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Torture? It Probably Killed More Americans than 9/11
A US major reveals the inside story of military interrogation in Iraq.
The use of torture by the US has proved so counter-productive that it may have led to the death of as many US soldiers as civilians killed in 9/11, says the leader of a crack US interrogation team in Iraq.
"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq. It was the team led by Major Alexander [a named assumed for security reasons] that obtained the information that led to the US military being able to locate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al-Qa'ida in Iraq. Zarqawi was then killed by bombs dropped by two US aircraft on the farm where he was hiding outside Baghdad on 7 June 2006. Major Alexander said that he learnt where Zarqawi was during a six-hour interrogation of a prisoner with whom he established relations of trust.
Major Alexander's attitude to torture by the US is a combination of moral outrage and professional contempt. "It plays into the hands of al-Qa'ida in Iraq because it shows us up as hypocrites when we talk about human rights," he says. An eloquent and highly intelligent man with experience as a criminal investigator within the US military, he says that torture is ineffective, as well as counter-productive. "People will only tell you the minimum to make the pain stop," he says. "They might tell you the location of a house used by insurgents but not that it is booby-trapped."
In his compelling book How to Break a Terrorist, Major Alexander explains that prisoners subjected to abuse usually clam up, say nothing, or provide misleading information. In an interview he was particularly dismissive of the "ticking bomb" argument often used in the justification of torture. This supposes that there is a bomb timed to explode on a bus or in the street which will kill many civilians. The authorities hold a prisoner who knows where the bomb is. Should they not torture him to find out in time where the bomb is before it explodes?
Major Alexander says he faced the "ticking time bomb" every day in Iraq because "we held people who knew about future suicide bombings". Leaving aside the moral arguments, he says torture simply does not work. "It hardens their resolve. They shut up." He points out that the FBI uses normal methods of interrogation to build up trust even when they are investigating a kidnapping and time is of the essence. He would do the same, he says, "even if my mother was on a bus" with a hypothetical ticking bomb on board. It is quite untrue to imagine that torture is the fastest way of obtaining information, he says.
A career officer, Major Alexander spent 14 years in the US air force, beginning by flying helicopters for special operations. He saw combat in Bosnia and Kosovo, was an air force counter-intelligence agent and criminal interrogator, and was stationed in Saudi Arabia, with an anti-terrorist role, during the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Some years later, the US army was short of interrogators. He wanted to help shape developments in Iraq and volunteered.
Arriving in Iraq in early 2006 he found that the team he was working with were mostly dedicated, but young, men between 18 and 24. "Many of them had never been out of the States before," he recalls. "When they sat down to interrogate somebody it was often the first time they had met a Muslim." In addition to these inexperienced officers, Major Alexander says there was "an old guard" of interrogators using the methods employed at Guantanamo. He could not say exactly what they had been doing for legal reasons, though in the rest of the interview he left little doubt that prisoners were being tortured and abused. The "old guard's" methods, he says, were based on instilling "fear and control" in a prisoner.
He refused to take part in torture and abuse, and forbade the team he commanded to use such methods. Instead, he says, he used normal US police interrogation techniques which are "based on relationship building and a degree of deception". He adds that the deception was often of a simple kind such as saying untruthfully that another prisoner has already told all.
Before he started interrogating insurgent prisoners in Iraq, he had been told that they were highly ideological and committed to establishing an Islamic caliphate in Iraq, Major Alexander says. In the course of the hundreds of interrogations carried out by himself, as well as more than 1,000 that he supervised, he found that the motives of both foreign fighters joining al-Qa'ida in Iraq and Iraqi-born members were very different from the official stereotype.
In the case of foreign fighters - recruited mostly from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Yemen and North Africa - the reason cited by the great majority for coming to Iraq was what they had heard of the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. These abuses, not fundamentalist Islam, had provoked so many of the foreign fighters volunteering to become suicide bombers.
For Iraqi Sunni Arabs joining al-Qa'ida, the abuses played a role, but more often the reason for their recruitment was political rather than religious. They had taken up arms because the Shia Arabs were taking power; de-Baathification marginalised the Sunni and took away their jobs; they feared an Iranian takeover. Above all, al-Qa'ida was able to provide money and arms to the insurgents. Once, Major Alexander recalls, the top US commander in Iraq, General George Casey, came to visit the prison where he was working. Asking about what motivated the suspected al-Qa'ida prisoners, he was at first given the official story that they were Islamic Jihadi full of religious zeal. Major Alexander intervened to say that this really was not true and there was a much more complicated series of motivations at work. General Casey did not respond.
The objective of Major Alexander's team was to find Zarqawi, the Jordanian born leader of al-Qa'ida who built it into a fearsome organisation. Attempts by US military intelligence to locate him had failed despite three years of trying. Major Alexander was finally able to persuade one of Zarqawi's associates to give away his location because the associate had come to reject his methods, such as the mass slaughter of civilians.
What the major discovered was that many of the Sunni fighters were members of, or allied to, al-Qa'ida through necessity. They did not share its extreme, puritanical Sunni beliefs or hatred of the Shia majority. He says that General Casey had ignored his findings but he was pleased when General David Petraeus became commander in Iraq and began to take account of the real motives of the Sunni fighters. "He peeled back those Sunnis from al-Qa'ida," he says.
In the aftermath of his experience in Iraq, which he left at the end of 2006, Major Alexander came to believe that the battle against the US using torture was more important than the war in Iraq. He sees President Obama's declaration against torture as "a historic victory", though he is concerned about loopholes remaining and the lack of accountability of senior officers. Reflecting on his own interrogations, he says he always monitored his actions by asking himself, "If the enemy was doing this to one of my troops, would I consider it torture?" His overall message is that the American people do not have to make a choice between torture and terror.

80 Comments so far
Show AllHow do I loather thee, let me count the ways.
The War on Terror is a sham to begin with. Just as is its compatriot, the War On Drugs. These are nothing more or less than budget boosting boondoggles with motives other than those stated.
Certainly the core constituency of certain groups are motivated by religious extremism of a sort, but one does not build an organisation recruiting only those who worship a distorted view of the teachings of the Koran. It is our methods, our policies, our tolerance of the heinous actions of Israel, and our real motivations vis-a-vis the Middle East that cause folks to flock to the banner of the Taliban or AlQaeda, Hamas, Gama'al-Islamiyya, Ansar Al-Islam, Al_Aqsa, Abu Sayyaf, or Abu Nidal.
If we had approached the problem of extremism with an eye to pulling its teeth rather than using and exploiting such for our own gain we would have sought methods other than military in nature and we would very probably have been far more successful that ever we can be using torture and invasion.
Your mixed metaphors are torture, to me. Please, stop, I'll tell you everything. :-)
I've no idea what you mean.....budget busting boondoggles? pulling teeth? The point is made, why not speak to it?
How do I loathe thee, let me count the ways. insert a somewhat smiling face here.
Sorry, but the "eye to pulling its teeth" distracted from your argument, which is well made.
I disagree, hoytdouglas. I think it was just fine. No problem understanding what the commenter was saying. A focused eye rendering dangerous extremism toothless. Great image.
I guess to each his own.
/cm
Thanks CM, I do try with each effort to be clear and concise. It is appreciated that at least one person found my effort acceptable.
Red Rick,
You asked for my comment; I gave it in an honest and forthright fashion. I did not insult or berate you or ridicule you or attack you.
Have a nice day.
I thought Rick's was an awesome post. It's possible the "budget busting boondoggle" is something ABC's sports reporter Howard Cosell would say to Frank Gifford, and Hoytdouglas' comment was typical of Frank's retort before Howard would dip into his obscure vocabulary of even more non-colloquial obscurities, Just to make Frank look simple.... Ah, how I miss those days!
hoydouglas is just trying to improve your stlye Rick, for your mind is already developed as a great writer. But hoydouglas if you're going to "fire one across the bow" of a guy's masterpiece, you have to expect one in return!
I noticed you did put a smiley face in there.
What an ego trip is blogging in our own private comment space on CD. It was better before they stuffed the comments into separate page/link because it made it look like we were part of the article and people scrolling down would always encounter our comments (many which are better than the article itself.)
Cheers All,
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Personally I find Mr. Douglas all to willing to disparage us here, most of his efforts are in that vein, puzzling frankly. I do my best to be clear and I think that, in this medium, correcting grammar and syntax are considered rude.
Much better to stick to the subject matter.
:-)
It's that old underhanded adage, if one can't win the argument, then attack the poster (or his spelling or grammar!)
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Cheney favored torture because torture reliably provided what Cheney refers to as “actionable intelligence.” Note that such information need not be true or even remotely accurate or reliable - as long as it provided justification for Cheney-Bush to pursue fascist policies and legislation or to invade Iraq, the information was considered “actionable intelligence.”
For Cheney’s purposes repetitive torture was uniquely useful in providing “actionable intelligence” as his torture victims learned to fabricate whatever details the torturers sought (such as a link between 9/11 and Iraq).
Sioux Rose
I think it's helpful to know (and see) that some within the military can still think for themselves, and in the case of Major Alexander, retain a conscience along with the moral reasoning capacity to consider his own troops facing similar protocols. That's empathy, and I'm glad to see it still exists in a few within the MIC environs.
From today's NYTimes Kristof: Alberto Mora, a former general counsel for the Navy, has said that some flag-rank officers believe that Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo constitute “the first and second identifiable causes of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq,” because they galvanized jihadis. An Air Force major and interrogator of prisoners who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander told Harper’s Magazine that “hundreds but more likely thousands of American lives” were lost because of “the policy decision to introduce the torture and abuse of prisoners.”
So many right-wingers either don't get this or don't care. I suspect there are multiple reasons. Some want revenge, no matter how dislocated or factually ridiculous. Some know they would rat out their own family if they were even threatened with torture. And I've no doubt that some are just evil creeps. Perhaps the time will come when we can't afford to start unilateral wars of choice. Our long-term financial troubles may have a good side.
Karma ---------
Two endless unwinnable wars
Collapsed economy
Swineflu Epidemic
A horrible irony, and we must look favorably on those who take up arms against a United States who did such things. We "Merkins" (I use the Bush pronunciation) would fight to the death against occupiers and attackers who were so brutal. Afghans and Iraqis must, too.
Bring America Back !!!!....Thanks to CD, and Coburn of the UK Independent for this...and WHY are we not being given this by our own MSM ????
***To paraphrase it, a major US Intelligence officer states that American troops were killed by Iraqi Insurgents by the thousands (total at 4400) due to the torture and prison camp policies of the US Govt !!!
**This also almost proves an elemental point I am making, that the torture program was one to create Patsies, fall guys who could be blamed and who would admit, under torture, to 9/11 and anything else their torturemasters wanted them to !!!
**Therefore, we had at Gitmo a waterboarded chauffeur and the 19th Hijacker admitting to masterminding 9/11, proud of it, and merely wishing in return to be martyred and sent to their 40 Virgins in Islam heaven !!!! Patsies !!!
The Kangaroo Courts were Shams, the Anthrax Patsy was a Sham! Cover-ups !
The military-industrial complex Beast keeps devouring the Globe !!! More Waar !
Torture in the name of the people is flat out wrong. It does not reflect the will of the masses. Bush & company do not represent me. They should be prosecuted for many reasons but torture is a crime against the people. We the people should demonstrate the fact that we know this and press for prosecution of those who have betrayed our principals. Some of us, most of us here, have something in our lives called values. We should overcome the dark side of our elected government and remain true to ourselves. Otherwise, what the hell is there to be proud about?
Since the trail of evidence from 9/11 led to the White House and Bush/Cheney, they had to create "confessions" with torture.
Obviously, the insane torture program has done great harm to our own nation
and those responsible should be prosecuted.
The Drug War continues to enrich those like Bush/Cheney, empowering fascism.
Those Congressional leaders most likely to have wrestled with and controlled
this fascism were targetted and removed long ago.
"According to all myth, the female - not the male -- gives life"
Torture is wrong. But lets not compare what has been done in our name to "torture" carried out by the Japanese, Nazi's, NVA or Pol Pot. Some seem to want to make that comparison.
Has it hurt us, of course it has.....is Major Alexander correct? Of course he is. Should President Obama have stopped it? Of course. Its one of the few positive things he has done.
Also I note an almost vindictive urgency to "prosecute" some one for something. Perhaps its not as good an idea as some believe for many reasons.
The only way that the US can cleanse itself of the Bush/Cheney torture scourge is to bring the lawbreakers to justice. Until then, the US is a nation of hypocrits in the eyes of the world. Also, the precedents of torture laid by the Bush/Cheney cabal will lead to future atrocities.
You write: "Perhaps its not as good an idea as some believe for many reasons." How about you listing a few?
Prosecution is not "vindictive urgency". It's justice...at least in this reality.
What would you suggest?
Ignoring or avoiding justice, accepting illegalities and amoralities, setting this nation up for future abuses by ignoring past ones. All this is what you abet when you call for no investigations.
Where does the Road to Hell end?? Maybe it is too late for us--it IS too late if the attitude toward ignoring past CRIMES, present CRIMES, and leaving the gate open for endless FUTURE CRIMES is allowed to prevail. The "urgency to 'prosecute' some one for something" in actuality, is not based on this kind of vagueness. For instance, there is enough evidence, both circumstantial and real, to demand a thorough investigation and prosecution for the actual players responsible for the 9-11 false-flag operation, which got this whole fascist 'ball of dung' rolling. Obama is now the obstacle, not the solution. Since the Constitution and rule of law were sidelined during the Bush administration, Obama doesn't really have to do anything but pretend as the final touches are applied to a total police state. As soon as the global bankers (Yes, I mean globalist, world goverment.) have their ducks in a row, it will be "mission accomplished" for Obama. This is not about vindictiveness, but about survival itself.
Mr Chips, Excellent post! It seems like their agenda.
Thomas More,
What makes what the Japanese, Nazis, NVA, or Pol Pot different than what we are doing? Torture is torture. Period. Whether you torture five people or five million people does not matter. Torture is torture and it is wrong!
well said gracchus!
we are not discussing the degree of criminality here, but the fact.
Its the same bloody thing Mr More. Again, why is "American Torture" an exception in your eyes? What makes it NICER?
You take umbrage everytime someone points out your comments are bigoted or racist yet continue to try and advance this notion that somehow Americans are just better then everyone else.
And if the NVA was as bad as you claim, why did the Vietnamese not turn against them rather then join THEM in throwing out the Americans?
It seems to me that the Jihadi's this Officer refers to are a direct response to the tortures inflicted on them by the Americans at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere.
Am I to understand that the peoples of Vietnam are so very different they rallied behind the people that were torturing them?
A considerable number of South Vietnamese did fight against the North Vietnamese; it was a civil war. The Army of South Vietnam took terrible casualties fighting the North and the Viet Cong.
The Viet Cong did join the NVA (North Vietnamese Army) in fighting the South Vietnamese government.
In 1956, millions Vietnamese fled the North before the country was partitioned at the 17th parallel.
The history of that country is very interesting and informative back to the French colony. You may like to read about it.
The torture contributed to the violence on both sides. It only difference was in kind and degree, but it was all torture.
lard knows i've had my rows w/mr. more, but why are his comments "bigoted or racist"?
i disagree strongly w/him here, but throwing those terms around insultingly doesn't help anyone.
he seems rather to cling to a nationalist/chauvinist myth about the US as some kind of beacon of light that has only been sullied by recent events. that does not necessarily make him "racist".
<
Tom More,
Sometimes I just don't understand from where you come from? You seem not to support illegality, but then you waffle.
Don't you believe we should prosecute or not?
The Japanese waterboarded US POWs and we punished them for it after the war-crimes trials in Japan. The Nazis pulled out people's fingernails, again in the belief that they would confess to something. They also were punished after Nuremburg.
This is the whole point, isn't it? That Americans have been doing what Americans punished the Germans and the Japanese for doing TO AMERICANS.
I've addressed the prosecution issue elsewhere so I'll just say you're wrong.
Rainborowe
"But lets not compare what has been done in our name to "torture" carried out by the Japanese, Nazi's, NVA or Pol Pot. "
Uh, you do know quite a few detainees (I've heard 100 or so) have been tortured to death by our people, don't you?
Thomas, I must disagree with you. We have become like the Nazis, the Japanese, and Pol Pot, in varying degrees. Our so-called representatives in government tolerate torture as an accepted practice. There has been NO outrage from the political prostitutes in D.C. ever since the sexual sadism at Abu Ghraib photos were exposed.
We either prosecute the perpetrators of these crimes just like we did the Germans and Japanese, or we are no better then they were.
I was listening to the Thom Hartmann radio program last week, and he talked about the most successful interrogator in WW11. (I think his name was Moran) The fellow was a missionary in Japan, spoke the language and knew the culture, and just by talking to the Japanese prisoners, and making them homesick for their families, etc, plus treating them like fellow human beings, gathered much information which saved thousands of lives. The same with German POW's
There's an old saying, "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.".
The difference between us "well-intentioned" American torturers and the Gestapo, etc., is one of degree, not of kind. If we executed Filipinos and Japanese for waterboarding our troops, which we did, then simple justice demands that all those who authorized AND committed this technique hang (preferably at Nuremberg, but..).
Some say that the Bush/Cheney administration's torture policy stemmed, not from a desire to obtain intelligence that would save American lives, but instead, to validate the administration's false assertion that a link existed between Saddam Hussein and Al Quaida. Others say it was simple paranoia after the September 11, 2001 attacks that happened on their watch.
I think Bush/Cheney's torture policy came from the seriously deranged psychopaths who occupied The White House and controlled the Republican Party. They are sadists who enjoy inflicting pain on those who are weaker.
It is not the use of torture which caused the deaths of thousands of American soldiers. The cause of the deaths is the unnecessary war, the criminal war, started by Bush with the help of the US Congress.
Don't get distracted. The wars are Bush (the Chimp), the continuation of the war is Obama (the House Negro).
And Clinton was the "house honkey"... What's your point?
Why do you persistently bring out that old canard, as if no one on CD has heard that one before...
I don't recall you saying the same for Rice, Judge Thomas, or Eric Holder... And they were appointed...
Or do you just want to be the first to tell that joke to the occasional first-timer here on CD?
Come up with some new material, instead of using Nader's old line about Obama...
I agree with you and with GM. Whatever temporary release one may get from using a racist characterization, we lose in debasing the level of discussion. The race (or sex) of the President was rarely made a name-calling issue for over 200 years of Mr. Whitey in office.
When Malcolm X said things like that perhaps they needed to be said within the Black movement. And Malcolm X earned some right to say these things by putting his life on the line. Even then, he was in a period of development and soon moved past it to something more generous.
Coming from white people it just sounds smart-alecky and will not help to unify white people with other groups. Better to stick with clear criticism based on the issues.
Joe
It is a good one, and should be repeated. Ridicule is a great way to disrespect our government leadership.
Mr. Obama is a House Negro as defined by that great American Malcolm X.
If you can find something better to use as a ridicule of Mr. Obama, I would love to see it. That may keep you from becoming insufferably pompous in your comments.
hoytdouglas, Hello, not just the Endless House Negroe quip, today something re "Kissing Obama's Black Ass"
I have two questions for you hoytdoulas,
Do you truly think, actually believe, your incessant "House Negroe" and now "Kissing Obama's Black Ass" slurs are NOT offensive or hurtful to a sensitive black person? Which they obviously are. Or is that the whole point?
Cordially, Joseph Cotton
azjoe,
Black people are the same lot as White people. Apparently, you don't associate with many black people?
Ever hear one black yell at another black? Terms like "Niger" and "Whore" and "Pimp" get hurled at one another.
So I can't call Mr. Obama a "House Negro?" Let me say again: Malcolm X explained House Negro. I think it is the same as Uncle Tom, but it has more punch. Odd isn't it that I refer to "Mr." Obama before I define him as a House Negro. You believe Mr. Obama is a shill, too. Or are you a Obaman shepple?
Would your sentiments expect a long explanation on some shill of the Wall Street, or Military Industral Complex? It is just easier to call him a House Negro. That way it saves time, space and effort to explain.
Or maybe you would prefer some middle of the road explanation like Golden Mean treats us to. Or some sweeping diatribe like Sioux Rose usually posts. It is my opinion that those two are full of themselves.
Anyway, I can say what I wish. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
hoytdouglas: When you walk into a bar in a strongly Italian neighborhood and start calling the guys Dago, Wop, and Greaser, I'll think more of your argument. After all, that's what they call each other.
I challenge your assertion that any good can come from using outdated racial quips as fodder for your tactic of ridiculing to "disrespect our gov't leadership"... However juvenile and tactless it may be, I give you props for sticking up for your right to use reactionary rhetoric...
Any phrase that needs to be repeated for effectiveness is suspect to begin with... and like any "three word chant" or ideological mantra, it loses it's power and effectiveness the more one repeats it... besides, folks who are able to cognitively process political concepts have developed critical thinking skills which make them immune to the communicable mental diseases of racist and anti-gov't rhetoric that circulate through out the liberal and conservative communities alike...
And thank you for the advice, the last thing I would want is for some anonymous comment board troll to think I am insufferably pompous...
GoldenMean,
Apparently, your "cognitively process" leaves out the part that I am not anonymous. I use my real name because I am not embarrassed of my thoughts or words.
Are you aware that you are using the name of a logical fallacy? This strikes me as weird. Who would brag by implication that they are illogical? My answer is someone who has no character but of the heard.
Have a nice day Mr. In Between.
Also Known as: Golden Mean Fallacy, Fallacy of Moderation
Description of Middle Ground
This fallacy is committed when it is assumed that the middle position between two extremes must be correct simply because it is the middle position. this sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
1. Position A and B are two extreme positions.
2. C is a position that rests in the middle between A and B.
3. Therefore C is the correct position.
That's cool... I understand that the easiest way put of a losing arguement is to change the subject...
As far as anonymity goes... Whose to say anyone is using their real name when posting here, even when they say so?... And who cares if they do or don't? Douglas Hoyt is just as anonymous as Thomas More, as in your name is a meaningless handle used to convey your thoughts and ideas, which is all that matters in this forum...
However that's not the point, which is why you fixated on that, and then tried to deconstruct the name of my handle, completely missing the mark...
Golden Mean... Think Leonardo Davinci... Fibonnacci... Phi... Golden ratio... 1.618033...
Now look at your own belly button... It is approximately 61.8% of your heighth... Same goes for your eyes in your head... And the stars and planets in the sky, And everything else in between...
It is about the divine relationship of proportional balance...
and is the basis for fractal geometry...
GoldenMean,
Nice change of subject.
Is your mark to equate yourself with Leonardo or Fibonacci or a ratio or some divine myth? I am supposed to be impressed? Or just baffled with your Bull Shit?
It is a mathematical proportion, like pi is a relationship between the radius and circumference of a circle, phi is the relationship between length and width, or a proportional value... It is not some new age thing... The Greeks and Romans use it in their architecture, like the Parthenon, computer programmers use it for designing fractal screen savers, even meteorologists use it to model weather patterns...
Google "golden mean" or "phi" if you don't believe me...
And ad hominem attacks are used by folks who have not only lost the arguement, but have lost touch with their own humanity... How sad.
Did you know that churches in the classical style (i.e. to the golden mean), like those built in the "Englightenment" in Europe, made the human beings in the buildings seem larger, while those built in the Medieval style projected the eye up to heaven and reinforced the sense of the smallness of mankind? Each type of building was designed to make an important statement on Man in relation to the universe (or God).
Just saying . . .
Rainborowe
Yes, I am aware of that, thank you for reminding folks on this forum...
Seems that we have a medieval governmental structure that wants us to feel small and inconsequential...
The golden mean and other phenomena of sacred geometry have been used in building temples, cathedrals, and churches all over the world, especially in India, with birds eye view of many temples show mandalas and chakras... Even Capitol buildings in the USA and layouts of the street grid in Wash DC are based on sacred geometry, since the founding fathers were masons and into druism...
There is practical wisdom in using sacred geometry for construction... Perfectly hemispherical domes withstand gravity better...
Rectalinear structures based on the golden mean proportion are stronger in an earthquake, and the pentagon and five-sided star are also derivatives of the golden mean...
I find it comical that ignorant folks are surrounded by sacred geometry in the cities and buildings of their every day lives, yet get indignant and superstitious when folks point out the truth that is within and surrounding them...
Even atomic structures that have been photographed look like the platonic solids, carbon= tetrahedron, et al...
The same patterns emerge when an electro-magnetic current passes through water or iron filings on a plate...
It generates disturbance fields that look like platonic solids and 2-D radial mandala patterns...
Similar patterns are found on the sub-atomic level and the galactic scale...
Fractal and sacred geometry is also found in the nodes of music, and the holograph...
I know, math and science can be challenging for the Doug Hoyt's of the world... it is much simpler to ridicule astro-physics, quantum mechanics, chemistry, mathematics, architecture, biology, civic engineering, computer programming, fine art, and music, than it is to do your own research and ponder the interconnectivity of life, and the structure of the universe...