White House Acts to Limit Health Plan for Children
The Bush administration, continuing its fight to stop states from expanding the popular Children’s Health Insurance Program, has adopted new standards that would make it much more difficult for New York, California and others to extend coverage to children in middle-income families.
Administration officials outlined the new standards in a letter sent to state health officials on Friday evening, in the middle of a month-long Congressional recess. In interviews, they said the changes were aimed at returning the Children’s Health Insurance Program to its original focus on low-income children and to make sure the program did not become a substitute for private health coverage. 
After learning of the new policy, some state officials said today that it could cripple their efforts to cover more children by imposing standards that could not be met.
Ann Clemency Kohler, deputy commissioner of human services in New Jersey, said: “We are horrified at the new federal policy. It will cause havoc with our program and could jeopardize coverage for thousands of children.”
Stan Rosenstein, the Medicaid director in California, said the federal policy was “highly restrictive, much more restrictive than what we want to do.”
The poverty level for a family of four is $20,650 in annual income. New York now covers children in families with income up to 250 percent of the poverty level. The State Legislature has passed a bill that would raise the limit to 400 percent of the poverty level - $82,600 for a family of four - but the change is subject to federal approval.
California wants to increase its income limit to 300 percent of the poverty level, from 250 percent. Pennsylvania recently raised its limit to 300 percent, from 200 percent. New Jersey has had a limit of 350 percent for more than five years.
As on other issues like immigration, the White House is taking action on its own to advance policies that were not embraced by Congress.
In his budget request in February, President Bush proposed strict limits on family income for the child health program. But in voting this month to renew the program for five years, neither house of Congress accepted that proposal for the program, whose legal authority for the child health program expires on Sept. 30. The policy in the Bush administration’s letter would continue indefinitely, although Democrats in Congress could try to pass legislation overriding it.
The Children’s Health Insurance Program has strong support from governors of both parties, including Republicans like Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota and Sonny Perdue of Georgia. When the Senate passed a bill to expand the program this month, 18 Republican senators voted for it, in defiance of a veto threat from Mr. Bush.
In the letter sent to state health officials about 7:30 p.m. on Friday, Dennis G. Smith, the director of the federal Center for Medicaid and State Operations, set a high standard for states that want to raise eligibility for the child health program above 250 percent of the poverty level.
Before making such a change, Mr. Smith said, states must demonstrate that they have “enrolled at least 95 percent of children in the state below 200 percent of the federal poverty level” who are eligible for either Medicaid or the child health program.
Deborah S. Bachrach, a deputy commissioner in the New York State Health Department, said, “No state in the nation has a participation rate of 95 percent.”
And Cindy Mann, a research professor at the Health Policy Institute of Georgetown University, said, “No state would ever achieve that level of participation under the president’s budget proposals.”
The Congressional Budget Office has said that the president’s budget, which seeks $30 billion from 2008 to 2012, is not enough to pay for current levels of enrollment, much less to cover children who are eligible but not enrolled.
When Congress created the Children’s Health Insurance Program in 1997, it said the purpose was to cover “uninsured low-income children.” Under the law, states are supposed to make sure public coverage “does not substitute for coverage under group health plans;” but the law did not specify what states must do.
In an interview today, Mr. Smith said: “The program was always meant for children in lower-income families. As states move higher up the income scale, it’s more likely to substitute for private coverage.”
To minimize the risk of such substitution, Mr. Smith said in his letter, states should charge co-payments or premiums that approximate the cost of private coverage and should impose “waiting periods,” to make sure higher-income children do not go directly from a private health plan to a public program.
If a state wants to set its income limit above 250 percent of the poverty level ($51,625 for a family of four), Mr. Smith said, “the state must establish a minimum of a one-year period of uninsurance for individuals” before they can receive public coverage.
That is considerably stricter than requirements imposed in the past. In February, for example, the Bush administration allowed Pennsylvania to increase its income limit to 300 percent of the poverty level after the state agreed to a six-month waiting period for children who are 2 and older with family incomes exceeding 200 percent of the poverty level.
As another precaution, Mr. Smith said, states wanting to cover children above 250 percent of the poverty level must show that “the number of children in the target population insured through private employers has not decreased by more than two percentage points over the prior five-year period.”
In New Jersey, which has a three-month waiting period, Ms. Kohler said, “we have no evidence of a decline in employer-sponsored coverage resulting from the Children’s Health Insurance Program.”
In the Senate debate this month, several Republicans offered a proposal similar to the new Bush administration policy. They wanted to require states to cover 95 percent of low-income children before allowing states to expand eligibility.
Senator Max Baucus, the Montana Democrat who is chairman of the Finance Committee, argued against the proposal, saying: “No state can meet 95 percent. No state currently meets 95 percent.”
Ms. Kohler estimated that New Jersey was covering 70 percent of eligible children.
In his letter, Mr. Smith said the new standards would apply to states that previously received federal approval to cover children with family incomes exceeding 250 percent of the poverty level. Such states should amend their state plans to meet federal expectations within 12 months, or the Bush administration “may pursue corrective action,” Mr. Smith said.
Two Republican senators, Charles E. Grassley of Iowa and Pat Roberts of Kansas, urged the Bush administration last week to deny New York’s request to cover children with family incomes up to four times the poverty level. The proposal, they said, violates the original intent of Congress, which wanted to focus on lower-income children.
But Gov. Eliot Spitzer of New York said that, “contrary to the senators’ objections,” federal law allows states to set higher income limits.
“Granting this expansion is essential to the health and well-being of New York’s children,” Mr. Spizter said.
Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
And where is the Democratic Congress? Whatever happened to expanding SCHIP? Now that Bush is restricting the program, what will Congressional Dems do? Anything?
If the “Dems” do not act to stop this we MUST act to stop them. I wonder of they even think they could lose their cushy jobs if they do not start acting like our Representatives.
This seems like a plan:
Keep them dumb.
Keep them unwell.
Keep them poor.
THEN, when they turn 18, the military suddenly looks like a great option (even though the health care in the military sucks, the pay is lousy, and the benefits for education a total joke).
More bodies for their war machine…
Why should children in middle income families be subsidized when they are in middle income families? It is the parents responsibility to pay for the costs they incur when choosing to have children, and as middle income earners, they can certainly afford it…if they are not placing other things ahead of their kids health care. At the very least these benefits *should* be means tested, and yet that is what the author is complaining about.
The plan I see is incrementally placing more and more people on the dole…to increase support for socializing care for the entire nation after habituating kids and families to the idea that it’s someone elses responsibility to carry them.
Some would say that the whole SCHIP proposal recently was a political ploy to show the difference in views on this matter, that might be. I do not believe that the Democrats are above playing politics, but they are so obvious when they do it. They lack the deception and cunning of their evil opponents.
I think that the Democrats really wanted the working poor families to have better health care and that the priorities should be on that and not more no bid contracts for Halliburton and others. This is a solid principle and if there is some political ground to be gained, then so much the better.
re MtnGoat 1:09pm
here’s the question you should have asked: why should middle-income families subsidize giant corporations like aetna and united/oxford? what value do they add to the transaction between doctor and patient?
This is another action by Bush-Cheney to legislate or appoint during recesses without Congressional oversight. Expanding SCHIP is a easy & effective way to improve the health of all children and strength our deteriorating vastly under funded public health system. Congress must stop this self-appointed imperialistic president and take back the federal budget from the neocons for neglected domestic needs instead of the administrations unilaterial militaristic foreign polices.
They add the value of modern facilities accessible with minimum waits and new procedures and medications, organized by a system that *must* satisfy it’s customers…or else it doesn’t make money. They have no direct line to your wallet and are not run for political reasons with politicians making determinations concerning what will and will not be provided.
The fact is that if I don’t like the care I get, I can walk away and choose another provider…without leaving the country, without expending years and zillions of bucks to wait for a change via govt. And there’s not a danged thing Aetna or any other company can do about it. If they want my money, they must discretely satisfy me…and I have total control over wether or not my money goes to them. I hold the whip hand over their money.
Bush and his crew probably think that if the poor want health care for their children badly enough, they can join the military and get all they want.
DEMPUBLICAN PARTY: PUTTING CORPORATE PROFITS BEFORE CHILDRENS HEALTH
White Corporate AmeriKKKa the threat to Global Peace
Rich people running a fascist police state…
Viva la European progressive forward thinking democracy which gives you excellent health care, living standards and working conditions…
“I hold the whip hand over their money.”
It didn’t take long for the republicans to figure out how to make comments. How long before this place is as bad as Huffpo?
re MtnGoat 1:54pm
insurance companies make money by cherry-picking only the healthiest of clients (see “pre-existing conditions” clause) and dumping the remainder on medicare/medicaid, collecting premiums and denying coverage, leaving the patient to pay out of pocket (if able). they do not provide “modern facilities…new procedures (or) medications,” at least not in this plane of existence. they provide nothing but redundant paperwork and unnecessary waiting for reimbursement, and elevate their profit-driven decisions over the medical judgement of doctors who have actually seen the patients in question.
MtnGoat, you’re delusional if you think you have any kind of “hold” over these giant corporations. They’ve bought the politicians, they have you paying your own AND their taxes, their lobbyists write the laws giving them free rein to do as they please. You have none of these rights. But you do get a 70 cent minimum wage increase (first in 10 years while inflation has so eroded income that we’re in danger of paying them to work for them). How come I don’t hear you complaining about that? The corporations are ruining our standards of living and funding politicians who are turning our democracy into a fascist state, and you’re like a cheerleader with pompoms, rooting for them. I can’t figure out if you’re getting paid to do this or if you’re so blinded by Ayn Rand that you can’t see what’s happening in the real world. In Ayn Rand’s world, people weren’t getting kicked in the teeth by mega-corporations, but in this world, we are.
I recommend you go watch SiCKO. It reveals what you regard as these amazingly benevolent corporations are doing to us. This isn’t Michael Moore making anything up, it’s real peoples’ experiences at the hands of these companies, and some revealing statements from CEOs. It’s real life, not your dream world of complete self-sufficiency. I realize your philosophy is every man for himself, and hey, if someone can’t cut it, tough shit, unless a good Samaritan happens along and chooses to offer a hand.
we already know from the war that millions of people protesting in the street solves nothing. how about millions of naked gun-toting people occupying the halls of congress
MtnGoat: In other posts I have seen you make reasonable arguments and some good points. This is not one of them. Not by a long shot! Did it ever occur to you that poor parents do not have the option of getting any healthcare for their children? That they don’t have the bucks to decide who offfers the best insurance? YOU may have a choice to vote with YOUR bucks, but they don’t. That means their children DIE! Get it? They DIE!! And for what? For the profit driven insurance companies and big pharma.
Get a grip! The individual states have a much better sense of what is good for the children in their states. The federal government doen’t have a clue and should not be dictating to the states. Period!
At least some states are trying to protect their most vulnerable occupants - the children. While the federal government twiddles its thumbs (do they even have opposable thumbs?) and does nothing to provide universal, single payor, healthercare for all.
America is the ONLY industrialized nation that does not have universal healthcare. Why? Greed! And what do we get for all those profits to the big corps? One of the worst healthcare systems in the world.
Medicare for all NOW!
Support HR626! Get your congress critter to sign on! The vote for Dennis Kucinich in the primaries.
Kathy, I do believe your critizism of Mtn Goat’s comments is rather gentle.___ You’re too nice.
If you wont take care of your children, why should I? Get another beer or joint Mac.
Ignore Cheneybush and his venal attempts to enrich the rich already. Insiders should ignore this - and all future efforts - to screw over hard working Americans struggling to survive in the era of the super-obscenely-wealthy “ownership society,” where if it’s not loyalbushies like Enron ramming it to us, or big oil, or big farm, or big pharma, then it’s big insurance - all with a lot of welfare and deregs from the Loonitary Dictator and his GOPathological minions.
To argue that denying even more poor children the right to basic health care because it might encourage some to NOT buy private insurance they cannot afford anyhow is yet another sign of just how deep the loyalbushie mental illness is. And, to RH above - yea, I took care of my kid and he got lead poisoning from his favorite Chinese toy. My insurance won’t cover it. Any suggestions, moron?
We all pay taxes, but we don’t all have health care. Looks like the Moms win out here! There are few things more heart wrenching than a sick child whether or not they happen to have health insurance. When we pay taxes AND we all have access to good health care the playing field will be more level.
Hazmat, Collidingrivers and Rebel Farmer are all right. By cutting back on children’s access to health care somewhere, somehow, somebody is making money. Every decision made by the ‘decider’ benefits somebody. I agree that the ProLifers insist that every microscopic potential be born, but then the
rest is up to you until they are eligible for cannon fodder. And it doesn’t end there. If they are wounded and maimed and suffering from God only knows what they are still on their own. It is imperitive to improve the bottom line of the elite. I suggest that Mtn.Goat spend a couple of days in a children’ hospital for R and R (reawakening and restoration.)
Kathyodat, you’re delusional if you think i made any claim I have a hold over them. What I have a hold over is wether or not I choose to pay them for my health care. Everything else is an outcome you’ve backed with your inherently flawed attempts to co-opt buisness using govt.
Every bit of power they purchase from govt is power which resides with govt because you support placing it there to begin with. When they buy subsidies, it’s because you support the State having the power to deliver them to anyone. When they buy market restrictions, it’s because you support the State having the power to create them. Then power does what power does, and gets govt to use what you delegated to shape everything to it’s own liking.
The fact of the matter is power knows how to pursue power, and as long as your belief persists that you can isolate power from the powerful, you’ll keep right on delivering the power to be purchased by the highest bidder.
” they do not provide “modern facilities…new procedures (or) medications,” at least not in this plane of existence. they provide nothing but redundant paperwork and unnecessary waiting for reimbursement, and elevate their profit-driven decisions over the medical judgement of doctors who have actually seen the patients in question.”
I’m sorry, I do not prefer govt panels imposing their values based on political reasoning in what to pay or not pay for. Like it or not, medical care is a physical commodity like anything else, and no matter who rations it, people will die.
I prefer to decide who rations to me, rather than having some State functionary use their own goals and their own lust for power and votes take my money by force, and do it for the benefit of their own reasons.
Evidently MNT GOAT, hasn’t had to visit an emergency room or had a serious illness in the family, such as a child suffering with a broken arm or a cancer. Middle class people should be able to afford treatments for their kids___ if they manage their money the Goat says.
Well Goat, the middle class people in America are the ones who are just making ends meet, both parents working, and or, one just laid off because their job was outsourced to China or sales are down and “sorry gotta let you go”. That’s middle class America Goat. Then an unexpected medical bill of $30 to $50,000 or much much more, which middle class American family cannot possibly pay, and after ninety days or so, the bill goes to a collection agency. The lower class Americans, of which a great many were middle class Americans six years ago,(2,000bb) don’t even get past the doctors receptionist.
Meanwhile, the child of an illegal alien gets treated with the best of medical care, and they have NO bill to pay. Their thousands of dollars medical bill is paid by government insurance, supplied by the middle class workers taxes.
If you continually wish to support Bush, Mnt Goat, please go there and whoop it up, where you won’t annoy the Americans who care about what is going on in our country in such a disasterous manner. You wrote the same type of Bush supporting crap on another string yesterday. Well, at least your ignorance gets a fair discussion going. On second thought Goat, stink around,__ you may be helping.
Oh,___ 2,000bb is 2,000 before Bush.
MtnGoat, you would do well to read HR 676 before judging it. It does not make any decisions about health care, that is between the care provider and patient, it simply pays the bills and is funded through a 3% tax increase, a small business tax increase, a 1/2 of 1% tax on stock transactions, and closing corporate tax loopholes. The system we have now is horribly wasteful, and 18,000 uninsured Americans die every year because they do not have health care. HR 676 covers all medical needs for all Americans and visitors to this country. As do other Western industrialized countries. It’s civilized, would free up our economy, making it more competitive with other economies. right now, insurers do their best to deny payments, sue homeowners’ insurance to pay medical bills, raise havoc all over the place. It appears that you only inform yourself with what you want to know, not what is really going on.
a guiding principle of libertarian thought is that gov’t should do only that which the people can’t do for themselves; for example, defend against invasion, build infrastructure and enforce contracts. well, what if we the people decided that we like that old barn-raising, look-after-your-neighbor ethic? what if we decided that guaranteeing the health of all was just the right thing to do?
a gov’t based on mutual aid and reciprocity would be exactly the right vehicle for such aspirations. we can have it if we want it, but we’ll have to scrape the insurance corporations off our shoes first (and trolls like MtnGoat with them).
MtnGoat is obviously a self-laid egg. I didn’t think there was such a thing. But I guess my eyes have been opened. How lucky that he wasn’t born to poor parents!
I don’t know which one is worse these days insurance company’s or banks. Both have a control over everything.
Actually, the insurance company’s own the banks, the banks launder the money and provide us with accounts and credit cards. Who owns the insurance company’s?___ Good question,__ be fun to trace the money trail and the paper work and find out.
I thought the saying was ’suffer the little children to come unto me’
NOT
make the little children suffer
An angry actor from California once obediently said that Government is the problem. Depending on how you look at the statement, it can come across as something you immediately agree with. The message this fool was trying to get across is that punishment, or worse, indifference, is the only way greed and profit will take precedence over everything else in society. So, Health Care for Children is too expensive, according to the current employees. Ammunition is far more profitable to these guys then your health. There aren’t any hearings for death machinery, the middle class without question will pay for cluster bombs, scanning equipment at airports, or lose their lives.
When tyrants are threatened, they’ll be sure to remind us of how bad Government is. It’s unbelievable the shit that people in this country will tolerate from their corporate masters.
Well Bane, That is why we should listen to citizens like Kathyodat, the HR 676 bill would pretty much solve the probem.
I have a question for collidingrivers. Just what in the world do you base your statement, “health care in the military sucks, the pay is lousy, and the benefits for education a total joke” on? Have you spent any time in the military? I am retired Navy and think that you are full of it. The best medical treatment is prevention and the military is the only occupation I know of where you have to pass a semiannual physical fitness test. How many bosses have you had that gave you time off to PT? I had an annual physical and access to some of the best doctors I have ever met. The pay may be lousy initially, but it starts to catch up and really becomes good when you retire (actually called deferred compensation) at the age of 38 and collect 50% adjusted to the CPI annually for the rest of your life. That retirement and my GI Bill paid for my Bachelor of Sciences degree without taking out student loans. So, I ask you again, on what are you basing your opinion?
“Evidently MNT GOAT, hasn’t had to visit an emergency room or had a serious illness in the family, such as a child suffering with a broken arm or a cancer.”
Of course not. If someone disagree with you, it must be because of identity politics in some way. It cannot be a disagreement in principle or logic, it must be because ideas are relative only to those who have experienced what you purport.
Does a 2 month premature emergency C section count? A broken elbow? How about a fall and e room trip?
What does it say about your argument that one can experience these things and not only believe something in opposition to you, but consider that they *strengthen* the argument in opposition to you, when you think they should do the opposite?
“you continually wish to support Bush, Mnt Goat, please go there and whoop it up, where you won’t annoy the Americans who care about what is going on in our country in such a disasterous manner. ”
I don’t support Bush. He should be threatening to veto the entire bill no matter *what* details it contains, because placing ever more direct control over care out of the hands of citizens and into the hands of state functionaries is to be avoided at all costs, and he has done this not only the hideous prescription drug bill, but with medicare and other issues as well.
Don’t make the mistake of assuming that ‘caring’ is only the way you define it.
“MtnGoat, you would do well to read HR 676 before judging it. It does not make any decisions about health care, that is between the care provider and patient, it simply pays the bills”
It pays the bills…and decides *what kinds of bills to pay*. There is no separating deciding what to pay from making decisions about health care. Each decision of what to pay and now much is *exactly* a decision about health care and what will be provided.
“what if we decided that guaranteeing the health of all was just the right thing to do?”
You’d find that such a guarantee was a lie and an impossibility. NOT ONE socialized system on Earth ‘guarantees’ health care to all. They ration, just like everyone else. In Canada and other nations, it’s by waiting list, and restrictions on procedures, drugs, and access to specialists, based on budget constraints imposed for political reasons. Tell us someone else will be deciding who gets what and how much, and that some state board will decide when to let you die of cancer because a new treatment is too expensive…don’t lie to us and tell this will not occur.
The fact is that all material goods are rationed, this will also be rationing, people will in fact die denied things they need which are ratioined…just be honest about the unfortunate reality of limited resources and what must be done because of it.
Otherwise, you cannot even begin to have an honest discussion that applies to the real world.
MtnGoat, the fact of the matter is, we’re already at the point where people are dying or being disabled because they don’t get employer insurance, can’t survive a pre-existing condition exclusionary period, can’t afford to self-pay, can’t find providers who’ll take self-pay and/or can’t get (or can’t afford) privately purchased insurance. We even have people dying or being disabled because the insurance companies denied appropriate care or delayed it unreasonably. We already have health care rationing, it’s just being done by private companies that control the market.
At least if we had a single payer system like HR 676, we’d have a good idea of what would or wouldn’t be paid, and if it worked right we’d have guaranteed access to basic/maintenance care.
MtnGoat,
My sister is a Canadian so you can’t mislead me about the Canadian healthcare system. Longer waits in the U.S. for health care. My sister and her family don’t want to live in the U.S. because of our bad healthcare system. Her family is well off but likes the Canadian health care system.
Hey, “MtnGoat”! How much attention do you need?
Technical arguments devoid of the ability to SENSE any form of reality. You remind me of the Fox/O’Reilly type. A hawk who has never held someones brain matter in their hands. I’ve been there - done that. There is a real time stench involved. You cannot fathom life and death at this level, so you put forth your Peter Pan advice annonymously. You have me confused with someone who gives a damn about such obviously contrived crap.
So you have money! Good for you, sis. Go spend it - as obviously this argument is meaningless to you. Stop the public mental masturbation, mouthpiece, and go buy a nice toy for yourself. I, for one, shall not respond your mayonaise loaded tripe again.
Fondly,
Invite all to look at another solution that considers individuals not groups, and is interested in fighting poverty and inequality.
Your friend, John
Go to WWUNITED.ORG
MtnGoat,
I understand your perspective. But wait until you go in for cancer treatment. Then you will be at the beckoning mercy of those healthcare providers, hoping that one of them will insure you.
People, talking to MtnGoat is like talking to a deaf wall. Whoever this person is, he/she is obviously totally ignorant of HR 676 and has condemned it without a hearing. To insist that it will determine what is and is not paid for is being clueless. I already stated that it will pay for ALL treatments ordered by a licensed health care professional and was contradicted by MtnGoat without any supporting evidence except the perennial howl of “socialized medicine”. Sounds like a dinosaur in our midst.
I suggest we stop wasting our time trying to dialogue with someone who just keeps repeating the same worn out Ayn Rand banalities without any supporting facts.
The reality on the ground is that this health care system is incredibly expensive, covers far too few Americans, uses enormous amounts of our premium payments to deny coverage and treatment, initiates lawsuits against homeowners to get out of paying for injuries, pays it’s CEOs obscene salaries and bonuses, spends a third of our health care dollars on itself, and pays an army of 1,000 lobbyists to have it’s way with Congress.
The following is an excerpt from the California Nurses Association (at the end is a link to the full article):
When former Pfizer CEO Henry McKinnell left the company in 2006, he was given pension, stock and other benefits worth 180 million dollars, according to AFL-CIO Corpwatch.
But CEO William McGuire, of UnitedHealth Group, a health insurance company, stands alone. His annual salary in 2005 was 124 million dollars and he has been provided stock options worth more than 1.7 billion dollars, according to Forbes.com. As part of his retirement package, he and his spouse will receive free health care for as long as they live, according to AFL-CIO Corpwatch.
This is not the case for the average U.S. family, Woolhandler said. If a parent becomes too ill to work, they may lose their salary and be unable to pay their health insurance.
“We found that three-quarters of people bankrupted by illness had insurance at the beginning,” Woolhandler said.
People who have an existing illness, like asthma, are charged double the price for insurance or may be refused altogether, said Woolhandler, who founded Physicians for a National Health Program, which wants the U.S. to switch to a government-run health care system, as in Canada.
http://www.calnurse.org/media-center/in-the-news/2007/april/page.jsp?itemID=30198374
“My sister is a Canadian so you can’t mislead me about the Canadian healthcare system. Longer waits in the U.S. for health care. My sister and her family don’t want to live in the U.S. because of our bad healthcare system. Her family is well off but likes the Canadian health care system.”
Odd, then why did the Canadian supreme court rule that access to a waiting list is NOT access to health care? Why did the Canadian woman wind up in the US to have her quads due to a lack of staff at her own hospital? It seems something here isn’t adding up.
“People, talking to MtnGoat is like talking to a deaf wall. Whoever this person is, he/she is obviously totally ignorant of HR 676 and has condemned it without a hearing. To insist that it will determine what is and is not paid for is being clueless. I already stated that it will pay for ALL treatments ordered by a licensed health care professional and was contradicted by MtnGoat without any supporting evidence except the perennial howl of “socialized medicine”.”
I suggest you are the ‘deaf wall’, whatever that is, Kathyodat. Are you so unable to reason that you do not realize that deciding it will pay for the treatments you mention is proof that the State will be deciding what to pay for and what not to pay for?
Please explain for us how the power to define what you will pay for, is not the power to decide what will be paid for…just as I stated. Seriously, when one can’t even see these basics it is seriously in doubt you are making valid judgements concerning the issue in question.
You’re right Kathy, it’s like arguing with a blank wall, so I won’t respond to the Goat’s latest.
I do not understand why medical care cannot be at least in some ways, like it was before the 1960s. We had a community doctor, who was a highly regarded physician. Every weekday after 6pm, we could go to his home where he had a clinic, and be seen by him for almost any ailment. He had a clerk and a nurse, the charge was always the same($2.00) Two bucks. He was a fine doctor, who normally saw about twenty patients every evening. There were other doctors in the community who provided the same type of doctoring and in an emergency would make house calls. They all had expensive homes and drove luxury automobiles.___ We didn’t have health care insurance then. It cost about three hundred bucks total for a three day stay in the hospital to pop out a baby, etc.___ I never did that.
Now I see my doctor, after an appointment and a week long wait. He has a nurse, three medical techs, five office workers who sit in front of computers and do the necessary paperwork, finally a receptionist. An office visit is $72.00, unless the doctor does something and or perscribes medication, then the price goes way up. He has a wonderful home and drives a luxury automobile and has his private aircraft. No house calls and if you are pregnant, you are gonna get screwed again, several times if you have either lousy or no insurance.
I am reminded of a presidential debate between then VP Al Gore and Governor George Bush. Gore commented that the condition of poor women and children in Texas was one of the worst in the country. All Bush said was, “Are you saying I’m hard-hearted?”
If Bush would ask me that question, I would answer that, not only is Bush hard-hearted, he is downright mean. He has had an insulated and privileged life and it has made him shallow, cruel and arrogant.
There! I said it!
“You’re right Kathy, it’slike arguing with a blank wall, so I won’t respond to the Goat’s latest.”
Most likely because you can’t. But I can still post, and others will fill in for you.
It’s certainly interesting that I have seen no shift in *your* viewpoint in this discussion, but that someone elses commitment to ideas is a ‘blank wall’. How is that consistent?
MtnGoat,
When I worked in Burlington, Vermont; some of my U.S. Citizen co-workers routinely went to Canada for their medical care and our congressman took busloads of people to Canada to buy their medications.
z
Kathy,
MtnGoat never answered my implied question as to whether MtnGoat had been born to poor parents or not?
I wonder if MntGoat is actually GWB?
I couldn’t make it through this thread. I got stuck on MtnGoat’s first post. I believe he is a troll. Maybe he’s a right wing/libertarian plant paid to disrupt this forum. His whole ethos is that we’re all on our own. But his wonderful “free market” isn’t a place that actually reflects our economic wishes. It’s rigged to side with monied interests, corraling our choices into the mouths of a handful of enormous corporations/insurers.
In my opinion, there needs to be a balance between individual choice and a society where we band together to make sure our basic needs are met (and healthcare is one of them). Although I am not familiar with all of their positions, I think the Democratic Socialists of America have a POV that I can support.
http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html
From DSA “Where We Stand” paper:
“We are socialists because we reject an international economic order sustained by private profit, alienated labor, race and gender discrimination, environmental destruction, and brutality and violence in defense of the status quo.
“We are socialists because we share a vision of a humane international social order based both on democratic planning and market mechanisms to achieve equitable distribution of resources, meaningful work, a healthy environment, sustainable growth, gender and racial equality, and non-oppressive relationships.”
I wonder how MtnGoat feels about such a world view.
maybe this is Bush’s version of China’s population controls.
As a Statistician myself, I can tell you that nearly all Life Expectancies use infant mortality in their calculations. So when you see average life expectency, keep in mind it also includes infant mortality.
So it’s why 80-100 years ago, at the beginning of the 20th century, life expectancy in America was only like 48-50. Too many infants were dying and skewing the data substantially lower. Nowadays, not only are we having less children (lower birth rate) but we’re keeping a higher rate of them alive and well when they’re born through their childhood. This restrictions placed on this program are invariably going to against this great progress of health care.
Health Care has made great strides, there’s no discounting that. The problem is health care access, and insurance and always has been. Let’s try to stay on topic when we fight for universal health care.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/bulletin/2006/financesurvey.pdf?loc=interstitialskip
Here’s how “great” the American Family is doing, and how much Bush has “Strengthened” it during his reign.
All you really need to read is the first page. That says it all. Booming Economy my arse.
“MtnGoat never answered my implied question as to whether MtnGoat had been born to poor parents or not?”
Perhaps you should try asking a direct question instead of expecting mind reading! It tends to get an answer in fewers posts.
Is both parents working poor, or must we have been under some income limit?
How does being ‘poor’ mean one will or will not judge things rationally? I’ll tell you right now, if your ethical system cannot answer for itself without having some personal emotional connection to it, it’s not likely that it is rationally defensible.
The goat droppings are pretty bad so I will just sidestep them.
Bush fears that as we incrementally expand publicly funded health care, his insurance buddies will not get to reap the excessive profits they do off of illness and death.
So let’s not go incremental: let’s go the full goat, er I mean hog. Let’s do a single payer system, as found in John Conyers H.R. 676, and give the insurance companies the boot. They needn’t be profiting off illness, and they add nothing–absolutely nothing– to health. They are like a giant leech the bleeds the system.
See here: http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm
Here: http://www.pnhp.org/
And here: http://www.healthcare-now.org/
And get on board, lobby your congressperson, educate, mobilize, and organize to bring it to fruition. This is not socialized medicine. It is good, fiscally conservative, good sense. Bush is against anything that doesn’t allow multinationals and big business to milk the American people.
I have had experience with socialized medicine; for 25 years I was cared for and treated by doctors, techs, nurses, etc all on the US Gov’t payroll. I had several operations, numerous minor problems, and my wife birthed 3 kids–all of it was FREE. It was all good and I had no complaints, and now mtngoat and robert hall make me out to be a commie or worse a freeloading malingerer. OK maybe I was but I still went VN twice and numerous other places that were not all pleasant. I also use the roads of the USA for free and I can call the PD or FD if I need them and they are all paid for by us goddamit all of us. We MUST have a National Health Program in this country-screw people like the 2 named above (as if anyone would want to).Ayn Rand would maybe.
“I couldn’t make it through this thread. I got stuck on MtnGoat’s first post. I believe he is a troll. Maybe he’s a right wing/libertarian plant paid to disrupt this forum.”
Is that the only way anyone can disagree with these ideas? Or are they somehow related to poverty or some other experience? Is what you seek really an echo chamber instead of discussion?
“His whole ethos is that we’re all on our own.”
Yup. That doesn’t prevent *actual* open cooperation, because that is extremely valuable. But what it does indicate that trust in anyone else using your power for you is counterproductive from first principles. Whoever you give it to will use it for their reasons not yours, and can do no other, simply because they are not you.
Look at this entire site. it’s filled with people unhappy that the power they’ve given away is not used as they want. What do you expect? You tell us we’re all tools of society, you hand your power to someone else on the basis that it can be fixed by someone else, then they do what they want and believe with it…as no one can do anything but, because they are not you.
“But his wonderful “free market” isn’t a place that actually reflects our economic wishes. It’s rigged to side with monied interests, corraling our choices into the mouths of a handful of enormous corporations/insurers. ”
Mostly it does. YOu claim there are a heck of a lot of you and yet what all of you do with your money is clearly not in line with what you claim, so it’s pretty obvious you want someone else to act as they won’t actually choose.
To the degree it is rigged, you’ve provided the power for that by handing it off to someone else.
“In my opinion, there needs to be a balance between individual choice and a society where we band together to make sure our basic needs are met (and healthcare is one of them).”
So band together and meet them. Everyone here can be on board and you can show us how well it works. You don’t need one line of legislation nor one instant of waiting. Start a health co-op with your stated goals and ethics and show us how it’s done. You need not wait for anything.
“I wonder how MtnGoat feels about such a world view.”
Why, it sounds wonderful. Why wait? I don’t see what the problem is. Form some committees and organize and only hire people and pay them using your principles.
Obviously they claim their economics is superior and just, so getting land for living and housing should be no problem. I guess I’m not seeing what is holding you folks back from just cooperating and doing this thing.
I suppose it could be you figure everyone must do it, but that can’t be it because you keep talking about cooperation, which doesn’t exist when it’s threatened out of people.
Peace Warrior: I have known mentally retarded people in my time and almost all of them were kind-natured and decent human beings. They were nothing like Mtngoat appears to be. None of them were mean spirited and greedy–afraid someone else might get something while he wasn’t looking.
Mtngoat suffers from too much propaganda–the Limbaugh machine has given his brain a reverse enema. If not Limbaugh, there is, of course, all of Murdock’s spin. Mtngoat appers to have fallen for the propaganda. He is AFRAID. I understand that fear to a certain extent. It is true that bureaucrats like to boss people around and petty government bureaucrats are often the worst. Yet, Medicare seems to work pretty good for those who have it, and it worked even better before they turned it over to the private section for “managed plans.”
But this does not change the fact that Mtngoat is, in a word, a ditto head. Imagine that! Some people are actually proud of the fact that they can’t think for themselves, that they absorb hours of Limbaugh’s spew and they are proud to say so. But there are hundreds of Limbaughs out there–or O’Reilys or “you fill in the blank.” As my dad used to say, it all depends on whose ox is being gored. Poor Mtngoat thinks if some kid gets covered by state insurance, there is somehow less of the pie for him. This country has God knows how many acres of forest, flatlands, minerals, and open country. You can travel for hours and hours without seeing a single house and yet there is a diminishing pie such that we can’t take care of the nation’s children? Of course, this is from the people who are snapping up the miles and miles of land, mining the minerals, deforesting the woods, etc. etc. as they stack their greenbacks in the bank. You get the picture. As during the depression, thousands stood in soup lines while the Vanderbilts and others continued to have their lavish parties. Not everyone suffered from the market crash–some did quite nicely by it all as they always do, thank you very much. Have you ever played Monopoly? Welcome to Capitalism.
The very wealthy spend billions to make sure that their propaganda washes over this country like a tsunami. When the Clintons discussed having a national plan (which didn’t seem like it would hurt the insurance companies very much), we got all of those Harry and Louise commercials. Those insurance companies will not turn loose of their death grip on the billions they are making so easily. Just think of all the man and woman hours that go into filling out papers, of approving or rejecting someone’s right to have a medical procedure. People get in their cars, burn gas, travel miles and miles to sit in a cubicle and actually do that. FIRST DO NO HARM is a rule the medical establishment is supposed to live by. Wouldn’t it be great if every job were measured by that criterium?? Wouldn’t it be great if people looked astonished and said: “you mean, you’ve spent all those years of your life filling in forms to tell people whether or not your company will pay for them to have a procedure? You’ve harassed doctors and told them whether or not they can do a procedure, given them little approval numbers to use in order to get paid for their services? Don’t you think you should have spent your life doing something real and that actually added value to your own life or the life of others? I mean, is it enough to say: it’s a job;I do as I am told? How are Americans reduced to this?
As for Mtngoat’s idea of of the excellent services private insurance provide, I would remind him that most of the hospitals built in this country were built by the taxpayers–many of these were affiliated with medical schools. The taxpayers subsized the medical education of these physicians, by building those medical schools and by paying the salaries of the professors. Many priviate charities also built hospitals. People worked very hard to build a medical establishment that would be available to the widest number of people. There used to be a spirit of concern in this country. Then, there came a greedy lot that ceased to care about their fellow man. In fact, they begin takeover manuevers of these very hospitals–privitize, privitize, privitize, as the “free market” will provide bigger and better services. In fact, these very state and federal built hospitals received millions and millions in government subsidizes to develop new drugs and other products. After development, the products were turned over to private companies to market into products. Time was when University scientists could publish freely and did not make all of their associates sign nondisclosure agreements. Time was when these men and women worked for the betterment of mankind and for the sheer love of knowledge even though they did not make a killer salary. Now, mum’s the word and keep quiet until you can get the patent filed–don’t publish too much before you get a strangle hold on the product. Yet the military still puts millions of dollars into research. The Department of Defense gives out millions of dollars to study breast cancer, prostate cancer and to find out new ways to patch up a body after it has been blown apart in battle. They give grants on how to get the barnacles off of ships by studying the glue that barnacles use to attach themselves to ships. Bet you didn’t know all of this, did you Mtngoat? So, even the military industerial complex wing of the government is spending lots of money on research–and it is not just for building bigger and better bombs. Would you call it WELFARE? If so, maybe it is being done under the GENERAL WELFARE CLAUSE of the U.S. Constitution. I used to think it amusing to hear doctors I worked with talk about “welfare” and folks on welfare repeating the propaganda as though “welfare” were a dirty word. “Well, I hate to inform you,” I told them, “but you are being paid government monies under the General Welfare clause of the Constitution as well as the clause that authorizes congress to promote general scientific inquiry.” Seems like those real EDUCATED, INTELLECTUAL guys like Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Washington, and all the rest thought a well-educated population would be a good thing–they thought that if men of good will could further education when they met in the halls of legislature, they should do so. They thought a healthy, well-housed, well-fed population would be a good thing. Jefferson wanted a nation of land owners. If a man owns land, he reasoned, he is free to be a man and not to sell his labor like a slave. He will take an interest in the affairs of state as he has a stake in the system. These founders of our Republic did not like BANKERS OR MONEY LENDERS. In fact, Jefferson said when you turn the country over to the bankers (read insurance companies and other money leechers as well), you were insuring (no pun intended) that your children would be homeless and starve. Jefferson wanted us to have an educated populace so badly he could taste it. Yes, I know these men had faults, but I am proud of what Jefferson tried to accomplish. I am proud that when Great Britain hired German mercenaries to fight us in 1776 and a whole army of them surrendered, Jefferson DID NOT as the current pathetic excuse for a president, declare them “enemy combatants” and order them tortured. In fact, the German soldiers were so astonished by their decent treatment that many of them stayed here and married, becoming citizens. Jefferson took the commander on a tour of his house and they became acquaintances for life. He would turn over in his grave to know how ignorant are the citizenry such as Mtngoat, the inhumaneness of this present government that thinks torture is a fine thing–that says it is acceptable”to crush the testicles” of a child of an “enemy combatant” in order to get information from the child’s father. Of course, Jefferson would have been a smart enough scientist to question the events of 9-11. It wouldn’t have taken him very long to figure our who the REAL terrorists are, and where the real threat to our freedoms and our lives reside.
You know whats funny about the “Market will correct all it’s own problems” and the free market, deregulation, “hands off” proponents… You didn’t hear the corperations and lenders complaining about government intervention last week last week when the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BAILED THEM OUT by slashing interest rates. If at first the marketplace fails miserably, go crying to the nanny government to save your asses.
If these supposed free market enthusiasts really wanted a free and unfettered free market, without government intervention, then they’d also be against corperations bribing and coercing the government, along with writing public law and public policy. You also don’t see them complain about this obvious merge of state and corperation.
They don’t. They want the laws and the system of this country to provide all the handouts and all the advantages to the top 1%, with the pathetic and dellusional dream that someday…..ohhhhhhh someday, the richest 1% are just going to get tired of all that money, and start giving it away to everyone.
Hah.
HOLYMOLY, WOW! Great lesson,__ thank you.
Hope you leave now Goat, you have done far enough good deeds on this string, see you are on others spreading your Limbaugh wisdom.
I’ve just suddenly been reminded of the cover of the LP “Goat’s Head Soup,” by the Rolling Stones.
Sophistry at its finest! Mt. Goat, I have to admire your comebacks. Example: “I’ll tell you right now, if your ethical system cannot answer for itself without having some personal emotional connection to it, it’s not likely that it is rationally defensible.” Such intelligent, indefensible sounding words.
How do you do it? I’m too dimwitted to pierce throught the verbiage.
What a fantastic post, holymoly! Are you a writer by trade or merely brilliant?
holymoly,
I agree with Frosty Bunny that you have a great post. However, do not forget the means these intellectual fellows went to, especially Jefferson to realize his vision of (white males) owning land by displacing millions of indigenous peoples. We unfortunately had the same reminder, perhaps worse, with Andrew “Old Hickory” Jackson and the Indian Removal Act of 1830 in his attempt to preserve Jeffersonian democratic ideals.
mtngoat, your ignorance toward co-op medical services is very limited. Instead of having all to pay individually for insurance we should all pay toward the same fund to pay for hospital, doctors and full service of Medicaid. We would have control of the cost and profit will be reinvested to subsidized low income family. That is what you might be afraid to call socialized medicine. There is nothing wrong with intelligent capitalism.
I forgot to specify, I am Canadian living here in the state legaly. At 35 living in Vancouver I was diagnosed with cancer and got hospitalized without any waiting period, two weeks later I was back on my bike and at the gym. Not rich was I, and if I was still in Canada today I would have coverage. Here, Kyser denied me coverage. They denied coverage for my 5 year old daughter. We are not poor, we do ok but what if I get into an accident tomorrow. Like someone said, we are last in the industrialized world, What is that say to you mtn goat.
holymoly thank you, I’m so impressed. And curious. Did you just spontaneously whip that out or have you been saving it for such a time as this? Either way, great job. A speech that should be heard by all.
mastershake, excellent point. I’ve been planning a new bumper sticker that says:
“END CORPORATE WELFARE”
“WWW VOTE.ORG”
And yes, it is so offensive to read about Bush slashing funds for schools, public safety, bridges, and CHILDREN, while corporations know they will always be bailed out even though they aren’t the ones paying the taxes used for it.
Jorgito Matojo (GW Bush) strikes again. The “richest” nation in the world cannot even take care of the health care of its future generation.
Where is Fidel when we need him? O for the Cuban, Canadian, Spanish or British health care system.
MtnGoat,
I am just trying to find out where your point of view comes from and that should be a part of this discussion. I pondered before if you were a self-laid egg. Were you? Please answer.
Did you have parents? Did you go to public schools? Were you a full grown, working adult from the beginning? Have you every driven on a public highway? Walked on a public sidewalk? How did you get to the point where you are the great, independent success that you are today?
Kathodat. I wrote the piece in the editor in real time. It was in no way written in advance. Who could not but be appreciative of such comments as yours–and of those of Kem Patrick and Frosty Bunny. I am glad I did not bore you–I tend to get verbose.
Claudius: I appreciate the feedback. And I feel the verbose virus attacking again, so here goes. In the biographies I have read of Jefferson, I was very impressed by how he very reluctantly moved against the Indians. In fact, he found occasion to praise them and their forms of government and defended their “savage” behavior when they had been brutalized by so-called civilized man. In his writings, he often lamented what we, as a nation, were doing to the red race. I know that he wanted blacks to be included in the Declaration of Indepedence, but the others who had assigned him to draw up that document thought that such a move would alienate too many rich land owners. He was advised to keep that fight for another day. Here is one quote I remember and which I googled for references about his view of slavery–an institution he hated but from which he profited. He was a complex man and one can’t judge him lightly. He said: “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest.” –Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVIII, 1782. ME 2:227 In other words, nature, God, circumstance, fortune all would eventually be against this nation regarding the institution of slavery–there was nothing right about it. Jefferson was an exhaustive writer of letters and he kept journals. Thus, we have a lot of his thoughts in his own words. Remember, too, that he was also constrained by the laws of Virginia from freeing his slaves. If he had freed Sally before his death, he would have had to send her out of state. One had to petition the state government before one could free a slave, proving some meritorious deed on the part of the slave that would justify such an assault on the economic system that kept so many living so comfortably. For this reason, many of Jefferson’s slaves were listed as simply “runaways” in his books. It is believed that at times he helped them to escape to another place and another livlihood.
I would have to go back through some books and find the citations for you, but if you read about Jefferson’s life, I think you will find this to be true. Because I supposed someone might bring up some of Jefferson’s personal flaws, i.e. his “affair” with Sally–and circumstantial evidence does seem to point out that such a liason did occur–I stated that I realize that he had his flaws–no one is perfect. But given the times and the circumstances both in the nation and his personal life (it is said that he promised his wife on her deathbed not to remarry and bring a stepmother in over her children), I think he comes out as a sympatheitc character with human flaws who did an awfully lot for his country. There was no Ken Starr to place him under oath and make him admit to such a liason. There was only a disgruntled newspaperman who accused Jefferson, but to whom Jefferson never replied. We know that Sally accompanied Jefferson to Paris, and there she was a free woman, if she chose to be. We are told that Jefferson promised her freedom upon his death, and freedom for her children (by him?) if she would return to America with him– I don’t think he took Sally to Paris with him to shine his shoes, although his daughter did go to Paris also, and I suppose the need for a female slave to accompany them could be justified on those grounds. All we know for sure is that black people today have DNA of Jeffersonian identification. Jefferson had two nephews who practically lived at his home during this time, however, and some suggest that the Jefferson DNA may have come from one of them. Based on my readings, I lean toward Thomas as being the father, although who can be certain? Yet, I wanted to emphasize the positive things Jefferson did for this country, and I wanted to stay away from this sort of thing–but if it did happen as I have outlined in here, I don’t see how anyone could not have sympathy for Jefferson and Sally. Sally, like a lot of women, was free to say “no” in Paris. She could have stayed–but like a lot of women, she had children and a life in America, no matter how we might judge that life. Sometiems it is not easy to walk away from a relationship. Being the mistress of Jefferson might have been a far, far better thing than for a former slave to try to start a new life in a foreign country–even though it is my understanding that she learned French. Sally was not unintelligent and may have been a companion in more ways than the obvious one to this intelligent, complex man. There are some things we cannot know, and have no right to know, and only those who are dead could answer our curiosity in this regarde-and perhaps curiosity alone does not deserve an answer. Sufficie it to say that we have no one of this man’s stature or intellect in Washington now–at least I am not aware of anyone. I stand by what I said, the man must be rolling in his grave.
The fundamental principle of health care programs in the USA is to deny medical treatment for the undeserving poor. The SCHIP progaram is a failure under this principle because there are undeserving children being trated without paying top dollar to insurance companies. Not to worry, the insurance cos. are able to deny or delay treatment and thus protect themselves against bankruptcy.
“Why should children in middle income families be subsidized when they are in middle income families?”
Now just what exactly is middle income? The poverty rates that have never been changed since the 1950s? Suppose you are earning $50,000 a year. You only get to see $25,000 because of federal,state,local taxes and other fees.
“Why should middle income people have to provide free health care for illegals, politican’s, ceos and other people who can afford to pay and write this off on their taxes.
The problem is lack of disposable income.
No, we do not all buy hdtv and ipods.
Also, why should we have to pay the bail out of the banks who made bad choices on poor risk loans?
This is just another ploy of this Administration to keep the poor poorer, get rid of the middle class, and make the rich richer.
It’s an absolute shame in a country as great as this one, we don’t have healthcare available for everyone!
My husband and I would be considered middle class Americans - we literally live paycheck to paycheck - we have some nice things - but we do not live in luxury by any means. We have a very small amount saved for our retirement - so we’ll probably work until the day we die.
The kids are now adults - so I don’t have to worry about health insurance for them - although my youngest daughter doesn’t have health cover and so desperately needs it!
Our health insurance, while it’s good coverage - hangs by a limb - if my husband’s job goes away (he’s in construction) - we will be uninsured!! Can we afford to pay health insurance out of our pocket? There is no way - my income would not support that kind of payment.
Our children are our future - and if we can’t take care of our own children - our country is no better than those countries we are fighting this war against!
Obviously, there’s a need for health insurance for middle class families - more and more corporations are taking away benefits such as health care or offering it at little or no discount to employees …
This Administration doesn’t care about it’s people - if you’re not corporate america, big oil, or rich - you’re screwed!!!
Initally, the purpose of corporations in America was intended to accomplish things that individuals could not. Things like building bridges or dams and other large projects. These corporations required a government charter and over-sight because they used public money. Overtime the purpose and function of corporations has changed and magnified to an unpresidented level. Corporations now by law are an investment tool and must produce a profit by externalization of costs. This means whatever a corporation does will be paid for by someone else.
Corporations are expanding thier roles in healthcare and if you think it bad now, it will only get worse. Mtn goat you are full of shit.
Corporate health care has eroded the level of care by so many levels. Longterm care comes to mind and senior med is leading the way. How they get people to put thier loved ones in these places is beyond me. People no longer know how to care for each other, and pretty soon there will be no choice. Just the illusion of choice.
Treefrog you are so correct. As someone that just spent the last two years of their life caring for my Mother after a stroke, I can tell you horror stories about our “health” care system that would give you goose bumps of horror. Mind you, my Mother had the best insurance available and still recieved slip-shod care and was allowed to lay in feces for hours on end unless I showed up and raised holy hell! Even then, it would sometimes take an hour to raise someone up to help ME clean her up. The cost for this fabulous care? A cool million is what the insurance companies paid collectively. The wounds the hospital put on her I ended up healing myself and it took me over nine months of FULL TIME care to accomplish it. I of course was not reimbursed for my wound care efforts, in fact, I lost a years wages to fix their screw ups. Lawsuit has been getting bounced around for over two years now and Mom in the interim has passed away from yet more medical screw ups.
“Corporations are expanding thier roles in healthcare and if you think it bad now, it will only get worse”
Can you ellaborateon this point Tree?
As someone mentioned in passing above, the public collectively pays for police and fire service. These things are seen as contributing to the public good. Why should health care be viewed differently?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge & wisdom HolyMoly. You grasp far more than the average person and your discourse is very helpful. If only there were more like you!
————-
It’s good to see that more and more people are realizing that the resources of this planet exist to be distributed to all people, so that everyone may flourish. It’s a crime for 1 or 2% of the people to own 90+ percent of the wealth. As a group, humanity will not know peace until we get the resource distribution mess straighted out and everyone’s basic needs become their guaranteed rights. This is the good fight!
=========================================
“Without sharing there can be no justice;
without justice there can be no peace;
without peace there can be no future.”
The World Teacher
holymoly,
You are correct in your observations about Jefferson, and thank you for the details. Jefferson indeed is an interesting individual, yet he can also be very complex as you aptly point out. I do not know if you have read the book “Thomas Jefferson and the Indians,” but it is a great read. Statesman such as Jefferson are impressive individuals, however, sometimes people put them on pedestals and should exercise caution in doing so. Anders Stephenson in “Manifest Destiny” also points out some of Jefferson’s complexities of his views and relations with indigenous peoples. He was sympathetic with indigenous peoples more than many other Presidents, however, he was more concerned about ensuring that there would be adequate land for settlers. Too many works to list here, but historians Richard White, James Merrill, Gary Nash, Henry Nash Smith also include this in many of their works (if you want, I will gladly post a list of the works with specific citations when I have a chance to do so). Nonetheless, if I had half of Jefferson’s intelligence and oratory skills, I would be very happy (I am happy now, but would be happier). But your post is impressive, and again I thank you for sharing your knowledge with me.
Thing is, Mtn Goat posits the State as the enemy. In fact, per our Constitution, the State is us. “We, the People” is how it starts. I’m comfortable with that.
holymoly, I appreciate your discourse on Thomas Jefferson, in whose writings. as I see the increasing peril our democracy faces, I am finding a great deal of wisdom and caution pertinent to our present times. As for his personal life, I wasn’t there and can only guess at what living in that society would be like.
claudius, I’m glad to have the references you posted.
I’ll share a story Michael Moore didn’t get to hear. It appeared in the Eugene Register-Guard a few years ago. An employee of a small company lost his job because his daughter became very ill with an expensive life threatening condition. His employer felt terrible dropping him at such a time, but explained that the company’s health insurer informed him that the group policy premiums would skyrocket if that employee was on the payroll. So now this family suddenly had a deathly ill little girl, no health care insurance, and no job.
I have heard several similar stories Kathy, one from our family, a cousin.
Say what they may about the Teamsters Union, they make sure the companies they have union representation have top notch, full family health care and the company’s pay the full premiums, the drivers pay their monthly union dues to the union and the dues ain’t much.
It doesn’t matter if one had a multi-million dollar health bill, the driver isn’t fired and the medical bills are paid. We didn’t need to see our primary doctor to go to a specialist either and we could have any doctor we desired. The Teamsters have the best health insurance in the world. If they can do it, why can’t everyone?
There is a problem, the high insurance rates for company owners can put them out of business. The costs of good health care have sky-rocketed in the past ten years and the insurance companies are making a killing. Their policies are also killing a lot of innocent citizens and their children, both medically and financially.
Kristina40
First let me say that I understand what you are saying by shared personal experience. Not just personal experience, my work as well. My condolences to you and your family for the loss of your mother.
I cared for my mother at home too. Except for rehabilitation after heart surgery and two strokes. She had hospice care at home the last two weeks. (the cost was $16,000.) It was a little over three years for me. I have sixteen years experience in a related field and it was still difficult. I would do it again despite the personal sacrifices you have to make.
I have worked now in assisted living for two years and nothing has proved more to me that I made the right choice.
You must be a brave person Kristina40.
Mastershake
About corporate expansion in healthcare. There are so many instances that it is hard to pick a place to start.
Ok, there are checks and balances in healthcare just like government. When one entity is responsible for all the levels that make up a service, it eliminates checks and balances except on a superficial level. I use the dishsoap explanation. If you go to a small market there is roughly 12 to 15 brands of dishsoap, but if you read the labels you find there are 10 made by the same company and maybe 2 others. They have different prices, brandnames, warnings but are basically the same thing and none of them are soap.
In longterm care (if you have money) you pay approximately $5,600 a month for a half room in a decent facility. It still smells pretty bad but there are industrial chemicals to deal with the odor. That is fine if you don’t mind living in a chemical environment. Don’t think you are going to go outside and get the health benfits of sunshine and fresh air. Life as you know it is pretty much over. You may not understand why but the person providing your care may have as many as 35 other people to care for, that person may very well be working thier second job because they don’t make a living wage caring for you. Even if they are a very caring person (and there are many) they are tired. They also might not speak the same language you do. Your medication comes from a company in Texas and it is the same company that has thousands of other people just like you. There is a local pharmacist you can call but they work for the company in Texas even though the names are different it is all the same thing, like the dish soap.
Then there is treatment and medication. This is another story.
There are some glaring examples, like 47 million people without healthcare access. The disparity of drug prices while other options exist. Those options are under attack.
I hope this helps explain what I meant about corporate healthcare.
For additional information read the article on Common Dreams entitled, Minnesota Law Sheds Light On Drug Companies.
Treefrog, I don’t feel particularly brave, I just did what had to be done and I knew nobody else could or would do it the way I would. I brought Mom back from that stroke and even though she remained for the most part paralyzed on her right side we did get her mobile enough to take lunch trips at least once a week and trips to visit the Greyhound rescue group she loved so much. I am happy to have had that extra time with her no matter the cost. I, like you, would do it all over again in a heartbeat for one more day with her…I had a limited amount of help from Home Health Care a couple days a week but other than that I was on my own with NO prior experience. I’m a bartender! I learned wound care from a very caring, sweet nurse at the rehab hosptial before she was released, also how to turn, bathe, cpr etc. Bless you for following the path to help other’s loved ones. Maybe some day I will follow it as well, for now I’m just too worn out and bitter…
You may not feel brave Kris, but you and Treefrog certainly are very special.