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Obama, Seeing Darkness, Conjures up the Mists of Time
Back in 1965, as a 15-year-old kid, I had a chance to spend half a year as a student at a boy's gymnasium (high school) in Darmstadt, the cultural capital of the German state of Hesse, which had the distinction of having been one of a handful of cities in Germany (Dresden was another) that were selected by the Allies to test out the terror tactic of firebombing. The town was chosen for incendiary bombardment precisely because it had no military value and thus, no air defenses (and because it consisted mostly of wooden structures). With Germany still wreaking horrific damage on the Allied bomber fleet, this made it an inviting target.
Friends and teachers recounted to me the terrors of that night, when the entire city of several hundred thousand, built mostly of wood, went up in a giant bonfire so hot and powerful that it sucked people into it with a 200 mph vortex of inward rushing air. People who hid in shelters were asphyxiated by the lack of oxygen, while those who tried to flee sank knee deep into asphalt streets. Two mountains outside town were man-made piles of rubble left over from the city's ruins, which were for the most part just carted away. There was little left to rebuild.
While I was stunned by the horror of it, I at the time still felt that after all, Germans had brought this disaster on themselves. After all, they had allowed the Nazi monsters to gain control of the nation and then proceeded with a genocidal campaign of extermination of Jews-even German Jews who were their own neighbors--of Gypsies, of gays, and of course, of Communists, and had launched a war that ultimately killed 10s of millions of people around the world.
I mention all this because one thing I noticed back then, not among young people in Germany, but among adults my parents' age and older, was a widespread denial about what Germany had done. And I remember feeling, as many Americans and Europeans still do, and as many Chinese and other Asians still feel about Japan, that these two countries have never been willing to face up to the crimes that they, as a nation, permitted to happen in their names.
Older and wiser now, I am well aware that our own country has committed many crimes, some on a scale approaching those of Germany and Japan: the near extermination of Native Americans, the mass, centuries-long enslavement and cultural and physical destruction of millions of African slaves, the use of nuclear bombs on civilian targets, the decade-long saturation bombing and herbicidal poisoning of most of Indochina...
It's a long and terrible list, and for the most part, in our schools, in our politics, in our histories, we don't talk about, and even justify and deny our own atrocities.
Now we have a president who is perhaps doing something worse. Admitting that the last administration of President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney ordered up a program of illegal and inhuman torture of captives in the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars and in the so-called War on Terror that was launched by them in the wake of the 9-11 attacks in 2001, and offering up documentary evidence of the chain of command that set the country on this criminal course, President Obama now says that to move beyond this "dark and painful chapter in our history," he will not seek or permit any prosecution of those who committed torture of captives.
"Nothing will be gained," Obama said, "by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."
I'm not that concerned about whether individual torturers in the CIA or the military get prosecuted. If the president had said he would not prosecute people who "thought" they were acting under proper authority and behaving legally, but then added that he would pursue those who authorized and ordered them to torture, I would not have fussed. But that is not what he said. The implication of his statement, and the fact that he has not, this far into his term, ordered his Attorney General to appoint a prosecutor to investigate those who were responsible for the crime, given what he clearly knows about its authors, is the worst possible of travesties, and rises to the level of a war crime itself.
Now I don't want to equate America's torture of a few hundred or a few thousand captives by making them endure waterboarding or by placing plastic neckbands and leashes on them and slamming their heads into walls, with what the victims of Buchenwald or Auschwitz endured, but that is really not the issue. The issue is, do we as a nation now subscribe to the idea that the way to deal with evil perpetrated by ourselves is to bury it?
Isn't that precisely what we have been for decades accusing the Germans and the Japanese of doing: burying in the mists of time their criminal behavior as a people and as a nation?
And now our president-whose own wife and daughters are descendants of slave victims of another era of American atrocities-is telling us we should do the same thing as Germany and Japan: forget and move on.
But the president is wrong. Darkness does not go away when the fog comes. It just gets darker.
Let's shine a light. Sign the petition: No Amnesty for Torturers!
- Posted in


41 Comments so far
Show AllSure, Dave. Sign an online petition. That'll work.
Yeah, I have to agree that signing a petition is literally the least we can do.
But petitions get you on mailing lists, and mailing lists inform about actions. It may be the case that we end up having to show our support for the actions of EU governments like Spain. I can't imagine "Play It Safe Obama" will want to stir up the firestorm that would come if he aggressively went after Bush et al.
LOL ! That petition will go nowhere. How about sacking our pols in 2010 and 2012 and beyond ? MR LINDOFF, TEAR DOWN THIS TWO-PARTY WALL AND HELP MAKE EVERY ELECTION DAY INDEPDENENTS DAY !!
And your suggested alternative is...
Visit Dave Lindorff's website at www.thiscantbehappening.net
Dave, you are a good and sincere guy. I like your articles. I mostly agree. But you have to know petitions and protests are simply ignored. My alternative? Monkey wrench the system wherever and whenever you can. Stop paying taxes. We are beyond voting. We are beyond protesting. None of it does any good.
Nothing will be gained... except on issues such as re-establishing the rule of law, justice, honor, complicity...
Another petition/ group to join:
www.IndictBushNow.org
"Nothing will be gained," Obama said, "by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."
This is without doubt one of the most shameful and preposterous statements ever made by any U.S. president. Why didn't he just say: "I want to be reelected in '012 and if I prosecute torturers, the rabid T-Bangers will paint me as an unpatriotic, unAmerican mad dog who needs to be gunned down or at least run out of office. Yes, I am a coward, which is to say, I am a politician . . . spineless, gutless, totally self-absorbed, believing first and foremost in myself and my career and my place in History. Will officially sanctioned torture by Americans take place again? Sure. So what?"
Hey, Barry . . . go have a beer with George Wanker Bush, then take a long walk on a short pier.
H.O.P.E. = Hell On Planet Earth.
His place in history?
What would that be--setting back the odds of any African Americans ever getting elected again?
Because it sure seems like getting elected was as far as it went. Downhill from there.
In short, Obomber declared that "We cannot prosecute powerful people, because they will raise such a fuss. Prosecution is for the little people." Yea, I don't think the average guy in cuffs being brutalized for some misdemeanor will get too far by pleading with the cops, "Nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."
I should add that the president's hypocrisy in this matter is staggering. Not only did he earlier in the campaign insist that America was a "country of laws" while he is now saying that the law doesn't matter. His "Justice" Department continues to aggressively seek the deportation to Germany of a man, John Demjanjuk, who as a Ukranian guard at a German concentration camp, is charged with having helped to kill upwards of 20,000 camp detainees. No one could argue that Demjanjuk, as a Ukranian, was anything more than an employee--willing or otherwise--of the German SS. He clearly was acting on orders in his capacity as a guard. Like the CIA torturers, Demjanjuk surely thought he was acting in accordance with German law, and he surely was following orders. Yet the US, and this president, evidently feel that he deserves to face trial for his actions.
Why Demjanjuk but not the CIA torturers? Indeed, why Demjanjuk, but not the authors of the legal justification for torture in the Bush/Cheney years, like current Federal Appeals Judge Jay Bybee, or Berkeley Law Professor John Yoo, or former Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, or Cheney chief of staff David Addington. Why not the real torture chiefs: G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld?
Visit Dave Lindorff's website at www.thiscantbehappening.net
A Jewish prisoner at the camp. a survivor has sworn that he knew all the guards and this guy was't among them.
Guilty or not, the point is that Obama and the Justice Dept. are fighting mightily to have the guy extradited to Germany to stand trial for war crimes, while Obama claims that we should let the past be buried here for our guys.
Hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Visit Dave Lindorff's website at www.thiscantbehappening.net
You got that right, Dave. Obama, and nearly everyone else, has forgotten that President of the US is an executive position, and its mandate is to execute the laws formulated by Congress. We have made it a monarch-like "leadership" job, but that's exactly what the Founders so assiduously tried to avoid.
Much is made of Obama's legal training and knowledge of Constitutional law, and how this makes it even more appalling that he is turning legal questions into political issues, but it should be noted that legal training in the US is largely about learning to manipulate (and circumvent) the law, and that most of the legal profession makes its living in this way. Obama is the worst combination of sharp legal and political mind, and this will strangle any progress he thinks he's working toward.
Yes, exactly, the point is that once again we are faced with the old attitude that there are two standards, or two laws, one for the United States governing elites and their various cronies and one for the remainder of the world.
And that attitude is precisely not one of burying the past: it is in fact a continuation of age-old U.S. practices.
Had Obama decided to prosecute the people who tortured and who ordered the torturing, he would have finally laid the double-standards past to rest.
In other words, no change, as is becoming habitual under Obama.
Is Obama planning to pardon Lyndie England? Because if he is not, then he must prosecute those other torturers.
Good point.
Demjanjuk is wheelchair bound, 89 years old and in precarious health, probably near death. And yet the president wants him carted off to another country to stand trial for war crimes. He probably wouldn't survive the flight, he is so ill. But, by God, the law is the law and must be upheld.
So. Yes. Why not the torturers?
"I should add that the president's hypocrisy in this matter is staggering."
And that is an understatement.
"Nothing will be gained," Obama said, "by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."
Maybe this should be engraved on the doors of every courthouse in the USA, then dismiss every police force and procecuter in the country...why bother dredging up the past by procecuting criminals?
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
another day, another betrayal.
Though Greenwald is up there straining credibility trying to get a single cheer out of the crowd. Silly man.
Oregoncharles
I've told Dave this in the past: petitions are a form of begging on your knees. it only makes you shorter. How about a demand? An ultimatum? As Arundhati once said: Why play their games, where they have all the power and make all the rules. Why not find and use our own power and force them to play our game?
Powers that be don't care who's in the WH, McCain or Obama, as long as it's a sycophant. But we don't have to go along with this!
Comparing Americas to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in any way? Horsefeathers.
And shame on you.
Shame indeed! America knows better that to commit war crimes and torture - we persicute others for those international crimes afterall.
Yes, horsefeathers.
Japan has pumped HUGE, HUMONGOUS amounts of money, either through direct aid, or indirectly through transfer of technology, into many of those East Asian countries it brutalised / conquered during WW2. Japan has played an important role in Korea being part of the G20, in the fast growing East Asian economies of countries such Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, etc.
What has the US done in reparation for bombing many parts of Indochina into oblivion?
The "shame on you" line is wonderful coming from an American.
America cannot be compared to the Nazi or Japan this is true; simply because they could not compete with the Americans, cannot come close to them, and would not amount to much more than a "pimple on the buttocks" of America, when it comes to crimes in all categories, and especially against humanity, and the environment, and any who might stand in their way.
America is in a class all its own, and for those of you out there that pray; you perhaps should pray that no other nation ever rises to the level of America and the Americans; The earth could not possibly take another one like them.
Good Luck America, you really need it.
Oh great ! Mr. "mass movement builder" guy wants to tell us to believe in some pixy dust and let ourselves get further robbed and stripped ! Well, here's a piece of my mind. Go right ahead and keep spreading more of that silly "hope and change" pixy dust but you're not fooling us out there. I went through dark days of my life and battled them as rough as I could win or lose.
"I mention all this because one thing I noticed back then, not among young people in Germany, but among adults my parents' age and older, was a widespread denial about what Germany had done."
Likewise, today we're stuck with two lame brain extremes, the "Joe the Plumber" Limbaugh dittoheads and the brain-damaged Obamabots who refuse to learn their lessons of voting against their own well being and dragging others into their misery or for that matter continuing to pander to the wrong side every time. Let's see you try learning some history lessons and don't you dare lecture us about some folly of voting 3rd parties mister !
"Now we have a president who is perhaps doing something worse."
Well well well, now you're learning but let's get one thing straight. He is doing far worse by openly betraying his base and relying on sucker voters to let him SOIL the base !
"President Obama now says that to move beyond this "dark and painful chapter in our history," he will not seek or permit any prosecution of those who committed torture of captives.
"Nothing will be gained," Obama said, "by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."
"
Well, that probably makes you proud of bashing us 3rd party voters, doesn't it ?!? Actually, he made this clear all throughout his campaign trail and not once did he ever promise to hold them accountable so you're wrong to say that he's said it now.
"I'm not that concerned about whether individual torturers in the CIA or the military get prosecuted. If the president had said he would not prosecute people who "thought" they were acting under proper authority and behaving legally, but then added that he would pursue those who authorized and ordered them to torture, I would not have fussed. But that is not what he said. The implication of his statement, and the fact that he has not, this far into his term, ordered his Attorney General to appoint a prosecutor to investigate those who were responsible for the crime, given what he clearly knows about its authors, is the worst possible of travesties, and rises to the level of a war crime itself."
FEE FI FO FUM ! I smell IMPEACHMENT around the corner but some people will say "Obama needs more time, blah-blah-blah ... !" Besides, you're implying that you're still fine with Obama's lame brain misleadership !
"But the president is wrong. Darkness does not go away when the fog comes. It just gets darker."
Well well well, now we're talking but you see, some of us tried to keep the fog away while you and the Obamabots kept shoving more of it on us ! Mccain or Obama would have kept us in foggy hell. Nader or Mckinney wouldn't.
"Let's shine a light. Sign the petition: No Amnesty for Torturers!"
PFFT ! LOL ! You crack me up so hard ! Here's a better idea instead of signing a silly petition to nowhere. Why don't you get over that stupid notion that voting 3rd party is somehow a wasteful idea and learn to punch some fear onto our droopy leadership. Your solution is completely laughable ! I laughed so hard until I nearly wet myself reading that silly lame brained idea ! What's the petition have, more pixy fairy dust ?!? LOL ! LOL ! ROTFLMAO !
You sound very bitter and depressed JB. You should really talk with someone.
Jennifer, I love you even though I don't know you but...
Do we have to be so dismissive of Lindorff's appeal to sign a petition for prosecution of torturers? Maybe it won't, in isolation from other approaches, have any great effect, but as Lindorff asks rhetorically about 3rd party candidates: "who do you propose?" and thereby dismisses out of hand another approach to political protest that, along with petition-signing and other grassroots techniques, can move us closer to a real voice in the decisions of our elected and appointed leaders. I supported McKinney in the last election and will likely support a 3rd party candidate in the next election, but this doesn't keep me from seeing the value of other approaches to populist influence.
Beyond that, I don't really like the satirical way of your saying in effect: well, now you're finally getting a point that we the enlightened ones got back during the campaign when you and other Obamabots were promoting his candidacy. That's not a productive approach to strengthening the numbers of "our cause." I've never fully liked the parable of the lost sheep with the fawning over the recovery of the "lost" one at the expense of those who stayed home, but without many many of the "sheep" which strayed into the Obama corral during the late campaign, our 3rd party or our petition drives or our whatever initiatives are not going to have much effect. I feel your pain, as someone like Obama who doesn't really feel anyone else's pain, would say; but let's try once in a while to put the promotion of the party above the expression of our personal pain. (It's not easy to do, and I've violated my own admonition as often as anybody; if I seem to be "preaching" to you, I may really only be preaching to myself.)
Listen, I've seen this author's articles in the past and I even saw his lame brained replies. Now, he pretends to apologize and yet as I pointed out, he refuses to actually come clean about it. What's wrong with him? Cat got his tongue or is his mouth stuffed with a meal? But let's be clear. You and I know that Obama made his intentions clear last year. Mr. Lindoff wants to tell us that NOW Obama's making it clear which I find completely laughable. Mr. Lindoff can admit that he made a blind judgment last year and give a few nice details and then I'll probably forgive him. And if he wants to preach about learning lessons, he might want to start out by saying the lessons he learned about the recent times. Vietnam is one thing but so too are the current times.
The defense of obeying orders was disallowed at Nuremberg and remains impermissible for good reason; there will always be leaders who seek to extend and abuse their power, and without willing accomplices their nefarious plans would remain conspiracies and not acts.
All involved must be held accountable, and no reasonable, educated person could have believed that these acts were lawful.
According to the novel, unorthodox legal theories of Obama and Holder (nearly as perverse as those of Bybee, Yoo, Gonzales and Haynes), Lynndie England and Charles Graner are owed an immediate pardon.
"and as many Chinese and other Asians still feel about Japan, that these two countries have never been willing to face up to the crimes that they, as a nation, permitted to happen in their names."
Not really. At least among the younger generation of East Asians this isn't an issue at all. Japan, and Japanese culture, is very very popular.
Having lived in China in the '90s, I can agree with that statement. It's the older people who experienced the war who are still bitter. It's the same in Germany. In fact, my experience in Germany in the 1960s, and from talking with German friends later, is the as large as the divide was between generations in the '60s here in the US, it was an absolute chasm in Germany, as young people born after the war looked on their parents as idiots and even criminals for having either fallen for, or stayed quiet during the rise of Hitler. It might not have been fair--I often wonder how I or anyone could have stood up against that time, since doing so risked not just one's own life, but the lives of one's family members--but when have kids been fair in assessing their parents?
Also in fairness to Germany, whenever there have been violent acts of intolerance against minorities in modern Germany, like the occasional attacks on Turkish immigrants, or the desecration of a Jewish cemetery, there will be a spontaneous demonstration in that city, and sometimes in many cities, with people coming out holding candles and declaring "never again."
As those German friends have pointed out, how often do we see Americans do the same thing when there is some horrible violent racist act here?
Dave
Visit Dave Lindorff's website at www.thiscantbehappening.net
Now, I am not condemning the Germans who didn't stand up, but, resistance to the Nazis didn't necessarily have to be standing up publicly, or becoming a Schindler or doing anything that would jeopardise your life. It could just be little things, not joining in the hate and vilification, even just little acts of kindness, acts of shared humanity, to those who were persecuted.
"As those German friends have pointed out, how often do we see Americans do the same thing when there is some horrible violent racist act here?"
Stop playing the race card. That is way too often the reaction of those in the US who do not want to deal with racism, and want to believe that it is a thing of the past.
WTF?
I'm not "playing the race card" for Christ's sake! I'm saying that we in the US condemn others for being racist, like Germans, but in our own country, when there are acts of violent racism, you don't see a broad mass of Americans, particularly white Americans, rise up in a spontaneous protest against such acts. We just move on to the next American Idol show.
I don't underestand what kind of point you are making here.
Visit Dave Lindorff's website at www.thiscantbehappening.net
No no. I'm not saying that you are playing the race card. I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying that the racists often accuse other people of playing the race card.
Sorry for not being clear.
Lindorff,
You may rely on a personal experience when you were 15 to make the assumptions you make of the German people and teir mass denial. But you would be very wrong. You would be so wrong as to be accused of a hate crime in some quarters by other ethnic groups. I wonder what your literary research has exposed you to in German literature? Especially since there are major world class novels that directly assess your teenage assumptions. The most obvious being 'The Tin Drum' by Gunter Grasse.
Normally, I read your articles with support. This one was something I felt was misrepresentative. Considering the behavior of American citizens over the last nine years while our 'government' stripped our rights, made torture a health food, and continues its imperialistic 'manifest destiny of bloodshed and coercion, one might address that denial.
Oh please. I've not just read Tin Drum, I've read Diary of a Snail, and the Flounder and other of Grass's excellent work, in German.
The point isn't that there is a literature that condemns German racism. It's that among that generation that lived through the Hitler time, there was enormous denial. Even younger Germans concede this. It's not racism. It's a fact.
Visit Dave Lindorff's website at www.thiscantbehappening.net
While we're signing the petition, let's keep in mind two fascinating facts:
1. Obama is the first nominee in history who didn't get the most popular votes.
2. The Democratic Party has moved its headquarters to Chicago.
Look, I lived in Germany a long time when I was in the military. I became friends with many Germans whom lived through the war era because of my landlord. There was a great degree of guilt on their part overall.
They vowed to rebuild a Germany that would never let such an abomination happen again. They did.
Were is our shame?
I am afraid that Barack Obama has clearly shown himself to be just another hack for the political establishment. We have a two-party system ---- in name only. They all share the same loyalties.
Not much hope for the common folk!
There is no historical precedent for country tolerating torture and righting itself. The future for such nations is always more suffering and gross injustice.
There is no hopeful new day for nations that do not apprehend war criminals.
These injustices fester from within and as we have seen these past eight years, emerge later with increased virulence.
I strongly support General Tagubas position that an independent prosecutor must be appointed. Justice must be served before the nation can heal itself and boldly move forward.