Religion-Politics Mix Gives Rise to Fear
I grew up in a household where among our many guests were older people with tattooed numbers on their arms. They spoke with accents — Polish, German, French.
These were friends of my parents who had survived Nazi concentration camps — the Holocaust — and lived to tell their stories. And what they spoke of, over and over again, was the danger that comes when government dictates which religion is good and which religion is not (and thus which religion’s adherents are good or bad).
They had lived in countries where the very fact that you were a Jew meant you couldn’t hold certain jobs, live in certain areas, attend certain schools — where, ultimately, in its most horrific manifestation, being a Jew meant you were targeted for death.
I lived in a household where the memory and evidence of that Holocaust was directly and powerfully linked to the belief that America was a safe place because this country clearly separated religion and the state.
But these days, I see that changing.
I’m a Jew and I’m scared.
It’s not just that Mike Huckabee, an Evangelical and self-described “Christian Leader,” won the GOP Iowa presidential caucus last week.
It’s the photos of his supporters praying and holding American flags.
Jews don’t feel good or safe when flags and religion get all mixed up. Put government and the Church or the Koran or Bible together, and Jews usually lose. (You’ll probably say the state of Israel — whose flag bears the Jewish Star of David — puts the lie to that theory, but I’d disagree. The very theocratic nature of the state of Israel has led to the current profound threats to its legitimacy, both as a nation and a democracy. I know, I’m half Israeli, daughter of two families that fought for Israel’s establishment.).
But back to Huckabee.
My fear didn’t really start with him, but it’s flowered in the last few days of a presidential campaign that’s been marked by candidates shamelessly pandering to the Christian electorate, falling all over themselves in the God stakes to demonstrate who’s a better Christian.
It’s been growing, though, over the last decade, when the principles that had kept me feeling safe and secure as a Jew in America have been under attack.
In elementary school, I remember how awful it felt to sing carols in our annual Christmas assembly — because singing the words in praise of Jesus felt like I was doing something terrible, for which I would be punished.
And how much of an outsider I felt when Christmas trees went up in all our classrooms. And how really bad it felt when some boys locked my brother in a classroom and forced him to push a penny around on the floor with his “Jewish nose.” Or when I got such anti-Semitic hate notes in my bookbag that I finally left the school I’d been in for only five months.
But in the years since I was a child, through court battles and the evolution of our consciousness as a democratic and pluralistic society, our country seemed to be well on the way to carrying out the promise of our founding fathers and the First Amendment, that America would be a society where no religion would be favored by government:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Christmas trees and churches in front of city halls were banned, Hanukkah and other religious minorities’ holidays found their way into holiday celebrations at school, a Jew was selected to run for vice president.
Yet along with this evolution came counter-revolution.
Just as societies being forcefully modernized in Africa, Asia and the Mideast developed their own homegrown extremists, along came America’s versions: the Moral Majority, the more violent fighters of the abortion battles, the growing electoral power of the Christian right, without whom, it seemed, Republicans felt they could not win the White House.
And then came the presidential primary race of 2007.
My jaw dropped when Mitt Romney said that “freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom.” No, freedom doesn’t require religion, Mr. Romney, and whoever has been giving you history lessons needs to re-read the Constitution and the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause.
What is it about “no” (as in “no law respecting an establishment of religion”) that you don’t understand?
The otherwise rational and well-informed John McCain said he thought the Constitution established a “Christian nation.”
Where does that leave folks like me and my children?
Hillary Clinton has a “Faith, Family and Values” team on her campaign staff.
Can we please stop hiding behind euphemisms and call “faith” what it really is: “religion”?
Democratic primary candidate Bill Richardson told a crowd of Iowa voters that their state needed to maintain its first-in-the-nation status “for constitutional reasons, for reasons related to the Lord.” Oh, please. And the Lord wants New Hampshire to vote second, right?
And while Americans rail against the Taliban’s atavistic treatment of women, Republican caucus voters in Iowa just chose a man, Huckabee, who has said that he agrees with the statement that “a wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband.”
America is not on its way to forming concentration camps.
An African-American has just been chosen as winner of the Iowa Democratic caucuses.
My children, both Jews, can largely join any club they want, go to any school they like, choose any profession to which they’re suited.
This is not pre-Nazi Germany.
But we are on a dangerous path — one that is fundamentally anti-democratic and un-American.
The growing population of Bible-thumpers on the campaign trail has distinct roots in American history, to be sure, but they are not proud roots.
They are the roots of prejudice and discrimination, of exclusivity and narrow-mindedness.
I have great respect for all this country’s religions — so much so that I chose to study religion in college and raised a child who has a master’s degree in divinity. Religion is is a deep and profound part of our political culture in America and I have no argument with that fact.
Yet it is the emphasis on one, favored form of religion, one kind of belief that is so frightening to me.
Hand in hand with the growing public acceptance of professions of Christian faith on the campaign trail is the implicit idea that this is the one faith that is true and correct, and which qualifies its holder for the presidency.
Like me, I do not think that the majority of Americans believe this to be so.
Naomi Schalit is Opinion Page editor for the Kennebec Journal and Morning Sentinel.
Copyright © 2008, Blethen Maine Newspapers, Inc.
In elementary school, I remember how awful it felt to sing carols in our annual Christmas assembly — because singing the words in praise of Jesus felt like I was doing something terrible, for which I would be punished.
I, too, felt uncomfortable when Christmas carols were sung and prayers were said because my family did not attend ANY church. Always was judged on this fact by the good Christians who thought that we would not grow up to be GOOD people. I still have friends who sincerely believe that you will not go to heaven unless you belong to their particular Christian faith.
I agree.
“Faith and Family Values” is always a cover for a Peyton Place lifestyle. Hypocracy and Religion always sleep in the same bed.
Religion and Freedom will never go hand in hand. They are actually opposites. Once someone gets hooked on the religion drug, they immediately try to hook everyone else on it too. Religious people routinely try to tell others how to live and what to do based on their own distorted version of reality. Religious people care nothing about freedom unless you are part of their own little clique.
Religious people will willingly commit any crime, any atrocity, or violate any civil rights as long as they think it will benifit their church or their diety.
I’m not Jewish, but I’m just as afraid. When America dies it will be from getting crushed under the foot of religious fascism.
This is a well-written, well-reasoned article, thank you so much. The MSM is asking why Romney did so poorly in New Hampshire, being next door to Massachusetts - believe, as a Massachusetts resident we are well aware of his hyposcrisy, and religion is only one of many issues.
As a non-religious Jew, I have always loved singing Christmas carols and have had a Christmas tree most of my life - I don’t begrudge Christians their “Merry Christmas”. However, I bristle when I hear “Christian Nation” and I cringe when I think of Mike Huckabee as the Republican nominee - although I do like many things about him. If he could only get rid of the religion card…
Naomi may be right, that it’s scarier than I’m willing to admit right now. I believe one of the reasons Kerry lost was that in the end he “found religion” and started spouting “God Bless Yous”; Hillary is doing the same thing, which will be her downfall.
You must have been aware of the Evangelicals waiting outside the Iraq border with packages that had little life support and more christianity once the US invaded Iraq.
The money in the churches goes to a whole bunch of missions in non christian countries.
Bush knows that the massive amount of monies he gives to “Relegious Institutions” for charity, there is only one mosque, synagogue or temple of worship in every city, while there are hundreds of churches, and several evangilical ones.
I agree with you, Naomi, that the religious fundamentalism issue in this country is becoming very scary. As a former Roman Catholic/Christian who is now an Earth-based-spirituality pagan, I may have more to fear than you do. The majority of people seem to equate paganism with atheism, both of which are protected by the Constitution. Native Americans were pagan and beleived in a Deity they called Great Spirit. I believe in my Higher Power, and I call her Goddess. Since no one really knows who or what “God” is, what does it really matter what the Deity is called or how people choose to honor what they believe.
When our Constitution is dishonored by politicians and those people who are in power, there is a cause for fear. As a pagan, I would certainly be a target for reproach by those fundamental religious who believe that they own the “truth.” The real “truth” is that there are many “truths” and each one is valid, except when fundalmentalism turns it into something that is no longer spiritual, non-judgmental, and truly holy.
I think we must each pray in our own way (and atheists certain pray when they send good thoughts out to the Universe) for this country to elect leadership that will set the Ship of State back on calm waters.
I agree with you Naomi, and thank you for your courage in saying it. It’s not just America, but the whole western world is seeing the rise of fundamentalism. You would think, seeing the problems fundamentalism has caused in the Middle East, that western leaders would be ony too keen to keep religion out of politics. Instead pandering to the evangelicals is seen as a way of getting extra votes, and building fundamentalist schools, funded by the public, is one of the demands that is met. Given your school experience though, I wonder how you feel about schools that cater only to students of a particular religion or sect (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Religion/) - part of the problem or part of the solution?
The premier “family values” issue we should work for in America is universal health care (that’s the CARE, not the “insurance” that needs to be universal.) The status quo (Republican) religious presumption that a man’s wife or children shall get health care IF the man is “successful” and wealthy (enough to be insured by the moneychanger crowd), or IF we demean both the man and the family with a WELFARE PROGRAM and a six-hour wait in the ER, is about as off-base from Christianity as we could get. And yet it lingers.
Pretty is as pretty does. Christian is as Christian does. Jesus is not to blame and He has not changed. But many faux followers, however, are stuck on the “thee and thou” of King James English, stuck in the rut of ritual, stuck on somehow kicking the butts of others in rival Christian or Non-Christian factions, and don’t know a family value from a communion wafer. Most of them lean Republican, too, for lack of better preaching of the real gospel at the church they attend.
“Family Values” are more than cutting taxes in the high brackets and using the anti-abortion speech platform to elect the taxcutters. We need the taxes to do the CARE that is the real valuing of family. The CARE, not the “insurance.”
Roger Williams, the founder of the Rhode Island colony in the 1630’s was a deeply spiritual person, he considered himself a Christian. He was kicked out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony (rapidly becoming a theocracy) for being too radical and a danger (a “corrupter of minds”) to others because he adamantly believed that the civil government (the state) should never legislate a persons belief, it was a “matter of conscience”. It was his belief that Christianity was a personal matter and to impose it on others was blasphemy, and in fact was sacrilegious. In his mind you either “got it” or you didn’t, and to legislate belief was an insult to his religion.
He, along with Anne Hutchinson, (also banned from Massachusetts), set up the first colony based on the separation of church and state, which eventually influenced the likes of Jefferson and others.
Rhode Island had the first Jewish synagogue, the first Quaker settlement and eventually became the home of a wide diversity of believers and non believers. All that diversity drove Williams and others crazy but they still allowed it because they believed that only in a completely free society could one find the truth.
See “Liberty of Conscience; Roger Williams in America” by Edwin Gaustad
Also an excellent recently published book is “Religious Freedom and the Constitution” by Christopher L Eisgruber and Lawrence G. Sager, who argue for “Equal Liberty”.
And a good web site is Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. www.au.org
I’m not an athiest, but my biggest fear for most of my adult life has been of the religious fanatics, brought about naturally by my interest in history.
What I know of the many activities of them in our society today, and all the things they’re striving for, and I’m even more scared.
I think it’s a little late to be noticing this trend!
Most of us have been concerned about this Fundie religious movement in America for the past two decades.
Flags and Bibles simply signal corruption in government — nationalizm and religion — home of the scoundrels.
Patriarcy and organized patriarchal religions have won out of the millennia thru violence.
How could any feminist belong to or support organized patriarchal religions?
And — to be noted — under the covers of war, fear, nationalizm, “god” talk — Halliburton has been building what look like concentration camps.
And, we do have corporate-fascism —
All fascism is based on exploitation of someone —
and upon myths of inferiority — of people of other religions, of females, of homosexuals, of immigrants.
And it wins thru violence —
Personally, I think all we have to do is look at the political violence America has suffered over the past 45 years to understand that fascism is crossing our threshold in America.
“America is not on its way to forming concentration camps.”
Yes we are. In fact, we’ve already got ‘em.
Gitmo and various “holding facilities” throughout the world are concentration camps, where unnamed people go to die. The are held, tortured, and killed by our government.
Thanks for speaking out on this important topic! As an atheist, I’m happy to share the world with you
Naomi-
Thank you for a well-written article.
Years ago,the Repugs assisted right-wing fundamentalist Christians in taking over the public perception of Christianity by making media darlings out of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Today, the Repugs are assisting right-wing fundamentalist zionists in taking over the public perception of Judaism by making media darlings out of Bill Kristol and Tim LeHay.
You are right to be afraid but please remember the words from Dune: “Fear is the mind killer.” Keep learning and keep speaking out Naomi. Your voice is the voice of the silent majority.
I couldn’t agree more with at least 90% of what you say, but there is a glaring mistake that I’m frankly surprised that no commenter has pointed out. You say
“… The very theocratic nature of the state of Israel has led to the current profound threats to its legitimacy, both as a nation and a democracy…”
Not true. Not even close.
What has led to what you describe as ‘profound threats’ is not its theocracy. The land that is now Israel had been the home of Jews, Muslims and Christians for thousands of years, without any notable problems. And then Israel was established as a Jewish nation, after WWII, and Palestinians were forcibly ejected from their land, homes and livelihoods without compensation. That’s where the refugee crisis in Gaza came from and that’s the cause of the overwhelming outrage among Arabs. Well, that and the continuing settlements by Israel on Palestinian land. And the fact that Israel’s legitimacy rests on continuing military threats, subsidized by the U.S., to it’s neighbors.
This blog will probably be taken down and I’ll be charged with anti-Semitism. The fact remains, whether or not anyone is listening, that there are perfectly legitimate ways to guarantee Israel’s survival but first Israel has to become a decent neighbor.
The fact that the U.S. is so closely linked with Israel’s defense poses a ‘profound threat’ to America. This fact was the subtext of the 911 report, and was later acknowledged by its authors. I’m worried about us.
I think the scariest thing for Israel is the current tide of public opinion which seems to be turning toward fair treatment for the Palestinians. There are headlines daily detailing Israel’s lastest bad behavior. I think that’s what you should be afraid of, if you want to be afraid. Better yet, why not give up being afraid and start working with numerous other Jewish Americans to change Israel.
ALL religions, are an embarrassment to humanity.
They have been shit disturbers, ever since they were invented. Their “love”, consists of bigotry, racism, hate, and violence, against those who do not submit to their ‘one true path”.
A pox on all their houses.
Chump II, as an evangelical, believes the chosen people need to be protected.
Since “Judeo-Christian values” impart a favorable glow to any candidate, we’re going to hear and see advertising.
No more fear is necessary in the US; cordoning off and disenfranchising people today is achieved with more sophisticated mechanisms (including fear.) Naomi’s kids can attend any school they want if they have the front money, as can muslim children. (un-American is meaningless)
The greatest sin is being unwilling to consider the possibility that you may be mistaken.
If I can’t be wrong, especially if God has assured me of my infallibility, I am capable of anything. Everyone always has been.
“America is not on its way to forming concentration camps.”
Really?? - they’ve been contracted for since 1999 and are presently underconstruction.
Get informed - get real.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/32647/
jolyjuly,
I wouldn’t say you were anti-semitic. A revisionist moron, maybe.
The Palestinians are in such a sorry state, because they never miss a chance to screw up. They and their Arab neighbors keep picking a fights and getting their butts kicked. A sane group of people would have figured it out after the third or fourth go around, but no.
From the time they first tried in 1948, until the last major war in 1973, they have been on a mission of extermination. I defy you to tell me the Israelis would have fared better than the Palestinians if the Arabs had won just one of those wars. You can’t, because you know if they had won, they would have committed genocide. It was part of the PLO’s mandate up until the Camp David accords.
Is Israel perfect? Hardly. Their invasion of Lebanon was as huge a mistake as our invasion of Iraq. Their settlements on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem are ridiculous impediments to peace.
There is a group of former fighters and current snivelers trying to rewrite history and you have bought it hook,line, and sinker.
Ken
soon the mounting American jobless will have no other option to find a meal other than at Christian churches(Faith Based Initiatives) 3 “squares” a day to fight the cold homeless nights.
I would rather starve to death and go to hell.
Theocracy + Nationalism = Reactionary Conservative Dictatorship
The historical account is soaked in blood for what’s been done in religion’s name. Anyone who likes choosing their lovers, what they believe in, how they think, what they read, who they congregate with, and the ideals they identify with would have a problem if the authoritarian Christian reich takes over… and tragically, it is making progress. The catch 22 here is that people cleave to such belef systems, religious versions of “father knows best” when they become afraid. Thus when an administration, beholden to weapons’ producers and suppliers sells fear to guarantee profit, the fearful rush to patriarchal houses of worship. Leave it to the father/fuhrer to guarantee their “safety” and “security.”
If the rules of these religions really edified anything, we’d not see holy war this late in mankind’s game, i.e. the 21st century.
I call upon DOOM & GLOOM to once again apprise the forum of his rather original “Bible thumper,” a must have… if only to humor ourselves in times of a rising Dark Age.
I hate to say this, but I think what our country needs is Mike Huckabee. He’ll sort of be our “Pearl Harbor” of religion…the thing that really wakes us up to the true dangers of religion. It’ll be a tough pill to swallow but at least it’ll help get the disease out of our system.
siouxrose - “If the rules of these religions really edified anything…” Very good point. Along these lines, something that always befuddles me is how the Catholic Priest issue never causes Christians to make this leap: If my religion can’t stop someone who has devoted his life to its teachings, i.e. priests, from commiting immoral acts with young boys, how effective can it be?
“My children, both Jews, can largely join any club they want, go to any school they like, choose any profession to which they’re suited”.
True for Jews not so true for Muslims. Look at Barack Obama getting flack because his father was a Muslim. Look at the fact that Muslims make up as much as 6% of the population and there are no Muslim Senators and no Muslims who hold high office in this country.
In some ways this is worse than Germany when it went fascist. We knew better then. We have the ability to communicate ideas to almost all the people. We have all history to review for good and bad examples. We have a tradition of some level of democratic tradition.
We have other choices. Not all good, but FASCISM - HOW STUPID ARE WE?????????
In India where I lived for two years during the 70’s as a teacher at an international school, I was aware of the sadnesses of their religious culture (eg the caste system). However, one thing they got right was their whole-hearted celebration of the religious holidays of all religions - Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian etc.
We might do well to embrace the traditions of many groups. And besides, living at peace with others is a rather pleasant notion. When Christians buy into that line, they could truly become the religion of love. Until then, too often just another way to control people; sincerely misguided.
United States Forces are providing security to Iraq borders with Syria - no Iraqi authorities in sight.
Very recently they began a new procedure for younger Iraqis crossing to Syria:
1. Retinal scan to be added to a database.
2. Very thin bar coding about 2 inches long printed on back of right hand in indelible ink which does not come off.
Practice for U.S. ?
And now they got their own Air Force, too!
“‘Our purpose for Campus Crusade for Christ at the Air Force Academy is to make Jesus Christ the issue at the Air Force Academy and around the world,’ Scott Blum, the former Academy Campus Crusade for Christ director.”
God blesses death from above, don’t ya know. American death from above, that is. If the “Christians” in this country actually led a Christ-like life, the poor would be fed, we’d all have free health care, greed would be an anomaly and not the norm, war would be eradicated, the Earth would be in tip-top shape, and obesity would be unheard of.
Hypocrites unwilling to walk the talk.
Naomi-You say:, “This is not pre-Nazi Germany.”
Are you sure about that?
bigjoe31 January 10th, 2008 6:32 pm
“America is not on its way to forming concentration camps.”
Really?? - they’ve been contracted for since 1999 and are presently underconstruction.
Exactly!
But back to Huckabee.
A ‘flat’ tax so that the rich can eat the poor? That’s compassion for you.
What did Jesus charge to heal the lame or cure the blind? What was the bill for that Happy Meal of loves and fishes to feed the hungry?
Immigration Amnisty. What was that parable about the laborors in the vinyard? Amnisty?
Next on the Evilgelical’s list is a constitutional ammendment to deny automatic citizenship for people born here. Cute. How about limiting citizenship to only those whose ancesters were here before Columbus. If we do that then I think most of America’s problems would be solved.
It’s not a lack of faith (blind trust) but a lack of experience of the spirit. We are not the center of the universe but just part of the one.
America has re-entered the dark ages where priests and kings will avow their allegiance to religions, even they themselves don’t believe in, so as to control the world.
This is the reason Europeans hazarded themselves across the Atlantic Ocean in the 1600’s. To get away from the fanatical inquisition-ors. To get themselves out of that European nightmare of mental disease known as mandatory conformity to one religion.
Just say No to Christians: tell them to their faces that they have the belief system of little children. Most of them know this to be true: but since no one has ever taken the kool-aid out of their hands like that, they keep on bible thumping louder and louder because they know it is popular with such a dick-headd in the whitehouse as we now have.
Oh great gods of past and future fake religions!
Return us, I pray, to a new age of reason!
pac “enlightenment” plyer
The Constitution demands that church and state remain separate. President Thomas Jefferson penned the phrase “wall of separation between church and state” - and no number of re-tellings of the lie that this is a recent interpretaion of the Constitution will change that. (When they were a minority, the Baptists were quite grateful for that protection. How times have changed.)
Jesus told his followers not to be too deeply involved in worldly kingdoms, but rather to focus their attention on the “kingdom of god.” Remember, Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto god, that which is god’s; or Be in the world, but not of the world. He also spoke out against public displays of prayer/piety in public: Go alone into your closet to pray. (Can anyone offer more?)
So, just how can these people possibly be accepted as either good Americans or good Christians? Why are they allowed to flaunt their hypocrisy, essentially without challenge?
Organized religions have nothing to do with faith or spirituality: they are all about power, wealth, and control. Is it surprising that religion and politics are so attractive to the same sort of people?
Call out the phony religious whenever you chance upon them.
They don’t care what your religion, ethnicity, race, sexual preference or political preference is; if you let them invade your home, if you let them detain and torture you, if you let them murder you, they will.
Hitler; Stalin; Mao; Bush.
If you let them, they will.
Amen!
Amen Amennnn!
AAAAAAAAAAAmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnnn!
Naomi must be either very naive or in denial. Religious Zionism drives politics in Israel, and the dream of Greater Israel is behind the land grabs and the drive to push the borders out to fufill the Bible prophecy! “the subject of the Messiah has become increasingly central to many religious Zionists in Israel.. It is precisely when the belief in the Messiah’s coming starts to shape political decisions that the messianic idea ceases to be inspiring and becomes dangerous.” Joseph Telushkin. Jewish Literacy
Not all people are monsters.
Those people who choose to be monsters, are.
If you allow monsters to run your religions and prey on you, they will.
If you allow monsters to run your companies and prey on you, they will.
If you allow monsters to run your country and prey on you, they will.
If you don’t, they won’t.
Stevieray49:
Please refer to my post above for hi-tech version of your fears
Wow,
Alot of comments here. Well I was raised in rural Maryland and attended a mainstream protestant church. In my teen years I had other priorities, and was free not to attend. I went into the service in 1975 and started attended Sunday services on base. Before long I was being not asked but visited constantly to attend Sunday evening services, mid week services etc. I too was told if I only went on Sunday’s I was not truely a “Christian”. The Chaplain as well implied that. That was the first of many times I would be turned off by religion. Now days it is being pushed on people again in the public media and politics, that it makes me very Anti Christian, and “Turns me off” again.
Naomi is right. This is not pre-Nazi Germany. It is, however, a parallel and equally frightening universe.
The religious crowd only wants 10%?
That’s the funniest statement i’ve read in a long time.
Lets get real here. They want it ALL, and they have no tolerance, for anyone who does not buy into their extreme doctrines.
It’s their way, or no way at all.
History bears this out.
What is called religion now is merely another form of politics.
I went to church for many years. I no longer do. It is not that I no longer believe in God. I do. I have my doubts about whether much of organized religion does. The focus has moved away from God and into politics and political power.
The final blow for me was “Justice Sunday” when a US senator said “Democrats are against people of faith.”. I am an independent, not a Democrat. Nonetheless, if the comment was meant to refer to religion, it was a serious violation of the commandment that tells us not to bear false witness against one’s neighbor. If the comment was meant as pure politics, it was a explotation of religion.
Do not confuse the so-called religion of today with the real thing. It’s not.
As the saying goes:
You protect your power when you protect the power of others. What have you done for the Palestinians lately?
I am choosing to write this in another section, because I want to say to all those whose identification is Jewish and who have worked so ardently for the human and civil rights of others that the above comment does not pertain to all Jewish people. You stand among the best with people of all cultures, ethnicities and nationalities, as our brothers.
She has every reason to be scared! Every Christian, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Scientologist and Atheist should be terrified half out of their wits too! But I see far to many who aren’t. When a government starts dictating you have a religion in order to be a moral person. When they start berating people who don’t believe the same as they do. That’s when every patriotic American should start quaking in their boots. Because we are well on our way to becoming a theocracy. The biggest reason it goes against everything our founding father’s believed in and tried to establish over 200 years ago. It goes against the Constitution and Bill of Rights both. It means we have made the tragic mistake of allowing to much religion in government. Something that will likely destroy us in the end. Because it’s only a matter of time before religion’s start bickering among themselves and the blood shed starts. When George W Bush decided to start down that road after he was elected he should have been slapped back into place by every man, woman and child. American’s should have rejected his intrusion with every thing they had.
RIGHT ON: TUMBLEWEED, FRANK, and ASCOT.
KANE JEEVES: I would argue that the sexist foundation of Catholicism–making SEX a sin–is the reason why so many that enter its “calling” to serve as priests are themselves twisted in a manner that subverts their very humanity. With all due respect to gays (my spiritual beliefs are such that our souls are composed of strands of masculine and feminine archetypal components) I believe that intercourse is God’s own poetry. (I should preface this by stating when it’s acted on for love, or “high lust,” and represents positive desire on the part of BOTH consenting parties.) To demonize the basis for how creation continues to create itself is grounds for any theology shooting itself, and mass human psychology, in more than the foot! Wilhelm Reich as onto something when he recognized a link between a society that loses contact with its own instinct, and its embrace of an external authority figure then telling it what to do and how to act. In other words, the conscious orchestrated suppression of our sexual natures leads many to abandon their power as individuals and become easy subservients to authoritarian institutions, be these church or state, or the ugly marriage of the two. Making love is a radical act when nations teach hatred, divisiveness, and fear of the human body and the instincts placed therein.
To me there is a certain myopia in this article. First let me say that Christianity is frightening to my people as well. We are American Indians. We lost over one hundred million people to christian invaders. There is a problem with the Jewish People claiming the Holocaust as exclusively their own with no recognition of the American Holocaust. It demonstrates a selfish and purposeful exclusion of the American Indian Genocide. So as an Indian I fear both Christians and Jews. When Christians and Jews get together, Indians lose. Witness the continuing “Quiet Genocide,” against the American Indians.
Too bad the author failed to mention the candidates from both parties that agree with the authors sentiment; ones that follow the first amendment baring state sponsored religion.
Granted that it is important to point this issue out i think it is important that we also know, who is on the side of freedom, our govt has truly done some horrendous things, we should be proactive to make sure history does not repeat itself.
RE: StevieRay — hahahahahahahahaha. You’re an idiot.
RE: The editorial. I wish we’d see more alarm about the issue in the mainstream media. I hear too many people arguing the “Christian nation” stance when that is obviously directly counter to our founder’s intent and to common sense.
HR888 — JUST SAY NO!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.RES.888:
stevieray, Your post is a classic example, of the christian claim of superiority. Superior work ethic, with just a touch of bigotry towards the french for good measure. Perfect.
why don’t you argue my point..
You had no point — you were just blathering some bigoted nonsense which deserved nothing but derision in return.
RE: HR888
No kidding — Common Dreams should cover this frightening resolution. It attemps to revise history and officially call this a Christian Nation, all under the guise of a “Religion Appreciation Week.”
HR888 — JUST SAY NO!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.RES.888:
terryb –
Actually, StevieRay’s bigotry does make a good point, though not the one he intended. The French and secular humanists aren’t the only groups whom he is prejudiced against. Notice he also holds Catholics in disdain.
That’s the real reason our founders insisted on separation of Church and State. The main religous problem they were facing at the time was infighting among Christians. They knew if the different Christian denominations in each state were allowed to use government to fight their theological battles, this country would be torn to pieces in no time just like Europe had been, over and over and over.
And it still would be. I’m Christian, but do I want to live in a nation ruled by Dominionists? No, I do not. I want my freedom, just as our Constitution guarantees. It’s worked pretty well so far and I see no reason to change it.
I have no problem with faith. I totally understand it.
My problem lies with organized religion. If one truly believes in a god, i would think it would be a personal relationship, and therefore, there would be no need to organize with others, and create a doctrine. that is exclusive to others who do not adhere to it.
Tell me, what doctrine would your god affirm, above others.
“I believe that intercourse is God’s own poetry.” (Siouxrose)
One poem in an anthology.
terryb — Your personal opinions about spirituality are irrelevant. As are mine, as are the bigot SteveRay’s.
It is the freedom of religion granted to us by the Constitution that makes it so. Without individual freedom, we would have to fight it out, tooth and nail, to see whose spiritual beliefs are made the law of land. But since we have freedom, your personal beliefs are your own to follow, just as I am free to follow mine. There is no need to debate or fight about who is right.
The theocracts want to change that, and we really must not let them.
a few people want to pass some meaningless resolution
1) It is not a few people. It is our government.
2) It is not meaningless.
Thank you for your interest.
HR888 — JUST SAY NO!
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.RES.888:
I agree about our beliefs being irrelevant, and our freedom to follow them.
However, we HAVE been fighting it out, tooth and nail, throughout history. One doctrine against the other. It continues, to this day.
The dogmatic, extremists always persist, and consequently, blood continues to flow in the name of one god, against another. I would have no problem, if they would just live, and let live.
Therein lies the problem.
stevieray - Which Secular Humanists are you refering to? A few names please.
I would have no problem, if they would just live, and let live. Therein lies the problem.
The solution lies in our Constitution. Usually, the fundamentalists who are most interested in shifting our nation to a theocracy style themselves as patriots. I think we need to remind them again and again this is a free nation — and that’s just how our founders intended it to be, for good reason.
They try to pass resolutions like the HR888 that is so concerning, so they can be theocrats *and* patriots, but it doesn’t wash. If they really love the principles this nation was founded to cherish, they will support each person’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness– or they can just admit they are traitors who want to overthrow our Constitution. Few realize that is the ground they are treading when they start talking about a theocratic United States but it is, indeed, what they’re talking about.
KaneJeeves,
I’m pretty sure StevieRay means “secular humanist” to cover anyone he doesn’t already hate because they’re French and/or Catholic. ‘-)
Checked out HR888. If it’s meaningless, why bother in the first place? Also if it’s meaningless, all the more reason to reject it.
C’mon stevieray, your not stupid, and neither are we. You know exactly what their trying to do. It’s blatantly obvious. You know it, and so do we. Why can’t you be content, with just living with your faith, and let others follow their own paths. Believe what you like, as long as it is not detrimental to others. Whatever it takes to be a good person is fine with me. Thats the bottom line.
Also, i see your bigotry knows no bounds.
stevieray”i’m just saying that we used to say a prayer to jesus first thing in the morning when i went to public schools and it didn’t kill anyone.”
Tell it to whats left of the indiginous population.
Where are all the stupid people from?
And I hope thats not Stevie Ray Vaughan’s name your using then getting on here and making an ass of yourself.
Siouxrose requested my Bible Thumper again for public consumption. So here it is again:
BIBLE THUMPER: Take a 2X12 piece of hard wood and cut it into the shape of a triangle. Cut a rectangle out in the center of the triangle. Then connect a long narrow handle to the triangle, i.e. an ax handle etc. Then place a Bible in the rectangle and fasten securely. Use the Bible Thumper to thump christians who violate your personal space. It has the power to exorcise the christian mind. Notch the handle for each Bible Thumper thumped, or take a scalplock and attach it to the back of the triangle. Your prestige will rise the more you thump. Don’t leave home without it.
Thank you, Naomi, for giving voice to my own fears. I am an American Jewish Atheist who lived in Israel for a number of years and has citizenship there, too.
I am absolutely unable to recognize this country anymore.
Where has America gone?
Where is separation of church and state?
Why is virtually every single politician bringing religion into the campaigns?
I find it utterly terrifying to watch the changes going on before my eyes, to see my country turning into a theocratic fascist dictatorship. It makes me want to VOMIT.
Personally, I have no problem if someone wants to be religious. I truly couldn’t care less if someone prefers to live a life of fairy tales. That is his/her choice and has nothing to do with me. But I draw the line at the point where that person wants to deprive me of the same right, i.e. to decide how I want to live MY life. I neither need nor want THEIR approval and I certainly do NOT want someone telling me that I have to accept their version of religion.
And this is the danger here, especially with virtually all of the politicians disgustingly pandering to the crazy religious right.
What is it with these people anyway? Why do they CONSTANTLY want to foist their religion on the rest of us? I wonder how they would feel if American atheists decided to organize and try to convince the rest of the world to abandon their religion and think the way we do. I imagine they might find this pretty offensive and be incensed. Yet, the same people think NOTHING of trying to foist their nonsense on the rest of us!!!
If you haven’t yet read THE HANDMAID’S TALE, I’d highly recommend it.
Is Common Dreams going to allow trolls to throw around ethnic slurs? I’m kinda surprised.
terryb — HR888 has some sneaky phrases hidden in the “celebration of religion” smoke screen. Notice that it ends with forbidding religion to be removed from public places “for historical purposes.” That’s in direct contradiction to separation of Church and State. They want those Ten Commandments sitting in the middle of the courthouse and if the Constitution says they can’t do that, they’ll start messing with history so it suits their purposes.
Also notice that though it is called “Religion Appreciation Week” the only religion mentioned is Christianity, and trivia from history has been cherry picked to make it appear the founders were deliberately attempting to form “a Christian nation” — when we know they weren’t. I’ve never seen so many “whereas” clauses in a resolution and with such sly intent.
If this goes through, it’s one more crack in the dam, which is just what the theocrats want. They’ve been thwarted by facts once too often in debates, so now they’re trying to change the facts.
stevieray49: “i guess i’m of the annie coulter mindset …”
Good insight, since your ipse dixit postings could serve as examples for lessons in recognizing logical fallacies, just like Protestant ethic Ann’s work.
Opinionated: “They want those Ten Commandments sitting in the middle of the courthouse …”
Might not be such a bad idea, as they would then have a whole lot of ’splainin’ to do –> http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/node/4086/print
It would be interesting to know some more about all those other Gods mentioned in the First Commandment and elsewhere in the Bible?
Actually, quousque, it is irrelevant. What is important is that our Constitution guarantees us each the right to pursue our own spirituality as we see fit, and we should unite to ensure that stays the case.
“What is important is that our Constitution guarantees us each the right to pursue our own spirituality as we see fit”
Really? Then why were American Indians only given the right to practice their Traditional Spiritual Ways thirty years ago? And why is U.S. American Indian Law based upon the Doctrine of Christian Discovery and Dominion. Separation of Church and State, I doooont think sooooo.
stevieray49, your anti-semitism is revolting and not acceptable on this site. Why don’t you join freerepublic.com. I feel sure you’d be welcome there!
Doom and Gloom,
How appropriately named. Rather than mourn mistakes of the past, why not work to realize the ideals set forth in our Constitution as they should be. Or do you think separation of Church and State is a bad thing?
OPINIONATED — Although most would argue against it (for obvious reasons exhibited in DC today), I suspect that D n G and I share a minority “report” along the lines of the mandate for a true spiritually-based religion (e.g. w/o doctrines) as evidenced in the Iroquois Confederations that our own Constitution was derived from.
The major exception of the borrowing - was eliminating a spiritual center of profundity and accumulated wisdom, much including the female perspective - so carelessly (and tragically) missing from the King James Ed. (and most Western Religions). Our early culture was torn from a pathetically draconian and punitive mythos, which never well matured enough to enable the wisdom so prevalent in Native American traditions, hence we became masterful plagiarists.
Perhaps, American’s might become more appreciative of the origins of our “founding fathers” wisdom, coming into being w/o white wigs, through our other (the native) fathers who had a connection to nature that has yet to materialize for us moderns. Much of the worlds current idiotic theft of previous and future generations, for materialistic and expedient profit (greed), would never pass the council of gauging proposed changes reflected over the next 7 generations (as done by the Iroquois, prior to 1776).
Americans have now lost much of the intention of all of the founding fathers (and mothers), and in today’s turmoil, we have an excellent opportunity to re-incorporate an appropriate spiritual basis for secular governance. The all seeing eye, just doesn’t cut much any longer.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed »
“How appropriately named. Rather than mourn mistakes of the past, why not work to realize the ideals set forth in our Constitution as they should be. Or do you think separation of Church and State is a bad thing?”
Opinionated, the complexities of Traditional Native lifeways run deep. I understand the need for the light and dark to coexist in balance. Balance is what I seek to achieve. Currently there is an imbalance. The imbalance is what I seek to redress. My Traditional lifeways are threatened with extinguishment by Christians who believe that their God is the only God and therefore the only way to salvation. Where there was once over one hundred million native people on this continent, after the initial genocide just one percent remained. That genocide remains active in America today in what has come to be known as the “quiet genocide.” Currently I estimate there remain only about one quarter million Traditional American Indians in the U.S. Those Indians are continually threatened by both U.S. Government genocidal policies, and the Christian churches. American Indians are forcibly locked into legal subservience by what is known as the Doctrine of Christian Discovery and Dominion that is rooted in the Christian Bible. Therefore for American Indians there is no separation of church and state. The church and state have colluded to perpetuate the genocide of American Indians. Also, had you read the Constitution you would realize the American Indians are therein described as Savages. So for American Indians today balance is the goal but not the reality.
to nspire: Our Constitution owes nothing to the Iroquois Confederation. Read their documents and unrevised history yourself, and despite Thom Hartmann’s incessant radio rant, it’s a strain to find anything similar. Also, it is racism to pretend that North America’s indigenous people were much different in behavior to whites or blacks or browns or yellows from anywhere else on the planet, as human nature seems to be fairly consistent. Good ideas for social organization should definitely be championed, but it is wrong to ascribe them as inherent to any people, and if any actually do deserve credit for laying the foundation of our Noble Experiment, then they are certainly the Greeks.
to Opinionated: As an ACLU member, I’m well up on those laws, but think sometimes it works best to give Theofascists enough rope to tie thmeselves in knots.
“[…] it works best to give Theofascists enough rope to tie thmeselves in knots.”
quousque,
I dunno. Fascists given rope usually form a lynch mob.
to Opinionated: ‘True Believers’ of any ilk share one trait: What they believe to be true is the truth. Granted they will try to lynch you for exposing their inconsistencies, but when dealing with those who are immune to persuasion by reason, what other tack can one take? I say let’s put their hypocritical religiosity on display in the public square ……… and watch them relearn the hard way why church and state were separated.
You are more confident than I that they will not create the theocracy they desire and, once in place, a theocracy is one of the hardest forms of government to change once it’s in place. It is built from the ground up to be immutable. I think this nation is ripe for falling to it — gross class divisions, war, ecological trouble, faltering status on the world front. Fanaticism thrives on despair and hopelessness, and we seem to have that in abundance at the moment. It is allowing them to make progress toward their goal.
The news rushes to interview the fanatics, then touts their opinions as “Christian.” The politicians pander to them and among the candidates, we have a Southern Baptist minister who sympathizes with the Dominionists, if he isn’t one himself, and a zealous Mormon who describes the powers of the president as dictatorial.
I really think it’s most effective to remind them freedom is the cornerstone of our nation’s ideals, rather than attempting to refute their theology. Let them worship toasters, if they so desire. Don’t debate the wisdom of it, or the lack thereof, but insist that we all must be free to make our own choices just as our forefathers intended.
Fundamentalists are respectful of what our ancestors thought was good. I really think the argument most likely to be heard by them is that our ancestors wanted us to be free.
QUOUSQUE — The anger that exudes from your words, is a form of self-hatred, perhaps you’re a closeted racist me’ist?
Regardless of your pain, the wholesomeness and uplifting social structures of indigenous peoples have long been prized my any willing to risk immersion.
One favorite story illustrates the Honduran capacity to even gauge the extremity of decadence of American “civilization” (Once asked about it, Gandhi replied ‘I think that it is a good idea’). A fellow explorer and seeker of peace (and truth) did immerse himself for many months, and literally did live besides them sleeping together is the ashes of the night’s fire. He had never mentioned, nor attempted to communicate any of his prior life, but on the day that he decided that he must return - they all deeply cried for him. When he realized what was occurring, he startled into recognition of something beyond his understanding: Why where they crying for him?
Their answer is the profound magic and truth of native wisdom, for they had peered into his eyes, and knew full well what he was returning to.
They cried in shared compassion for the hell that he had decided that he must return to, knowing that that the devils there must be evil beyond their measure or comparison - but nontheless was written into his soul.
Your racism is showing rather blatantly, and then you choose to accuse me to the same, for acknowledging the stark chasm within American cultures. Perhaps we share the hate of ourselves, but for me, at least there is an abundant love of humankind.
The actions (and costs) of a culture are easily confused with the precepts (and values).
Perhaps some time in nature would open your view to the larger universe, undiscovered before you?
BYW, fundamentalism is to spiritualism as a rolling rock is to the space shuttle (in my opinion). Got Sisyphus?
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed »
nspire, good words.
“…too bad the indiginous persons couldn’t quite master the wheel or circumnavigational techniques or they could have gone to spain or france and wiped them out first.”
Ignorance of history to support vile opinions. Obviously it hasn’t read Jared Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel”.
They had the wheel but no animals to pull them. Have you ever pulled a wagon by yourself?
Beware — with end times comes false prophets and if you look about, they’re here, in full force.
What’s bad about religion is the same as what’s bad about politics: the belief that you belong to an exclusive club that knows what’s best for all the ignorant people who don’t belong to your club.
It’s no wonder the two go together so well.
to nspire: Racism is the prejudice of believing human characteristics are determined by race, both the good ones and bad. I wrote that most humans of any ilk are just about the same, while you apparently believe that “indigenous peoples” are somehow inherently superior. Which of us is the racist?
QUOUSQUE — Perhaps you think that you know me so much better than I know myself? I also would agree that “most humans of any ilk are just about the same”, but that is quite distinct from the values and benefits derived from various cultures, some rich while some are evil in their acts and thinking - not the intrinsic capacity for good or evil. I adhere to the idea that both cultural and individual achievements define the value of a person, not their race or skin color.
This little word you toss about so carelessly is of extreme importance to many if not all peoples of this globe. SO let’s get down to the issues, by 1st defining it (better):
rac·ism /reɪsɪzəm/[rey-siz-uhm]
The most divisive formation is item 3. (regarding hatred), which although I didn’t plumb the negative aspects (being focused on item 1.), it does appear that you’ve got carried away as if I were instigating hateful and disparaging comments, or precipitating reasons for one culture to rule over another.
On the contrary, I have no stake promulgating the nominal white biased pro-Western point of view, which most would recognize as the defacto definition of hateful causing emotional reaction to non-whites (to also deprive them of their rights). My beliefs are far less easy for you to sandwich into categories, as I do not attribute intrinsic cultural differences to skin color, but the actions and beliefs of those cultures - which coincidently is usually seen externally as skin color. The difference herein, is that a white child growing up in an indigenous tribal way of life doesn’t loose being white, but gains the cultural knowledge of another race - which is squarely in the domain of inalienable and sovereign rights.
When you ask if “Which of us is the racist?” I can best follow my feelings of having no hateful ulterior motives, which is contrasted by your divisive tone, so that tips the “hate/isolation/inferior” balance toward your actions (regardless of your skin color) - thus to me, you are hardly interested in discovery nor consolidation, hence please just leave us in peace, as there is apparently nothing positive forthcoming from you
nspire, I have to admit that I’ve encountered as much blatant bigotry among “indigenous people” as I have in any other group of people. Perhaps more, because many tribe members feel themselves to be at war and they have no problem spouting off about the inferiority of races and cultures other than their own.
Native Americans are no more perfect and noble, or flaweed and base, than any other people.
Nothing was said that was hateful — though some false assertions were challenged. I think it was quite rude of you to dare tell someone to “go away” because they politely said something you don’t want to hear.
“ALL religions, are an embarrassment to humanity.
They have been shit disturbers, ever since they were invented. Their “love”, consists of bigotry, racism, hate, and violence, against those who do not submit to their ‘one true path”.
A pox on all their houses.”
Really? ALL religions?
Yes, they have been shit disturbers. Shit disturbers like Moses, Jesus, Buddha, John Brown, Martin Luther King, the Mahatma Ghandi, Bishop Desmond Tutu, the Dalai Lama…
Also, the role of religion in the rise of fascism has been greatly misunderstood. The true roots of fascism have always been unfettered capitalism. Mussolini never saw himself as a religious leader, but as the head of a corporation. The Huckabees of this world are only stooges for the real enemies of democracy, which have always been (and always will be) interested in money, not eternal salvation.
That is, incidentally, why I believe that getting rid of religion will do much of anything. If religion were to somehow disappear, I sincerely doubt the result would be world peace. Instead, people (or at least the people in charge) would be more interested in getting what they want right now.
to nspire: It appears then that you favor the perpetuation of dividing humanity into tribalistic identity groupings? That is what our world has long been trying to overcome in order to progress towards a better common future. Think through the ramifications of that exclusionary deadend before promoting it to those of us favoring inclusion as a better path.
Quousque, your words, “It appears then that you favor the perpetuation of dividing humanity into tribalistic identity groupings,” in describing nspires words misses what I perceive to be her meanings.
Steven Newcomb, an American Indian scholar, teacher, and attorney wrote, ” As original free and and independent sovereigns pre-existing the Constitution, Indian Nations have the inherent right to exist free and unconstrained by the non-constitutional assertion of plenary power made by the United States on the basis of the Doctrine of Christian Discovery and Dominion.”
The better common future that you refer to suggests that Indian Nations are wrong to reject forced acculturation into the American culture, and in their resistence, they are “dividing humanity into tribalistic identity groupings.”
This is pure hubris!
The “better common future” that you write about must be based upon mutual respect and not American empire.
Indigenous Peoples and Nations across the globe are now struggling to overthrow the imperialistic chains of western nations. The passing of The Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples, by the United Nations in 2007 speaks to the urgency of that process.
The Indigenous world view of Spirit is much more INCLUSIVE than the western world view of Science. Spirit engenders the interconnectedness of all things. Science is exclusionary.
Real inclusion requires mutual respect and mutual agreement on some level, not forced inclusion based upon the western world view of dominion and exploitation.
In my view there is no stronger racist viewpoint than that which you have attempted to put forward. I am not trying to demean you personally by my words, but I do strongly condemn your words as uninformed and racist.
I am against all forms of organized religion. However, i really respect the indigenous concept of spirituality. They present a beautiful concept of acceptance, respect, and harmony.
My thanks to them, for what they have taught me.
to Doom n Gloom: I suggest that you read the Marshall decisions which underpin your assertions regarding what are deemed to be tribes by the United States. They reasonably might apply to the Cherokee, but subsequent application to tribes contrived for our convienience is a stretch we now must treat. Also read the aside by Madison of the illogic to tribal sovereignty under our constitution in he Federalist Papers.
As to the accusation of my having a racist viewpoint, please quote something I wrote which reinforces that charge. You seem to have a belief that there is some common “Indigenous world view of spirit” lacking in others, which is rather offensively racist of you to proclaim.
Someday I would like to challenge Thom Hartmann to square the belief that exclusive tribalism is admirable with his defense of our inclusive constitutionalism ……… perhaps you can?
QUOUSQUE — Asked and answered:“our world has long been trying to overcome in order to progress towards a better common future.”
You have clarity from D n G“The “better common future” that you write about must be based upon mutual respect and not American empire.”
The absolute worse type of racist, is one who propagates nice sound phrases (like directly above at top of this response), with the hidden intent of never reconciling any of the other into the “better”.
Please take your quaint tag-team and just disappear from our space, as you have nothing to add of any value (even sand does have some value, but I’ve already got a beach in my life).
Who the hell is the nspire to tell people to go away? My goodness, for someone with such a superior philosophy, you sure are rude.
Yep, I’m a racist against collections of troll beings.
Don’t have no use for them, my bridges are fine w/o your help
If you’re interested (and not trolls) in becoming part of the community,
there’s always a welcome mat out, and we’re willing to listen.
“As to the accusation of my having a racist viewpoint, please quote something I wrote which reinforces that charge.”
I do disagree with your words and I do consider them racist. My explanation in my previous post is more than adequate. If you do not understand it then I must fault your own knowledge of Indigenous cultural lifeways. From my perspective it’s possible that you do not understand because you choose not to understand. If this is not the case then please take some time to read this soon to be published book, Pagans in the Promised Land: Decoding the Doctrine of Christian Discovery by Steven T. Newcomb. Marshall is covered quite well in his book.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Nspire, I take it you believe yourself to be King of Common Dreams. Do the editors know you personally judge whether a person’s opinions are worthy of being posted here, based on whether you agree with them or not?
As for the two of you who think Native Americans and by extension, yourselves, are inherently superior to all other races — no wonder you don’t want to hear facts that might upset your bigotry. Fortunately, you are not allowed to censor others and thank God for that because you clearly want to silence anyone who dares disagree with you, no matter how politely.
Now, away with you. I fear Common Dreams attracts many readers who are unaware they are inferior to you because of their skin color. How upsetting for you. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to lower yourself to speak to us. We might, gasp, disagree with you and present facts to support arguments, and we can’t have that, can we? Best you find somewhere to post where you’ll never hear a word of dissent, eh?
“As for the two of you who think Native Americans and by extension, yourselves, are inherently superior to all other races”
Purposeful lies and twisted thinking are the bread and butter of racists. Nowhere in my posts or nspire’s posts has that ugly sentiment been written. It is in your imagination only.
American Indian culture and the cultures of other Indigenous Nations have a common value system. Spirit, oneness, community, and respect for life. Those are clearly inclusive values.
Wherever I post I have found organized racist commentary. It is nothing new and I have learned not only to endure it but to embrace it. Light and dark, good and evil must coexist in balance. I understand you.
Oh puleeze. nspire actually had the nerve to twice order another member to go away because an opinion was expressed that he or she disagreed with. How prejudiced is that?
I’d be glad to swallow your unrealistic picture of Native American tribes as “respectful of life” if I didn’t know their history. They kidnapped each other, warred with each other, and stole each other’s ponies, as is recorded in their own folk tales and oral history. They took slaves, had feuds, and in all ways behaved as though they were and are… human beings. Good lord, I’ve read Pawnee folk tales about killing those who were out-tribe that would curl a person’s hair, the violence is so praised and so casual, and they weren’t even the most war-prone of the tribes.
As long as anyone pointing out that Native Americans are not saints on Earth any more than the next group of people is “racist” to you, yeah, I’m pretty sure you’re going to find honest discussion of the matter upsetting — but not because the people pointing out the facts are bigots. You just don’t want to hear facts that don’t fit with your preconceived ideas of inherent superiority. Which is really just as racist as white people immigrating and claiming the land because of a “manifest destiny” given to their race.
We have no destiny that is determined by our race. Get over it.
Opinionated — You like to jump up and down and make acquisitions, and then jump to conclusions, and assert your anti-racist beliefs.
Well, profound silence , we’ve not read a shred of anything positive as of yet (please do correct me if I missed something).
You absurdly state that “We have no destiny that is determined by our race,” while what was being discussed (both myself and D n G) were the human choices and belief systems that support peoples development of a healthy destiny.
Not anywhere is there anything close to such dribble, other than in your own words, so wise up and accept what you are creating - and be RESPONSIBLE (having the ability to respond).
The only reason I (twice) mentioned a recommendation for your leave taking, was the total irresponsible lack of response to any logical argument, which I made that were in response to your statements.
I am no censor, nor king - but do feel that riffraff trouble makers should be helped out, so I pointed you to the door.
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed »
Dear nspire,
Is that the royal “we” that you use when you refer to yourself? How charming. You order people about, trying to shut down civil discussion if you don’t like another’s viewpoint, and that’s just plain rude. You have absolutely no place whatsoever showing anyone the door because it’s not your door. I don’t believe you’re the host. I’ve been a member here for quite some while and I’ll continue that, thank you.
(Oh, and it was not me you asked to leave twice, btw. Keep track of who you’re insulting. I was horrified to see such nastiness to another, so I spoke up.)
And speaking freely of trolls, this thread was about freedom of religion and separation of church and state. What are you doing dragging the discussion off-topic with personal rants because you are affronted that not everyone agrees with you? Your behavior demonstrates you don’t understand what Namaste means, and your desire to censor those with whom you don’t agree is odious.
“I’d be glad to swallow your unrealistic picture of Native American tribes as “respectful of life” if I didn’t know their history. They kidnapped each other, warred with each other, and stole each other’s ponies, as is recorded in their own folk tales and oral history. They took slaves, had feuds, and in all ways behaved as though they were and are… human beings.”
Opinionated, you know little about American Indians. Theft of ponies was most often an exercise in warrior skills. Theft of a pony from another tribes camp was seen a a skillful move and often rewarded. Other things were done also. Sometimes something was stolen from another camp or lodge. Tribes saw this as an exercise in skill and bravery and not usually lethal. It was an expected and accepted part of life and warrior training.
Yes warriors did engage in skirmishes, often for hunting land. These generally were not largely fatal. In larger wars for hunting grounds tribes fought for land and casualties would be larger. The result would be that one tribe would be driven off the land. The classic example are the Sioux and the Crow.
The difference between Indians and the Euro invaders was that Indians did not engage in genocide as Whites did. Whites engaged in organized and systematic efforts to exterminate all of the Indians.
The idea in the oneness and respect for life are consistent. No it was not a perfect system but compared with genocide it was night and day. Indian Nations successfully coexisted on this continent for over 12,000 years and were thriving when Colombus arrived. After just 230 years the United States is already in danger of economic collapse and still engages in a quiet genocide.
In fairness I do address your questions but your have yet to address mine in anything other than projections of your wrongful and incomplete understandings. This is common behavior and I’m used to it.
In case you missed it earlier, there is no separation of Church and State for American Indians because U.S. Indian Law is based upon the Doctrine of Christian Discovery and Dominion and it is rooted in the christian bible. Again you may want to purchase the book Pagans in the Promised Land by Steven Newcomb. In it you will find a full explanation.
OPINIONATED — If I was rude, to either yourself or Q, I am sorry, and had no intention other than to just peacefully end the discussion.
At the time, it did appear (to me) as if you and Q were coordinating a tag-team attack, but I see now that was coincidental.
I’ve already acknowledged no royal ties, nor did I ever ORDER anyone, as a polite request is just that.
I don’t see anything above where I attempted to shut down discussion, unless that means being no longer interested (which is correct). ‘Pointing to the door’ was perhaps an escalation on my part, but I doubt most would compare that with being accused of being a racist (by Q), which I did address.
You note that “this thread was about freedom of religion and separation of church and state,” which leaves out the RISE to FEAR aspect in the title. Both D n G and I were attempting to show that peoples chosen INTENTION has more to drive destiny, than your baiting of how we thought race superiority determine destiny (we didn’t and don’t).
You claim D n G and I were insulting, whereas many might put that shoe upon your and Q’s feet, especially which reasoned responses are met with rants
and exaggeration (feigned insult & horror) and dismissive “Now, away with you … Get over it.”
I am somewhat pleased to have had a chance to discover why you choose OPINIONATED as your name herein, no one is going to argue the appropriateness of it with you.
Perhaps I should have just chosen to not respond to your onslaughts, but then I hardly feel free to acquiesce and thereby suffer the pretender_in_chief either.
http://www.trafford.com/07-2440
Dear Sirs and Mesdames,
This subject, in my mind, is the most immediate most urgent and serious matter confronting the Human Race. Despite the fact that many great minds, philosophers, politicians, academics and economists, have all created eminent careers based on their knowledge and understanding of how free enterprise, national economies and the human race interact, they have all failed to admit the obvious. It is glaringly obvious that we have large swathes of the human race that do not have access to money; it is that simple.
Therefore we need a system of economy that literally accommodates the needs and aspirations of every human being. A system that will not rely on taxing others’ in order to provide all the multifarious forms of infrastructures, as well as our human and social obligations. A system of taxation in which the haves are continually being pressured to claw back those taxes from the have-nots. We must face the fact, once and for all; this system can never provide all human needs and infrastructures.
We have allowed right-wing ideology to dictate the terms and even if or when large swathes of populations may be fed and housed or have health needs addressed. We tolerate the fact that we have millions of working poor who will never earn enough to meet all of life’s basic costs. Many of these are struggling to raise families the bedrock of our future. Those who work lead the most precarious of lives.
Precarious, because their work and income has become the plaything of corporate power, which moves production to lower waged economies. This makes the executives and the shareholders richer but at the cost of the misery they leave behind. Wages go down, but not prices, or costs of living, and the formerly free “social wage entitlements” are removed.
This is the “rationalized” world directed by Corporate Power and implemented by our Governments, the world of “user pays”.
Take it or suffer the consequences. The Government calls this “work choices”. Hear the Corporate applause? The consequences are total destitution for some; they could buy none of life’s essential services.
Complete and total destitution for many unless they work, no shelter, no food, no health care, and no education, none of life’s necessities.
So we need a system, which provides equal opportunity and care for all, overlaid with free enterprise. At the same time we can put in place a fair and equitable industrial relations system that eliminates employer employee antagonisms.
Our democracy is in serious trouble. Rich people and corporations channel funds into political parties in order to achieve their own commercial or ideological ends cleverly bypassing democratic inputs. It is happening in all democracies but that does not make it “worlds best practice” or “right”. We can correct that quite easily. We make so-called free trade agreements under which corporations are exempted from government regulation that control workers rights, pay and working conditions. Is this democracy, is this really necessary, should corporations have such unbridled power, where will it end?
Introduction of The Universal Economy will immediately and substantially impact and improve such questions as Poverty, provision of universal education, health care, pensions, unemployment, housing and all public infrastructure (roads bridges schools hospitals etc). None of this will require the imposition of taxation.
The concept of The Universal Economy will be easy to introduce, because it benefits everyone, everyone will want it to work. It will be hardest to implement in third world nations, not impossible, just slower to implement. It will kick start economies wherever it is introduced.
This is a concept for the twenty-first century. Put to one side traditional thought processes and embedded conventions see only the greater-good and benefit of mankind then you will support this enterprise with the open heart and mind it deserves. Adopt this concept for the good of humanity.
Give your support, not money.
Yours Faithfully, THOMAS W ADAMS.