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TechnoratiShe’s Clueless, He’s Worse
Ignorance is bliss, which perhaps explains Gov. Sarah Palin being so confidently wrong about the root cause of the federalization of most of the nation's mortgage market. But what is Sen. John McCain's excuse? Both act as if the financial meltdown of the U.S. economy has nothing to do with the policies of the political party they represent -- but she at least may not know any better.
Distracted momentarily from her campaign revelries of maverick opposition to the "bridge to nowhere," which she had supported until it became a public relations debacle, and congressional earmarks for which she, as a small-town mayor, had hustled piggishly at the federal trough, Palin made the mistake of dealing with an unscripted subject.
Referring to the government's bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Palin opined that the two had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers," displaying abysmal ignorance of the fact that only now will those privately owned banks become a huge taxpayer obligation, as the federal government takes them over. Nor can the meltdown of home values be traced to those two beleaguered institutions, because they did not make the original subprime mortgage commitments.
The housing bubble was the result of the Ponzi-scheme antics of those other financial entities: commercial banks, stockbrokers and hedge funds, which were allowed in a GOP-deregulated market to get into the "swap" business. Through the rampant reselling of loans, the obligation to collect on a loan was divorced from the act of selling it in the first place, so who cared if the recipient of the loan was not at all qualified or the appraisal of the property value was inflated, as long as the paper was traded away, or insured, before the moment of foreclosure?
As with any Ponzi scheme, the perps, who included the legislators as well as the bankers who exploited the loopholes they provided, expected to bail long before the bubble burst. The role of the legislators, Republican-led but with far too many Democratic running dogs, was critical to the success of the scam.
The mortgage swaps distancing the originator of the loan from the ultimate collector were made legal only as a result of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which former Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Texas, pushed through Congress just hours before the 2000 Christmas recess. Gramm, until recently co-chair of the McCain campaign, also had co-authored the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which became law in 1999 with President Bill Clinton's signature. That gem, which Gramm had pushed for years with massive financial industry lobbying, destroyed the Depression-era barrier to the merger of stockbrokers, banks and insurance companies. Those two acts effectively ended significant regulation of the financial community, and no wonder we have witnessed an even more rapid and severe meltdown in housing values than during the Great Depression.
Not surprisingly, Gramm was rewarded for his service upon retirement as a senator and as head of the Senate Banking Committee with a top position at the Swiss-based UBS bank, which is close to drowning in the subprime mortgage nightmare he helped create. These folks have no shame, as was evidenced when the senator's wife, Wendy, was named a director of Enron, whose roiling of the energy market had been made possible only through yet another provision of Gramm's Commodity Futures Modernization Act.
While neophyte Palin can claim ignorance of such matters, that would be particularly difficult for McCain, who as a senator consistently lined up with Gramm in his deregulation crusade. Clearly McCain had not learned much from his previous involvement with the savings-and-loan debacle about the risks to consumers in unregulated banking.
McCain served as chair of Gramm's abortive 1996 presidential campaign, and Gramm returned the favor, providing critical support for McCain with the hard-line Republican base, including the editorial board of The Wall Street Journal. It was assumed in the business press that Gramm was the front-runner to be Treasury secretary in a McCain administration. Gramm left his role as the top economic person near McCain only after he made an embarrassing statement blaming the current economic downturn on "whiners," an awkward reference to the victims of his disastrous legislation.
Amazingly, the turmoil in the housing market, which has led to the socializing of the nation's revered homeownership market in a massive expansion of the role of big government, has apparently not troubled McCain's conservative supporters. As I said, ignorance is bliss, and evidently not just for the newbie Palin.
270 Comments so far
Show AllThe blind leading the blind??? This is getting scarier by the day.
War with Russia. This just in. Palin declares war on Russia. This stupid biatch is gonna be the one to press that red hot button and take us all down the tube. She see is Cheneys evil twin !!
Palin is just putting our bipartisan foreign policy consensus into plain English. Both McCain and Obama support NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine, in which case an attack on Georgia or Ukraine is an attack on America!
Vote third party to break the Republicrat stranglehold.
Lets hope the rational thinking people outweigh the shallow thinking RepubliCONs or we're doomed to 4 more years of the same hell we've been in for the last eight...
No I don't think Obama is a messiah (& I'm offended when RepubliCONs call him that)...but I do think he cares a lot more for the REAL everyday people than John (I don't know how many houses I own) McCain. People who worry about how they're going to afford getting back & forth to work this week with gas prices so high. Who have to buy generic more than name brands because their grocery bills have doubled in the last 8 years. The kind of people who buy their socks at Wal-mart and can't REMOTELY imagine spending $300 G's on an outfit! I sure wish someone would pay ME to stay in my own home!!! That might pay for the health care I can't afford because the restaurant I worked at closed. And God help me if I was coming home late one night from my job as a bartender and I was raped in the parking lot and became pregnant. Not only would it destroy me mentally & emotionally if I was forced to carry the baby of my rapist to term, but it would ruin me financially with no health insurance. Especially if I had to pay for my own "rape kit"!!!
Sorry, but I don't want a reactionary, hot-tempered, war-hardened old man with 1 foot in the grave (who was caught singing "Bomb, bomb, Iran" on youtube) to have his finger on that red button at 3am. He'd probably push it just to go back to sleep! I want a man whose nature it is to intelligently think through a problem and approach it from all angles. Obama has the brains to adjust his thinking when new evidence arises or circumstances change.He doesn't lock into a position stubbornly and rigidly refuse to change his thinking. Lets not forget that this man graduated from Harvard Law having been head of the Law Review. THE most prestigious position there is. AND he was the 1st black man to do it. McCain, by his own admission graduated 5th from the BOTTOM of his class in the Naval Academy. Not a candidate for Mensa to be sure. With all due respect, being a "POW" might have developed his character (which has been in serious question lately) but it didn't earn him a degree in the RIGHT to be President. And since when is the Presidency a "reward" that McCain has "earned" because he was a POW & spent 26yrs in Washington? I thought it was based on whoever was BEST for the country. Silly me...And lets not overlook the fact that McCain has a well-known reputation of being nasty when he's not agreed with. On the matter of his temper, he's DEFINATELY bi-partisan, having thrown members of BOTH parties out of his office if they irked him. (again check out YouTube if you don't believe me) No wonder Bill O'Reilly worships at his altar...He sees himself in McCain. An since the media has a "if it bleeds, it leads mentality", they dutifily parrot everything the GOP says as if its gospel before later having to retract most of it when it turns out to be lies.
AMEN, I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT AS WELL. MANY KUDOS TO YOU(DOS). I LOVE TO RHYME.
You can put lipstick on a pig, but then some Republican Senator will want to have sex with it.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
How does the democratic party plan on changing pigs?
They are going to send a hog in to lead them.
I am a Progressive but I can think of nothing useful in voting for Nader. The stakes are simply too high to piss my vote away and in essence elect McPalin. I am of the firm belief they would be a disaster of epic proportions. She is woefully unqualified and he's got one foot on a banana peel and one foot in the grave. Do I want a Dominionist with their perfectly manicured nail on the hot button? HELL NO. ENOUGH I am sick, sick, sick to death of the religious right getting their way election after election to the detriment of my Country. Any Progressive that aids and abets this travishamockery of a ticket to elevate to our highest office has only themselves to blame for the inevitable fallout that will occur.
War is Peace
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery
Ditto. But after this election, and after I finish college this December, I am sure as hell going to try to help establish a viable alternative/independent political party. We need it so bad.
I agree with you. There's too much at stake to vote for a 3rd party candidate; they just won't win, which is unfortunate. A vote for a 3rd party candidate would give the keys to the asylum back to the inmates --- the Republicans.
Vote for OBAMA for President!
Yeah, that is the problem, both the Dem O Rats and the Greedy Oil Party have the keys.
I wished I could say the same but even though I didn't vote in the primaries, I waited to see what Obama would be like. I would have expected Hillary to run further to the rightwing on Iraq, trade, and other issues but Obama surprisngly did it all too faster. I don't see Obama standing up to the rightwing bullies even now so how can I expect to see him do so as President?
Exactly Frederick.
He bought himself the democratic ticket with audacity and hope.
Now that he has that secured, he is trying to buy the presidential ticket on conformity and despair.
Who in their right mind does not see this?
Excuse me I mean he is trying to buy the presidential ticket on acquiescence and despair. My bad.
Sarah Palin is a bully and a rube who thinks she's sooo tough. I agree with her that she's a female canine, however. She's also a racist and a sexist against her own sex; she said "So Sambo (Obama) beat the bitch (Hillary)." Being raped and then giving birth to the rapist's child is A-OK with her; she's against abortion. In Alaska, the victim of a rape is charged for the rape test kit. If it's a poor girl that can't afford it, then there's no rape charge and the rapist goes free. I think she (along with McCain) has a few screws loose. Alaska has the highest number of sex offenders, by the way.
The Obama/Biden ticket have to look beyond that issue if they want to win. Besides, Roe V Wade has already been rendered IRRELEVANT legislation after legislation these past 8 years.
Well, I've been thinking about this whole thing, and some of you who have read my posts might find that scary, but I have been. It seems to me that a fine line of distinction that goes unnoticed here and everywhere is that whomever wins will only win by plus or minus a few percentage points or less, and certainly less than ten percent of the American vote.
Every other voter can fall into the category of lifetime supporter of one of the two parties. There lies within these two realities a general hatred one for the other. Thus approx. one half of our nation hates the other half and vice versa.
Not only that but we are lined up with more of one than the other in particular states.
Of course there is a small but significant minority group ranging for zero to six percent that often if not always votes for a third party.
Then there are the non voters which account for up to forty percent of our national election group.
This is not news to anyone, but I find it a significant reality often overlooked.
Will our country eventually fracture?
Leea, your country is the ONLY place on this globe which hasn't changed its political system in a whopping 250+ years!!! I mean, you are still doing things the way they thought was great in the 18th century, i.e, before even the French Revolution!, when you had just a few million inhabitants!!!!
There is no place on earth (!!) MORE conservative when it comes to structures than the USA! I want you to know that and think about it!
Your entire system is hopelessly outdated, an 18th century KING (yes, that's what your president was originally supposed to be, they had no other role models) who is head of state and head of government at the same time, pretty much UNIQUE in the world today. Unique among democracies, for sure!!
A government that can hardly be dissolved at any time by a parliament, pretty much UNIQUE in the world as well!!!
It's as backward as these ancient household appliances they still keep selling in America or as these school-buses that look like they are from the 1950s. The world has moved on.
America is still governed by the ignorance its schools and media, both underperforming, seem to dish out to the greater public, so Americans still don't know that they are the only(!!!) country on earth that hasn't revised the way it is governed for more than two centuries! And no, it wasn't that perfect then, what they devised. It was okay, considering that they had no role models at the time. But that's just it: Okay.
And that their system is dramatically outdated and inefficient and that Americans are too uneducated to know, this is simply a tragedy. Also for the rest of the world.
I've been thinking too (but then I can do little else these days). If you look at what has happened in this country in the past eight years, you can see clearly how wedges have been driven into every segment of our society to divide us. A wedge has been driven to divide Republicans from all others; a wedge to divide the Christian Right from all other believers; a wedge dividing Patriots (war mongers) from all others; and every other area that has two sides, which is everything - it's all been riven by that wedge.
So who's responsible for having those wedges driven? I have my opinion, but I'll leave yours to you.
Actually wedge driving is a nasty by-product of ego consciousness. According to experts this crippling human tendency will absolve it's self.
I don't see it happening yet though.
I'd like to hear your opinion.
"Every other voter can fall into the category of lifetime supporter of one of the two parties. There lies within these two realities a general hatred one for the other. Thus approx. one half of our nation hates the other half and vice versa."
I'm not so sure about that. There are a lot more swing and undecided voters out there. It's just that they're not getting any attention. As far as I can tell, of those who do vote, here's the breakdown:
Staunch Democrat - 30-40%
Staunch Republican - 30-40%
Swing/Undecideds/Moderate/Independent - 20-30% - could go either way or even 3rd party if the anti-two-party sentiment is strong enough.
It's not as divided as one thinks. Also, Staunch party voters can switch to being swing voters if their opposition actually interests them. For example, I have come across gun toting, anti-abortion zealots who vote Democrat when that candidate makes ending "free" trade a central campaign theme and doesn't let the social issues arise.
"Then there are the non voters which account for up to forty percent of our national election group."
That definitely is the lower non-voter percentage and is generally higher 50-55%. That certainly doesn't bode well. I have read that statistically, the reason people don't vote is simply because they were not able to get their registration in more than those not interested in politics or don't like either party but have no hope in 3rd party candidates standing up to the system. However, while true, I would add that neither party truly motivates people to register in droves although amazingly the Democrats have been able to register new voters registered to the party while the Republicans have registered fewer for the first time. Where these new votes go to is anybody's guess. If more people were actually motivated to vote, far more voter registrations on time would be happening and the system would be forced to make room for increasing number of highly motivated newcomers into voting.
"Will our country eventually fracture?"
It already has, just not territorially obvious. Also, it all depends on which state and/or area you're in. I live in South Carolina and the state has been in total disrepair for at least 20 years, not that it was stellar even in the 1960s. YMMV for your state and/or area you're in.
Thanks Frederick. I knew my numbers were generalized and someone might tighten them up.
I still can't help but think that in essence candidacies are won on prejudice and apathy.
No matter who you vote for, this overriding theme cannot be healthy for a country.
I think if unchecked, it will eventually calcify and we will never recover.
Even the third party representatives must play this card to a large degree.
Don't you agree?
"candidacies are won on prejudice and apathy."
Prejudice, I can see that as these days all we get of the major party candidates are big empties. Apathy? I guess it depends. But how do you think apathy is really responsible for a candidate's victory?
"Even the third party representatives must play this card to a large degree."
I lost you on that one.
Nader and McKinney have both used prejudice or dislike for the nature of the other two parties and or their policies as a levering stick to bolster their support.
Apathy and prejudice go together in my opinion. The lack of really caring can be turned into caring about base and primal fears or prejudices of the 'other'. Though for some reason almost half of our population is not motivated by this maneuvering.
Did you hear Obama's joke, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
I think he didn't really get the issue. It depends on who owns the pig.
I think he would have been more effective if he had asked, how do republicans change a pig? Put lipstick on it.
"Nader and McKinney have both used prejudice or dislike for the nature of the other two parties and or their policies as a levering stick to bolster their support." Yep. That makes EVERY human being prejudiced. In other words, having an opinion makes one prejudiced against a counter-opinion and the real world. Welcome to the real world.
ty jo, I appreciate the warm reception. The lights a little glaring though.
Ahh, I see. I did hear about the pig lipstick joke. That's 4 years old anyway and was surprised he didn't try something else. I can't be too surprised though.
As for Nader and McKinney, I can see where they can be called mere fault finders but yes, I think they had no choice but to attack the two parties because a lot of conservative voters who really care about privacy and a lot of working class citizens who really care about the economy are being blatantly sold and written off by the Republicans and Democrats. I cannot be sure what the main reason for half our population not voting is. The lack of 3rd parties to actually care but instead be tempted into fault finding sounds like another great reason why voters who don't vote are turned off.
Yes, I think it weighs in. The person that can focus on the issues and when the other side falls into petty human foibles, still focus on the issues, will be the one that can really lead us effectively.
I don't know if this will ever happen. We might be the ones who do this work.
So far I find myself sidetracked if not falling in to the petty issues. I can't seem to help it. But while I'm sidetracked, I figure I may as well make the best of it.
Heh.
Robert Scheer makes some fairly stunning revelations here: connecting Phil Gramm's lobbyist-inspired legislation directly to the mortgage crisis and pointing out that Gramm is in line to become Sec. of the Treasury in a McCain administration.
But what's even more stunning is how so few posters seem to recognize the significance of these revelations and are happy to simply paste posts that they generated on other threads.
After reading the title I thought this was going to be a Sarah Palin and Barack Obama commentary.
The situation we the middleclass find ourselves today is the result of the supression of wages over the last 25 years.The fed using the argument that raising wages causes inflation to rise.
This wage supression forced people to turn to debt to live their lifes.
Yet, they (the Fed), pumped trillions of dollars of their fiat currency into the market, destroying our purchasing power while the government and their banking buddies on wallstreet reap the profits of the hidden tax,inflation.
So, while you wonder why you working longer hours for less money in real purchasing power then you were 25 years ago? You have only one place to look..
The Federal Reserve, the handmaiden of Wallstreet.
And the Great Deregulator at the core of that change? Ronald Reagan, still the most destructive President in this country's history, and his "conservative" Republican Party. It doesn't matter who the personalities are, folks, electing Republicans means more exploitation of the American worker.
Obama needs to attack the "conservative" ideology. He did praise Ronnie Raygun in the past and has taken a lot of flack for it and I too was thoroughly disappointed. I don't remember Hillary praising Raygun.
To Beat McCain-Palin, Obama and Biden Need to Start Using the ‘C’-Word (No, not that one, the other one…)
by
Thomas J. Bico
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v6iSEPT102008Cword.htm
Also,
The Fatal Flaw of Dems' "Competence" Strategy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/the-fatal-flaw-of-dems-_b_17954.html
The "conservative" ideology has not only owned the Republican Party lock stock and barrel but also a great deal of the Democratic Party.
"Every country has the government it deserves."
(Joseph Marie de Maistre; French diplomat, writer, philosopher and politician, 1753-1821)
One might add: And the politicians it deserves.
excellent, thanks for that one A.
I've been to BOTH right wing and sights like these, trying to get both sides and an education( learning experience) as well. Trying to be open minded. And now the WINNER of the most closed minded, self serving, insulting, BOORISH postings goes to.......DRUM ROLL please.....................wcdevins.
Hey WC....do us all a favor and dial it down a few notches. You just may learn something....and there's much to learn.
Ten bucks says I'm not the first one to tell you that.
(that's for BOTH left and right wing groups)
geepers wc...you've come full circle
Are you referring to wc's comments concerning Reagan? If so, why are his comments closed minded? Are you referring to his comments concerning the Republican Party? Why are those comments closed minded?
The popular (and false) narrative in relation to the Republican Party is that they are fiscally conservative, "small" government proponents, and won't raise one's taxes. History shows this view to be patently false and in fact almost the opposite of reality. The deficit goes down with Democrats in office and government doesn't grow as much as under Republican leadership - it just grows in different sectors that I imagine many people just can't abide due to their own personal set of values.
It amazes me, in terms of Reagan, just how revered he is based again on a false narrative. Trickle down economics is a myth but it certainly does benefit those near the top of the economic "food-chain," so of course those people will find rationalizations to support his theories while everyone else is left to fend for themselves.
What we saw happening in New Orleans can be directly traced to 80's economic philosopies and their accompanying moral imperatives that allow the flawed theories to exist and even flouish while establishing the less than humane mantra that we all stand alone and either make it or not. This philosophy was propogated to enable the "trickle down" theory to flourish. Truth is we all need help and anyone who finds themselves "privileged" didn't do it on their own - somewhere, some way they were assisted. Another false narrative.
The erosion of the constitution can also be traced to the Reagan administration (Iran-Contra), which of course has benefited some circles financially so that segment (usually the powerful) will find the necessary rationalizations to justify this obscenity as well. Any time we as a nation are involved in arms dealing and cloaking it in some sort of national security cloth we as a society are suspect.
Ollie North, cloaking himself in patriotism (false) to protect Reagan and his criminal and immoral ways only places himself in that realm as well. Are these attributes that we should revere? I don't think so.
Truth be told Reagan as well as Nixon and the current Bush all deserved to be impeached and live the remaining years of their lives in disgrace - and this from the party who claims some sort of "moral" superiorty. Another false narrative.
This is not to excuse the Democrats for their mendacity, hubris, and expedient morals, but right now the subject is Reagan and the Republican party.
If these observations are closed minded in your view, then I would suggest that perhaps you're not as much a seeker of truth or education as you think you are.
To my way of thinking, if truth, sincerity, and authenticity were recognized and truly valued in our society we would be trying to decide between the likes of people like Kucinich, Hagel, Nader, Paul, Feingold, Chafee, Webb, (none perfect by any stretch of the imagination) etc. instead of McCain or Obama. But of course that will never happen - the powers that be have too much to lose to give us those kinds of choices. If it ever happens it will be because the people have taken that power and simply circumvented the power elite. We'll see.
Thanks for coming to my defense, ej, but I think he (she?) was referring to some of my name-calling and personal invective. Good stuff about the real Reagan legacy, though!
My bad, sorry.
Hey Atheist...
Welcome to the vast right wing conspiracy...*wink*
The paranoia level in here is reaching epic proportions...forget CERN, this place is going to implode into a black hole (no pun) any day now
"the vast right wing conspiracy"
I remember the time Hillary first said that phrase back in 1998. The GOP went relentless on it once Bill confessed. She did use that phrase later I think when trying to tackle the media for its rightwing bias
Right-wing Propagandists Wet Pants - Hillary Clinton Is Tougher - and Stronger - Than Them
by
Thomas J. Bico
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v6iNewHampshireresults.htm
Maybe that's why the media made sure Obama won although it was a close race in the end.
This election campaigning looks dumber and dumber every day. I wish Mccain would be honest with himself and actually discuss what he had actually done these past 26 years and explain himself and inform the public how he plans to further what he did. He says he stood up to his own party and the Democrats but doesn't specify. And he doesn't mention the bills he passed. Is that supposed to mean that those are bad policies he doesn't want the public to know about? I could pretty much say similar for Obama and Hillary.
Regardless of whether Obama or Mccain makes it to the White House, I don't see any hope for change and even those who withstood the past 8 years of the damages Bush/Cheney laid on the country and better be prepared for the worst. Even Bob Barr looks a hell of a lot better than John Mccain.
Bring America Back !!!!
**The real clueless one is Pres Bush and his incompetent Neocons. American Taxpayers must realize that all these buyouts come at the sheer expense of their pockets. If we wonder why education, healthcare, border security, and home ownership and infrastructure suffers==it is the Incompetent, Mindless, Unfeeling Repubbbies ruining our Nation !!
**Despite how adorable Sarah Palin is, and she really is, a vote for the McCain Ticket is a continuation of 4 more years of economic recession, depression, and further agrandisement of the corrupt corporate ruling structure.
**The only hope is an Obama Victory, where there will be at least an open
ear, and a chance to influence another direction for the betterment of mankind !
**On this 7th Anniversary of 9/11, let us renew our pledge to Never Forget, and revive our heartfelt intent to get Republicans out of power completely !
Hopefully, forever !!! If it has an "R" after it's name, Do Not Vote For It!
This site is crawling with Karl Rove agents pretending to be dissafected Hillary voters, or more often, hard leftists who crap on Obama and promote Nader.
memo to getreal
Karl Rove isn't on anyones campaign this go round...He's a Political Analyst for Newsweek
(maybe it's the Illuminati or the Bilderberg Group...Booga Booga)
racom40
Rove is the only reason holy joe is not the vp selection, he was/is mccains first choice. rove is in this campaign up to his lying eyeballs. Try to catch up.
Did any of you read the story Newsweek did on Sarah "Palintology" Pretty good article.
Pretty balanced in my opinion. Whether she will be good or bad for the nation seems to be anybodies guess there at NW. Still wish I could get my hands on Cheney's crystal ball.
Cheerio
If I had to guess, I'd say that in the end, Palin's not really going to bother evangelizing this country to death in an obviously blatant matter. Their priorities are all about the money. She might help Mccain smash what's left of the lower/middle/working class further and dragging more people into wars for oil but as far as more abuse of religion for control fear goes, most of that is already done.
You have to understand that these are really only symptoms of what is wrong with the Democratic Party in general. If Obama had been a true progressive/liberal populist for the past 4 years in his Senate term and had not sold his base out and pandered to the rightwing, the attacks against Obama on who was his religious leaders would have been irrelevant as he would have working class issues to campaign on. And if he had those issues to campaign on, he would most likely be going on the offensive rather than playing defensive because currently, he is running more on empty. I cannot speak for all Hillary supporters or even all Nader supporters. However, the fact remains that Obama should have seen this coming a long time ago if he was going to run for president. Now, having seen both Hillary and Obama, both their backgrounds are controversial and the GOP would have done the same thing to Hillary as they're doing to Obama although I don't know if Hillary is as controversial as Obama. As for me, I'm voting for Nader because of the important issues like I said and if that qualifies me as a far leftist, so be it. The American people really want a leftist government for a change after decades of the "conservative" ideology bankrupting America all the way. Obama gave a feeling that it was coming during the primaries and effectively labelled Clinton pro-Bush. However, his flip-floping to the rightwing and going on rightwing shows and allowing himself to be bullied into more submission to the rightwing is what convinced me that Obama will do nothing to stand up to rightwing bullies and hence, I checked out Nader and Mckinney and found out that I had nothing to lose. I may live in South Carolina which will certainly go Mccain but I wouldn't have been any different even if I did live in a "swing state". The party needs a long term R-E-P-A-I-R first and foremost. Get that done and then you can complain about Nader, Hillary, or whatever you want to blame for the GOP getting the election yet again.
"The American people really want a leftist government for a change after decades of the "conservative" ideology bankrupting America all the way. "
Americans by and large are conservative. If they were really as liberal as you claim both McCain and Obama would be lurching to the Left. I dont see ant inclination of that, starting with either the 'wars' or socio-economic issues.
"Americans by and large are conservative."
Then you're implying that CA and NY are "conservative". Sure, maybe the rural areas but even then not necessarily because they happen to vote Republican. Are you trying to tell me that Americans love getting sold out on the economic front and lied into unneeded costly wars?
" If they were really as liberal as you claim both McCain and Obama would be lurching to the Left."
No. The Republicans motivate their social "base" to identify with them while making sure that their real base, the economic elites, are given their goods. Most Democrats, on the other hand, believe in some corporate written polls and don't even try to stand up for what they claim to believe in. Obama had no business selling his base out and trying to "appease" his opposition's base even as the public made it very clear these past 4 years that we are all sick and tired of the bankrupt "conservative" ideology and would highly welcome liberalism for a change. Moderate, swing, and independent voters are seeing Obama more as an opportunist and a coward than reaching out to all. And this is the same thing that happened to Gore and Kerry. If you're going to settle for some half-baked "conservative" such as Hillary or Obama, you might as well vote Mccain and get the full deal and get it over with it. The Democratic Party has been sticking to the LOSER's handbook for this decade and even before that and must now discard it. Running to the rightwing is NOT running to the "center".
NY and CA alone won't be able to win an election, right?
The rest of America isn't only just conservative, in many of the fly-over states the general attittude is so racist and conservative that it would be branded as "extreme right-wing" or Neo-Nazi where I live. In Europe, that is.
I am amazed that some federal states on the coasts haven't tried to secede lately, quite frankly. That country of yours is bascially so conservative (no, wrong word: Basically fascist would be the right one, they don't really believe in a true democracy, these dudes) that I am surprised that it still is one country.
---"Are you trying to tell me that Americans love getting sold out on the economic front and lied into unneeded costly wars?"
Uh .. yeah. I am. The moment Bush and his Dick were re-elected 4 years ago that became abundantly clear dont you think ?
I said 'by and large', in other word a majority of Americans. The coasts tend to be more liberal but that doesnt mean much.
----"If you're going to settle for some half-baked "conservative" such as Hillary or Obama, you might as well vote Mccain and get the full deal and get it over with it."
This is B.S. If any voter follows this line of thought they must be really .. how do i put it mildly ... stupid.
Tell you what. Look up George Lakoff and framing on google and learn what framing is all about. You can't blame the voters when the party has yet to show that it is what it claims to be. There are indeed a lot of staunch "conservatives" as there are staunch "liberals". However, to win a swing voter, you don't pander to the opposition and expect to score. It never worked and never will, PERIOD
By the way, here's the most recent article from George Lakoff for you:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/11-11
"You can't blame the voters when the party has yet to show that it is what it claims to be."
Sure you can. There are alternatives. Voters can support Nader, Greens, etc but they are considered the lunatic fringe by the Dems and Pukes. The voters can definitely try NOT to choose between 2 conservative parties but yet they do .. consistently and persistently. How do you explain that?
Maybe a few, but you might want to get out of under whatever stone Obamaites are hiding under, and smell the coffee, or any other of your fav. wake up smell:
There are still a small minority of Americans who have the integrity not to vote for a war monger of either of the two war parties.
http://almusawwir.org/resistance/
Here are a few of Obama's friends,supporters relatives and preachers,just 10 reasons NOT to vote for Obama.A Hillary supporter not voting for anyone.
William Ayers - American Terrorist
Raila Odinga - Cousin, Radical Islamist
Raul Reyes - Columbian Terrorist
Antonio Rezko - Muslim Slum Lord
Professor Khalidi - Muslim Terrorist Supporter
Reverend Wright - Racist Muslim Supporter/Preacher, Anti-American
Reverend James Meeks - Racist
Reverend Louis Farrakhan - Racist Nation of Islam / Faux Preacher
Reverend. Jesse Jackson - Racist - Anti-Semetic
Nadhmi Auchi - Muslim Billionaire
Sohaib Abassi - Muslim Millionaire
When you say "radical", do you mean as radical as your criminal Rep government has been acting for the past 8 years?? Like just invading other countries on a whim and because they want their oil and because your government is made up of people too ignorant to get any job more sophisticated than man a check-out counter in Wall-Mart and such?
What do you mean by "anti-semitic"? Critizising Israel's policy vs the Palestinians? That's not anti-semitic, because in that case, half of the Israeli press would be anti-semitic. See haaretz.com, one of the most influential papers in Israel.
Are they antisemitic Jews? Oh, you don't know they even exist, right??
Or, to be nice, are you merely too uneducated to know anything about Israel and the Middle East, being obviously Right-Wing, it's not surprising, so you're just repeating some standard phrases you are told to post, which is what I sense? You personally have no f***ing clue, right? Your post sure suggests you don't.
Or else you are one of these many right-wing American Jews who think that they can buy US politics: I hope that one day you'll be proved wrong. And let me tell you that quite a few Jews around the world are very tired of you and your "influence" as well. It has only created mayhem in Israel and around the world.
You don't know enough about anything to get near a keyboard.
Posts like yours reaffirm the commitment of this lifelong socialist to make an exception and vote for the Democrat Obama, against all my best instincts. There must be something good about the guy when he inspires so much hatred and goofiness in the right's propagandists.
Exactly!
Is McCain-Palin hiding racism behind Palin's skirt?
It seems the amount of racist and crypto-racist behavior has flooded America after hurricane Palin.
I don't see any evidence that Mccain/Palin are racists. You need to put that issue behind you and get back to the issues that really matter the most such as the economy, war in Iraq, healthcare, environment, etc ... Nobody on this forum is a racist and just because someone didn't vote for Obama does not mean that he or she is a racist.
By the way, some people are mistaking Atheist as a rightwinger. Actually, she's not that kind having seen her postings.
Here's a perfect example:
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From an earlier topic "Society of the Incarcerated"
atheist May 21st, 2008 9:25 pm
I love you people !!!! If this article had been published on a web site that attracts the general public, the vast majority of comments would have been "Who cares about prisoners ? Hang 'em !" The intelligent responses here make me want to cry.
The vast majority of inmates are released sooner or later, and then we all have to deal with the aftermath of incarceration. Education and rehabilitation benefits ALL of us.
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And here's another example:
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new
atheist August 13th, 2008 10:42 pm
I'm just not getting this anti-meat campaign here. Stop eating factory-farmed meat, I wholeheartedly agree. There's no sense in submitting animals to such cruelty because we only want to pay $x per pound instead of $2x or $3x. Plus there's the health factor.
But farms that treat their animals well and feed them good food produce meat this is good for you. My sister raises her own chickens and they are happy and healthy, well-fed, run freely, and pretty much do as they please. The ones that aren't egg layers are ultimately humanely slaughtered.
We are omnivores, let's not forget that. Lots of other animals eat meat, so obviously meat eating isn't inherently unhealthy. If you don't want to eat meat for whatever reason, that's fine. I can't stand mushrooms. But please don't think that you have a right or even a responsibility to tell responsible meat eaters to stop. Then you're like a suffocating religion.
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Thanks atheist for understanding the 50 year plight of small farmers being forcefully taken over by Big Agri. Before factory farms, meat was of the grass-fed pasture raised type. It was later that petroleum manufactured corn feed with anti-biotics to suppress the side effects of corn seeds causing e-coli in cows as cows were never meant to be force fed corn feed.
I did find her comments on the foreclosure issue kind of questionable. Not everyone is fortunate and lenders can be crooks too. This crisis is the fault of both the homebuyers who wanted to misuse their homes as cash cows for profit, move in and out as quickly as possible, and the lenders who wanted fast business. Also, suing ain't always easy and lawyers these days are more expensive than at any other time since like most professions, their's has been privatized.
Update: Atheist is not mean to those folks who were tricked by bad lenders.
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atheist May 21st, 2008 8:22 pm
I have purchased several homes and am currently in the middle of refinancing. I'm well aware of how difficult it can be to buy property and select a mortgage and so I am very sympathetic to those people who truly did not understand what they were getting themselves into. I've had mortgage brokers agree verbally to rates and loan amounts and then send paperwork with entirely different figures. And having to pay for an appraisal for each broker/lender puts poor people at an even greater disadvantage, they are likely stuck with one broker/lender who knows he has no competition.
However, I suspect that most of the recent foreclosures are due to greedy people who wanted to make some quick $$$ on what they thought were sure-thing real estate markets. And they screwed up because the property values dropped. I do not want to bail these people out !!! I pray that Congress figures out a way to identify them and exclude them from any bailout program.
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I realize that I probably was a bit too rough on her and do apologize for the misunderstanding.
Palin is a bridge to nowhere.
A very expensive one at that.
Cindy, Sarah, Hillary, and Michelle are having lunch.
Cindy says, "Well, I don't tell many people this, but as a result of
all his suffering my husband can now heal the sick with a touch of his
hand."
Hillary says, "How interesting! My husband has been working on global
poverty issues so much, he can now feed a multitude with a few loaves
and fishes."
Michelle says, "That's wonderful! You know that commercial that the
Republicans ran with Barack parting the Red Sea? Well, we couldn't
help but laugh when we saw it - Barack has overcome so many obstacles
that he really can part bodies of water with a wave of his hand, we
didn't think anyone else knew!"
Sarah says, "So? My daughter had an Immaculate Conception!"
for some interesting commentary from the good folks of alaska, go to craig's list, 'alaska' and head to the 'politics' discussion......
i have written a couple of times to common dreams about our comments not being in chronological order...makes it difficult to follow the comments on the comments...haven't had a response yet....
Yeesh, that discussion group is downright freakin' scary. Someone took me to task for stereotyping uneducated Palin/McCain supporters but I couldn't come near to the utter stupidity I found in five minutes on that site. These are the people we are fighting, my friends. Bigotted idiots without the sense to even vote against their own demise. Flag-waving simpletons with no comprehension of the mess they are in. Loud-mouthed windbags who think talking football would be better with McCain than Obama, so he's got their vote. Totally brainwashed Rush/O'Reilly repeaters with absolutely no ideas, intelligence or curiosity of their own. My apologies to everyone on this site whose intellect I have demeaned - we are all geniuses next to that slice of American life (shudder). Check it out, McCain supporters, and see who your fellow travelers are...
Bush-Cheney's Third Term is McCain-Palin. The names have been chanced to protect our innocence.
The press is obliging its masters and dutifully crowning the next leaders of our country (it's not a nation anymore).
Welcome to the Democratic Socialist State of Amerika. What is waiting in the wings to happen will make Germany of the '30s look like a liberal and progressive nation, protecting the rights of all citizens.
We will be getting the leaders we deserve - McCain and Palin. Just look at the majority of undereducated citizens flocking to their banner of fear and exclusiveness. They actually believe those critics pointing out the falsehoods and innuendos of these candidates are 'picking on' these real nice people.
As others have advised - learn the horst wessel and learn to give one arm salutes and do the goosestep. That may not even be enough to save your bacon. More than a few acquaintances are quietly moving what's left of any retirement and savings overseas, bit by bit. November 5 will see a stream of people becoming ex-pats that will increase as the corporate fascists consolidate their power under the new 4th Reich.
But I could be wrong !
What you point out is not a "Democratic Socialist State". Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland are Democratic Socialist States and their elections are much more democratic than ours. You must mean "National Socialist State", what Germany had.
atheist,
No, I'm ticked off because I suspect you're a racist. My black friend Doug here in Winston-Salem opined this morning that most of the political discourse we're hearing these days is a mask for the fact that a white person often doesn't like someone simply because he or she is a person of color.
Obama has many positive attributes apparent to almost anybody, so why wouldn't this be a likely thought? First, he has some "decency," to use Doug's word. So did Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. Ronald Reagan?-- don't think so. Charm, yes, but decency? Remember Iran-Contra and Oliver North?
Obama is a good listener-- a very fine trait. He's been known to answer critical blogs on his own website (anybody can have one there, incidentally). I see this route as much more productive than the negative, unfocussed nature of most of the present discussion (Sarahsteria?). Please join me in trying to convince Barack Obama-- the most viable presidential candidate in decades-- not to create a new quagmire in Afghanistan, probably leading to a coalescing of all of our wars into
world holocaust, with the added argument that our problems at home now demand our undivided attention and finance.
I wouldn't say atheist was a racist just because she didn't vote for Obama. Now, since I'm neutral on Obama vs Hillary, I will say this. Regardless of which candidate were to win the nomination, one thing was already clear. The media and the GOP would continue to create a divide between the Hillary and Obama voters. Earlier in the primaries, there was speculation in some states that Hillary won because the otherwise Republican voters batted for her while in others Obama won because of the GOP voters as well. It is unclear whether Hillary or Obama would have been better. That certainly will be heavily debated and may very well split the party if Obama loses come November. I did come across atheist's posts and she supported Hillary and was looking forward to Democrats getting 16 years in the White House. I'm guessing that she might have been looking forward to a Hillary/Obama ticket or Hillary/someVP ticket that would last. I understand completely that a lot of Hillary supporters were upset that Hillary didn't get the nomination and the same thing would have happened with the Obama supporters if Obama hadn't won the nomination.
Having said all this and having read transcripts of Hillary supporters campaigning for Mccain showing pure personal animosity, all I can say is that this was a childish attack. I did not vote in the primaries because I did not trust either Obama nor Hillary but preferred Kucinich and Paul. Had Hillary won, I would have already planned to vote for Nader already. However, since Obama won, I waited to see how he would campaign but was disappointed to see him flip-flopping just like Mccain to the rightwing despite the fact that at a time such as this when the country is in utter shambles, America strongly prefers progressive/liberal leadership over "conservative" recklessness. I'm all for 3rd parties at this point because regardless of who wins this election, I see no hope for any recovery from the extreme damage the rightwing "conservatives" have done to the country.
As for Obama being a good listener, yeah maybe if you're referring to Obama listening more to Wall $treet and Bill O'LIEly over the people which is what has been the case so far. I see no evidence of his intentions to stand up to rightwing bullies once in office, not that I would have expected Hillary to be any different.
Doug's point from Winston-Salem is spot on
The only thing that Obama and any candidate running for elections will listen to, is that unless s/he changes his/her position - you will not vote for him. The rest, "decency" "responding" etc. - those are pointless. A kinder gentler face on the killing machine is pointless, and an insult to the victims of US imperialism.
Tell Obama that unless he renounces all war against the people of the world, you will not vote for him - and get the millions of hoodwinked so-called progressives to do the same, in the next month, raise Nader and/or McKinney's poll numbers to 7-10% - and then he will be forced to listen.
What you are suggesting is that people vote for him, and hope for the best - that is not how you build power, nor how you bring change. Obama is just another useless politician aiming to be the administrator of US imperialism, you owe him nothing.
http://almusawwir.org/resistance/
Would it were true, would it were true, but it isn't.
Funny, today in Fairfax, VA, Mccain/Palin had quite a few disgruntled "Hillary" voters and the campaigning was nothing about the issues other than drilling for more oil, dig up more coal, build more nukes, and nothing about conservation or even alternative renewables. The Obama/Biden ticket was not a whole lot better in Norfolk, VA. Obama spent more time reacting to Palin than going on the offensive. Like Mccain, Obama talks about plans but doesn't show his voting record to show that he did it. Even where he voted supposedly liberal/progressive, he never brings it up. I don't know how Hillary would have handled this campaign but I seriously doubt it would have been much more different though I doubt that she'd go overboard on religion or flip flop on oil drilling. She did vote against FISA for telcom but I'm not sure if she would have done that had she been the more likely nominee over Obama. I did get to read transcripts of how Obama, Hillary, Mccain, et al campaigned but I don't think there really is much of a difference in any of these candidates in both parties.
By the way, in case nobody noticed, in addition to religion, Big Military/Defense gave Obama more campaign contributions than either Hillary or Mccain earlier this year alone and probably lots thereafter. Is this why Obama is calling for nuking Pakistan and Afghanistan when that's a dumb idea? I don't know how far to the right of Mccain Hillary would have moved but the way Obama's going, I'm already feeling less regrets going Nader and am even giving Mckinney a look now that she too is on the ballot in South Carolina. A vote for Obama is a vote for Mccain and a vote for Mccain is a vote for Obama.
The first thing one does when one begins to think is to begin to distinguish. Here is seems that you have avoided this for some reason. Perhaps since you seem to feel that if you are not going to get what you think you want you are going to take your ball and go home or perhaps you have become accustomed to Republican rule.
Contrary to common belief even among the educated, (Aldous) Huxley and (George) Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think." Neil Postman, 1985
I may live in South Carolina but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily accustomed to Republican rule. Voting 3rd/Independent party is perfectly fine. I might have voted for Obama has Obama actually stood up to the rightwing bullies. That he didn't and that he accepts big money donations that dwarf Hillary's or even Mccain's was already a warning sign that Obama doesn't really intend to end the war. Looking further into Obama's voting record history, he's for continued spending on the Iraq war/occupation for oil, courtesy of borrowing the money from China until China hits the foreclosure switch of course. Moreover, he has flip-flopped just like Mccainso basically Obama has framed himself as being less open about his indirect support of the war unlike Hillary and Mccain who made it clear that they'll stay the course regardless. Not that I support Mccain or Hillary but as Bill would say "better to be strong and wrong than weak and right".
I wonder if 3rd Party voters have "thought it through" sufficiently to envision the McCain-Palin regime? Maybe James Dobson will become Minister of EDUKATION or be head of the Farenheit 451 brigades. Rush Limbaugh could be Minister of Information.
I believe Obama has a chance and I cannot use my vote to simply make a statement.
I wonder if you've thought through the merits of Democratic partisanship that gives the Republicans everything they want.
That's enough of a statement for me, thanks.
Well, I for one have and I see very little difference in the visions between Obama/Biden and Mccain/Palin. With the way Obama and now his wife are making a big deal about religion thinking that they're going to just win over evangelicals just like that, I don't see Obama standing up to the rightwing religious bullies such as Dobson. Moreoever, Obama's support of expanding Bush's faith-based bullshit from children to employment gives me no hope. It's basically a win-win for Dobson and a lose-lose for the rest of us. And don't forget that both tickets are going to spend big time on defense and empowering Big Brother. On privacy, Biden has proven to be the worst by siding with Big Media/Entertainment scumbags such as RIAA and MPAA against P2P. Privacy rights are already being shredded and Obama's pick of Biden doesn't make me feel comfortable. If Obama had picked Kucinich or even Hillary, who at this point looks "liberal" in pale comparison to Obama these days, I might have given Obama a slight chance.
To kind of paraphrase Justice John Paul Stevens of 2000, IT IS NOT CLEAR WHO WILL WIN THIS ELECTION OR EVEN WHAT THE NEXT FOUR YEARS WILL LOOK LIKE OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT IT WILL LIKELY GET WORSE. HOWEVER, IT IS CLEAR THAT THE LOSERS ARE ALREADY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
Did Joe McCarthy has a hand in the 1954 version of the pledge?
I liked the 60s and 70s version "...with liberty and justice for SOME".
And the Founding Fathers wanted Church and State to be separate...oh well don't confuse Sarah with the facts.
We will not simply get 4 more years of the same I think we will get much, much worse.
Obama is going to expand Bush's faith-based programs ! And he wants to spend $500 million to send kids to bible camps.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4281940.ece
Obama: "I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me, I submitted myself to his will, and dedicated myself to discovering his truth."
Honestly, this kind of talk scares me. It tells me that Obama is delusional. Mentally ill.
Question: What is your opinon of having students recite the Pledge of Allegience in schools?
Gov. Sarah Palin: If the Pledge of Allegience was good enough for the Founding Fathers,it is good enough for me.
FACT: The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, 125 years AFTER the founding fathers started the USA
I guess you can put lipstick on a pig, but you cant teach it to SHUT THE FUCK UP.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
You should have asked Obama the same question, I'll bet he would have gotten it wrong too. Very few people know the origin of the Pledge. Even fewer know that the god stuff was added in 1954.
Original Pledge:
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
After 1923 alteration:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
After 1954 alteration:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Very good, atheist.
Now the worms of laziness croak their memory loss.
Please, do not entertain their lack of historical research. There is a swamp here of self-ordained guardians to knowledge by revisionists only. Let them find their own curiosity.
Who cares if they don't?
Could you provide some links so that we can see more info on that history?
Democrats should brace for another defeat and more in the future.
The big problem is the Demacrats campain to convince voters to vote for them, the Republicans campain to win, there is a difference until the Democrats wakeup and change tactics they will always be second best at the polls.
They aren't asleep. It's in their genes.