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TechnoratiThe rise of Mike Huckabee as a presidential candidate represents a seismic shift in the tactics, ideology and direction of the radical Christian right. Huckabee may stumble and falter in later primaries, but his right-wing Christian populism is here to stay. Huckabee represents a new and potent force in American politics, and the neocons and corporate elite, who once viewed the yahoos of the Christian right as the useful idiots, are now confronted with the fact that they themselves are the ones who have been taken for a ride. Members of the Christian right, recruited into the Republican Party and manipulated to vote against their own interests around the issues of abortion and family values, are in rebellion. They are taking the party into new, uncharted territory. And they presage, especially with looming economic turmoil, the rise of a mass movement that could demolish what is left of American democracy and set the stage for a Christian fascism.
The corporate establishment, whose plundering of the country created fertile ground for a radical, right-wing backlash, is sounding the alarm bells. It is scrambling to bolster Mitt Romney, who, like Rudy Giuliani or Hillary Clinton, will continue to slash and burn on behalf of corporate profits. Columnist George Will called Huckabee's populism "a comprehensive apostasy against core Republican beliefs." He wrote that Huckabee's candidacy "broadly repudiates core Republican policies such as free trade, low taxes, the essential legitimacy of America's corporate entities and the market system allocating wealth and opportunity." National Review's Rich Lowry wrote that "like [Howard] Dean, his nomination would represent an act of suicide by his party."
Huckabee spoke of this revolt on the "Today" show. "There's a sense in which all these years the evangelicals have been treated very kindly by the Republican Party," he said. "They wanted us to be a part of it. And then one day one of us actually runs and they say, 'Oh, my gosh, now they're serious.' They [evangelicals] don't want to just show up and vote, they actually would want to be a part of the discussion."
George Bush is a happy stooge of his corporate handlers. He blithely enriches the oligarchy, defends a war that is the worst foreign policy blunder in American history and callously denies medical benefits to children. Huckabee is different. He has tapped into the rage and fury of the working class, dispossessed and abandoned by the mainstream Democrats and Republicans. And he refuses to make the ideology of the Christian right, with its dark contempt for democratic traditions and intolerance of nonbelievers, a handmaiden of the corporate establishment. This makes him a much more lethal and radical political force.
The Christian right is the most potent and dangerous mass movement in American history. It has been controlled and led, until now, by those who submit to the demands of the corporate state. But the grass roots are tired of being taken for rubes. They are tired of candidates, like Bush or Bill Clinton, who roll out the same clichés about working men and women every four years and then spend their terms enriching their corporate backers. The majority of American citizens have spent the last two decades watching their government services and benefits vanish. They have seen their jobs go overseas and are watching as their communities crumble and their houses are foreclosed. It is their kids who are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The old guard in the Christian right, the Pat Robertsons, who used their pulpits to deliver the votes of naive followers to the corporatists, is a spent force. Huckabee's Christian populism represents the maturation of the movement. It signals the rise of a truly radical, even revolutionary force in American politics, of which Huckabee may be one of the tamer and less frightening examples.
Hints of Huckabee's bizarre worldview seep out now and then. Bob Vander Plaats, Huckabee's Iowa campaign manager, for example, when asked about his candidate's lack of foreign policy experience, told MSNBC: "Well, I think Gov. Huckabee has a lot of resources that he goes to on national security matters. Here's a guy, a former pastor, who understands a theological nature of this war as we're fighting a radical religion in Islam."
Robert Novak noted that Huckabee held a fundraiser last week at the Houston home of Dr. Steven Hotze. As Novak wrote, Hotze is "a leader in the highly conservative Christian Reconstruction movement."
Huckabee has close ties with the Christian Reconstructionist or Dominionist branch of the Christian right. The Dominionist movement, which seeks to cloak itself in the mantle of the Christian faith and American patriotism, is small in numbers but influential. It departs from traditional evangelicalism. It seeks to redefine traditional democratic and Christian terms and concepts to fit an ideology that calls on the radical church to take political power. It shares many prominent features with classical fascist movements, at least as such movements are defined by the scholar Robert O. Paxton, who sees fascism as "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cultures of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
Dominionism, born out of Christian Reconstructionism, seeks to politicize faith. It has, like all fascist movements, a belief in magic along with leadership adoration and a strident call for moral and physical supremacy of a master race, in this case American Christians. It also has, like fascist movements, an ill-defined and shifting set of beliefs, some of which contradict each other. Paxton argues that the best way to understand authentic fascist movements, which he says exist in all societies, including democracies, is to focus not on what they say but on how they act, for, as he writes, some of the ideas that underlie fascist movements "remain unstated and implicit in fascist public language" and "many of them belong more to the realm of visceral feelings than to the realm of reasoned propositions."
Dominionism teaches that American Christians have been mandated by God to make America a Christian state. A decades-long refusal by most American fundamentalists to engage in politics at all following the Scopes trial has been replaced by a call for Christian "dominion" over the nation and, eventually, over the Earth itself. Dominionism preaches that Jesus has called on Christians to actively build the kingdom of God on Earth. America becomes, in this militant Biblicism, an agent of God, and all political and intellectual opponents of America's Christian leaders are viewed, quite simply, as agents of Satan. Under Christian dominion, America will no longer be a sinful and fallen nation but one in which the Ten Commandments form the basis of our legal system, in which creationism and "Christian values" form the basis of our educational system, and the media and the government proclaim the Good News to one and all. Labor unions, civil rights laws and public schools will be abolished. Women will be removed from the work force to stay at home, and all those deemed insufficiently Christian will be denied citizenship.
Baptist minister Rick Scarborough, founder of Vision America and a self-described "Christocrat," who attended the Texas fundraiser, has endorsed Huckabee. Scarborough, along with holding other bizarre stances, opposes the HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccine on grounds that it interferes with God's punishment of sexual license. And Huckabee, who once advocated isolating AIDS patients from the general public and opposed increased federal funding in the search for a cure, comes out of this frightening mold. He justified his call to quarantine those with AIDS because they could "pose a dangerous public health risk."
"If the federal government is truly serious about doing something with the AIDS virus, we need to take steps that would isolate the carriers of this plague," Huckabee wrote. "It is difficult to understand the public policy towards AIDS. It is the first time in the history of civilization in which the carriers of a genuine plague have not been isolated from the general population, and in which this deadly disease for which there is no cure is being treated as a civil rights issue instead of the true health crisis it represents."
Huckabee has publicly backed off from this extreme position, but he remains deeply hostile to gays. He has used wit and humor to deflect reporters from his radical views about marriage, abortion, damnation, biblical law, creationism and the holy war he believes we are fighting with Islam. But his stances represent a huge step, should they ever become policy, toward a theocratic state and the death of our open society. In the end, however, I do not blame Huckabee or the tens of millions of hapless Christians-40 percent of the Republican electorate-who hear his words and rejoice. I blame the corporate state, those who thought they could disempower and abuse the working class, rape the country, build a rapacious oligarchy and never pay a political price.
Chris Hedges, who graduated from Harvard Divinity School and was for nearly two decades a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, is the author of "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America."
©2007 TruthDig.com
133 Comments so far
Show AllOK, all you ranters! Tell me about the hospitals, schools, hospices, and shelters that you have founded and/or work in.
If you are too sick or old to travel, perhaps you send doctors and nurses and teachers to Darfur and other atheist-forsaken places? Or have you occasionally dropped a coin in the Salvation Army pot at Christmas? Perhaps you volunteer at a senior center?
What is your motive for what you do and for what you refuse to do?
I'm searching for some volition here. What moves the ranters in this bunch? No matter the subject of the article, it becomes a forum for atheist hatred.
This article is about the EVANGELICALS' revolt.
let us not forget all the bloodshed that has been perpetrated throughout history in the name of gods and religions, led by, and blessed by the church. it continues to this day, by the ministers, and pastors of the u.s. military, as well as the islamic clerics.
Spartanladkenny, i believe jesus and allah, have both jumped ship. along with all the other gods. we are on our own my friend.
Irish -
"I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Then the only question will be whether we wind up speaking Chinese or Arabic. Probably Arabic."
I thought learning new languages was always a good thing.
You try really hard to sound enlightened but you're just another SCARED american who can't breathe easy because your neighbor is a muslim or because your children are playing with cheap chinese toys. But all along you're readily using oil from MUSLIM lands and chinese products because you can't help living your American dream.
You really need a shrink to help you because Jesus has already abandoned ship!
Mixing up religion and politics is dangerous idea for ANY religious group.
I am a muslim and Islam promotes the idea of a JUST caliphate. If you really study the idea of it, it sounds good on paper. But then Islam makes these assumptions about the ruler who by default will be carrying out the WILL of God and will do NO wrong. This assumption to me is pretty far fetched as we humans, are prone to materialistic attractions which push us away from the goal of doing good for the society and the humanity at large.
In essence, it is pretty much impossible to have a leader who follows the will of God, yada yada. It is much better that we leave all those ideals to where they belong, in a fat book on your book shelf. As for us mortals, we should strive to eliminate corrupt influences which have decayed our society.
My in-laws are Baptist missionaries and for them Huckabee seems like the best possible candidate. Why? Because he's Baptist and a former pastor. Huckabee tries to downplay his past role as a pastor but he makes sure people don't forget it either. He has certain ideas which I like (fair tax) but he's way too much of a homo-hater for my liking. I don't want a President of a MAN-MADE republic who will turn to his GODLY bible for guidance. The two don't mix and when you try to do it the results are lethal. Mike Huckabee also went around blaming homos, drug addicts, sex addiction as the cause of the current problems in America. I ask, do you really think sex, drugs and homosexuality are the biggest problems in America and not our endless thirst for money, dominance of the world and our reliance on violence to achieve our goals? That to me is a warped view of the world and anybody who sees the society in that manner is a lunatic.
padma, right on the mark. thank you.
Jesus is waiting for us in the future as a trans-humanist -- hey, is that any less wacky than the Bible? I could start my own religion, in fact I just did. I'm going to call it Moronism.
We can't afford to wait for Jesus. Millions killed in the influenza epidemics, the Great War, WWII, the genocides and famines of the 20th century.
We need to build this Jesus.
lpenek
I agree, and they really became a force to be manipulated for political gain with Ronald Reagan, one of the worst presidents we've ever had.
Jesus would do the same as the last time he was here, except the next time he comes, he won't be persecuted, __ he will be the man and the bad guys will be persecuted. He died for us, ___ ONCE only.
http://wjz.com/national/cigna.transplant.sarkisyan.2.617472.html
again, ask these guys, what would Jesus do?
I'm tellin you, the evangelicals had it right all along, we need more Jesus in our political world. He's pro workers, anti-imperialist, pro-peace, anti-greed/excess, and anti-corperate by his very nature.
Nothing has changed, hakori, unless you mean your partner's mind.
Isn't Huckabee a Rolling Stones fan? Oh please someone attending a Q&A with Huck ask him if he will have Sympathy for the Devil if elected!! Remind him that after all, it's you and me! Him and all his followers should wake up and smell the hypocrisy.
SAILA, I do believe you have the Huxter-tobee pegged. That's him. You also cracked me up with your appropriate disartation.
O ROE, I don't have a clue of what discussion the other day you are referring to, and to take one sentence and use that out of context to what ANY may write, is exactly how the Karl Rove type do.
So for you to blast me for whatever it was you may think I believe due to a single comment, is pretty sorry of you. I'm not exactly young BTW, I'm in my seventies and have been around the block a few times. And no, I don't like everyone in the world, ___do you?
I wish I could, I wish we humans ALL loved one another and didn't find it necessary to have dividing borders. Perhaps you can find somethng shitty to say about that opinion? Don't start any crap here Okay, we don't need it.
I notice that during the past month, there are a lot of new trolls here, attempting to start shit fights.
What is any theistic religion, really, but a construct of conceptualizations based on the individual and hence collective fear of facing one's own inner divinity? There's a great mountain of obscurations and negative emotional propensities for us all to transform and purify within ourselves before we can realize the nature of the vast sun that burns ever so brightly in us all. The truth of the great love and compassion we're all capable of us is very frightening to those ever so attached to their anger, their hatred, their greed, their pride as a result of some sense of entitlement or attachment to some ever-changing "self" (how can this "self" be ultimately real when it's always in a state of change?). Much easier to create a belief in some external deity so we can feel somehow "special" or "chosen" rather than bringing ourselves to a state of pure love and compassion, what Christ was, what Buddha was, what Quetzalcoatl was, what Krishna was, what Padmasambhava was, what Suzuki Roshi was, what Satchidenanda was, among many others of all different traditions and faiths, and what we can all be too with enough effort, humility, generosity, virtue, dedication, perseverance, the patient willingness to sacrifice ourselves for the happiness of others, not to mention wisdom.
The trouble is the general human condition is ignorance, ignorance mainly to do with the belief that all this world is somehow permanent and fixed, that it can be somehow a source for ever-lasting wealth and power, and that somehow these can provide any kind of ultimate happiness. What does not pass away? Rather than face this truth and the truth of our nature as infinitely pure love and compassion, into which the "self" ultimately dissolves, much better to cloak oneself in the concept of an external deity that will somehow protect oneself from the repercussions of whatever negative actions undertaken in the name of whatever supposed external deity. Herein lies the very definition of human folly, in how the madness of "holy" wars only lead to more of the same endlessly into the future.
As long as what predominates in the human condition is ignorance of our great compassionate and loving nature, there will arise systems of belief, of dogma and doctrine, that will be pitted against each other. We can either decry this reality endlessly and end up feeding all the anger and hostility out there with our own, or we can set about the business of simply cultivating love and compassion in ourselves, no matter if we're Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, Native American or whatever.
So much of the talk above is simply feeding this reality that many of us wish weren't there. Christ said "Love your enemy," Buddha said that our best friends are our enemies, for without them how else would we be able to generate great love and compassion? When we can bow to our enemies as though they were our very own Mother, then we can begin to starve the beast of religious fascism lurking in the world, because we have begun to starve (i.e. transform) the many beasts of our demons within into the angels they really are.
The "Kingdom of Heaven" is right at our fingertips, and love and compassion are its king and queen.
MikeBinSC --
I agree, Carter is not like the evangelical fundamentalists. My point was historical. Carter unwittingly breathed life into this monster when they helped put him in office. They were almost immediately disappointed by him when they realized he wasn't their stooge. But the fact remains that the evangelicals came to life as a political entity during Carter.
good for you SallyUUKent. xians demand respect for their religon and they are in the majority here in the US, but don't respect non-xains enough to not push their dogma at us.
Hakori,
The Christ that the evangelicals sell is a cheap immitation. It's too bad that you've been subjected to their treatement.
Real Christians are accepting, tolerant, and do not judge. And they do exist. Unfortunately, they are hard to hear over all of the noise created by the radical right.
Your own relationship with Christ is all that matters, regardless of what you hear. The real Christ loves you for what you are, and to an extent that you cannot comprehend. Don't worry.
Shalom.
whats the matter with you people. don't you know god and jesus are just pretend! and, your vote hasn't counted for 7+ years, why would you think it will count next year.
WoW, religous lunacy rules over the usa. don't you people know that god and jesus are just pretend. have any of you ever really thought about what you believe. no wonder the usa is so deadly and chaotic. you people are insane. there is no god, no jesus. there is just this earth and the life on it. you are doing your best to kill and destroy everything. and your doing a good job of that.
I have had one of the most umpleasant experiences of my life, and it centers around the rabid brand of intolerant christianity that so many of evangelicals are a part of. First of all, I am not grouping all people of faith into the band of bigots that scream so loudly in our country. I know many Christians who are open minded, tolerant and loving. But the hate these right-wing bigots have for anyone different was thrust to the surface on Christmas day.
I'm a gay man who has been in a loving monogamous relationship for nine years. My partner's mother is completely accepting. His father less so, but he usually knows when to just be quiet. We thought his brother was accepting until he unleashed his rage on Christmas day. My partner was told by his loving brother he was disgusting, an aberration, a disgrace to his family, not a real man and that his parents biggest regret on their deathbeds was that my love was ever born. In the nine years we've been together he has never asked his parents for a cent. But the real man has taken tens of thousands. Big bro says our my love has no family, and he'd be better off alone than living an abominable lifestyle. It is my understanding that he wasn't always like this. He was once, at least on the surface, accepting, but he married a woman who is controlling and manipulative as well as a hypocrite. She condems abortion although she's had two herself. She pretends to take the moral highground while she spews hate against gays, which include not only her brother in-law but her very own sister as well. My love was told by this hateful woman she didn't want her children exposed to "that" lifestyle. I suppose bringing your offspring up in a truely chosen lifestyle of hate intolernace and bigotry is more palatable to her.
If this were all that happened, it wouldn't have been so bad. It's not as if we were seeking or require the approval of a couple of bigots. But their 17 year old daughter has been brainwashed into believing the same tripe. This is a girl that my partner did feel a special connection. He actually helped raise her when his brother divorced his first wife, her mother. She lived with my partner's parents when her father and mother wanted nothing to do with her. My partner has even been saving money for her college in a CD for over ten years. He had more money in that account than he has in his own personal savings. I choke up when I think about this because he's been so proud that she was going to have this money. Now that's all changed, and it's changed because of some grotesque perversion of Christanity. These people are evil. They hide behind religion and use that religion as an excuse to hate. I truely believe they revel in that hate. It was once a mystery how such a thing as the holocaust could happen, but I understand completely now. If people are fed a constant diet of hate and intolernace, they can learn to hate their own family members. That being so, just imagine what kind of fiendish delights they can dream up for stangers.
Jesus wanted to be the President of a country or the CEO of a corporation; the Savior of Mankind was actually his third choice.
Jim Glover December 26th, 2007 12:57 pm
Excellent post, and a great point. Huck completely dodged the question. That still get's me today. And the fact that everyone fell for it and laughed, nobody questioned it. It was one of the greatest sleight of hands in the Presidential Campaign 2008.
And when the canidate won't give you a straight answer to "What would Jesus do" it means they know their answer is unpopular, and ultimately wrong- more importantly they know it's wrong.
For instance, ask them 48 million uninsured in this country "What would Jesus do?"
Ask them about the hundreds of millions of dollars of profit the Health Insurance Corperations make by denying coverage every year to suffering patients, ie their own paying members "Ask them what would Jesus do?"
follow it up with a nice, "In 2005, the CEO of BluecrossBlueshield took 20 million dollars of company money to build a golf course in his back yard. Would Jesus deny health care coverage to suffering patients, so that he could build a golf course in his back yard?" "Would Jesus claim this man 'earned' that money because he denied health care coverage to paying members."
Give the evangelicals exactly what they want. Jesus was a liberal revolutionary, working class, skeptic of power/war mongerers, and denouncer of money lovers etc.
carter walks the walk.
lpenek -
The difference between Jimmy Carter and the thugs in office now, is that Jimmy actually believed, and still does, in trying to follow the teachings of Jesus regarding human rights of all people.
believe what you like, as long as it is not detrimental to others. you do not need any faith to be a good person. this is the problem with those entrenched in their religious dogma. it's their way, or the highway. we should all recognize there are many paths to spirituality, and humanity. it is only important, that we get there. none of us are all knowing.
And all along you thought Bush was bad! Wow. This guy is absofuckinglutely nuts, the real big brother. The US better agree to destroy all its nukes before this 'domination' guy takes over, else he's going to burn the whole world, including himself, to get his rapture.
"…all those deemed insufficiently Christian will be denied citizenship."
Is he going to kick out all the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, a good portion of the American public, etc, etc, from the country?
"…he remains deeply hostile to gays."
So claim and do all those child-molesting priests as well as some bible thumping Republicans who've got caught not practicing what they preach.
I'm getting outta here.
Dominionism is bigger than it is being framed by Chris Hedges. It is a part of the fundamental structures of the various Christian Religions. There may be those Christians who state that they oppose Dominionism, but I question that they can technically be Christians and not support Dominionism. It is not just a Conservative Christian belief, but a total Christian belief. To believe otherwise to open yourselves to deceit.
Recently I crossed paths with supposed Jesus followers who were stating that they were not dominionists. A few months later they had a meeting with their national Baptist director to plan for a missionary trip to South America.
Christian non-dominion is a Trojan Horse.
Since we are gonna be confronted with the religious candidates for quite a while now, they should be persistently asked "What would Jesus do?"
Huckabee's last response to that question, I think it was about water boarding was "Jesus was too smart to run for political office!"
Since that reply was treated with great admiration of Huckabee's wit and if the press now feels that it has no right to keep asking religious politicians about What would Jesus do, then they will win the argument.
The question "What would Jesus do?" should be asked repeatedly about all important issues because that dodge of an answer is insulting to the teachings of Jesus who was not afraid to talk about the most important issues of his day. To think that Jesus who was killed from torture would not be qualified to have an opinion on his death because he was smart enough not to run for office... well do you get the point?
They don't have a clue about what Jesus was about.
Nobody ran for office back then and Jesus was a revolutionary...the Greatest of all,
So he was in effect a politician since everything is political.
Keep up the persistence with these guys with the ultimate question for any Christian Politician.. "What would Jesus do?" and watch em Squirm.
It's important to properly nail them for what they are. There are totally unscrupulous and pathological power-hungry people who merely wrap themselves the dominant paradigm of the day. Christianity today, but not so before Constantine.
It may hook into "old money". Imagine if your family wealth/land could be traced back to the Middle Ages (this is the case for many). Probably the ONLY way it could have been maintained throughought the centuries is if each generation allied itself with the dominant paradigm of the day. It's a non-principled principle. Surround yourself with powerful people and financiers, rising stars, those with the biggest guns, the arrogant elite have a monopoly on the manipulation of popular symbols: that's the principle.
If it was Wicca, state-surrogate religion or perhaps even Islam, they'd still be kissing ass. It has very little, ultimately, to do with religion -- and much more to do with the principled unprincipledness.
Armybrat said "Was it Bush I or Bush II that said atheists should be denied citizenship in the US? What about Huckabee? Does he support revoking citizenship for anyone who doesn't agree 100% with his views? Even the Evangelicals and Dominionists don't agree with one another - everyone is squabbling for his place as the main idol - each one wants to be the new Golden Calf. Isn't that great?"
It was Bush I--BEFORE he was elected President.
In response to the question "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?" he said, "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." Source:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm
I think it is particularly telling that no politicians--none that I've ever heard aside from perhaps Feingold--have taken a strong positive stance on the rights of Atheists as Americans. As long as we have this Constitutional blasphemy of "in God we trust" on our money and "One nation under God" in our pledge, nothing will change. For going on a century now we have indoctrinated the public from birth to think that our nation is a Theist one. The only way that'll ever change is by having the religious majority's rights threatened by a some religious minority. Petitioning to have "God" changed to "Allah" in the aforementioned slogans for example.
A single digit percentage of American Atheists will never have rights until they become politically allied with religious minorities' with whose rights are threatened. To that end, maybe the threat of the Xian fundamentalists is a boon.
These Christians take the step of humans domintion over all other plants and animals to Christian domination over everyone else.
Foxnews actually did some fine reporting this morning saying that the feud between Limbaugh and Huckabee is important since Rush, as they reported it, "Rush highly influences the lower middle and lower classes."
Yes, valmoreo.
Who am I to question the appropriateness of the ways my God commands me to act?
Commands me through his own historical example; commands me through his written word; commands me through our intimate and personal conversations (as interpreted by me or the religious leader of my choosing).
The all empowering God, empowering us to do as we choose; and forgiving us as well if we don't get it quite the way he intended.
It is, chessgames56.
Yes, terryb.
How convenient and irresponsible it would be if every time I had a desire to do something I had a belief that required me to do it and if every time I had a desire not to do something I had a belief that required me not to do it; convenient, irresponsible and obscene.
Someone said that there is a mystery at the core of belief in Christ (not to say Xtianity) and that Evangelicals(and others) have corrupted and betrayed this mystery. I agree with this absolutely.
I also believe that it is God who should ask forgiveness of us and that,in fact, in a dark and mysterious way, God has always asked forgiveness by always having been a weak force, a weak power.....nothing to worry about or to contend with. The much touted God of power and might is the power and might that humans(men?) like to use against one another. Biblical literalists feed off the Bible like leaches because it enhances their strength and power and makes them feel like gods.
There is hope however!
anyone who is an absolutist in their beliefs, is someone that should be held in suspect. the reality on whether or not there is a higher power, is that we, as mere mortals, are all ignorant in that regard. when we as a species, accept that FACT, then there will truly be some hope for humanity. until that day, we will continue to spin our wheels. there is nothing wrong with faith, but we have to deal with reality here on the ground. it's obvious to me, and many others, that we are on our own to solve our problems. if your waiting for divine intervention, you are failing your fellow man.
"If there is a God he owes the world an apology."
Hoa binh
Perhaps it is man who owes "God" an apology for twisting His/Her/Its essence to suit whatever egoic demands control him at the moment. Though we must entertain the notion that "God" may be indifferent to what we choose, since the consequences for any choice--that deriving from either Thy Will, or my will--are already set in place. Enlightenment spreads the Light, while egotism increases [the density of] the darkness. It really may be as complicated or simple as that.
The tempter took Jesus to a high place and offered him all of the kingdoms of the World, if only Jesus would acknowledge him. Jesus refused. His remit was to serve, not to rule.
From Constantine the Great onwards, the church has fallen into the great bear trap that Jesus himself refused to walk into. God himself will build his own kingdom - but on the other side of death. Not here.
Satan is the great dominionist - not Jesus.
If there is a God he owes the world an apology.
Hoa binh
As chimpeach said "It's alive! It's alive!" The GOP gave birth to this monster and now it's coming back with both hands to strangle Dr. Frank. Oh well, hey good luck there bud, if I can do anything for ya...
Another pop quiz: Who started the evangelical movement into politics? Would you believe it was Jimmy Carter? Yep. People forget so fast. In 1975 nobody had even heard the expression "born again." When Carter said that his relation to Christ was the most important thing in his life the entire press corp. dropped its collective jaw. The Christian "Right" only forged its ties with the Republicans in the 80's during Reagan. How time flies like an arrow.
And then there's this article by Sally Quinn over at TruthOut -
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/122507F.shtml
Here is a short exerpt -
On Dec. 11, H.R. 847 was passed in the House of Representatives. Just listen to what our lawmakers have resolved:
"Whereas Christmas, a holiday of great significance to Americans," it begins, "is celebrated annually by Christians throughout the United States...." It goes on to state, among other things, that "Christianity [is] the religion of over three-fourths of the American population," that "American Christians observe Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of their savior, Jesus Christ," and that "Christmas is celebrated as a recognition of God's redemption, mercy, and Grace."
"Now, therefore be it Resolved, that the House of Representatives ... expresses continued support for Christians in the United States ... acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States ... rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and expresses its deepest respect to American Christians."
For brevity, I have omitted the resolution's references to Christianity around the world.
This resolution passed with 195 Democratic yea votes, 177 Republican yeas and nine Democratic nays. No Republicans voted against it. Ten House members voted "present." Forty were not there, including the bill's sponsor, Rep. Steve King of Iowa.
A church for war is a fallen church.
A pastor for war is a heretic.
Sally, mad sick wrong about Germany, in Dusselsorf now, they are great and very understanding of the US citizens Dilemma. They are excellant with the job trainibg, education, supply healthcare and so forth. Plus Euros are crazy higher than the dollar.
Kem, you made a comment the other day about how you like certain people, yet there is a group you dislike. WTF, is this a high school clique or a discussion forum, and when did you determine that you had the right to disqualify people by what they say? Of course we may feel strongly, even disgusted by a comment but as people we learn, we learn through stupid mistakes, you've not a right in this world to openly discuss your dislike of persons whose opinions you may find greater than distasteful. You are either young or not very humane nor apathetic.
Paul substituted faith in Christ for the Christlike life.
--Walter Kaufmann (1921-1980)
If you really want to get a better understanding of what Chris is talking about in this article, you need to spend a little time visiting this site -
http://www.theocracywatch.org/
I don't know why he didn't link to it himself in the article. There's some eye-opening information there regarding Dominionists and the Republican party.
Killing in the name of God is very popular today; it will be less popular when more people see through it.
bbr-001:'much less secular' - a very plausible scenario.
Though I 'm not too sure about the 'not terrible 'bit. Germany remained stoutly Christian -right through the Nazi period .Yet look at the atrocities that it perpetrated.
PaulK: "I don't understand why Christians fight lots of wars in the name of the Prince of Peace. "
I'm not being flippant -but even Christ would have been very hard put to answer that one.Its perhaps a fact of Nature -much like the carnivores preying on weaker animals.
"Curiously, the group suffering the most in Baghdad has been the Christians.'
So very true. But America's Christian Fundamentalists clearly don't care a fig for the Iraqi Christians -or for Christians elsewhere ,for that matter.
Does faith get you high? Way into the stratosphere? Cool. Enjoy. Is faith a social club for you? It makes you happy to greet other people? Good. It'll help you grow. Does faith keep you from the drugs or from the bottle? Excellent. Please continue with a successful struggle up. Does it personally feel good to ladle the mashed potatoes and cheese onto plates at the soup kitchen? Does personally volunteering give you a warm fuzzy feeling? Be happy.
The Christian right are stoned on faith, love parties, struggle with their personal demons and volunteer personally. They also tend to pull their voting levers in favor of an increased racial opportunity gap based on skin color. Can't black people be Christian too? They vote in favor of historically high prison populations, like million-man slave camps, and wildly black inside the jails. They favor buying goods made by Chinese Christian political prisoners because the goods are so cheap. I think right wing American Christians usually read the story of Lazarus and the rich man, then gloss right over their voting habits.
They vote in favor of ineffective health care and fake educations for the poor. I should ask them why. Is it because, out of fear of Godless liberals, they keep their brains in the dark and so they never read mainstream opinions?
These Christians tend to kill murderers, including the mentally insane. They kill people like Tookie Williams who turn their lives around in prison, become genuine Christians themselves and try to stop the violence until the very minute of their execution.
I don't understand why Christians fight lots of wars in the name of the Prince of Peace. Curiously, the group suffering the most in Baghdad has been the Christians.
The Republican Christian politicians have a problem with "Thou shalt not steal." So do most of the Democrats, but they're not quite as blatant. If the Republicans don't steal, they don't take the elections. Huckabee as a Christian thinks nothing of payoffs. Worse, I've never heard anyone as a Christian object to the fact that the 2000 election was stolen in Florida and the 2004 election was stolen in Ohio.
dear bbr, you think hillary is not totally in the hands of the neocons?
dear god i hope it is not a choice of a republican or hillary
I still think think Huckabee has a progressive side and won't follow the neocon formula for every decision. (When is George Will gonna start worrying about how Bush and the neocons have ruined the Republican Party?) He seems a good guy, but I don't plan on giving him the chance. Nothing is clear about his position on global warming. He may believe its in God's hands. He basically supports the colonization of Iraq. I'm voting for the democrat, even if its Hillary. Just to make sure we have at lest a 4 year recess from the neocons in the White House pulling strings every day.
RJKT: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Once upon a time in Spain, the Jews and Moslems were allies to protect themselves from the Christians of that era. Needless to say, the crackdown on non-Christians ruined a remarkable cultural and very tolerant era. Instead of the Holy Roman Empire, it will be the Holy Roller Empire.
Laws to protect harassment including non-Christians would probably continue to exist, but abortion would be outlawed period. There would be a return of the Lord's Prayer before school, the 10 commandments posted in any public place financed by publc money, more public money for (christian only) parochial schools, maybe even Sunday business closure "Blue Laws" would return.... It might be difficult for a non-Christian or even a Christian of the wrong denomination to hold public office. No more Rum, Romanism and Rebellion! Not terrible, but much less secular.
miftin: You got it! Just like the Pharisee lawyers, Hannity, O'Reilly and Rush would be lining up to match wits with this "Liberal"!
People thought George W Bush was a genial nice guy too.
Huckabee is a fiscal populist, true, which the corporations and fiscal conservatives won't like. Arkansan's tax burden doubled under him, but he spent it on social programs, not the rich, unlike George. He thinks the world is 6,000 years old, and is hostile to science, says he prefers to trust God, which never changes. He did help himself and his family to the $60,000 yearly mansion maintenance fund for personal use, and he did order the government computer hard drives wiped and then crushed when he left office, costing the state taxpayers $335,000 to replace them. One does wonder why he did that. That's all we need is more secrecy.
If Jesus were to come today, they wouldn't even crucify him. They would invite him to dinner, listen to what he has to say, then make fun of it.
Should this Christian 'Ramrajya' ( Rule of Rama ) ever come to pass , what would be the fate of non Christians of different ethnicities.
Would they fall victim to the next Holocaust. Or would they be at the receiving end of subtler forms of oppression.
kem patrick
"Preacher Huckabee is a flaming Bush, only worse, because Huckabee isn't stupid. We don't need any more Bushes thank you, especially one who has a brain and can sling bullshit without having to read a script written by Cheney or Rove. Believe it or not, Huckabee in the White House, could make Bush look pretty good. ___Damn! ___ Think of that"
i would agree if you said guiliani would make bush look good. he is equally if not more beholden to neocons and equally stupid on international issues. and also has no guiding ethics, whatever gets him elected.
i just don't see huckabee as evil, hopefully time won't tell. but i think it is a foolish strategy for the left to get as excited about huckabee as i see here. it's asking for the likes of giuliani to win. and for neocons to continue running the white house. the republicans who are pulling the strings will not let huckabee get anywhere. so why help them. at least let them use up some of their resources instead of doing their job for them
dreamertoo, nice thoughts. merry christmas.
We need to hold the political churches accountable for being political and tax exempt. Under law, they can't have both.
Send complaints to the IRS.
God is no longer dead; in the absence of love and understanding God is simply unrecognizable.
It isn't Christians who need to be reborn now, but Christ himself; I wish he was born again today, the brother he once was to everyone.
Christmas is celebrated throughout the world today as the holiday of joy; it's an opportunity to rekindle happiness that may have somehow been extinguished, a chance to stoke fires of excitement and expectation already burning; its celebration is not limited to the physical or spiritual, its pleasure extends beyond the mind and heart; it's an opportunity to give a wish of well-being to others; all others. I hope each of you will find a moment today to give a wish of happiness and joy to everyone everywhere. The world is no bigger than your heart.
EileenFleming, thank you so much for posting that. One of the best presents I could have recieved today...Beautiful...
KEM PATRICK,221 p.m., well said.
WRITER 2. "Most posters here sound like Dittoheads from the left."
Thank you for the compliment, I've been named much worse at times here at CD. What does left mean to you? __ What does right mean to you? __ How about no political labels, __ what do 'common sense' and honest observations, based upon 'facts' mean to you?
Preacher Huckabee is a flaming Bush, only worse, because Huckabee isn't stupid. We don't need any more Bushes thank you, especially one who has a brain and can sling bullshit without having to read a script written by Cheney or Rove. Believe it or not, Huckabee in the White House, could make Bush look pretty good. ___Damn! ___ Think of that WRITER 2.
So Chris Hedges has it right, it isn't fear mongering Hedges is writing, it's Common Sense and the truth. The only reason Huckabee being a minister is scary, is because those guys mostly know how to lie so well while smiling. They know how to get into peoples wallets, twist the truth, change the subject and talk so smooooothly, just like professional con artists, it's difficult for many to detect their lies.
The problem is, the leaders of the two political gangs in power right now, are all scary. Which is the least scary is about the best we can hope for at this point in time.
People like you, who bash people like Chris Hedges, are far worse than Dittoheads. If we had a president who had the honesty, intellect and common sense that Chris Hedges and many of the posters here display, we wouldn't be on the brink of a depresion and owe our asses to China.
Huckabee would continue speeding down the Primrose Path that Bush is driving us on. ___ Woefully, those "Mission Accomplished" roses, have begun to look and smell like funeral lillies.
Irish,
"I guess I qualify as a Dominionist, even though that title really belongs in the Protestant camp of the Reconstructionists. I believe that God sent His Son to save this world and to bring to us the peace of being like His Son as His disciples. In order for there to be followers, there must be teaches. In order for there to be Law, there must be rulers. What Law shall we follow?
I have no problem with the concept of the Social Reign of Christ over the nations. I have no problem with nations founded upon the Law which Jesus both taught and upheld, for properly understood, that Law is based in Love.
Thus, under a truly Christian society, we would not be raping the land for the benefit of the few, we would not plunder our neighbors so that the few could prosper, we would do due diligence to mind our own business in such matters.
War hopefully would become an extreme rarity, and hopefully those who pledged allegiance to the teachings of Christ through His Church would submit all problems to the Holy Father for final jurisdiction, swearing to abide by the final decision, even if it didn't go their way."
The social reign of Christ is alien to Dominionism; unfortunately, few Catholics know the social magisterium, and are far too inclined to read Church documents through the eyes of anglo-authoritarians rather than with the history of the past century & the gospel in mind.
The the Protestant fascisti succeed with the help of Catholic collaborators, Catholic churches would be on the hit list, along with any sort of pagan, any sort of non-theist, and any sort of Muslim, because to them, Catholic faith is as much a form of idolatry and disoebdience as any.
The Christ of Mike Huckabee & his allies is just another Aryan Christ, an Ameri-Jesus, the epigone of the national murderous arrogance.
"Huckabee has displayed a perfectly abhorrent enthusiasm for State-sanctioned bloodshed: It was Huckabee who insisted that although the Iraq war was misbegotten, the "honor" of the government requires that the killing continue for the indefinite future. Just this morning (December 19), Huckabee expressed the view that Washington has used "underwhelming" force in Iraq, when victory requires overkill.
Huckster et al believe the necons did not do a good enough job.
Oscar expressed the real danger. People wanting to be "led by him to a kinder gentler country". Our leaders are supposed to be our servants. We are not supposed to be led by them, they are supposed to carry out our will. Without that, we have no democracy. I fear that too many people want to give up their freedom to feel protected. Won't work. They will end up with neither.
If after 9/11, 90% of the country really did approve of Bush (which I still find unbelievable), then 90% of Americans when threatened, want to give up their freedom to feel protected. How many Representatives signed the Patriot Act without reading it?
most posters here sound like dittoheads from the left. chris hedges is frightening with silly fear talk from the left just as rightwing radio frightens their dittoheads of hillary clinton as being a scary socialist.
it just doesn't make sense that after the neocons have killed and rampaged in iraq, let israel kill and rampage among the palestinians and lebanon that the big fear for the left should be huckabee.
how can one think the danger for the US comes from huckabee?
dreamertoo, wouldn't it be way more effective, if god himself made an appearance?
Zero point
"Oryx and Crake"
I read that too, great book. You can see how a scenario like that is the terminal outcome of the corporate mentality which says everything is permitted in the name of commerce and profit.
Pop Quiz:
What was the name and date of the two on horseback in this true story from history:
During the crusades, european armies were sent on horseback to Jerusalem to search for the holy relics and convert everyone in their path. Upon encountering a peaceful city half christian and half muslim the General of this particular army asked the Bishop at his side what he should do. The bishop leaned over and remarked: "Kill them all, for god knoweth them that are his."
CHRIST IN ISLÂM BY REV. JAMES ROBSON, M.A., LECTURER IN ARABIC, GLASGOW UNIVERSITY
"WHEN Mohammad established Islâm in Arabia he insisted that he was not proclaiming a new religion, for he believed that all the prophets who preceded him had brought the same message. From time to time God had sent prophets and had revealed His will in sacred books; but men were rebellious, and so it was necessary for Him periodically to send a new prophet to lead them back to the truth. Mohammad had no sense of any gradual development in the knowledge of God, for he held that a knowledge of the true religion had been given to man from the beginning. The reason why God needed to send prophets with fresh revelations was because men had fallen away from the truth and required to be called back to it. Thus men like Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and himself had all the same task set before them, and none of them was essentially different from any other. God might authorise one to abrogate certain practices which had been commanded by a predecessor, but in essential matters they were all engaged in the same task, which was to proclaim the unity of God and summon men to worship Him alone."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/cii/cii.htm#INTRODUCTION
Why are so many people so Islamophobic today?
How does loving God become hating humanity?
"each one wants to be the new Golden Calf"
Says it all, armybrat!
As 18th-Century British satirist John Arbuthnot once said, "All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies."
let's hear it for tommy douglas. one of my heros, and i'm an atheist.
Andrew Cockburn, ever the contrarian has some interesting things to say about Huckabee whose governing record was in fact much to the left of the Clintons!
And the whole thing about him being a baptist minister as some sort of disqualification misses a very important historical fact. There indeed was another baptist minister who brought forth on this continent its first socialist government -- Tommy Douglas in Saskatchewan, also father of the Canadian healthcare system.
Now, evangelicalism has traveled a long way since then, and Huckabee is just some small time politician in comparison, but Liberals should be wary of demonizing him, especially if Hillary wins the nomination. In a contest between Huckabee, Hillary and Hell, I think a plurality of Americans would choose the third option.
Irish, seems to me that people with your ideas are the PROBLEM, NOT THE SOLUTION.
I do NOT want to have your religious crap shoved down my throat. Religion is the reason we have so many problems now.
PLEASE...keep your religion to yourself. If you wish to believe, that is fine...for YOU. I have no wish to believe, no wish to be a christian, no desire to follow what YOU think is the way.
If you are entitled to your beliefs then so am I and every other person. Keep your religion in your home and your church. Your beliefs have no business in the public sphere. It is YOUR business, NOT mine or anyone else.
Christianity is bad news for the Republican's! I could have told them 30 years ago they were siring a monster that would one day devour their party alive. All religions are the same in that respect. Give one of them a inch and they will take a mile every time. Once they have tasted a little power they start letting it corrupt them. They loose all of their high flown moral's and start playing dirty!They have gotten so far away from what Christianity is suppose to represent a lot of us no longer have an ounce of respect for them. They are the type of people who are willing to sell their ideals for a little political power. They are the ones who put a criminal in the White House twice and made certain he stayed there to ravage the country. There isn't anyway they could not have known the second time around just how much of a criminal George W Bush was. But, did it bother any of them to vote him back into office??? No! Because Christianity doesn't have many principle's these days. Given half a chance they will do the same thing again with Huckabee. These people are like a millstone around the Republican party's neck. They will destroy their party if they don't do something to save it. The Democrat's are having to live with the liberal label. The Republican's had better get used to the 'fringe lunatics' label. Because they are being controlled by a bunch of Christian fascist's I wouldn't wish off on my worst enemy.
Oh, but Merry Christmas anyway. It's always a pleasure to read all your posts. Good to know you folks are out there.
Let's all hope for a, well, hopeful New Year. You never know. In any case, it will be an adventure (which are always more fun to read about than be in).
The Founders whole purpose was to separate the power of politics from that of hereditary aristocracy, religion and corporate entities.
The only way to preserve the Republic is to keep religion and corporations in check.
We're losing.
Can't blame the right wing fundies for being ticked off about being used by the cynical neocons. I remember a story about how White House staffers would split their sides laughing at memos, etc from Pat Robertson and others.
While Huckabee wears his faith on his sleeve, he seems to be tolerant and reverent of other faiths. He doesn't seem to be the standard bearer for those far right wing "Christian" loonies that want to institute a Christian version of sharia law.
I also think these people are a small minority nationally, even within the Baptists. Most or all Protestant denominations are completely opposed to this world view. Living in SE PA, there are Presbyterians, Reformed, UCC, Quakers, Mennonites, Lutherans, Mrthodists, Anglicans... none of which buy into a turning the US into a theocracy. Neither do the Catholics. The history of the Reformation tells us that when Christianity becomes a source of political power, it becomes a source of corruption and abuse. Huckabee seems to respect that.
Merry Christmas
kelmer
You are right. Dominionism R Us. If the militant evangelicals didn't practice it, some other arrogant nabobs would come along with their agenda for us all.
Dominionism is the source of our sense of entitlement to take things that don't belong to us and use rabbits for target practice. It is deeply ingrained in the human experience, an unfortunate side effect of cognition. Thinking long term, we need to do more looking in mirrors.
If you ask me, ALL religion is a mental disorder. No, this does not automatically make me an atheist, so put down your christian pitch forks and burning crosses. But it does makes me a realist. Religion has been used for millennia as a means for politicians and priests to control the weak-minded in society: and boy does it work! There's no scam in the world like telling little old "church ladies" to give money to save souls and then, turn around and slip it into shrub's "faith based initiatives" to buy weapons for the enemy to cook up a fake war. Most of the wars and death in this century were cause by Christian and Jew money.
You cannot have democracy if you ignore the founding father's warnings not to mix church and state.
And homosexuals? You want to talk about homosexuals?
I suggest you call the Republican Congress if you want to get some fag's real-world opinion about homosexuality (Pat Foley, Larry Craig, et al) or call the Catholic Church (too many gay priests to list here.)
It seems like every time you put an old man in a robe and tell the congregation of sheep that this phuck is talking to God, the next thing you know your kid has got white stains on his baptism gown and bombs start falling on innocent civilians in some "Godless" country.
Christianity is evil. If you're going to practice it, do it in a closet with your priest and some KY jelly because we don't want it phucking up our government anymore.
It has no place in government.
pacplyer
pacplyer
I live in a conservative part of the country, a state that has had only one Democratic governor in its entire history, and I agree completely with MIFTIN, the domination of the Radical Right wing arm of religion is complete here. People can't even imagine Jesus being loving, tolerant, and teaching peace. The first 400 years of martyrdom for Christianity continues today in these people's minds. They think it is people not wanting to give up their idolatry, rather than a religion that is in radical opposition to heirarchy and military domination.
Quite a few locals have friends or relatives in the military and there's a statue of the Ten Commandments standing out in front of the courthouse. There must be 150 local churches and every one of them, except the UU, is some variety of Christian fascist.
Every few days the newspaper prints a reader's letter talking about how God caused Katrina or 9/11 because of this nation's promotion of homosexuality, or how the U.S. is doing God's will in the world and people who criticize Christians should be ashamed of themselves because they are demoralizing the troops....etc.
Sometimes I wonder how many posters to this CD forum actually live in areas like this, or how many live in San Francisco or Madison or Austin or Burlington, VT where they don't actually feel the repression on a daily basis and have to live with it constantly.
Namesakes and professing isn't much. One is who he is based on his actions. There are those who worship the bank and market, government power, and on the battlefield.
Prior to Constantine Christianity was a rebel's religion, a Mystery religion, subversive and persecuted. Since it became the religion of Empire it has reversed roles.
It first subjugated the indigenous Europeans, forced them off away from their old gods -- observed for untold centu