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Israel Seizes Gaza Aid Boat
An aid ship carrying eight Jewish activists from Europe, Israel, and the US was apprehended by the Israeli navy just miles off the coast of Gaza after being warned by a warship.
Israeli left-wing activists stand outside a police station in Ashdod, southern Israel, Tuesday, Sept. 28, 2010. An aid ship carrying eight Jewish activists from Europe, Israel, and the US was apprehended by the Israeli navy just miles off the coast of Gaza after being warned by a warship. (AP Photos/Dan Balilty) Navy commandos boarded the Irene, and then the passengers were led off the boat.
Rich Cooper, an organiser with Independent Jewish Voices, told Al Jazeera that his group is now demanding the immediate release of the activists.
The ship had left the port of Famagusta in Turkish-held northern Cyprus on Sunday afternoon.
The Israeli army had said it would offer to transfer the ship's aid supplies to the port of Ashdod and then ask the crew to turn back.
Ehud Barak, Israel's defence minister, had repeatedly warned that Israel will intercept any ship nearing Gaza, which is governed by the Palestinian group Hamas.
"In the tradition of the civil rights movement ... we assert our right to continue to Gaza under international law," Glyn Secker, the Irene's captain, told Al Jazeera on Monday.
Jewish gesture
The 10-metre catamaran was tiny in comparison with the six-ship May 31 aid convoy that contained 10,000 tonnes of aid and over 700 activists.
But the voyage was a gesture by left-leaning European Jewish groups to highlight what they see as a flawed Israeli policy of collective punishment against 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.
Yousef Rizka, a Hamas official, said: "The government has received Jewish activists heading to Gaza before. The government positively views all attempts to break the siege on Gaza".
Israel eased its naval blockade following harsh international condemnation for storming the Mavi Marmara. The nine deaths aboard the Freedom Flotilla were a public-relations disaster for Israel.
Since then, groups from Iran, Ireland, Lebanon, and Libya, among others, have been trying to reach Gaza - with varying degrees of success.
Groups represented on board the Irene included the UK-based Jews for Justice for Palestinians and the German Jewish Voice organisation.
"The boat's cargo includes symbolic aid in the form of children's toys and musical instruments, textbooks, fishing nets for Gaza's fishing communities and prosthetic limbs," read a statement from European Jews for a Just Peace movement, the activist network that co-ordinated the voyage.
"We stand in the proud Jewish tradition of justice, of championing the rights of the downtrodden, of implacable opposition to prejudice and racism."
Kate Katzenstein-Leiterer, a leader of the German Jewish Voice, was quoted in June as saying, "We want Israel to behave in a way that it can be recognised as a democratic state. Now it is recognised as a criminal state. That is not what we want."
'One future'
Reuven Moskovitz, an 82-year-old Holocaust survivor among the passengers on the British-flagged vessel, is a founding member of the Jewish-Arab village Neve Shalom (Oasis of Peace).
"We are two peoples, but we have one future," Moskovitz said in a statement on the Jewish Boat to Gaza website.
Another passenger was Rami Elhanan, an Israeli whose daughter died in a 1997 suicide bombing at a Jerusalem shopping centre.
Eli Osherov, a reporter from Channel 10 in Israel, was also on board.
Andy David, Israel's foreign ministry spokesman, described the voyage as "a provocative joke that isn't funny".
Secker, the Irene's captain, told Al Jazeera Monday that the organisers had "a particular point to make, as the voice of Jews who have an alternative opinion to that of the Israeli establishment".
Source: Al Jazeera and Agencies
- Posted in
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68 Comments so far
Show AllThis outcome was predictable.
I noted the other day while making such a prediction that "It pains me to express this, but I'm not sure that single ships, few and far between, will have a cumulative impact on the status quo.
I still root for them on principle, though."
I do see that this courageous endeavor seeks to expose the malevolent monstrosity of Israeli government policy and conduct to the world, in hopes of raising the consciousness and conscience of the world-- and especially to demonstrate that, as Captain Secker stated, there are Jews who do not share and support Israel's terrorist rogue-state ideology and methods.
I hope against hope that such tactics prove effective.
It's refreshing to see Jewish People in opposition to the Zionist monolith that is Israel. It restores my faith in Jewish morality.
Being one of Jewish people who is in opposition to zionism, i am pleased to be of refreshement!
If American Jews are as stupid as the average American, then the answer is: very few.
How many Americans even know what the First Amendment to the Constitution is? The Second? ANY of them? I bet maybe 1 in 10. How many Americans can explain what Obama's "healthcare reform" legislation really does? How many Americans can define "Habeas Corpus?"
The answer to all of these is, again, perhaps 1 in 10, if that.
I wouldn't hold out any hope that American Jews are aware of the difference between Judaism and Zionism, or that Zionism ("whatever that is") rules Israel.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross."
WELL said :)
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross."
Sinclair Lewis, "It Cant Happen Here", 1935
¿One in ten you think? I believe that is way hopeful...maybe one in a hundred I feel is a better figure.
I think it really depends. I don't think most anyone separates judaism from zionism. I don't think that most american jews make that distinction.
But, it should be realized that most americans are clueless about most things. Do most americans separate 'freedom' from 'capitalism'?
American jews get their information from the same msm sources as everyone else does.
I am of Jewish heritage but have more and more begun to understand the
inherent evil of zionism and state zionism in particular. (Incidently
Israel and its US support have encouraged me).
There are many points in the conflict, in international law and so forth
see elsewhere.
For reference read: 1) THE WORLD IN CRISIS by Gabriel Kolko, chapter on
Israel and 2)THE AUSTRIAN MIND (Herzl was from Hungary then a part of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire), pp.357 ff and conclusion.
I have joined the international anti-zionism network.
You are not alone by any means.
Some of you might be interested in getting CD articles on your Kindle eReader.
Download CD articles for your Kindle ...
http://w-3productions.com/Kindle_CD/?C=M;O=D
Today, the Israeli court okayed the eviction of more Palestinians from their East Jerusalem property.
Yesterday Israel shot and critically wounded a Gazan when a group of Gazans held a non-violent rally in Gaza in the so-called Buffer Zone, a zone in which Israel snipers regularly and illegally shoots demonstrators and farmers that enter or approach the zone.
Last week, a Gazan fisherman was shot and killed by Israel, a West Bank Palestinian by an Israeli security guard, and a baby was died due to Israeli teargas. Two weeks ago, Israel tanks fired upon and killed 3 Gazan farmworkers that were working near the buffer zone. One was 91 years old.
M$M is virtually silent to stories of Palestinian deaths. Thankfully, we have these aid ships and an aid convoy crossing Europe and in Turkey right now that bring some attention to the plight of the Palestinians.
http://palsolidarity.org/
Thanks for the link Progressive101. It shows how the MSM is covering-up the crimes of the Israeli thugs,
Boycott Israel!
Israel's bar code ID is 729 (Link attached explaining the system and listing the bar codes) When you look at the product's bar code and see the first three numbers to be 729, just put it back on the shelf, it is Israeli.
http://www.adams1.com/upccode.html
If enough people would take the time to look and act, at least part of the problem would be solved.
Thank you for this relatively convenient way to tell origin :)
"The nine deaths aboard the Freedom Flotilla were a public-relations disaster for Israel."
I see, not a moral failure, not a heinous crime but a PR failure. So glad we got that cleared up because here I was thinking it was something else entirely.
I see Israeli-centric New York Times labels these good people "ACTIVISTS" in their coverage.
Done on purpose I'm sure to paint these poeple as fanatics!!!
Just think if the Times lead with something like: "Jewish Humanitarian Aid Workers Stopped by the IDF from delivering much needed supplies to the impoverished people of Gaza."
Yeah, I know....I'm dreaming.
"Activists" is not a negative word.
If that is all you can raise against the NYT coverage, the NYT must truly be an anti Israel publication!
No, you're not dreaming. Just imagining.
Oh. Should they take their Western Wall with them?
You mean the one they built like 4000 years ago after they took the land under it during the genocide of the Canaanites (from whom Palestinians traditionally trace their ancestry)?
Jews for Justice for Palestinians has a number of distinguished British Jews amongs its membership, including Marion Kozak, mother of Ed Miliband, who has just been elected leader of the Labour Party in the UK.
Israelis are the new nazi terrorists.
"They learned well from the Dark Side, Luke."
No summary executions on the high seas, no theft of laptops and credit cards. Wonder why? Oh! wait... fellow members of the privileged tribe.
I guess a prosthetic limb could be viewed as a weapon if you hit a Zionist over the head with it really hard.
Could this attempt to "break a siege" be just another cheap distraction from the real issues?
Courage in the face of oppression, even to perform futile actions, is something we should all applaud and join, if we dare. It is important for Israelis and for Jewish people in the USA to know that there are Jewish people, even Holocaust survivors, who oppose Israeli militarism and apartheid policies. The Holocaust calls us to say "Never again", but it clearly is happening again, in Gaza and the West Bank.
from Israeli newspaper haaretz.com:
Published 21:56 28.09.10
Jewish Gaza-bound activists: IDF used excessive force in naval raid
Activists on board Gaza-bound ship 'Irene' counter IDF version that the vessel was taken over in a peaceful manner.
By Yanir Yagna
Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Holocaust
Israel Defense Forces soldiers used excessive force while taking over a Gaza-bound aid ship organized by Jewish and Israeli activists, flotilla participants said Tuesday, countering the military's official version claiming that the takeover had been uneventful.
Earlier Tuesday the IDF reported that Israeli naval commandos peacefully boarded the Jewish aid boat attempting to break a naval blockade on Gaza, saying "IDF naval forces recently boarded the yacht 'Irene', and it is currently being led to the Ashdod seaport along with its passengers."
However, testimonies by passengers who were released from police questioning later in the day seemed to counter the IDF's claims, with Israeli activist and former Israel Air Force pilot Yonatan Shapira saying that there were "no words to describe what we went through during the takeover."
Shapira said the activists, who he claimed were not violent in any way, were met with extreme IDF brutality, adding that the soldiers "just jumped us, and hit us. I was hit by a taser gun."
"Some of the soldiers treated us atrociously," Shapira said, adding that he felt there was a "huge gap between what the IDF spokesman is saying happened and what really happened.
The former IAF pilot said he and his fellow activists were "proud of the flotilla," saying it was organized "for the sake of a statement – that the siege on Gaza is a crime, that it's immoral, un-Jewish, and we have a moral obligation to speak out. Anyone who stays silent as this crime is being committed is an accessory to a crime."
Eli Usharov, A reported for Israel's Channel 10 affirmed Shapira's version of the events, telling Haaretz that the takeover was executed with unnecessary brutality.
"They used a taser gun against Yonatan. He screamed and was dragged to the military boat," Usharov said, adding that both Yonatan and his brother Itamar were handcuffed.
The Channel 10 also said that the activists managed to have a serious heart-to-heart conversation with the troops once they were all placed on board the military vessel, and that "overall the atmosphere was good."
Reuben Moscowitz, a Holocaust survivor who took part in the flotilla, expressed his disbelief that "Israeli soldiers would treat nine Jews this way. They just hit people."
"I as a Holocaust survivor cannot live with the fact that the State of Israel is imprisoning an entire people behind fences," Moscowitz said, adding that "it's just immoral."
"What happened to me in the Holocaust wakes me up every night and I hope we don't do the same thing to our neighbors," Moscowitz said, adding that he was comparing "what I went through during the Holocaust to what the besieged Palestinian children are going through."
Of course the IDF used excessive force.
They are the IDF: "the most moral army on earth".
They can get away with anything, as long as their Big Brother, the U.S., continues to support them no matter what they do.
After all, isn't the U.S. the "exceptional" nation on earth and the shining "city on the hill"?
And aren't we all so glad our tax dollars go to support illegal occupations, drone bombings, nuclear weapons, overthrowing governments, assassinations, raping of the planet, and other such "free market" capitalist policies?
The Zionist have been determind to occupy all Arab land since 1968 or before, and eliminate as many as possible. Bush set out to occupy all the oil under the land, and Obama seems to be following, , and the reason the US won't step in against the Jews, they both are useing the same tactics. Fascism is right around the corner, with the Tea Party in front. I heard as many others probably have, it doesn't matter if Palin, O'Donnell, Beck says or do as long as the GOP wins. The GOP will soon find out when all is said and done, it's the Tea Party who will win. One Party, One People, One Fascist Empire.
"The Zionist have been determind to occupy all Arab land since 1968 or before, and eliminate as many as possible."
What an assertion without historic basis!
Israel is a tiny country with a small population surrounded by Arab lands many, many times its size and population. Its muslim neighbours breathe death threats and annihilation at every opportunity. The Palestinians have shown their intent behind those threats by launching up to 10,000 missiles into Israel, deliberately intending to kill innocent civilians, women and children.
When did Israel ever exhibit a desire to hold more land than it needed to maintain security?
Does a country determined to "eliminate as many as possible" extend full citizenship rights to such an enemy? Does it distribute leaflets warning the civilians of the "enemy" of attacks so as to minimise civilian casualty? Who, other thasn Israel ever did such a thing?
When were the terms "excessive force" and "disproportionate response" coined? I don't recall hearing of them from any war, insurrection etc, until Israel found it necessary to defend itself from continued attacks in an undeclared war on its citizens.
Oh,dear NotBornYesterday, Hmmm.......Oh. I just thought of an example.
GAZA invasion. Oh. That notorious antisemite Goldstone was exaggerating, wasn't he?
Speaking as a Jew by birth, it is glaringly obvious that Israel's goal is to create more and more antisemitism. I personally don't appreciate it.
But i never assume the pro zionist posters are Jewish here. Christian Zionists are probably a larger percent of the population. And just wait til *their* agenda for Israel really kicks in! Perhaps it is yours?
If you read the writings of Herzl, Zionism created and fostered antisemitism from the beginning. If you read the book Holocaust Victims Accuse, you will find that they even colluded with Hitler.
"Zionism is a suicide attempt on the part of Judaism."
-- Dr. Moritz Güdemann, chief rabbi of Vienna, 1897. (Cited by Jacob A. Rubin, Partners in State Building: American Jewry and Israel; New York, 1969; p.35).
"Speaking as a Jew by birth, it is glaringly obvious that Israel's goal is to create more and more antisemitism"
Obviously you live neither in Gaza nor Israel, but I could be wrong. Please tell me if I am. Do you consider the accident of your birth gives you clearer insight? Hey, as I said before, every government has its dissidents.
Gaza:
Ah, the one single item from my post that you had a bit of a shot at answering.
Either you believe, as Prof Fred apparently does that Gazans freely voted for Hamas - an organisation that has voiced their goal of totally destroying Israel, or you believe (as I do) that Hamas rigged the elections with oversight, violence and threats of violence.
If the Gazans freely voted for Hamas, then they are guilty of condoning Israel's destruction (though I don't believe that to be the case.). Israel has repeatedly weighed the risk of civilian death against allowing their key military enemies to escape by warning of attacks with leaflets and letter-drops, because they know of Hamas' cowardly practice of (literally) hiding behind their women and children, knowing that an Israeli response that kills civilians will reap world indignation. It is inevitable that civilians will be killed in such a situation, and Israel has constantly expessed its sorrow over this. Hamas however, celebrates every civilian Israeli death with joy.
Why? From article 13 of Hamas' Charter: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."
Hamas will not negotiate directly with Israel, nor recognise it as a state. Golda Mier said, “They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don't know of a compromise.”
It is in this context that Israel has put in place a blockade to reduce Hamas' access to weaponry.
Hamas, "Pallywood" and its supporters are notorious in their ability to inflate numbers and create scenarios. For example,
(1)Hamas staged blackouts in Gaza, but according to the media Israel was withholding fuel and electricity from Gazans.
(2)the rediculously inaccurate story of Mohammad Al Dura - the child supposedly killed by Israeli fire. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsCBFhCsyY)
(3) Supposed massacre of 500 in the Jenin refugee camp in April 2002, later acknowledged by the U.N. to have never occured. The real death toll was 54, of which 38 were combatants.
(4) Dead children allegedly killed in the Gaza fighting. In reality the amateur video showed the dead children being laid out on a white sheet after they were killed by the explosion of a Hamas truck during a Sept 2005 parade.
(5) The Red Cross ambulance supposedly shot up by Israelis. ASnother Pallywood scene.
(6) IDF "preventing ambulances from doing their job". According to Mohammed Shriteh,a driver for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, they would co-ordinate with the IDF who had their photos and IDs so as not to be shot at. He said it was Hamas who were the real danger. They would hijack the ambulances.
I could go on and on with the outright dishonest antics of Pallywood and Hamas. For this reason they have lost all credibility with their accounts of supposed Israeli massacres, yet the U.N. and mainstream media are continually duped by listening unquestioningly to Hamas spokesmen.
Perhaps it is for this reason that, while the arab states are full of rhetoric in support of Hamas, none are willing to come to their aid.
Oh, and your comment re: agendas? Mere elephant-hurling.
Oh, and if you want to respond, please don't bother if its only to mention a geographical area or to hurl rhetoric. Let's talk specifics.
Considering that no international monitors that were present at the election in Gaza saw any irregularities (and there were several monitors) you show at the beginning of your response that things like EVIDENCE are irrelevant to you.
You make some unsubstantiated claims, but you seem to be under the impression that Israel has always been there. The initial act of aggression here was the forced displacement of the Palestinian population. Everything since then is a result of that act.
(Of course one could go further back to the genocide of the Canaanites that most Palestinians trace their ancestry to)
So, say I come to your house with a bunch of thugs and guns and kick you out. by your "logic" you would have no justification to try to come back and reclaim your house, right?
About time the good jews speak up. Not in my name. It is just like me. I oppose the treatment of the Palestinians. I have eyes to see whats going on. Many things about the US government I don't agree with is the silence of Israeli atrocities. Along with wars and occupying other countries. I condemn the actions of corrupt and badly informed policy makers. We the people want peace. We know that peace will improve our lives. We are tired of being told who to hate and who to kill. In the end everybody is a victim. This is public opinion which policymakers ignore to the detriment of society. The state of Israel lost legitimacy by practising genocide against the Palestinians. In history that means that Israels existence is a lost cause. It does not have the moral foundation for victory. When Israel lost its moral compass it lost its future. God loves the Palestinians just as much as he loves everybody else. To deny this reality is surely moral blindness.
It amazes me what short memories people have. Current Israeli policy towards the Hamas government is predicated upon decades of violent actions by that government and its predecessor, the PLO. Israel abided by repeated "agreements" designed to establish peaceful coexistance between Israel and the Palestinians. It has always been the Palestinians who violated these agreements, not Israel. It has been the Palestinians who sent suicide bombers into civilian neighborhoods, not Israel. It has been the Palestinians who urge the wider Arab world to maintain Holy War against Israel. It has been the Palestinians who have refused such a basic premise for peaceful relations as the fundamental recognition of the right of Israel to exist.
But all of that history is conveniently forgotten as the Palestinians are portrayed as victims of Israeli thuggery. Last year we had a tragedy here in California when a teenager was attacked and mauled to death by a tiger that leaped out of its enclosure. At first the teenager was portrayed as an innocent victim. But it emerged that, in fact, the teenager and his friends had been taunting the tiger and throwing stones at it.
The "truth" of a situation depends on more than a description of the last incident in a chain of events.
The Palestinians freely elected Hamas, which is a terrorist organization committed to violence against civilians, as its duly empowered government. Hamas instigates repated attacks upon Israeli territory and Israeli citizens. Then the Palestinians and their short-sighted apologists wail and weep when Israeli authorities take justifiable steps to curtail terrorism.
Few Americans would consider al-Quada detainees to be victims of American thuggery. A government has an obligation to protect its citizens from terrorism. Until the Palestinian people reject Hamas and the philosophy of terrorism it embodies, and until the Palestinian people recognize that Israel has a right to exist, then the Israeli government has no alternative but to protect itself from violent attacks. To do so, it must assure that no explosives and guns and missles are tucked away amidst the "toys and musical instruments" the Arabs are shipping to Gaza.
Unfortunately, many well intentioned young people have a poor grasp on history, even the recent past. The propogandists who wish to portray Israel as a rogue state depend on that ignorance so that sympathy is drawn to the last "victim" in a long chain of events. We need to be smarter than that.
The Koran teaches that if we take "one step towards Allah, he will take two steps towards us." Peace is within the power of Palestinians if they put down their ancient hatred and take one step towards their neighbor.
Perhaps Americans deserve much of the suffering they are currently enduring for being so apathetic and gullible.
But Palestinians have done nothing to deserve the ethnic cleansing and mass murder you are advocating. Your post is both cynical and vicious, with the blatantly obvious objective of causing many more innocent Palestinians to lose their land, if not their lives.
"But Palestinians have done nothing to deserve the ethnic cleansing and mass murder you are advocating."
I failed to pick that up in Prof fred's post. Please quote the statements to which you refer.
"Your post is both cynical and vicious"
Dto. Same again.
"with the blatantly obvious objective of causing many more innocent Palestinians to lose their land, if not their lives."
Dto. Same again.
moi to professorfred: "But Palestinians have done nothing to deserve the ethnic cleansing and mass murder you are advocating."
Not born Yesterday to moi: “I failed to pick that up in Prof fred's post. Please quote the statements to which you refer.”
Oh, you picked up on it alright. You’re obviously cynical and dishonest, but not braindead.
You and professorfred are just trolls trying to sidetrack the discussion from Zionist ethnic cleansing. I don’t think readers on this website will fall for it.
Do you always call people with a different opinion to your own, "trolls", "cynical and dishonest"?
Do you always prefer the personal shot than to answer a challenge with honesty?
You are the one that copied and pasted another contributor's blanket argument, the first point of which was the accusation that your opponents attack the individual, a later point being that they avoid the argument.
Reply if you wish, but I shall not. There is no substance to your posts.
Notborn Yesterday: “Do you always call people with a different opinion to your own, 'trolls', 'cynical and dishonest'?”
Only when they are advocating crimes against humanity. I have neither tolerance nor respect for spammed racist propaganda, whether it originates with Nazis, KKKrs, or Zionists.
Like all racist fanatics, you have no respect for the truth, and you’re oblivious to the terrible injustice and human suffering your ideology causes.
Spare us your vicious, regurgitated hype about how Palestinian aggressors are victimizing the poor Zionist ethnic cleansers.
professorfred, i think you have mixed your metaphors.
The tiger is the Palestinians. No?
Israel IS a rogue state. Tell me how it isn't, please. It thumbs its nose at the rest of the international community, including the UN. If you have the capacity, being a "professor" (self proclaimed), i would love to see a response here.
Or are you a hit and run kind of man?
Professorfred's post has been the first I have found in this anti-Israeli publication that tells at least part of Israel's story. It is a warm and refreshing change.
This publication, and its readership is testimony to the blind, even supernatural hatred that exists towards a nation defending itself in the most difficult circumstances imaginable.
The western wall attests to historic Jewish ownership of the land and has survived since 70AD when the Romans (not the "Palestinians") sacked Jerusalem.
What marks have been left on the land to demonstrate any existence of a Palestinian state? When was a Palestinian state founded and by whom? What were its language? Its borders? Its currency? Its capital? When and why did the country of Palestine "die"?
Prior to Arafat, who were its leaders?
Before the defeat of the invading arab states during the "six day war" in 1967, what attempts for independance were made for "Palestine"?
If the "Palestinians" would recognise Israel's right to exist as a nation in their historic land, cease their viscious hosilities and determine to live among the Israelis as peaceful citizens (as indeed many already do), there would be no need for the so-called "apartheid" fence, no need for a blockade of Gaza, no need for the growing hatred against Israel and no need for world attention to be focused on the M.E.
Sure, Israel is far from perfect. It has engaged in "unjewish" behaviour. Although outwardly jewish, it is largely a secular and atheistic nation. Nevertheless its survival and success as a nation is indeed a miracle - and the first nation ever to be regrouped into its own land after centuries of dispersion around the world.
However, I don't beleive any nation has ever existed that has gone so far to tolerate aggression and assimilate the aggressors as Israel has done. It provides citizenship for peaceful citizens of its aggressors, and unlike its enemies freedom of the press and its people to speak openly against its policies and actions. Which other nation would not have declared outright war against an aggressor that continually sent suicide bombers and up to 10,000 rockets into its land with the deliberate intent of killing and maiming innocent civilians, women and children?
America?
Britain?
Australia?
How about Iran?
Oh, Notborn Yesterday: nations tend to make up their myths after the fact, just look at the history of the U.S.
An excellent book is THE SEVENTH MILLION by Tom Segev. Warts and all, it is a must read.
"nations tend to make up their myths after the fact"
My post was sufficiently extensive that you could have picked on at least one "myth" and actually debated it!
"An excellent book is THE SEVENTH MILLION ...".
It may well be, but books are a very personal thing and if you'd take the time to say why you are recommending it, and what its about I might consider procuring a copy (as I actually did recently as a result of another debate I engaged in).
Until then, your post is of little value, and has achieved nothing except to hint at which side of this debate you stand on, without explaining why.
Dear NotBorn Yesterday:
THE SEVENTH MILLION by Tom Segev is used as a college textbook. Prior to this class, I had little knowledge of Israel's history, as all that is covered in the U.S. press and even in lower grade texts is the Holocaust. Even in junior high, American students pretty much deal with Anne Frank. However, in college classes, one also learns about America's history too.
I think that the closeset thing to what is happening in Israel is what also happened during the rise to the presidency and the presidency of Andrew Jackson. I fold up all of my 20 dollar bills as that man's face and history are really inhumane and horrifying to me. Although, I do believe that Ben-gurion is the closest to Jackson in historical parallels and in mindset. Netanyahu is closing in fast though.
Along with Segev's book, which beguns in the early part of the 20th century, the other side of history was shown through the eyes of Palestinian writers as well. I had no idea what NABKA was until I was exposed to this information. The British certainly failed the Palestinians, and it was truly amazing that within all of 5 ninutes, Truman accepted Israel's declaration as an independent state.
The saddest part of the Segev book is the way that the Holocaust survivors were treated on arriving in Israel; in fact, it seems that it was easier to ignore them or to ask, 'Why didn't they fight?" It was as though many blamed these victims for their own deaths. This does appear to be happening again, with the way that Jewish poeple who resist the party line of the zionists are treated.
ALTNEULAND, Herzl's novel, was also read. Of course it was utopian, as many futuristic novels are, but the respect for the "other" nations and people was inherent in this book. Short stoires of personal histories of many Palestinian writers were also included, and without college courses, many would not know of their history. Many Americans haven't had this opportunity.
Another excellent read was a book of short stories, APPLES FROM THE DESERT, by Savyon Liebrecht. Much of this deals with the lack of understanding of generations removed from the Holocaust victims. Personal, vey tragic, and the realization of the harm that political conflicts cause to to all nations. and to all people.
I hope that this is helpful to you, but CD is not just a place for debate, as it often serves as a place for simple exchange of information. All of the writers listed above have different styles, but it is the power of the stories of real people on both sides of the conflicts that are valuable.
Perhaps to you, I have achieved nothing, but I don't believe that I "hint" at things. I am clearly on the side of the PEOPLE of all nations, who are not treated fairly, and that includes not just your nation, but my own too.
Iran has a fairly large Jewish population that is treated well enough that when Israel offered to pay them to move to Israel, they declined the offer. There are even Jewish Partlimentarians in Iran.
Ths simple matter is that Palestine was not a "Jewish homeland" since I believe it was 63 AD, and the people who displaced them were the Romans, not the Palestinians.
Most Palestinians traditionally trace their ancestry to the people who inhabited Palestine prior to Moses's followers committing Genocide in the Bible.
Prior to the Zionist invasion, the Jews who lived peacefully alongside the Arabs and Christians RESISTED the Zionist invasion.
The Zionists in turn KILLED the Jewish leaders in Palestine.
How can you label Palestine an "Aggressor" when the Palestinians were there LONG before the Zionists arrived?
Why, to this day, is there footage available of IDF forces physically assaulting Orthodox Rabbis? Israel is NOT a "Jewish" state, it is a Zionist state. To get the two confused is the same logical fallacy that would consider all Germans to be Nazis.
Prior to WWII, basically every Rabbi in the Jewish faith said clearly that any attempt by man to bring about a "state of Israel" would lead to pain, tears and bloodshed.
This is why, until the Zionists worked with the Nazis to have as many of the Rabbis and traditionalists in Europe slaughtered, no attempt to "reclaim Israel" had been made by the Jewish people.
WWII however left the same type of "Jews" in charge as 9-11 left "Christians" in charge in America. Reactionary, Militaristic, and Opportunistic. And it rightfully scared the hell out of the rest, and post 9-11 US shows us how easily manipulated frightened people are.
from http://jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/zionismpromotes.cfm
Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”
Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”
"Unfortunately, many well intentioned young people have a poor grasp on history, even the recent past."
I am guessing you wouldn't consider yourself young, but let us look at history.
Prior to 1948, there was NO State of Israel. There was Palestine, where Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived together peacefully.
At this time, the Zionists started coming in, and were opposed by JEWS, Muslims and Christians, because they wanted to displace people from their ancestral lands by force.
So the Zionists started by killing the JEWISH leaders.
The Zionists then started a bus bombing campaign, as well as assasinations and bombings of homes, to make the Palestinians run from what is now called "Israel" under fear of their lives.
Look into Irgun, Haganah, Etc. Zionist terrorism was responsible for driving enough Palestinians from Palestine that a "Jewish Israel" could be founded.
History does not begin in 1948.
Every instance of violence you cite comes AFTER and as a REACTION to Zionist terrorism. So, what, again was the point you were trying to make?
P.S.
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/
is a good source of this history written by a former British Intelligence agent.
Before you spout off how "young people have a poor grasp on history" it would be a good idea so as not to make such a obvious fool of yourself in the future.
Unfortunatly, we cannot afford to befriend Israel any longer. For 65 years we have nurtured her and accepted even the most outrageous acts she has committed.
It is now time to cut the umbilical chord between us. Israel has had 65 years to enjoy what she was given and to assimilate with her surrounding nations. She has had trials and tribulations, but the time has come for Israel to back off and become a peace maker instead of the problem.
This is, of course indicative of a sub-standard school-teacher who drags two fighting children apart, frees the aggressor and punishes the innocent, no questions asked.
But tell me, how do you assimilate with neighbours that continously breathe threats to "wipe you off the face of the Earth"?
How do you assimilate with neighbours that keep sending rockets across your border to kill and maim?
How do you assimilate with those who are so insanely determined in their hatred that they are willing to blow themselves up to kill as many of you as they can?
Dear Notborn Yesterday:
I absolutely agree, Mossad and the IDF should be dismantled immediately.