Iraq Rejects Permanent US Bases: Adviser
BAGHDAD - Iraq will never allow the United States to have permanent military bases on its soil, the government’s national security adviser said.
“We need the United States in our war against terrorism, we need them to guard our border sometimes, we need them for economic support and we need them for diplomatic and political support,” Mowaffaq al-Rubaie said.
“But I say one thing, permanent forces or bases in Iraq for any foreign forces is a red line that cannot be accepted by any nationalist Iraqi,” he told Dubai-based al Arabiya television in an interview broadcast late on Monday.
His comments were the clearest sign yet that Iraq’s leaders are looking ahead to the days when they have full responsibility for its defense.
The United States has around 160,000 troops in Iraq, officially under a United Nations mandate enacted after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.
Iraq formally asked the United Nations on Monday to renew that mandate for a year until the end of 2008. It made clear it would not extend the mandate beyond next year and the mandate could be revoked sooner at Iraq’s request.
President George W. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki signed a declaration of principles last month agreeing to friendly long-term ties. Arrangements for U.S. troops to stay beyond next year will be negotiated in early 2008.
Iraq has become less violent in recent months after Bush sent an extra 30,000 troops. Washington intends to reduce its force by more than 20,000 by June 2008 and is expected to decide in March on force levels beyond that date.
FULLY DEPLOYED
The total number of attacks has fallen 60 percent since June when the additional U.S. troops became fully deployed.
In a statement, the U.S. military said the number of mortar and rocket attacks in Baghdad fell by nearly half last month, to 25 in November from 49 in October.
But U.S. commanders say al Qaeda Sunni Arab militants remain a serious threat, especially in the north of the country.
A suicide car bomber killed one U.S. soldier and wounded two others on Monday in Salahuddin province north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said. Last week an al Qaeda-linked group threatened a wave of new attacks.
Nearly 3,900 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq since 2003.
A suicide car bomb exploded on Tuesday at a checkpoint in a heavily guarded west Baghdad neighborhood near the homes of former interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and the leader of a small Sunni Arab party.
Two people were killed and 12 wounded. Neither politician was at his home.
The head of Iraq’s largest mental hospital was killed by gunmen in a drive-by shooting late on Monday, the latest in a wave of attacks on medical experts that has caused an exodus of doctors.
(Additional reporting by Mussab Al-Khairalla, Dean Yates, Aseel Kami and Aws Qusay in Baghdad and Claudia Parsons in New York)
(Editing by Ibon Villelabeitia)
© 2007 Reuters
He’s probably just saying that to keep the Iraq resistance movement off of his back and because that’s what US intelligence told him to say.
The USA goverment has proven time and time again that they can’t be trusted, nor can the governments that trust them. Clearly they want to colonize Iraq.
As is typical with the corporate press, this article doesn’t mention that the invasion was justified with lies. It mentioned the # of u.s. soldiers killed, without mentioning the estimated 1 million Iraqis who’ve been killed, or the hundreds of thousands who’ve been crippled. Another thing that would be nice to see is mention being made of the # of Iraqi doors that get kicked down every night. Last time I heard it was around 900.
The good news just keeps commin…no Complaint from me.
Mowaffaq al-Rubaie will be panhandling on a corner by the end of the week.
As an aside, he said we need the [US] for economic support and we need them for diplomatic and political support…
Economic support? A country that we were told would be using oil revenues to pay for the GWOT? Maybe the Iraqis are playing smart and using the US, rather than vice versa?
I guess they will turn that embassy they just opened into a Disney theme park.
The bush admin won’t listen to the demands of it’s 51st state, Iraq. how dare they want us off after we so kindly “liberated” them?
Perhaps there are some diplomats of stout standing still left. I agree Jim Glover, this seems like good news.
Peace,
Ken Hausle
Charlotte, NC
Depends on what ‘permanent’ means. Could mean “close all bases sometime before the sun goes nova.”
2008. Yeah right.
The bushes do not care what Iraq wants. Just as BP did not care what Iran wanted when they tried to overthrow an elected government in the 1950’s, (eventually overthrown with the CIA’s help)
As long as there is oil in the middle east and the USA wants it, we will be there exploiting the resources.
Just more Republican spin that can’t be believed. It gets nauseating the depths this bunch with sink too. It sounds like someone’s dream.
Oops! Don’t look now Iraq, but what’s that large building in the green zone? (Hint: it’s not a WalMart)
“…al-Maliki signed a declaration of principles last month agreeing to friendly long-term ties. Arrangements for U.S. troops to stay beyond next year will be negotiated in early 2008.”
Sure, the ‘Principles’ agreed it was best-discussed after election-here…
Neither Party here wants ‘too much focus’ on long-term, cross-aisle Plans for further-adventures in the ME/Caspian.
” ‘Permanent’, of course-not — see that Ziggurat over there, and Ur? They weren’t ‘permanent’, either.”
Am I to believe that the US gives a crap about what the Iraqi government or it’s people desire? Last I heard, the embassy there is a billion dollar behemoth that makes Hussein’s former palace look like a log cabin. Well, maybe they will turn it into a ME Disney World as another way to extract the Iraqi peoples resources and condition them to believe they really live in La La Land. There goes another billion dollars of our childrens future down the tubes. Is there no end to the waste and fraud being perpetrated by this administration?
Does anyone really think that with Hilary or Obama that the gravy train for U.S. companies in the Middle East will end?
“The United States has around 160,000 troops in Iraq”
Not to mention the 100,000+ trigger-happy, steroided, gang-raping ‘contractors’ that are winning hearts and minds everywhere.
WILLYBILL__Don`t worry about what those bases and the biggest embassy in the world are costing us. As long as the Japanese and Chinese are financing it and our dollar is losing value so fast it may become worthless, it won`t cost anything. How can you beat that, all of those goodies over there for nothing. Bush is really a financial genius and is not appreciated enough.
What about the largest embassy in the world and those PSAs?
And (dreaming here) will the Bush administration pay for the construction already completed on those bases no longer to be permanent and that embassy from their own personal wealth instead of with taxpayer money since they didn’t get Iraqi or US Congressional permission to build the damn things? That was an expression of utter contempt for both the Iraqis and Americans.
The so-called surge is only “working” because the US military is acting as the local police force. There is now no pretense that Iraqi police forces can maintain the local imperial order.
Second, the US military is using the cordon sanitaire method of imperial control. This is visually apparent when observing the huge cement walls surrounding “dangerous” Baghdad neighborhoods. Of course, the walls have checkpoints operated by US military personnel.
These military policemen have to scan each Iraqi’s documents, eyes and/or fingerprints to ensure the “right” citizen is entering or exiting the “right” detention center…oops…I mean neighborhood.
How long does anyone believe the above situation can be sustained…especially when the formal Shi’ite dominated government has made no moves toward establishing a national unity government nor toward legalizing US/UK corporate control over Iraqi oil assets?
Last, the Iraqiinfrastructure is still in ruins and doesn’t function for the majority; repairing or rebuilding Iraq’s infrastructure will take years to complete. However, the surge’s method of operation doesn’t allow for the efficient movement of materiel, personnel, etc. needed to start this process.
The “surge” is essentially a political act for internal US consumption. The present rulers want to reestablish their reality which is: properly applied military force can solve all diplomatic and social problems. This is especially true for any form of urban terrorism.
Of course, Iraq’s landscape is also being prepared for those institutions that will supposedly solve Iraq’s economic and infrastructural problems: US corporations.
And that is the rub. How can the US and Iraqi elite establish a good business climate while continuing to place most of Iraq under a lockdown?
Thar’s the blood of a million Irqais in them thar gas tanks.
Iraqis don’t want permenant bases in Iraq. Americans don’t either. Unfortunately the decider does.
www.pollingreport.com
On Iraq…
74% of people expect US troops to be out in less than two years…
Are people that freakin oblivious!!!
We’re in Iraq for 30+ years at least untill the oil runs out.
Uh,oh. More controversy for American politics. The “goal” of Republicans was a Westernized democracy in Iraq, permanently hosting our military for regional security. If Iraqi’s are beginning to think “no” to that, perhaps Democrats in America could help us figure out exactly where that other elusive point in history can be found (the one defined by President Bush)—you know, “As soon as the job is done.”
Cuba doesn’t want gitmo, South Korea does not want permanent US Military bases, neither does Japan…
Good luck with that Iraq.
Mrs. Clinton will never tolerate those in Iraq who want us out. She blames these people for not being on their hands and knees and thanking us for all we have done for them. The new Queen of the American Empire will be even tougher than Bush in imposing America’s will in the Middle East.
Kernel December 11th, 2007 12:55 pm …No argument there. Hell, by the time all those bills come due, we and our children will all be in debtors prison run by the Rothchilds and enforced by Blackwater. I knew there had to be something behind that smirk. No one could be that obnoxious without a righteous motive. My hat is off to the Naked Emperor…whoops, I mean our handsome leader in the Armani suit. Praise Caesar! Praise Caesar!
Tony Soprano has been running the US for 40 years.
I thought that this was settled by the North South War in the early 1860s. Iraq has no right to secede.
What a load of crap. The permanent bases are already built and manned. In our entire Congress only a handful or so are demanding we get our asses out of there and some of those say, maybe in ten years or so.
It’s Korea all over again. A big difference though, in South Korea there was very little violence and we didn’t have hired, insane mercenaries, killing the civilians whenever they wnted to have some fun. We will stay in Iraq until we have our coming depression, or when all of the Arab nations stand together and toss us out.
When the day that our ability to borrow, or print money, that is totally worthless finally arrives, our troops will leave Iraq in full retreat. Then Cheney’s Green Zone “Embassy” will be torn down, until there is not a single stone atop another. And we Americans, will have no place to hide. Bush, Cheney, Rimsfeld, Pelosi, Conyers, Halliburton, etc, you insane over-educated morons, just stop and look at what you have done.
ALSO: What is not said.
It’s more peaceful because we turned security over to the (gulp) insurgents that used to shoot at us.
But there is a rif.
They get mad when we target their security forces with our air strikes be cause we think they look like bad guys.
Airpower is how we avoid casualties, but we don’t have a clue who the “bad” guy really is.
I imagine they don’t want airbases because they are tired of 17 years being bombed!!!
Is it just me, maybe I just missed it, or has there been less “live” coverage of bombings and killings in Iraq by the MSM. It is being scrolled at the bottom of whatever “news” they have on but not the actual coverage of the bombings like we had since the beginning. I guess the surge is working if people don’t see it.
Just like not covering the homecoming of the coffins of the fallen; nobody dy’n here, move along, nothing to see.
Gee, I wonder if occupation of the sacred ground of the Middle Eastern countries has anything to do with their being so PO’d. What’s our oil doing under their sand? This will never be a foreign policy that will succeed.
I just read an article about how Sadr has called off his people (Shi’ites insurgents definitely not connected to al Qaeda) to build, regroup and improve their position politically for the long haul in Iraq.
I need to correct a false perception. The author writes, “Iraq has become less violent in recent months after Bush sent an extra 30,000 troops.” There are two basic reasons why violence is down in Iraq. First, the occupiers are now working with the Sunni insurgents who were once leading the attacks on US and British forces. Switching tactics from fighting the enemy to working with the enemy reduced the intensity of the conflict. Second, there has been a sharp decline in mixed Shi’ite and Sunni neighborhoods. Ethnic-religious segregation has increased, partially removing a major source of ethnic-religious conflict.
To Kem Patrick- What possessed you to include Rep. John Conyers in your list of names of the government’s warmongers? John Conyers is a man of integrity who has done his utmost to expose the criminal theft of the 2004 presidential election. If he had the power, he would have impeached Bush, etal years ago.
On a related note
It is time we start calling Islamists by what they really are:
Right-Wing Muslims
Curtis, M. (1998). The great deception: Anglo-American power and world order. London: Pluto Press.
page 14… the US ‘inevitably sought only limited, top-down forms of democratic change that not risk upsetting the traditional structures [15] of power with which the United States has long been allied’. Thus US policy was to support ‘the basic order of … quite undemocratic societies’ and to avoid ‘populist-based change’ that might upset ‘established economic and political orders’ and open a leftist direction’.
“It is time we start calling Islamists by what they really are:
Right-Wing Muslims”
Or just conservatives.
Iraqis:
Settle your differences, nicely tell the Americans to leave, and don’t sign the PSAs. Anny’s right about that. Its your country and your oil.
I don’t think they have a choice. The only public that can reject these is the American public. And, of course, that question won’t be part of the debate—what little there is—in the presidential contest.
Sad story. Expect the bases to be built. And the shopocalypse to continue.
kelmer, I was thinking 27 buildings of bowling alleys but a Disney theme park will do. Isn’t it amazing that people are still walking around talking about others underestimating George W. Bush when all anyone has ever done is overestimate him? And saying what a genius General Petraeus is, not having heard or absorbed the unprintable thing his own superior Admiral Fallon said about him. How can we as a nation be so stupid as to still be in Iraq?
Hee hee! Hasn’t al-Maliki and other Iraqi officials learned anything from the West’s barbaric interventions in their part of the world? The US, Britain and their other lapdogs went there to reinforce white supremacy and to dominate a vital region for energy, so what makes Iraqis think arrogant Westerners are going to heed their requests?
The rebels fighting against the invaders of Iraq need to have their own surge, get a new batch of IED’s, and run the Westerners out by force. Westerners don’t respect the wishes of ANY non-whites, so the Iraqis must spill the blood of their invaders if they want to live free from under the calloused heel of white supremacy.
It’s too bad that’s the way it has to be, but one thing we all know for sure is that the Western world is relentlessly violent and will continue it’s attack on into the next century if need be.
Baghdad is like Kabul insofar as they are both stages on which US puppets perform. Neither is a seat of national power. Baghdad controls neither Basra to the south nor the Kurdish autonomous region to the north.
The level of violence has dropped because the people are all suffering from Gulf War Syndrome.
Okinawa entry continued:
Note that there are other sources that support these claims e.g. Author: Abshire, David M. Title: National security: political, military, and economic strategies in the decade ahead. New York, Published for the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace by Praeger [1963]
But wait, … this was being done in Okinawa under a secret U.N. Trusteeship in 1945 until at least the end of the U.S occupation in 1972. Some people believe that the Okinawa society is still being strongly manipulated by these powers with the help of our Nation Builders the Free Masons (who are present throughout Japan in higher education)… very nice.
But what about the murder of approximately 1/3 of the population (during The Battle(s) of Okinawa at the end of World War II), who just happen to be poor? It appears that the poorest Okinawans were cut off in the South of the Island of Okinawa and murdered by the US forces under the incompetent leadership of Simon Bolivar Buckner Jr. (a number of sources available–General MacArthur committed in his memoirs that there was mismanagement of many of the battles against the Japanese leading to high casualties) leading to high US and civilian casualties. In the north part of the Island, far fewer casualties and immediate surrender of solders and civilians as the Battle began…What? Hard to believe as other Okinawans were told to commit suicide rather than be captured, raped. abused, even “eaten” by the Americans. Was there a treaty between the Japanese and Western powers months prior to The Battle of Okinawa? Is this one of the reasons that Japan’s strongest naval force Unit#9 (#10?) left for Taiwan in January 1945 just prior to the battle starting at the end of March 1945.
Unbelievable that someone could imagine that enemy forces could be working together to solve domestic issues … until I found that a eugenics program to remove genetically inferior people [1940 National Eugenics Law: to promote sterilization of genetically inferior people Eugenics movement supported by Hiratsuka Raicho, Ichikawa Fusae] was supported for many years by the UN and the US until 1956. [”Rescission of GRI Law Number 42, 1956: an act concerning Eugenics Protection Whereas, the Act for Eugenics Protection (Act No. 42 of 1956) passed by the Legislature of the Ryukyu Islands contains measures and provisions which are not in the best interests and welfare of the Ryukyu Islands in that said Act would endanger the life and well-being of individuals by permitting medical practices without providing necessary basic medical and legal safeguards…”]. Records reveal that the poor continued to suffer, starve, and die in Okinawa throughout this early part of the US Occupation of Okinawa.
…
Well, with the Council on Foreign Relations orchestrating behind the scenes and the Office of Strategic Services taking care of business on the ground lead to the CIA (from 1947) creating one of the strongest outposts for the genocidal operations throughout Southeast Asia from the late 1940s and still in operation today; based in Okinawa–supported by the United Nations.
Today, Okinawa is known to the world as a paradise where people enjoy the longest lifespans (due to caloric restriction[starvation] under US Occupation and genocide), happy and harmonious relations (aided by cognitive dissonance and coercion), supported by post-modernist illusions.
An intellectual posed this question to me regarding the fate of Okinawa: Would it be better to know the truth or live in an illusion?
Is this to be the fate of nations with foreign bases on their soil?
Cool. Now that they’ve made THAT clear, all we need to do to wrap it all up is a criminal indictment for the Bush Crime Family for crimes against humanity and we’re ALL SET!
Oh, and educate the Lemming-like U.S. Sheeple to the fact that just because you rule here doesn’t give you “carte Blanche” to screw the world, Just the idiots here.
“But I say one thing, permanent forces or bases in Iraq for any foreign forces is a red line that cannot be accepted by any nationalist Iraqi,” he told Dubai-based al Arabiya television in an interview broadcast late on Monday.
Mr. Mowaffaq al-Rubaie is essentially telling us that Iraqis will not give up their nationalism or national laws to be replaced by WTO, “free market” predators.
The U.S. and WTO are not going to appreciate this critical analysis by the Iraqis. They’re still living in the world of “make believe”, thinking that Iraqis are incapable of unraveling their global economic marketing scam. The Iraqis decided a long time ago that the process of global economic restructuring isn’t going to work for them; that’s why the Iraqi government still hasn’t passed the “oil law” which was written by Paul Bremer and his fellow neocons.
This is only one reason why there’s no such thing as winning this war!
Hi Earthsong
Congressman Conyers is the ONLY person on this planet, who is preventing the impeachment Bill HR -333 from being put on the floor of Cogress for a vote. Cindy Sheehan took a million petitions to him for that reason and she was arrested and jailed for refusing to leave his office.
I’m sorry so many are unaware that Congressman Conyers is failing to do his sworn duty as perscribed by our Constitution.
What does this camel jockey think he’s talking about? That’s our oil he’s got his sand on and by God, we are going to take it! We’ll tell him whether or not we will have permanent bases in our 51st state, and he will just have to suck it up. God Bless America!
The above message sent to you courtesy of EXXONMOBIL, George Bush, the Dick, and the American Enterprise Institute.
They slaughtered 1 million Iraqis. Made 4.3 million refugees.
Do you think the oligarchy really cares what the Iraqi “government” or it’s people thinks?
Who is this so-called “Iraq” you’re talking about? The puppet government in the Green Zone? The only way that the United States is leaving Iraq is the same way they left Saigon, on the last helicopter off the roof of their heavily fortified “embassy.”
Don’t know what their objection is. Kosovo seems Ok with the Bondsteel Base and now they get to be independent after the KLA that we trained up and armed with links to Al Qaeda ethnically cleansed the Christians. I tell you, All Qaeda sure is useful, makes a great enemy when we need an enemy (9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan), and makes a great friend when we need help (Kosovo, Macedonia, Afghanistan).
Why did we need a base in Kosovo? Well, to protect the AMBO pipeline and Trepca mine (has oil, gold, lots of minerals). Also, it is good to have a base in the region for the coming war with Russia after we bomb Iran. But then, you probably thought we needed to be there to keep the peace. Silly.
Back to Iraq, we probably already gave Halliburton and KBR contracts to keep them supplied for the next 5 years. Ungrateful critters. How dare they not appreciate all we have done for them.
They are not military bases. They are Peace Centers for the Observation and Celebration of Pious Worshipers of Allah.
“Iraq will never allow the United States to have permanent military bases on its soil, the government’s national security adviser said.”
Good to hear this tough talk, Americans need to show some humility now after committing a huge war crime and hope to see some justice now.
We need more tough talk against freaking imperialists to put a stop to this kind of insanity.
Good luck with that.
Let’s hope they have better luck then we do with this administration.
“The total number of attacks has fallen 60 percent since June when the additional U.S. troops became fully deployed.
In a statement, the U.S. military said the number of mortar and rocket attacks in Baghdad fell by nearly half last month, to 25 in November from 49 in October.”
Another reason for the lessening of violence in certain areas, which fails to be pointed out by our diligent media, is that the targeted sects have all been killed or driven out. The “ethnic cleansing” has done it’s job, and we have brought “peace” and “democracy”. Mission Accomplished….
“We need the United States in our war against terrorism, we need them to guard our border sometimes, we need them for economic support and we need them for diplomatic and political support” In other words they have no other choice but to allow.
Okinawa December - all is not well in paradise. Okinawa is the spouse abuse capitol of Japan.
In case nobody has noticed, billions of dollars have already been spent building permanent U.S. superbases in Iraq.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/02/15/tomengelhardt/
Where do you suppose most of the money that was supposed to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure has gone?
The world can learn a lot in paradise if they dig a little under the facade.
What we see happening throughout the globalizing world has been repeated over and over again. Secret Anglo-American powers make deals with elites and intellectuals in the target nation. Move the good guys out of harms way, and attack. This removes the potential competitors from the economic field and supports the “talented” individuals to succeed in society. Then sign numerous treaties to share sovereignty with corporations and their countries with the aim to sustain a neo-serfdom for the purpose of peace as proposed by the forming United Nations in 1941: See “United Nations Documents”, 1941-1945, Royal Institute of International Affairs, London (1946).
To get to the bottom of the mysterious nature of the United Nation, one needs to investigate the role of Chatham House (www.chathamhouse.org.uk), which may be the precise location where the U.N. was founded.
The United Nations stipulated goal is to pursue peace through a scientifically designed Corporate World State. Corporations may be moving closer to a peaceful solution, but the war against people will continue and intensify.
Okinawa; You have some interesting comments about the Ryukyu Island of Okinawa. I have to take what you said about the UN and the Eugenics program and the “suicides” by many civillians in the southern part of the ‘Rock’ as gospel, as I haven’t read the documents on that situation but what you stated is quite logical, and as the saying goes, “truth tis stranger than fiction”.
During The Second World War, Japan couldn’t stop the US from bombing raids over their cities, and by 1944, the Imperial Navy was crippled, and things weren’t going too well for the Tojo gang of thugs. They knew defeat was imminant, just a matter of time, and sent envoys to various countries asking them to negotiate an “honorable surrender” with the United States. The American people were working around the clock at ‘defense’ plants, businessman were making good money, the ‘Great Depression’ seemed to be over, so…what’s a country to do?
The late Brigadier General, Herbert C. Holderidge, a West Point graduate who worked at the Pentagon durring that war, said that the businessmen wanted to keep the war going for at least another year, and I don’t have to tell you or other Common Dreamers who the politicians take their marching orders from.
Getting back to Eugenics. The Japanese were and are what some call “racist” and they had a similar program in China with the so-called inferior people as the Germans did with semetic Jews. Many of us have seen the actual film footage of the Okinawan civillians jumping off the cliff. Nothing which is considered bizarre or a conspiracy theory surprises me as the truth of the matter eventually surfaces, much to the bewilderment of society. Maybe the Imperial Government did want to rid Okinawa of ‘inferior people’.
Which leads to the two A-Bombs. The propaganda perpetuated by the Truman Administration that a “million lives” would be lost if we didn’t ‘nuke em’ worked, and the Enola Gay entered the history books. I have stated several times on CD about this event, and will sum it up by saying that the bombs were dropped to show the Russians what we are capable of, and to prevent Stalin from moving part of the Red Army east, attacking Japan on that flank. Of course Tojo surrendered soon after, but the question is, why didn’t we except the offer a year earlier?
Getting back to this article on Iraq. There have been volumns written on the “war profiteers” already.
We had war crimes trials against Japan and Germany. We are no better.
With no permanent ‘oil laws’ to legally cement the looting of the Iraq territory’s oil wealth, and now no permanent ‘military bases’ to enforce any oil law, the global corporatist Empire behind this whole ‘Vichy American’ facade of war to supposedly support Bush’s laughable ‘democracy project’ might well ask, “Where the **** is the benefit to our elite corporatist Empire, anyway?”
As David Korten quoted in his first book on “Corporations Rule the World”, “What’s the value of having power, if not to privatize wealth and externalize the negative costs?”
Peaceman, you are terribly mis-informed. I do not blame you for that, because of so many books and articles, which have been written on the subject of the atomic bombs used on Japan that are not fully accurate. The top secret documents concering that issue were not made public until the 1980s, and by that time the public was already brain washed with half truths.
Google Japan’s nuclear program and read the editorials publised by Japanese newspapers in 2003. Also the fact is, indeed there were surrender feelers put out by Japanese diplomats in late 1944, that was a ploy to have a cease fire, their military would have acceped a CONDITIONAL surrender, but only if there was no occupation, and they could retain their militry hardware, and handle any war crime cases themselves.
Their military would never have allowed their Emperor to accept the unconditional surrender drawn up at the Postdam Conference and signed by China Great Britian and us. It was just luck that Hirohito was able to get to the broadcast station the day he did announce it. The military had the palace surrounded that day and were going to have the Emperor held in house arrest. That is a confirmed fact. There was an air raid, when a B-29 flew a photo recon mission over Tokyo and some troops took cover, fearng another atomic bomb. In the confusion, the emperor was able to leave the palace and get to the radio broadcat station and anounce the surrender.
As to losing over a million of our troops, if we had been able to make a sucessful landing on their home islands, is likely a conservative number. Many are of the false impression, that because the Japanese navy and air force was pretty much destroyed, that they were helpless. That is a myth. They had 12 fully eqipped divisions, fully prepared to fight a landing and another 13 fully equipped divisions in ready reserve. They almost outnumbered our proposed landing force. Consider how bad it was at Okinawa, and we outnumbered them over four to one there and had complete control of the air.
In addition to that, the Japanese had over 3,000 suicide aircraft hidden in numerous runway caves. I have personally been in two of them. They were prepared to hit our landing fleet ships and it would have been murder for us. Many were the rocket propelled Baca bombers, which they had tested at Okinawa and we sadly discovered, it was near impossible to defend against them. They sank 31 of our ships there.
Remember, they killed more of our sailors at Okinawa by that method, than we lost during the entire war. To do so, they had to fly several hundred miles from Japan to Okinawa, that would not have been a necessity if we landed on their home islands.
Their navy also still had many submarines operating, the heavy cruiser Annapolis, that delivered the two atomic bombs to Tinnian island, was sunk by a sub as it was returning to home base. Almost all of the crew died, many eaten by sharks and or drowned, as the srviving men were in the water for four days before being spotted. Japan was beaten down, but far from helpless. It would have been a blood bath if a invasion were attempted. We were not going to allow a conditional surrender, and the final surrender document was word for word, as written at the Potsdam Conference, in spite of claims to the contrary. It was also a very fair document, everyone should read it.
I will list three, very important things that President Truman was fully aware of on May 11, 1945 and every one of them was classified top secret and only a hanful of people were aware of them at that time in history. Generals, MacArthur, Eishenhour, Lemay, admiral King etc, were not aware of them even after the war ended, they were unaware of them.
One: Google German sub U-234. Germany had been delivering uranium oxide to Japan. How much had been delivered, was NOT KNOWN by Truman and Oppenheimer. Germany could not enrich it for an atomic bomb, __ Japan could.
Two: Truman knew Japan had alresdy bombed us one time in Oregon, using an aircraft which was launched from a submersible aircraft carrier. How many of those huge subs did Japan have, was not known by Truman, or any of our intelligence agencies. Truman did know for certain, the Japanese were fully capable of bombing our cities. Did they have an atomic bomb, or were they close to having them? Truman did NOT KNOW the answer to that most serious question. He could only assume they might iondeed have them ready at any time.
Three: Truman did know that their top nuclear physicst was a friend of Albert Ensteins and Einstein said the man was one of the very best in the field of atomic energy.
Put yourself in Truman’s place during those critical months, or about 90 days, from May 11 to August 6 of 1945. You know Japan MAY have an atomic bomb now, or at any time, you are also aware that Roosevelt and yourself had been advised, that a dirty bomb was an option for use aganst the Japanese and could create great harm if used on a city, a army in the field, or against an invasion fleet.
You are aware that Japan has credible submersible submarines, which could each launch three very good bombers and were capable of bombing American cities with atomic weapons, explosive or dirty bombs. How many of those subs did Japan have operational? You don’t know the answer to that pertinant question.
Now the time comes when you must decide, if you wish to use the two atomic bombs you have ready, and some believe, the only reason two were ready for use in July of 45, was because we had the uranium we took from the German sub U-234. Our project was way behind the programed finish time.
Are you going to use them, in the hope it will convince Japan to surrender and end the war and stop the killing? __ Or, will you gamble and take a chance they don’t have atomic bombs ready and instead order an invasion, after fire bombing another 40 Japanese cities, as was General LeMay’ glorious plan. Of course that would have killed another million or so Japanese civilians and destroyed much of their 40 cities infastructures. It also just might give them time to compete their atomic weapons program and use them on our invasion fleet.
All of that information Truman was fully aware of, that informatin was highly classified and few were aware of any of it until the 1980s, had it been known, the history books would have been far different reading. The facts are unarguable in this regard, Truman made the decision to use the two bombs, the war ended and the killing stopped.
After the war ended, Truman discovered Japan had only three fully equipped I-400 class submersible submarines. One was taken to Hawaii, the other two were sunk, so the Russians would not be able to examine them.
Uninformed people have written that the Japanese subs were inferior to ours and were never a threat. ___Actually, that is another myth. When Japan surrendered, one was half way across the Pacific and had three very good dive bombers prepared to strike a target. __ What target?
The story we heard was, they were going to bomb the Panama Canal. There were over 30 extra men on that sub when it surfaced and surrendered. The cargo carried by that sub was classifed by our government and the full report was written by a naval officer, Tom O Paine. His full report is filed in The Library of Congress, to this day, it is so highly classified, it is available to no one.
Tom Paine was a submariner and a graduate nuclear scientist. He examned that sub from stem to stern for several weeks. He was in it for several days, submerged, and could operate submerged, without refueling for 37,500 nautical miles. It’s top speed was twice that of any we had. It was over 400 feet in length and had room for over 200 men. There was a mechanics deck, where they could completely overhaul an aircraft engine. Paine reported, it was a fantastic ship and decades ahead of its time and a distnct strategic threat. His essay is in the special section of the Nimitz library at Annapolis.
Paine later worked for the GE boat division and was instrumental in developing our first atomic submarines. Tom Paine was also the flight director for NASA, when we were flying the moon landing missions. He is considered to be an authority on the Japanese I-400 subs. That info is now also available on the net. Google Japanese I-400 submarines, there are many articles on the subject.
The only aircraft left that those subs carried, is now in the Smithsonian. It was capable of carrying one small atomic bomb and could fly 1,200 miles, at a cruising speed of over 300 mph. there is no question that the Japanese had some very good aircraft during WW 2. We ended up with far better ones by the end of the war, but the Japanese could have easily bombed our cities, almost any one of them, and we would not have suspected it.
Did Japan have a bomb ready, or were they close to having one? We will never know, for their nuclear facility for developing atomic bombs, was in North Korea, the Russians took it the day after Japan surrendered. Stalin knew about that program, Truman didn’t and Stalin declared war on Japan, after we dropped the second atomic bomb and insured he would have a piece of the pie. He got it and the rest is history. Korea was divided and still is, and Stalin got their secrets of the atomic bomb from Japan.
That is the flip side of the coin and the story of some reasons Truman used the atomic bombs on Japan. Time was of the essence for Truman and__for us, and for the citizens of Japan. Was it a tragedy? Indeed it was. Could it have been worse? __ Indeed, much, much worse. It’s history, but few still know the entire history, and that is a shame. History never lies, the way it is told,___ often is.
Dear Kem Patrick,
I agree … we are being manipulated.
“Peaceman, you are terribly mis-informed. I do not blame you for that, because of so many books and articles, which have been written on the subject of the atomic bombs used on Japan that are not fully accurate. The top secret documents concering that issue were not made public until the 1980s, and by that time the public was already brain washed with half truths.”
The documents released in the 80s, 90s, and more recent archives available in Okinawa (and possibly elsewhere), support many of the firsthand accounts of soldiers and civilians. After reading hundreds of articles and top-secret documents that have been released, a different picture emerges … and it”s sickening as I mentioned above.
The following documents give the official account of some of what happened at the end of WWII and during the US Occupation of Okinawa.
U.S. Government. (1995). GHQ/SCAP top secret records I. Tokyo: Kashiwashobo.
U.S. Government. (1995). GHQ/SCAP top secret records II. Tokyo: Kashiwashobo.
U. S. Military. (1995). GHQ/SCAP top secret records II Vol. 15. Tokyo: Kashishabo.
U. S. Military. (1995). Top secret allocation of SCAP staff responsibilities for execution of provision of directives contained in JCS 1380/15-3 Nov 1945. In GHQ/SCAP top secret records II Vol. 1. Tokyo: Kashishabo Publishing Co., Ltd.
I guess the point of all this is, we need to understand history, “an entire history”, which is available through a dedicated quest for the truth; regardless how it may look to Americans and their Allies.
America has clearly lost its way as a result of the influence of covert societies such as The Council on Foreign Relations directing us towards world empire, and as a result is covered in blood. I pray we can recover from the crimes committed.
To KEM PATRICK and OKINAWA; Maybe I’m stubborn, maybe stupid, maybe mis-informed, but I stand by my comments. KEM, we went through this several months ago, if you recall, when I mentioned the article in the 1975 article by the late Norman Cousins in the defunct ‘Saturday Review’ magazine. He didn’t mention General Holderidge, but Truman’s advisors convinced the Pres that if Stalin did move some of the Red Army east and help defeat Japan, they’d want their share too. We wanted to dominate Asia (except China) and had no intention of splitting Japan in two, like Germany. Plus, nuking men, women, children, and babies showed Stalin what we were capable of doing, in case he was overly ambitious after the war.
I must say, you have an impressive array of information to look up, but so much is still classified and may never be released for historical scrutiny. We can debate it forever. I will make one comment on nuclear bombs.
I was an infantry squad leader in Vietnam in 1967. One day on a search and destroy mission (I’m not proud of it) we were having lunch. Our platoon medic, the First Sergeant, myself and another fellow were having a discussion. The medic asked the ‘First Shirt’ why we didn’t just drop a few atomic bomb and get it over with, to which the First Sergeant replied, and I’lll never forget…he told the medic he was part of the occupying force in Japan after WW2 and saw ‘FIRSTHAND’ the effects of radiation on the victims at Hiroshima, and he would rather stay in Vietnam for ten more years fighting with ‘conventional weapons’ than to drop one ‘A-Bomb’ and end the war tomorrow. The medic didn’t understand. I did. All the years I served in the Army on three continents, that First Sergeant was the man I most admired and respected, not specifically for that statement, but his kindness and expert professionalism on the field of battle. I was fortunate to be in a good unit.
The Vietnamese never did anything to us, yet we invaded their country and slaughtered millions, killing and maiming, and not only using the infamous ‘agent orange’ but also ‘agent blue’ on their crops. Babies are still born deformed over there. And you, brother KEM, are the CD’er authority on depleted uranium, know the effects of that toxic substance and have written about it. The blessed Dr. Helen Caldicott has written books on it.
Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else the US “invites itself in.” Death, destruction, misery, and suffering.
That is correct about DU PEACEMAN, both Presidents Roosevelt and Truman refused to consider the idea of dirty bombs or DU ammunition and Truman forbade it forever. Eisenhouer overrode that order after he took office. Now look at the mess we are in on that issue. MacArthur wanted Truman to authorize the use of Atomic bombs on North Korea and China during the Korean War and again Truman refused.
As bad as the effects of the two bombs that were dropped on Japan they are pin pricks when compared ot the use of DU ammo and I see few objecting to DU use. There also have been 134 above ground atomic bomb explosions since 1945, every bit of that deadly radiation released is still with us.
Yes, atomic bombs are a horrible mistake. So was the start of the Second World War, we didn’t start it. We ended it in Japan and I would have done the same thing Truman did if I had the information he had at that time.
It wa safe to live in Hiroshema with in two years after the war ended, but with DU use, it will never be safe for anyone to live in Iraq. ___ Well, after a few billion years it may be.