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Never Again
The reason we must keep the torture issue alive is not to exact a small measure of comeuppance from the Bush administration zealots who bent the law till it screamed, but to alter the course of history.
Thus the filing of disciplinary complaints a few days ago against 12 Bush administration lawyers, who crafted the quasi-legal justifications that made waterboarding a household word, has significance well beyond the case for their disbarment. This action, taken by a coalition of citizen organizations — from the ACLU and Vets for Peace to the Libertarian Party of West Virginia, 200 groups in total, claiming a membership of more than a million people — represents, as I see it, American citizens’ furthest reach of patriotic sanity.
The Bush sins are unoriginal. We’ve always done torture. We’ve always been at war with a dehumanized (and usually dark-skinned) other, whom we have simultaneously attempted to kill and, in our armed righteousness, “save.”
The cocky Bush boys were different only in their open pursuit of this agenda. They had no need for nuanced, bipartisan hypocrisy and flaunted the shadow ops of empire as perfectly legitimate tools of government. With the declaration of an endless war on terror and much of the media on their side, they almost succeeded in legitimizing the premise that the commander-in-chief and his designated agents are beyond all law, and ushering in a strange new American oligarchy.
This effort collapsed of its own hubris, as we all know, and now Hope and Change, the Bobbsey Twins of the Democratic Party, skip merrily through the wreckage, disavowing the obvious cruelties of the last eight years and urging us to “move forward” — while the extra-legal pursuit of America’s strategic interests, as defined by the defense establishment, retreats quietly to the background.
Uh, excuse us, Mr. President. The mandate you’ve been given is a little bigger than that, to the regret (I fear) of the Washington establishment. We want to purge the Bush era from the national soul. We want the words “never again” to hum with meaning. We want a new relationship with the world and we want our “strategic interests” to line up with our ideals, not merely because it’s right but because it’s the only way we’ll ever be secure. And for this to happen, we have to look squarely at the truth of who we are and who we have always been.
The failure of the Bush administration to remake America — and the fact that the crimes of its attempt to do so are indelibly part of the public record — present us with the best opportunity we’ve ever had to confront our national flaws, at least those that flow from the bete noir known as American exceptionalism, and begin making substantive changes. All that’s lacking right now is the will. Believe me, it won’t come from the top.
“There’s a vise grip on D.C.,” said Kevin Zeese, executive director of Voters for Peace and a leader in the effort to make Bush officials accountable for trying to circumvent both the U.S. Constitution and international law in order to legitimize torture. The Justice Department has sat on it for five years; Congress is paralyzed by its own complicity; and President Obama lacks the leverage to buck the defense establishment even if he has the inclination (and it’s not clear he does).
We won’t take the country back all at once, but we have to start somewhere. And it begins with accountability. This is why I applaud the coalition’s filing of complaints with state bar licensing boards against these dirty dozen Bush administration attorneys: John Yoo, Jay Bybee, Stephen Bradbury, Alberto Gonzales, John Ashcroft, Michael Chertoff, Alice Fisher, William Haynes II, Douglas Feith, Michael Mukasey, Timothy Flanigan and David Addington. In addition, the coalition is calling for impeachment proceedings against Bybee, now a sitting federal judge.
I don’t know how much of the truth will ever come out, in a way that cannot be ignored (think Germany, think South Africa), but my hope is that we begin a process that gets at all of it, that pries open every secret grave: the CIA torture research of the 1950s; the Phoenix Program of the Vietnam era; the overthrow of the governments of Iran, Guatemala and Chile; the torture training at the School of the Americas; the Reagan era complicity with the thug regimes of Central America; and so much more.
These are all products of American exceptionalism, the belief that our brutality is always benign. Where once we killed to spread the word of God, we now kill and torture in the name of democracy — and in the Bush era, we did both, a fact underscored by the recent revelation that Donald Rumsfeld’s special intelligence memos to Bush had inspirational photos (an American tank at sunset, e.g.) and Bible verses on the cover: “Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground . . .”
Perhaps the antidote to this self-righteous lunacy is to be found at the coalition Web site: disbartorturelawyers.com. It will happen again if we don’t stand up to it now.
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Show AllThis is fine and I am all for it, but the TRUTH OF 9/11 and a re-investigation is more than necessary...it must be mandatory, as 9/11 was the greatest deception ever perpetrated on this country...and the world.
Re-open a new investigation of 9/11 and the pieces will all fall in place. The truth will set us all free.
If the Bushies were involved in 9/11 (seems like a good bet) the conection will be hard to find and prove. The Bushes are too deep in covert ops to leave any connection hanging out on that one.
Torture on the other hand is impossible to hide. There are so many victims, perpitrators and strands leading back to the White House. And the law is all too clear.
The success of the Bush regime at dodging being nailed for their crimes always seemed to me, due to the overwhelming volume of horrors they commited. There were so many things that no one thing stood out for the public or the press to focus on. It's like when you look into the garage to start cleaning. The most impossible thing to do is decide where to start so you just putter around the mess.
My point here is that torture is the mess in front of us, it looks provable and it is enough to send the offenders away for life. That will do quite nicely thank you. Once we get that mess boxed up then we can see which other of the ten thousand things need cleaning up.
I'm certainly not the first to point out that Al Capone spent his last days in a federal prison for tax evassion. He was too slick to get caught for the mountain of crimes he obviously commited but tax evassion was enough.
Fpie, I think you got it right. I was impressed by Koehler's article until it strayed into a generalized attack ("[M]y hope is that we begin a process that gets at all of it, that pries open every secret grave: the CIA torture research of the 1950s; the Phoenix Program of the Vietnam era; the overthrow of the governments of Iran, Guatemala and Chile; the torture training at the School of the Americas; the Reagan era complicity with the thug regimes of Central America; and so much more.") To make that broad agenda the real purpose of going after the lawyers would impede the success of efforts to win disbarments (or other disciplinary steps) and impeachment of Bybee. The laws forbidding torture of prisoners are clear enough. To allow well-meaning historical concerns to distract from enforcement of those laws would be unfortunate. [This comment was slightly revised]
Sioux Rose
FPIE: Wise posting, and the garage metaphor is a good one.
re: Al Qapone -
another miscarriage of justice, considering that the income tax ammendment was never ratified.
Don't get too caught up in the laws; they are only "guidelines" for the ruling elite to use against the peons.
Sioux Rose
RICH M: As always you possess the capacity to embrace the big picture and distill its minutest indications for the rest of us. I do believe 911 was an inside job, but you make a solid case for why playing sleuth on this one will not ultimately change the many other illegalities being passed off as not only legal, but "just business" in our unbelievably corrupted land of the serf-free.
I believe you are saying that 9/11 was just another symptom of the disease, not its cause.
If that is the case, I agree.
I would still like to see Cheney doing hard time for it.
Addressing your points:
"And, by the way, there will NEVER be any decisive proof remoting implicating Cheney or anyone else, regardless of whether the US govt really made 9-11 happen."
I don't know how you can know this. What a properly empowered investigation could find is, obviously, yet to be found.
"What would happen that's different from what is actually happening? The truth is, not too much."
Given that there has never, ever, in American history been a crime of such magnitude perpetrated by the US Government against its own people, concluding that it would be treated as any other crime seems presumptuous at best.
If it were conclusively shown that Dick Cheney and his cohorts consciously planned 9/11 or at least ensured that it wasn't prevented, we would have a crime absolutely unprecedented in American history. The statement, "The Vice President and a few close aids conspired to murder 3,000 Americans, on American soil, in order to further their political agenda", would be true -- unimaginable! -- and that fact, that truth would be stunning, light-years beyond anything we've see thus far, including torture, Iraq, and the assault on the constitution. And just as 9/11 itself was the "catastrophic and catalyzing event" that the neocons knew they had to have in order to implement their radical agenda, so too would this revelation be the most powerful catalyst for political change this country has ever seen.
Because frankly, if such a revelation DIDN'T compel true, fundamental changes in our government and our society, more details about the military-industrial complex and its machinations -- details that have already, and for decades, failed to catalyze the American public -- don't stand a chance. 9/11 is our last, best hope for derailing this:
The Disease of Permanent War
http://tinyurl.com/o7jgpd
No, nothing is on the level of 3,000 private American citizens being murdered by their government. JFK comes close, in terms of emotional impact, but he was assassinated, and "that happens" to political leaders. He wasn't the first American president to suffer that fate. As for the Gulf of Tonkin -- not even close. Yes, it has in common with 9/11 the fact that both led to war, but, again, it's is nothing like the deaths of 3,000 private american citizens. And just because we went to WWI based on lies, that, too, is very different than the murder of 3,000 private, non-military American citizens by their own government. My Lai? Are you kidding? Americans are going to rend their garments over the slaughter of Asian peasants? No, unfortunately, they're not.
But let's say you're right: "Energy would be better spent if focused on the crimes that are already known about with 100% certainty, like torture and attacking Iraq for nonexistent WMD." That's all old news -- discussed ad infinitum in the mainstream and alternative press. And where's it gotten us? Oh, that's right, it's gotten us Obama, who's upping the ante in Afghanistan, still rattles our saber over Iran, and looks like he might drag us into Pakistan. Trillions to bankers, token sums to get us off oil. Change. Yeah.
The idea of 9/11 being a crime perpetrated by our own government, on the other hand, has been relegated to the lunatic fringe, and there has been no reasonable and open discussion of it in the mainstream or "respectable" alternative media. Not because it isn't reasonable, but because it's way too ugly to contemplate. And that's what gives it its power, and its potential to shake things up, really shake things up.
And again, if not 9/11, what? Everything else has been absorbed into the inertia of, "yeah, well, opinions differ, and partisanship is killing our country, so let's not get too worked up over anything. Obama will make things right, in a non-confrontational, way. Yeah." Yeah, the military-industrial-complex is quaking in its boots.
In the first place, the 9/11 truth movement is incoherent and absurd. If someone plants a bomb in a building, they don't step inside the building, or fly into the building, before detonating the bomb. Not worth my wasting my time on.
There is one interesting point I chanced on, the designers of the WTC building were interviewed about the innovative structure they employed in the buildings, totally unique, not tried before and won't be tried again, with all the support beams located in a relatively small column in the center of the building. That is why they collapsed.
But another way to look at is that it should have happened. That is, 100 years of imperialism, the imposition of compliant oligarchies, the exploitation of oil, the carnage of Gulf War 1, the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, ..... all of these should have some consequence.
If the Arabs didn't do 9/11, shame on them. As it was, it is payback on the scale of 1 to 1000, or 1 to 1000000.
Another aspect of the 9/11 truth movement is to deny the history of the rapacious present of the west in the middle east for the last 100 years. If Dick Cheney planned it, then the history of the US involvement in the region is irrelevant. Thus, there is enough reason for me to believe that the primary purpose of the 9/11 truthers is to divert attention from the middle east situation and to discredit opposition to our governments ME policies. Either that or they're just fools. Probably half and half.
This is my first, and I hope last, post on this idiotic subject.
....or idiotic post on the abject, as it were? :)
Well said
narcissus May 22nd, 2009 1:43 pm..............Please do some research...start here.....
http://www.ae911truth.org/
A response within the perenthesis from my friend, Dr. Tom Tvedten who established the 911dvdproject.com................PART ONE
RichM May 22nd, 2009 11:19 am
There is far too much hysterical noise about 9/11 (( I hear no "noise" about 9/11 in the MSM or in the casual conversations of the people who live and work around me. If the subject is broached, I am the one bringing it up.) It's an important issue, but not to the exclusion of everything else. ((Who is excluding all else?)) It's not the Rosetta Stone of understanding or curing America's illness. (It is the best tool we have for exposing the nefarious nature of the NWO.)) Even if it turned out that 9/11 was NOT actively sponsored by any group in the US govt, it wouldn't change a thing. ((But, it probably was sponsered by the gov.)) The US govt would still be a deeply criminal organization, & a menace to its own people, & to the rest of humanity. (Agreed.)
The constant yapping about 9/11 is foolish & excessive. ((There is far too little discussion of the issues raised by 9/11. If you don't happen to read a paper like The Rock Creek Free Press or listen to RBN, you won't hear 9/11 Truth mentioned. The media blackout of the subject of 9/11 Truth has been broad based and very effective. I am sure that far less than 1/2 of the American people have even heard of "Bldg. 7.)) It's bereft of all sense of proportionality. Assume for the sake of argument that a serious independent investigation proved that 9/11 actually happened more or less as claimed by the official story. Where would that leave us? ((If this were the case, all of mankind would know for sure of the evil intent of the American and other Western governments. The American people don't want to know the truth about their government and 9/11, but if they did they would work vigorously together to claim or re-claim this nation.)) We would still have the US spending more money on the military than the rest of the world combined. We would still have vast wealth & income inequality at home, with no accountability for Wall Street's gangsterism. We would still have no accountability for Bush administration criminals. We would still be a nation whose military practises torture, yet whose government pretends otherwise. We would still have a wrecked economy with soaring unemployment, & inadequate systems for health care & dignified retirement. We would still have a media system that amounts to the American version of Pravda, or worse. We would still be a nation that invaded Iraq claiming it was for "WMD," but then maintained a murderous occupation, even after it was clear there were no WMD. ((Because of all of these things, the American people are becoming more open to the Truth about such historical events as 9/11. I know of nobody who has seen 9/11 for what it almost certainly was, a false flag operation of the highest magnitude, who has ever returned to a belief in "the official story.))
Now assume for a moment that a serious 9-11 investigation showed that in fact, Cheney ordered the 9-11 attacks to take place, & saw to it that US defenses stood down that day. Assume even that part of Cheney's plan was a controlled demolition of the WTC. What would happen that's different from what is actually happening?
The truth is, not too much. Cheney would go to jail, and NONE of the other things I mentioned above would be affected. There would still be a 2-party duopoly controlled by Wall St & the MIC. The US would still be a menace to the rest of the world. The character of US society would not change. The population would not "rise up" and demand change, because they don't really know what kind of change they want, & lack the political consciousness to solve this question. ((The assumption that Cheny did it himself without massive help in the deed and the cover-up is an obvious false assumption. The nature of the rot in our system goes much farther and wider than D.C. Almost certainly other countries and entities, both civilian and military, had to be involved. The answwer to "qui bono?" can be found all over the map. 9/11 Truth still has the potential to be the catalyst that foments real and positive change in our society. We ahve come a long way and are not stopping now.))
PART TWO.................And, by the way, there will NEVER be any decisive proof remoting implicating Cheney or anyone else, regardless of whether the US govt really made 9-11 happen. Basing your entire worldview on this one chimera -- instead of organizing around the things that are already known with 100% certainty to be true, such as unjust US wars & torture & the system of legalized bribery known as the 2-party system, & the degeneracy of the MSM -- this is simply a recipe for permanent angry paralysis. (We in the 9/11 Truth movement are not "one trick ponies", as you imply.) 9/11 Truth is just one thread, a very important one, in the fabric of our activism. It gives us a clear and well documented and researched example to use to show others the extent to which our nation has been corrupted and been hi-jacked by a den of thieves intent on destroying our soverignity. On 9/11 our rulers over-played their hand and we caught them. It remains our job, our duty, to expose them for what they are to the world and we will continue to do our duty!)
"On 9/11 our rulers over-played their hand"
they are not my rulers, nor yours if you choose.
I gotta say I agree with both ANGRYOLDMAN and RICHM. The official story of 9/11 NEEDS to be shown as the ridiculous farce that it is - it has more holes than all the swiss cheese in the world. When more and more people start understanding this and questioning things further, REAL change will happen faster. I do believe 9/11 Truth plays a HUGE role in waking people up.
That being said . . . RICHM is also correct in that not much would change if a serious investigation were to occur. I made this point in a review I wrote on amazon.com a few years ago for David Ray Griffin's first book, "The New Pearl Harbor". First of all, there is no way an investigation could please everyone, and each side would cry foul if their desired results didn't happen. Second of all, The System would still be in place no matter the outcome of the investigation. And we need to change The System.
This is why I believe the smartest course of action is to keep "pounding the pavement" as it were. Don't focus your energies on getting a new investigation started; focus your energies on educating as many people as you know. Keep reading books on the subject (like David Ray Griffin's first three, which I find to be the best), keep sending people to websites, and keep putting this information out there to people you know and questioning everything about it. We all KNOW The System isn't going to change itself, and the Military-Industrial Complex is utterly out of control. We need to wake more and more people up and reach that point of "critical mass" where the change can come from the bottom up.
As a matter of fact, I just got into a heated argument with my sister about this very subject the other night on the phone. She actually called my ideas "dangerous". I felt honored.
And NARCISSUS . . . turn off your TV and do some research.
Blessings,
John
In fact, as I wrote in my response to another poster, 9/11 is the only chance there is. We can say, "never again" till doomsday, but the crimes of the military-industrial-complex haven't catalyzed America to say "enough is enough", not in the 50's, not in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, or now. But unlike 9/11, none of those crimes involved the conscious conspiracy by US government officials to murder thousands of Americans civilians. Such a revelation might just catalyze public opinion. And if that doesn't, then killing/torturing/raping "terrorists" (because, let's face it, that's what we've bought, that everyone in Afghanistan and the rest of the Muslim world is either a terrorist or a "soon-to-be" terrorist) sure as hell won't do it.
angryoldman, if it is true that 9/11 happened as the conspiracy theory's put forth, then those are not truths that the majority of our population could handle. Most humans in our society have an ill formed and frail emotional/psychological herd type mentality. It would most likely cause nothing but chaos and social collapse and you and I might be the first to go down in the frenzy of crazed humanity untethered to sanity. That kind of consequence would cause suffering on an unimaginable scale, and lets not fall into an eye for an eye will make the world finally see mentality to justify such ends. So, it is probably for the best, though not necessarily, that this info be kept under cover. If such truths must have light shed upon them and be received constructively by society we must do the work to prepare and educate that same society first. This lack of ground work to evolve humanity is a conspiracy that is as yet undiscovered. The conspiracy to keep the masses sick and dumb, how it works and why it is evil must be revealed and reversed first....I think the rest will follow. We can start here on this forum where seeing eye to eye and working together is the first step we could take.
Leea May 22nd, 2009 1:18 pm......May I say that SOME 9/11 truthers have put forth theories and some, as myself, have have put forth some ideas that go to possibility and some motives that are very well documented. BUT, most, if not ALL truthers simply call for a new investigation. At the head of this is the NYC Ballot Initiative. Google it if it is of interest. I understand the herd/sheeple/sleeple mentality. In light of the truth of what a new investigation may reveal, I believe we may be amazed at the capacity of the average American to absorb and react intelligently to such a revelation.
I understand the desire to work with and help humanity to evolve to a point at which it may be able to "handle the truth". I also think the best way to get there is to seek and reveal the truth and trust your fellow being. Personally, I do not wish to be classified as a gatekepper...only a truth seeker.
I also understand the desire/need to see eye to eye and work together on this forum.
The problem is, that most times we are just preaching to the choir. My task and the task of the vast majority in the 9/11 truth movement is to open the consciousness of the citizens "outside the choir" with as clear as possible information regarding what actually occured on that fateful day beyond the ILLUSION that was created through the complicity of the MSM.
And with that information, create an undeniable collection of facts as a basis for a new investigation.
asking brobama to investigate and prosecute his true soul brothers and fellow nwo shills is like asking the nazis to run the nuremberg trials
You should consider remembering that the Nuremberg Trials were run by the folks who dropped two nuc lear bombs on Japan--and went scot free because they "won".
Ray Berthiaume
I have been perplexed at the thought of how many people would have to be involved with keeping secrets for there to have been a 9/11 conspiracy. Yet I realize the thousands of soldiers who have kept secrets about U.S. behavior in the previous wars. Some wives have never heard their husbands speak of what they experienced in warfare. And of course politicians keep many secrets that they die with.
This is precisely why we have investigations. People DON'T just come forward; very often, in fact, they have to be threatened with things like perjury charges if not complicity in the crime being investigate in order for them to testify.
Let's look at the assumptions underlying "how many people would have to be involved with keeping secrets for there to have been a 9/11 conspiracy".
There are 2 classes of people with evidence that would lead to the conclusion that 9/11 was (at least to some degree) a government conspiracy:
Class 1: a single person with sufficient evidence to conclusively prove that 9/11 was a government conspiracy.
==> What evidence would that be? What evidence could get the whole world of mainstream media and government -- who perfectly eschew any claim that 9/11 was such a conspiracy -- to stop and do a complete 180, to "reopen the case" of 9/11? It would have to be absolutely comprehensive and absolutely unimpeachable. Therefore the purveyor of such evidence would have to be one of the few people, the "true conspirators", if you will, who knew everything about the plan AND had enough documentation to support their claims. But then why would one of the people who WANTED to perpetrate this crime come forward? By definition, they were extremists and murderers, and had probably been shaped by their twisted beliefs many years before 9/11.
Class 2: someone who has a piece of the puzzle, but lacking other pieces, can only state that "something wasn't right". In order for that person to contribute to a proof that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, other pieces of the puzzle would also have to be brought forth, from other people who also lacked comprehensive proof. This assumes:
a) bringing such evidence forward would be a welcomed act by those in power
b) the media would have an open mind about such evidence
c) other "puzzle-piece holders" would be inspired to do the same, such that
d) so many pieces of the puzzle would come out that the picture would be clear.
==> the obvious flaws with this are
a) let's say someone has such a piece. Perhaps it is an order from a superior that does not conform to the protocols of the agency where the potential whistleblower works. The potential whistleblower now has to ask him/herself: do I really want to step forward and get my superior in trouble, when all I have is this little piece? Because by itself, it's just a small thing; perhaps there are no other pieces; and even if there are, if I'm feeling hesitation about it, won't others, as well? And will ALL of them just say, "career/reputation/social standing be damned, I'm going to come forward with my little piece, because it's worth it, no matter how small the odds are of it doing any good.
b) the media loathes so-called "conspiracy theories"
c) (see flaw a) )
d) (see flaw a) )
For specific examples of this, please research Sibel Edmonds and Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer. Reasonably complete documentation of their cases, with mainstream sources, can be found here:
http://9112010.com/911101partVIII.html (Sibel Edmonds)
http://9112010.com/911101partIX.html (Able Danger and Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer)
http://9112010.com/whistleblowersintherealworld.html (a general discussion of the "whistleblowers-to-the-rescue" concept)
Duh!
With the declaration of an endless war on terror and much of the media on their side, they almost succeeded in legitimizing the premise that the commander-in-chief and his designated agents are beyond all law, and ushering in a strange new American oligarchy.
They were successful. It's not a question of "almost". George Wanker Bushism/Cheesedick Cheneyism is being carried on by Obysmal with a few "civilized" caveats for the ladies and gentlemen out there.
In case you don't know about the Truthers...
The "9/11 Truth Movement" believes the most incompetent administraton in U.S. history planned the trickiest hoax in world history, left tons of evidence, and fooled everyone in the world except the conspiracy community.
They also believe international bankers funded a plan to shut down Wall Street. They see no humor in this.
My three favorite 9/11 conspiracy debunking sites:
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Perry logan May 22nd, 2009 12:43 pm................Why not mention DRG's "Debunking the Debunkers.....??.........and the MANY sites that present irrefutable evidence......starting with ae911truth.org.
What makes you think the Bush administration was incompetent? Other than provoking a war with Iran (and they came close on that too), in order to declare a national emergency and thus stay in power, they pretty much accomplished everything they set out to. Just because they accomplished the exact opposite of what most ordinary americans wanted doesn't mean they're incompetent.
No...lol, it most likely means most Americans are not as competent as they. Good point!
Sioux Rose
KANE: Right on! Deflection, most potent tool in the dark magician's tool kit, aided and abetted by deception, its twin.
Excellent point KANE.
People keep telling me what a mess Iraq is - full of chaos, insurgency, and failures. They say the Bush administration completely bungled the whole thing, and cite this as another example of that administration's incompetence. And my reply is always the same . . . "What makes you think this isn't EXACTLY what they wanted to accomplish?" Divide and conquer - it has worked for eons.
Noam Chomsky pointed out in a recent book of his ("What We Say Goes: Conversations on US Power in a Changing World") how ridiculous it is to believe Bush's "dumb" personality and speech is actually real. Chomsky points out that Bush most certainly wouldn't have been talking like that at Yale. He believes the whole persona was a Karl Rove idea to get the people BELIEVING the administration was incompetent to get them looking the wrong way.
I LOVE the incompetence defense. It's made by people who've never heard of Project for the New American Century, let alone read their documents, and have evidently never heard of LYING -- here's an example: a president says he wants to "spread democracy", but what he really wants to do is take as much control of the oil-rich regions of the world as he possibly can and make his incredibly corrupt corporate allies rich in the process. Sound familiar?
Invade Iraq...CHECK!
Radically increase military spending...CHECK!
Radically increase the power of the executive...CHECK!
...and make HUNDREDS of BILLIONS for our rich friends... CHECK!
Incompetent? You think the oil companies are thinking "incompetent"? How about Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, Triple Canopy, etc, etc? If that's incompetence, I think it's safe to say they're thinking, "WE CAN'T GET ENOUGH INCOMPETENCE".
As for "debunking" 9/11 conspiracy theories, before you decide, read this: http://9112010.com. It's about 250 pages long, documented for the most part with mainstream sources -- NY Times, Washington Post, etc. The idea that they -- Dick Cheney and his cohorts -- just COULDN'T have pulled it off doesn't hold up. Neither does the argument that they definitely did it. All we can establish is that they had motive, means, and opportunity, and that the crime of 9/11 has never been properly investigated. The truth has been shut out. But given the stakes, given what's come after, given these men's willingness to sacrifice American lives for their twisted obsessions, it's important we discover that truth.
You forgot one:
Impeach the popular sitting Democratic President on BS charges so that when the next installed Repub President actually DOES do impeachable acts you can cover yourself by crying "sour grapes". CHECK!
I appreciate the cites, Perry logan. Obviously too much to absorb in one afternoon, or maybe ever. I followed UFO stories until, in the 1970's, I actually got a chance to interview people who had seen things that got reported in the media as unexplainable sitings. It soon became apparent that the real mystery surrounding UFO's isn't where they come from or who flies them, but how the human mind can become so convinced by stars, planets, and other natural phenomena that we're being watched or invaded by something originating in space. I see the WTC theories that appear to be believed by writers in this thread analogously. But I certainly intend no disrespect. I could be wrong.
Re Perry logan May 22nd, 2009 12:43 pm
"...the most incompetent administraton in U.S. history..."
Remember the editorial cartoons depicting Bush 41 carrying a purse? I'll bet dollars to donuts he commissioned them---far better to be thought a feckless wimp than the ice-cold killer such a bloodline produces.
43 may be a dolt by comparison, but does anybody believe he was really in charge? "Incompetence" was another carefully constructed scrim, behind which the deadly serious business of deconstructing the Constitution and Bill of Rights went on unobserved and unabated.
I don't believe it's asking too much to want to reexamine ALL our foreign policy "incompetencies," nor do I believe those who doubt the official story of 9/11 do any disservice to the broader movement toward real democracy. Quite the opposite, in fact. Let the truth be told, and let "consent of the governed" adjust itself accordingly.
Jethro Tullamore: "[N]or do I believe those who doubt the official story of 9/11 do any disservice to the broader movement toward real democracy. Quite the opposite, in fact."
There's a time and place for everything. All I'm saying is the march against torture isn't the time and place to march against the official story of 9/11.
Re manning120 May 22nd, 2009 2:59 pm, who says
"There's a time and place for everything. All I'm saying is the march against torture isn't the time and place to march against the official story of 9/11."
I make up my own marching orders, thanks very much, and (unlike you) demand no one to follow.
Not a demand. A suggestion (respectfully submitted).
bush's version of the WTC demolition has been dragged out time and again as justification for extraordinary means.
it was fear which led many americans to sanction torture.
Well said and nicely done! If it is true that the flight of a butterfly can set in motion a raging tornado on the other side of the world, then might not this action be like a fleet enema to the putrid, fetid, rotting corpse of the body politic in the US?
A cleansing, purifying, purging that once properly administered, will enable the body politic to heal and regenerate itself through its own curative powers(aka"checks and balances"). We can only hope so. Meanwhile, thanks to that coalition of citizen organizations for their bold adminstration of this needed purgative.
Poet
"we want our “strategic interests” to line up with our ideals."
What bothers me is the author's blindness to what these "ideals" really are: aggression and acquisition of territory and all that goes with it. The strategic interests of the rich have always trumped any interest in the (general) human existence--even its own citizens, especially here in America. What the author, and "progressives" at large disliked was, at the core, Bush's "personality", not what he and his ilk did. If their party of choice were any different, the democratic leadership would have not gone along with this illegal, murderous war. Their complicit behaviors of those days are only surpassed by their own present ongoing policies of murder and destruction of our economy.
Sadly at this point there is little we can do to stop them, except physically remove them from the city of Washington, D.C.. That said, they'd take the military power they've (we/$) have constructed, and move offshore where they would continue to operate their reign of terror of thuggary, slavery, and murder.
In fact, maybe that's where we are now --being we can't seem to do anything about it. In reality, they don't have to operate nor live here. At this point, they can do their deeds from anywhere in the world--even their desktops. They don't need us. Their soldiers and suppliers are purchased from anywhere in the world. Their bases are planet-wide, even space-based.
Theirs is a "world thing" anyway.
"Never Again"? Quite the contrary.
Exactly. It's the one basic premise that they don't want to deal with. We are owned by predatory corporations. They prey on the world and us. They own our politicians. Our country has great orators and rhetoric but no "ideal" beyond making money regardless of who suffers in the process. This is the one thing that business wont admit because it would open the door to real reform.
The only way to fight these bastards is with frugality. FIGHT TYRANNY! FRUGALITY IS FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY! Just think of watching the CEOs cry in their beer, get foreclosed on their houses and lose the lexus.
Where has the strength and intelligence of the United States of American gone so that nobody has honed in on the real reason for conducting sincere and thorough investigations into both the World Trade Center demolitions? Do we not realize that if American citizens were implicated in the attack on the World Trade Center they could be tried as Traitors, even if said American citizens were high in the chain of command(including the Commander-in-Chief)?
Under Article III, Section 3, of the Constitution, any person who levies war against the United States or adheres to its enemies by giving them Aid and Comfort has committed treason within the meaning of the Constitution. The term aid and comfort refers to any act that manifests a betrayal of allegiance to the United States, such as furnishing enemies with arms, troops, transportation, shelter, or classified information. If a subversive act has any tendency to weaken the power of the United States to attack or resist its enemies, aid and comfort has been given.
Have we the people gone so far from the patriotism of the founding fathers to believe that an attack on the soveriegn soil of the United States against the peoples and government agencies housed in the World Trade Center AND the Pentagon were somehow NOT acts that "levies war against the United States?" Additionally, when the Federal Bereau of Investigation and other government offices were destoryed in the WTC, did not this "subversive act [have] any tendency to weaken the power of the United States?"
Unless we the people are ready to take serious action now, and put enough pressure on current political enablers (read Obama and his ilk), and whatever other measures are necessary to root out these subversive Traitors, we may as well give up our First Amendment rights now to make way for the Bushian New World Order Oligarchy.
Technical point of correction there were three demolitions destroying WTC buildings. WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 all went down in controlled demolition style. (WTC7 happened late in the afternoon of 09/11/01 and in no way could be blamed on any airplane crash and fire because no airplane crashed into WTC7 and the fires--as in WTC 1&2 were incapable of structurally weakening WTC7 to the point of collapse.)
Otherwise, don't overlook the implications that the attempted disbarments of the likes of Addington, Bybee, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Yoo, or any others of similar ilk could have. Once set in motion, things like this can take on a life of their own and go to all sorts of interesting places.
Such an event was the release of Oliver Stone's greatest movie to date, JFK, which posited no theory of "who specifically killed JFK", but very accurately portrayed the gangster-state nature of the security establishment within the Federal government that blocked and suppressed witnesses and evidence at every turn of Jim Garrison's investigation.
That movie, which was ridiculed in the establishment press for 6 months before it wa ever released for public viewing, was primarily responsible for the de-classifying of tens of thousands of pages of heretofore suppressed evidence from the government archives related to this crime due to an act of Congress making it so.
The arrogance of "the powers that be" is unlimited, but their ability to control all things at all times is not. This disbarment story is far from over--in fact it's only just begining.
Poet
Good points, Poet.
"This effort collapsed of its own hubris, as we all know, and now Hope and Change, the Bobbsey Twins of the Democratic Party, skip merrily through the wreckage, disavowing the obvious cruelties of the last eight years and urging us to “move forward” — while the extra-legal pursuit of America’s strategic interests, as defined by the defense establishment, retreats quietly to the background."
Nicely written.
Bring America Back !!!!.......Disbarment would be good ! But remember it did not start with Torture, it began with the mother of all attacks on US Soil, 9/11 !!!
***Team Bush and his merry band of my-son-the-lawyers would plead guilty to torture anyday, the documents already prove that, but they DO NOT want to face up to the real Truth of 9/11 !!!
Which Truth has yet to see the sunshine !!
And, do not count on any help from the Obama Dept of Justice, which is obstructing all of it !!!
The Third Term of "W" is at hand====Who Knew ????
Torture contravenes not only international law but domestic statutes. The Geneva Conventions once adopted became US law. The US signed and ratified the Conventions against torture in 1994 adding to prohibitions against torture and making them US law.
Obama is not "moving the country forward", he's violaating his oath of office and obstructing justice.
An act of torture is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. Conspiracy to commit torture bears the same penalties.
If death occurs under torture, it is a capital crime.
The Geneva Conventions defines aggressive war as the most serious crime of all. The discussion on torture should be expanded to include the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is even more important to prosecute those who defrauded the nation and murdered hundreds of thousands of people for no justifiable reason.