The American War Moves to Pakistan
Bush's War Widens Dangerously
The decision to make public a presidential order of last July authorizing American strikes inside Pakistan without seeking the approval of the Pakistani government ends a long debate within, and on the periphery of, the Bush administration. Senator Barack Obama, aware of this ongoing debate during his own long battle with Hillary Clinton, tried to outflank her by supporting a policy of U.S. strikes into Pakistan. Senator John McCain and Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin have now echoed this view and so it has become, by consensus, official U.S. policy.
Its effects on Pakistan could be catastrophic, creating a severe crisis within the army and in the country at large. The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are opposed to the U.S. presence in the region, viewing it as the most serious threat to peace.
Why, then, has the U.S. decided to destabilize a crucial ally? Within Pakistan, some analysts argue that this is a carefully coordinated move to weaken the Pakistani state yet further by creating a crisis that extends way beyond the badlands on the frontier with Afghanistan. Its ultimate aim, they claim, would be the extraction of the Pakistani military's nuclear fangs. If this were the case, it would imply that Washington was indeed determined to break up the Pakistani state, since the country would very simply not survive a disaster on that scale.
In my view, however, the expansion of the war relates far more to the Bush administration's disastrous occupation in Afghanistan. It is hardly a secret that the regime of President Hamid Karzai is becoming more isolated with each passing day, as Taliban guerrillas move ever closer to Kabul.
When in doubt, escalate the war is an old imperial motto. The strikes against Pakistan represent -- like the decisions of President Richard Nixon and his National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger to bomb and then invade Cambodia (acts that, in the end, empowered Pol Pot and his monsters) -- a desperate bid to salvage a war that was never good, but has now gone badly wrong.
It is true that those resisting the NATO occupation cross the Pakistan-Afghan border with ease. However, the U.S. has often engaged in quiet negotiations with them. Several feelers have been put out to the Taliban in Pakistan, while U.S. intelligence experts regularly check into the Serena Hotel in Swat to discuss possibilities with Mullah Fazlullah, a local pro-Taliban leader. The same is true inside Afghanistan.
After the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, a whole layer of the Taliban's middle-level leadership crossed the border into Pakistan to regroup and plan for what lay ahead. By 2003, their guerrilla factions were starting to harass the occupying forces in Afghanistan and, during 2004, they began to be joined by a new generation of local recruits, by no means all jihadists, who were being radicalized by the occupation itself.
Though, in the world of the Western media, the Taliban has been entirely conflated with al-Qaeda, most of their supporters are, in fact, driven by quite local concerns. If NATO and the U.S. were to leave Afghanistan, their political evolution would most likely parallel that of Pakistan's domesticated Islamists.
The neo-Taliban now control at least twenty Afghan districts in Kandahar, Helmand, and Uruzgan provinces. It is hardly a secret that many officials in these zones are closet supporters of the guerrilla fighters. Though often characterized as a rural jacquerie they have won significant support in southern towns and they even led a Tet-style offensive in Kandahar in 2006. Elsewhere, mullahs who had initially supported President Karzai's allies are now railing against the foreigners and the government in Kabul. For the first time, calls for jihad against the occupation are even being heard in the non-Pashtun northeast border provinces of Takhar and Badakhshan.
The neo-Taliban have said that they will not join any government until "the foreigners" have left their country, which raises the question of the strategic aims of the United States. Is it the case, as NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer suggested to an audience at the Brookings Institution earlier this year, that the war in Afghanistan has little to do with spreading good governance in Afghanistan or even destroying the remnants of al-Qaeda? Is it part of a master plan, as outlined by a strategist in NATO Review in the Winter of 2005, to expand the focus of NATO from the Euro-Atlantic zone, because "in the 21st century NATO must become an alliance... designed to project systemic stability beyond its borders"?
As that strategist went on to write:
"The centre of gravity of power on this planet is moving inexorably eastward. As it does, the nature of power itself is changing. The Asia-Pacific region brings much that is dynamic and positive to this world, but as yet the rapid change therein is neither stable nor embedded in stable institutions. Until this is achieved, it is the strategic responsibility of Europeans and North Americans, and the institutions they have built, to lead the way... [S]ecurity effectiveness in such a world is impossible without both legitimacy and capability."
Such a strategy implies a permanent military presence on the borders of both China and Iran. Given that this is unacceptable to most Pakistanis and Afghans, it will only create a state of permanent mayhem in the region, resulting in ever more violence and terror, as well as heightened support for jihadi extremism, which, in turn, will but further stretch an already over-extended empire.
Globalizers
often speak as though U.S. hegemony and the spread of capitalism were
the same thing. This was certainly the case during the Cold War, but
the twin aims of yesteryear now stand in something closer to an inverse
relationship. For, in certain ways, it is the very spread of capitalism
that is gradually eroding U.S. hegemony in the world. Russian Prime
Minister Vladimir Putin's triumph in Georgia was a dramatic signal of
this fact. The American push into the Greater Middle East in recent
years, designed to demonstrate Washington's primacy over the Eurasian
powers, has descended into remarkable chaos, necessitating support from
the very powers it was meant to put on notice.
Pakistan's new, indirectly elected President, Asif Zardari, the husband of the assassinated Benazir Bhutto and a Pakistani "godfather" of the first order, indicated his support for U.S. strategy by inviting Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai to attend his inauguration, the only foreign leader to do so. Twinning himself with a discredited satrap in Kabul may have impressed some in Washington, but it only further decreased support for the widower Bhutto in his own country.
The key in Pakistan, as always, is the army. If the already heightened U.S. raids inside the country continue to escalate, the much-vaunted unity of the military High Command might come under real strain. At a meeting of corps commanders in Rawalpindi on September 12th, Pakistani Chief of Staff General Ashfaq Kayani received unanimous support for his relatively mild public denunciation of the recent U.S. strikes inside Pakistan in which he said the country's borders and sovereignty would be defended "at all cost."
Saying, however, that the Army will safeguard the country's sovereignty is different from doing so in practice. This is the heart of the contradiction. Perhaps the attacks will cease on November 4th. Perhaps pigs (with or without lipstick) will fly. What is really required in the region is an American/NATO exit strategy from Afghanistan, which should entail a regional solution involving Pakistan, Iran, India, and Russia. These four states could guarantee a national government and massive social reconstruction in that country. No matter what, NATO and the Americans have failed abysmally.
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61 Comments so far
Show Allwell Pak just had a T attack, gee I wonder why AQ would attack Pak who the US says gives them shelter? Maybe is was an US attack on Pak????
BACK ON LINE LATER
Just got a call to help put up some signs for the party I support. You see how easy it is!!!!!
Kenya boy
There was a few stories on other web sites that suggested Obama was born from a US mother under the age of 19 I think it was and the father from Kenya while in Kenya. Under US law he would not be classed as an American. He has till the end of this month to prove otherwise. So If it is true and what is on the web these days it would give the election to McCain. That was my point.
Joe:
If it helps ok great my point being so many postings are people thinking this makes change. Myself I could write almost what I want here from calling McCain , Bush etc almost anything under the sun. It won't change a thing.
I joined a political party, go to meetings, hand out information about the party. Go to stores in my Tee shirt that supports this party, ride my bike to raise money put up election signs for the party on lawns and beside the road. ETC ETC That is my point I am doing something even if the party I am backing won't win, that is my focus and I suggest to others to do the same. Being a part of the process is a great feeling, calling McCain and old fart does nothing for me.
Obama, that man from Kenya will do as he is told.
Looking at the USA from the outside I am amazed at some of the raw raw raw postings wishing for change that will not happen. Giving each other high 5's for good postings that are NEVER READ BY OBAMA or the rest. Please people for the 1000 th time do something beside hide in your basement patting yourselves on the back.
AND PLEASE STOP INSULTING those of us who are taking the time AWAY from the computer and doing something. You saying your posting are making change or when the shit hits the fan look out you will do something then is a joke. IT WAS HITTING THE FAN in a stolen election in 2000 folks.
PS: that was 8 years ago.
Can you see us from your house?
This is a place where I can listen to others so I don't get too stuck in one place, I hope. It helps me maintain energy. You make too many assumptions.
Joe
Obama is not "from" Kenya.
He is from America.
What was your point anyway, referring to him as 'that man from Kenya?'
Obama is not "from" Kenya.
He is from America.
What was your point anyway, referring to him as 'that man from Kenya?'
Obama does support strikes in Pakistan. However, I don't really think he'll be that bullyish once in office. There are domestic issues to take care of very badly that he'll have to do. And then there's Peak Oil. Mccain, on the other hand, will either be a Bush puppet as always or let Palin finish crashing the country.
the pakistani government has stated that US forces entering pakistan are to be fired on. they also mentioned that they are a nuclear state and are not to be messed with.
this is just one more country that has thumbed it's nose at the USA in the past few months. i don't think US citizens quite realise the way the US is regarded around the world.
this problem starts with the poor education US students receive regarding anything outside of the states. and is compounded by the stupid drip,drip, drip of "patriotism" flags flying everywhere, idiotic platitudes that foreigners dislike the states for it's success, it's greatness - it's freedom!!
the US has inflicted violence - whether physical or economic on most of the other countries in the world. it seizes control of other countries resources - either by economic might or maybe just a civil war followed by the installation of a tin-pot dictator.
children and families around the world live in refugee camps, or are sickened by water supplies contaminated by US corporations. they may be starving because their countries agricultural system has been adapted to grow crops that are in demand from the US.
maybe they work for a few cents a day so that US citizens can buy their clothes at walmart prices - or maybe they are making $200 running shoes? - it doesn't really matter, they are paid the same appalling wages.
perhaps their water supply is un-polluted - but the local pepsi or coca cola plant has taken control of the water to bottle into their products.
maybe they live in a prosperous nation - a country allied to the US? Japan and South Korea - where US serviceman sometimes rape or runover citizens with impunity. The UK where US embassy staff refuse to honour agreements regarding restrictions on vehicles in parts of London - and have just been told that if they ask questions regarding UK citizens held in Guantanamo, that the flow of information on security matters will be cut off - "putting the country at risk of terrorist attack".
There is a feeling around the world that Obama is the best hope for change - just look at how many people showed up to see him in Germany. The world is justifiably disgusted at US foreign policy - actually they are equally appalled at internal policies - leaving citizens to drown in New Orleans? - The richest country in the world?
At the moment the world seems to be uniting in it's defiance of the US - whether expelling ambassadors in South America, attacking embassies in Yemen or laughing at US condemnation of Russias recent behaviour.
Outside the US, things like the abandonment of New Orleans have been duly noted, it has also been clearly shown that the last two US elections have been rigged. -For americans, some of the BBC documentaries with Greg Palast would be an eye-opener! and i think there is still some sympathy for the citizens of the US.
The likelyhood is that a third straight republican win would exhaust that sympathy. People around the world will assume that the american people do actually endorse that style of government.The backlash will take many forms - i believe american products overseas have already started to become "uncool", that will no doubt continue, americans overseas are likely to be subject to more abuse,tourism to the states will likely drop.
- i was actually offered air tickets yesterday that would have saved $1200 by stopping over in the US - feeling a little silly i emailed my travel agent to say that i did not want to set foot in the states and would rather spend the extra money. - her response was that she "completely understands". - i suspect i was not the first customer she has had who share my feelings
on a larger scale the US will see other countries increasingly unwilling to bow to US demands, having broken international laws, the geneva convention etc. no US administration will have the ability to intervene or comment on any other countries behaviour without the sort of mockery and laughter that have been coming from South America, Russia, Iran etc.
the way to change this is not only to change administrations but to prosecute those in the republican party who have so badly abused their powers. failure to do so will be seen as acceptence of such behaviour.
No doubt i will recieve the usual abuse for daring to comment negatively on the US. I have been to the states many times, and not to the tourist areas. i have spent time in washington state, idaho, wyoming, montana, and south dakota. with the exception of parts of washington, these are not places where you will encounter too many democrats or liberals, but they are good people who love their country and what it used to stand for, i found myself welcomed and treated well in all of these places.
the sad thing is, that these people live in areas that are served primarily by Fox and ClearChannel, as are most of the "flyover" states. if they were not fed a steady stream of O'Reilly,Limbaugh,Hannity, Coulter et al. these staunch republicans would probably be far more motivated to remove bush/mccain than your average democrat.
yes, pakistan is being destabilised, but to the world outside that is not regarded as abnormal - that is just what the US does. What is different though, is that sympathy and support for the US is finished. Stretched to breaking both militarily and financially, the US really does seem to be facing those "end days"
that Palin is so keen on.
Nice post adrian. There are many here who need to hear this...
But:
"The likelyhood is that a third straight republican win would exhaust that sympathy. People around the world will assume that the american people do actually endorse that style of government."
They didn't win. Many of us here know it. I just don't know what to do if they steal it again and it goes unreported in the media, and it's made to look valid. What do we do?
Dante -
Excellent post, and not without historical precedent.
George McGovern ran against Nixon in 1972 on a platform that not only pledged US troop withdrawal from Vietnam, but some very specific cuts in the Pentagon budget for military hardware so that those resources could be re-directed to the civilian social safety net and used to balance the budget.
Nixon's TV spots in that campaign highlighted McGovern's proposed reductions in the number of US aircraft carriers, Marine divisions, B-52 bomber squadrons, and so forth by using graphics that showed toy soldiers, ships, and planes being swept off a game board by giant unseen hands. Nixon's reelection campaign also highlighted preposterous claims that "Peace with Honor" was at hand courtesy of Henry Kissinger's secret talks with the North Vietnamese in Paris (sorry - details still too classified to divulge, but trust us on this). Much credit for the ballyhooed progress in the secret peace negotiations was directly attributed to the 1970 "surge" into Cambodia, and to stepped up saturation bombing campaigns over North Vietnam and the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Thus, the nation was told, firm use of the big military stick had finally gotten the Commies to make some unspecified compromises. The only thing that could upset this momentum for peace with honor would be electing some fool who would squander America's diplomatic gains by giving away the store.
The final score I believe was Nixon 49 states, Democrats 1.
Ever since, the beltway leadership of the Democratic Party has taken it as an article of faith ever since that an appearance of military "toughness" is an essential ingredient in any two-party presidential campaign. Although references to a peace dividend always drew applause from the Dem grassroots at party rallies throughout the Clinton years, peace talk was never the stuff for media ads or for stump speeches before gatherings of swing voters.
Thusfar, Barack Obama has not gone wobbly on his pledge to end the military occupation of Iraq within a 16-month time frame. Although this is far short of even half a loaf (and I really think there would be great partisan mileage for the Democrats in openly denouncing and rejecting the whole Bush doctrine of preemptive war), it remains a move with some potential risk.
Maybe Petraeus's glorious return to Washington will force the issue. We'll see.
But it's hard to fault the Obama campaign for making a tactical choice right now to concentrate upon the looming collapse of the economy, when such a potent issue has been handed your way on a silver platter.
Bill from Saginaw
"How would we feel if Iran or any other country was openly discussing the justification of strikes on American soil?
I take your question to be a rhetorical one but it is very profound. (Indeed.)
How would you feel about a captured fighter pilot who just bombed your children?
Would you consider his actions heroic? Also rhetorical. Somehow we must learn or re-learn to imagine the other. When we do so our myths about ourselves will melt away.
Exactly.
Joe
Aren't military strikes on foreign soil a de facto act of war?
A violation of some sections of the United Nations charter?
How can this even be discussed with any sense of civility?
When Al Qaida made some "military strikes" into the United States on 9/11, we were understandably upset.
How would we feel if Iran or any other country was openly discussing the justification of strikes on American soil?
"Obama came out with both guns blazing, the Dems are always SO feawrful the GOP will win the "toughnes" war. He will come to regret it."
This may speak more about how you get elected in your country than Obama himself. What chance would anyone have of being elected President on a Ghandi like peace narrative? In my humble opinion absolutely none. The opposition would sucessfully paint such a candidate as being a weak appeaser in a very dangerous world. I have no doubt that most who post to this site (very informed) would vote for such a person but you represent a mere fraction of the American public. In other words the attack ads on a peace candidate would have little effect on most here on common dreams but it would have a massive impact on others.
In Obama's case he stands opposed to the invasion and occupation of Iraq (the bad war) while supporting the war in Afganistan. (the good war) For him to suggest that both are bad wars would amount to political suicide. John McCain would simply say, 'naive" ...case closed.
Well said. It's the big picture in America---not just the left.
Yeah, but that picture is "Guernica".....
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Tariq Ali's assessment of the bleak and threatening situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan is superb, and his bottom line solution (a coherent exit strategy to get NATO and American troops out of the region) is exactly right.
Also, I agree that Barack Obama's rather cavalier statements about using US military force inside Pakistan itself are disappointing and an ominous sign that while Barack's clearly gotten the message on Iraq ("a dumb war"), he still sees American militarism as possibly somehow "working" in a properly conducted "war on terrorism" held in the Afghan border area. This is a make believe distinction, whatever the motive may be.
Lurking in the background of this whole looming confrontation is the simple fact that it is flat out illegal under existing international law for one nation state to bomb the territory of another nation state "without seeking the approval" first of the government that's about to be bombed. It is an act of war. The mentality behind Bush's executive order is not only the height of imperial hubris. It is also the logical extension of the gravely eroded restraints upon the use of assassination (usually by the CIA's black ops boys) as an acceptable foreign policy option-on-the-table.
What is a Predator drone, after all, but a pilotless assassination device?
Where in the US Constitution did the drafters of that document ever grant to the executive branch of the federal government a power to simply murder people in cold blood, abroad or at home, outside the obvious context of declaring war?
The other elephant in the corner, lurking in the background, is of course the nukes.
Personally, I don't believe there's some murky plot afoot to "defang" Pakistan of its nuclear arsenal. If that were a genuine American goal, the time to have done it was immediately after 911, when complicity by Pakistan's ISI in facilitating the highjackers' plot was very much on the front burner of US suspicions.
The real danger of sabre rattling and surgical air strikes against Pakistan is the precisely the same threat that George Bush cried "Wolf" about in 2002 to justify the invasion of Iraq. The Pakistani military and the ISI have access to nukes, and Dr. Khan is a poster boy for clandestine black market nuclear proliferation.
"Destabilize" this particular "crucial ally" enough, and we shouldn't be terribly surprized if someone, some day, doesn't decide to match Predator drone attacks with a dirty bomb or two of their own, going off on American soil, leaving no fingerprints, but very likely leaving a trail that points back towards Osama, or towards some other evil doer who's not a Pakistani.
Bill from Saginaw
Thanks Bill. You said what I would have said.
Joe
remember the USA started the war that sucked Russia into Afghanistan 30 years ago. Then the USA arms department buys OBL guns to fight the Russians. Then screw him around and need to invent a new Darth Vadar so 911 gives the green light to attack the world at will. One thing Rummy, ROVE and the rest didn't think that Irag would last this long. Afghanistan is another long fight the US has no intentions of ever winning. Now Pakistan then all of a sudden terror attacks in India last week that have all the signs of CIA on it. Funny how India and Pakistan have started airline flights and trade together again, something the USA does NOT want to see. That is PEACE and PEACE is not profitable to the war machine in the US. The USA is on the biggest destabilise war around the world in the name of profits, oil and control. So thank you Russia the new cold war may have saved the world as the USA/IS war machine look very small again.
After vows to respect sovereignty, U.S. strikes in Pakistan
The suspected strike came as the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, was in Pakistan visiting the prime minister, the army chief and other officials.
The U.S. Embassy said Mullen "reiterated the U.S. commitment to respect Pakistan's sovereignty and to develop further U.S.-Pakistani cooperation and coordination on these critical issues that challenge the security and well-being of the people of both countries."
Is this a case of 'turning the other cheek' or just another 'day that will live in infamy' in the reign of George (Warmonger) Bush?
NATO, The Ethnic Cleanser isn't doing any better either.
"An Afghan district governor and two of his bodyguards have been killed by mistake in a Nato raid on a house in Uruzgan province, police say.
Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, expressed sorrow over the killing, which he called a "misunderstanding," and said the district chief, Rozi Khan, was his close associate.
Khan was allegedly killed on Wednesday when he went to the aid of a friend who had called for help believing the Taliban had surrounded his home, Uruzgan police chief, Gulab Khan, said.
The forces outside the man's home were however international troops, who in turn mistook the governor and his men for Taliban fighters, Gulab Khan said."
In the opinion of this armchair-based analyst, the U.S. is planning to steal Pakistani nukes. If the "terrorists" come to power in Pakistan, it may put brakes on the U.S. hegemony, and this is what Uncle Sam is trying to prevent.
riddimboyz: "The evil twins U.S./Pakistan are having a spat and all of us are getting unduly agitated"
You either have some sort of a bigoted opinion about Pakistan (that appears to be so from the other comments I've read) - or you are just another plain 'ol arrogant liberal American, and don't give a hoot about the families and children being killed in Pakistan. And the hundreds of thousands of refugees created due to Pakistani puppet regime, and its US masters actions. (That is the case of the Obama fanatics who support him, and his pro-war policies).
The US imperialism is indeed evil - but you could call Pakistan its twin, if the people of the US were put in harms way - that is obviously not the case. People like you who support the war on Afghanistan, and think that is a "good war" as you do the war on Pakistan, are also guilty of having paved the way for the empire's invasion of Iraq, and the continuing threat it poses to the people of the world.
As if there is any such thing as a "good" imperial war.
http://almusawwir.org/resistance/
As always you make these ridiculous assumptions to fit your own twisted worldview. Feel free to do that.
The antidote to U.S. Imperialism is NOT Jihadi Fundamentalism as you propose. Go back and read my earlier post before you start barfing all over the place.
By the way ...i have an extremely bigoted opinion about the Pakistani military and the ISI who have done nothing but destabilize the entire region by supporting an endless stream of fundamentalists which ofcourse does not reflect on the Pakistani people who never had a choice in the matter. Ofcourse such nuances are beyond your rigid us versus them mindset. I have no love for fundamentalist or rightist fellow Americans or Pakistanis and these distinctions are just distractions in the scheme of things. Pull your head out of the ground and look around once in a while.
A truthful article on O'Bush:
http://www.antiwar.com/lind/?articleid=13473
"But if Obama is right on Iraq, he is wrong on Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran. His prescriptions for each are so close to the policies of the Bush administration that if McCain is McBush, Obama appears to be O'Bush. It seems many voters' desire to climb up out of the Bush league altogether is doomed to frustration."
"Obama's position on Pakistan is even more dangerous. In August of 2007, Obama called for direct U.S. military action in Pakistan, with or without Pakistani approval. Speaking to the Woodrow Wilson Center, he said, "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will." President Bush took Senator Obama's recommendation this past July, authorizing such actions."
http://almusawwir.org/resistance/
The real question to be asked is - did Pakistan have Afghanistans approval to create, arm, fund, nurture and infiltrate the Taliban into their territory ? They did it because they could and for strategic advantage.
The evil twins U.S./Pakistan are having a spat and all of us are getting unduly agitated. Trust me .. it will blow over and the status quo will be achieved.
This article is very essential to the truth. America's next target of terrorism is Pakistan. The Terrorist White Hideout in Washington is now planning this cowardly act to kill many millions of other people. They are going after them for the nuclear capability. The economy is currently in the pits, so we need another war, to fill Washington's pockets. The more people that die, the more money they make. They only attacked Afganistan to get to Pakistan. To try to make a case to attack it. They will soon say that Pakistan is harboring terrorists and attack. And our average ignorant American will put up their bloodly American flag and say they are proud to be American.
"in certain ways, it is the very spread of capitalism that is gradually eroding U.S. hegemony in the world."
Translated: "In certain ways it is the spread of fossil fuel gluttony and the enslavement of people to the capitalist machine that is narrowing the US advantage in perpetrating global class war aggression."
But writers at Tomdispatch and The Nation must toe the capitalist line to maintain the economic viability of their publications.
The Nation is so ful of it anymoe. I wil never renew my subsctioptin.
"There are more Taliban in Afghanistan than Pakistan but for some reason they are attacking a country that has just gone through a DEMOCRATIC held election in the name of terrorism."
It seems whatever spin Pakistan puts on it they cannot escape their demons. its called blowback. Like Frankenstein, when you create a monster you cannot control it, it comes back and bites you in the ass.
Tariq Ali is in the Chomsky, Zinn, Naomi Klein, Anundrahti Roy class, and when he speaks of Pakistan he is in a class by himself. I've been lucky enough to have witnessed him him in person, decrying the DISINFORMATION which is so rampant. Beleve him.
rumiluv - I am thankful for those who use their gifts to discover what happens and to report it truthfully. Tariq Ali and the others you mention are in that class.
Joe
,
If Democrats cannot beat the Republicans without the votes of the folks who vote Independent, then that is the Democrats fault, not the fault of the people who chose not to vote for them.
http://www.votenader.org/index.html
.
.
VOTE NADER 2008 !!!!!!
End the wars
Bring the troops home
http://www.votenader.org/index.html
.
VOTE NADER 2008!!!!!!
Ensure McCain gets in
Continue the wars forever
There have been more than enough studies done on both the 2000 and 2004 elections to make it perfectly clear to anyone not obsessed that Nader's candidacy never served a the role of spoiler. That you continue to endlessly rebut those who believe Nader to be the best candidate in this race with such sorry and childish rant speaks nothing about the Nader candidacy and volumes about your inability to mount a real defense for voting Democratic.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I'm glad you saw this as the childish rant that it is. It was written to display the childishness of nannie's rant. To think that voting for Nader will result in ANY war ending, or ANY troops coming home, is foolishness. The vote MIGHT however, in a close election, result in McCain getting in.
I've never claimed that Nader was a spoiler in the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004. I respect his anti-corporate stance and his passion. I just don't believe anyone should be fooled into believing that by voting for him, you're voting for the end of anything. He won't win. Sorry, but that's just reality. That leaves us with Obama or McCain. Of these two, I believe Obama is the one who will most likely keep us from invading Iran, or starting something with a bombing campaign. This could conceivably result in the saving of millions of innocent lives. But, by all means, vote for Nader if you want---just don't fool yourself into believing it will have any positive result.
May I differ with your opinion, yet again. Voting for Nader will end something important, the stranglehold of the two party system and the automatic and knee jerk reaction of the American voter in voting for either Tweedledum or Tweedledumber.
One might believe that voting Nader or McKinney, and in increasing numbers, will force the Democrats left to recapture those lost votes, I do not but it has a certain validity. One might believe that one should vote for that candidate who best expresses ones own views for the course of this nation, and that candidate, for me, is Ralph Nader.
How do you hope to change the rotten system by continuing to support it? How do you justify an antiwar stance by voting for a man who has stated, and very clearly, that he supports more war, just a change in locale? How do you hope to end the proprietary hold on our govt by the wealthiest corporations by voting for a man who is owned by those corporations? Obama has collected far more money from corporate sources than has John McCain you might understand. How do you expect things to change when your voting patterns fail to change?
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Move that colossal hulk Demok party on over here to the left or take the blame yourself for any Repuk win, ehh? Let's hear it people!
With Pakistan being a NUKE POWER do you think that maybe have something to do with the attacks. There are more Taliban in Afghanistan than Pakistan but for some reason they are attacking a country that has just gone through a DEMOCRATIC held election in the name of terrorism. Just the other day Pakistan shot at 3 US choppers forcing them back into Afghanistan.
I will not be surprised when the day comes that Pakistan has had enough and flattens a few hundred American/Nato troops. Then watch the USA start crying to the UN.
OK
"What is really required in the region is an American/NATO exit strategy from Afghanistan, which should entail a regional solution involving Pakistan, Iran, India, and Russia. "
This is the holy truth and cudos to Tariq Ali for mentioning it. The U.S. forces must get out of there but the regional powers MUST be involved in securing peace. Allowing the Taliban to run roughshod over the region is a recipe for disaster .. at least for the Afghans.
The antidote to imperialism is not religious fundamentalism. They are two sides of the same coin. A lot of 'progressives' would like to wash their hands off the problem, but we broke it and we need to fix it responsibly. We need to get all U.S. and NATO forces out of there and start the process of involving the regional powers in stabilizing the region.
Is that why Big Defense has given more money to Obama than even Mccain or Hillary unlike past presidential elections where the Republican candidate usually gets the most from Big Defense?
Obama's promised to end the Iraq war and repair the military that was destroyed by the inept republican wars...
Why do you distort the words of Barack Obama? What he promised was to ensure that, instead of our troops dying in Iraq, they would die in Pakistan.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I think Obama will slow down the war madness at least a fair amount. He will definitely face a very hostile House and Senate, both Republicans and conservative Democrats. Nader's a great guy but I can't see him getting anywhere even if he were to somehow win the presidency. Both parties would make him irrelevant and maybe even oust him on false charges when they had the solid majority to do so.
I have one fear of Obama. As a black man he will feel a need to prove that he's tough, that he fulfills Hollywood's idea of no-nonsense Americans beating up the rest of the world, that he's one of the boys (white).
The only way he'll be able to do that is to pick on some 3rd world country to invade. Preferably one that is non-white...
China would be perfect but that's to invite disaster. Pakistan is better...
You read it here first...
"may you live in interesting times"
I think (and hope) he's too intelligent for that.
Hope you're right. But he will be under a lot of pressure...
"may you live in interesting times"
sierra7
I keep repeating on CD posts:
Obama will give us a "choice of wars"; McCain will give us war in perpetuity......
As an aside: Tariq Ali is right up there with the best of them...been following his writings for years......pay attention to him.
"ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Air-fired missiles hit a militant compound near the Afghan border and killed at least six people Wednesday evening, officials said, soon after a senior American officer met with government leaders to discuss the furor over U.S. attacks inside Pakistan."
And so it goes...
we are at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eurasia, we will always be at...
Great quote. I wonder when the people in our country will see that the rest of the world now looks upon us with nothing except loathing and fear.
"It is not if we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists will we be"
-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr
Which Nominee Will Call For Immediate Peace Negotiations Between The U.S.A., Pakistan and Afghanistan.
"Why would a nominee do such a thing?"
"To stop the bloodshed."
"What sort of negotiations?"
"Where all sides sit down together and work things out on the basis of one equals one."
"What effect would advocating such negotiations have upon a nominee's chances of winning the November election?"
"He'd win in a landslide."
"Why?"
"For having been instrumental in stopping the bloodshed."
"And then what sort of world?"
"It'll be up to us."
Is it time yet for us to begin calling Obama "O-same-a"? Does anyone really believe that Obama or McCain will bring change?
"It is not if we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists will we be"
-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr
Totally bankrupt, perpetually at war, led by the blind. That's a recipe for...something.
Wooo hoooo --- CD posts a two sentence foot note critical of Obama - of-course, it is a link to an outside site - but it is a start, a teen weeny tiny little step. Just like what Obama said about Bush's increased bombing of Afghanistan and Pakistan, he called it "baby steps" towards doing the right thing...
"In a two-part video, released by TomDispatch.com, he offers critical commentary on Barack Obama's plans for Afghanistan and Pakistan, as well as on the tangled U.S.-Pakistani relationship."
http://almusawwir.org/resistance/
Thanks for the link, depressing as it may be.
Obama came out with both guns blazing, the Dems are always SO feawrful the GOP will win the "toughnes" war. He will come to regret it.
The war has to move somewhere since the warranty in Iraq has expired. And knowing the pack of savage idiots running this bankrupt country as well as we do by now, they'll move it to one of the worst possible places: Pakistan. At least these nerds and jerk-offs are consistent. Sarah Palin will now tell you that she can see Pakistan from Alaska with her binoculars and the place is crawling with heavily armed bearded men driving Toyota pickup trucks and burning American flags around the clock. Let's kill 'em all! I swear to you, we can win this one!
She believes she can see Pakistan from Alaska because she believes the world is flat. How can you argue with her?
The key in Pakistan, as always, is the army.
Which according to the newspapers in my home town have been given the orders to fire on any us forces that cross the border into Pakistan. Yee haw!