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Lt. Choi Won’t Lie for His Country
Lt. Dan Choi doesn’t want to lie. Choi, an Iraq war veteran and a graduate of West Point, declared last March 19 on “The Rachel Maddow Show,” “I am gay.” Under the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulations, those three words are enough to get Choi kicked out of the military. Choi has become a vocal advocate for repealing the policy, having spoken before tens of thousands of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people and their allies at last Sunday’s National Equality March in Washington, D.C.
Shortly after Choi’s public admission to being gay, the Department of the Army sent him a letter stating, in part, that “you admitted publicly that you are a homosexual which constitutes homosexual conduct. ... Your actions negatively affected the good order and discipline of the New York Army National Guard.” Since “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993, 13,500 soldiers, sailors and Marines have been discharged from the military for similar alleged behavior. Choi could receive an “other than honorable” discharge, losing the health, retirement, educational and other benefits to which combat veterans are entitled. While Congress acts to remove the restrictions on health insurance for people with “pre-existing conditions,” Choi’s pre-existing conditions, being gay and being honest about it, may be enough to keep him out of the Veterans Affairs health care system for life.
The night before Sunday’s march, President Barack Obama spoke to the Human Rights Campaign, the largest and wealthiest gay-advocacy group: “We should not be punishing patriotic Americans who have stepped forward to serve this country. ... I will end ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.’ ” He laid out no timetable, however.
After receiving the letter from the Army, Choi wrote an open letter to his commander in chief, Obama. He said: “I have personally served for a decade under Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell: an immoral law and policy that forces American soldiers to deceive and lie about their sexual orientation. Worse, it forces others to tolerate deception and lying.” U.S. troops in Afghanistan are serving side by side with NATO forces that include openly gay and lesbian troops.
Longtime gay-rights activist Urvashi Vaid, author of “Virtual Equality: The Mainstreaming of Gay and Lesbian Liberation,” is opposed to war and militarism, but told me, “The military is a large employer, and has to commit to not being discriminatory.” She, too, was at the march Sunday, whose turnout surprised many of the mainstream gay organizations, as they hadn’t actively organized it. She said: “First, it’s a generational shift in the LGBT movement. There is a new wave of activism coming up. And it’s gay and straight. That’s a second big change ... the third shift that’s happening in the LGBT movement is that it’s much more of a multi-issue agenda that is being carried by the people who are marching.” In addition to “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” the LGBT movement is also intent on repealing the Clinton-era Defense of Marriage Act, and on achieving marriage equality. This will be a hard fight, Vaid predicts, based on grass-roots activism in every congressional district. Challenging discriminatory laws couldn’t be more timely: On the day before Obama’s speech to the Human Rights Campaign, a gay man in New York City was taunted with anti-gay slurs and savagely beaten by two men. He is currently in a coma.
Lt. Dan Choi is still technically a serving officer. Obama could halt proceedings against Choi. Activists contend Obama could stop active enforcement of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” through an executive order. Presidential or congressional action may not come in time to save Choi’s military career. If he loses his health benefits, he has a plan. Choi got a message from an Iraqi doctor whose hospital Choi helped to rebuild while he was there. He said the doctor is “in South Baghdad right now. And he’s seen some of the Internet, YouTube and CNN interviews and other appearances, and he said: ‘Brother, I know that you’re gay, but you’re still my brother, and you’re my friend. And if your country, that sent you to my country, if America, that sent you to Iraq, will discharge you such that you can’t get medical benefits, you can come to my hospital any day. You can come in, and I will give you treatment.’ ”
Choi ended, “I hope that our country can learn from that Iraqi doctor.”
Denis Moynihan contributed research to this column.
- Posted in
90 Comments so far
Show AllSadly, this issue clarifies the President's personal and political cowardice more than it does Obama's obeisance to Wall Street. The issue of gays in the military has little if any economic significance to the financial overlords.
q
This is also the truth. Sadly the country has more urgent problems, this and other social needs will be put on the back burner. And I have to agree with your definition of Obama at this point.
Sioux Rose
HENRY: Since the military has a lot of money these days, I wonder if YOU are paid to post pro-military comments on common dreams. You sure are "here" a lot. I know I sometimes spend a few hours and that's because I have the luxury of being a freelance writer. But there are persons, particularly yourself, who post day in and out, over and over, and therefore they're obviously not working any routine job hours. Yet they have bills to pay. And even if you're retired, could you be moonlighting for extra pay? Is that why you never fail to salute while in the forum? Bet you're even wearing your uniform?
SR,
i try to hesitate before suspecting any particular poster of being a paid shill.
i know (as you point out regarding the military) that there is a lot of money available to powerful organizations who indeed pay people to post on public internet sites... and there simply must be paid people participating in Common Dreams threads.
But i hesitate to publicly raise doubts about specific posters, because we sure could spend a lot of energy going back and forth about who suspects whom of being a paid shill.
Kind of like being at an organizing meeting for a protest action, looking around the room, wondering "Who's the Fed?" Not a ridiculous question, but also in many ways counterproductive to start raising. Infiltrators even raise doubts in the group about who might be infiltrators, to promote a breakdown of trust.
Not that CD is a group organizing political action. And here i go joining in.
Maybe it is possible to have a useful discussion of the fact that some posters come here to covertly disrupt the community. But i have doubts about how we could do that.
Sioux Rose
WEBWALK: I agree with your points, and they are well-made. This subject and a certain party's canned responses bug me. It's like a door so tightly closed, that even when dynamite is applied the hinges remain ONLY true to the fixed pivot they were originally cast into. The thing will not budge! (I'm tired tonight, if the metaphor doesn't work, I apologize. Generally I try to be a diplomat in this forum, so I don't mind being corrected if I have stepped out of bounds, presumably the basis for that assessment isn't just someone's authoritarian credo being projected my way. I don't "get" that about you at all. So I will take your suggestion to heart.)
Sioux,
It's late but, if you get this...
Thanks for your words. i do not always take as much care as i could to be intentional with the way i come across. It is actually a bit easier for me in this forum to take the care i should with my communication, since i have a chance to look at what i wrote and edit it. i still slip sometimes...
i totally agree about "a certain party's canned responses", if you see what i wrote to him farther down the thread...
Good night,
webster
All Americans owe Lt. Choi our thanks for helping us rescind don't ask, don't tell".
There is one excellent thing about DADT: Any soldier tired of multiple deployments and putting himself "in harm's way" for the lies of Republicans can say, "Hey, Colonel, sir, I'm gay. Where's my ticket home?"
So far as I'm concerned, Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a silly policy that has caused the military no end of unnecessary headaches. In today's Army, where Soldiers are expected to respect the cultural values of drug dealing warlords who keep children as sex slaves, the idea that the men and women of the military aren't mature enough to handle serving alongside openly gay service members is nonsense. I've known a few gay Soldiers who were good guys, and their sexuality had little or no affect on unit morale and cohesion. No one really cared what they did in their private lives, and I always felt bad for them for having to try and skirt the issue of their personal lives in the professional environment.
That said, I draw a huge line of distinction between the kind of Soldiers I served with and Soldiers who actively seek out discharge to make political statements. 1LT Choi wasn't awkwardly found out and removed against his will. His military service was less important to him then his politics, and decided to have himself removed to draw attention to the situation he sought to bring onto himself.
The problem with 1LT Choi isn't who he is, it's his decision to announce it. He's well within his rights under Don't Ask, Don't Tell to speak out against the policy publicly, and to attend or lead gay advocacy protests. What he can't do is publicly reveal his sexuality. It's a dumb policy. It's also current policy, and a Soldier has no place ignoring or willfully breaking military law because they don't like it and don't think it should apply to them. If 1LT Choi didn't feel he could live within the constraints of military regulations and laws, he never should have sworn an oath to do so. He's not unfit to serve because he's gay. He's unfit to serve because he found his personal life important enough to betray the commitment he made to the American people to lead Soldiers. His motives don't forgive the consequences of his actions.
There are few things as dangerous to military readiness as a Soldier who disregards laws and orders because he doesn't like them. I feel exactly the same about 1LT Choi's performance as I would if he had put on the uniform and campaigned for a politician, or got on TV to announce he was sleeping with an enlisted Soldier. He isn't someone who slipped up or made an accidental mistake. He scheduled a TV interview on a popular news program to draw as much attention as possible to himself as he disregarded military regulations and broke his commitment to the Army. Since then he has proceeded to appear at rallies in uniform to advocate his politics, a highly inappropriate violation of military regulations. If I had a leader with his apparent priorities and poor conduct it would severely degrade my morale and faith in his abilities.
When that day comes that this policy is changed, I very much hope it's stipulated that service members who have behaved as 1LT Choi has are barred from ever reentering the military.
"There are few things as dangerous to military readiness as a Soldier who disregards laws and orders"
--------------------------------
Quite true. Just think if the soldiers of the Wehrmacht in '39 had decided that it would be a crime against peace to invade Poland. That would have made hash of Nazi military readiness for sure, for sure. Saved about 50M lives, of course, but what's that when set against obedience to authority.
I worked in Germany through most of the '60s. Because of my job, I occasionally had to interact with Bundeswehr soldiers. The one thing they all had drilled into them from the moment they were issued with their uniform was that it was *THEIR* responsibility to disregard 'laws and orders' that contradict the common heritage of civilisation we in Europe and the Americas all receive as part of our early-childhood socialisation. That no matter *what* their sergeant or captain or general said, it was their duty to refuse to obey if, in their considered personal judgement, the order would result in an offence against humanity or peace.
And they were quite militant about making sure their NCOs and officers knew they were committed to principled disobedience, too. They and the stroppy squaddies of Britain's Rhine Army made a poignant contrast to the unthinkingly obedient US troops I often dealt with.
Your analogy is typical and insulting to our soldiers. Its also a civilians view of the military. Its also the exact reason Europe doesn't want American troops withdrawn.
Your Bundeswehr soldiers would lose a contest with a bunch of Vietnamese teenagers. They are a joke in case you weren't aware of it. Worthless on the battlefield and any military analyst can tell you why.
Your US soldiers lost a contest to a bunch of Vietnamese teenagers.
Your authoritarianism shows once again. Your own toops are worthless on the battlefield as evidenced in Afghanistan. Take away the AIRPower and the Body armor and tanks and the Afghans kick your backsides.
The only time the US soldiers show their mettle is when they are beating up on some third world nation and at the first sign of trouble they gotta call in the flyboys to drop bombs willy nilly on crowds of people.
As to your Military analysts. They know jack shit. As evidenced by all the predictions they made of cakewalks in Iraq and Afghanistan and all the "analysis" they did about the light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam.
The Australian Pilots that were in Iraq could refuse an order to bomb a target if they felt it would kill Civilians. They did not bomb their targets on many missions. They are "twice" the MEN then those that bomb wedding parties and schoolbuses because they were ordered to do so.
"Your US soldiers lost a contest to a bunch of Vietnamese teenagers."
We did indeed. The most remarkable thing is how gracious they were in welcoming us back. Frankly I don't know why they feel the way they do about Americans , they sure don't feel thaty way about the Chinese, Japanese or French.
"Take away the AIRPower and the Body armor and tanks and the Afghans kick your backsides."
Not hardly my friend. No more than the Viet Namese did. We can kick most anyones ass in the field, like it or not. We kicked the Viet Namames army and the VC in every engagement, big deal. We could take and hold any area we pleased....big deal. You cannopt win there or Iraq or in Afganistan unless the people there want you there to help them.
You confuse winnimng a fight with achieving a goal. If you set a goal that is not achievable as in Viet Nam or Iraq or Afganistan, you are going to lose in the end.
You haven't seen the US once use our total power on anyone since WW2, not in Korea, not even in Viet Nam. You continue to confuse reality with...what was it..."authoritarianism" Its just reality my friend. You may nopt like it, but its the truth.
Easy example....Do you or anyone here think China gives a rats fart about South Korea? Do you or anyone here believe that if our troops were withdrawn (which I favor...STRONGLY) and we said we aren't coming back, we will not be involved in the area in any way, how long do you or anyione here think it would be befiore North Korea visited them? China would not stop them. The UN couldn't do a single thing about them. Thats the truth.
Actually I kind of agree with you about our analysts....even Marine intelligence, its always a day late and a dollar short for the guys in the field.
Yes they predicted the Iraqi army would go under quickly, they did...my sister could have predicted that. The only standing field army that has any chance opposing us is China's. The Russians have nothing much, but they are building.
The characterazation of our guys wanting to drop bombs on civilians, is as untrue and silly as the claims that soldiers are robots, etc. It may suit someones ideology or stereotype, but its simply Horsefeathers.
>>You haven't seen the US once use our total power on anyone since WW2, not in Korea, not even in Viet Nam. You continue to confuse reality with...what was it..."authoritarianism" Its just reality my friend. You may nopt like it, but its the truth.
>>The characterazation of our guys wanting to drop bombs on civilians, is as untrue and silly as the claims that soldiers are robots, etc. It may suit someones ideology or stereotype, but its simply Horsefeathers
You have not used your TOTAL power? What the heck is that supposed to mean. You were "holding back" out of concern for Civilians?
Is that why Cambodia had more bombs dropped on it then you dropped on the nazis in all of ww11? You dropped 2.7 MILLION tons of Bombs on Cambodia and that alone was more then the total tonnage dropped on Germany AND Japan in WW11. Of course those countries could fight back something Cambodia could not. Cambodia was not even in the war!
You dropped 3/4 's of a MILLION tons of bombs on North Vietnam during rolling thunder and that as holding back because "you do not like bombing Civilians?" North Vietnam is a heck of a lot smaller then nazi Occupied Europe yet you seemed to find targets a pelnty to saturate with bombs. What the heck did you THINk you were bombing if not PEOPLE?
You dropped ATOMIC bombs on Cities filled with Civilians but because you really did not LIKE doing it...it somehow shows some restraint?
You dropped Agent Orange over half of Vietnam....Chemical Warfare on a scale never seen and "Unlike in ww11" that was HOLDING back?
I watched videos of your FLYBOYS in Gulf War one. They were interviewing them after they had slaughtered tens of thousands of fleeing Iraqis on the Highway of death.
They were laughing and JOKING about it. They were describing in detail how the iraqis were scurrying around like Chickens with their heads cut off trying to escape the bombs...they seemed to be having a jolly good time.
You worship Guns violence and death. You advocate killing women and children if it means saving the lives of "American Soldiers". THAt SIR IS your IDEOLOGY but please stop trying to claim it somehow shows "honor" or "caring" or a compassion .
some soldiers reported - about Afhganistan :
"what we saw in IRAQ compares NOTHING to THESE afghanis".
"if all things were really EQUAL, without our helicopters and drones and missiles and big bombs...and we fought on EQUAL terms - the fighting would be OVER in 3 days - we would LOSE bigtime to these fierce warriors".
No Teddy, we wouldn't lose in three days. Though many here would like to portray our soldiers as robots or they need all sorts of technical stuff or they would lose hand to hand against these "fierce" warriors, its simply not true.
They have the advantage, thats all. Send both groups into the hills and its our boys that would come back. Having to defend fixed positions/villages/etc is a great disadvantage. The rules of engagement are a great disadvantage.
perhaps, perhaps, Henry8...
and at the context of the US soldiers' winning ....
what is the POINT?
is the matter that US soldiers would WIN a BATTLE - become the JUSTIFICATIOn for ENTERING the borders of other countries, invade, occupy, lay down "rules" -- where the USA DOESN"T BELONG to begin with?
you are missing the fundamental point here.
it is NOT about JUST "winning or losing" - it is that the USA HAS NO BUSINESS trying to build its empire at the expense of other nations or people and being in neighborhoods far, far away with its military footprint where it DOES NOT BELONG! period!
as Patrick Buchanan said:
" WE DIDN'T LIKE IT WHEN THE USSR WAS IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD IN CUBA..........SO.........what are WE doing in Russia's neighborhood of central asia and the caucasus and littoral states?"
"we should get out of this business of empire and get out of those lands before they kick us out".
and as a soldier - one of the first to die in iraq - said - who was called "peaceful warrior" in some articles in 2004 said,:
"EVEN if WE could do these things as leaders tell us ...what does it really say about us? that we can do whatever we want BECAUSE we CAN do it..because we are the world's Lone Superpower?"
I suppose -0 you might also say, Henry8 - that the US soldiers are SO COURAGEOUS --
with their advanced bombs, and drones, and helicopters, and night vision, and texas computers and push buttons , and aerial surveillance, reconnaisance, guidance, radar, big tanks, big bombs, bunker busters, nukes, Starred Generals, corporate mercenary metrics, fancy maps , expensive "combat gear" and uniforms, better nutritional value diets, muscle building exercises, BIG men, with BIG muscles, TRAINED like Superwarriors, etc. etc. etc. etc. ?
and THAT ALL AMOUNTS to "Courage".........against a people with BACKWARD guns, rifles, handmedowns, pilfered gasoline, living in caves and huts, walking barefoot or fighting in slippers and ragged gowns, and eating out of shared tin plates or wooden utensils --whose MAIN "advantage" is because
IT HAPPENS TO BE THEIR LAND which the americans DON"T have any business MEDDLING IN and trying to control and SHAPE according to the ideology of the "shining city on the hill",
and whose presence ONLY exacerbated what problems there were and made it WORSE by MANY degrees.
Afghanistan is historic Arab land? Iraq is Saudi and Iranian land? Careful where you are treading. Blindly painting all brown people as part of the same group of freedom fighters defending their homeland is as bigoted and ignorant as dismissing them all as the same group of barbarian terrorists. Your knowledge of the tribal, ethnic and factional nuances of the lands our Soldiers find themselves in seems limited. Perhaps you should invest some time in studying the vast array of publicly available information about these conflicts before you consider trying to discuss them.
Uh...
You are putting stupid statements into another person's mouth so you can attack them.
TEDDY SAID NO SUCH THING!
Are you engaged in a public forum, or arguing with demons in your own head?
Thank you webwalk.
I am limited in my own way -- but I do try to educate myself - not just about current news as they come daily - but always have since I was child because i was brought up to have a hunger for the cultures of other lands . however i express myself - and "mix up" whatever i have gathered over the years - it is really up to people to judge what I 'know' according to their own standards.
as it is - even if in my limited way - PART of my upbringing is knowing SOMETHING about MY fellow asians - whether they are middle easterners, their religious factions (such as my coming from teh philippines has shown me what shiites or sunnis or sufis , etc. are what Haj is , why i grew up seeing mosques in my home province where when one enters, one has to remove one's shoes, why muslims at times "spit" during ramadan (they may NOT swallow ANY food or water at all during the day) ...
maybe that is not enough for some people here....
maybe it is not enough that one of my dearest friends since i was a grown up is a very, very beautiful woman of Persian/french/russian blood - who is Iranian , HIGHLY educated as a mathematician, architect, WESTERN classical pianist and composer and classical persian music, poet of classical persian literature, - and had to wear the Hijjab whenever her Ayatollah in-laws were around - but among ourselves and her friends was the most "western" of women you can find - so full of zest for life and laughter and talking about cultures and creativity ....which gives me a LITTLE bit of idea about why Iranians are WHY they are...
and WHY american ideas about THEM and other middle easterners or , for that matter, other cultures are just about as "accurate" for their so-called "information" and "advancement" as putting a baseball to the foul zone when the intent is to go for the homerun to the right field.
admittedly , even TODAY - i try to learn more, and see what the subtleties are in cultures .
if i present them wrongly - I apologize.
Thanks, for your sharing of your personal history, and all your efforts here.
and by the way-- i AM OF the "brown people", grown in a culture mixed of "spanish" conquest, chinese trade for centuries mixed into our culture, a mishmash of "hollywood for 50 years after 400 hundred years *in the convent*" mixed with whatever native cultures there were - all in a context of the vast rich varieties of differences and similarities among asians , and come from a province where for nearly 800 years - islam was already established and many of my own schoolmates and childhood friends in CATHOLIC school were themselves MUSLIMS and eventually became teachers as my mother (a school teacher) encouraged them to be - and sometimes asked her - with our attendance as kids - to be part of their 'wedding ceremonies' to honor our friendships.
do you think i would be so THOUGHTLESS as to NOT try to understand and learn before speaking HERE or ANYWHERE - what the differences might be between KURDS and Afghanis or pakistanis - from Arabs - or sunni or shiite? when i myself grew up KNOWING that , particularly as non-muslims - we had to respect their differences and KNOW that grownup males DO NOT STARE at a muslim man's wife??...
LONG before most americans TODAY became "concerned" with people on a world map most americans can't EVEN PLACE UNLESS they are FORCEd to pay attention because their "loved ones" are DYING "over there" after their own Country's EXPERT , oooooo so expert leaders
decided they were to be invaded and "taught" how to BEHAVE?
Henry how are you so sure Europeans (and i'm not talkink about governments there) don't want Usean troops out? For a start France has no Usean troops anymore since the 60's, second check out what's going on in Italy ...
I'll add that there is nothing insulting for the soldiers, international law authorises soldiers to refuse orders when orders are in violation of international laws. And there are no good soldiers, i encourage you to read Dahr Jamail book beyond the green zone...
Mairead, thank you for sharing. the concept of a principled soldier is new to me. and righteous. imagine, thank you JL, imagine no wars, or US soldiers w/ morality superceding indoctrination.
MardiGras Bandit
You have just made the most reasonable statement I've seen about this issue and Lt. Choi.
We certainly agree about the silliness of the current policy, which was no more than making existing fact in the military into formal policy. We had gay Marines in our units, most knew who they were...no big deal except for the homophobes, not much different than the bigots. They were few and didn't really matter. No one was scared the gay guy was going to "jump them in the shower" or any of that other garbage. They usually went to different bars is about the only real difference.
Toughest Marine I had in Boot was a gay guy, its stereotypes again. But, your point on his leading soldiers is well taken, that kind of mentality gets people killed.
Well Henry,
i'm pretty sure you are not going to bend an inch on any of this, BUT:
Obedience gets a HELL of a lot more people killed than disobedience. On both sides of the weapon - obeying orders to kill, is also obeying orders to go into harms way.
We could use a LOT MORE disobedience, throughout our society, but very importantly, in the military.
Like i said, i suspect you will simply not grant legitimacy to the long-standing, deep traditions of thought and action regarding obedience and disobedience.
But you are wrong.
Of course you may say "We must have obedience BECAUSE..." and "We must have obedience DESPITE..." and you may talk about the importance of the military to our nation or our values or our way of life or civilization or the fate of humanity, OR WHATEVER.
And then others can point out the deeply horrific actions of our nation, and the deeply compromised nature of our "values", and the devastating consequences of our "way of life", and the absolutely unsustainable nature of our "civilization", and the complete disconnect between military obedience and the survival of humanity...
And i suspect, again, that you will simply not accept any of it. We've been through these discussions with you before.
the Words that are most DAMNING of american hypocrisy --both in instigating wars and its OWN social policies - for a supposedly "democratic, justice, truth and fairness is the american way" nation that goes abroad with WAR to LEcture other nations how to behave , is:
=======
‘Brother, I know that you’re gay, but you’re still my brother, and you’re my friend. And if your country, that sent you to my country, if America, that sent you to Iraq, will discharge you such that you can’t get medical benefits, you can come to my hospital any day. You can come in, and I will give you treatment.’ ”
Choi ended, “I hope that our country can learn from that Iraqi doctor.”
incidentally -- don't forget that - bad as hussein was - IRAQ was one of the most social-infrastructurally advanced countries in the middle east -- with a great percentage of highly trained professionals -- such as Doctors .
THE US Lying Invasion - just destroyed it. and talking about WMD's and "civilization". and most americans have absolutely NO sense of the IRONY in how the USA destroyed much of what is one of the oldest civilizations on earth - and then practically - bragging about it with "victory" and "pacifying" and "democraticing"........
Different thing entirely. Though I believe most Americans now know that this was a personal agenda of a few chickenhawks and was a lie from the start. I believe most Americans just want us out and to do our best to repair the damage we did, but I don't think we can do that much.
But the money would be better spent rebuilding than maintaing troops there if we are going to spend it.
the americans NOW want to be OUT after they realize it is COSTING THEM in the pocket and their "pride" .
but americans went ALL GAGA abotu BOMBING IRAQ
EVEN after it was revealed and all signs were clear that it was all a LIE.
so - americans ARE complicit as a nation in the dstruction of Ancient Mesopotamia.
and they ARE repeating it towards Afghanistan, pakistan. \
and STILL have NO qualms at all abotu "bombing iran"
"IF iran proceeds with nuclear power"
EVEN IF IRAN HAS EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to do so - while the USA's CLIENT ISRAEL has not even signed such treaties that iran has obeyed as its RIGHT among nations -- which the USA ITSELF ENJOYS .
that is HYPOCRISY, Henry8 - no matter how you slice or dice it.
H Y P O C R I S Y!
I believe if you check, you'll find that the majority of Americans want us out. And not everyone went GaGa over the infantile "Shock and Awe" a name that could only come from a bunch of back room warriors.
Nuculear power is not the same as Nuclear weapons. And I would certainly hate to see Iran gain them as would the whole middle east.
Like the rest of the world I'd say we aren't above practicing a little hypocrisy from time to time. The current administration seems to be making a meal of it.
The best chance for middle east peace is a nuclear armed Iran. Without the ability to protect itself from American aggression, it will only be a matter of time before the US comes after their resources.
Remember, the US has reserved the right to preemptively use nukes in a conventional war if substantial (whatever that means) numbers of US troops were at risk. This means that if we start a conventional war and are getting beaten, we reserve the option to turn things around with nukes.
Of course, this only works if we can sucker others into disarming so that we can be the only ones in the room with a gun. Why do you think we continue to violate the NPT by failing to disarm as we agreed to?
The best chance for middle east peace is a nuclear armed Iran. Without the ability to protect itself from American aggression, it will only be a matter of time before the US comes after their resources.
Remember, the US has reserved the right to preemptively use nukes in a conventional war if substantial (whatever that means) numbers of US troops were at risk. This means that if we start a conventional war and are getting beaten, we reserve the option to turn things around with nukes.
Of course, this only works if we can sucker others into disarming so that we can be the only ones in the room with a gun. Why do you think we continue to violate the NPT by failing to disarm as we agreed to?
It never fails to amuse me how the world's greatest fighting force, the world's greatest military machine, has so far been unable to "pacify" even one city in Iraq, the city of Baghdad.
Sioux Rose
TEDDY: If someone with a voice like mine was on radio you can be sure the public that doesn't YET get the irony would soon see the menacing analogy between the reduction in their own living standards and the callous disregard with which they have stood by as the nation was thoroughly usurped by a bloodless coup. Some tried to fight back, protest, wake up their sleeping brothers and sisters as this band of murdering, lying, amoral, soulless cheats and sadistic sociopaths hiding behind religion, blue blood money, and patriotism (when propaganda, fear and mind control don't get the "job" done) led the nation to RUIN.
We can only hope that a period of resurrection will follow by the Grace of those who were committed to a better world, kept the ideal of social justice alive in their hearts, and did what they could to improve the lot of others as their way of life.
Haven't listened in a while, but Mike Malloy talks pretty plainly about such things on the radio.
SiouxRose -- just KNOWING that there are individuals like you - everywhere -- that keeps alive and WELL , despite everything, that belief, or confidence or "faith" that in the end, HUMANITY , goodness , is and will remain the DESTINY , the TRUE destiny of our species...and that one day - despite all the challenges that are now consuming us all -
and MOST CRUCIALLY because we are BEING TAUGHT by Mother Earth- whether we want to learn or not at this moment -
that our TRUE DESTINY as a species is to do TWO THINGS:
1) take good care of each other
2) take good care of Mother earth.
for me - that is and has always been the ONLY matter of ANY importance or meaning.
it is a very , very long road, one that is perhaps EITHER made necessary because of our failures or human frailties or whatever circumstances in existence presented to us to "encourage" or strengthen forces that are destructive and crule
OR
UNnecessary when all the lessons were already probably being shown by Earth all along, but which , in the Rampage for "advantage" - got lost in the recognition by MOST but NOT ALL people or societies.
MY own personal view is that:
our existence , as children of Mother Earth and the Universe, is ONE deep in its essence , of having a destiny that is GOOD for EACH and ALL that ever lived or will yet live , even if that has not been the case -- YET.
but that ultimately -- it is about being ONE with the universe and that this is something that goes beyond our human notions of reality for the moment.
I believe that after all is said and done: our True Destiny as a species is to take good care of what Mother Earth and the Universe has gifted us with..and TOWARDS that taking good care of each other...
and that the TWO are INSEPARABLE from each other, when we finally , or eventually reach a stage - whatever we BECOME thousands of years from now - or millions maybe, if we survive the "tests" or challenges today in our relatively SHORT evolution and "dominance" as a species - a STAGE that (it may be an endless evolution, as far as we know) -
will SHOW us our TRUE nature - and that - like Mother Earth
it is GOOD, and GENEROUS and GIVING - with so MUCH plenty that ALL greed , ALL instincts or "wiring" for "greed"
are simply EVOLVED into NONexistence and irrelevance.
somehow, despite all the problems and cruelties - - i still believe that.
but most of all - because we CAN be certain that THAT "essence" in the nature of our true destiny - IS present in all of us -- and SOME human beings - even in THIS Phase of our evolution as biological entities and societies, ACTUALLY
has BEEN demonstrated by great examples .
most of us JUST didn't learn it or have , for one reason or another, been DISABLED to LEARN it and practice it universally
and to see HOW SIMPLE it really has been:
we are ALL ONE and the SAME and we ALL belong to EACH other and we ALL belong to mother earth who gives us PLENTY to share and to BE what we can yet be for the future -
EVEN - become "like gods" and live on other planets - but ALWAYS with AWE and Gratitude , despite our technological genius and accomplishments to see that
"MOTHER EARTH" is really
the UNIVERSE ...in which Her Children are Children of the Stars
created, evolved, lived , explored, in order to partake of her blessings which have No limits! and in that see ourselves as part of it...and see that
as Divine and Generous and Giving as the "mother" is -
we ARE of that mother - and therefore need have no FEAR that we shall "want" because - truly - if we SHARED - it is ALL THERE for us to play, just LIKE children all in AWE of simply being able to EXIST in all this unbelievable , mystical, glorious beauty of existence.
Sioux Rose
TEDDY: You sure are on a super-surge of writing today! I love your phrasing, "RAMPAGE FOR ADVANTAGE." Did you know that when I use the adage, "Mars rules" that Mars is the Zodiac's ram, and thus terms like "rampage" derive from this creature and its legendary impulse to just rush into things? In any case, may I have your permission to use this quote if the subject of Aries/Mars rules comes up, as it tends to (at least in my cosmic mind)?
Hi SiouxRose...it's always an honor , u know, when you cite what might in actuality just be accidental expressions that somehow might mean something useful from me.
I just wrote something that seemed at the moment ALL i could really find words for, mainly because I am mostly just "grasping" at straws trying to clarify what I feel about things.
I think of it more as having :"stumbled" on some things -- what to you are already all too apparent and for which there is no need for you to even "ask" for "permission" since what is expressed is already something you most likely have a much better, deeper awareness of. it's just words after all...and the THOUGHT , i think, is the really important thing , which you already had . "asking" me for that is , believe me, far too much of an honor i don't really deserve.
but thank you, just the same.
Teddy...remember what Muslims do to gay's. I wouldn't want to depend on Iraq to help me, though the sentiment from this one guy is great.
Henry8 -- no more than what CHRISTIANS do to gays.
remember the young man CRUCIFIED and beaten and left to die - watching the field and the sunrise - alone and in terror and pain
because he was gay? his OWN FELLOW CHRISTIANS did that to him.
what difference does it make then?
what HAVE christians REALLY been doing to gays in america? they've ostracised them, sent them hiding in the closet to live terror-filled lives, in pretense and destroyed in their inner lives - and expected outwardly to "be good christian citizens">
what difference is there , really?
BUT here is an EXAMPLE of where EVEN the "gay hating muslims" CAN be more tolerant:
did you KNOW that even if in IRAN - with its fudnamentalist Shiite -
a person who is gay and DECLARES himself as such - or is KNOWN in his community as such - is as often as not - IF he can find a "protector" (such as a "lover" , etc.) - apply for STATE FUNDED or STATE supplemented funding to have a sex-change operation?
the point is: they FOUND or "rigged" a way in which a "gay" person be allowed to "become who he(she) is" -- become a WOMAN with sex-change.
it is highly limiting in its own way - but they actually SOCIALLY , and LEGALLY "open a door" .
there was in fact a famous case - it was called a "romantic love story" and quite celebrated in Iran years ago:
a GAY man had a lover - he was obviously rather "effeminate" and so was barely tolerated in a very macho society.
BUT his lover HAPPENED to be a highranking AYATOLLAH! can you believe that?
sure, they pulled strings. but eventually the "MAN" of the love-story - used his money - and the "woman" of the story agreed to "become" a woman.
and then -- they got married. they first LOVED each other as Man and man -- but their society does not allow THAT - BUT LEFT OPEN a possibility for that LOVE to live ON - by dictating that a "gay" is "really a woman and NEEDS to be given the chance to BECOME who SHE really is - a WOMAN, after all" ...
but the main point is - they did not LOSE SIGHT of the CENTRAL thing between the two persons: LOVE. EVEN if it began as one between man and man.
and that's the end of the story.
does the USA REALLY have THAT?.
"does the USA REALLY have THAT?."
I hope so Teddy. I hope so. But if not I believe we are getting there .
but as you can just realize with BARACK OBAMA as WAR PRESIDENT
who has launched the actual beginnings of a war with IRAN - and MORE countries pushing deeper into central asia right to the borders of china and russa - BEYOND escalating in Afgahnistan and NOW spreading INTO pakistan -- and OPENING a "new" front against venezuela and latin america THROUGH colombia and honduras - (the MO of a WAR president and war CULTURE) -
gets his "NOBEL PEACE" prize
"HOPE" isn't the same as IS.
therefore - from the standpoint of any observer - for any american to point fingers at - say - IRAN or MUSLIMS for having repressive institutions - such as against homosexuals
while the SAME is TRUE - though clothed differently - IN THE USA for its ENTIRe existence as a nation ....and what's more in its SYMBOL of its MILITARY EMPIRE and "greatness"....
is simply inconsistency.
I feel that you are very well-meaning american, Henry8 , and that you sincerely wish for peace and kinship among all people.
but sometimes -- i think that you are still viewing things from "within" the established order of american "might and pride" and all its Myths -- and one of these is the "greatness and HONOR" of being "a marine" or a member of ARMED FORCES of a nation whose ARMED FORCES have been REALLY for the purpose of creating and expanding and maintaining an EMPIRE
whose purpose and demonstrable actions - through its corporations, its "business model", its "EMPIRE and FULL SPECTRUM DOMINANCE AT ALL COSTS" - its "shining city on the hill" HUBRIS - its tortures, assassinations, fomenting insurrections and isntabilities, its provocations - its DEMANDS
such as against Russia "to abandon the cold war" (HILLARY CLINTON yesterday) - WHEN IN REALITY it has been the USA all along that NEVEr abandoned it...
these and many more, including the ROMANTIC notion of "HONOR and BROTHERHOOD OF THE MARINES" and SOLDIERING ABROAD where the USA HAS NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER setting foot to ADVANCE its CORPORATE MILITARISTIC AGENDAS ...
you are merely echoing those things. even if you are beginning to question their WISDOM !
it is high time, HENRY8 - my friend - to LOOK CLEARLY at what this MILITARISM and GLORIFICATION has DONE to the USA , its people, and the world wherever the USA puts its DIRTY
DISHONORABLE, UNDEPENDABLE and UNTRUSTWORTHY fingers.
we ALL have NO TIME spending wasteful mental and physical and spiritual energy trying to HANG ON to a MILITARISTIC GLORY that is well past its TIME in human history
when our OWN PLANET our very own MOTHER EARTH is BURNING right under our feet because of SUCH things as MILITARISM for EMPIRE that just RAVAGES entire continents.
and TODAY - its GREATEST practitioner of THAT
is NONE OTHER than the USA
with its "ADVANCE GUARD" of the MARINES!
there is NOTHING glorious nor respectable about that.
"THERE IS NOTHING GLORIOUS OR NOBLE about war - war is HELL, it is nothing but PILLAGE< RAPE and THEFT of the treasures of other nations"
General Smedley Butler, US MARINES! echoing SOCRATES 2,300 years before him and the USA and ITS marines! and bombs and tortures and thievery abroad!
PERIOD!
Sioux Rose
TEDDY: I hereby nominate you for the "Transcending Mars Rules" award. Bravo. Please take a bow. And there's a bonus if you can get Thomas More to see the logic behind why YOU'VE won it! (Virtually won, of course, but virtually means a lot in THIS medium!)
Thank you SiouxRose..although something like that is remote for me to even imagine being worthy of. I am just like anyone else that just - roughly speaking - gets banal and sentimental - for lack of better ways of saying, that there is just so much suffering that is so unnecessary . and it needs to STOP..it needs to stop from our own personal ways to try as best as we can to live as consciously ethical as we could...even if we are mostly trapped in such cruel, unjust systems that just feed upon each other in a never-ending cycle, and YET it is within the power of those that HAVE power and within the power of those that are able to live within their own little spaces to live ehtically, to think of others, to think of the WORLD , to think of small children, the old, the poor, the "ignorant", the innocent..
and think, think, think _
WHAT AM I in this world if i am not even able to SEE that human beings are just that - creatures with frailties just like myself - but who shouldn't be subjected to cruelties by the powerful?.
sometimes - i honestly want to just STOP reading news, just go into my own little "hole" of a life just because I can't helpt crying everytime I read something that is just not RIGHT at all:
a hardworking american lady that i briefly knew as an acquaintance - with such kindness in her heart came down with lymphoma and needs treatment, but can't get off her work becuse she HAS to - and yet doesn't have insurance...so she and her husband are facing a nightmare that has visited so many, bankruptcy, etc. etc....and is REDUCED to writing handwritten please for a little contribution here and there...
poor children in africa who don't even know what an Ipod might be have to struggle to breathe or swallow because they are so sick because, MORE than the civil conflicts in their own countries, their own societies are merely PAWNS in the global "great game" for profits and its consequent "artificial scarcity"...
children or old people in afgahnistan who should be FLYING KITES and joy and celebration of their long cultures are running to and fro hiding from bombs - and because of the meddling by powerful countries - are trapped in the arms of the Repressive Taliban...
the People of New guinea are NOW very worried that they are seeing planeloads of Corporate Cargill "palm oil" seeds to make plantations out of their beautiful islands - and destroy what they STILL SAY is :"our way of living has always been about sharing and giving...."
now "we have to live with these things that they call money"...
and Barack Obama is a NOBEL Peace Prize Winner - BECAUSE?
a member of the NOBEL COMMITTE REVEALED - upon insistent interviewing that "yes - we decided to APPLY the FINANCIAL norms of awarding....after all - if wall street and stocks can WAGER on futures -- we thought, if we wagered on Barack Obama doing the RIGHT decisions for peace -- the PEACE DIVIDENDS would increase...and as soon as word that the award was going to be given, leaked - the STOCKS in SWEDENE ROSE UP overnight".....
in other words they are using WAR and PEACE as PLAYING CARDS for "peace dividends"?
what kind of mentality is this?
if our leaderships have brought us ALL - particularly the RICH who "lead" in everything that is "anything" in the world of "classes" - to the brink of self-destruction and destroying our beloved Mother Earth....
what business does ANY country, LEAST of all the UNITED STATES that has LED in such things in accelerating such disastrous ways of behavior and PROVOKING and CHALLENGING other countries to do LIKEWISE WHILE preaching for them
"NOT TO DO IT"...as if RESERVING to itself the RIGHT to DO HARM as it sees fit....
what business does any country have in claiming "righteousness" when , where people , mostly in rich countries, HAVE had the MANY CHANCES of making CHOICES to do LESS harm as a consequence of their lifestyles LEADING to rresources wars, for example, that any of us are WORTHY of even existing on this planet?.
we, or are LED to , behave in such a way that it is almost like a child that does not recognize his own mother and does not wish to HONOR her for giving him life and sustenance .
WAR is one way of showing that INGRATITUDE towards our Mother Earth.
it's unbearable to watch and KNOW that this is actually what we DO as a species.
Teddy you say "no more than what CHRISTIANS do to gays.
I'm not defending the bigoted so-called "Christians" and their Old Testament biases, but to compare the treatment of LGBT people in so-called "Christian" countries to that in Muslim countries and call it equal is at best naive. This bent of progressives to paint all religions as being about loving your enemies, tolerance, peace and non-violence is absurd. I have been studying Islam and the Qu'ran for the past few months now and I can tell you that Islam is the opposite to the teachings of Jesus Christ on most issues. There is no turn the other cheek, Allah commands his followers to go to war for him and to retaliate against anyone who attacks them etc. Under Sharia'a law it is stoning to death for adulters (compared to Jesus' "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"), hand and foot to be lopped off for thieves, death for anyone who renounces Islam (actually practiced in 6 Islamic countries and it is prison in all the others) and it is death or prison in all Muslim countries to question or criticize Mohammed or Islam (not conducive to a real reality/truth based education system) so it is part of the reason that Islam is growing - no one is allowed to leave it or even tell the truth about Mohammed's life, and they have the highest birthrate in the world.
Sharia'a law also calls for the death penalty for anyone who is born homosexual. Human Rights groups estimate that since the Islamic Revolution in Iran between 3,000 and 4,000 homosexuals have been executed. There is no tolerance. What you allude to, changing one's sex is for transexuals, a smaller group. This group does have an option to change sex and excape death but changing sex for homosexuals is as much as an aversion as it is, I assume, for you. (And all this intolerance and sexual obsession in a country that has "temporary marriage", Mato, so people can have sexual flings. These "temp marriages" can last hours or years and are easy to get and easy to end, and this doesn't even take into consideration the 4 wives Muslim men are allowed to have to satisfy their lust for other women. And they call the West "decadent" and all Western women whores!)
There are at least 6 Islamic countries that execute homosexuals and all the rest have prison, and this is usually combined with other punishments like whipping. So, no, as bad as many so-called Christian countries can be (especially in Africa which is very homophobic for the most part) Muslim countries and Muslim laws are much harsher, intolerant and cruel to homosexuals and LGBT people in general.
Islam is a cruel, intolerant and violent religion and it can be traced right back to its founder and its god who demands the most incredible punishments for "disbelievers" and others. Mohammed was a bandit who led his followers in raiding caravans and even killing some of the men and ransoming the women and children. He personally led his followers in the mass murder of hundreds of Jewish men in Medina who wouldn't accept him as their prophet, and he sold their women and children into slavery. He led his followers on hundreds of raids. In short, he was a man of violence and intolerance of anyone who refused to accept him and his new religion. His religion cannot in any way be compared to what Jesus of Nazereth taught. It is the opposite, and the Qu'ran states very clearly that Jesus was not the Son of God, was not divine, was not crucified, did not die on the cross and was not resurrected, all the while we hear the chorus of Muslims shouting "we believe in Jesus, why don't you believe in Mohammed?" Well, they believe in "A" Jesus but it is not the Jesus of the Gospels, which Islam proclaims to be corrupt and false. If Christianity had it in its dogma and scripture stating that Mohammed was not a prophet and the Qu'ran was a corrupt, false book, you can bet every Bible and church would be burned and the streets would run with the blood of every person thought to be Christian. Eventhough Islam is very AntiChrist in its teachings, Christians don't react violently to it and you even have the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury bowing and scraping to Islam expressing their respect for this most disrespectful of religions.
Any violent or intolerant actions perpetrated by so-called Christians throughout history cannot be compared equal to those of Muslims because Mohammed is their role model and he was a violent, even murderous man and called on his followers to "kill unbelievers wherever you find them" and to kill any Muslim who renounces Islam. Jesus was the opposite, so anyone who claims to be a follower of him who commits violent/intolerant acts goes against his teachings and his example. Not at all the same. It's time the "liberals" in the West who are apologists for Islam do a little studying and find out what this religion is really about. You have no idea of the very real danger you are putting your children and grandchildren. Islam is not pretty, and it certainly is not the same as Christianity - at least what was taught by Jesus Christ, instead of the teachings of Paul and Augustine, which is what most of what passes itself off as Christianity now is really based on.
Oh, I might add that I do not believe in any religion but that religion separated us all from the true and loving Creator, so I'm not a Christian and therefore not arguing from that point of view.
AND not in defense of Islam or any religion for that matter....
when you say "ISLAM is a CRUEL RELIGION, it's there in its" basic tenets...
what is one to say about the BIBLE and its GOD that seems happy to lay down LAWS of such constriction while at the same laying down TEMPTING goodies - and THEN gives "free choice" to his creations and THEN when they DO choose to get the temptation -
he PUNISHES them for what he CREATED them to BE?
there in the very beginnings of Christianity or "judeo-christianity" is a GOD OF CRUELTY and JEALOUSY and REVENGE
as the PRICE for "god's love".
what KIND of religion is that?
in that sense - how is islam WORSE?
as I said - these things are merely packaged DIFFERENTLY.
muslims stone homosexuals publicly - as a vestige of older customs that are still alive in less "modernized" societies.
Christians "stone" their homosexuals by denying them rights in a SOCALLED advanced Society.
what is the difference?
there is STILL unnecessary suffering because some are "different" as they are perceived.
i woudl have thought that if you considered yourself a "freethinker" that OBVIOUS thing would have been first in your observation. otherwise it seems that you are only "thinking" things from the standpoint of RELATIVE differences of social "modernity" or norms between "christian" or "western" societies brought up in the context of jude0christian "law and norms and justice"
from that of more "backward" societies that happen to profess Islam.
on the OTHER hand - there is a SUFI tradition in islam , based in yemen - where it is considered rather mystical - and where the emphasis is on "one on one" with god - and actually has gathered , quite openly, influences from religions and evfen NON_religious thoughts OUTSIDE of islam -0 such as buddhism, greek philosophy, etc...where "learners" of the "sufi way" are taught that all religions are just different paths to the same realization of "god" - and that this includes "maintaining one's native culture" without necessarily BECOMING a Muslim.
it's one reason why the southeast asians who have adapted to it are actually considered much more "tolerant" because of its greater ability to practice "tolerance" as opposed to , say, Shiites, or Sunnis or the Saudi arabian ultra conservative Wahdis.
the point IS:
where there are those differences among them - they are no different from differences between a MORMON and a CATHOLIC or Protestant.
and YET BOTH christians and muslims ostracise Homosexuals.
but WHERE ISLAM - or arabic, as far as I know, has NO word for "gay" because they simply don't RECOGNIZE it as existing - even if it DOES and their societies, with or without islam find ways "around the thing" (it as actually OPENLY tolerated among the EARLIER shiites of persia, did you know that, much of their classical poems attest to this, but taht, PERHAPS has MORE to do with PERSIAN culture rather than ISLAM , finding its way INTO shiite islam of generations ago and even TODAY in allowing "sexchange" quite openly) -- WHERE ISLAM does not tolerate it in edicts....by not even having a NAME for it
CHRISTIANITY talks about it - based on "christ" saying ONCE in ALL of his teaching --
and makes an OBSESSION about it - while NEGLECTING what CHRIST talked about DOZENS and DOZENS of times
JUSTICE!
Teddy "what is the difference?"
Well, Teddy, there is a BIG difference between being murdered by an Islamic society and being ostracized in a "Christian" one!! Lord, how can you compare the two? As a gay man myself I can surely have no problem deciding which I would prefer.
And when you talk of "Christian" societies ostracizing homosexuals fewer and fewer even do that. The African so-called Christian societies are the worst but in the West just about all that is left of the ostracizing societies in the developed world is USAmerica and even that puritanical, conservative, bigoted country is slowly changing and there is more acceptance with most large companies giving domestic partner benefits and several states now have marriage or domestic partner rights.
My partner and I are Ex-USAmericans now living in Spain/Europe and the difference in mentality, attitude and actions is notable. Here in Spain, under the present Socialist government, we as a homosexual couple of 18 years have full and equal civil and human rights and are married. Spain, as a glowing example of a true progressive society, had a navy man who acknowleged his transexuality a couple of years ago and the navy treated him with true humanity and transferred him/her to the female navy service. The only controversy with this male to female transexual in the Spanish military was whether the national health service or the navy would pay for his/her sex change! Compare that to the backward attitude of the US military! Many European countries have same-sex marriage or at least domestic partnerships and the European charter of human rights outlaws discrimination against us. Poland, under the leadership of the past conservative Prime
inister and his evil twin as President went out of their way to persecute homosexuals a few years ago, but the Prime Minister was very unpopular and was voted out at the last election, though his evil twin as President still is in office, and still vastly unpopular for his rightwing, religionist views still has time left in his position. When these two were persecuting homosexuals the EU informed them that Poland could and would be expelled from the European Union for this backward position if they didn't cease.
Canada is another shining example of a tolerant society for gays and even some Latin American countries, now that they have thrown off the shackles of the rightwing dictators installed and supported by the US, are moving toward implementing equal rights for LGBT people, like Brazil, Argentina and even newly liberated Uruguay with their new Socialist government after decades of oppression of everyone but the elite by a severe rightwing US puppet regime.
So, Teddy, treatment of homosexuals/LBGT people in so-called Christian countries is not even close to the persecution, oppression and prosecution of them in Muslim societies where the Islamic law calls for death. It is amazing that only 6 or so of them actually kill gays, but even the most "progressive" (and I use the term very loosely since even the most progressive Islamic societies would be at the very bottom of the list in human/civil rights in the West) imprison them. Turkey, arguably the most progressive Islamic country, doesn't even have freedom of religion as it imprisons Muslims who renounce Islam and who openly question or criticize Mohammed/Islam (not long ago a respected woman professor of history was arrested for making statements about Mohammed thought to be "offensive",though true, so even university students are not told the truth about him or his religion, as would be normal in a western university setting.)
Sufis are different, but I am not aware of their being accepting of LGBT people, and they are a distinct minority in the vast pool of Islam.
Wow. Sitting here reading MardiGras' convoluted critique of Lt.Choi's decision to 'tell' and out the truth of his situation points to the convoluted lengths human beings are required to go to to rationalize the policies of an enterprise designed to make robots of human beings and engage in violent acts of piracy. That human beings within those ranks must pretend at all costs to be robots tells you something about what might be behind the many domestic violence offenders, suicides, addicted and homeless among our veterans, not to even mention the (unphotographable! don't ask! don't tell!) limbless or dead. Boot camps cannot fully break some humans. Career robot life can't be tolerated long for the human being. "Service" men and women need to be better apprised of what it is they're expected to be serving by recruiters. Ask and Tell should be mandatory....at least at the onset to determine who's 'fit' for living the lies required in killing civilians in order to save them from the dreaded fate of self-governance. It's simple: if you care a whit about the welfare of other human beings, you're out. If you care about the world of robotry above all else you're in. Sorry, this makes me angry. We are a very very angry world and the US an exceptionally angry country, but we are required by our media and to a certain extent even by our law not to ask or tell too much about THAT.
St. Francis of Assisi said, "Always from the child's hand the sword should be removed. I think every nation is an infant."