Israeli Ex-Soldiers Expose Abuse of Palestinians
In a report this week, 39 soldiers give eyewitness accounts from their patrols in and around the West Bank city of Hebron.
TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - Doron Efrati was assigned to the Kfir Brigade, part of an infantry battalion that was especially created to serve in the West Bank following the outbreak of the second intifada.
He figured if he was going to be drafted anyway, he would agree to serve in the Israeli-occupied territories, “to see what really happens, and maybe to change things,” he says. “But I didn’t succeed.”
Today, he is one of 39 recently discharged soldiers whose testimonies are part of a grim new report on the situation in the West Bank city of Hebron, where the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) oversee a volatile population of 700 to 800 Jewish settlers living amid nearly 170,000 Palestinians. The 118-page report, which tells of systematic mistreatment of local Palestinians by both soldiers and settlers, was released during this week’s Passover holiday.
The timing is not coincidental. Forty years ago this week, a small group of far-right religious Israelis, led by Rabbi Moshe Levinger, wrangled with a reluctant Israeli military establishment to hold a Passover seder in Hebron, revered as the burial place of several biblical patriarchs and matriarchs. Rabbi Levinger, who saw in Israel’s 1967 military victory over the Arabs a heralding of a Messianic-era redemption, rented hotel rooms for himself and his followers the following Passover, and refused to leave. Today, his flock constitutes the only Jewish settlement inside a Palestinian city.
The report, put out by the nongovernmental group Breaking the Silence, is meant to challenge what the group sees as a growing assumption by Israelis that Israeli-Palestinian friction in the West Bank has quieted down since the Al-Aqsa Intifada petered out around 2004.
“A lot of people come and say, ‘Oh, that’s all in the past,’ ” explains Yehuda Shaul, executive director of the group, which has brought 3,000 people on eye-opening trips to Hebron. On the contrary, he adds, he sees abuses as increasingly institutionalized. “The whole point of Breaking the Silence is to understand the moral price tag of a military occupation.”
Asked to respond to the group’s report, an IDF spokesman said in a written statement, “All IDF soldiers of all ranks are instructed to follow a strict set of moral guidelines which dictate codes of conduct in combat settings. IDF soldiers operate according to these guidelines, which determine the way they are expected and instructed to behave at all times.”
But in the report, 39 recently discharged soldiers who served in the Hebron area between 2005 and 2007 describe a pattern of repeated violations. Mr. Efrati is one of the five who have made their identities known; most offered anonymous accounts. The IDF does not investigate “anonymous complaints,” said the spokesman, who asked not to be named in keeping with Israeli army policy.
One of Efrati’s worst experiences started when some Palestinian kids threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at his unit when he was out on patrol in south Hebron. About 40 minutes afterward, he says, other soldiers in his unit identified and shot dead one of the youths who threw a flaming bottle. He was 11 years old.
“It was reported in the Israeli media later that one terrorist with a Molotov cocktail was killed,” he recalls, sitting in a Tel Aviv cafe. “I didn’t feel so good, but most of my friends didn’t care, and we had so much to do. These things were happening all the time,” he says.
The IDF spokesman said that in the event of an incident, “Officers from every unit that comes in direct contact with the civilian population in the West Bank take steps to ensure that similar incidents, whether commonplace or highly unusual, are never repeated.”
But Efrati describes numerous actions he witnessed on a regular basis. One involves locking an entire family into one room, and then using the rest of the house - the roof included - as a base. He says that in one such mission, in the village of Tarkumiyeh near Hebron, soldiers stayed overnight. Additional jeeps with sirens came in the morning, trying to draw a crowd. When the stones started flying, soldiers were able to shoot from the roof.
Michael Manekin, one of the leaders of Breaking the Silence, which has collected testimonies from more than 500 soldiers, says that’s a “fixed procedure.” Efrati says the only explanation given for the operation is that there were “a lot of terrorists in the village.” He says that on one occasion where he witnessed clear violation of policy - he saw an army comrade hitting someone who was already handcuffed and calm, he complained to his commander. The answer? “Let’s leave the dirty laundry in the company.”
Efrati also describes regularly being sent on late-night missions that involved raiding homes in the wee hours of the morning, turning over the house and searching for weapons. This often was carried out for the purposes of “mapping” - keeping track of who lives where - but he and most others who gave testimonies for the reports said that this technique was not carried out to target specific militant activity, but to instill fear. “It’s done because we want the Palestinians to feel that we can be anywhere at anytime,” he says. “The first time you enter some family’s home, you feel, why am I doing it? But then after two, three times, you get used to it.”
Efrati’s stories are far from the worst in the report. The testimonies include details of beatings and detaining Palestinians for checks without reason and making them sit or squat in uncomfortable positions. According to one troubling testimony, a soldier who gets annoyed at the sight of a Palestinian farmer whipping his donkey decides to ride the man and give him a taste of the same. The soldiers describe a constant stream of settler violence and vandalism against Palestinians, some of which is captured on the extensive camera system through which the IDF monitors what happens in the city. But if the report is correct, the footage is rarely turned over to the police to prosecute settlers.
Some of the most damning testimonies have been given on condition of anonymity - some soldiers fear legal action, and others are afraid of the social pressures to keep quiet. Says Mr. Shaul: “I hope that by doing this, it will get people to break their silence earlier.”
Copyright © 2008 The Christian Science Monitor
Think of the outcry in western media if jews or christian had been treated this way in a muslim country. Bur here in Norway..and in US as far as I can tell–nada,nothing..zilch.
This alarming silence tells volumes of the “freedom of the press” A hot topic in these part of the world a few months ago when publishing caricatures of Muhammed was mandatory for every rightwing publisher..
Maybe Im wrong..that harassment and killing of innocent palestinians is business as usual and not noteworthy…Yes that must be it.
Everyone should read :
Let Me Stand Alone
The Journals of Rachael Corrie
She died by driven over by an Israeli bulldozer trying to save the home of a Palestinian…she was American.
It is the touching journal of a young American’s journey from childhood to young adulthood in the midst of political and realization.
There was a play about Rachel Corrie…it was banned in many places in Great Britain and the US.
The truth hurts.
A compelling line in this story: “The whole point of Breaking the Silence is to understand the moral price tag of a military occupation.”
The moral price tag is that when a moral line is crossed, it becomes lost. After the first shock that yes, we torture, it has become accepted, and then the topic is avoided or rationalized. This country is in a massive state of rationalization and denial. Perhaps the only answer is what the 12 step addiction programs refer to as “hitting bottom”. We are certainly headed in that direction. There is so much this country is not facing about itself. Stealing the resources of other countries (watch Blood Diamond), indulging ourselves from the sweatshop labor of children (if we actually cared we would boycott those products), still in the Reagan era attitude of “what’s in it for me? And why should I help anyone else?” instead of a sense of community and helping each other lifts all boats. We live more like a pack of hyenas fighting over a rotting corpse while the youngest and weakest go hungry. Is that our idea of civilization?
And as for the article above, we cover for Israel, calling 11 year olds “terrorists” and bragging about how many “terrorists” the Israelis shot today. No wonder the Propaganda Machine (media) avoids pictures unless they are of Israeli victims.
One thing about denial, it protects us from feeling the shame we deserve to feel. Unfortunately those of us not in denial do feel the shame, but don’t have the power to do what shame is supposed to accomplish: change behavior.
kathyodat
kathyodat
And the media continues its complicity.
If it weren’t for BBC or Al Jazeera (minimal US press coverage), I wouldn’t even be aware of Saturday’s report that Israel raided Gaza again, going after another Hamas leader, injuring his wife and killing the 14 year old daughter in the process and destroying their house into Swiss cheese in the process. BBC minimizes the incident by calling it a clash instead of a raid in the headline, as though there was not aggressor and it just sort of happened (the mainstream does this often). BBC also doesn’t bring up any moral issues with the attack, thus legitimizing the killing and arresting of basically most all Gazans who support the Hamas political party. This past week Israel rejected Hamas’ peace offer and refuses to talk to Hamas, thus enabling Israel to continue its policy of killing (by calling everyone wanted militants since it already calls Gaza and enemy entity) and suffocation (food/medical/fuel) in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7368502.stm
The following is a good or very good related article.
“Breaking the Silence - Israeli Soldiers Speak
by Stephen Lendman
Global Research, April 24, 2008″
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8777
I hate to say it, but the tactics described here sound an awful lot like the Gestapo and the Russian KGB - arriving at night to search, allowing Jewish settlers to harrass the Palestinian citizens (think Germany or the Russian pograms) and all the other indignities. I have jewish relatives I’m very fond of, but I can’t discuss this with them I’m sad to say. When will christian and jews wake up to the horror under their nose?
The once abused has now become the abuser..The zionist likudists are the Nazis of circa 2008…
The appalling cycle of violence continues against mostly civillian Palestinians…
MSM in US is complicit in WAR CRIMES against Humanity…
These soldiers are incredibly brave for speaking out - I think the crimes they witnessed are just shocking and I wish the sheer cruelty of the Israel occupation could be better known across the world, especially here in the US.
Btw, Lendman’s article is about more than the group known as ‘Breaking the Silence’, for he gives fine descriptions of several other Israeli activist groups opposed to the Israeli occupation of Palestine; including, but not only, another group for former IDF soldiers.
I’ll express my THANKS to all of these Israelis, too!
“Unchained April 27th, 2008 2:05 pm
…
There was a play about Rachel Corrie…it was banned in many places in Great Britain and the US.”
Played in [Israel], although not for Jewish Israelis. I read an article on this not long ago and either here or at www.globalresearch.ca . If recalling precisely, then the staging of the play in Israel was scheduled for this year and to coincide with some related anniversary date; perhaps, or probably, when Rachel was [deliberate] killed by the bulldozing IDF soldier. Palestinians and other non-Jews in Israel were permitted to attend, but not Palestinians in Palestine or what little is left of it.
A website dedicated to her and her activism, and I suppose martyrdom, is the following.
http://www.rachelcorrie.org
And nope, just did a Web search (the source of the above link) and the article I had read is the following.
“RACHEL CORRIE REMEMBERED IN PALESTINE
Desertpeace
March 20, 2008
Rachel Corrie’s parents speak at Nablus demonstration to remember those killed in Gaza”
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=42231
———————————
Kathyodat,
Good post, and I totally agree, nearly totally, that is. I disagree with, “Unfortunately those of us not in denial do feel the shame, …”.
I have NO cause to feel any shame for what’s been happening ever since the USA allowed the Bush-Cheney cabal to hijack the presidency with the serious aid of a small panel of Supreme Court judges, i.e., traitors. While I’ve not been at all in denial all along, I’ve especially distrusted Bush-Cheney, et al, ever since 9-11 occurred, and all the more so since their threat and then launching of war on Iraq. And distrust and anger aren’t necessarily unrelated; the former easily enough triggering the latter, like sort of coincidentally.
I had enough reasons to justly distrust them and especially so as of the 9-11 attacks themselves. And I haven’t lost any of these reasons since. We only have more reasons to NOT trust them AT ALL.
Shame is to be felt when we have personal cause to feel shame, and I have no such cause. I have this healthy resistance against feeling shame for matters I’m not at fault about or in.
Anger? Yeah; we are not strangers, let’s say.
————————————–
” Progressive101 April 27th, 2008 2:51 pm
And the media continues its complicity.
If it weren’t for BBC or Al Jazeera (minimal US press coverage), I wouldn’t even be aware of Saturday’s report that Israel raided Gaza again, …. …”
http://www.uruknet.info
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En
http://www.electronicintifada.net
Those are good for news, although EI and PI, really PIC, for it’s Palestinian Info. Center, these perhaps do both have analyses too; as opposed to only news reporting. Uruknet has struck me as mostly, if not only, news reports; but I haven’t used it much, not having enough time to check all good websites I know of alone. EI has analyses, and www.globalresearch.ca is fine for these types of articles; while not being much for a news reporting. There are often good articles on the Palestine situation at www.counterpunch.org too; among other websites, like surely http://www.zmag.org .
BBC is much as you say. F.e., it’s done some okay reporting on the war on Iraq, but also beat the war drums for this war, war-occupation, how ever each reader prefers to think of the situation and the launching of it.
Actually daga, christians are being ethnically cleansed, raped by the thousands, and slaughtered in Darfur and Iraq, and certainly none of you “progressives” care about that. Instead, you pretend as though the israelis, who are fighting against peopel who want to kill every single one of them, are somehow completely in the wrong because there are bad apples in their military. Well, the palestinian population VOTED for hamas, the best of which makes the worst israeli soldier look like a true humanitarian!
And the comparison between the nazis and israeli is utterly stupid and offensive (which I imagine its meant to be). The nazis slaughtered millions, did sick medical experiments on children, and invaded dozens of countries for no other reason then territorial gain. The nazis are far more comparable to the palestinians, who share their jew-hating ideology, if not their military might! As usual, israel is penalized because it has honest, decent people like these soldiers.
When will we see a palestinian group speaking out about the horrors that THEY commit on a daily basis???? Why does no one ask this question?
Oh, and yes, I am a proud jewish zionist! So cut right to the flaming and bypass the “I think you’re a jewish zionist” postings…
Would someone tell Barack Obama and his favorite foreign policy advisor, Samantha Power, about this? Regarding Israel he seems to want to continue the same old, same old (I thought it was change you can believe in; new wine, old bottle). OBama even through in a pro-Israel line in the now famous “race” speech (you know, the one where he deserted his excellent pastor, Rev. Wright, a man unfairly beat up by the press).
thanks (and the Paletinian people thank you as well)
Re.: Rachel Corrie
I thought the Uruknet.info article would do, but checking it over now, for I searched my bookmarks and don’t have the article bookmarked, which I would, if I had read it; well, it’s not the same one and doesn’t speak of the play put on in Israel. It’s still a good article though; short for text, but quotes Rachel’s parents, and provides good PICs.
The following is an article about the play; had it in my bookmarks but didn’t check them until now. Oh well, I am glad to have seen the Uruknet article, so I made a good mistake.
“Published on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 by Al Jazeera
Rachel Corrie Play Opens in Haifa
by Rachel Shabi in Haifa”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/18/7750
Maybe Obama doesn’t support mindless, violent religious fanatics and doesn’t agree with you on israel, former!
I’m tired of Obama supporters making him look bad or gullible by claiming either “jews control him” or “he’s just saying that to get jewish votes”. Maybe he really believes what he says about israel, and maybe you should listen.
By the way, Rachel Corrie was defending a shipment of weapons that was coming into that house via underground tunnel. Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter who may be the aggressor…
Anyone notice that these tactics are exactly the same our military uses in Iraq?
Remember we trained our libera….er, occupiers by sending 5000 man contingents to IDF run training facilities before the invasion started.
Any wonder the Iraqis want us out - or are continuing to rain mortars and rockets on the Green Zone?
May Allah have mercy on your soul for such outrageous and false propaganda, Holden.
Curmugeon, I appreciate your comment, but I don’t think anything I said was false and it certainly wasn’t “propoganda”.
What’s propoganda is this nonesense that we are using israeli tactics. Israeli tactics are weak compared to ours in iraq, though I don’t think we should be in iraq in the first place, we are certainly fighting much harder and better then the israelis did against hezbollah for example. Though since we kill far more civilians, I have to ask: If you all think israelis are the nazis, does that make americans the monghuls… maybe the drylecks?? What’s worse then the nazis?
The real issue is that societies that live this way do not evolve in a natural way. Defined as you are what you are, a militarized society with a problem that goes back so far no one really remembers what the fighting is all about, only the hate remains.
The Israelis do not have a right to the settlements they are defending. Sorry, Holden, but Land for Peace has always been the end game. Anything else is immature and selfish and will destroy us all.
They keep 170,000 humans under police control because a few hundred religious zealots think this is their “right”. Let them think what they want. The Israeli government should simply announce the troops are leaving Monday and anyone who wants to leave can come along.
” dixie April 27th, 2008 3:23 pm
I hate to say it, but the tactics described here sound an awful lot like the Gestapo and …”
It’s so much of that nature that it causes me to seriously grant credibility to revisionist historians who say that Zionists were very responsible for the Holocaust; instead of only Hitler and the Nazis having been responsible.
There are these revisionists, and then there’s a True Torah, anti-Zionism Jewish website or two, or more, (eg, www.JewsAgainstZionism.com and Neturei Karta, www.nkusa.org , a chapter of the intl NK) in the USA contains a copy of a letter that a rabbie, one who apparently was highly renowned, enough anyway, had sent to Zionists about a very serious concern. He inquired if they had blocked Hitler from being able to get foreign govts to provide assistance with relocating the Jews. That letter evidently is historical fact, it’s available for reading anyway, and I don’t know what caused the rabbi to have such a suspicion; but there was a cause.
And revisionist historians have said that Hitler tried to get govts to help with relocation, instead of killing or imprisoning, and the Zionists got govts initially agreeing to help to NOT do so. The British govt purportedly was going to help with relocation and backed off after this demand from Zionists.
As that history telling goes, the Zionists were demanding that all Jews relocated needed to be transferred to Palestine; for the project of establishing and expanding the state of Israel.
That’s all fitting with present reality. Israel offered to financially help Jews worldwide, regardless of whether they’re semitic Jews, which I’ve read relatively or very few are today; well, Israel made this offer to try to get many Jews to relocate for what? For expansion of Israel. And their hellishly criminal conduct towards Palestinians, particularly those who are Muslim, given the Israeli leadership doesn’t want to cause an uproar among Christians and “Christians” of the USA; well, Hitler and the Nazis can’t be really said to have been worse. The EVIL of the Israeli leadership and the IDF leadership of today is extreme!
But I’m not historian and therefore do not have the ability to say whether or not the above is true. Still, some revisionist historians sure do come up with very realistic accounts of history; it’s the least that I can discern. Least and most, actually.
I don’t agree with all of the views of these anti-Zionist Jews, but they’re minimally against Zionism and the crimes against Palestinians; as well as having views I agree with on other topics. And given that NO one is totally perfect, so I’ll take the good they provide, while leaving the rest to them.
—————————
” simonhhh April 27th, 2008 3:41 pm
… MSM in US is complicit in WAR CRIMES against Humanity…”
NOT ONLY U.S. news media. Canada might be a little better, but Canada’s gone the Zionist way enough more with the Stephen Harper govt. Canada has allowed a sister of AIPAC to be established here and while I’ve read very little about this, this organisation has special privilege status with the Canadian govt and therefore Canadian elites.
Britain is not great, and there’s surely bs in Europe; just not as bad as in the USA.
—————————
” suhail_shafi April 27th, 2008 4:20 pm
These soldiers are incredibly brave for speaking out ….”
The article does say that MOST of these soldiers are speaking [anonymously], while also saying that the IDF or Israeli govt doesn’t investigate accounts for which the sources are given anonymously.
Who cares about IDF rules when what’s done to Palestinians is referrable to as the gates of hell being opened over them and the demons herding out to attack, slaughter, destroy?! To [hell] with the damn IDF rule about anon. vs non-anon. accounts of Israeli crimes!
John 8:53-45:
“43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not. ”
http://www.ccel.org/b/bible/asv/xml/asv.John.8.xml
The IDF soldiers could carefully read these above-quoted words and repeat them to their so-called superiors; showing which of the two parties are really superior to the other.
Or, wait a second; DID I get confused about the IDF rule? I’m understanding it as meaning that the IDF and/or Israeli govt won’t act to stop and prosecute the perpetrators of these crimes when it’s based on the testimonies given anonymously; but perhaps what’s meant is that the soldiers giving their accounts won’t be prosecuted for speaking out when they do so anonymously.
Assuming the first of those two possibilities is what’s meant is why I added the John 8 quote; for I’m not inferring that I think the John 8 quote applies to these soldiers, who are greatly dissenting against continuing to be part of the internationally supreme crimes against the Palestinians.
Nope, I’m thinking the John 8 quote is fitting for repeating to the commanders. After all, the quote definitely fits them, their ways.
As is often said, “if the shoe fits, then slap it on”; and the IDF soldiers should properly fit their commanders with the above “shoe” or boot in John 8.
Rabbi, not rabbie; made a “typo.” above.
Also, the paragraph beginning with “That’s all fitting with present reality. Israel offered to financially help Jews worldwide, regardless of whether they’re semitic Jews,” should, in what I’ve quoted, end with “not,”, for Israel doesn’t care what actual origin these Jews relocating to Israel are from.
And where I wrote, “given the Israeli leadership doesn’t want to cause an uproar among Christians and “Christians” of the USA;”, Christians worldwide should be included, particularly those in the USA and Europe, without which or whom Israel can’t manage to carry out its reign of hell on Earth; although Israel’s far from sole to prosecute for its crimes.
Holden is right;
Crushing a little Unarmed 120 lb girl with a 23,000 lb Bulldozer is Israel’s right.
If They Feel Like It.
Cheney & the NeoCONS facilitate 9-11 and thus Iraq.
And NeoCON=ZIONAZISM.
That is a Million Plus Dead People.
Now we’re getting into Deaths in the Millions and invaded countries: That is NAZI in scope.
Khiam.
I just wish ALL the Bible-based murderers would shut up and do something about the God-monsters in their own midsts. PEOPLE already know how to get along, be flexible, sympathetic. Let them all tear down the “leaders” taking them boldly backward into the inevitable future, where the greatest sin (as The Bible says) is to love and make treaties with the neighbors who are not completely like yourself. “This is a war among children over who has the best imaginary friend.”
As an apologist for nazionism you should have more ambition than comparing Israel with Iraq and Sudan holden.
And mentioning Iraq…the chistians were left alone by Saddam Some , like Tariq Aziz reached a high level of power.
There is a consensus that Iraq and Sudan are failed states,even among the progrsssive nutcases like myself. And I cant remember anyone defending whats going on there..can you ?
Israel portray itself as an oasis of democracy and justice in the middle of barbarism and religious fanatism. Thats why I expect more from Israel. Besides, its fairly “kosher” to critizise arabs in the west,we hear that all day every day in every media-outlet. If you on the other hand should happen to utter a negative opinion of Israel you are vilified by Horowitz, followed by ADL’s Foxman and that idiot Alan Dershowitz.
Any menber of congress critizising Israel might as well start writing his political obituary. This terrorism of mind and political discourse will some day blow back big time.
Zionism has inflicted more harm on world jewry than Hitler could ever dream of. He only killed their bodies, zionism has killed their souls.
It is possible to care about all of the oppressed people everywhere; and even the oppresors. I do. But this article was about Israel’s mistreatment of Palestinians, so that is where our focus is in this thread.
How do we WAKE PEOPLE UP and get them to abandon their support for the Israel lobby & it’s congressional/executive support??
In 2004 I spent 12 days in Israel/Palestine–we spent time with and spoke with Israelis and Palestinians, including a settler family, a gentleman who’s 14 year-old daughter had been killed by a suicide bomber http://www.criticalconcern.com/rami_elhanan.htm http://www.theforgivenessproject.com/stories/ghazi-briegeith-rami-elhanan http://www.theparentscircle.org/ , an American Jewish gentleman who has moved to West Jerusalem, a Gentleman who works with a group of Jews and Palestinians to rebuild Palestinian homes destroyed by the IDF http://www.icahd.org/eng/ , the Israeli Human Rights group http://www.btselem.org/English/ , a Christian group in Bethlehem http://www.holylandtrust.org/ , a Christian family in Bethlehem that began a conflict resolution group http://www.nd.edu/~krocinst/alumni/zoughbi.shtml Two gentleman from the Israeli group Refusniks http://www.seruv.org.il/defaultEng.asp that resist service in occupied territories that was the impetus for the Breaking the Silence group http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp A Palestinian family in which the Mother is of Jewish decent and the Father is of Muslim decent, CPT in Hebron http://www.cpt.org/, Rabbis for human Rights http://rhr.israel.net/ , with whom we met with and then participated in a peaceful demonstration march against the wall being built on Palestinian land, at least for about 5 minutes until the IDF shot tear gas in front of, in the middle of and behind the peaceful international and local marchers in a neighborhood. Followed by rubber bullets and shock grenades, Islamicist, Israeli and Palestinian reporters, and a number of others. If you think our days were full, you are correct, but I did get a very good feel for what Palestinians must endure on a daily basis.
When a Zionist claims that Palestinians are not being blamed for the bad they do so therefore every bad thing the Zionist do must be overlooked, they are no different than the suicide bomber that makes the claim they are killing innocents because of the bad that has been done to them, and the circle of violence continues and will continue.
Rationalizing your evil because another does evil is not what we as loving people of God are to do.
“The essence of Torah, as summarized by Hillel’s statement “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow” (Shabbat 31a), reflects the experience and ethical consciousness of the Jewish people. The Torah states explicitly: “Do not wrong a stranger who resides with you in your land. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens: you shall love the stranger as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God” (Lev. 19:33-34). Our historical experience of exile and redemption, as well as our ethical consciousness, must sensitize us to the suffering of others and compel us to defend the rights of all who dwell among us.” http://rhr.israel.net/principles-of-faith
I beg your Forgiveness on the double posting.
It did not show-up so I thought it did not go through
” Jack37 April 27th, 2008 7:27 pm
I just wish ALL the Bible-based murderers would shut up and do something about the God-monsters in their own midsts.”
What’s done to Palestinians is NOT Bible-based, but many supporters of Israel’s hellish crimes are basing themselves on one little tiny passage in Scripture; while simultaneously disregarding, so transgressing one of the Ten Commandments, which are, for Bible believers, tantamount to the so-called promise God made of the Jews one day getting the so-called Holy Land back, a land that never was holy; certainly no more than the rest of planet Earth is anyway.
But while the Israeli leadership and the leaderships of the USA, etc., pretend to be acting based on their religious faiths, though not all apply this pretense; well, this is only for appearances, not for real reason for the GWoT or for supporting criminal Israeli govt.
It’s not the lunatics basing their support for these crimes on Scripture who really rule these govts.
Israeli leadership, Zionists, criminal and violent ones, wanted to force establishment of Israel and expansion of it, but it’s not due to believing in Scripture’s dictates, for if it was for that reason, then far more important passages or texts make it clear that the Holy Land is NOT going to be returned with any help from God when the human actors land-grab with violence or any other injustices.
The rulers don’t care about the Bible, except to use it as the charlatans that they are would.
Ever hear of ’strategy’, ’strategising’? It applies with what these govt rulers have been doing for many years now; and it should be obvious to everyone, by now.
Charlatans strategise in order to fool, dupe people into unwittingly becoming victims.
That [is] what the leaders of these govts are. CHARLATANS, and they’ll diabolically make use of religion in order to try to cover up the real motives for their crimes.
American Jews are being confront with the moral questions of murdering Palestinians civilians in their home, in retaliation for Hamas rocket attacks. Zionist are only intent on disposing of another million Palestinians.
Killing them or forcing them to move off their land, is Israel’s secret agenda.
Is this the National Identity of the Jewish Homeland, that Jews in the United States dream about ????????????
The Palestinians are the victims of the New Holocaust !!!!!!
.
Einstein said all that evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing. These soldiers have tried to be good men, and speak of the injustices done to the Palestinians. There is a God and He expects justice and respect for all people, even your enemies, Jesus said so. There are extremists on both sides, and these are the ones causing most of the problems. I would think the average person just wants a life, a life like any of us do, a home, a job, a family. When hatred and intolerance is taught to children, on both sides, how much more evil can you get than that? Instructing children in hatred is sick and disgusting, an 11 year old Palestinian throwing a molotov cocktail? I have seen pictures of very young Israeli girls writing slogans on the missles to fired at Palestinians, all of this is insane, and sick.
These Soldiers who came forward are Good Men.
Blessed Are The Peacemakers, For Their’s is the Kingdom of Heaven….
As for the child-killers, their destiny is clear too; Are they already there?
Holden,
Zionists like you keep blaming the Palestinians for the crimes of Hitler.
I am a Jew also but if I was an Arab, by now I would hate the Jews too.
Just like Ben Gurion said, he would be a militant if he was an Arab.
It wasn’t the Palestinians who funded Hitler, it was the Bushes the Rockefellers the Rothschilds and Warburgs and the Fords and your Zionists did nothing because you wanted to use the persecution of the Jews as a pretext to take away the Arab land that was ruled much more fairly by the British after World War one.
The Palestinians did not take away your homes and land and you Zionists have killed scores of them for every Israeli killed in this war and violently drove 800 thousand out right after Israel got its Independence from the UN and then violated every mandate and resolution of the UN since.
Your statement here shows what a bigot you are:
“By the way, Rachel Corrie was defending a shipment of weapons that was coming into that house via underground tunnel. Israel has the right to defend itself, no matter who may be the aggressor…”
How was she defending the shipments of arms? Was she pointing a gun at your troops? Would it have been too much to simply arrest her for defending the house?
It was Nazi-like Just like the brutality and war crimes told by brave Israeli solders above.
Since You and most Zionists always justify your crimes as defense against anti-Semitism and you are probably not a Semite but one who justifies real anti-Semitism, the crimes against Palestine, I must call you on your cowardly talk.
And now you Justify it by saying that the Nazis in Europe and the USA in Iraq are much worse…. Maybe, but that is no excuse but the excuse of a bigot.
Everyone in the world is scared and numb from watching this endless madness everyday… there is only one just thing to do and that is to talk to your enemies and end the slaughter.
Obama is too young to know what I do but he will learn and Jimmy Carter will help him get it right.
Shalom
It seems that good guys and truth are brushed aside,or silenced. In 2007 in the USA, a group of soldiers whom had served in Iraq toured parts of the country during a “soldiers speak out” rallies.
What happened? Absolutely nothing. The people, the admin., and congress remained mute.
Doron Efrati says:
[this technique was not carried out to target specific militant activity, but to instill fear.]
That’s terror, or terrorists.
One post tried to compare the Palestinians to Hitler,or the Nazis. that’s ludicrous. Which country has palestinians invaded and occupied? Israel and the USA are following Hitler’s script.
As a Jewish non-Zionist American, I never cease to be disgusted by the actions of Israel against the people who they so cruelly ethnically cleansed in 1948 and again in 1967.
How the Jews thought that they could come into an Arab area, take over the lands and resources of the local residents and then live happily ever after is beyond me.
Once having supported the Jewish state, I have come to the conclusion that after the Holocaust, Israel is the worst thing that has happened to the Jewish people. Not only has it turned us into a people hated by much of the world but a people that has turned into an oppressor people.
I am grateful to the brave IDF members of Breaking the Silence. Would that their testimony be seen on every TV channel and on the front page of every newspaper so that Americans will finally know the truth about the state that says it represents all the Jews. Americans will also know that there are Israelis who are sick and ashamed of what they have done. To me, these young men and women represent the true tenets of Judaism. Long my they live.
The dark side of Christianity and Islam comes from the dark side of Judaism, as Gandhi said “an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.” Though the Torah has some sections that are true spiritual inspiration such as the wise forgiving Joseph the dreamer in the multicolored coat or the compassionate Prophet Jeremiah other sections such as the teachings of the “Prophet” Samuel are dark and evil espousing butchery and genocide. No wonder 30% of the non-Asian Buddhist in the USA are of Jewish ancestry, they used their intelligence for a meditative spiritual path that works to overcome egotism, greed and hatred. Monotheism has always had a large degree of cruel fanaticism. Recent archeological findings of the workers of Pharaoh Ikhnaton’s city show the workers were starved and badly mistreated. Ikhnaton the first historical monotheist went from being an idealist visionary to a deluded fanatic religious tyrant. Meditative philosophers and some physicists seek understanding of a Timeless Infinite Unity, but we need to get rid of the monomania delusion of monotheism of some eternal ego granddaddy in the sky otherwise we will continue to have major divisions in the world with the resultant cruelty.
Thanks Jim Glover and Truthseeker. I wish people like you had a greater voice in the MSM. Unfortunatly, we only hear from Holden types in our media.
Jim Glover April 27th, 2008 9:59 pm
Reply to Holden….”Zionists like you keep blaming the Palestinians for the crimes of Hitler….”
VERY WELL SAID!!!! Thanks for telling the truth…I have friends who are jewish and they are appalled by Isreal’s Govt actions against Palestinian civillians….
US imperialism supports the Zionist state in order to divide and conquer the Middle East. Shia vs. Sunnis, Jews vs. Arabs, Christians vs Muslims, etc - this is all simply part of the old Western imperialist plan to control the Middle East and its oil wealth. Divide and conquer.
Jim Glover: I second simonhhh, Very Well Said!
Holden: Too much bitterness, my friend. Nobody’s perfect, but the facts speak for themselves. The Zionists in Israel are not the nicest people to deal with. Remember Rabin? It wasn’t a Palestinian child who bumped him off, it was an Arab-hating Zionist who pulled the trigger.
Mike Corbeill: Good article on a good website.
BeForKids; In my imagination, we finally have our first female president. Kathyodat! You are gifted with words from the heart. GBS would be proud of you.
The lust for power and money and material possessions rages on across the planet. This affliction must be overcome within ourselves if there is ever to be equality and a real brotherhood of man (and women). Real peace, real harmony where the entire military system on this planet is dismantled and future generations will learn about armed force by studying history or in museums housing military items. It may be “the Impossible dream,” as the song goes, but worth the effort in the long run. We owe it to ourselves and to posterity and it might even work!
Good on him, as US Public Television continues to play reruns of Nazi atrocities against Jews….
as if they are the only peoples in the history of mankind to be done wrong.
Holden has been conditioned by generations of a hypocritical ProIsraeli cum Nazi propaganda machine which avoided the most blatant truth:
That the illegal state of Israel was manufactured by destroying the Palestinians and their entire way of life!
Forget it Holden, your lies don’t fly here!
Holden his dick in his hand…
LOOK AT THE SOURCE, CSM, AGAIN not any main US media. Also CD this is not a news flash this is common knowledge for anyone with open eyes and doesn’t have a 6 pointed star up their butts.
And where is holden to defend his nazionist propaganda? Or he doesn’t have the balls to hear the truth from Jim Glover et al?
Umm, one other thing, Holden. In your scenario, somebody must be dousing those Fur with holy water before massacring them, because the Fur are a Muslim people.
Thank you Jim Glover and Truthseeker for setting Holden’s bigoted rantings straight.
Well wait a minute there guys, don’t put flowers on my grave until I repond!
Jim: You are not jewish. No jewish person would post on a site full of open anti-semites with the attitude you have. I don’t have any problem with non-jewish people, nor do I listen to jews more, so claiming to be jewish to make your point is not effective.
To all: I do NOT blame palestinians for the crimes of Hitler. I blame them for the crimes of the palestinians. Since before there even was an israel (Hebron massacre was 1929) the “palestinians” (i.e, the jordanian arabs living in what used to be israel) have been trying to massacre the jews both in israel and occassionally outside of it. For THESE crimes I blame them, not nazism.
Its plainly nonesense for a group of folks who support these guys to talk about nazism in the first place. I do not try and justify israel’s crimes. If it were up to me, soldiers doing the things described in this article would be put in prison. Compare this to the palestinian attitude! Palestinians CHEER IN THE STREETS when suicide bombers murder innocent men, women, and even children. Do israelis do this?
Of course I’m bitter. If you had to watch the slow-motion genocide of your people while supposed “progressives” cheered it on, you’d be mighty bitter too. Don’t count me out, you can’t put silly words in my mouth and you cannot silence me.
Truthseeker: I want to respond specifically to your comment that “israe; has made jews hated in the world”.
First of all, I also think that like Jim you are not jewish, but its irrelevant. Have you ever heard of the Inquisition? The holocaust? Jews have ALWAYS BEEN HATED, and furthermore, ALWAYS WILL BE HATED. We will be hated as long as we stand up for ourselves and do not bend to those who want us to adopt whatever the latest sacred cow of the age is. Two thousand years ago, it was christianity, then it was the catholic church, then it was the nazis, etc etc etc, and now its the palestinians. There will ALWAYS be those who are committed to our destruction, as it says in the torah. To back off in the face of arab barbarism for “pr” is to walk right back into subjegation. Since you are “jewish”, you know the passover ceremony, right? (right…)
Remember the bitterness of bondage, and remember why that night is different then all other nights. We don’t get anywhere by pleading with barbarians for our lives, we get there by faith in G-d and by standing by our beliefs no matter what the cost.
Wake up, seriously. You too Jim, if you are indeed jewish…
No matter what you do; “The truth always comes out im the end!”
Monday AM.
Three more DEAD BABIES AND A WOMAN.
MURDERED As The Sat Down To Breakfast When An Israeli Tank Shell Slammed Into Their Home.
Day In And Day Out,
The Jewish Nation Kills Children.
DRAPE ISRAELI FLAGS OVER THEIR LITTLE COFFINS.
KHIAM.
Mike, did israel mean to kill those kids? No. Do israelis cheer in the streets when they kill kids? no.
Sorry, but no comparison.
An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind.
Most of all the Jewish people I have known, are recognizable by their adept intellect and loving hearts. These are American Jews who have had the freedom to believe and worship- or not- as they choose.
This ‘warring Israeli Jew’ is something else altogether. They seem to be victims of groupthink from which there is no escape. Some kind of toxic wall has come up around these Israelis and not even reason itself can penetrate. Crimes agaist humanity are happening Now, not 40 years ago. For every one Jew killed, it seems a hundred Palestinians must die an inhumane death. This is just Evil..
I believe in the True Spirit and intellectual gifts of our Jewish brothers and sisters. What is happening in Israel is an abomination.
Every Earth Citizen is caught in the balance of this fight. All of our own lives perhaps hang in this balance. Therefore I and we have the right to question and criticize and bring up perspectives that maybe the Israelis have’nt considered.
Jimmy Carter represents the true spirit of Diplomacy; a dying art.
The soldiers that came forward are true Jewish Heroes.
Umm, Holden, it’s pretty irrelevant whether Israel meant to kill those kids or not. Israel knows what its weaponry is capable of; Israel knows that its attacks will kill civilians; Israel does it anyway.
As to whether Israelis cheer in the streets when they kill kids: I’m not sure it’s morally any better to respond “We can never forgive you for making us kill your children.”
Bark: Did it ever occur to you that american jews are the way we are because we do not face constant attacks against ourselves here? If I had to deal with arabs trying to murder me and my family everyday, being a “jewish intellectual” might start to fade on the list of priorities. Like most pro-arab people, you blame israelis for not allowing themselves to be victimized.
Corvo: I’m sure if I was the parent of those children israeli killed, I wouldn’t care whether they “meant to” or not. But in a moral sense there is a HUGE difference. Claiming the palestinians’ deliberate murder of israelis is the same as what israel does is to compare a poor driver who causes an accident with a serial killer. I don’t try and justify the poor driver, BUT YOU TRY AND JUSTIFY THE SERIAL KILLER!
No one who supports the palestinians can critisize israel, since whatever you claim the israelis are doing, the palestinians are doing MUCH worse!
Zionism has gone from being a dream of coming home to Eretz Israel to a shield people hide behind to defend the blatantly racist Israeli government.
What’s going on in the territories is not Zionism….it’s racism. Jews look back on the ghettos in sadness but that’s exactly whats happening to Palestinians today. Cities like Hebron and Qalqilya are Warsaw and Krakow for the 21st Century.
Jewish heroes did not give up their lives in the Warsaw uprising for this. They wanted nothing more than a place to live and worship freely without fear of pogroms and persecution. Most Palestinians want the same thing. If Americans had soldiers kicking down their door at 2AM geuss who they would support?
Holden: Sorry, no, I don’t buy that. If Israel wants to eliminate the terrorist threat against its own civilian populations, then let it eliminate the terrorists and/or their ability to commit acts of terror. But in fact Israeli military operations do little if anything to actually eliminate terrorists, or their ability to execute terrorist actions. A missile here, an assassination there–with obviously no effective results except to assuage Israeli outrage and to stoke Palestinian outrage.
The one notable exception is the Separation Wall, which I myself would find entirely legitimate if it followed the Green Line.
their Karma will catch up to them one day. Remember: what goes around comes around. They killed Jesus so what’s a few palastinians more or less. I say bomb the place with an atom bomb and get rid of the murderers. That would end the sickness among the jewish population. Hitler should have finished the job. I never felt that way until recently, over the last ten years or so. They’ll get theirs sooner or later. I’m not an arab or an arab lover. Just an American who hates bullies and lunatics, like Bush and co. who allows the jews to slaughter anyone who are against them with American made weapons. Millions of true Americans feel exactly as I. So keep murdering the innocent and you’ll soon get what’s coming to you. Jesus will return one day and put you people out like a cigarette. Amen.
People stop feeding the damn troll! Jeeeezzzz
Truth: The arabs do NOT want peace and freedom of worship. That is in fact the LAST thing they want and I suggest you take a look both at the hamas charter and at the koran.
Corvo: Yes, israeli tactics are worthless. Believe me, if I was in charge, I’d send in ground troops and either hamas would lose or israel would lose, but it would be decided if it had to come down to the last man. This “tit for tat” idiocy accomplishes nothing. I must say I’m impressed by your view on the wall as well and I completely agree with you.
Laddy: I was wondering when your kind was going to come out of the woodwork. So, we “killed jesus”, (are we romans?) and “hitler didn’t finish the job”? And you call US bullies??? Racist scum like yourself are the REAL reason for the problems in the middle east. Both israeli and palestinian racists continue to cause problems, though I would argue there are far more on the arab side. Jesus was a jew who said “love your enemies”. I think its pretty clean, if he really is the messiah, who he will be snubbing out, and it won’t be us, it’ll be YOU.
But thank you for proving my point. Hopefully Jim Glover, Truthseeker, and the other “jews” on here will see what you have said and hopefully wake up.
How about it jim? Do you think Hitler “didn’t finish the job”?
I am not a “troll” dc, I am a person who can argue, and I’m here to stay. Talking about hitler and whatnot is certainly not going to scare me away.
A tiny, failed state forged on barren terrain, Israel exists and exercises it’s disastrous foreign policy thanks only to billions of dollars of American taxpayer subsidies. If it weren’t for the fact that Israel is strategic Middle-Eastern real-estate for catastrophic yet profitable corporate-dictated policies, if the US, France, UK, Russia, etc. weren’t so keen in arming the region, if greedy G-8 arm-twisting tactics weren’t so pervasive and commonplace, Arabs and Jews would have a better chance of letting reason prevail. Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, since the rise of propagandist anti-semitism (weird since both Arabs and Jews are Semitic) in Europe, Arabs and Jews have been the pawns of superpowers, yet we have the gall to only blame Arabs and Jews for this chronic blood-letting
Shooter: Israel a failure? Israel has a booming high tech economy, and it was by israel that such things as wi-fi, instant messaging, and a whole host of medical technology has been invented. This is a failure?
I suggest you google israel/tehcnological advancements. You will be shocked by how many things, including posting on this very website, that were pioneered and/or invented by israel.
Of course this is way off topic, sorry I’ll get back to the soldiers next post…
Holden - kudos for Israeli technological advancements! but without $30 billion/yr aid - not counting military - Israel would never have developed as such. way off topic of course, but wi-fi has little to do with the obsessive pursuit of obtuse, militaristic colonial practices
30 billion? I think there’s an extra zero there but of course I get your point. Of course israel wouldn’t need that money if the people surrounding them weren’t always trying to kill them…
Israeli society produces scientists, palestinian society produces murdererous religious fanatics. Who do you “progressives” support, again?
Holden: yes, more than $30 billion in yearly subsidies from the US alone.
you have got to realize that “(insert ethnicity here)wouldn’t need that money if the people surrounding them weren’t always trying to kill them” is a classic, narrow, simplistic, dead argument that goes nowhere.
ditto for “(insert ethnicity here) society produces scientists, palestinian society produces murdererous religious fanatics”
it’s hard to produce science when your assets are frozen and your population is subject to ethnic cleansing
Israel’s trade deficit at $10.2 billion in 2007
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3493842,00.html
Israeli PM announces 30 billion US dollar US defence aid
http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2007/07/29/afx3963706.html
Ok, I see what the 30 bill thing was. That’s a lot of money, but that was a onetime deal. Typically our aid to them is 3.5 billion a year.
Its also hard to produce science when you consider science to be evil, and the only thing you teach your children is islam, killing jews, and making more little jew-killers. That doesn’t lead to much but violence.
Holden - research more, it’s not a once in a lifetime billion-dollar subsidy deal
it’s hard to establish peace when your most enlightening argument is a bigoted “you consider science to be evil, and the only thing you teach your children is (insert religion here), killing (insert ethnicity here), and making more little (insert ethnicity here)-killers.”
Despotic 20th century ethnic-cleansers with a stranglehold on the MSM have used your arguments sucessfully.
Israel works hard at suppressing the truth and erasing recent history in order to continue its policies toward the Palestinians. Thank you every Israeli who has the wisdom to know right from wrong and the courage to report what you have seen.
Shooter, what I’m saying about arab culture and islam is right. Again, just do some googling. One thing about groups like hamas is that they are very open and honest about their intentions. I also suggest you look into the koran a little bit. You can find offensive stuff in all religions. Judiasm is FULL of offensive, hideous stuff. However, jews can feel free to completely ignore these things (such as the penalty of death by stoning) and still be jews. Muslims, on the other hand, are taught that EVERYTHING in the koran is to be followed to the letter, and they really put in an effort to do so.
I will look up this subsidy deal, but I am fairly certain we are not giving them 30 bill every year. It was my understanding that was a one time deal in response to us giving a similar amount of aid to the arab gulf states. Not that I agree with giving out large amounts of money now, but we don’t just give it to israel.
Holden: Where do you get your information? In my limited experience Palestinians are not particularly uneducated. They have lots of professionals, artists etc. What you say is the predictable inferiority talk that comes out WHENEVER a group steals land and resources from others. And you know what, even if they were the poorest of the poor without any literacy, you still do not wall people into ghettos and deprive them of necessities of life and refer to them as animals.
Technological advancement alone without matching moral advancement is no proof of a higher level of culture. In one of his more cynical moments Albert Einstein said:
“Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal.”
Holden
generalizations of any faith are a sure way to simplistic, failed policy. during the golden age of Islam, Islamic thinkers were allowed to question wether religion was any good at all! just because Fox and CNN focus only on hype such as “war on terror” you shouldn’t let yourself be decieved. with the largest following by far around the world, most Muslims are moderates. I’m sure the majority of Israelis condemn stoning, but the Israeli elites setting policy resort to religious/ethnic polarization rhetoric to defend failed policies of occupation
People stop feeding the damn troll!
Shooter, don’t assume I’m ignorant of islamic history. Yes, a thousand years ago islam wasn’t the worst choice around. However, that was… a thousand years ago! Christians and jews were both much different back then as well. Just as I would say christians today are not responsible for the evils of christianity in the past, I also say that islam isn’t off the hook simply because of their history.
The point of my stoning comment is that NO jews do it today, despite the fact that it is in the torah as the preferred mechanism of execution. WE have changed with the times, and so have christians. Islam has not, and this should concern every one of us.
Israel’s occupation is and has always been for security purposes. The fanatical settlers might have other ideas, but they are not in charge in israel, the government is.
Hey dc, maybe YOU are the troll, since you have nothing substantive to say. I’m very impressed with the quality of discussion here as I fully expected responses like Laddy’s up there would be the majority. Instead I’m having a good convo with some reasonable people. Maybe you should join in?
Holden
“NO jews do it (stoning) today” that’s a lie, that’s what this article’s about - the callous murdering of innocents by a heavily-armed occuping bully
DC:
bigots weren’t exposed to unconditional love when growing up, and were most likely fed lies routinely. As a bleeding heart liberal progressive, I feel like I’ve gotta do sumpin’
Jclientele: Of course the palestinians are not “animals” and I do not call them that. However, you and many like you do not seem to ever focus on the violence and hatred that they have been spewing to jews in the region BEFORE there ever was an israel and certainly before 1967.
You are also right about technological advancement. But in my opinion the israelis have the morality that you speak of as well. ANY other country in their position would have wiped the palestinians out by now. Israel continues to try their best to solve this problem as humanely as possible while still protecting their citizens. Its a crappy tightrope to be on.
Shooter, I am referring to the biblical punishment of stoning people to death for violating the law (torah), I am not talking about people throwing rocks at each other. I probably should have used another example…
Holden
and I’m talking about IDF troops killing starving children with M-16s
zionists started openly terrorizing Palestinians when the British mandate ended in ‘48
Shooter: Starving children? How many palestinians have starved exactly? That’s just silly hyperbole. Israeli soldiers typically do not intentionally do this, and those that do face prison. Where’s the palestinians “speaking out” about THEIR crimes by the way?
Palestinians who kill israeli kids face the adulation of cheering crowds.
Perhaps the Israeli government does not stone people but I can tell you from personal experience that Settlers do!
As our group of internationals stood in an area of Hebron on a Saturday morning, we were there to escort Palestinian children that had been attacked by Jewish children in the past, to school. A group of Jewish settler children returning from Temple at the end of the street, stopped and began calling us Nazi’s. They then began throwing stones at us. Mind you, there are IDF soldiers on each end of this street in a Palestinian city. This street is closed to all Palestinians except children on their way to school and teachers on their way to school.
The soldiers stood by and did nothing as these young Jewish children threw stones at us and called us Nazi’s.
Our crime!
Being willing to aid young children in getting to school. This makes people Nazi’s!?
So, indeed some do still believe in stoning and are obviously teaching their children that it is acceptable to stone people.
BTW, this is not the only time stones have been and are employed by Jewish settlers, and it is not only children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_XhHfpDaMM
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582311-2,00.html
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=3744
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2007/10/palestinian-irony-watch-settlers.html
http://www.imemc.org/article/48194
I could cite many more sites but you can see this was not an isolated incident.
Holden
Holden
from you previous posts, it is clear that you are fond of using words loosely, that goes against reason, and I can’t go down that road any further. it is clear that you are steadfast in blindly supporting a failed policy, dream on… my last volley of sense to you:
many top playas such as Condoleeza Rice frequently highlight “Palestinian terrorists”
on the Palestinian plight:
A Million Palestinians Threatened with Starvation by
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/04/27/18495346.php
The oppressed becoming the oppressor is no better. If my fellow Jews continue to wear blind man glasses and say, ” can’t you see we’re the victims?” there will never be peace. When all you use is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
What’s going on in Gaza is no better than the Warsaw Ghetto. The IDF (sic- it’s not a defensive force, it’s an offensive force, very much like the DOD is a misnomer).
Rachel Corrie was a world patriot and an American who we should emulate. She was trying to show another way out of hatred. Strange how her act of peace is twisted into “protecting terrorists” and slaughtering civilians is seen as “protecting Israeli civilians”.
60 Minuters had a public relations piece on the Israeli Air Force. Horseshit.
The IDF veterans who came forth to speak about what they had seen and done are the real patriots of Israel. Just as the Winter Soldiers who testified are real American patriots.
Shooter, I am no supporter of the bush admin, believe me! Even if they seem pro israel they have done nothing positive for israel at all.
You are the one falling for irrational propaganda. Again I ask you, HOW MANY PALESTINIANS HAVE STARVED? We’ve been hearing that palestinians are about to starve for years, so where is this starvation?? Its just more hyperbole, same as comparing israelis to the nazis or claiming they are committing genocide. Its just words with no meaning.
You are not jewish bill. I remain convinced I am the one jew who posts here.
sheesh holden! holden on tight to that sinking raft?
dude, the israeli army needs tough guys like you, half-men with a loose lip who can’t be bothered by facts and complexity. why aren’t you in Gaza right now doing your patri-idiotic duty instead of spurting onanistic diatribes on a comment thread? can’t afford to buy a ticket to the promised land? Pat Robertson will be happy to help you with that! but you gotta promise you are going into that shithole west bank to kick some arab butt while screaming your righteous vomit! promise me you’ll go? how can america justify being an asshole if little assholes like you don’t do a great job of fucking things up?
Rescue do you have any response to anything I’ve actually SAID?
Yea, you are right. I feel guilty that I sit here in the USA, living a good lifestyle, while jews in israel have to fight for what I take for granted. But I’m not going over there to fight for them for the same reason you arn’t going over to fight for the arabs. Laziness? Complacency? I don’t know.
Jewish people Do have places to go where they are not required to be killers or killer sympathizers. In fact they dont even need to leave Israel -if they were truly willing to share.
You know, if I were to break this dilemma down to a most personal one, I would have to ask myself what I would do. If I were surrounded by people who want to kill me and my family.. I personally would leave -OR- I would stay, and be a part of The Solution to the problem. I wouldnt stay so that I could stoke wicked fires; putting myself and loved ones at risk. No, that is where this IS a personal choice. This choice is intrinsic to our humanity and evolution; do you stay and become a killer? - or is there another way? These soldiers are bucking Israeli groupthink and speaking truth. Truth will set us all free.
Hey Holden-Go someplace else with your garbage….This site is for people of all stripes who care about this world, and all the people in it, regardless of their beliefs. The problem with Zionists like yourself is that you believe in nothing-as a result, anything is acceptable-very much like your garden-variety psycopath…It’s the only reason you people got this far-but believe me, the blow-back for you bastards will be horrific. You’ll pay for the sins you people have committed against people who really care in this world. Do us all a favor, and tear your own throat out, you cowardly, hateful bastard..
Cheers..
Holden you’re not worth my time or effort…besides blowback is a bitch and its a comin.
holden:
oppressive military occupation is the cause of, not solution to, acts of violence (whether that violence be done by Palestinians, Native Americans, Algerians…)
Charles, the problem with comparing the situation in israel to that in algeria or the native americans is that in the middle east, jews have lived for thousands of years. Perhaps not as israel, but there were jews in the region always, 600k of whom were violently thrown out of their countries in 1948. (you never hear about that though, do you)
Europeans had no connection at all with north america, and france had no connection to Algeria, when these places were invaded and colonized. Furthermore, in the case of israel, it was not the israelis but the controlling british who started partition.
Puppet: Cowardly, hateful? It counds like you are describing yourself not me. Its utterly idiotic to claim I am the nihilist here, when you guys have been bending over backwards to justify everything from suicide bombings to islamic fundementalism for years now. I am not the nihilist.
Holden-You’re a troller-Go Away.
……And take your lame-ass Zionism with you.
Cheers..
Puppet I am not a troller, you’re the troller.
sorry everyone, yes I’m a troll, I’ve got nothing better to do, and this beats playing with myself. you see, I can’t really absorb facts since they don’t matter in the face of righteousness
May the Karma of those who cause and commit such acts against the innocent and those who protect such people - arrive to greet them sooner than later - and last through eternity
The above post was of course not me. I can’t believe how idiotic you are puppet, to be cloning my name instead of responding to what i say. Cloning me isn’t going to make me go away either.
Holden writes:
“Mike, did israel mean to kill those kids? No. Do israelis cheer in the streets when they kill kids? no.”
There are far too many incidents like this, where all the victims are unarmed children, for me to believe it is not deliberate policy on the part of the IDF. Whether they individually target the children, or merely use rules of engagement that they know will result in the children dying, this is deliberate. I presume you defend this by saying the IDF is merely guilty of incompetence or cowardice (my words, you’d use euphemisms).
“No one who supports the palestinians can critisize israel, since whatever you claim the israelis are doing, the palestinians are doing MUCH worse!”
Quantify this please. How many deaths per year, Palestinian vs Israeli? Houses demolished? Hours held up in checkpoints in one’s own territory? Land stolen?
You speak as if Israel is in great danger from the Palestinians. This is total BS. A Jew is far safer in Israel than a US citizen is inside the US. For example, total Jewish deaths due to the Palestinian conflict plus due to traffic accidents is lower than the US traffic accident death rate.
Israel may have found a solution to pesky soldiers speaking out against the atrocities they’ve witnessed.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/920802,robotsoldier042908.article
gde that’s simply idiotic. Of course there will be those incidents when you have heavy ordnance going off in a crowded neighborhood. But who is it that’s using those civilians as human shields? Not the israelis.
Israel is in danger by the palestinians are their allies in the muslim and arab world. They could slip in a chemical or nuclear weapon at any time, and also at any time a coup could produce an arab country at war with israel. This could happen tomorrow, and yet you expect, what? That israel will simply sit back and allow the palestinians and others to set the security agenda for them?
That would certainly even up the death toll a bit! And the death toll is irrelevant, in the sense that it does not convey any moral issues. If those israelis were civilians killed on purpose by the palestinians, then 5 of them dead is worse morally then israel killing a million terrorists. Of course innocent palestinians die. But they don’t die because israel wants them to die, unlike the israeli civilians killed PURPOSELY by the palestinians.
By your “moral reasoning”, the United States was the “bad guy” of WWII. After all, WAY more germans died then americans!
holden,
Yes there were jews in the region prior to ‘48, nonetheless, the majority of jews in Israel came from europe recently, and have since been taking land and resources from the indigenous population, and using the required violence to do so. Even most mainstream Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris, concede these points and provide the research to back them up.
Holden, if the Israelis are not shooting, the non-militants are not shields. It is the IDF that turns them into shields. They all live in a small place, militants and civilians are together except for rare incursions into Israel proper.
Israel has the NBC weapons, not the Palestinians.
There aren’t a million terrorists for Israel to kill, unless we define all military personnel as terrorists (which is a legitimate thing to do in the case of the IDF and US military). If Israel killed a million Palestinians, fractionally few would be terrorists, and the greatest number not. A fair exchange would result in hundreds of thousands of dead Israeli children, something neither you nor I want. (Not that a fair exchange would happen.) I note that at 5 Israelis to 1M Palestinians, you seem to be orders of magnitude beyond the Heydrich doctrine.
Israel purposely kills civilians, since it uses tactics that kill many. Your statement that Israel does not target civilians is an opinion, I sincerely doubt you have any knowledge of the truth. A recent article in CD quotes 5 IDF veterans as saying they did target civilians, inciting demonstrations by invading personal property and then shooting the demonstrators. Orders to do so came from their commanders.
Much of what the US did in WW2 was bad, especially use of mass extermination of civilians as a terror tactic. It also greatly expanded the Asian war for the sake of thwarting the democratic will of the US people.
Hey Holden-No one is ‘cloning’ your name here. I didn’t answer to what you said because it wasn’t worth it.
Look man, just about everyone on this thread is here because they give a damn about everyone involved here. Your argument that Israel is a victim in all this is hogwash. oh suuurre.. A victim with nuclear weapons, etc… No one knows how many, or who they’re pointed at for that matter. Israel kills it’s own regularly, as do other governments around the world-your folk are no different. What is truly disgusting is how those right-wing Zionist bastards have hijacked Judaism, and taken all jews hostage along with it, and continue to terrorize and kill them as well to keep everyone on the same page, as opposed to letting them live in peace.
And besides, Holden, what the hell makes you think I would clone your name anyway??? Was it something I said?? Personally-I would never do that anyway-no need for me to do so-your own words speak for themselves, as other posters have already showed by jumping on your ass as well. You can’t do that here anyway….
Soon the whole world will know the real meaning behind this so-called ’special relationship’ we have with this ethno-centric so-called state you adore so much. And the day for smugly congratulating yourselves will come to an end. It’s people like YOU and your right-wing buddies who piss on the memories of ALL those who died at the hands of the Nazis.
There’s two sides to every conflict, Holden…No matter how the words are twisted…..
Cheers…