Obama's No Socialist. I Should Know.
It took a massive global financial crisis, a failed military adventure and a popular repudiation of the Republican Party to make my national television debut possible. After 15 years of socialist political organizing -- everything from licking envelopes and handing out leaflets to the more romantic task of speaking at street demonstrations -- I found myself in the midtown Manhattan studio of the Fox Business Network on a cold February evening. Who ever thought that being the editor of the Socialist magazine, circulation 3,000, would launch me on a cable news career?
The media whirlwind began in October with a call from a New York Times writer. He wanted a tour of the Socialist Party USA's national office. Although he was more interested in how much paper we used in our "socialist cubby hole" than in our politics, our media profile exploded. Next up, a pleasant interview by Swedish National Radio. Then Brian Moore, our 2008 presidential candidate, sparred with Stephen Colbert. Even the Wall Street Journal wanted a socialist to quote after the first bailout bill failed last fall. Traffic to our Web site multiplied, e-mail inquiries increased and meetings with potential recruits to the Socialist Party yielded more new members than ever before. Socialism -- an idea with a long history -- suddenly seemed to have a bright future in 21st-century America.
Whom did we have to thank for this moment in the spotlight? Oddly enough, Republican politicians such as Mike Huckabee and John McCain had become our most effective promoters. During his campaign, the ever-desperate McCain, his hard-charging running mate Sarah Palin and even a plumber named Joe lined up to call Barack Obama a "socialist." Last month, Huckabee even exclaimed that, "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics may be dead, but the Union of American Socialist Republics is being born."
We appreciated the newfound attention. But we also cringed as the debate took on the hysterical tone of a farcical McCarthyism. The question "Is Obama a socialist?" spread rapidly through a network of rightwing blogs, conservative television outlets and alarmist radio talk shows and quickly moved into the mainstream. "We Are All Socialists Now," declared a Newsweek cover last month. A New York Times reporter recently pinned Obama down with the question, "Are you a socialist, as some people have suggested?" The normally unflappable politician stumbled through a response so unconvincing that it required a follow-up call in which Obama claimed impeccable free market credentials.
All this speculation over whether our current president is a socialist led me into the sea of business suits, BlackBerrys and self-promoters in the studio at Fox Business News. I quickly realized that the antagonistic anchor David Asman had little interest in exploring socialist ideas on bank nationalization. For Asman, nationalization was merely a code word for socialism. Using logic borrowed from the 1964 thriller "The Manchurian Candidate," he portrayed Obama as a secret socialist, so far undercover that not even he understood that his policies were de facto socialist. I was merely a cudgel to be wielded against the president -- a physical embodiment of guilt by association.
The funny thing is, of course, that socialists know that Barack Obama is not one of us. Not only is he not a socialist, he may in fact not even be a liberal. Socialists understand him more as a hedge-fund Democrat -- one of a generation of neoliberal politicians firmly committed to free-market policies.
The first clear indication that Obama is not, in fact, a socialist, is the way his administration is avoiding structural changes to the financial system. Nationalization is simply not in the playbook of Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and his team. They favor costly, temporary measures that can easily be dismantled should the economy stabilize. Socialists support nationalization and see it as a means of creating a banking system that acts like a highly regulated public utility. The banks would then cease to be sinkholes for public funds or financial versions of casinos and would become essential to reenergizing productive sectors of the economy.
The same holds true for health care. A national health insurance system as embodied in the single-payer health plan reintroduced in legislation this year by Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), makes perfect sense to us. That bill would provide comprehensive coverage, offer a full range of choice of doctors and services and eliminate the primary cause of personal bankruptcy -- health-care bills. Obama's plan would do the opposite. By mandating that every person be insured, ObamaCare would give private health insurance companies license to systematically underinsure policyholders while cashing in on the moral currency of universal coverage. If Obama is a socialist, then on health care, he's doing a fairly good job of concealing it.
Issues of war and peace further weaken the commander in chief's socialist credentials. Obama announced that all U.S. combat brigades will be removed from Iraq by August 2010, but he still intends to leave as many as 50,000 troops in Iraq and wishes to expand the war in Afghanistan and Pakistan. A socialist foreign policy would call for the immediate removal of all troops. It would seek to follow the proposal made recently by an Afghan parliamentarian, which called for the United States to send 30,000 scholars or engineers instead of more fighting forces.
Yet the president remains "the world's best salesman of socialism," according to Republican Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina. DeMint encouraged supporters "to take to the streets to stop America's slide into socialism." Despite the fact that billions of dollars of public wealth are being transferred to private corporations, Huckabee still felt confident in proposing that "Lenin and Stalin would love" Obama's bank bailout plan.
Huckabee is clearly no socialist scholar, and I doubt that any of Obama's policies will someday appear in the annals of socialist history. The president has, however, been assigned the unenviable task of salvaging a capitalist system intent on devouring itself. The question is whether he can do so without addressing the deep inequalities that have become fundamental features of American society. So, President Obama, what I want to know is this: Can you lend legitimacy to a society in which 5 percent of the population controls 85 percent of the wealth? Can you sell a health-care reform package that will only end up enriching a private health insurance industry? Will you continue to favor military spending over infrastructure development and social services?
My guess is that the president will avoid these questions, further confirming that he is not a socialist except, perhaps, in the imaginations of an odd assortment of conservatives. Yet as the unemployment lines grow longer, the food pantries emptier and health care scarcer, socialism may be poised for a comeback in America. The doors of our "socialist cubby-hole" are open to anyone, including Obama. I encourage him to stop by for one of our monthly membership meetings. Be sure to arrive early to get a seat -- we're more popular than ever lately.
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46 Comments so far
Show AllThanks Billy Wharton for a very thought provoking article.
The current self-destruction of American capitalism certainly warrants a knee jerk reaction to the alternate system of socialism, but it would only move the nation from one “ism” to another.
Capitalism has proven to be the best system for the creative imagination, innovation, and economic growth, but it is fraught with many excesses. This though does not justify throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The only answer to the reckless greed of capitalism is a public determination for more fairness by way of more democracy.
Yes, this current financial fiasco is about the greed of capitalism, but it is also about the lack of true participatory democracy to provide for the common good and to protect the weak from the powerful. The powerful have always been able to look out for themselves. However, the U.S. does not need a heavy shift to socialism (health care being one major exception) but a change in national values
Simply put, Americans have become too materialistic, too preoccupied, too selfish and intellectually lazy to make democracy work for the common good. So the American people have allowed the greed of capitalism to rule. Thus the chickens have come home to roost.
Also the U.S. has a massive build-up of the military industrial complex that encourages unilateral confrontations, it is highly profitable and it is backed up in the public eye with unusually good paying jobs. Hopefully, lack of national funds will bring sanity to this issue.
In turn, the institutions of financial capitalism have proven to be incapable of diligent moral scrutiny in their quest for quick labor free phantom wealth, not real wealth. It must be questioned as to whether government regulation can ever curb such abuses and thus a certain degree of socialism in the financial sector may be in order.
In turn, the corporate media conglomerates can never be expected to question the oppressive rule of corporate power. It is all about increasing TV ratings with trash programs in lieu of elevating the public social consciousness. A healthy democracy requires a diligent “civic press”, but to corporate sponsors, this goes against the grain of an uncaring and unconscious consumer way of life.
In turn, a true national wisdom can only come from a healthy democracy. The world needs wisdom for the survival of the human species. However, modern technology, economic growth, and military power will never lead to wisdom. A national wisdom can only come from the spiritual dynamics of democracy that is meant to embrace opposing viewpoints and to synthesize a fair solution for the common good. It is all about the spiritual nature of humankind, the ability for personal transformation and spiritual discernment to compel a new national conversation and increasing national introspection. For humankind, this is the natural path to peace, truth and wisdom.
Americans must recognize that a materialistic consumer culture has become the enemy of spirituality and democracy itself. America has failed to recognize that democracy is as much an exercise of the human spirit as in the practice of religion, but without the threat of theocracy. But even institutional religion in the U.S. has pretty much divorced itself from spirituality in order to control the faithful and to benefit from the gospel of prosperity.
In summary, to transcend the dominate culture of capitalism, there needs to be political freedom, freedom from corporate domination and the power of wealth. Presently, the U.S. Congress is not sufficiently free to think great democratic thoughts because we the people have not demanded that the Congress be free from corporate power.
A renewed democracy is America’s challenge for the 21st Century.
First, you can thank Rush and Co. for the hype about socialism. Are you aware that people in this country are stockpiling weapons in their basements because of the fear and hate this issue has sparked?
Secondly, the people calling people and things "socialist" generally don't know the meaning of the word. It's another hate word. Same as "liberal". This is just another GOP fear campaign.
All but two of Obama's department heads are from The Council on Foreign Relations....CFR is NOT a liberal or socialist organization. Bill Clinton had 32 CFR Members in the Executive Branch....I am sure Obama has more than that.
Rush Limbaugh has an audience of 20 million people, and most of them own: factories, stores, small businesses, restaurants, and banks. He is the spokesperson for the right wing of the Republican Party......When he says, "I want Obama to fail," he is giving the order, "Let's take it all,now!" His disciples are doing just that.......They are: firing employees, establishing "Off Shore Accounts",and continuing to steal from the U.S. Treasury ......After they profitted from the illegal and immoral invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, they orchestrated the financial crisis and "Enroned" their money (Enron had over 1000 "Ghost" companies and accounts in foreign countries.).
No, President Obama is a lawyer first, a capitalist next, and "The Power Elite's tool for A New World Order" .......
Obama a socialist? We should be so fortunate. I wouldn't have voted for Kucinich in the primaries and Nader in the general election if Obama was a socialist.
The conservatives and their lower-income bracket lackeys fear socialism because they don't want the people having that collective power. The elites want to rule over all of us with their middle-class guardsmen protecting them from the wrath of a populist uprising.
I would suggest that anyone here seriously interested in learning about socialism, to read the daily World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) at www.wsws.org.
The WSWS has informed it's readers about Obama and the Democratic party for the last several years!
Here a link to the latest article on Obama from WSWS:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/mar2009/pers-m14.shtml
Obama at the Business Roundtable
14 March 2009
Tom Eley
"On Thursday, President Barack Obama spoke before the Business Roundtable, an organization of leading corporate CEOs. Obama used the opportunity to deliver a paean to American capitalism.
The speech, delivered in the midst of the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, had an air of provocation against the American people about it. Not a few of the CEOs assembled at the conference have overseen the ruination of their own corporations. Collectively, they bear responsibility for the economic collapse and the impoverishment of millions of Americans and hundreds of millions the world over.
..."
the socialists like the author should skip the obvious and concentrate on reasons no existed government so far, riding on populist agenda could take up civilization to the next level - the soviet bloc being the first case - to help; it's never the ideas but the implementation / edweg
Only an incredibly ideologically backwards country like the current USA would think that Obama is "socialist"! We need a major party that really is socialist (i.e. for the nationalization of the means of production and distribution)!
Perhaps Obama can play the role of Gorbachov as the US follows the Soviet Union into collapse. Who would have dreamt during the Cold War that both superpowers would collapse as a function of their own internal stupidity and corruption? And only 20 years apart from one another.
Obama a "socialist"?
It is to laugh.
I wish!
· Yr Obd't Servant
The U.S. government is a capitalist government
The government of the United States is a capitalist government, and all its actions—its taxation policies, its war and foreign policies, its foreign-aid programs, even its social-welfare programs—are all policies on behalf of the capitalist class, not the people. Reforms that have been achieved have never been the result of the capitalist politicians' and parties' good will. All have been the result of independent struggles by the working class and its allies. Such reforms included ending (some) child labor, the right of Black people and women to vote, civil rights, the right to form unions, and the right to free, public education.
Workers Should Own and Control Industry
Workers should own, control and manage all the basic industry of the country. These assets—energy-generating systems, mines, mills, factories, healthcare services, transportation, giant agribusiness farms, construction companies, etc.,.—should be taken from private ownership and profit-making and put to public use under the ownership and control of the working class. Then production could serve human needs instead of private profits.
We need a workers' government
The socialist program advocates that the workers control the government of the country. The first priority of a workers' government is to disarm the current military establishment, especially its nuclear arsenal, whose sole purpose is to protect capitalists’ property, and establish workers' ownership and control of all public property.
In a socialist planned economy the vast wealth and resources of the United States would immediately be put toward the social welfare of the world's working people. The resources now hoarded by the capitalist class could, if liberated, feed, clothe and shelter all the world's people.
The resources now put toward the military-industrial complex and the prison-industrial complex can be turned into vast public works for the advancement of science in the interest of human health (such as mobilizing science to cure cancer, heart disease, and AIDS), and saving the environment from the ravages wrought by the capitalist system for profit.
The prerequisite for the protection of a healthy environment is a social revolution to end capitalist production and institute socialist production—a planned economy to serve human needs.
The Obscenity of Poverty in the Midst of Plenty
There is no logical reason for homelessness, hunger, illiteracy or poverty in the United States, or, in fact, anywhere in the world today. But there is another kind of logic at work in the creation of the gross inequalities in capitalist society: the logic of the capitalist system of production for profit.
Humankind has already developed the ability, technology, and the know-how to solve all the problems of homelessness, poverty, and hunger!
The only thing that prevents these solutions from being enacted is the system of production for profit instead of human need. The capitalist system threatens human advancement. It threatens the survival of the human species. It threatens the survival of the planet earth as a hospitable environment for the human species, as well as millions of animal and plant species.
Once the capitalist system is abolished by the united actions of the working people of the world, once human society is organized around the principle of meeting human needs through human solidarity, there will be a granite-hard basis for the true flowering of humankind. Then, real human history, free of its fetters, can begin. That is our goal.
right. the trick of "gov't" for the last 200 years or so has been one thing:
convincing people there is not enough.
Looking back at US history, at the battles between labor and the "Captains of Industry," at Roosevelt's modest advances at providing for the overall welfare of the American people, and at the final (or near final) victory of Capital over labor and the environment and the national need, etc., it is sad that the term "socialism" can be so easily used as a pejorative, it is in such disrepute.
Where is our collective memory? Do modern Americans not give a whit about the 8 hour day, child labor, women's rights, safe working conditions, discrimination, collective bargaining, decent wages, or a middleclass way of life? Had the "Robber Barons" won in the nineteenth century none of these benefits would be as widespread. Had not Roosevelt's pragmatic reforms and Truman's GI Bill of Rights existed the immense middleclass we saw in the fifties would never have materialized.
I'm not even a Socialist. I'm a simple run of the mill pragmatic progressive who usually votes Democratic. Socialism, after all, is merely a theory. It is not evil, it is not anti human rights, and it may even work, and probably does in some places. Agree or disagree - the word should never have become a pejorative. But because it is, and it facilely falls out of the lips or Republicans and Libertarians who probably don't even know what Socialism is, it proves, or demonstrates, rather, the enormous victory the Captains of Industry, and their modern acolytes, have had. What, as Thomas Frank once asked, is the matter with Kansas?
Will the current economic crisis bring the myth makers down? I should hope so. But will greed also disappear from the face of the earth? That is the real question we have to ask. And there is only one way of containing greed. Through law and regulation.
"Will the current economic crisis bring the myth makers down?"
Both the prosperous and destitute cultivate mythology, but the prosperous do so for amusement or exploitation, while the destitute only out of desperation. It seems pragmatic then to expose truths and suppress myths. Nobody will miss them except the myth makers, the exploitive elites.
Economic crises tend to expose truths/suppress myths but not reliably. There's some mid-level of prosperity that reduces desperation so people will demand truths/reject myths. But not so high a level that people reject truths and indulge in myths for amusement, apathy or something sinister.
We suppose such a level is somewhere above the poverty level but no more than twice the poverty level. In this range, the desperation is reduced and people are aware, and open to enlightenment. But beyond this range, people become apathetic, unfulfilled, bored, spoiled, greedy, evil. Too little prosperity brings out El Desperado. Too much brings out El Diablo.
We may define four prosperity levels: desperate (below poverty), aware(1x to 2x poverty), bored (2x to 4x poverty), and evil (beyond 4x). The USA is failing because too many USans are too prosperous, bored, apathetic, open to myths, not concerned about truths, as long as their prosperity is preserved.
We progressives propose that public policy put most people at the aware prosperity level. At this level we are both able and willing to choose truths over myths, to help keep our heads above water. You can observe this in various societies past and present.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/updating-the-militarization-and-annexation-of-north-america/ <–The capitalists are gonna unite USA, Mexico and Canada into a corporate machine of plunder and death. I told the pizza and cake-slaves that live around my house to vote for an alternative party and not for Democrats and Republicans. but they thought i was crazy
wow! who'd a tho't WaPo would ever post a positive article about socialism? my gawd, one article makes more sense about bank "nationalization", health care, foreign policy, obama, etc., than a year's worth of WaPo's usual bullshit.
maybe they are seeing some light b/c the capitalism they shill for is destroying their business? it's main advertisers, the ones for whom the msm works, lockheed martin and boeing in WaPo's case, will not be pleased.
Yeah, it's an anomaly that this article showed up in the WaPo. Newspapers are shedding jobs and going bankrupt, but they're still corporate entities with uniform views about what is possible in society - and that doesn't include socialism.
-TIA
This article inspires the question of relativism, something we have to master anyway, in our daily lives. Political relativism makes most USans think a shift one inch to the left risks falling into a great socialist cesspool, while objectively they've already fallen into a deep capitalist cesspool. But why care about relativistic distortions when you can gain a false sense of balance within a relativistic frame? Your spaceship is moving ten lightyears per second straight for the sun. If you're walking foward in the cabin or backwards, well, that's a big difference from your point of view. If the elite establishment steals one or two years of your productive life to shore up their institutions of oppression what's the big deal? They are after all the dispensers of the jobs aren't they?
Let's use the capitalist crisis to establish a coalition between the TRUE left, i.e. we progressives who advocate for 100% human fulfillment, and the socialists who are more in the political center advocating for partial human fulfillment, since the socialists are now getting some attention from the Washington Post (heh heh). At least both camps disagree with private instruments of mass exploitation. And both agree on human fulfillment in most areas (too bad not all areas). We progressives insist however that the socialists allow for independence of local communities from regional and national bureaucracies, the cathedrals. Until the socialists can explain how the Social Security and Medicare programs managed to resist corruption all this time, we're going with the assumption that they will be corrupted tomorrow, following a long line of "incorruptible" institutions over the cliff.
This doesn't mean progressives reject Medicare for All. We support it as a reasonable step in the right direction. But with eyes wide open.
rtdrury sez: "Political relativism makes most USans think a shift one inch to the left risks falling into a great socialist cesspool ..."
***
Actually, propaganda makes most USAns believe that. In reality, a shift one inch to the left still leaves the country far to the right of centre.
Corruption in Medicare very much exists. You'll have to open eyes wider than that.
Please see another article linked today on CD:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/14-7
"Socialists understand him more as a hedge-fund Democrat -- one of a generation of neoliberal politicians firmly committed to free-market policies."
Thats the holy truth.
President Obama and official DC are as much about Green Zonism as anything:
From The Vassals Handbook
Lesson ten – the glory of the Green Zone
Some call it the God Zone, others with equal appreciation call it the Genghis Zone in honor of that great liberator of olden time Genghis Khan and his grandson Hulagu Khan who liberated Iraq from the Iraqis nearly 800 years prior to George Bush the Second when his invading legions overran the Middle East.
Whatever you call it, the Gravy Zone or the Grand Zone or simply the GZ, the Green Zone shines like a beacon that we might all live in the GZ someday, if we work hard enough and get lucky. That's the story anyway. Originally the Baghdad headquarters of the US occupation of Iraq, today the Green Zone means the Good Life. If you’re in the Zone, the Green Zone, you’ve got it made. Everyone there that I care to know makes six figures easy. Oh sure, you wind up dodging an incoming bomb or two on many a night, but with blast walls screening off ground attacks from the Red Zone – anywhere beyond the Green Zone – you feel safe enough. What’s life without a few bombs thrown about from time to time? ...
http://apragmaticpolicy.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/lesson-ten-the-glory-of-the-green-zone/
Why choose between a dictatorship of capital or one of the state? Why not choose decentralized direct democracy? What was once logistically difficult, technology has made easy.
I'm not sure what you are saying. A "decentralized direct democracy" falls into the philosophical anarchism school of thought. Having an anarchist form of government doesn't necessarily mean a lack of structure, but it does insist on decentralization of power. Anarchist thought also includes the mutual aid idea that fits within the socialist sphere of thinking.
Communism, for the most part, has a centralized control component, and it thereby diverges from anarchism.
However, if you are thinking that capitalism could still be maintained with a decentralized democracy, I'd say that you'd be inviting fascism in that case. Control over economics is a crucial part of bringing back a more humanistic way of life, and capitalist rule, even as it falters, is alway very brutal, as we see.
-TIA
Here is the another way:
http://ni4d.us/
You would have to have some sort of constitution stating what issues were not subject to the popular vote. The difficult question is deciding what belongs on that constitution.
We already have a rough idea, e.g. individual liberties can't be taken away by plebiscite. Changing the methodology does not mean starting over from scratch, it primarily involves putting the people in place of the Congress that displaced the people.
We can separate the Constitution from the national agenda, which would be democratically managed using the 30-second plebiscite. You nominate issues by a free postcard you get at the Post Office; it requires no postage. The issue getting the most nomination rises to the #1 spot on the agenda.
Then the research group studies the matter and presents the arguments pro and con on free national TV, using a closed, hard-wired, polling - based network that counts the ayes and nayes when we tell it we are ready for the question.
Excellent, TXP, we already have a constitution in the US! I just found it amidst this dusty stack of things the federal government likes to avoid talking about on its way to taking more power from the people without their consent!
Now if only the former constitutional law professor and current president could read the constitution from time to time, that would be such a great change from the past 8 years, when such enlightenment was considered challenging for the occupant.
"Excellent, TXP, we already have a constitution in the US!" Exactly my point. You probably knew that already, I just thought I would state it explicitly to be sure.
Wharton sez: "The first clear indication that Obama is not, in fact, a socialist, is the way his administration is avoiding structural changes to the financial system."
***
What should be getting thrown at Wall Street is 7 trillion regulations, not the same number of your grandchildren's dollars. And that should be just step one of a full system overhaul.
I was a former SP-USA member, but got disillusioned by the infighting at the Pennsylvania chapter, but the SP-USA is more functional in other states.
One would thing that Mr. Wharton would have at least given their website address; here it is:
http://www.sp-usa.org/
---USAn---
That's the problem, too. The Socialist Party is not anywhere near to being the Socialist Party of Eugene Debs.
Boring...I got about half-way through and my mind was wandering. Until he can get to the point quickly and capture readers attention he will remain in obscurity along with his party.
"Obama's No Socialist. "
Thank G*d.
To believe in G*d is to believe in the free market.
Paddle on, kayaker, but beware the falls ahead.
-TIA
The falls is the fun part. A sturdy creeking kayak and a strong boof stroke at the top...
...and then you drown.
ONLY REAL-SOCIALISM CAN GET US OUT OF THIS HELL, NOT DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS !!
HOWEVER: In order for socialism ideology to succeed in this world, socialists parties in this world have to rise to power, transform the media, convert the media ideology from capitalist, free market ideology toward socialism, spread socialism propaganda to the masses, and anti-capitalism propaganda. In other words, socialism has to become a ‘mainstream politically correct ideology’ in the eyes of the masses.
You guys just have to realize something. What i mean is that right now in most countries the mainstream political economy and philosophy is free-markets, businesses, credit cards, banks and individualist-capitalism, while socialism and communism are still despised and rejected by the majority of average world citizens, socialism and communism are still in diapers as alternative politically uncorrect ideologies.
Another good thing to push socialism and communism forward to become a mainstream ideology and a demanded ideology by the masses is that socialism has to suceed at least in a couple of countries like in Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba their populations have to accept it, love it, and be happy with socialism, so that other countries populations demand socialism in their own country.
So that US citizens having a hard time with paying their privatized services and devalued dollars, have to be aware and realize how socialism is increasing the living standards in other countries like Ecuador, Venezuela, Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina etc., and connect the dots, of how socialism would increase the living standars of the american population.
Because we all know that capitalism is making americans poorer (at least this stage of capitalism which is neoliberalism)
I am shocked. Shocked! That Billy Wharton praises Conyers' single payer plan. Not that there's anything wrong with it. But it's not socialist: with single payer, the health care system remains private, it's only that the government pays.
If you want socialized medicine, go to Great Britain, where the hospitals are public and the doctors are public employees...and they live longer than Americans, even though they spend half what the US does per capita.
I agree that the fully socialist British and French systems work very well.
The genuine socialist tendencies versus the social-democrat tendencies are a loing-running source of tension within the SP-USA.
---USAn---
No arguement from my side. The American (U.S.) public is so deeply indoctrinated that it has no capacity for understanding truth. According to studies I've read, the U.S. is one of the most religously fundamental nations (close to that of Saudi Arabia) in the world. Hence, the likes of Limbaugh and his ilk.
obama is a very dangerous man
he is a shill who was brought forward and endowed by wall street
look at his appointees
the few that past muster - most don't even pay their taxes - are all from wall street
all from wall street - does that tell you something folks
he is a bald faced liar - his campaign promises have shriveled up faster than a slug on a hot tarmac
he has ramped up bush's bailouts from 700 b to at least - the latest figure - 7 trillion - with undefined liabilities for the derivative markets which could exceed 100 trillion dollars very easily
even in debased dollars that is a lot of money
this year we the people paid 400 billion dollars in interest on the old deficit
so we have a bank crisis, some argue a bank created crisis, that we all agree was a result of out of control bankers running scams through collusion with rating agencies that gave their toxic "financial products" triple a ratings which they sold to the world thereby ruining entire countries and millions of people's wealth
the solution that obama champions is to give, in total secrecy, these banks 7 trillion dollars in this thing called a bailout, which no one understands and none of the corporate media talking heads can explain
where does the government get the money to give to the banks - why they get the money from the banks - at interest
huh
i thought they were broke
well they are
then how do we get money from them
well they don't actually have any but the "money" what they loan the treasury is just a computer transfer
no money involved - except we start paying interest on this computer blip from the moment the computer makes the transfer
it is a concept - nothing more
the banks scam the people - they get a bailout from the people - which is a computer blip from the fed to the treasury - then the treasury gives the blip back to the bank as a handout
what a scam
meanwhile back at the whitehouse we have a president about whom we know nothing
here are some obamafacts:
he started out in his first job working for henry kissinger - nwo shill and war criminal
he spent his whole working career in the bowels of the foundations - rockefeller and ford tax free wealth repositories
you really need to know nothing more
what is tragic is how he has played the american people and used their hopes for a better life against them/us
when i see his plan to raise an army of 1 million obama acolytes who are being asked to take down license plates of anyone they see with an anti-obama caption on the fenders....
they plan to send these fascist children door to door to find out who supports obama and who doesn't
obama plans to make military service mandatory for EVERYONE
starting with children 18-24
but will include seniors and adults in phase 2
a force as large or larger than the entire military
we are truly in deep shit in this country at this time and we need to rethink the whole obama psyop before we are inundated with brown shirts for obama
consider - fascism in italy an germany started as ground up movements
Unfortunately, those who would be played for fools rarely see the truth.
Jim Shea
All of this talk about "socialism" is straw-man scare talk by republicans. Americans voters have been so indoctrinated by such talk that they react like Pavlov's dogs to the word, even if it is totally meaningless and inapplicable. The American voter reacts fearfully when Obama is called a "redistributionist" even while the American economic system has for many years been redistributing the nation's wealth upward. Jeffferson was right! Democracy cannot exist with an ignorant electorate.
What you say is true. I had a discussion with a coworker. It wasn't about socialism. I was trying to explain to her that corporations are simply state-chartered entities that only exist to make a profit. They should have no business funding political campaigns, writing legislation or controlling our lives in any way.
Her reaction: "You're a socialist."
The fear of ideas, even facts, is tough to overcome in our present milieu.
-TIA
Exactly right.