooks and a New Republic article, all published almost simultaneously this month. The thrust of the articles, using eerily similar language, is that we must reject the "forces of the status quo" which are "allied with the teachers' unions" and choose someone who represents "serious education reform."
To decode how that last word is being used here, recall its meaning in the context of welfare (under Clinton) or environmental laws (under Reagan and Bush). For Republicans education "reform" typically includes support for vouchers and other forms of privatization. But groups with names like Democrats for Education Reform--along with many mainstream publications--are disconcertingly allied with conservatives in just about every other respect. To be a school "reformer" is to support:
§ a heavy reliance on fill-in-the-bubble standardized tests to evaluate students and schools, generally in place of more authentic forms of assessment;
§ the imposition of prescriptive, top-down teaching stand-ards and curriculum mandates;
§ a disproportionate emphasis on rote learning--memorizing facts and practicing skills--particularly for poor kids;
§ a behaviorist model of motivation in which rewards (notably money) and punishments are used on teachers and students to compel compliance or raise test scores;
§ a corporate sensibility and an economic rationale for schooling, the point being to prepare children to "compete" as future employees; and
§ charter schools, many run by for-profit companies.
Notice that these features are already pervasive, which means "reform" actually signals more of the same--or, perhaps, intensification of the status quo with variations like one-size-fits-all national curriculum standards or longer school days (or years). Almost never questioned, meanwhile, are the core elements of traditional schooling, such as lectures, worksheets, quizzes, grades, homework, punitive discipline and competition. That would require real reform, which of course is off the table.
Sadly, all but one of the people reportedly being considered for Education secretary are reformers only in this Orwellian sense of the word. The exception is Linda Darling-Hammond, a former teacher, expert on teacher quality and professor of education at Stanford. The favored contenders include assorted governors and two corporate-style school chiefs: Arne Duncan, whose all-too-apt title is "chief executive officer" of Chicago Public Schools, and his counterpart in New York City, former CEO and high-powered lawyer Joel Klein.
Duncan, a basketball buddy of Obama's, has been called a "budding hero in the education business" by Bush's former Education secretary, Rod Paige. Just as the test-crazy nightmare of Paige's Houston served as a national model (when it should have been a cautionary tale) in 2001, so Duncan would bring to Washington an agenda based on Renaissance 2010, which Chicago education activist Michael Klonsky describes as a blend of "more standardized testing, closing neighborhood schools, militarization, and the privatization of school management."
Duncan's philosophy is shared by Klein, who is despised by educators and parents in his district perhaps more than any superintendent in the nation [see Lynnell Hancock, "School's Out," July 9, 2007]. In a survey of 62,000 New York City teachers this past summer, roughly 80 percent disapproved of his approach. Indeed, talk of his candidacy has prompted three separate anti-Klein petitions that rapidly collected thousands of signatures. One, at StopJoelKlein.org, describes his administration as "a public relations exercise camouflaging the systematic elimination of parental involvement; an obsessively test-driven culture; a growing atmosphere of fear, disillusionment, and intimidation experienced by professionals; and a flagrant manipulation of school data." (The only petition I know of to promote an Education secretary candidate is one for Darling-Hammond, at www.petitiononline.com/DHammond/petition.html.)
Duncan and Klein pride themselves on new programs that pay students for higher grades or scores. Both champion the practice of forcing low-scoring students to repeat a grade--a strategy that research overwhelmingly finds counterproductive. Coincidentally, Darling-Hammond wrote in 2001 about just such campaigns against "social promotion" in New York and Chicago, pointing out that politicians keep trotting out the same failed get-tough strategies "with no sense of irony or institutional memory." In that same essay, she also showed how earlier experiments with high-stakes testing have mostly served to increase the dropout rate.
Duncan and Klein, along with virulently antiprogressive DC schools chancellor Michelle Rhee, are celebrated by politicians and pundits. Darling-Hammond, meanwhile, tends to be the choice of people who understand how children learn. Consider her wry comment that introduces this article: it's impossible to imagine a comparable insight coming from any of the spreadsheet-oriented, pump-up-the-scores "reformers" (or, for that matter, from any previous Education secretary). Darling-Hammond knows how all the talk of "rigor" and "raising the bar" has produced sterile, scripted curriculums that have been imposed disproportionately on children of color. Her viewpoint is that of an educator, not a corporate manager.
Imagine--an educator running the Education Department.



172 Comments so far
Show Allduplicate comment:error,erased.
The word "reform"(and "reformer", one who does)used to have a real meaning. Now it's more doublespeak. Joel Klein is a bad choice for anything to do with education. Please read my/other comments on the Greg Palast article on this site, "Obama's Brownie Moment" same topic.
Alfie Kohn is one of America's treasures. He has been a leading voice for encouraging the use of cooperative effort in place of, or at least together with, that of competition, as an M.O. in education and in life. Economists in particular need to read his earlier books, including "No Contest," and "The Brighter Side of Human Nature."
As near as I can tell, this writer wants to continue the "progressive" methods of education that have led to the disaster that is out education system today.
God forbid we should have rote learning which is how people learn facts. Lets continue to make our students "feel good" no matter that they learn nothing. Lets make sure they are sensatized, but the hell with learning how to think, write or spell. Lets keep telling them its not thie fault if they don't study.
Progressives hold just as much guilt as the right with their useless testing and insistance on bi-lingual education to surpress our Latino children.
Yes, politicians keep trotting out the same failed get-tough strategies, but so do the progressive educators trot out their failed stratgeies and failed theories. The proof is in what they have produced at every level of education.
So lets not try to blame one side, there is plenty of blame to go around.
Thomas More: we disagree here. I was a teacher. You can't blame the mess of the school system on progressives, because it's never been tried, except in some college "lab" oncampus schools. (I student taught in one decades ago.) That's one thing.
The other is bilingual education: this is an anecdotal story and observation/paying attention in NYC: I deliberately put my child into a bilingual class long ago, to get the extra education. It was a great idea. Part of my choice was based on the great young man teacher.
People who are immigrants to NYC have loved bilingual education. I think NYC has more than 150 languages, and I'm not sure how many are given in bilingual settings. It's so much easier for a kid to learn, while dealing with coming to a new country when there's classes in their native language. I am not going to argue with you.
"Testing" is not a platform of progressives, it is the "reformers"...a misnomer that I was talking about in a comment. The so called "reformers" are the business people like Joel Klein:total top down authoritarian administration.
Did you ever read "Summerhill"? That was progressive education. Old, but good book. What's your idea of progressive education? I was/am a fabulous teacher. (No longer working in schools.)
Thats OK, pile on!
Let me try and clarify. (and a caveat...I can only speak with surety about Texas)
Firstly, of course people like bi-linguial education, their children don't have to learn another language for their education. The later you learn a language the harder it is. If you do not become profecient in English in America you can assure yourself of a life of poverty or at best second class status. Surely you won't disagree with that? There is no great demand for people that can't communicate. Even Americans that don't read, write or speak English well are in the same boat.
Yes we certainl disagree on this, very much. Maybe New York is different, maybe your non English speakers are smarter, but its not working here.
I believe you'll find its only Spanish bi-lingual although I believe NY opened a Madrassa not long ago for Muslim students.
Businsess interests prefer bi-lingual as it surpress's the advancement of Latinos and assures a larger unskilled working class.
Every single time that students from bi-lingual programs are compared with English immersion, the bi-lingual students are far behind in learning. Empirical fact. Our Texas students tails get kicked by Arizona students every time.
I would suggest that putting your English speaking child in a bi-lingual class is far different than a non English speaking immigrant, your child already spoke English. This is not a cultural issue if that was what you mean, this is strictly a matter of education and the future of these kids as they move through school.
If they do not master English in the primary grades their chance of dropping out is quite enhanced. If they are not proficient by high school, even more. The Latino drop out rate in High School hhas reached over 50%. This is a primary reason, but of course not the only one.
There is also the matter of the cost of bi-lingual classes to our own students. I'd suggest that in New York, especially when you were teaching there weren't quite as many immigrants as now, and certainly not the huge number of illegal immigrants. We have far, far more in Texas than you do. Ardee in California has even more than we do. The cost is staggering, but the cost opposed to outcome is disasterous.
Testing is certainly not a platform of progressives. So true here. We have social promotion, do the work or not, you are promoted because the theory is it would damage the childs self worth. Take a look at what passes for a History text book now and you wonder what country you are in.
Testing like that mandated by "No Child Left Behind", The TASS here in Texas are jokes. Our SAT scores are falling along with most others. That kind of testing is absurd and proves nothing.
Thomas More:Because I like you, I am replying to you. It's based on the many comments you have made in the time I've been reading you on CD.
I think you are wrong about immigrants in NYC. Google that one. We have about 150 languages spoken here. (I'm not sure of the amount.) Bilingual education in NYC is great and fought hard for and won. Your comment re "smarter" immigrants in NYC is a bit biased,yes? The majority of NYers of a certain age group are now immigrants. Text books have never been good, that I recall. That's a separate matter. Most of what ardee said, I agree with, so I won't repeat it. "social promotion" is a straw dog.
The real issue is why does the school system FAIL to educate its students? The business oriented media, right wing BLAME THE VICTIM in re education*, as in all else in this country. The poor get rotten education, rotten health care, rotten housing,rotten garbage pickup, rotten police protection (more chance of being stopped/frisked/shot by NYPD than protected in NYC), etc. I keep giving you sources, which have you looked at? please look at www.cssny.org Community Service Society. Where are you centrist?
*Exception to blame the victim is when business-driven media,Mayor, Joel Klein want to demonize teachers in an effort to do "union busting" and depress wages of teachers by playing "merit" pay is a solution. Teachers do not set curriculum, nor policy. Teachers and parents need involvement (as natural allies),with input from kids, on what should and how, be taught.
Kind of you to answer. Even kinder to say that you like me. Appreciated.
""social promotion" is a straw dog."
I simply can't agree. When a child is promoted to the next grade after failing to learn the work in the prior grade (ie failed...F) I simply don't see that as a straw dog and frankly it puzzles me how you do? Do you think its a good idea to promote a child just for showing up? Consider...if you can't pass the work at 8th grade level, can you pass at the 10th grade level? It simply makes no sense to me.
You mistake me if you believe I'm blaming teachers or Teachers unions. The blame rests aquarely on the folks that set curriculum and policy, that push theories. Those that choose books, those that set curriculum for teacher training. And parents...lets not forget them. I as a liberal am at fault for letting them. Conservatives are also at fault for the same reasons.
We need to remove politics and ideologies from education and return to teaching kids how to think, basic values, basic civics, history, etc. No more telling them what to think.
As far as immigrants go we may be speasking of different problems. Texas has a fair number of legal immigrants that are no pearticular problem. We have over two million illegal aliens that are a huge problem. Most of our legal Latino residents want English immersion because bi-lingual holds their kids back.
English immersion has proved in every instance to be superior to bi-lingual in teaching kids English and hastening their education and assimilation. By student measure it is irrefutable.
I've been very involved in this for three years now, I'm very familiar with Texas schools and our problems. Our legislature returns to session this coming year (meets every two years) and our commission will be in Austin to deliver our recommendations. Cutting bio-lingual will be one of them. Ending promotion to the next grade without passing the current grade will be another. Restoring discipline to the classroom is another, but we are all over the board on how to do it. We are currently studying how the schools that are producing good students from bad students from our systems are doing it.
"
Most of our legal Latino residents want English immersion because bi-lingual holds their kids back.
English immersion has proved in every instance to be superior to bi-lingual in teaching kids English and hastening their education and assimilation. By student measure it is irrefutable.
"
YES!
-- EKATON --
Children throughout Europe seem to be doing just fine. Children CAN and SHOULD learn multiple languages. Tell me... How many countries south of our border speak Spanish? ... ....
We are not speaking of learning multiple languages, we are speaking of learning English in America for non speaking immigrants and illegal aliens.
How many countries south of our border speak Spanish? ...
Most already speak Spanish.
.Nevertheless the overall point of that post is a correct one, we are an egocentric nation and think everyone should learn to speak our language while we have no need to learn theirs.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Now, now....you two guy's know that its not egocentrism, its the fact the America's language is English. If you are not fluent, if you cannot read and write it, you are out of luck in making a living here. And we only need so many gardners.
No one said we shouldn't learn other languages, but we are speaking of legal and illegal immigrants here.
Its a bit of a reach to expect your new country to learn your language instead of you learning theirs, don't you think?
wow.... Exactly.... So why don't WE speak Spanish? ... Our children are too good to speak a language in which almost EVERY SINGLE country south of us speaks? ... Get it? .... Obviously not.... Wow.
Our population is greater than all theirs put together (or close to it), we have more states than they have countries, so using that reasoning, they should learn English.
Secondly, no one said our children shouldn't learn other languages, Spanish among them.
And thirdly we are speaking of legal and illegal immigrants here. Are you really taking the position that Americans should learn Spanish, Polish, German or whatever language they speak to accomadate them and they have no need to learn English?
Seperate languages leads to seperate cultures in a country which invariably leads to disaster, not a good idea.
."Seperate languages leads to seperate cultures in a country which invariably leads to disaster, not a good idea."
You have just described exactly what we now have in this nation, separatism. The nation is divided by many factors and into many factions. Chruchill once wrote that Britain and the USA were two nations divided by a common language.
If we are, as most of us think, the leading nation , the one every other nation should turn to and follow, then perhaps we might deign to learn the language of those who we expect to follow us?
Besides we have gotten far afield here. I thought we were discussing the relative merits of helping those in our schools for whom English is yet a foreign tongue.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"Besides we have gotten far afield here. I thought we were discussing the relative merits of helping those in our schools for whom English is yet a foreign tongue."
Absolutely!
At least thats my concern. Our non-English speakers are being ill served, at least in my state. Not only is bi-lingual holding them back, but we only have bi-lingual in Spanish. The rest of the immigrants and illegals are thrown in with the regular classes. We don't have English immersion for them. That really hurts them.
I've noticed that the racist groups like LaRaza have no concern for anyone but the Latinos, but I guess thats to be expected. No one even mentions the others.
.One should keep in mind that, in a single generation, we will have plain vanilla Americans from the offspring of immigrants, illegal or not. This is how its always been here.
Of course La Raza, and so many other groups, focus in on problems affected themselves personally. To say that seeking justice and fairness means lack of concern for others is really quite silly and wrong, Thomas. Any successes such groups win benefit all of us.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Of course La Raza, and so many other groups, focus in on problems affected themselves personally. To say that seeking justice and fairness means lack of concern for others is really quite silly and wrong,
Thats not what they seek at all. Theuy are simply tools of business at this point. This has nothing to do with race in the end, its strictly economics.
The only racial worry I have in this is that these vanilla Americans won't be Americans at all. But a seperate culture whaih will undoubtedly destroy our country.
Thomas:answering because it's important practise. Only have a minute. When I say "straw dog", I mean it's not that big of a problem compared with other problems in schools. You didn't answer two questions (only one may have been directly to you):what's your idea of progressive education,specifically what do you mean and what's bad? The real problem is why the school systems are FAILING and BLAMING THE VICTIMS, the kids. That issue is not being addressed, while the "straw dog", social promotion is. Another Republican trick of "look over there" while ignoring the here. The schools that produce good results have:money for small classes, good environment, books, art/music,etc. It's not rocket science. Poor kids get screwed in re institutionalized racism and short change the poor. Kids who are told they are valuable respond well to learning.
"what's your idea of progressive education,specifically what do you mean and what's bad?"
I'll have to work on that, too involved for a short answer.
Social promotion is a problem, don't give a darn what Right Wingers are doing, it hurts the kids that its done to. I did not mean to indicate its a large problem though.
By the same token many progressives use the same tactic here and there. I know, no specifics, but I'll get it.
"The schools that produce good results have:money for small classes, good environment, books, art/music,etc. It's not rocket science."
There are some schools that don't have enough money, but most do. More than enough. Its how they spend it. Top heavy with "staff" My town has 11,000 people. We have a superintendent, an asst. superintendent, 3 curriculum directors....THREE!
I don't find any instituionalized racism in our schools here. Race has little to do with funding under our school funding system. Our problem is getting the kids there, keeping them there and trying to provide a classroom atmosphere that is not chaotic. The last, the biggest challange in poor districts. The kids that try are apparently targeted by the others as "selling out" or trying to be "white" Its a real problem.
"Kids who are told they are valuable respond well to learning."
That is so true. But its not enough to just praise them. We had a "progressive" theory used here that if you make everyone equal everyone will do well, everyone got the same grade. Everyone was promoted, everyone was rewarded. It was a disaster as you can imagine. Sometimes I despair at the lack of common sense.
This is such an involved question and I hope I made it clear that the kids aren't at fault in any way. Kids will get away with anything they can, thats why adults have to demand they get an education. And that its not just some progressive theories I blame.....there is plenty wrong on the other side of the blanket. Plenty. We lost control of the schoolrooms under the Republicans.
I agree with a lot your posting. Yet, I am wondering, if we are trying to assign blame or seek a cause (which, if you want to truly tackle a problem needs to be addressed/recognized), when we are going to examine the parents of these failing children.
Why, why, why are we not, as a country talking about Who is raising the next generations?
If your parents don't value education and repsonsiblity-- how are you going to get those students of those parents to value it?
If underfunded schools are an issue (and they are) where are the hundreds of thousands of parents advocating for education funding reform??
I don't have children. I don't want children. But I know how important learning, reading, writing, critical thinking, social skills and a conception of responsiblity are.... I know this. Why don't so many parents (you know, the ones who are MAKING all of these children)? Where are they?
Yes, schools need excellent, dedicated and talented teachers/principals/administrators .... But children need good parents to teach all of the foundational skills that allow children to absorb knowledge. ...And if you expect teachers to teach AND raise children ... You might want to pay them a little more...
I tried to edit above to say at least I was speaking of that and for Texas and the border states.
"Why don't so many parents (you know, the ones who are MAKING all of these children)? Where are they?"
Here in Texas, most of the kids we have in bi-lingual....their parents are illegal. They mostly don't speak English and they are afraid to come to meetings for fear of deportation, even though they are assured that won't happen at school.
Good input. However, is it your assumption that it is the 'illegal' immigrant population that is driving down test scores and making schools places in which learing is a virtual impossibility?
While I know that is certainly a factor, parental involvement (or lack thereof) is not limited to the latino populations of the U.S.
What about the other 49 states?
Absolutely. Parental responsibility (the lack of) is a vital factor.
My sister in law teaches in Arkansas and she can hardly get parents to show up for parent teacher conhferences. Or to respond to discipline issues.
"is it your assumption that it is the 'illegal' immigrant population that is driving down test scores and making schools places in which learing is a virtual impossibility?"
In Texas, they make a great contribution to the problem, gangs are becoming a real problem, but they are certainly not the only reason. We've got plenty of American children that are as big a problem. They do burn a lot of money too. A lot.
Remember, I was speaking of the immigrant populations though, specifically in Texas. They are a far, far larger problem for us than say Wisconsin. But it could get much worse in other states. The expense is staggering.
Hi Thomas and NYCartist - regarding bi-lingual. I think it is a great idea to teach languages young; people who know two or more languages properly are more sophisticated and versatile. Knowing two languages is good for the brain. One of my sons went to an experimental public school bi-lingual program (he was in the gringo component) that worked very well for him. The problem is tacky bi-lingual programs that teach neither English nor another language well.
The so called "Madrassa" (Arabic for school) was a theme school around a bi-lingual program for Arabic. I supported this idea for two reasons: First there are many Arabic speaking immigrants here from Lebanon, Pakistan, Egypt etc. By the way, it has nothing to do with the Muslim religion; a substantial minority of Arabic speaking immigrants are Christian, and even a few Jews. One of my friends attended a Protestant Madrassa in Beirut before coming here.
Secondly, we are so engaged in the Arabic world that we could improve our relations if more of our citizens spoke Arabic. The reasons are similar to why I would support having a public school with a Chinese language theme.
I do agree that social promotion has been a problem. I taught chemistry and other science in the chaotic public school system for two years. Most of my students were poor readers and could not do fourth grade math (percentages, graph reading for instance). It was irresponsible to place these students in a chem or physics class and ask them to pass a NYS Regents exam. Few did.
A chemistry readiness test could have been used as a diagnostic to uncover the learning gaps before the class and require a pre-chem prep course in the summer for instance. Or, as I vainly proposed, give the students three semesters instead of two to complete the course with built in math refreshers along the way.
I guess you will ask, Thomas, how the students spent the 6 years between 4th grade and 10th grade without anyone addressing the gaps. This is a very good question that requires thoughtful solutions not provided by blanket testing and leaving students back.
Targeted tests combined with program enrichments, adjustments and remediation make some sense. So now I will shout my testing mantra:
TESTING IS AN EVALUATION OF A PROGRAM. IT IS NOT A PROGRAM.
Wishing you light, music and cheer this holiday season.
Joe
"TESTING IS AN EVALUATION OF A PROGRAM. IT IS NOT A PROGRAM."
And a great mantra it is! Because its the truth.
Great post that I totally agree with. And yes I would have asked that, but you even took care of that.
Actually the only criticism I had of the Madrassa school was the religious content while denying the same to Christians in the other schools.
.I am rather confused by this ,Thomas, perhaps you might expand on or define what it is you are criticizing here. Our current emphasis in education is the "No Child Left Undamaged" policies of this current administration, hardly defined as "progressive". The emphasis on useless testing is not to be laid at the feet of progressive educators when it is those who advance the current system and also favor the outsourcing to private schools ( read vouchers) who advocate all those tests.
Bilingual education is necessary when English is not ones primary language, and, in fact, outside of the USA most children are rather well versed in multiple languages rather early in the education process. Just how bilingual education suppresses our Latino kids rather than assisting them is a mystery to me.
The rote learning to which you refer with apparent favor is the learning of answers to tests, hardly a practice one might call education,in my own opinion. Real education teaches children to think for themselves, anathema to those who seek to churn out fast food workers and obedient little dummies.
If you can point to a time in which progressive educatory theories were dominant, in which progressives held high posts and made the decisions I would be enlightened.
edit for clarity:
This post was being created when NYCa slipped in with her very excellent commentary.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee:hi. How'd yours get above mine? And so clear,too. Tsk tsk. Are we piling on poor Thomas? I sure wish I'd had a progressive education way back when. Had to do it mostly on my own, as do so many kids. Probably why Howard Zinn is such a hero to students (and me). Have you read, "You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train", Howard Zinn, Boston:Beacon Press, 2003 edition? It's his memoir, to me autobio. It's my favorite book. Even the intro is fabulous. I only saw a bit of the video of it online.
.My early education was a nightmare. Riding the early side of the boomer generation I was subject to "new" theories each and every year. The teacher would say, first day of class, now children, forget what we taught you last year and learn this new way....Each and every year!
For a time I simply gave up, but education is like heroin, habit forming as heck.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee:surprised I got this far down the page this morning. Soon DemocracyNow,exit for me for awhile. Where'd you go to school? When? Public? For me, it's the love of learning. I did have 33 grad credits before I made the break to art. I went to elementary school in the 1940s, NYC. Public school. Eric Foner says in a speech (heard on WBAI www.wbai.org in the last decade)(with luck, it might be in Pacifica Radio Archives, a treasure trove of audio). Foner is a history prof. at Columbia. (His uncle Philip Foner was one of my favorite writers; my dinky teachers college, had a good library and I found P. Foner's book on Mark Twain's economic policies in his novels, on a shelf in the late 1950s for an open book exam.). I apologize for runon: Eric Foner said kids who went to public school in NYC in the 1940s were taught democracy. I'm one of those. It stuck.
Which reminds me:I heard DemocracyNow interviews with Bill Ayers. I was "turned off" by his education jargon. I think Bernadine Dohrn was great. She didn't get to say a lot, but put "disabled" right up in the top of her list of people. I do like lawyers.
."First we kill all the lawyers." Hey don't blame me, that's Shakespeare!
I was six in 1948, went to PS 105 in the Bronx, moved to Queens in 1953 and went to PS 172 and High School at Martin Van Buren.....a Public School guy for sure!
Bernie Dorhn IS great, I once had a little crush on her...long, long ago and far ,far away...but that's another story.Bill teaches education and has a bit of a rep as a solid educator, he was, and may very well still be, a born leader and a fine intellect. But I don't care for him if only because he got the girl!
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Bernie Dorhn IS great, I once had a little crush on her...
But I don't care for him if only because he got the girl!
AH-HA!!!!!!
LOL - there was a lot of that.
Joe
"progressive educatory theories were dominant, in which progressives held high posts and made the decisions I would be enlightened."
Progressives have been in control of educational theories and teacher training since the seventies. How many conservatives will you find on an educational faculty that trains teachers? 1 in the whole school if they are lucky. I didn't think this was any secret.
Now in control of the money or the ability to jettison absurd policies like NCLB and the others you are familiar with, or having Federal control of the framework....Nada!
"Real education teaches children to think for themselves"
Absolutely. And we have little of that going on here. The Socratic method of question and answer has proven to be the best method, class participation, etc. Its impossible to achieve in our present classroom situations in a lot of schools.
"outside of the USA most children are rather well versed in multiple languages rather early in the education process"
Correct. And these children have already mastered their own language and it is English almost exclusively that they learn next.
Correct.
As to Private schools, there are some good ones. The problem is that a sucessful private school can seldom be duplicated, so you have a few excellent schools and a lot of mediocrity. Vouchers and Private schools are just a way to have the public pay for your childs private education. How many Latinos or poor whites that need it the most are going to gain entry to those elite schools? I'm sure your figure will match my guess.
As to rote learning, what I speak of is the framework to hang the rest of your education on. Being able to multiply without a calculator, knowing somethiong is wrong with a sentence or knowing that the American Civil War did not take place in the 20th century, that America was not founded in the 1800's and who George Washington was.
"Just how bilingual education suppresses our Latino kids rather than assisting them is a mystery to me."
See above, but it slows down the learning of English which in turn slows the ability to progress to higher grades. There are always a few exceptions of course, but over 95% of the rest have to contend with this.
And business is delighted to have an uneducated core of workers to draw from. I believe your Latino dropout rate is higher than ours?
Now remember, when you start thowing those bolders, NYCartist says you two shouldn't bloody me too much.
The only concern to me are these kids, all of them, not just the disadvantaged, not just the smart ones.
>>See above, but it slows down the learning of English which in turn slows the ability to progress to higher grades. There are always a few exceptions of course, but over 95% of the rest have to contend with this.
I do not believe this is the case. Studies have shown that a bilingual education can in fact help SPEED learning in other areas. The learning capacity of a developing brain does not slow down because one is learning two different languages.
I am going to suggest that an English speaking student in Britain that learns latin and a Russian speaking Student In Russia that learns latin will tend to have a better rounded education at the age of 20 then an American Student who has learned only English.
Learning various languages helps discipline the mind and understanding the different nuances in each language is a learning experience all in its own that helps with critical thinking.
You are actually correct. But in the exception rather than the rule. And we have to address the average student here.
"Studies have shown that a bilingual education can in fact help SPEED learning in other areas. The learning capacity of a developing brain does not slow down because one is learning two different languages."
This was one of the arguments used for bi-lingual and its true. What says is that it "can" speed learning in other areas, what they don't say is that it usually doesn't. (and let me say again I'm speaking of Texas and the other border states. These I know about. NYC, Canada or other places may be quite different) And its not that the learning is slowed down initially (the studies you are looking at I'm sure are from the primary grades) but have a real impact as the students fall behind in English.
Exceptionasl students benefit from bi-lingual, average students have not. And we must take care of everyone, not just the best.
"I am going to suggest that an English speaking student in Britain that learns latin and a Russian speaking Student In Russia that learns latin will tend to have a better rounded education at the age of 20 then an American Student who has learned only English."
I don't doubt that for a moment. One of the weakness's of our system is a lack of second language teaching. But I am speaking of immigrants coming here that are not English proficient or don't speak English at all.
"Learning various languages helps discipline the mind and understanding the different nuances in each language is a learning experience all in its own that helps with critical thinking."
I totally agree.
.Thomas, When have I ever thrown boulders at you? Of course some truths may seem massive as they approach the learning centers of your brain.......
Where in heck to begin, I get the notion that much of your opinions about education and those who control it come from rather right wing sources ( tinges of schools being bastions of liberalism and all that).
"Progressives have been in control of educational theories and teacher training since the seventies. How many conservatives will you find on an educational faculty that trains teachers? 1 in the whole school if they are lucky. I didn't think this was any secret."
This sounds as if it comes, in its entirety, from a Rush Limbaugh rant. While the faculty of many colleges have their fair share of liberal thinkers ( the really well educated tend to be such :-)) those with the decision making power , the bureaucrats, are usually far from liberals.
"Correct. And these children have already mastered their own language and it is English almost exclusively that they learn next.
Correct. "
The whole point of bilingual education is that those children who need it come from homes in which English is not spoken. Thus, if the lesson is exclusively in that language they are disadvantaged and not learning squat.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"Of course some truths may seem massive as they approach the learning centers of your brain......."
That was dandy! I'm still laughing. In fact I'm still laughing.
"This sounds as if it comes, in its entirety, from a Rush Limbaugh rant."
Horrible thing to say, Limbaugh, ugh couldn't you have just compared me to bat guano. Actually we got it from a survey of Teaching universities. Its simply a fact.
Let me say that right wingers are sometimes right. I never think liberals or progressives are always right, just that right wingers seldom are. But sometimes they are.
While the faculty of many colleges have their fair share of liberal thinkers ( the really well educated tend to be such :-))
Loved that one! Remember the faculty selects itself. So big surprise!
"The whole point of bilingual education is that those children who need it come from homes in which English is not spoken. Thus, if the lesson is exclusively in that language they are disadvantaged and not learning squat."
Right, that is the whole point. Bi-lingual has proven not to be as effective as English immersion. And till they leaern English, they aren't going to succeeed.
We are also facing another problem. Our state Constuitution forbids running a deficit. We don't. But with the current economic problems we are facing a shortfall in funding. The right wing is pushing to keep illegals out of the schools as it costs about two billion a year. Have ya'll solved this problem? If so how?
And completely off point but you may be the only person that I know that will give an honest guess.... Back in the day, with all the reasons the Viet Nam war ended, what percentage do you think could be attributed to the anti-war left? Being involved start to finish (except for that paid vacation with the 101 and even then I think) I'd trust your guess better than mine. Thanks.
P.S. Please no more Limbaugh comparisons, it gives me gas.
Thomas:you're wrong about effectiveness about bilingual education, certainly effective in NYC.
Remember, I said I could only speak for Texas and the border states...not including California which I don't know enough about.
.You should get a passport and visit California!
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
My "Eagle" head friend assures me that the Republic of California wouldn't honor a passport from a foreign country. But I told him I knew someone at the "embassy"
I promoted you.
.How do you know that wasn't a DEMOTION?
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
How do you know that wasn't a DEMOTION?
Sometimes I speak without thinking. I know that will shock you, but its true.
.I would repeat only that those who make the decisions,those in charge of our school systems et al are usually not liberals. A darn shame too!
Thomas asks:
"Back in the day, with all the reasons the Viet Nam war ended, what percentage do you think could be attributed to the anti-war left? Being involved start to finish (except for that paid vacation with the 101 and even then I think) I'd trust your guess better than mine. Thanks."
I would very much like to think that the massive demonstrations and increasing violence at home played a part in ending that horrid war, mainly because I was rather involved in them myself.....OK ego aside I will give you my honest answer , but I doubt you'lle like it much. That war ended because we got the shit kicked out of us. OK we killed millions and lost 56,000, but we would have had to kill every one of them in order to "win". Just as we see in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and might very well see in Pakistan shortly all the military might in the world, all the weaponry, all the puppets we install, all the billions we squander are futile expenditures. You simply cannot beat a dedicated people on their own turf. To this day I have great admiration for those people, loved the food, really loved the women , hated what we did to them and the bad dreams followed me for decades.
That should teach you to ask me a question!
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"but I doubt you'lle like it much"
I pretty much feel the same way, so I don't know why you would think I wouldn't liker it. Its pretty much the truth. I just love it when someone says "we won every battle"......What a hoot. We did............but that doesn't mean we don't know what an ass kicking felt like.(for me the bad dreams are still there)
I meant specifically a percentage figure though. 40%, 50%, 60%? Just your best guess.
.Honestly, it depends ( me waffle much?)
On the one hand our govt doesn't much listen to us, even a hundred thousand in the streets, so the demonstrations, in and of themselves, maybe a smallish share of the wars end. But the apparent loss of control of the masses as more and more took to the streets, well add it all up and maybe 15-20% I think that the real reason we left , 80% of the reason maybe, is that we were simply beaten.
Now it may be likely that the smallish percentage I gave to the anti war effort is far to pessimistic a number, colored as it certainly is by the increasing distancing of my government from the wishes of the people.
P.S. Sorry for the "not liking it" phrasing but one gets pretty used to that reaction from so many folks.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Thanks. I was discussing this with one of my "Eagle" head friends...just past Atilla and I gave it about 30-35% at least, so with your guess I feel better. I didn't want to underestimate, but I believe you have. I'll say about 35% then. I think thats a fair number.
That pressure was invaluable. Remember without that pressure, Nixon could have dragged it out more. Thanks very much for helping me out.
"P.S. Sorry for the "not liking it" phrasing but one gets pretty used to that reaction from so many folks."
And as you well know 98% of them weren't there, especially the "hawks" with nothing to lose.
.It does amaze me that the most vocal advocates for war have never fought one or seen its aftermath. Most of my remaining unit abhor the thought of war.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin