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Fourteen Examples of Systemic Racism in the US Criminal Justice System
The biggest crime in the U.S. criminal justice system is that it is a race-based institution where African-Americans are directly targeted and punished in a much more aggressive way than white people.
Saying the US criminal system is racist may be politically controversial in some circles. But the facts are overwhelming. No real debate about that. Below I set out numerous examples of these facts.
The question is – are these facts the mistakes of an otherwise good system, or are they evidence that the racist criminal justice system is working exactly as intended? Is the US criminal justice system operated to marginalize and control millions of African Americans?
Information on race is available for each step of the criminal justice system – from the use of drugs, police stops, arrests, getting out on bail, legal representation, jury selection, trial, sentencing, prison, parole and freedom. Look what these facts show.
One. The US has seen a surge in arrests and putting people in jail over the last four decades. Most of the reason is the war on drugs. Yet whites and blacks engage in drug offenses, possession and sales, at roughly comparable rates – according to a report on race and drug enforcement published by Human Rights Watch in May 2008. While African Americans comprise 13% of the US population and 14% of monthly drug users they are 37% of the people arrested for drug offenses – according to 2009 Congressional testimony by Marc Mauer of The Sentencing Project.
Two. The police stop blacks and Latinos at rates that are much higher than whites. In New York City, where people of color make up about half of the population, 80% of the NYPD stops were of blacks and Latinos. When whites were stopped, only 8% were frisked. When blacks and Latinos are stopped 85% were frisked according to information provided by the NYPD. The same is true most other places as well. In a California study, the ACLU found blacks are three times more likely to be stopped than whites.
Three. Since 1970, drug arrests have skyrocketed rising from 320,000 to close to 1.6 million according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics of the U.S. Department of Justice.
African Americans are arrested for drug offenses at rates 2 to 11 times higher than the rate for whites – according to a May 2009 report on disparity in drug arrests by Human Rights Watch.
Four. Once arrested, blacks are more likely to remain in prison awaiting trial than whites. For example, the New York state division of criminal justice did a 1995 review of disparities in processing felony arrests and found that in some parts of New York blacks are 33% more likely to be detained awaiting felony trials than whites facing felony trials.
Five. Once arrested, 80% of the people in the criminal justice system get a public defender for their lawyer. Race plays a big role here as well. Stop in any urban courtroom and look a the color of the people who are waiting for public defenders. Despite often heroic efforts by public defenders the system gives them much more work and much less money than the prosecution. The American Bar Association, not a radical bunch, reviewed the US public defender system in 2004 and concluded “All too often, defendants plead guilty, even if they are innocent, without really understanding their legal rights or what is occurring…The fundamental right to a lawyer that America assumes applies to everyone accused of criminal conduct effectively does not exist in practice for countless people across the US.”
Six. African Americans are frequently illegally excluded from criminal jury service according to a June 2010 study released by the Equal Justice Initiative. For example in Houston County, Alabama, 8 out of 10 African Americans qualified for jury service have been struck by prosecutors from serving on death penalty cases.
Seven. Trials are rare. Only 3 to 5 percent of criminal cases go to trial – the rest are plea bargained. Most African Americans defendants never get a trial. Most plea bargains consist of promise of a longer sentence if a person exercises their constitutional right to trial. As a result, people caught up in the system, as the American Bar Association points out, plead guilty even when innocent. Why? As one young man told me recently, “Who wouldn’t rather do three years for a crime they didn’t commit than risk twenty-five years for a crime they didn’t do?”
Eight. The U.S. Sentencing Commission reported in March 2010 that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10% longer than white offenders for the same crimes. Marc Mauer of the Sentencing Project reports African Americans are 21% more likely to receive mandatory minimum sentences than white defendants and 20% more like to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants.
Nine. The longer the sentence, the more likely it is that non-white people will be the ones getting it. A July 2009 report by the Sentencing Project found that two-thirds of the people in the US with life sentences are non-white. In New York, it is 83%.
Ten. As a result, African Americans, who are 13% of the population and 14% of drug users, are not only 37% of the people arrested for drugs but 56% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses. Marc Mauer May 2009 Congressional Testimony for The Sentencing Project.
Eleven. The US Bureau of Justice Statistics concludes that the chance of a black male born in 2001 of going to jail is 32% or 1 in three. Latino males have a 17% chance and white males have a 6% chance. Thus black boys are five times and Latino boys nearly three times as likely as white boys to go to jail.
Twelve. So, while African American juvenile youth is but 16% of the population, they are 28% of juvenile arrests, 37% of the youth in juvenile jails and 58% of the youth sent to adult prisons. 2009 Criminal Justice Primer, The Sentencing Project.
Thirteen. Remember that the US leads the world in putting our own people into jail and prison. The New York Times reported in 2008 that the US has five percent of the world’s population but a quarter of the world’s prisoners, over 2.3 million people behind bars, dwarfing other nations. The US rate of incarceration is five to eight times higher than other highly developed countries and black males are the largest percentage of inmates according to ABC News.
Fourteen. Even when released from prison, race continues to dominate. A study by Professor Devah Pager of the University of Wisconsin found that 17% of white job applicants with criminal records received call backs from employers while only 5% of black job applicants with criminal records received call backs. Race is so prominent in that study that whites with criminal records actually received better treatment than blacks without criminal records!
So, what conclusions do these facts lead to? The criminal justice system, from start to finish, is seriously racist.
Professor Michelle Alexander concludes that it is no coincidence that the criminal justice system ramped up its processing of African Americans just as the Jim Crow laws enforced since the age of slavery ended. Her book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness sees these facts as evidence of the new way the US has decided to control African Americans – a racialized system of social control. The stigma of criminality functions in much the same way as Jim Crow – creating legal boundaries between them and us, allowing legal discrimination against them, removing the right to vote from millions, and essentially warehousing a disposable population of unwanted people. She calls it a new caste system.
Poor whites and people of other ethnicity are also subjected to this system of social control. Because if poor whites or others get out of line, they will be given the worst possible treatment, they will be treated just like poor blacks.
Other critics like Professor Dylan Rodriguez see the criminal justice system as a key part of what he calls the domestic war on the marginalized. Because of globalization, he argues in his book Forced Passages, there is an excess of people in the US and elsewhere. “These people”, whether they are in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib or US jails and prisons, are not productive, are not needed, are not wanted and are not really entitled to the same human rights as the productive ones. They must be controlled and dominated for the safety of the productive. They must be intimidated into accepting their inferiority or they must be removed from the society of the productive.
This domestic war relies on the same technology that the US uses internationally. More and more we see the militarization of this country’s police. Likewise, the goals of the US justice system are the same as the US war on terror - domination and control by capture, immobilization, punishment and liquidation.
What to do?
Martin Luther King Jr., said we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values.
A radical approach to the US criminal justice system means we must go to the root of the problem. Not reform. Not better beds in better prisons. We are not called to only trim the leaves or prune the branches, but rip up this unjust system by its roots.
We are all entitled to safety. That is a human right everyone has a right to expect. But do we really think that continuing with a deeply racist system leading the world in incarcerating our children is making us safer?
It is time for every person interested in justice and safety to join in and dismantle this racist system. Should the US decriminalize drugs like marijuana? Should prisons be abolished? Should we expand the use of restorative justice? Can we create fair educational, medical and employment systems? All these questions and many more have to be seriously explored. Join a group like INCITE, Critical Resistance, the Center for Community Alternatives, Thousand Kites, or the California Prison Moratorium and work on it. As Professor Alexander says “Nothing short of a major social movement can dismantle this new caste system.”
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58 Comments so far
Show AllExcellent post, which correctly points out that the United States Criminal justice system is not only seriously racist, but classist as well.
OF COURSE IT'S RACIST. It is by design. This is what happens when you forget your own history (and why the gov't is continually trying to keep you from learning it).
Look at the history of the drug war itself. And to do so you have to go back to the civil war. The first prohibition laws proposed were to keep the Irish in control, since they were such dedicated drunks. Lincoln knew that this was NOT a good way to deal with social problems, and as he said, "these laws make crimes of things which are NOT crimes".
Then in 1913, California wanted to kick the Mexicans out of the state, so the came up with the first anti cannabis law. 4 years later, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and a few other southwestern states passed essentially the same laws for the same reasons. By the time it got to the federal level in 1937, it HAD to pass so that we could save the white women from smoking it and having sex with black men. If you don't believe me, then look it up in the congressional record. It's full of the most racist bullshit you've ever read, and this is our government in action.
Cocaine was made illegal because black men did it and would have sex with white women if they joined them in the practice.
Opium was made illegal to keep white women from having sex with Chinese men.
A judge in California has written a book called "Drug Crazy", and in it he has a brilliant line: "This country never had a problem with any drug or substance until it had a minority to use it against".
The system is racist (and classist, thanks to the last 30 years of right wing treason) as the day is long. In fact, I'm amazed that no one has chosen to use that FACT against the system itself. In a fair, honest and open discussion, the pro drug war side loses EVERY TIME. In court, they should lose BIG TIME. But of course, that requires that the system be HONEST, something that we REALLY CAN'T count on now days.
Back in the late 80's a federal judge held hearings on cannabis, and they went on for over a month. After the dust had settled, he made his decision, which was that the federal gov't had NO business keeping such a harmless plant illegal, especially in the face of alcohol and prescription drugs. I recall hearing the ruling with great joy. The next day he was summarily fired. Those in power HATE truth.
Is the system racist? Foolish question. All you have to do is look at the history of it, let alone it's daily effects, and you will have your answer. Now, the REAL question is when do we stop this bullshit and at least TRY to deal with each other as adults? The gov't is treating us like we are children, and the real problem is that they are abusive parents, at best.
Excellent comment and very precise with your historical facts. There is a documentury about the history of drugs on the history channel and i have never seen it repeated again, it was factual and made the very same points you are making. I can attest to the racist nature of this criminal justice system as a youth growing up in the housing projects in the South Bronx and falling victim to the brutal attacks by police constantly. Unfortunately for this system to be reformed or revolutionized it will take massive education, organization and mobilization which I fear will not happen because it is not one of the major prioritities on the list of our "community organizers" if that even still exist.
Well stated, WJM!
Denial of reality has its comfort zone, I understand that; feeling secure in an insecure position is common with weak minds. Fear is dominating this discusion, the fear of recognizing, human behavior is because of decisions. Is it racism when AA are killing each other, the same as caucasians are killing each other as well as asians, so on and so on. Racism is a tool, a method of distinguishing the weakest first. The power structure mistreat, caucasians, asians and any ethnicity or color. it shows most in the AA community because the greatest amount of weakness is exhibited.
If you can learn to understand, justifying weakness with identification of color is the foundation of weakness. Why is it a few in the world control the masses? Name me any other form of energy mass where the minimum dominates the maximum. The reason the minimum dominates the maximum in the human society is the mind. The few dominates the masses because the masses is programmed to embrace BS without challenge. Example, look at your political system, they lie day and night and it is accepted by the voting population.
Quigley asks: "Should prisons be abolished?"
Where do you place all of the violent offenders if there are no prisons? Rapists, murderers etc...do you let them remain in society to continue victimizing people??
The violent offenders are the minority of prisoners. I don't think the article mentioned violent crime, and although the author wasn't clear, I think it was obvious that he was talking about abolishing prison for 'victimless' crimes. Like 'driving while Black' or possession of drugs 'while a minority', but not for murder, rape, arson or similar crimes.
Of course one other crime that's common among white rich people is fraud, do you really think Conrad Black would have gotten out on bail if he really was Black?
Not one word about percentages of offenders by race or geographical breakdown for actions. Nothing about length of sentence modified by number of offenses. None of the usual measures for an acceptable report.
Seems to be a lot of facts missing here.
Right wing racist clutching at straws.
This is the internet. Ever heard of that thing called a "search engine"?
"Right wing racist clutching at straws."
Name calling. Never a substitute for a good argument.
"This is the internet. Ever heard of that thing called a "search engine"?"
The Burden of Proof" is *always* on the one making the claim. No gadgetry will ever change that.
Right on, Jake. This forum tends to have some people who are given too much praise for their ad hominem attacks even when they try to accuse others of it. Some people don't get it on burden of proof either. I had a tough time trying to reason with someone who claimed that her allegations were always right, http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/07/17-3. Some people get very touchy about experience and opinions too and then use that to claim that their allegations don't need proof. I had gotten into this same debate with another individual, http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/13-3. I did a thorough research on burden of proof a couple of months ago before coming back and you were right. I don't get this forum. I'm progressive but for not being their pure one, I also get flamed by some for pointing out inconsistencies on race, gender, and immigration. Rfloh usually comes up with baseless attacks for his or her arguments if it isn't name-calling.
" I did a thorough research on burden of proof a couple of months ago "
You prove that Critical Thinking is a *learned skill*. There is no shame in your past ignorance, and you cured it by research. Well done.
Thanks again Jake. One more thing, someone just gave you a red badge of courage. Your name came up on the following thread, http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/25-2. There's a new definition of trespassing in the works. "trespassers - those who twist the law to punish by race". Are they confusing racists with trespassers? Oh man, this is getting hilarious ! :D
I came across that earlier. I think Sioux was off base in comparing burden of proof in that way. Police have always been allowed to ask for ID etc. way before that Arizona law. Badger's point is reasonable, that if there were something wrong with the law, one should ba able to point to the specific defective language in the law. No one can, they just talk about driving while black, etc. If the problem is that the law could be applied wrong, then every law has that same problem.
Martian Bachelor July 26th, 2010 9:41 pm -- I think the objections by you and Jake and mightymite have been put to rest decisively by Quigley and his supporters (including myself). But by all means, if you can think of something else, I'll check back later. Thanks!
" I think the objections by you and Jake and mightymite have been put to rest decisively by Quigley and his supporters (including myself)."
What would be your very best example?
jakenewton July 26th, 2010 10:38 pm -- I thought SaboCat July 26th, 2010 10:11 pm made a pretty good undeniable rejoinder. The statistics in Quigley's article speak for themselves.
"I thought SaboCat July 26th, 2010 10:11 pm made a pretty good undeniable rejoinder."
He merely cut and paste from the article!?!?
"The statistics in Quigley's article speak for themselves."
You are missing the point. Statistics don't speak. It's the analysis of statistics, and the placing of them in proper context that would actually say something. Quigly fails in this. *You* OTOH were on to something, in wondering about the role of values in Asian families. Think about that some more. Quigley isn't even thinking of values, raw unanalyzed statistics are good enough for him.
We're not totally disagreeing with you but some of Quigley's statements are still open to debate. His numbers are still questionable. There's racism against whites too but why isn't he including that? He may say that only 8% of whites are stopped compared to 85% of African Americans but if there are far fewer African Americans, then stopping them because of race still sounds dubious. He then goes on to blaming race for everything that happens to African Americans. Other races in this country aren't doing so bad so racism isn't the problem. Numerically, more whites are targeted than blacks if one were to translate the percentages into actual numbers but I don't blame racism. Let's put a simple example. There 100 people living in a town. 80 are white, 15 are African American, and 5 are other. 10 whites and 5 blacks get apprehended. That's 33% of the blacks and 12% of the whites. See where Quigley gets his math wrong?
We agree on something, it is not about race; what then is the cause for situations and conditions existing in the AA community. To say someone is doing something to you generation after generation is the summary of a weak mind. A strong mind recognize its responsibility. Life is about rendering decisions. If someone is trying to destroy you, makes sense to render a decision to destroy them. Thinking is an innate attribute in the package of life with condsideration of brain damage.
Fear is a reason for weak mind, fear of challenging traditional cultral information. To be a product of a slavery system existing for centuries is certification of the fear of challenging and an acceptance of traditional programming. Freedom starts with the mind, if the mind is not free to validate reality, you remain a prisoner of your own selectivity. You finalize all decisions relevant to you. You either accept or reject. you are responsible for your decisions. If you want to strictly adhere to information passed on traditionally from slave generation to slave generation, then you remain vulnerable to a slave mentality.
BS is the culpit in mind function and the AA community has thrived on it for centuries. Examine the most influential leadership and the masses of followers in the community with critical lenses and the revelation will start you on the path of reality. As long as the AA community perpetuate slave minded bondage, there will be no change.
lol
Come now mightymite these are AMERICANS. In recent posts you claimed you have more in Common with Americans then you have with Mexicans.
Could you clarify that statement?
The White population outnumbers that of blacks by over 5 to 0ne. Therefore anyone able to do the math would conclude that in sum total there are more white drug users then there are black drug users.
The article clearly gives percentages broken down by race where she indicated BLACK Drug users are 13 percent of the population and 14 percent of drug users. Did you just skip that?
This means that they are only marginaly (1 percentage point) more likely to be drug users then Whites based on population size.
>>The US has seen a surge in arrests and putting people in jail over the last four decades. Most of the reason is the war on drugs. Yet whites and blacks engage in drug offenses, possession and sales, at roughly comparable rates – according to a report on race and drug enforcement published by Human Rights Watch in May 2008. While African Americans comprise 13% of the US population and 14% of monthly drug users they are 37% of the people arrested for drug offenses – according to 2009 Congressional testimony by Marc Mauer of The Sentencing Project
Given the fact white Americans outnumber black Americans by about 5 to one, this means there are FAR MORE White American drug users then blacks. (Around 5 to 1)
HE GAVE the numbers and you just ignored them claiming he did not break the number of offenders down by race.
mightymite July 26th, 2010 11:31 am -- In a brief article not all statistics can be laid out and analyzed. But I think Quigley's case is easily proven just by looking at the racial composition of the prison population. And I challenge you to come up with any statistics supporting the idea that the discrepancies can be accounted for by something other than unfairness in the system.
"But I think Quigley's case is easily proven just by looking at the racial composition of the prison population. "
That would be defective thinking. As you allude to in the next statement you have to consider other things. Income level is one obvious area, and so too with sub-cultural differences.
" And I challenge you to come up with any statistics supporting the idea that the discrepancies can be accounted for by something other than unfairness in the system."
It is not simple unfairness that is in question, it's unfairness with respect to race. And it is not raw statistics that support a hypothesis, it's the *analysis* of those statistics that would do that. The "analysis" provided by the the author of this article is simplistic in the extreme, where it exists at all. mightymite is correct in asking for something more then the usual cliche we get from the left on this subject.
jakenewton July 26th, 2010 8:50 pm -- You say, "As you allude to in the next statement you have to consider other things. Income level is one obvious area, and so too with sub-cultural differences."
I didn't allude to those, but since you bring them up, let's look at the total picture. It's not just the criminal justice system that discriminates. Even if all unfairness were eliminated from it, I think blacks and Hispanics would still appear in the prison population in higher percentages than their fractions of the general population. That's because the "system" starts working against them, in comparison to whites, from the outset. Neonatal care is not as robust; the more frequent absence of biological fathers causes pregnant females to be deprived of desirable support; the lower incomes of those fathers who are there also deprives the pregnant females of support that would be on average available to white females, both before and after birth. The parents' lower educational levels mean the fetuses receive less protection in the womb, and of course after birth, and have a less favorable academic environment due to their parents' lack of education and residence in areas with inadequate schools. The larger number of siblings the children have to compete with (thanks in part to our anti-abortion laws) aggravates the situation. And so on.
I don't think these matters are susceptible of exact mathematical proof. I think it's silly to demand exact mathematical proof. However, let's say you're justified is disregarding arguments like Quigley's because they aren't rigorous enough, and therefore you think there's no unfairness in the system (or as many conservatives think, that the unfairness is, now, to whites). The only alternative is that at the moment of conception, the black or Hispanic individual has less potential to achieve success in life than whites or Asians, due to genetic factors. Is that your theory?
If a CEO is black, hispanic, or Asian, they usually get called into question faster than a white CEO. I would still not rule out mathematical proof since statistics can be distorted.
"That's because the "system" starts working against them, in comparison to whites, from the outset. "
"Neonatal care is not as robust;"
And how is racism a factor in that?
"the more frequent absence of biological fathers causes pregnant females to be deprived of desirable support;"
And how is racism a factor in that? I would repeat the question for the other points. I would ask you how things like "Stop Snitchin'" and "Acting White" could possibly help, and also ask how you think Asians have largely escaped a disproportionate representation in jail.
"I don't think these matters are susceptible of exact mathematical proof."
Agreed.
"disregarding arguments like Quigley's because they aren't rigorous enough,"
The rigor apears entirely absent. I suspect he knows better.
"The only alternative is that at the moment of conception, the black or Hispanic individual has less potential to achieve success in life than whites or Asians,"
I don't think that.
"Is that your theory?"
I lean towards cultural values within the sub-cultures involved.
Why do you seem to think The System gives Asians a break?
jakenewton July 26th, 2010 10:33 pm -- I didn't claim that racism is totally, or even partly, at fault for the things you mention. But now that you mention it, I believe racism is a major factor. Many whites view the identifiable groups analogously to individuals. If two individuals come out differently, say siblings in the same family, we look to non-racial causes. But identifiable groups aren't analogous to siblings in that way. To say that blacks or Hispanics have to be blamed for their lack of success because they belong to the black culture or have values that steer them away from success is, in my opinion, racist.
Nonetheless, I think part of the answer to the problem Quigley discusses lies in changes in the thinking of members of the disfavored groups, as well as the thinking of whites (such as the totally ridiculous notion that "reverse discrimination" is a big problem, and the attitude that the election of Obama proves we're in a "post-racial" period of history). Blaming black culture or Hispanic values for the failure of black or Hispanic children to achieve success in our society isn't just racist; it makes needed changes harder to achieve. Ways to address the problem without doing that (and thus making it worse) are needed. I think affirmative action, although not perfect, comes close to accomplishing that. Reforming the criminal justice system would also help. Do you have any other suggestions?
Racism by other groups against Asians does exist, but nothing like the racism of whites against blacks and Hispanics. Asians -- at least some of them -- seem to benefit from family values passed down from their ancestors that coincide with some values characteristic of successful whites. Their skin color is more like that of whites. I would like to know more about why certain Asian groups appear to have escaped the effects of racism.
"To say that blacks or Hispanics have to be blamed for their lack of success because they belong to the black culture or have values that steer them away from success is, in my opinion, racist. "
Thanks for your post. Is a greater tendency for a man to abandon the mother of his child likely to help or hurt the prison stats vis a vis blacks? Just like the prison stats we have for race, so to do we have this stat for race.
What about Stop Snitchin'? When I first heard of this, I was utterly dumbfounded and disgusted. The only people I ever saw wearing these tee shirts were black and male.
And then the desire to make good academic achievment is Acting White. Why is this and the other points not a reflection of values and instead racism? And why do Asians not seem to get discriminated against? Where do you see that attitudes within the black culture are no different than the attitudes within Asian culture around education?
"Asians -- at least some of them -- seem to benefit from family values "
Exactly, here is your answer.
jakenewton July 26th, 2010 11:30 pm -- Racism manifests itself in at least two distinguishable ways. I’ll pose these in terms of white racism against blacks, but there are many other combinations and permutations. First, the innate or genetically generated form: the white racist thinks black human individuals from conception on are on average inferior in some way to white individuals. That is seen as the cause of the failures of blacks such as those Quigley describes. At its most extreme, this type of racism dispenses with “on average” and holds that all whites are better than all blacks; in effect, that blacks are subhuman. Segregationists had this belief. The other form of racism places the emphasis on cultural differences, although this may be combined with beliefs about innate characteristics. The cultural racist contends that black culture causes the failures of blacks such as those Quigley describes. This is a less virulent form of racism, since it allows for some blacks to cross into white society if they abandon their black culture. You appear to believe that if blacks would abandon a greater tendency for a man to abandon the mother of his child, the belief that “snitching” must be stopped, and the belief that all academic achievement sought by whites has little or no value for blacks, blacks would then be welcomed into, and more able to succeed in, the white community. One of the biggest complaints of white cultural racists, one you don't mention, is that blacks don’t care about whites and favor discrimination against them. I assume you think blacks giving up such negative cultural "values" would enable them to succeed in the U.S. I believe you see Asians as not adhering to such cultural “values,” thus making them more likely to succeed.
I’d like to know if I’ve correctly understood you. If so, then I would go on to say that many whites also abandon their children, refuse to “snitch,” reject academic achievement, and favor discrimination against other groups. Be that as it may, I think members of culturally different identifiable groups owe it to members of other such groups to let them decide whether certain aspects of their culture, such as the four mentioned, are inherent or essential to their culture. I believe that if you ask any successful black person they will tell you those things aren’t an essential part of black culture, any more than successful whites would deem them an essential part of white culture. That being so, cultural racism amounts to believing that the negative things are essential aspects of black culture, and perhaps that blacks will never be able to give them up, even if they start out in life genetically equal to whites.
"You appear to believe that if blacks would abandon a greater tendency for a man to abandon the mother of his child, the belief that “snitching” must be stopped, and the belief that all academic achievement sought by whites has little or no value for blacks, blacks would then be welcomed into, and more able to succeed in, the white community. "
I believe that *anyone* abondoning their family sabotages that family and tends to destroy the chances for those individuals to succeed. The abandonment happens more frequently amoung blacks, and it is not racist to say so. I don't beleive it is skin pigmentation that causes this, rather something cultural. There seems to be less stigma around it, or some other explaination. Similarly, the tendency to not come forward as a witness against those responsible for often violent crimes is detrimental to the success of those communities and individuals therein. It is not racist to say that Stop Snitchin' occurs almost exclusivly among some subset of blacks.
"I would go on to say that many whites also abandon their children, ..."
Of course they do, but not in the same proportion.
"I think members of culturally different identifiable groups owe it to members of other such groups to let them decide whether certain aspects of their culture, such as the four mentioned, are inherent or essential to their culture."
This is very puzzling. OK, lets let them decide for themselves if single motherhood is just as good as an intact set of parents, that education means little, that violent crime should be tolerated etc. etc.!?!? OK, lets do that. And if in the face of those cultural decisions the prison population is represented in a disproportionate way, we can always claim racism. Sorry, but that is intellectually lazy.
"cultural racism amounts to believing that the negative things are essential aspects of black culture, and perhaps that blacks will never be able to give them up, even if they start out in life genetically equal to whites."
I don't beleive that for a second.
jakenewton July 27th, 2010 12:15 pm – Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Hope you’re still around.
In response to my comment ("I think members of culturally different identifiable groups owe it to members of other such groups to let them decide whether certain aspects of their culture, such as the four mentioned, are inherent or essential to their culture"), you say,
“OK, let’s let them decide for themselves if single motherhood is just as good as an intact set of parents, that education means little, that violent crime should be tolerated etc. etc.!?!? OK, let's do that. And if in the face of those cultural decisions the prison population is represented in a disproportionate way, we can always claim racism. Sorry, but that is intellectually lazy.”
My point could have been stated more plainly. I believe it’s culturally racist to tell blacks or Hispanics that their cultures or group values include not being faithful parents, discouraging cooperation with legitimate law enforcement, etc. Those problems may be common in the groups, but I see no reason, other than the intellectual laziness of prejudice, to brand a culture with such negatives, unless the leaders of the culture adopt and advocate them. In other words, I think it would be (cultural) racism to say that the gross failure of children from such cultures to succeed in comparison to whites is due to the nature of their culture. If Hispanic leaders – persons highly respected by Hispanics – advised Hispanics in this country not to educate their children in the English language, and to discourage them from attending school beyond the 8th grade (like the Amish), and to have children out of wedlock, and to disregard any sense of obligation to support and nurture their own children, whites would have a reason to blame Hispanic culture for the lack of success of Hispanic children. But no Hispanic leaders I’ve ever heard of promoted such “values.” The same goes for blacks. Some black or Hispanic entertainers seem to be okay with negative values, but I hear the cultural leaders criticizing them for that, not praising them, the same way white leaders disapprove of some of their own entertainers.
"I believe it’s culturally racist to tell blacks or Hispanics that their cultures or group values include not being faithful parents, discouraging cooperation with legitimate law enforcement, etc. "
Thanks for your response. But race isn't the only thing that defines the culture, so I think this belief is misguided.
"Those problems may be common in the groups, "
And the question is why. I don't think it stems from skin color per se.
"but I see no reason, other than the intellectual laziness of prejudice, to brand a culture with such negatives,"
You can call it branding or anything you like, but if those factors are there to be seen then that is a *fact*. Denying facts may not be lazy but it's dishonest and disengenuous.
"unless the leaders of the culture adopt and advocate them."
I deny this as an important criteria in any case. We merely have to observe the existance of the tendencies in question.
"In other words, I think it would be (cultural) racism to say that the gross failure of children from such cultures to succeed in comparison to whites is due to the nature of their culture."
See above, race is not the only thing that defines culture. That the issues stem from culture is only my opinion. I would allow that there could be something else we have not yet discussed, besides race or culture, that would explain these things in part or completely. But when you propose such a thing, you need to keep the other theories on the table until such time that you cast extreme doubt on those theories and find sufficient support for the new one. What I see happening with an article suc as this one is onstead someone who doesn't consider other mechanisms and is just shoehorning data into his preconcieved world view.
jakenewton July 28th, 2010 9:11 am -- One final comment as this thread dies. I said, "Those problems may be common in the groups, but I see no reason, other than the intellectual laziness of prejudice, to brand a culture with such negatives, unless the leaders of the culture adopt and advocate them."
Your comment: "[C]all it branding or anything you like, but if those factors are there to be seen then that is a *fact*. Denying facts may not be lazy but it's dishonest and disingenuous. . . . I deny this [advocacy by group leaders] as an important criteria in any case. We merely have to observe the existence of the tendencies in question."
You will most assuredly get an argument from blacks or Hispanics if you "brand" their culture by saying their culture favors the negative "values" (may I should call it rejection of values such as those encouraging obeying the law, supporting children, etc.). The argument will sooner or later result in your being called a racist. I'm not going that far; I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt that you're just being lazy, not deeply prejudiced. But what's the point of alienating the very members of black and Hispanic groups who could most effectively cause blacks and Hispanics to shape up in those areas where they're falling short?
The Asians are less of a threat, they in general live in a community atmosphere, relating to politics the way it is without direct participation, they buy what they can. The political system is a commidity system for purchasing. Voting is not the answer as much as buying. Do the math, who has the most influence on our political system and what is the math on their voting capacity.
Once again, until you understand, it is not about color or race, it is and have always been about power(Strong-Weak).
In China, Chinese mistreat Chinese, Japanese mistreat Japanese, Irish mistreat Irish, Italians mistreat Italians, Africans mistreat Africans, so on and so on.
If you are weak, the strong will manipulate you and what makes you strong is your mind, rendering decisions of strength. We live in a world where the competition is MINDS! You can't resolve real problems with unreal analyticl assessments. You can't fix what is wrong, if you don't know what is wrong.
"The Asians are less of a threat,"
Meaning they don't commit crime as much? Is it racist to say this?
"it is not about color or race, it is and have always been about power"
So you disagree with the premise of the article, as expressed in the title?
No, that is not what I meant, you don't think they commit crimes and have gang problems in China town? It is a controlled society, they deal with their own and is not a political threat to the power structure. Once again, do the math and understand the breeding system structured for slaves and their descendants and mostly volunteered immigration. Do you understand history, how many Russion people were enslaved and genocided by Russians and the same in other countries. It is the mind set that bring about destruction of people and property and there are destructive minds in all groups of people.
Despite all the justification od reasons and excuses projected, the reality is still the strong devours the weak and you are only as strong as your mind. Why not challenge the cause of a weak mind? It will always be Decisions that make the difference.
Everything I am reading from you tells me that race really isn't a factor after all. I mostly agree with that.
From the article:
"African Americans, who are 13% of the population and 14% of drug users, are not only 37% of the people arrested for drugs but 56% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses..."
Does that answer your question?
Does not prove racism. Correlation is not causation. Other factors must be controlled for somehow.
Like what?
Income, education level, age, attitudes towards education (see "Acting White") , tolerance for crime ( see "Stop Snitchin'") , presense of a father in a household upbringing, teen pregnancy rates, just for starters.
You really didn't consider any of these to be possible factors?
Why don't you contribute some facts, criticism is not as helpful as facts. The article contributed what they felt was useful; I am sure they have more information, more than you would absorb. They were not writing a book, only an article
"Why don't you contribute some facts, criticism is not as helpful as facts. "
While this is true, there is nothing wrong with the criticism of any presentation of facts where it is accompanied by faulty analysis or lacking therein. In making such a criticism, there is no need to go beyond that, it is a contribution to the discussion in it's own regard.
True criticism has a place, I stated not as helpful, but criticism can be a distraction, if not accompanied with constructive suggestions or ideas. I recognize I was critical of the criticism, which recognize your criticism as valid. More to the point, I believe strategy and ideas should be more of a focus. I think we are both seeking resolve.
"I believe strategy and ideas should be more of a focus. I think we are both seeking resolve."
OK, that's fine but we are correct to reject articles such as this that claim to "prove systemic racism" when they don't.
Thank you Mr. Quigley. Community is where we can abolish this racist system. Maybe we can get the neighborhood watch programs up and going again, but arm them with better protection against infiltrators and Black-water type tactics by the police.
My law school used to have a free legal clinic back in the late 70s, early 80s in L.A. This is the best way to help teach people of color how to help and utilize the justice system to work for them instead of against them.
Also, keep telling us stories about the great things groups like Critical Resistance do in places like New Orleans which show how effective it is to take a stand against this racist justice system.
Thanks again for keeping us updated!
Better ways make better days...
Well, if you can't keep the coloureds as slaves, keeping them as prisoners is the next best thing.
(from the pov of the ruling class, anyhow)
Obviously the mostly white cops are going to look upon the minorities as being 'up to no good'. Happens in every nation, and it's just as bad a thing in Canada as it is in the states. Up here, if you drive a good car and look like a Native American, the cops will stop you. The Natives are an even smaller minority than the Black folk, yet they make up nearly a quarter of the prison population.
Is the system geared to fuck over the lower classes and people who aren't the favoured ones; you betcha.
It's obvious that more black americans need to be adopted by rich white folks making them less likely to become criminals.
Adopted?
I think they should consider... trading places.