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The Hidden Horrors of WikiLeaks’ Guantánamo Files
WikiLeaks’ latest revelations — secret military files on almost all of the 779 prisoners held in the US “war on terror” prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba — are already causing a stir, and for good reason, as they resuscitate a story that appears to have been forgotten in the last few years: how, in their rush to prove themselves tough and vengeful in response to the 9/11 attacks, the most senior officials in the Bush administration not only discarded international laws and treaties including the Geneva Conventions and the UN Convention Against Torture, but also threw out safeguards designed to protect innocent people from being wrongly imprisoned in wartime.
Some of the key discoveries in the Guantánamo files are the documents on the 201 prisoners released between 2002 and summer 2004, which cover new ground, as the US military has never publicly released any of this information before. For the other 578 prisoners, information has at least been revealed through the release of the government’s allegations against the prisoners, and the transcripts of the tribunals and review boards used to assess their significance, which were released in 2006 (with follow-ups in the years since), but for these 201 prisoners, many of the stories are being related for the very first time. These are mostly dispiriting revelations about how children as young as 14 and old men in their 80s were rounded up and sent to Guantánamo, joining farmers, taxi drivers and unwilling Taliban recruits — hordes of the innocent or the insignificant, whose stories help to confirm the folly of Guantánamo.
Just as significant, however, are the stories of the majority of the other prisoners — the nearly 400 others released, and most of the 171 still held. Understanding their stories generally requires more effort, as the allegations marshalled against them seem to prove what a threat they are — until, that is, the sources of these allegations are investigated, and are revealed, time and again, as very dubious indeed.
Although JTF-GTMO, the Joint Task Force at Guantánamo, responsible for creating these files, has done a good job of creating the illusion of coherent intelligence dossiers, an illusion is all it is. On close inspection, the files are full of lies and distortions, with certain figures appearing over and over again. They include “high-value detainees” like Abu Zubaydah, waterboarded 83 times and held for four and a half years in secret CIA prisons, and Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, tortured in Egypt until he falsely confessed that there were connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein (used to justify the invasion of Iraq in March 2003), who was finally sent back to Libya to be murdered.
There are also others, held only in Guantánamo, who are known as notoriously unreliable informants, and who, whether through the use of torture, coercion, or bribery (the promise of better living conditions) have repeatedly told lies about their fellow prisoners. These have been seen through, generally by some official figures at Guantánamo, and also by judges in the prisoners’ habeas corpus petitions, who have recognized their baleful influence, and have often moved to dismiss their testimony, damaging or even eviscerating the government’s cases.
There are dangerous men in Guantánamo, of course — some, if not all of the 14 ‘high-value detainees,” including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, who arrived in Guantánamo from secret CIA prisons in September 2006, some of the ten others transferred to Guantánamo from secret prisons in September 2004, plus a handful of others. Essentially, these are the 36 men recommended for trials by the Obama administration’s Guantánamo Review Task Force, which spent the whole of 2009 analysing the prisoners’ cases.
As for the rest of the 171 men still held, 47 of whom are being held indefinitely without charge or trial by President Obama on the basis that they are too dangerous to release, even though no evidence exists that can be used in court, these documents reveal how the distortions engendered by Guantánamo continue to erode all hope of a rational settlement to the vexed question of when Guantánamo will actually close.
When innocent people are labelled as “low risk” detainees, and foot soldiers are labelled as “medium risk” or “high risk,” as they are in these official documents, the proper outcome — that prisoners should either be charged or released, and the abomination that is Guantánamo should be closed as soon as possible — is lost in a miasma of misplaced fear.
Politically, it appears that President Obama has decided that Guantánamo is too toxic to touch. That is a disgrace, as it shows him to be a man lacking in firm principles, after all his fine talk about the importance of justice and the law, when he was a Senator, and it is also a tragedy for America.
I won’t hold my breath hoping for enlightenment, but these documents released by WikiLeaks deserve to be read widely, and to be acted upon decisively by Americans who care about justice and the rule of law, because, with Guantánamo still open, they reveal the unjustifiable triumph, from beyond the electoral grave, of the Bush adminstration, whose actions, whatever their supposed justification, took the country to a wretched and disturbing place that still needs to be abandoned and repudiated as a thoroughly unacceptable aberration from the principles on which the United States was founded.
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73 Comments so far
Show AllTorture is now a point of "discussion."
High risk, low risk,medium risk, national security risk....and, oh, my, SHOCKING revelations about the US TORTURE PROGRAM--
The only thing that matters is that the US violates international law and becomes a nation--HAS BECOME a nation, utterly bereft of any moral mooring--
We are not, in any sense of the word, benefiting humanity.
The US tortures, not only suspected terrorists, but wives and children of suspected terrorists--sometimes ON FILM so the torture can be replayed for the husband/father/mother...nothing like seeing your shrieking child with a mop handle shoved into his rectum by patriotic soldiers to soften you up for "intelligence."
Salon has ceased linking to its own story, but: http://narus.info/?p=587 will get you started.
It's as bad as can possibly be imagined.
We rape children.
Nothing else we say or do until ALL such behavior is stopped and the perps punished matters in the slightest.
But tell that to the poverty-stricken, the homeless, and the middle class terrified that either circuses or bread might be interrupted for a moment--
Thank you. Yes, it is absolutely appalling how horrifically evil this country has become. What is even more appalling, to me, is the utter apathy and indifference of most Americans to this fact. Poll after poll on this subject shows that over 60% of Americans are quite fine with the U.S. torturing people, just so long as they are brown-skinned foreigners who are undoubtedly "threatening our way of life" by their very existence. Over 60% is a MAJORITY of Americans, FYI.
Once we become a full-blown fascist dictatorship in plain view (right now we are a fascist dictatorship, but still hiding behind the facade of "democracy"), the number of Americans who will be "Good Germans" will absolutely shock you. Or, maybe it won't.....
Leave while you can. It only goes downhill from here.
Has become? This is the US from day one. Genocide, Slavery, KKK, and just way too damn many things to list. This didn't just start after 9/11. talk to any Nam vet you can and listen to what they did to the people there. Grenades thrown in huts for the hell of it, rapings, slaughter of villages.....
The US had morality only in our heads. In our white heads.
Sorry to let you know.
But the US is just and evil empire overthrowing other countries and installing brutal dictators for decades.
You took the words right outta my mouth. It's amazing how the Creator balances things out..this country has always saved it's worst crimes against humanity for people of color, including those supposedly citizens, but now, their bloodlust has turned it's sights on all ethnic persuasions, they don't care what color you are, if you are not of the elite, you are expendable. So it's interesting that after centuries of whites watching the trials and tribulations of black people and others, and thinking that their skin color made them safe, NOW THEY SHOULD KNOW THE TRUTH. The govt doesn't give a f**k about them either.
QUOTE -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, who arrived in Guantánamo from secret CIA prisons in September 2006, UNQUOTE
The only people behind 9/11 were Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld -- and a host of others
willing to commit treason.
Could anyone still believe this latest US fairytale?
I am currently a non-consensual human guinea pig in what I believe is the United States Governments' COVERT, ongoing, over 50 year MK-ULTRA mind control pogrom. I am also a military veteran, a law-abiding, supposed US citizen who apparently has no human rights the CIA/NSA/DoD are bound to recognize or respect. I wrote the below letter to the UN Human Rights Council, amongst other entities, to bring light to an on-going crime against humanity that exists RIGHT now in the United States--although the existence of it has in the past and will probably continued to be denied officially by the United States Government but there is a multitude of anecdotal evidence and untold numbers of citizens like me who are daily victims of and prisoners of NSA/CIA/DoD's Covert use of us as Mk-ULTRA mind control experimentation & directed energy weapons testing. I have inlcluded links to several online sites that explore this topic at length. Although, I'm sure some will be tempted to write me off as "mentally unstable or paranoid delusional"--as students of history, WE all should know that the US has a long history of covert, illegal and amoral non-consensual testing and experimentation on both domestic and foreign human guinea pigs. I am but one. If you research, there are many more like me. I just happen to be very outspoken and I will continue to be so until this crime against humanity is ERADICATED permanently. It is my opinion, that ANY government that allows this type of grave, egregious and sinister testing to go continue for over 50 years -- ceases to be a legitimate government and has traversed into the role of criminal and thus illegitimate. If the American populace was REALLY aware of what so-called intelligence agencies like CIA & NSA are doing behind closed doors with either the enthusiastic or tacit approval of silently knowing members at the highest levels of this government--I believe there would be revolts far and wide. Again, I will continue to speak out--I am a law-abiding citizen, I am a military veteran and I am PISSED that the US govt-FOR WHATEVER reason, has decided it HAS THE RIGHT to totally invade my privacy and my MIND with 24/7 voice to skull transmissions, thought implants, remote neural monitoring and mind reading technology! The US govt has picked up, in effect, where Adolf Hitler left off! And all hiding in plain sight. My wish is either have this technology banned completely, destroyed or die exposing this country's (and others) covert use of it against citizenry. I didn't start this but since the US govt has declared war on me and my personhood & humanity; I plan on fighting with the only weapon I have--my voice and my ability to call attention to this egregious, hypocrital lapse of morality by the United States Government!
This bizarre but true journey began when I moved into an apartment owned by a late 50'ish to early 60-ish caucasian woman who presented herself as Janet L. Beumer/Ellen Coleman (could be aliases) at 2821 West Blvd., Los Angeles,Ca. 90016 in November 2008 but didn't become glaringly apparent to me until Oct 2010. That is when I became a target of obvious directed energy weapons physical and aural 24 hour harassment by what I and others believe is a covert, top secret ONGOING Illegal testing of voice to skull technology, remote neural monitoring, synthetic telepathy, 'mind reading' technology, 24 hour monitoring/surveillance. For me, this all began as what I thought was a simple noise issue between an upstairs neighbor and myself in Los Angeles, it escalated into something so bizarre and obscure, that most americans have never heard of this type of technology and probably don't believe that the US govt has the capability to develop it, let alone use it--but that is the case--there is evidence that this technology has been in existence for at least 30 years! There may be RIGHT now in the US, hundreds of thousands of my fellow americans who are also being subjected to this top secret, covert harassment but who also suffer in silence because of the nature of the technology--any attempts as complaining or calling attention to our plight are unfortunately, so far, met with dis-belief and a general dismissal of us as "schizophrenic or just mentally impaired"---I assure you, for ME this is NOT the case---I have NO question, that my hearing 24 hour constant "chatter of pre-recorded, looped voices" is TECHNOLOGICAL, not PSYCHOGICAL--the US govt has a long history of covertly using citizens (both domestic and foreign) as human guinea pigs in research for both medical and military applications and technologies. Directed Energy Weapons IS JUST THAT SORT OF technology! Please read about my experience and perhaps cover this ONGOING crime against humanity that is THE BIGGEST CRIME THAT HAS YET TO BE TOLD--HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT!
http://www.ripoffreport.com/civil-rights-violators/janet-l-beumer-or-el/janet-l-beumer-or-ellen-colem-ef87a.htm
Some More Links Re: Directed Energy Weapons Technology & Uses:
http://www.buergerwelle.de/pdf/akwei.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultradocs.htm
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=5305386
http://www.raven1.net/v2s-kohn.htm
http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/bioethics/110228/default.cfm?id=13288&type=flv&test=0&live=0 (Presidential Committe on the Study of BioEthics Issues Forum in Feb 2011--Public Comments which include several Targeted Individuals Describing some of THE EXACT SAME TACTICS being used against them! I do not know any of these citizens but we SHARE the same experiences because THE US GOVT is testing this technology COVERTLY and ILLEGALLY on ALL OF US)
http://www.surveillanceissues.com
http://www.areyoutargeted.com
http://www.peoplezapper.com/?p=4
http://www.yosults?search_query=remote+neural+monitoring&aq=0
http://www.subversiveelement.com/MK_Psychotronic_weapons.html
http://www.raven1.net/mcf/orli-01.htm -Lawsuit brought by Canadian Citizens Against the US Govt for MK-ULTRA human experimentation
http://www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm-- De-classified Mk-ULTRA documents
http://hubpages.com/hub/Clinton_apologized_on_behalf_of_Gov_for_forced_MK_Ultra_Mind_Control_Experiments_on_Children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfAhXQhDfR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_jS21rHNzY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC0zNuB5rs8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mg2RZH0oNU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG9qppZjdSE&feature=related
MB2: I am sorry for your ordeal, and while I know nothing of the technology you relate, I do know that American psychologists have studied how to enact torture that runs just short of organ failure. And I do know that Naomi Klein began her seminal work on Disaster Capitalism by first relating how experts were hired who knew how to break minds. Little would surprise me about our government, a totally ILLEGITIMATE government as seen in the extent to which it has sold out on the genuine interests of We, The People.
There are two others who post on C.D. who have experienced events somewhat parallel with your own. One posts as "Echoes 4444" and the other as "Born Free Man," although his experience was more confined to stalking.
A government that invests more in armaments than the uplift of its own citizens has crossed the rubicon into something greater than spiritual bankruptcy (as Martin Luther King put it). It is starkly EVIL, and is putting on display for all the world to see, what absolute power can mean in the way of absolute forms of corruption. To torture? To kill without remorse? To steal from the poor to give to the rich? To debase the Constitution and Bill of Rights? To once again block reproductive rights from women. And on and on.
Can anyone doubt that karma is being created of the worst sort? Those of us in this forum who have put time, energy, and conscience to work in resisting these outcomes have less to answer for. I remember asking survivors of Hurricane Andrew if they noticed that relatives who played fast and loose with ethics were more directly harmed by the storm than those who sought to live just and lawful lives. From my small sampling, I received validation.
These ARE times that test men and women's souls!
Extremely well-said. Karma, indeed. We are experiencing the first bitter winds. When the full-blown karmic shit-storm hits this country - and it will, have no doubts of that - it is going to be absolutely horrific for the people of this country. Which, unfortunately, means all of us here on CD as well. We think things are looking bad now - torture/rendition, endless illegal wars draining our treasury, a Plutocracy that is vacuuming up every dime from the lower/middle classes, enabled by their paid whores in government who continue to pass legislation that further takes away from we working Americans to the benefit of the rich, declining education, healthcare, social services, increasing foreclosures, declining infastructure, decimating unions and workers rights and wages, outsourcing American jobs overseas, etc, etc, Etc, ETC - but we ain't seen nothin' yet.
Gonna get really, really bad....
"...Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks..."
Huh? — I though Cheney did that. ????
The answer to your question lies in the word which precedes mastermind. Until an actual and honest investigation takes place concerning the events that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001 then KSM can never be considered the true brains behind those attacks.
I would venture this sentence is the sole reason for the article...
not that I agree with the sentence, as I agree with you...
to reinforce your position, this single sentence subconsciously reinforces, within the mind of the reader, the official story, which is the whole point of the article...
it accepts, at face value, that 911 was planned and executed by foreigners, which changes the debate around subsequent 'United States' action from right vs. wrong, to one of implementation...
a common tactic...
I place apostrophes around 'United States' to indicate that I mean those currently manipulating, and those masquerading as, the United States government...
that there is no actual United States government...by the people, for the people...
I'd also add to these comments questioning 9/11, this question --
How many CIA presidents have we had now?
Obama?
After the CIA killed Kennedy, all of the presidents have been controlled by them.
They are our real government - the figureheads are just puppets.
Earnest of otherwise this does not matter any more.
The reality is so much a done deal that stories like this are merely grist to the media mill, which means we can doubt the earnest and begin to suspect otherwise.
The reality is that USA is in the hands of demented crooks and has been for a long time.
So enough of the spectacular extremes now. The messy and malignant US mediocrity must be dealt with.
Which is that on aggregate the USA is a failed cultural entity.
Change must and will come. The longer the USA dallies the more extremely painful it will be for everyone but most excessively for US citizens. Along with all others they will be the ones dying as the cause.
The end is now clear. If there is a winner it cannot be the USA. Not only does it not deserve to but if it does win the earth will not survive for the US understanding of winning will kill Earth.
.
The Earth will survive. The PEOPLE will not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that the planet will survive --
keep turning -- or otherwise.
The damage that patriarchy/capitalism has done is so extreme as to cause upheavals so disruptive that it may not survive.
One minor example is tht the dams and reservoirs built by our Army Corps
Engineers over the last 50 years are impacting the rotation of the earth.
Global Warming is not only bringing chaotic weather, it is increasing the number of storms, hurricanes, cyclones, tornadoes -- and their intensity.
Global Warming is increasing the number of earthquakes -- and their intensity.
Earthquakes in turn increase volcanic activity.
Japan -- where America began nuclear war -- somehow decided that despite their suffering and the fact that Japan is an earthquake-prone island -- the thing to do was to base all their energy needs on nuclear reactors.
Here in the US, we have more than 100 nuclear reactors -- about two in every state --
some in California built on earthquake faults -- and two in Ohio on Lake Erie, a source of drinking water.
It takes a minimum of 6 months to properly shut down a nuclear reactor.
Back in Japan, which is spreading radiation across the ocean and on to us,
the radiation has been leaking into the Pacific -- and the explosion in the #3
reactor blew the roof off, shooting rods and rod storage racks into the air --
radioactive rods were found two miles from the reactor.
These radioactive rods are 12 feet long -- 1/2 inch wide -- and even a few minutes
of exposure to them will bring death -- not immediate death -- but hair falling out,
lesions over body kind of death.
Patriarchy's exploitation of nature is insanity -- it is suicidal.
It is an attack on ourselves -- on humanity and the planet.
And what equal insanity keeps Americans from fighting for the planet?
Conscience, you've just made me think brand new about this. I'm always refuting "our planet will survive" nihilists. I point out that there is no assurance the biota will survive as we are changing every known life support system to the detriment of all life and because everything evolved under very specific and stable conditions. I always kind of corrected them that the planet will survive, but life in the universe, after capitalist annihilation, I'm not so sure.
Even though I knew about the dams changing our planetary path, I guess I considered that as being similar to various rearrangements of ice/water over millenia. Maybe that was gradual enough that our path stayed the same? I don't know space physics -- does a different planetary path change gravity and/or eventually cause the planet to run into something?
The planet will survive.
The idea that the planet's fate is tied to humanity's fate is just gross human exceptionalism, similar to American exceptionalism.
Other species have overreached themselves before, and gone extinct as a result. If humans go extinct, we will just be another species that overreached, and were too stupid to stop the overreaching. Nothing special.
CONSCIENCE: Your conscience speaks to (and for) mine. Some can't handle the idea of "patriarchy" and prefer to label the harassment and rabid exploitation of nature as a rite of capitalism. Either way, it nets the same deadly effects.
Thank you for your post. My area is now under an extreme weather warning, and hovering in the background is the deadly tornado outbreak that mostly took aim at Alabama yesterday.
Someone in the forum asked how I could equate the science of weather/earth changes with the concept of karmic blowback. I stand on the authority of sages like Yogananda in making that analogy. There is a tragic poetic justice to the idea that the Red States got behind these illegal wars, were quick to believe the "enemy" was over there, and thought little of our military arsenal laying waste to towns and infrastructure (in Iraq & Afghanistan), while taking countless innocent lives.
Now as the South finds itself the recipient of nature's wrath, and thousands face the decimation of homes and local infrastructure, perhaps a morsel of compassion will arise in the wake of all this.
"Whatsoever you do unto the least of these, is done unto me." The web of life is sacrosanct. One tribe cannot poison, murder, slash, burn, and steal from another without reverberations boomeranging. Karmic blowback is underway, whether it's termed the "Revenge of Gaia" or otherwise.
Call me paranoid, but I don't believe the recent spate of
"natural" disasters is all that natural-I really believe it's a result of the US HAARP Project, which was profiled on Jesse Ventura's Conspiracy Theories. I also believe, as well as other targeted individuals, that HAARP is being used to disseminate the US govt's secret voice to skull transmissions to people like me who are targeted with this insidious constant electromagnetic pulsed microwave created "chatter". Don't take my word for it, research it.
Worthington says he will not be holding his breath for enlightenment on the Gitmo horror. Nor should anyone else. Unfortunately, Amerika is way past treading the slippery slope of authoritarianism; the nation has slid into that dark space where civil liberties are only available to the ruling elite.
Only radical action can turn the tide of what awaits the rest of us: chronic food and energy shortages, shredded social programs, sweatshop working conditions and harsh penalties for those who step out of line.
"in their rush to prove themselves tough and vengeful in response to the 9/11 attacks"
Seriously, it is the bullsh*t in the passing phrases as instanced above that try a person's soul.
How can one be vengeful for attacks which one brought about?
Any talk of our government's "response" to 9/11 falls nicely into the propagandistic trap set for all "reasonable" people: that our government was reacting to an event and not a aiding and abetting a false flag attack on American soil.
As Derrick Jensen has stated, the trick of propaganda is to slip premises past the public so that before one even begins to argue/discuss the "big lie" has already been confirmed and bolstered.
So who in the government knew who was responsible for secretly planting the "demolition bombs" and equipment in the towers and building 7.
Where do you find a demolition crew who would do that and not leak any info?
If the planes were just a cover to blame foreigners, it was brilliant up until one finds out that no plane hit building 7 and the other five buildings that were destroyed by the tower debris when they collapsed and it was also brilliant until the Truthers claim without any proof that a missile hit the pentagon as if you could hide a missile hitting the pentagon.
For bumbling the cover like that you would think they would have goofed the demolition with one mistake out of the million they would have been risking in such an implausible scheme.
But this theory takes all the bite out of the truth that they knew this was coming and they knew about the Saudi, Pakistan and and other CIA connections of the plot.
Since they knew it was coming they had no reason to get themselves blamed for it by jumping in and if they did jump in it would only tip off the hijackers.
And of course with an attack on the towers and the pentagon and one planned at the Capital and White House that didn't work, the towers didn't have to fall for war to happen even though the fires could not be put out... the air attack was plenty enough to invade and begin this 9/11 Moslem War for profit of the Racket.
There are no secrets according to Einstein but this one according to who?.
Who set it up, who all knew and who has kept it a secret?
Got proof?
And what if you are wrong and your story is convenient cover for the fact that they let it happen.
First, the Internet is a tool which you can use to educate yourself about the absurdity of the 9/11 official story.
I suggest you do so.
Secondly, if you don't believe that large secrets can be kept hidden from many people for long periods of time, you are a fool.
And that's being polite.
Sorry, there's no sense in arguing with you as you are lost.
Only a fool like you would use THE INTERNET as proof of your charges.
http://www.debunking911.com/
Read this study it and then prove it is wrong... I bet you can't SINCE your proof is calling THOSE who question your charges fools, so you are the FOOL
"Only a fool like you would use THE INTERNET as proof of your charges." and then you give a website to prove your point. Seems kind of strange to me.
Consider logic Mr. Glover:
Ask yourself why our government dragged it's feet and refused to do any investigation of the worst "terrorist" attack our country had ever seen. And then when they finally did pretend to investigate, they gave no authority and little funding for the commission so than only a very superficial investigation could be (and was) done. ($3M was initially appropriated for the 9/11 investigation while $110M was immediately appropriated for the Columbia investigation. Something is wrong there.)
Most of the evidence of the greatest crime in our history was quickly destroyed so that none of us - truthers and debunkers alike - can ever know what happened that day.
The only way we will ever know what really happened is if a real criminal investigation is performed, something that gets harder with every passing day. The fact that the debunkers want to delay while the truthers want an investigation leads me to believe that the debunkers are the ones who have something to hide.
You are makin this up.
I want a real investigation but I would not call you as a witness or suspect in uncovering hidden facts.
I would call Cheney first and then Bush.
I guess I am "kinda strange"... thanks
And the reason there isn't a REAL investigation is...?
Good call. - I have no facts to supply.
I would just like to see a real investigation so that the truth can be revealed, whatever it is.
But one thing I know for certain: The official conspiracy/coincidence theory offered by our government is so full of holes that it is not believable. For whatever reason, the truth of what happened on that day (and the events leading up to it) are being covered up and that is suspicious in itself. And into the void will come all sorts of theories to muddy the waters.
bystander said, I would just like to see a real investigation so that the truth can be revealed, whatever it is.
But one thing I know for certain: The official conspiracy/coincidence theory offered by our government is so full of holes that it is not believable. "
I agree. The official story is absurd and undoubtedly false but that doesn't mean that all the alternative suppositions are true.
If these buildings had collapsed in China, we'd be saying it was because of inferior material and slipshod construction due to corruption. Funny how that never seems to even be a consideration in this case but why not? Do we really believe that corners aren't seriously cut in construction projects in the USA?
Recall that Bush would not testify without having Cheney present --
which speaks to the kind of "conspiracy" which our founders commented upon --
Conspiracy between the President and Vice-President which they said would
call for a SUSPENSION of the administration!
Anyone who would look to either of these men for truth is naive --
As Cheney, himself, has told us often -- "We create the reality and you live it!!"
"Only fools never doubt" -- Shakespeare
"Truthers claim without any proof that a missile hit the pentagon"....
no they don't. some people who are most likely Trolls claim that. there is almost no evidence for that.
For a real scientific analysis, that is peer reviewed, and has not been "debunked" or countered within the scientific community, people can read Dr. Harrit's paper on nano-thermite. Dr. Harrit specializes in nano-chemistry at the University of Copenhagen. Download this paper:
http://bit.ly/giOtDy
The people at 911debunking are hacks, non-scientists, and come from the legions of popular mechanics "experts".
And lets not forget that over 1500 Architects and Engineers at www.ae911truth.org put their names, credentials and public reputations on the line to challenge the nonsense of the official story.
Those that support the official story almost always refuse public debates with the engineers and scientists from the 911 Truth movement.
What??? I am not a scientist, us poor debunkers... we are strang...e and it is lonely out here on the prairie..... but but well at least I don''t wish for the worst.
But I think a real investigation would be great but they just released the secrets of World War ONE, so get in line.
I don't believe that the facts show they let it happen is in any way shape or form "the official story".
So stop doing the truther trick of twisting what questioners ask.
There are some facts in life that may never be known.
There is no investigation because the war in its beginning was planned by the masters of war .... like BP who pushed England into fixing the facts for a share of the oil booty...
But if you got proof of the pre-wired made in the USA demolition, cough it up now... we can handle the truth.
If you are already bitten do you need more proof?
The presence of industrially produced nano-particles, that match the exact contents of super-thermite, mixed to homogeneous perfection, in a matrix perfectly suited for a highly exothermic reaction is your proof.
Did you read the paper?
The only places at the time that produced this kind of high explosive were the U.S. National Laboratories, which is well documented by Kevin Ryan here:
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf
excerpt:
"It turns out that explosive, sol-gel nano-thermites were developed by US government scientists, at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories (LLNL) (Tillitson et al 1998, Gash et al 2000, Gash et al 2002)."
And yes, if the "debunkers" are going to continue to make outrageous accusations against accredited scientists such as Dr. Harrit et al, then they had better respond appropriately within the arena of the scientific method. Otherwise, at best, they are ignorant dupes. At worst, they are complicit actors in a war crime.
i just did a quick internet search as directed, and plenty of "accredited scientists" don't think the paper has any credibility. It's never been subject to genuine peer review. Anyone who insists i "must" believe their absurd theory, is free to insist.
And FWIW, which is very little to any true believer who will not be denied, i don't believe the US government. But i don't believe the controlled demolition, nano-thermite theory.
And FWIW, 9-11 is NOT "the key" to everything, as is so often insisted. i, and millions of others, was well aware of the criminal horror that is the US government long before 2001. Ugly stupid criminal wars have been launched in escalating series since Grenada was staged to kill the "Vietnam Syndrome," as the architects of war called the revulsion felt by millions of US citizens at the US mass murder in SE Asia that was exposed. These monsters did NOT need to stage a controlled demolition of the Twin Towers in order to pull off their wars. This and many other "logical" arguments that get repeated ad nauseum are just historically stupid. We killed millions of indigenous people to found this country, we killed millions of Africans in slavery, we killed millions of Asian people in SE Asia, and we've killed millions in other well-documented historical TRUTHS that do not need elaborate theories to expose. Now we are killing millions again, SURPRISE!
Get over yourself.
"It's never been subject to genuine peer review."
You're simply wrong. The journal doesn't publish non peer reviewed papers. This is well documented. You can ask the journal yourself.
"But i don't believe the controlled demolition, nano-thermite theory"
I don't really care what you "believe", I care what can be proven by the scientific method. Facts don't lie. People like you do though.
"9-11 is NOT "the key" to everything"
I never said it was. It however is, according Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation. How much do you know about Operation Gladio? You should read up on it. Daniel Ganser, a political scientist from Switzerland who wrote the book "NATOs Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and terrorism in Western Europe" clearly documents dozens of false flag attacks by the CIA and other governments which were used to attack left parties, by blaming terrorist acts on them. This is very well documented.
What you fail to understand today is that false flag attacks are systemic behavior conducted by states to justify wars or to justify attacks on state enemies. It is a tactic of statecraft to engage in false flag terrorism. 911 is no exception.
For millions of Americans who are uneducated about covert and false flag attacks, and who might seriously rebel if they understood them, it is HIGHLY significant that 911 was used as THE reason for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, loss of Habeous Corpus, etc, ad infinitum.
Unfortunately, most leftists, and sadly even many radicals, are clueless about the history of false flag attacks, the use of psychological operations, etc. They are too busy thinking "systemically" (which is not bad) to see the forest through the trees.
When you can cite articles, multiple articles, in various respected scientific journals, by multiple authors, unaffiliated to each other, then come back and talk.
The journal you cite has been published 3 times. That is it. 3 issues, one issue in 2008, one in 2009, one in 2011. Each issue appears to have 3 articles each. The editorial board of consists of a list of names, not even full names, with no information about their affiliations, their qualifications.
"I don't really care what you "believe", I care what can be proven by the scientific method. Facts don't lie. People like you do though.
"
You apparently do not understand what the scientific method entails. Citing one article in one journal is not the "scientific method".
" never said it was. It however is, according Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation."
Lazy people randomly apply the Occam's Razor. And if you want to apply the Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that some people flew a plane into the towers, not some elaborate conpisracy .
"The journal you cite has been published 3 times."
Bentham has thousands of peer reviewed papers published. This is the peer reviewed paper I was referencing:
http://bit.ly/giOtDy
"You apparently do not understand what the scientific method entails. Citing one article in one journal is not the "scientific method". "
Unfortunately, it is you that seems confused. If one paper has definitive conclusions based on 2 years of research, and has been peer reviewed, the burden of disproof lies within the scientific community. Someone has to do the work to find that the data does not represent the conclusion reached. This has not happened.
I am a scientist. I understand it very clearly. The paper in question authored by Dr. Harrit et al, is proof of a high explosive residue present in all the dust of the WTC disaster. It is THE paper that has not been challenged publicly in the scientific community. The scientific method requires that other scientists, if they choose to challenge it, reproduce the experiments and prove a different conclusion. That has not happened yet. Indeed, other scientists are confirming their findings, and we hope to see them published soon.
Again, if you knew your history of false flag attacks (Read Ganser's book please), then you would understand that Occam's Razor does indeed apply. There is nothing simple in the official explanation about 911, including the science, including the breakdown of US air command, the inability to take out even one plane, and on and on and on. Are you aware that NIST has acknowledged free fall speed in the case of Building 7? That means explosives. There is no other explanation.
Dr Harrit has not shared his samples so there is no way for any other scientist to test his findings.
One of the "peer reviewers" immediately quit after the paper was published, the editor immediately quit saying she had been unaware of the paper, and another "peer reviewer" believes that all the passengers on all the planes are living on tropical islands with Swiss bank accounts. Oh wait he changed his theory, he now believes many of the passengers may have been summarily executed. Did i mention his theories about double planes and cloaking devices?
And again, i don't buy the government conspiracy theory in all its detail. But the fact of standing down NORAD is unrelated to belief in 10,000 tons of nano-thermite.
Occam's razor indeed. i'm not following any further down this rabbit hole.
"Dr Harrit has not shared his samples"
Where did you read that? URL please? That is a lie. In fact, the team that worked on this paper has willingly shared samples with other labs throughout the country.
"One of the "peer reviewers" immediately quit after the paper was published".
First off, this is a red herring and intended to distract people from the real science.
Second, this person did not review the paper. She was on the Bentham board of peer reviewers. The reason she left was political, as is all science associated with this topic. She never once commented on the actual science. As for your other wacky and conspiratorial allegations about the passengers and "cloaking devices", that is not just a red herring, but it's nonsense. You are clearly reading this garbage on sites with no scientific integrity, whose goal is to dissuade investigation into the actual science.
For those with open minds not subjected to hearsay and propaganda, listen to an interview with Dr. Harrit, the lead scientist on the thermite paper:
http://bit.ly/f0w4xf
"As for your other wacky and conspiratorial allegations about the passengers and "cloaking devices", that is not just a red herring, but it's nonsense."
Not nonsense at all. Dr David L Griscom, one of the "peer reviewers" of the Jones/Harrit paper, very definitely does assert these "wacky and conspiratorial allegations." Anyone can look him up.
And Marie-Paule Pileni, the editor of the Open Chemical Physics Review did indeed resign following publication of the paper, and denounced the publication of the paper, and denounced the journal itself. And further, the subsequent editor Lucio Frydman also resigned, and wrote this:
**************************************
"1) I was not editor of the journal at the time the manuscript you refer to was received and processed. I was not involved in its handling, and in no way do i agree with its conclusions. In fact i do not even know how the paper’s peer reviewing was handled – or if it was reviewed at all. The journal never wanted to disclosed this matter to me
2) What may be even worse – noone seems to be at the helm of this Journal. Months ago -simply after becoming acquainted with the article you mention, its possible misshandling, etc- i submitted my immediate resignation as editor to the open chemical physics journal. As you can see from the email below, my letter of resignation was received and acknowledged. However, i still appear as the journal’s editor – in fact i’m still receiving manuscripts to handle (which i naturally ignore).
To be frank, noone seems to be at the helm of this floundering ship…"
**************************************
And maybe you can cite the other scientific papers that have been published testing the samples that Dr Harrit has shared with others in the scientific community who have verified his theories about thousands of tons of nano-thermite bringing down the Twin Towers?
Rabbit hole...
Thanks for the details.
I'm glad that I did not waste my time chasing this down. I saw a journal that had been published 3 times in the last 3-4 years, and only 3 times total, and decided that I have better things to do with my life.
Are you a serious commentator or a troll? Go here:
http://www.benthamscience.com/
If you are referring to the Journal of 911 Studies, yes, that is specific to 911 Truth. Most of those papers are internal scientific debates within the movement. In the case of the nano-thermite paper, that is peer reviewed. Make no mistake, there is a vicious attack by those that orchestrated 911 and their trolls to attack Bentham now.
Ugh.
As for any non-scientific ideas Griscom may have that are without merit or evidence, they indeed should be questioned. As for his scientific credibility, I am unaware of any problems. Everyone is entitled to conjecture, but so long as it is recognized as such.
As for Marie-Paule Pileni, she was an editor, not the editor. And most importantly, she never once responded to the science in the paper. Are you seriously naive enough to believe that there isn't politics behind her decision? Pileni is connected to the Defense industry. Read this article:
http://bit.ly/WhBId
And here is Dr. Harrit's response to her supposed ethical resignation:
http://www.scientistsfor911truth.org/docs/Harrit_PileniResignation.pdf
And, as I said, other scientists are working on Harrit's experiments. But again, are you naive enough not to understand the political implications of doing this work, from being denied grants and tenure due to the politics associated with this?
ps. here's an interview with Mark Basile, a chemical engineer, who has confirmed the presence of nanothermite:
http://bit.ly/9PV1SK
More are forthcoming.
Feel free to keep posting, i'm certainly not following you further down your rabbit hole.
Thank you Maletesta. It is impossible to convince someone whose paycheck depends upon something else, entirely.
Notice what's happening with Wikileaks? The extent to which persecution is aimed at those who reveal the truth.
Remember how Van Jones was thrust aside for speaking truth. Or how Bradley Manning is being treated?
How much truth did citizens get on the dangerous combination of oil-Corexit poured into the Gulf? How much on the radiation still emanating from Japan's melt down nuclear plants? How much about the latest drug until the impacts on consumers/citizens sets up an ad hoc guinea pig experimental pool sufficient enough to take the drug off the market!
Truth is NOT what gets published. It is seldom expressed in media. Heck, about the only "journalists" who dare to speak truth to our current corrupt powers are comedians!
And RFLOH wants to use the dearth of published reports as the reason to dispute the evidence they relate?
VERY STRONG interests do not want a lot of things known by the public. And some in this forum who take the stance of appearing "mild mannered" and polite, serve the function of normalizing a status quo that is anything but: sane, honest, fair, just, decent, healthy, democratic, or legal... but all that is expected to be given a pass in our morally-inverted nation under thrall to an UTTERLY corrupt power structure!
Bentham is the publisher. It publishes various journals.
HOWEVER, the JOURNAL itself that published the article you cite, has only been published 3 times. A scientific journal that has been published 3 times. One issue in 2008, consisting of 3 articles, one issue in 2009, 3 articles, one issue in 2011, 3 articles.
Who has it been peer reviewed by? You state repeatedly that it has been peer reviewed, fair enough, some names.
WEB: Your posts are often contradictory. Why are you attacking those who question the official narrative around 911, and using prior history as a diversion? 911 is seminal BECAUSE it has created an ENDLESS war state; and this endless war state (i.e. a war "ON" terrorism) means tyranny at home. Just in time to bail out the bankster caste, eviscerate civil liberties, dig into the treasure trove represented by Social Security, escalate attacks on unions, illegal aliens, etc.
It's all just TOO convenient!
Understanding the flaws in the 911 narrative does nothing to deprive history of America's previous counterfeit war examples. Gulf of Tonkin, Bay of Pigs, there's plenty of false triggers on record. This was the first time an attack was made directly on our own people, and it was the perfect (if unbelievably ruthless) alibi to cause a population to give up its precious, hard won liberties under the illusion of gaining security from the (increasingly authoritarian, inverted totalitarian, semi-fascist) state.
ANYONE with a brain should realize something fishy went on. So the few in this forum who blame or seek to discredit the thought processes of those who DO raise this issue must have another agenda that they are protecting.
Granting cover to THE cover-up suggests covert motives on the part of those playing this role here on C.D.
"ANYONE with a brain should realize something fishy went on."
i agree completely. Read my posts, i'm not backing the official government story. But i'm completely unconvinced by the "nano-thermite" theory.