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Weapons Come Second
Can Obama Take on the Pentagon?
The Mega-Pentagon
Under President George W. Bush, military spending increased by about 60%, and that's not including spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Eight years ago, as Bush prepared to enter the Oval Office, military spending totaled just over $300 billion. When Obama sets foot in that same office, military spending will total roughly $541 billion, including the Pentagon's basic budget and nuclear warhead work in the Department of Energy.
And remember, that's before the Global War on Terror enters the picture. The Pentagon now estimates that military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan will cost at least $170 billion in 2009, pushing total military spending for Obama's first year to about $711 billion (a number that is mind-bogglingly large and at the same time a relatively conservative estimate that does not, for example, include intelligence funding, veterans' care, or other security costs).
With such numbers, it's no surprise that the United States is, by a multiple of nearly six, the biggest military spender in the world. (China's military budget, the closest competitor, comes in at a "mere" $120 billion.) Still, it can be startling to confront the simple fact that the U.S. alone accounts for nearly half of all global military spending -- to be as exact as possible in such a murky area, 48% according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies. That's more than what the next 45 nations together spend on their militaries on an annual basis.
Again, keep in mind that war spending for 2009 comes on top of the estimated $864 billion that lawmakers have, since 2001, appropriated for the Iraq war and occupation, ongoing military operations in Afghanistan, and other activities associated with the Global War on Terror. In fact, according to an October 2008 report by the Congressional Research Service, total war spending, quite apart from the regular military budget, is already at $922 billion and quickly closing in on the trillion dollar mark.
Common Sense Cuts?
Years late, and with budgets everywhere bleeding red, some in Congress and elsewhere are finally raising questions about whether this level of spending makes any sense. Unfortunately, the questions are not coming from the inner circle of the president-elect.
Representative Barney Frank (D-MA) drew the ire and consternation of hard-line Republicans and military hawks when, in October, he suggested that Congress should consider cutting defense spending by a quarter. That would mean shaving $177 billion, leaving $534 billion for the U.S. defense and war budget and maintaining a significant distance -- $413 billion to be exact -- between United States and our next "peer competitor." Frank told a Massachusetts newspaper editorial board that, in the context of a struggling economy, the Pentagon will have to start choosing among its many weapons programs. "We don't need all these fancy new weapons," he told the staff of the New Bedford Standard Times. Obama did not back him up on that.
Even chairman of the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense John Murtha (D-PA), a Congressman who never saw a weapons program he didn't want to buy, warned of tough choices on the horizon. While he did not put a number on it, in a recent interview he did say: "The next president is going to be forced to decrease defense spending in order to respond to neglected domestic priorities. Because of this, the Defense Department is going to have to make tough budget decisions involving trade-offs between personnel, procurement and future weapons spending."
And now, President-elect Obama is hearing a similar message from the Defense Business Board, established in 2001 by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to give advice to the Pentagon. A few weeks ago, in briefing papers prepared for President-elect Obama's transition team, the Board, hardly an outfit unfriendly to the Pentagon, argued that some of the Defense Department's big weapons projects needed to be scrapped as the U.S. entered a "period of fiscal constraint in a tough economy." While not listing the programs they considered knife-worthy, the Board did assert that "business as usual is no longer an option."
Desperate Defense
Meanwhile, defense executives and industry analysts are predicting the worst. Boeing CEO Jim McNerney wrote in a "note" to employees, "No one really yet knows when or to what extent defense spending could be affected, but it's unrealistic to think there won't be some measure of impact." Michael Farage, Sikorsky's director of Air Force programs, was even more colorful: "With the economy in the proverbial pooper, defense budgets can only go down."
Kevin G. Kroger, president of a company making oil filters for Army trucks, offered a typical reaction: "There's a lot of uncertainty out there. We're not sure where the budgets are going and what's going to get funded. It leaves us nervous."
It's no surprise that, despite eight years of glut financing via the Global War on Terror, weapons manufacturers, like the automotive Big Three, are now looking for their own bailout. For them, however, it should probably be thought of as a bail-up, an assurance of yet more good times. Even though in recent years their companies have enjoyed strong stock prices, have seen major increases in Pentagon contracts, and are still looking at boom-time foreign weapons sales, expect them to push hard for a bottom-line guarantee via their Holy Grail -- a military budget pegged to the gross domestic product.
"We advocate 4 percent of the GDP as a floor for defense spending. No question that has to be front and center for any new president's agenda," says Marion Blakey, president of the Aerospace Industries Association, a trade group representing companies like Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.
Listening to defense industry figures talk, you could get the impression that the Pentagon's larder was empty and that the pinching of pennies and tightening of belts was well underway. While the cuts suggested by the Defense Business Board report got a lot of attention, the Pentagon is already quietly laying the groundwork to lock the future Obama administration into a possibly slightly scaled-down version of the over-the-top military spending of the Bush years.
Business as Usual?
At the beginning of October, the Pentagon's latest five-year projection of budget needs was revealed in the Congressional Quarterly. These preliminary figures -- the full request should be released sometime next month -- indicate that the Pentagon's starting point in its bargaining with the new administration and Congress comes down to one word: more.
The estimates project $450 billion more in spending over those five years than previously suggested figures. Take fiscal year 2010: the Pentagon is evidently calling for a military budget of $584 billion, an increase of $57 billion over what they informed President Bush and Congress they would need just a few months ago.
Unfortunately, when it comes to military spending and defense, the record is reasonably clear -- Obama is not about to go toe-to-toe with the military-industrial-complex.
On the campaign trail, his stump speech included this applause-ready line suggesting that the costs of the war in Iraq are taking away from important domestic priorities: "If we're spending $10 billion a month [in Iraq] over the next four or five years, that's $10 billion a month we're not using to rebuild the U.S., or drawing down our national debt, or making sure that families have health care."
But the "surge" that Obama wants to shift from Iraq to Afghanistan is unlikely to be a bargain. In addition, he has repeatedly argued for a spike in defense spending to "reset" a military force worn out by war. He has also called for the expansion of the size of the Army and the Marines. On that point, he is in complete agreement with Defense Secretary Robert Gates. They even use the same numbers, suggesting that the Army should be augmented by 65,000 new recruits and the Marines by 27,000. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that these manpower increases alone would add about $10 billion a year -- that same campaign trail $10 billion -- to the Pentagon budget over a five-year period.
The word from Wall Street? In a report entitled "Early Thoughts on Obama and Defense," a Morgan Stanley researcher wrote on November 5th, "As we understand it, Obama has been advised and agrees that there is no peace dividend… In addition, we believe, based on discussions with industry sources that Obama has agreed not to cut the defense budget at least until the first 18 months of his term as the national security situation becomes better understood."
In other words: Don't worry about it. President Obama is not about to hand the next secretary of defense a box of brownie mix and order him to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber.
Smarter, Not More, Military Spending
Sooner rather than later, the new administration will need to think seriously about how to spend smarter -- and significantly less -- on the military. Our nose-diving economy simply will no longer support ever-climbing defense budgets.
The good news is that the Obama administration won't have to figure it all out alone. The contributors to Foreign Policy In Focus's new Unified Security Budget have done a lot of the heavy lifting to demonstrate that some of the choices that need to be made really aren't so tough. The report makes the case for reductions in military spending on outdated or unproven weapons systems totaling $61 billion. The argument is simple and straightforward: these expensive systems don't keep us safe. Some were designed for a geopolitical moment that is long gone -- like the F-22 meant to counter a Soviet plane that was never built. Others, like the ballistic missile defense program, are clearly meant only to perpetuate insecurity and provoke proliferation.
To cut the military budget more deeply, however, means more than canceling useless, high-tech weapons systems. It means taking on something fundamental and far-reaching: America's place in the world. It means coming to grips with how we garrison the planet, with how we use our military to project influence and power anywhere in the world, with our attitudes towards international treaties and agreements, with our vast passels of real estate in foreign lands, and, of course, with our economic and political relationships with clients and competitors.
As a candidate, Barack Obama stirred our imagination through his calls for a "new era of international cooperation." The United States cannot, however, cooperate with other nations from atop our shining Green Zone on the hill; we cannot cooperate as the world's sole superpower, policeman, cowboy, hyperpower, or whatever the imperial nom du jour turns out to be. Bottom line: we cannot genuinely and effectively cooperate while spending more on what we like to call "security" than the next 45 nations combined.
A new era in Pentagon spending would have to begin with a recognition that enduring security is not attained by threat or fiat, nor is it bought with staggering billions of dollars. It is built with other nations. Weapons come second.
- Posted in



110 Comments so far
Show All“Obama has agreed not to cut the defense budget at least until the first 18 months of his term as the national security situation becomes better understood”
Right, because we don’t know yet how many bombers it takes to reverse global warming, or how many tanks you need to achieve universal health coverage.
Yes jlocke, and may be one of these Chicken Hawks can tell us how many B-2 Stealth Bombers loaded with Nukes (at $2 Billion a copy) are needed to stop 19 Arabs with box-cutters?
Frida Berrigan does really good work. It is usually not relevant who one's parents are, but I'm old enough to remember the peace work of Frida Berrigan's father and mother. Frida Berrigan is the daughter of Philip Berrigan and Elizabeth McAlister. I salute her whole family and the activists with whom they have associated and worked/work with to make this country a better place.
.I wonder if she is related to Daniel Berrigan who penned the lines below?
"The noblest thing one can do is to live as if the truth were true."
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Daniel Berrigan, being brother of Philip Berrigan, would be Frida's uncle. It's a fabulous extended family. If my memory is correct, Daniel Berrigan and Howard Zinn went to North Vietnam together to bring back some captured US military during the Vietnam War, as told in Howard Zinn's "You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train". I read the Beacon Press, 2003 edition. It's my favorite book. A handbook on making change, in a way.
George Wanker Bush, Cheesedick Cheney, the Neocons and the whole Bush apparatus specialized in that Nazi tactic of The Big Lie. Tell it over and over and over and eventually the lazy and the uninformed will believe it, just as they believed their parents telling them about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. Obama must now specialize in The Big Truth: you can preserve your way of life or you can go on pretending to be an empire. But you can't have both. There really is a monster in the closet; it's called destitution.
It doesn't look like the president-elect is going to stray too far from the Clinton ranch. Didn't he just cave to the banks? and Gates?
Oh, get real. Obama isn't going to "take on the Pentagon", any more than he will take on Wall Street, Israel, or any other blood-sucking parasites on the body politic. He is a neo-liberal imperialist same as the old boss hollow sham. Wake up and weep.
The last president that took on the Pentagon got it socked to him--JFK didn't listen to his superiors about how to properly do the Cuban invasion
Dr Wu, the last of the big-time thinkers
We need to expand Military Budgets not contract them
The Army had 18 Divisions under Bush 41 and Clinton (stupidly) cut them to 10...Germany lost WWII because they could not fight a sustained 2 front War...U.S. Doctrine ever since was to never get caught in that situation...Clinton ignored History ....that is one of the Major reasons Tours were extended to 15 months in Iraq and you had the massive mobilization of Guard and reserve Units...
He may cut or slow some individual weapon programs but with the World situation turning to shit more and more daily higher defense budgets, not lower are to be expected (and I work for DOD and I know what I'm talking about)
Read anything by Chalmers Johnson on this subject and more Frida Berrigan. If you work for DOD..... bring in lots of Chalmers Johnson books on the US and Empire and lots of Frida Berrigan articles. How open are you to points of view?
I'm not closed minded...but I don't need the books, thank you anyway ...I have 31 years of real experience...I'm not Rambo or anything but I have seen the threats close up...Its not about U.S. Empire...it never was
unfortunately a lot of readers on this site truly believe The Pentagon attacked itself on 9/11 and Bush blew up the Towrs...I kind of want to see their reaction at the next terror attack...will they say Obama did it for cheap oil or to become President for life? (read Chupacabra's post above this one...THAT is a Kool-aid drinker...He just proved my point)
I believe Obama when he says he is for Diplomacy first...but Diplomacy is futile without something to back it up (Carrot and stick, ya know?)
Chalmers Johnson has both videos and articles online, especially on Tom Engelhardt's website: www.tomdispatch.com You won't have to read a book. If you work at the DOD, and that long, I also suggest you read James Carroll's articles, who you might know. James Carroll's articles are frequently on CD.
.Saying you are not closed minded directly contradicts almost every single effort of yours in this forum. You have proven unable to grasp the changes in our military needs since World War 2 and you ally yourself with those who believe we need ever more capital ships, tanks, B1B's and the like when the wars we fight now are limited engagement wars in extremely localized areas against indigenous populations, and we shouldn't be engaging in much of those.
Your thirty one years of doing as you were told makes you an expert only in obedience and gives you no cachet whatever in wisdom. That there are conspiracy theorists here is a moot point and has nothing whatever to do with the subject at hand. I suspect you raise the point only to lump all who disagree with you under the extremist umbrella.
When Great Britain was beset with "the troubles", and France involved with the ALF, they had no draft dodging little dry drunk in charge as we did on 9/11. They dealt with the bombings and such using the police, and did so quite successfully too! Of course the military was involved in Ireland and Algeria, but they only made things worse, the bulk of the successes against those groups was accomplished, not by military action but by good police work.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee:Hi. Mostly marvelous is reply to your comment. I do think I heard on DemocracyNow that the French used torture in Algeria. England didn't bomb Ireland, but they sure have kept a lot of people in prison and some "pre-emptive detention" and extending the number of days people can be held as well as a history of leaving their colonies in a state based on division of land so folks "go at it" for years afterwards. (I read the Guardian.co.uk online.) One of the nicest things I heard about England was that they had to give up Empire and hope the US does,too. An aside: have you read Tariq Ali's articles online? I am sure you'll like the one he did in the Guardian on "where have the radicals from the 1960s" or 1968 gone? It's super.
.Hey NYCa,
Of course there were such incidents, as there was also military involvement in both cases. My point was that the chief methodology for combating domestic terrorism was good police work.
For Thomas, Now mommy, us children are playing nice!
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee
Now boys........I can't leave you guys alone for a minute!
"When Great Britain was beset with "the troubles", and France involved with the ALF, they had no draft dodging little dry drunk in charge as we did on 9/11."
That was dandy!!!
See a note on since1492's posting, its for both of you.
Awesome.
I am so happy to see more crazy on top of more crazy.
(talking about Snow Wolf - not Ardee {who seems actually well read})
Still denying the existence of the empire I see SnowWolf. Somethings never change.
Good to see you back.
In a way, if we continue to pursue the adventure of empire, I agree - we will need to expand military budgets. But I submit that the pursuit of that phantom is insane and will inevitably bankrupt and destroy what remains of the republic and I am oppossed to it - if anybody actually asks me - which they won't.
I find your observation concerning why Germany lost WWII rather simplistic.
I find your statement concerning the 'lesson' we learned from their defeat somewhat overstated. NSC 68 - declassified in the '70s - offers a different view concerning why our governmental 'masters' think we need a big military than what you suggest. Some of them worked for the 'defense department' too.
As an aside, I don't find your trolling for creditility "...and I work for DOD and I know what I'm talking about." by itself very convincing. Jerry Falwall claims to work for God but I wouldn't consider him an expert on the subject. What imparts credibility is not who pays your salary, but the quality of your arguments.
wasn't a plug for my credibility...just pointing out that I get to see a lot of where they're coming from...
I have a funny feeling that BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) is going to become ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) when they realize Obama isn't going to Cut Military Spending like they feel he should...or close Guantanamo ...he can't...not if he has any brains....and I figure he does...he ran a brilliant campaign....He's going to have to fight the next 2 front War... Afghanistan/Pakistan Border...and Al Queda's exodus into Africa ...This has never been about expanding American Emire...its about stopping the rise of radical Islam...they aren't suddenly going to stop their plans for Global Domination just because Obama got Elected...I seem to recall they called him a "House Negro" last week...really upset Al Sharpton (although Al Himself called Colin Powell one during Bush's first term...Karma's a bitch huh?)
"This has never been about expanding American Emire...its about stopping the rise of radical Islam...they aren't suddenly going to stop their plans for Global Domination just because Obama got Elected."
Before they had radical Islam they had international communism and before that the Nazis and before that ... we didn't have a permanent military, did we? This is about holding on to the power they got during WWII. This is about generating economies of scale through military Keynesianism. This is about avoiding dealing with the inadequacies of capitalism revealed during the Great Depression. This is about the stated plans of the military-industrial complex (PNAC) for Global Domination. This is about a lot of things. What it has absolutely nothing to do with is keeping our families safe or preserving our freedoms.
Radical Islam would have no support if we just got out of their countries. They barely have any support now. Of course, if you people get your way they could become a lot stronger.
Usually I try to be patient with the ignorance of people but in Snow Wolf’s case I will make an exception because I think he is either deliberately trolling here or he is playing some dumb game for HLS.
You talk about the US’s war against Al Qaeda migrating to Africa. If you want to know how to stimulate the “the rise of radical Islam...” in Africa don't ask Al qaeda, just ask the CIA they know exactly how to put the cat among the pigeons:
It is not a coincidence that the US is fighting extremists around the world, you need an enemy to justify the expenditure, the last fling of the MIC and you have a delusion of global control and grandeur which is directly related to the other of global corporate imperialism.
Take a read of : Nobody is watching, Americas hidden war in Afghanistan
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-shadow_war2nov24,0,4720127.story
If there’s this big bad enemy out there getting bigger perhaps rather than lobbing a couple of billions more in missiles you should start asking why and who is thwe real enemy. Personally I believe its YOU.
You bring up the 9-11 sceptics of the Bush Conspiracy Theory and the subsequent lies and cover-up, but I hope readers here remember that Defence Sec. Rumsfeld announced on 9-10 that he could not account for 2.3 trillion, see the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU )
He managed to get the announcement, and the problem “buried” the next day. How convenient! But did that clear his responsibility? Was that the end of it? Well no, but the next day, whatever it was, some say Flight 77, complicated the issue a just a little more, coincidentally. “From The Pittsburgh Post Gazette, December 20, 2001: "One Army office in the Pentagon lost 34 of its 65 employees in the attack. Most of those killed in the office, called Resource Services Washington, were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and budget analysts…. It was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information was in the damaged area." And Insight Magazine editorialized that "the Department of the Army, headed by former Enron executive Thomas White, had an excuse [for not making a full accounting]. In a shocking appeal to sentiment it says it didn't publish a "stand-alone" financial statement for 2001 because of "the loss of financial-management personnel sustained during the Sept. 11 terrorist attack."
And you talk about “killing two birds with one stone” the events of 9 – 11 rolled out a whole new un-accountable spending spree, including the War of Terror and two pointless bloody occupations.
My full comment on the great American hood winking called “defence” appears on a similar subject article covering many of the same points titled, Smart Defense, by Katrina vanden Heuvel which appeared last week here on CD : http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/11/18-4
Personally, I am happy to see the America that can steal quite so much money from its citizens to afford and cause such mayhem in the world destroyed and defeated, as it inevitably will be by its own avarice. So in that sense bring on the next anti-missile program which doesn’t work! That’s what we all need to see.
SnowWolf is no troll, he is straight up about his opinions and his postings. I'd suggest that just because a different opinion is expressed, doesn't mean its ignorant.
To sell Al Qaeda, Muslim extremism, and such boogy men, as the reason for a country, that accounts already for more than half of the global expenditure on military to spend more, given that the self same expenditure is to a large extent on the development of highly sophisticated weapons systems, when the alleged enemies are apparently using box cutters and 20 dollar road side bombs, is not a question of difference of opinion but a matter of total ignorance and delusion, the same delusions peddled by the MIC, and a principal qualification of most of the US Senators, Representatives, Administration and it is why the US has become the global pariah that it is.
Absolutely correct!!
.Man, have I a bridge to sell you ,sir. Snow Wolf has certainly shown his true colors enough times to make your defense of his "honesty" rather trivial next to his call for endless war against the Muslim world and ever more military expenditures when it has been so plainly proven that they waste money with a mind numbing consistency..
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
He has never made any effort to portray his opinion as anything but that. His opinion. He and I don't agree on most things, but do on some, but there are many people that hold different views than I do.
I don't mind any postings unless they are dishonest, racist, or filled with rhetoric like Storm Trooper, Nazi or absurd crap like that.
Besides what would I do with another bridge? My backyard is full of them.
.You know I encourage all opinions, Thomas, as I believe that a free and open dialogue is necesary to the decision making process. I do not,however, hesitate to assert that the policies he ( Snowie)advocates and supports lead only to more violence not less, to the enrichment of the few and the suffering of the many.
That he is a walking ,talking advertisment for the extreme right wing, that his posts may be well written and clear while tinged with bigotry towards 1.4 million followers of Islam, that he claims an expertise because he turned a wrench in uniform for thirty years are all absurdities in need of perspective.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Ah-Ha! "You know I encourage all opinions,"
I know you do. And I also know you will assert left, right and dead center if you disagree with anyone...except me of course as I'm never wrong, to which everyone here can attest....
Perhaps a smaller hammer......
Thomas... sometimes even some of the more sincere "expressions of opinion" are highly ignorant.
You've been reading my posts again!
Once again, nice to see you posting.
Thanks Lucitanian. You saved me so much typing--right on. Our "Defense" Dept. is more like an Offense Dept. And speaking of 9/11 (thats the elephant in the room), it could not have been carried off without the wonderful cooperation and active assistance of our "War Dept." It needs immediate shrinking by half, just for starters.
SnowWolf; I would really appreciate it if you could troll elsewhere. The Project for the New American Century is failed and finished. We are having an intelligent exchange here and I am not drinking the radical Islam-Be Very Afraid Kool Aid. Thank You.
.I would offer that you make a serious mistake in condemning the presence of alternative opinion here or anywhere. I find the opinions of Snow Wolf to be very, very wrong and his political direction wrong headed as well. Yet I would never suggest that he be silenced or asked to leave. In fact I would encourage him to post more frequently and on an expanded political agenda as well.
Not only does he expose the fallacies of his politics and make a great sounding board to expand upon the rightness of the progressive agenda but he serves to make me feel so much better about my own positions.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Ah-Ha!
.You are not surprised Thomas, I trust.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"You are not surprised Thomas, I trust."
Of course not! And you knew I wouldn't be.
"..where they're coming from"
'They're' being whom? Islamists or US military planners?
I have no illusion that Mister Obama will rationalize the military. I'm a pessimist and think it's so invasive now, so much a part of our national fabric that nothing will change its influence over our lives. I am guessing that we will continue to be the most successful modern militarized national security state until we are totally bankrupt - not just monitarily, but spiritually, politically, economically, and ethically. That may take some time.
"This has never been about expanding American Emire...its about stopping the rise of radical Islam..."
So does this you mean you recognize there is an American Empire?
I certainly don't carry water for radical Islamists or radical Zionism or radical Americanism for that matter. As has been I think wisely stated somewhere else on CD, a concerted, international 'police' response to the 9/11 'criminals' would have been more effective and resulted in less 'blowback' than has our blundering invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan for reasons obviously other than national security.
Our government always portrays its actions as merely responses to others' actions without context. If you believe the propaganda, we're just hanging out in the world doing our own thing and not bothering anybody. But that's not the fact. We have military assets/bases in numerous other countries (and building more all the time) yet no other country has a base on US soil. What does that tell you?
Because of this mythology about innocent little old America, Mister Bush could answer the major 9/11 quesion: Why do they hate us? with his nonsense about 'hating our freedom' when in actuality they hated/hate our imperial and murderous actions in the world. These actions are largely downplayed, distorted, or kept from most Americans who generally have to do a lot of digging around in the non-mainstream media to find out about them. I'll let you decide for yourself why the 'mainstream media' doesn't tell us the extent to which we 'terrorize' the rest of the world.
Do I support their violence against us? No. But I understand it. Apparently a lot of 'smart guys' in government either don't understand it or don't care. It is amazing how effective propaganda is in America; and the most thoroughly propagandized are always the maintainers of that very system of propaganda.
We've become the world cop and we like it. We search the world for 'evils' to remedy. We've staked our future on a preponderent military and need to justify its existence and pay the price - in blood - for that world view. It displays a perfect example of that old saying: 'If your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.'
I’m having difficulty to follow the logic of your comment. It is premised on the concept that there is a real enemy out there and that the actions of the Bush administration or the “global war of terror” have been ham fisted, that there would be better and more effective ways of dealing with the “enemy”.
“…a concerted, international 'police' response to the 9/11 'criminals' ……” the trouble with that approach is that you would actually have to investigate and get “real” evidence against the criminals. The same goes for 7/7, Atocha station in Madrid and the Bali Bombings, and probably Mumbai last night too; in as much as that, the effects of terrorism are real enough, but where it is coming from and who is behind the curtain directing it is far from apparent, but that it is successfully used is so clear. The whole PNAC, neocon, Bush wars, privatized military no bid contract billions, none of it could have happen without “Bin Laden” and the whole made up fantasy of Al Qaeda.
Perhaps there are by now some real terrorist cells out there, but when they phone al Qaeda they are calling Langley. And, whoever they are they are nothing compared to the false flag operations put together to start and maintain the plethora of myths. And be sure, it is easy enough to line up a couple of Saudi, or Moroccan or Egyptian or Pakistani angry young men. The MIC needs an enemy, and one that cannot be caught seen or measured is the best kind.
You write “Do I support their violence against us? No. But I understand it. Apparently a lot of 'smart guys' in government either don't understand it or don't care. It is amazing how effective propaganda is in America; ….”
Or perhaps a few of them just want you to think that. And you don’t think they are playing with your head.
But yet you know all the reasons they are doing just that, when you write, “We've staked our future on a preponderent military and need to justify its existence”
So you know they are lying to you yet you seem to buy into their lies.
Which part of the Psyops, mind games, propaganda did you miss? Face it, you have no democracy, you are played for what your worth to corporate interests, and you belong to big brother.
As the movie said, “Do you? Do you want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!”
Lots of heat, but not much light.
‘I’m having difficulty to follow the logic of your comment. It is premised on the concept that there is a real enemy out there and that the actions of the Bush administration or the “global war of terror” have been ham fisted, that there would be better and more effective ways of dealing with the “enemy”. ‘
If you have a problem dealing with the logic of my comment the problem lies on your side. And since you seem to have an agenda you wish to pursue - whatever the facts - or a problem understanding simple prose, I’ll try to keep it simple for you. The World Trade Towers were destroyed. Someone did it and someone ordered it. It was a criminal act. We should find and deal with the criminals. We did not deal with the criminals by invading Iraq and Afghanistan. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan merely granted a level of credibility to the criminals – whoever they were. The criminals are still out there. We should use law enforcement tactics at least to start, to pursue them – not military tactics. Nowhere did I state who the criminals were.
I did suggest that there is, or has been manufactured, what we call ‘radical Islamists’ who among other things don’t like our support for Israel or our occupation of muslim lands. I think that can be demonstrated to your satisfaction. Those are the folks whose violence I don’t support but understand.
“But yet you know all the reasons they are doing just that, when you write, “We've staked our future on a preponderent military and need to justify its existence”
So you know they are lying to you yet you seem to buy into their lies.”
I’m trying to take what you say seriously but you keep taking things out of context to distort them. The full comment is: “‘We've become the world cop and we like it. We search the world for 'evils' to remedy. We've staked our future on a preponderent military and need to justify its existence and pay the price - in blood - for that world view. It displays a perfect example of that old saying: 'If your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.’”
What has any of this to do with ‘lying’ and ‘buying into their lies’? We have staked our future on a preponderent military and need to justify its existence. It’s a fact. I don’t subscribe to that policy, I just note it.
“It is premised on the fact that a crime was committed – the destruction of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. So you know they are lying to you yet you seem to buy into their lies. Which part of the Psyops, mind games, propaganda did you miss? Face it, you have no democracy, you are played for what your worth to corporate interests, and you belong to big brother.”
Man, you got it bad! Take a pill. Try addressing what I said, not who you think I may be or what I think.
Let me go out on a limb here and please correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to think there is a vast governmental conspiracy out there that is responsible for our ills. I’m sorry but I just don’t subscribe to that position. I am not closed to such an idea but there is insufficient evidence to support your claim. If you would provide some evidence - not just angry rhetorical accusation - I'd be glad to adjust my views.
You make some unwarrented assumptions. First: that there is a vast and secret governmental conspiracy, second: that ‘they’, this shadowy governmental conspiracy, are lying to me and third: that I’m somehow naïve enough to buy into those lies. Yet you provide or have no evidence to support any of those claims. Beyond that, you don’t actually address my comments, only my apparent gullibility – always the last refuge of a bully and a fraud – and by the way the same sleasy tactics the Bush people, whom you seem to despise, have used for eight years. I try to deal in facts and evidence, not in delusion. Maybe you should try it too.
‘As the movie said, “Do you? Do you want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!”’
You sound very angry. I’m sorry for you. Your closing assumes the wearying posture of those who believe they have ‘the truth’ and those who don’t share that view not only don’t have ‘the truth’ but are somehow complicit dupes ripe for personal attack. I usually see this attitude in religious fanatics, but I guess it’s the same for anyone who has invested so much of themselves in something they take personally but may not be true.
Well said.
Disclosure - I am not American. I want to see the US pull back to within its own borders and defend itself from there. I don't want the US protecting me and the rest of the world. I don't want the US exploiting the world's mineral, environmental, economic, and human resources to make itself more prosperous than everyone else or to attack whoever it perceives at the time as an enemy. I don't believe it's a simple matter of good vs. evil. I don't want Ballistic Missile Defence. I don't want the military industrial complex hogging all the wealth.
I empathize with those affected by 9/11 but I realize that people are being bombed and lives destroyed like that every day somewhere in the world. I am no more scared of Islamic terrorists than I am of people like Timothy McVey, the KKK, or any other violent intolerant fundamentalist.
I think the huge gaps in income between the rich and the poor individuals and countries are the real threat to my well-being. I think poverty and lack of access to livelihood encourages terrorism. I want every person to have access to adequate food, shelter, health care, education and livelihood.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Jake:I want what you want, as outlined in Paragraph 1. I'd add England and France,too. I think I'm still thinking about your paragraphs #2 and 3. I think I may have, along with others in NYC in the days following Sept. 11, 200l inhaled some of the people who were incinerated at/in the World Trade Center. I was opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan at the time, and said so. (I was not online at the time. Am only online for a year.)
I think every person is entitled to safety, shelter, education, water, food, health care, choices, work or if not able to work, income. I am for human rights for all people on the planet.
Beautifully said Jake.I am an American and I feel the same way.
Jake
Works for me. And I believe you are going to get at least part of the wish list.
Posted wrong place, sorry.
SnowWolf This is for SnowWolf November 26th, 2008 1:59 pm, keeps throwing it down here for some reason.
Welcome back.
You wouldn't need to raise the defense budget if you cut off all the expensive contactors like Blackwater and Hughes, etc, would you?
And you and I both know there are programs like the tilt rotor that should have been junked years ago. Years ago.
Would you consider its perfectly possible to add troops while maintaining or even reducing the current budget? Especially if we closed some quite useless bases?
Pure bullshit. For the last 8 years, the military was expanded and eventually stretched thin and we lost in Iraq and Afghanistan anyway. Put away your guns and bombs and sit down and learn to be reasonable please. Even many DOD workers I talked to agree that our military is being wasted in the wrong places and wrong purposes. Not all DOD contractors are pee brained rightwingers.