We Must Bomb Iran, Says US Republican Guru
NEW YORK - A senior foreign policy adviser to the Republican frontrunner Rudy Giuliani has urged that Iran be bombed using cruise missiles and “bunker busters” to set back Teheran’s nuclear programme by at least five years. 
The tough message at a time of crisis between the United States and Iraq was delivered by Norman Podhoretz, one of the founders of neoconservatism, who has also imparted his stark advice personally to a receptive President George W. Bush.
“None of the alternatives to military action - negotiations, sanctions, provoking an internal insurrection - can possibly work,” said Mr Podhoretz.
“They’re all ways of evading the terrible choice we have to make which is to either let them get the bomb or to bomb them.”
In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Mr Podhoretz said he was certain that bombing raids could be successful.
“People I’ve talked to have no doubt we could set it back five or 10 years. There are those who believe we can get the underground facilities as well with these highly sophisticated bunker-busting munitions.”
Although Mr Podhoretz said he did not speak for Mr Giuliani, the former New York mayor whom he briefs daily appears to have embraced at least the logic of his hard-line views.
During a visit to London last month, Mr Giuliani said Iran should be given “an absolute assurance that, if they get to the point that they are going to become a nuclear power, we will prevent them or we will set them back five or 10 years”.
Mr Podhoretz said: “I was very pleased to see him say that. I was even surprised he went that far. I’m sure some of his political people were telling him to go slow … I wouldn’t advise any candidate to come out and say we have to bomb - it’s not a prudent thing to say at this stage of the campaign.”
But Mr Podhoretz’s 77 years and his position as a pre-eminent conservative foreign policy intellectual means he can not only think the unthinkable but say the unsayable.
“My role has simply been to say what I think,” he said, explaining that he takes part in weekly conference calls and is in daily email contact with the Giuliani campaign.
He is the most eminent of a clutch of uncompromisingly hawkish aides assembled by Mr Giuliani. They include Daniel Pipes, who opposes a Palestinian state and believes America should “inspire fear, not affection”, and Michael Rubin, a former Pentagon official who has argued that Condoleezza Rice’s diplomacy is “dangerous” and signals American “weakness” to Teheran.
“Does Rudy agree with me?” Mr Podhoretz asked rhetorically. “I don’t know and I don’t wish to know.” But he added that “Rudy’s view of the war is very similar to mine.”
Mr Podhoretz’s thesis is that the war on terror is in fact World War Four and that the 42-year-long Cold War should be more properly described as World War Three.
Awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, America’s highest honour, by President George W. Bush in 2004, Mr Podhoretz later sought a rare one-on-on audience with the US commander-in-chief. They met in New York’s Waldorf Astoria hotel in the spring.
The author of the recent World War IV: the Long Struggle Against Islamofacsism spent about 35 minutes outlining his case for air strikes against Iran as Mr Bush’s then chief adviser Karl Rove took notes.
“Whether I had any effect on him I truly don’t know but I sure tried my best to persuade him,” he said.
“He was very cordial. He was warm. He listened. He occasionally asked a question as I made the case but he was truly poker faced.”
Mr Podhoretz left the meeting unshaken in his belief that Mr Bush would attack Iran before he leaves office.
“The spirit of the questions was not to try to refute or contradict what I was saying. I didn’t get any negative vibes.”
He said that now “the debate [over Iran] is secretly over and the people who are against military action are now preparing to make the case that we can live with an Iranian bomb”.
Neither Mr Bush nor Mr Giuliani, however, would countenance Teheran acquiring a nuclear weapon and either one would authorise military action once they were convinced Iran had passed the point of no return with its uranium enrichment programme.
“Unlike a ground invasion where you’ve got to mass hundreds of thousands of troops, it takes six months and everybody knows you’re mobilising, with air strikes, we’ve got three carriers in the region and a lot of submarines,” Mr Podhoretz said.
“I would say it would take five minutes. You’d wake up one morning and the strikes would have been ordered and carried out during the night. All the president has to do is say go.”
© Copyright of Telegraph Media Group Limited 2007.
God! Hitler would be proud of these guys. They’ve turned us into the Fourth Reich. Blitzkreig! Blitzkreig! Kill them in their beds before they know we’re at war with them. It worked for Hitler, what the Hell!
http://www.populistamerica.com/what_happened_to_my_country
The above was written a couple of years ago, but how much more true now.
Perhaps we could compromise with Bush and let him drop Norman Podhoretz on Iran.
“I would say it would take five minutes. You’d wake up one morning and the strikes would have been ordered and carried out during the night. All the president has to do is say go.”
After saying something this absurd, and in the face of the Iraq War’s failures, how can anyone take this neo-conman and fool seriously? First, he scorns the Constitution, namely Congressional war powers. Second, he imagines that even a 100% successful air strike would stop Iran from getting the bomb eventually. Third, he assumes Iran will not find anyway to punish the U.S. Fourth, he doesn’t care who might die.
I’d rather live with an Iranian bomb than a disgraceful “Pearl Harbor” attack by my country. There’s already a Pakistani bomb and that’s even scarier.
Mr. Podhoretz makes a case that actually appeals to about 50% of the voters in this country. Take ‘em on the offense, an overnight deal, quit talking around in circles, DO SOMETHING. (Bombs are fast and easy.)
He has the ear of the current president and someone, (Giuliani), who very well may be the next president. At CD, the debaters below who don’t like bomb, bomb, bomb will embrace a non-existent third party as their solution, and probably mention too that ANYONE but a Democrat should be in charge of the bombs. As surely as the sun comes up. And, as a result, someone other than a Democrat probably will indeed remain in charge, of bombs, and of The United States Supreme Court.
the disgusting creature knows that bombing iran will stupendously deepen the ME quagmire. he lies because he is an agent of those who work to destroy our country.
Were Norman Podhoretz and James Watson separated at birth? Or is it something that happens to a person at a certain age after being coccooned in a certain mindset? In any event, they would make great companions for each other at an asylum for the (not even politically) incorrect. Watson’s remarks forced him into a timely retirement. Maybe it’s time for us to think about retiring some others in a timely manner. Like Podhoretz. Or like bush. What say, Nancy?
“People I’ve talked to have no doubt we could set it back five or 10 years.”
Then what? Bomb them again? Nuke ‘em just to make doubly sure?
All these neocons including Guliani suffer from bad parenting…they were twisted in their youth
and like all neocons and conservatives they live in a constant state of fear and anger.
They are to be pitied for the loathsome creatures that they have become…they are inhumane in their thinking
Time wounds all heels…
Ah, to quote Jon Stewart, “What a perfectly handsome crazy person!”
Yeah, I like the compromise: let’s drop Podheretz from 35,000 feet over Iran. But then let’s do Perle, Wolfowitz, Cheney,Feith, Abrams, Rumsfeld, et al., in sum, all the signatories to the PNAC. And good riddens.
What’s so sad is that the mainstream media give these fools air time.
Whether Iran has the bomb or not is irrelevant: they could never use it. Both Pakistan and India have the bomb, and they found out they could never use it.
The people who promote unprovoked wars of aggression should not be given medals. They should be tried for treason, locked up, and the key thrown away.
Russia and China have already warned against bombing Iran. I think they are the only impediment standing in the way of the neocons bloodlust. And thank goodness for them.
“At CD, the debaters below who don’t like bomb, bomb, bomb will embrace a non-existent third party as their solution, and probably mention too that ANYONE but a Democrat should be in charge of the bombs.”
When the Democrats overwhelmingly support the exact same policy, as was the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia, they leave thinking people no choice but to go elsewhere.
(note for the slow-witted: Praising the policy while critiquing its method is still praising the policy.)
Norman Podhoretz is to War is what Gandhi was to Peace.
He’s symbolic of those Neo-Cons living in a box. What I’m not sure of though, is whether he realizes that he’s playing into the hands of Big Oil and the Military Industrial Complex? An invasion of Iran will boost oil profits and defence contracts to the point that it will bankrupt America. However Mr. Podhoretz actually may believe that Iran poses a threat to the U.S. Even if Iran produced a bomb similar to the one North Korea tested, it would be at least 15 years away, have no delivery system that could ever reach the U.S. and pale in comparison to the nuclear arsenals of Israel or the U.S. Not to mention that any use of even such a crude bomb against anyone would result in the country being nuked in return.
This comes down to racism and arrogance. People in the White House actually believe that they’re superior in intelligence, knowledge and everything else to any of their counterparts in the rest of the world.
The Dem Party huckster Daniel David (12:56) tries to base his daily commercial for Democrats on the “bomb Iran” issue. This might make sense if the Democratic Party was actually opposed to bombing Iran — but they’re not. Naturally, Daniel manages to overlook that “little detail.”
If Giuliani becomes president, the Democrats will grovel submissively at his feet, precisely as they grovel at Bush’s feet — protecting him from impeachment, censuring his critics, & quietly supporting his major initiatives (including attacking Iran). The Democrats will approve all Giuliani’s nominees — to the Supreme Court, & to everything else.
And if Hillary becomes president, the general drift of policy will differ only superficially from what Bush or Giuliani would have done. There will still be endless war, US bases all over the world, & funding for the Pentagon, CIA, & “Homeland Security” at the same general levels. There will still be a 2-party system limiting the population’s “choice” to either Republicans, or Republicans-in-sheep’s-clothing.
[quote]seriousprofessor October 27th, 2007 1:32 pm — note for the slow-witted: Praising the policy while critiquing its method is still praising the policy.[/quote]
Heh heh. I think even I got that one, professor. Now, if you can just wake up the rest of the “class” before the next exercise in pseudo-democracy, preferably in time for the nomination process, we might stand at least a small chance of accomplishing something.
I don’t really care if the revolutionary replacements still want to call themselves the “(New) Democratic Party” if it will keep Daniel David and other “loyalists” of his ilk on the side of the righteous — just so long as they actually remain there and support the underlying cause when the chips are down. Somehow, I have serious misgivings about that.
Gee…what’s new? Another Jew who wants to bomb Iran! Take a look at the names at the helm of the neocon movement.
Kristol, Wolfowitz, Pearle, Feith, Abrams, etc. What do they all have in common besides being war-mongering pricks?
Thy’re all Jewish, stupid, and they are directing our foreign policy through AIPAC. It’s time We the People wake up and see what’s happened to our country.
So when is Norman Podhoretz going to pick up his tin hat and rifle to lead the charge? Kudos to the photographer who accurately depicts hypocrites like Pudwhoretz for who they are: armchair warmongers. God forfend if they ever have to don boots and get them muddy.
buminfl, the majority of zionists and neocons are not Jews but gentiles. George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the legions of Christian zealots who voted for them and support the neocon/zionist movements are not Jews.
A good friend of mine, KEM PATRICK would say, “When we bomb Iran, we have shot ourselves in the face and the depression will begin shortly after, and this idiot Podhoretz says Bush was poker faced during their meeting. I believe shit faced would be a more descriptive term”.
If M.A.D. works between Russia and the U.S., why not for Iran and Israel?
[quote]commander_n_chimp October 27th, 2007 2:05 pm — buminfl, the majority of zionists and neocons are not Jews but gentiles …[/quote]
It’s best, I think, to stick to the criticizing the Zionist aims and activities that we oppose and leave aside the ethnic and religious aspects that are largely irrelevant in any case. Otherwise, we risk falling into the same trap as the “anti-Semitic” labellers whereby we render the terminology of our own debate essentially meaningless.
Why isn’t this terrorist in GITMO?
Have any of you planned out what you will do if it is WWW III?
What if there are nuclear strikes and Pakistan gets involved? and Israel gets hit and retaliates with more nuclear weapons?
Funny how the right can strike fear with the thought of Iran having a nuclear weapon and yet the idea of a nuclear war is suppose to be comforting?
Gee good thing we can bomb them and start a nuclear Holocaust …Well I can sleep tonight (NOT)
Wesley Clark, 4 star general and the former commander of NATO troops has a petition to stop the war in Iran here:
http://ga4.org/campaign/stopiranwar
“There has been a glaring, unfortunate, display of incompetent strategic leadership within our national leaders. As a Japanese proverb says, “Action without vision is a nightmare.” There is no question that America is living a nightmare with no end in sight”
Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, retired United States Army general who served as the commander of coalition forces in Iraq from June 2003 to June 2004.
What does the US have to gain if we attack Iran… A depression. Therefore, attacking Iran is stupid. The question becomes why is the US being driven to attack Iran? Who has anything to gain from this action? Which country close to Iran is threatened by Iran?
If you think about it, there is only one country threatened by Iran. Israel. Which lobby group has a huge influence on the US government? Israel. The US is going to be economically destroyed for Israel.
Don’t you just love it.
Isn’t there a US law against inciting violence . . . or does this apply only to US-designated “enemy combatants”? Oh, and another thing: the fact that the commander-in-chief in “the land of the free” can effectively be SUMMONED to a meeting in a Hotel by a war-pimp like Podhoretz says a lot about exactly who is in charge!
This is not in Israel’s interest either. That small nation will be destroyed if nuclear weapons are used on a large scale.
Right now the Bush legacy is very poor and he will be thought of badly in history. So how to recover from his mistakes? create a Holocaust? …crazy ..but that is imo what he is thinking. We have people who are incompetent and insane as our leaders.
I hope the military stands up to this. The military leaders can see what is going on.
The military leaders must speak up. One of the first targets would be the US military troops in Iraq.
Podoretz appears comfortable in his obviously posh quarters. Maybe that accounts for the smug look on his face. Or, is it that he realizes he could well be dead within a short time and wouldn’t have to face the consequences of a strike on Iran…with or without nukes. He knows, but is too timid and shallow to say it aloud, that a “war” with Iran based more trumped-up nuclear fears is only a cover for another step in the west’s mid-eastern oil grab. I have to imagine his reptile-brain is writhing these days, like so many others, with the realization that it’s really all over for western capitalism and, unfortunately, the civilization that bought into that hollow way of thinking.
Podoretz and his neo-con spawn knew early on that all of us have that reptilian brain that would react to threats and seek the most available shelter. He knew it would come down to not only a fight for political survival, but a fight to the last man, woman and child for the last scraps of resources…in this case, oil. He must have envisioned something like that scene from old westerns where the wagon train boss is trying desperately to get the settlers to circle their wagons against the “savage” hordes visible on the distant hills. I wonder if he could have imagined that the part of the wagon boss, today, would be played by a cabal of amoral lunatics such as BushCo? Where is Ward Bond when we need him?
Just as in the wagon train debacle, in which the settlers, with the excpetion of a few “clear thinkers”, scurried and stumbled around to find a haven in, around and under the wagons, people are reaching desperately for their own safety. Sadly, many foks seem willing to accept further war with bunker busters or nukes as their “salvation”. Of course, the old movies didn’t show the scenes where people drug their friends and neighbors out from under the wagons so they could save themselves. That scene hasn’t been added to the movie we see playing all around us today. But, it’s in the last stages of production and, unless we get very, very lucky, coming to a neighborhood near you. I think it might be time a brief intermission.
In the end, no amount of money and influence is going to shelter Podoretz when the Indians come knocking on his door. But I’m sure he’ll welcome them in for tea and biscuits. He looks like such a nice man.
The Podoretzes of the world have basically outlived their uselfulness, soon to be byproducts of the evolutionary parade. They should put their lizards on a leash, go takea nice, long nap and let those with some sanity and humanity have a shot at it. That goes for those in the BusCo Circus, as well.
I admit to living with despair and sadness over what we seem to have become and where we’re headed. And I don’t know what to do about it, although a few rudmentary ideas come to mind. It’s time to admit that the Indians aren’t going away any time soon and they’ll continue to resent the wagon train we represent. No amount of beads and trinkets are going to pacify them this time…and rightly so. They’ve been fooled before. It’s time to be honest with ourselves and admit the calamity errupting around us is one of our own making, the main ingredients being greed and shortsightedness. It’s the way we live: hyperconsuming and megawasting. We’re comfortable under our wagons, for the time being. But rule of cause-and-effect is coming for a visit like some old and bitter relative we’ve refused to acknowledge, and it’s not going to knock asking for tea and biscuits.
I think we must bomb Mr. Podhoretz and the evil neocons…with the force of international law, and throw all their evil asses into jail to rot for eternity
what does he care? He’s 77, old and senile, and will be dead soon,(may he burn in hell forever) and wont have to live with the consequences.
the GOP should be declared an internatioal terror organization and shut down for the betterment of humanity.
Poderetze is a product of this country. doesn’t sound like he has experienced war in any form so possibly one could have him embedded with the army in Iraq for some first hand experience. Belligerence increases exponentialy when seated in a safe comfie chair as does patriotism, poor GOP saddled with all the extremes of fascism and fighting another small country’s battles. Demons must abound in their dreams.
The GOP and some demo’s will insist on acting against the best interests of this country and many of the population cheered them on because they were going to get a tax break as well.
How would you feel if another country started debating whether to bomb, invade or nuke the US to stop “nucular” weapon manufacture.others? Is it any wonder the US is looked on as the Great Satan by many Muslims?
Let’s look at this from outside the box for one moment. This could be the next reality show. “Let’s Bomb ___________. You fill in the blank. The show could start off in baghdad as we already have a foothold. It would take the installment of live feeds from baghdadi homes and it would show the action when the bombs started dropping. Screems would be good but shots of anyone actually bleeding would of course have to be edited out. Or imagine the fun of seeing live video of iraqui homes getting their doors kicked down and invaded by US soldiers. We could add those old Batman and Robin sound effects and dialogue balloons for added effect. You know, bifffff, or whomp as head meets boot. The bubble caption could read, “Another terrorist bites the dust.” And then cut for commercial, maybe a tooth whitener ad with Bill Murray asking sarcastically, “Have you whitened today?” The next week it could be North Korea and the profits would be huge. Help there is even less than it is in China. Then Cuba, yeah, that would insure the Florida vote in 2008. The possibilities are endless. But only if we think outside the box.
Is it possible this person has too much money invested in the munitions industry?
Bombing Iran could well be the most dangerous, and stupid, thing the United States could ever do in the Middle East. Although the bombing might destroy all or most of Iran’s nuclear research facilities, there is a good chance that Iran would retaliate with missiles aimed at Israel. And there is little doubt that Iran has the capibility to do so.
Because Israel has nuclear weapons, it would probably respond by using them against Iran. I can’t imagine Israel sitting idly by while it is being attacked.
Is this really what the U.S. wants to risk in the Middle East? I would like to think we have more rational and intelligent leaders than that. But after seeing what we have done for the past five years, nothing could surprise me anymore.
Does anyone know what Henry Kissinger thinks about such an attack? He literally can see the President whenever he wishes, and his advice would probably be taken very seriously.
Frank Kendrick
Podhoretz is a criminal of the worst kind. Not only should anyone not take him seriously, he should be confined to an institution for the criminally insane.
I say the government rounds up Podhoretz, all the signers of PNAC, all donors to AIPAC, as well as Joseph Lieberman and draft them and bring them to Afghanistan along the Iranian border. They will serve as a “neoconvervative-zionist” private army.
When they are brought to the Iranian border(assuming they aren’t dragged kicking and screaming from their comfortable homes) in Afghanistan, they will bravely march across the border into Iran. However, if they should change their minds, turn back, mutiny or desert, they should be executed immediately by American soldiers. There is currently a 94 year old marathon runner, so why not a 77 year old soldier who is a true-believer?
I wish the whole world would freakin’ CALM DOWN for one minute….Is Iran ever going to nuke Israel? No, because in “less than five minutes” Iran would be toast from multiple response-directions. Is Iran ever going to nuke Europe? No, same reason—over and over. And the so-called “reporters” we have from top to bottom work on the #1 assumption of the preposterous opposite: be afraid, we must not let them be equals (on the oily playing field); we’ve screwed them so many times (Shah, etc.) that Iran cannot ever be trusted, etc. No junkie wants his supply in the hands of people whom he has robbed (and worse) already….North Korea’s nukes and million-man-army:—Wow. What are they going to do, invade China? Sneak up on L.A.? Why can’t anybody remember what brought places like Libya to the world table—a place in the world, remember? “His-story” has FUCKED OUR MINDS on war as the answer to everything. We’re waging “a diplomacy offensive”…..I live in the STUPIDEST country on the planet!
You can bet your last dollar that Iran’s nuclear research facilities are far underground, far away from the known entrances, so I don’t think any kind of non-nuclear bomb or even a nuclear bomb will “reach” the Iranian nuclear program.
A nuclear weapon used on Iran would kill millions in the middle East, including untold numbers in next door Israel. Given the prevailing winds, the radioactive fallout could spread more than a thousand miles southeast, killing people in Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, and other surrounding countries. The URL below shows the likely result of using a 1 megaton nuclear bunker buster on Iran:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/nuclear-bunker-buster-rnep-animation.html
And there’s this:
The latest information I have had from the followers of Bush is that he has demanded and received permission to use nuclear “bunker busters” in Iran in a preemptive strike. As a nuclear veteran (Operation Redwing, Bikini, 1956) I can affirm that this is absolute madness. The “bunker buster” is a cute sounding name for a nuclear horror. Air bursts are horrible enough, doing incredible destruction through heat, shock and high initial radiation. The fallout from an air burst is registered around the world. A surface or subsurface burst is even deadlier and more long lasting.
The Castle-Bravo blast at Bikini in 1954 was a fifteen megaton surface blast. It blew a hole over a mile wide and four hundred feet deep in the atoll, completely obliterating the island and vaporizing over thirteen billion cubic feet of coral, rock and water, sending it in a radioactive cloud extending into the stratosphere. The fallout over the atolls downwind was devastating to the people and ecology there. All of that material is rendered extremely radioactive and as it cools it condenses to fall as rain or radioactive “snow” which contaminates everything it touches. The effects are felt worldwide.
Firing der Bush’s bunker busters in Iran, or anywhere else for that matter, will vaporize hundreds of thousands of tons of earth, water and rock and send this radioactive soup downwind to kill and sicken whole populations. Those immediately downwind will die quickly, in hours or days. Those further downwind will take longer. The global incidences of cancers and disease will again rise markedly. The land downwind will remain contaminated and unusable for generations. If there were deep shelters, it has been postulated by the designers that the bunker busters would not penetrate deeply enough to affect them. I imagine that would initiate the attack theory of sending one nuke after another into the same hole. Picture the intensity of the radioactive disaster that would perpetrate on the area.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=OSB20060314&articleId=2093
This is a pr problem for the Pentagon and White House and assorted other wanna-bombers.
First they tried the nuclear threat from Iran stuff. But the IAEA kept saying there was no threat, no evidence of a threat.
So they switched to blaming Iran for supplying weapons to people who are killing American military people. Pent and White House say they will attack Iran for supplying the insurgents.
So if they attack to stop the weapons supplies, but hit the nuclear facilities, (which pretty well everyone figures have nothing to do with nuclear weapons), how does that stop the weapons supplies?
The bomb Iran bunch are a complex group.
So it’s a tough pr job for the white House and Pentagon.
Maybe they should all just go back to the original anti Islam Crusade that they started with…maybe second time round that will resonate…
In 2005 Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued a fatwa saying the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons was forbidden under Islam. The fatwa was cited in an official statement by the Iranian government at an August meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna.
Now somehow this little piece of information manages to keep from being reported in the west.
Whether Iran is seeking a nuclear weapon or not is something that no one can say with any certainty. What is almost certain is the effect bombing Iran will have. It wold most surely have the same response as when Israel illegally bombed the Osirak reactor in Iraq. In that case, it jump started a nuclear weapons program that Iraq didn’t have but suddenly realised it needed.
Were we to adapt the neocon philosophy, we would all have to go out assassinating all neocons before they were allowed to get us in any more messes. (Disclaimer: Only a neocon would be stupid enough to think those words constitute a threat and not an insult.)
The Old Horseshit Testament.
lol
Beating and Killing Slaves: Although an owner could beat a male or female slave, she/he would have to avoid serious injury to eyes or teeth. The owner would have to avoid beating the slave to death. But it was acceptable to beat a slave so that he/she was mortally injured and died a day or so later: Exodus 21:20-21 “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property].”
*”Emancipation of Slaves: Slaves in ancient Israel were automatically emancipated after 6 years of slavery, but only if they were Jewish.”
“…Foreign slaves were out of luck.”(see Exodus 21:1-4, Deuteronomy 15:12-18, *Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
(NIV)*”Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was very much a part of life in Palestine and in the rest of the Roman Empire during New Testament times.
What I don’t understand is why in hell we put up with “neocons?”I think we should start kicking their asses, conficating their bank accounts, closing their businesses, and then ship them over to Iran and let the Iranians have their way with them.
Why won’t Bill Maher, John Stewart, Randi Rhodes, or any liberal on the MSM mention Zionists, Likudniks or AIPAC? I don’t remember anybody, not even Amy Goodman refer to “They who must not be named”. How can we pretend pro-Israel reactionaries don’t share half the blame for the Iraqi Holocaust or ignore that these are the people pushing for nuking Iran and WWIII?
The neoconservatives are largely Jewish, and the reason is to be found in Jeremi Suri’s “Henry Kissinger and the American Century”: since German Jewish immigrants were the most reliably anti-Nazi soldiers & officials, the never-well-investigated Jewish right-wing developed the template by which all international conflict was to be understood as new Hitlers readying the further persecution of Jews.
Libby, Ledeen, Feith, the Podhoretzes and Kristols, David Frum, the Pipes brothers, I.M. Peretz, all the leading lights & funders of neoconservatism were all in flight from the old Jewish left, wanting to prove, like the old Hollywood moguls, that Jewishness=American imperialism — whether anti-communist or, now, anti-”islamofascist”, and along with Abe Foxman & Sumner Redstone, they casitgate as “defeatist” or “anti-semitic” those Jews who come out of the 19th century social progressive mold.
Anti-semitism, the real variety, takes root when we conceal those who use Jewish identity as a means of manipulation, extortion & intimidation, largely against other Jews but also against Gentiles who are themselves trying to “perfect” Jews.
It’s like pretending that most Mafiosi weren’t really Italian or Sicilian.
What’s a conservative intellectual? A neocon who once read a book?
Perhaps someone would be so kind as to bomb little Normie and his friends and their families. Then let’s see if those that survive stop talking insanity. They probably won’t. And neither will the Iranians stop doing whatever they need to do to feel secure in a world dominated by sociopaths like Bush and little Normie.
I don’t think they’ll use nukes on Iran. If nothing else, they don’t want to irradiate Israel. Plus, they have super powerful conventional bombs that can penetrate into installations deep underground. Still, it would be insanity for the US to attack Iran. There is no basis for it in int’l law or morality, whether or not Iran is going to get a nuclear weapon. The end result of all this US bellicosity and war mongering will only be the more rapid decline of its empire, its isolation by the world community, and economic collapse. That is the path the neo-Cons have set us on, with generous enabling from the lily-livered, spineless Democrats.
Why is it no surprise that this man is sitting in an armchair? (No doubt he will later “toddle safely home and die - in bed.” Googling that quote: priceless.)
A neocon intellectual? What might that be? If these people were not so dangerous, they’d be a joke!
You people don’t understand, we have to fight them over there before they attack us over here. Oh wait, they’re already setting CA on fire! See? Bush was right, oceans no longer protect us.
Today’s America is the perfect breeding ground for a bacteria like Norman Podhoretz. 95% of the serial killers live here, America consumes 80% of the illegal drugs and their waste line gets bigger by the hour. Their favorite song is John McCain’s Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran. Worse, most Americans believe there’s a dime’s worth of a difference between Republicans and Democrats. The Empire is collapsing.
voting for Nader will solve this problem.
When’s Judeo-Fascism Awareness Day?
stepfour I think it is right after we bomb Tehran, and destroy all those nasty Islamofascists, and leave the Israeli-fascists to their dirty, underhanded, callous, schemes. It might just surface then, but with the media coverage we get, I doubt it.
Set them back five years?
How many generations has this Guardian of Zion set the United States back so far?
What will be left for humanities children besides a Neo-Stone Age?
Clearly, we need a new distraction.
Otherwise certain people might be prosecuted for certain actions. Friends protect friends.
Within the inner sanctums these guys are thinking long-term, projecting 5, 10, 20 even 50 years out. It’s called strategic scenario contingency planning. And, having computers helps alot.
You think the elites don’t know that humpty dumpty is beginning to slip - bigtime? …or think that the earth’s ecology isn’t going to tank? Medical, economic, massive PTSD, rampant lawlessness = Karmuppance coming at us like a bat out of hell.
A world in chaos will naturally call for much deeper and wide-ranging, draconian measures…”for our own good.”
A “benevolent” world dictatorship gonna begin to look mighty good to bunches of folks. Say what you will, Bushco. has made a very good start on this longer-term agenda.
“Now is the time for all good men (people) to come to the aid of their country (and world).”
So talk about this stuff with someone you normally wouldn’t; and encourage them to do the same. Or read Elgin’s Promise Ahead. Or go within and listen for the “still small voice within,” the place where each of us knows what the next unique “right action” would be.
Now is the time to extend ourselves just a bit ourside our comfort zones - for the love of humanity, animals, plants…the Earth - deep down I believe we really do know the drill.
For some reason I am picturing a scene from Terminator (1, 2?) where Ahnold shows up to protect the woman and boy, and says, in an urgent Ahhnold-like voice: “Come with me if you want to live!!”
Testify and sing it loud:
The time for “right effort” is now.
I know we each can do something today, and then again tomorrow.
Can’t we just go mob stomp this douchebag and his son? Why the fuck do I have to live with dickheads like this fucking it up for everyone? How many battles has he or his pissant ancestors fought? He’s a big fag with a small dick who gets wood when others fight and , oh mercy, bleed.
One last thing…what is the US military’s fucking obsession with ‘bunker buster bombs’ that penetrate deep into the Earth? Any shrinks want to chime in? I recall vividly how Powell and others kept telling the world that Saddam and Iraqi’s had incredible labyrinths of underground weapons of mass destruction production labs and Dr. Doom control centers…….and then we find Saddam in a spider hole? We need to seriously think about upholding our citizen duty to protect the Constitution and destroy whatever forces abuse, alter or dishonor it…..that’s the hefty responsiblity we were given by the Founders (see 2nd Amendment for some evidence). Oh, gotta go, there’s a black helicopter outside my window.
Neo Conmen are at it again. Iraq all over and as always, and the “Western regimes are whiter than white”. All this false bravado will fall flat on the US regime once again.
What about the Israeli WMD?
What can I say after all these tributes to reason and planetary sanity? What can anyone say to those who proudly lead us to define “enemy,” and use “enemy” as target, to eliminate “enemy,” to conduct a campaign of genecoide/holocaust against “enemy,” and to bless such actions in the name of “freedom” and “democracy”? I say that the Congress must act against the administration, disarm it, and reinstate the Constitution and the humanitarian values promised in it. And if the Congress does not act, but continues to “say,” we, the people must act, in ways that will move us all to accept the responsibility to save our country, a responsibility given to us by those who signed the Declaration of Independence.
Podhoretz is a lunatic, but if that’s where we seek council, what does that make us……Pathetic, ludicrous, disingenuous, abysmal, despicable, etc,etc.
BUT, logically and with deference to the old adage of “follow the money”, Nothing sells distraction from an imploding economy like the ravages of WAR. WAR will make ‘em forget about a dollar dropping like a lead weight. WAR will make them forget about the recent Wall Street study that shows that fraud is in every transaction at every trading desk. War will make them think their President is not a nerdowell. War will make them not realize that there is not but one of their congressmen who is worth the salary he draws from the TAX PAYERS(DK). War will help them forget about the lives wasted in Iraq AND IN NEW ORLEANS. War will get their attention off the fact that all the Evangelicals are beginning to think that the sum total of their lives has been a perpetual SNIPE HUNT. WAR will make them forget that the KEY STONE COPS LATER BECAME THE DEPARTMENT OF FEMA AND HOME LAND SECURITY. feel free to add………
VDP — Sorry, my friend, but I feel compelled to say this:
If you don’t realize that you are Podhoretz and Podhoretz is you, (yukky as this prospect may seem!) then IMHO you don’t have a clue about the direction we humans need to take — if we are to ever have a hell in snowball’s chance of climbing out of the hole we’re still digging ourselves into.
I do get your feelings, though.
Often feel the same damn way myself.
Problem is - acting on or even believing in those feelings only gonna create more of the same. Separation from the core of our common humanness, that’s a bottom-line problem.
In some ways I don’t like what I’m sayin’ here any more than I expect you will.
“Are you saying that underneath our seemingly massive differences we are one?”
Yep, ‘fraid so.
A question: You able to dance on more than one level of awareness at the same time? It can be a learned skill.
In sum:
“If you want money for minds that hate,
All I can tell you brother is, you’ll have to wait.”
We are not allowed to criticize… when one tries to discuss the reality … others try to twist it to serve their own ends. They of course think they are right, so in their minds twisting the debate to serve their ends is always excusable.
Sane minds can see that extremists whether a Podhoretz or an antisemite, while serving different aims, nevertheless think in the same thought processes. Attempts to discuss an issue immediately get side tracked by extremists into extremist talk.
One can’t criticize the extremist leadership in Israel because extremists say …”It’s the jews!”. No it isn’t …it’s the leadership. Equally one cannot criticize the extremists amongst the Palestinians or others because other there will be the inevitable opposing extremists who will say “It’s the muslims!”
At the risk of disturbing …um… all sides. We are being made blind by the blinders extremists insist that we wear. To see an issue clearly, remove all the names, the labels and the predigested assumptions …and look for what extremists don’t want you to see.
Another way is to proof out our thought processes by applying the ‘put on the other shoe’ test. Immediately extremists on both sides try to get you to reject that. The “we are not them because they do ‘this” rationale. Look at the thought process and if it is a formula, the sane recognize that reality is never so simple. Reality is ALWAYS complex… but no to extremists. For them it is simple. 70% in the USA oppose what the Bush administration have done and would do. Does Bush and Co. still represent all Americans, including many posters on CD who are Americans? They live here so therefore, by extremist thought processes, all are collectively guilty…including themselves? They don’t see what they don’t want to see… simple as that. It is as if no one opposes… yet we do.
Try this > Substitute the extremist leadership in Israel for our own and see how saying “It’s the jews!” sounds? “It’s the Americans they want this!” No we don’t… our leadership does. Lots of jews oppose the extremists in the Israeli government. Just like lots of Americans oppose their own government’s extremists. Those who oppose Bush’s positions in America and live here somehow don’t include themselves in the broad brush they would paint others with. The > “They are all like that” nonsense.
Just because you are jewish doesn’t mean you support what Israel does, just like if you are an American that doesn’t mean you support Bush and just because you are muslim that doesn’t mean you want to support Al Queda etc.! Extremists don’t want clear thinking because they simply want… what they want.
To those of us who fight and struggle to keep our heads above the muddied waters of spin and manipulation, to work for change, I say > keep your heads up real high because the extremist thinking is drowning many.
As for Podhoretz and his ilk… remove the labels and current spin and you’ll notice …he is saying what he has always been saying years before the current spin. Yeah. The neocon plan was always Iran. Right now they have found a new causa belli in pushing the “we can’t wait”/mushroom cloud scenario …um…old causa belli scenario?
But when you try to address these empire lovers (america should be feared not admired etc.) extremist positions…some vile idiot starts screaming about “the jews!” instead, as if all jews simply don’t want peace. Just like when you try to criticize them (from another side) some vile idiot starts screaming “the muslims!” as if all muslims don’t want peace and are all terrorists.
Discern for yourself what is just and right as you believe within yourselves. The truth will set …everyone free. Spin puts on blinders and when ‘blindered’ one becomes blind to the truth.
Peace.
W.H. Auden wrote in 1939:
“I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.”
Zionism from its inception has used vicious and violent methods dealing with the Palestinians which proves Auden’s poem to the teeth.
For centuries, Jews were persecuted in Europe; so once when they were in a position to deal with others, the oppressed became the oppressor.
Norman Podhoretz callous remark reeks with contempt and total disregard for other human beings; otherwise, how can any sane human being be so blind to the consequences (death and destruction) of his utterance!
The sad state of affair is the fact that Israeli’s right wingers (the Likud Party which is very similar to Hezbollah) and their American cohorts devise and advise our political leaders in our Middle East policies!
The Bush-Cheney cabal must be stopped before another unnecessary pre-emptive disastrous war is upon us.
“They’re all ways of evading the terrible choice we have to make which is to either let them get the bomb or to bomb them.”
What do you think a rational Iranian would do in the light of such a direct and imminent threat?
Presumably, this right to a pre-emptive strike only applies to America alone?
It seem as though it has never crossed the collective neocon mind that America does not have a monopoly on the right to a pre-emptive strike!
OK, now this gets into the truly suicidal. Have these gentlemen never studied traditional warfare? Not even for a moment? One, you need funds. Two, you need weapons. Three, you need troops. You need more than that but without those, you really can’t make war. If a hostile nation stormed our home border, we probably could not muster a proper defense of home ground because our military is stretched so thin, yet these jackasses are talking as though our resources and abilities are limitless. Are they insane? Just plain out insane? It’s the only explanation I can think of.
I have a kid’s question. Why does Podhoretz hate Iranians? Why does he want to kill them?
I do not understand individuals who hate entire groups of people enough to want to kill the whole group. That’s what Hitler did. He thought Podhoretz’s people were scum. Is that why Podhoretz wants to kill Iranians? Did he take on Hitler’s mantle?
It must be strange for the stupid imperialists to know that their whole evil scheme is going to fail absolutely and yet they persist in continuing with the charade that they are still the ones who are dictating policy. As it stands, they are only reacting to the declining circumstances of their world position and, unfortunately for some people, the trash that runs the U.S. are not intelligent enough to know how to get back on their old evil track so they lash out irrationally in the hope that death and destruction will somehow right their ship, a strategy which has always worked for them before. Even though the past leaders of those gangs of morons, such as Thatcher and Clinton and all of the other worthless human trash, pretend to be optimistic in that they always write memoirs in which they praise their counterparts with compliments that are always contrary to their real traits, they and that whole gang of human refuse know that the end is coming swiftly for their kind.
But then, it’s little wonder that hardly any citizen in the capitalist world sphere can have an appreciation of the enormity of the change which is about to descend on them, considering that the capitalist’s propagandistic media machine, such as CNN, BBC and Fox and the others, never publish anything that could allow the viewers to have a true picture of what’s going on in their (my) world. From a strategic point of view, Latin America, which the U.S. had thought was safely in it’s pocket, has rejected the U.S. and is well on it’s way to becoming a union such as the EU. They have just set up a continental bank which is headquartered in Venezuela and they are building a pipeline that will stretch from north to south and east to west in South America and they will be going with it into Central America. It is these type of actions which will solidify the socialist base and they are the same reasons why the U.S. trys to, unsuccessfully, vilify Hugo Chavez, because he is the principal proponent of Latin American unity and socialism for the twenty-first century.
After Latin America is successful, Africa will follow suit when they see the splendid results. You can see what happens next, the old domino theory, but this time it’s a real cascade and the capitalists will not be able to survive as a system once they have no mono-cultivators to exploit and the whole world sees the quality of life in the socialist countries eclipsing that of the capitalist gulags.
Only 10-20 million Jews in the whole world — and a large portion of our foreign policy, costly wars at our expense, and grossly exaggerated media attention is all riveted toward their ends.
We live in surreal times indeed. Why don’t they manage their own affairs, and we’ll get back to ours as well?
One would almost be led to wonder whether Bush is Jewish himself.
Why do progressive people keep thinking that the godless nation of Israel is somehow running the U.S.? The U.S. made Israel and that fascist state is nothing more than a forward outpost of U.S. foreign policy. It is maintained by the U.S. because it keeps tensions and discord high in the Middle East and that is exactly the kind of divisive policy that the U.S. has always pursued in every region of non-white citizenry that it’s ever been involved with. The reason Israel is so well armed is because they are the U.S. in the way that Hawaii and Puerto Rico are the U.S. The only practical difference is that Israel is in a high tension zone so it gets lots of press coverage slanted to make Israel appear the victim.
To all here who appear to be in a state of denial regarding the Jewish (Zionist, or whatever you want to call it) influence on American foreign policy, just Google PNAC (Project for a New American Century) and see who its
authors are. Kristol is one name that’s high on the list.
anney said:
“I have a kid’s question. Why does Podhoretz hate Iranians? Why does he want to kill them?
I do not understand individuals who hate entire groups of people enough to want to kill the whole group. That’s what Hitler did. He thought Podhoretz’s people were scum. Is that why Podhoretz wants to kill Iranians? Did he take on Hitler’s mantle?”
It’s interesting you brought this up. Iran was formerly “Persia” and also thought to be the “home” of the original “Aryan” race. Does Aryan sound familiar? It is also said, Hitler and the Nazi’s took the swastika symbol from what at one time was an Aryan symbol. Hitler and his German friends are not Aryan, they were wannabe Aryans. I would say the crazy old fool blames Iran for Hitler…
FOUNDER OF NEOCON MOVEMENT:
US ‘MUST BOMB IRAN’
How about a headline saying something like:
“MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DESIREOUS OF PEACE AND JUSTICE CALL FOR THE BOMBING OF WASHINGTON” ??
dreaming is free!
Norman Podhoretz, like Alan Derserowitz, shows shameful qualities. Once these men were proud examples of liberal progressive human rights advocates. Now they are shameful dregs of depravity.
People like Podhoretz and Hitler have made choices in their lives that have led them to hate themselves and their lives. They encourage other people to make choices that will lead them to hate themselves and their lives too. They do this out of hate.
They could stop hating themselves and their lives, but are not willing to do the work that would require.
People who follow them do so because they are frightened and confused and because they tell themselves that doing what someone else tells them to do is not the same as doing it themselves. (This is actually how Podhoretz and Hitler got started.)
They are no different then you or I; only the circumstances of their lives and/or the choices they have made are different.
I would like to personally send a thank you note to Russian President Vladimir Putin for recognizing that our president is like “a madman running around with a razor blade”.
Putin’s warnings and lack of cooperation with the sanctions, I hope will accomplish what the Congress and all the Peace Marches on Washington would be Unable achieve, stop George from bombing Iran.
Whatever happened to M.A.D. every country in the world knows that if they even throw a firecracker our way it will be picked up by satellite and within minutes that country would be vaporized.
We are not going to be able to stop these rouge nations from developing a Bomb anymore than we were able to stop India and Pakistan it is just a matter of a few years here or there.
If we are going to share this planet with other countries for the next couple of millenniums, doesn’t it make sense to try to be neighborly, use a little diplomacy, make friends with these nations? I am sure we have a lot in common like the desire to keep breathing and avoid world annihilation.
What happened to News in Common Dream News and Views? We seem to complain about mainstream media failing to give coverage to progressive views, and yet there is nothing here about the big anti-war demonstration on Saturday 27. What gives?
There’s no question that both Podhoretz and Jew-liani are part of Israeli fifth column in the U.S.
By the way, religion has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.
Evil is not defined by religion, race or sex. It is an individual trait that can only be recognized individually. To brand any religious sect, or even to implicate any religious sect, by the actions of some individuals which are associated with any particular sect is not fair and it is not honest.
No doubt, there are many evil people involved with the U.S. who are denominated Jewish. And there have been a high number of such people in influencial positions in the U.S., especially since the U.S. championed Israel after the mass murder scheme of the Nazis, because their close interaction in the Israel project required it. But the telling fact is that the U.S. was just as evil in their dealings with other nations and peoples before there was an Israel so the fact that many of the people who assist the U.S. now are Jewish is simply a demographic and cannot be construed as a condemnation of Jewry or even as a principle motivator for the U.S.
If you need an example of just how rotten they were before there were a lot of Jews in the U.S. administration then you should read “A LITTLE MATTER OF GENOCIDE” by Ward Churchill, copyright 1997, published by CITY LIGHTS books, and then you will learn of a real genocide that qualifies as a Holocaust, as opposed to the mass murder of Jews by Nazis which is so small in comparison to the near extermination of the U.S. indigenous peoples that to give the killing of Jews that exclusive label is bordering on fraud.
Way back up near the top of these postings, somebody had a good idea. Why not take the whole Executive,Legislative and Judicial Branches, except for those who are outspokenly anti war, load them into a big transport. Equip each one with a parachute pack with a brick in it. Stencil on their shirts, “I’m Sorry!”
Now, either fly over and carpet bomb Iran with them, or fly over DC and carpet bomb it. Either way, we would git rid of the major problems that are crippling our nation. A few hours of scrubbing and sluicing would clean up the mess and these bastards would have a closeup of what they were advocating for the rest of the world.
Then, perhaps we could find some people who revered the Constitution and would put it back in the Halls of Government, intact and functioning.
Once that was done, then we could rein in the megabuckmeisters and their huge corporations and get our country back. (A pipe dream, but what a nice one!)
militantliberal - why stop with Normie? There’s a long list of deserving droppables!
Repulsive old swine!
Dreamertoo — I appreciate your comment; I believe there’s alot of truth in your words.
You wrote:
“People like Podhoretz and Hitler have made choices in their lives that have led them to hate themselves and their lives. They encourage other people to make choices that will lead them to hate themselves and their lives too. They do this out of hate.
“They could stop hating themselves and their lives, but are not willing to do the work that would require.
“People who follow them do so because they are frightened and confused and because they tell themselves that doing what someone else tells them to do is not the same as doing it themselves. (This is actually how Podhoretz and Hitler got started.)
“They are no different then you or I; only the circumstances of their lives and/or the choices they have made are different.”
——————————————-
I noticed that a number of comments above included questions - Why? How?
If you are at all interested in how this craziness can come into existence — you might want to check out the book “Bush on the Couch,” written by Justin Frank, MD.
It is a psychological study of one prototype, namely, George W. Bush.
What purpose does this ‘news story’ serve but to reinforce the idea (already planted in the mainstream media) that bombing Iran might not be such a bad idea? No surprise that the London Telegraph that publishes it is an avowedly conservative newspaper. But - sadly - no surprise also that the supposedly progressive British daily newspapers (The Guardian and The Independent) are not blowing whistles that everyone can hear.
Why bomb Iran? Because they freakin’ can. Absolute power has already corrupted these guys, absolutely.
Fasten your seatbelts,ladies and gentlemen. Here we go again…..”CAKEWALK II”
Not to split hairs, but Leo Strauss is generally considered the founder of neo-conservatism. It’s just unnerving that Podhoretz and the rest of his slimy ilk are bent on imperialism by spreading fear of the “islamo-fascists”: their term used ad nauseum as rhetoric to promote their violent agenda. They are this generation’s conquistadors who view each conquered land as a brand new market ready to exploit. They don’t get that orphans of those murdered in their cause make lousy customers.
“You’d wake up one morning and the strikes would have been ordered and carried out during the night.”
Then you’d brush your teeth listening to news about Iranian missles barraging US carriers in the gulf, Iranian tanks firing on US soldiers in Iraq, and Vlad Putin saying the opposite of
“sorry for calling the US a madman with a razor blade the other day.”
Some part of Podhoretz’s 77 year old brain is either a walk in chamber for Satan or has imploded in strange isolation from his ability to superficially cogitate and communicate.
Who in the hell is this nasty old fossil anyway? He is elected to what position? He is a representitive of which state?
He needs to be put down as in put to sleep.
The neocons and zionazis are creating terrible blowback for Jews everywhere.
I saw some talking head TV show after the Iranian President talked at Columbia. The pundit talked about how crazy and dangerous Ahminejad (sp) was. His proof: Ahminejad questions the holocaust and denies the existence of gays in Iran, both admittedly kooky. But his solution, bomb them back to the stone age, seemed totally non-linear. I thought, “This guy is crazy”. Then he said, “My friend Norman Podhoretz has been suggeting this for a while now”. Then I understood. A neocon shill pretending to be a journalist. And the other people on the show just smiled and nodded their heads. I thought, “We’re hosed if people swallow this stuff so easily”. Then I see the Republican debates with Rudy, Mitt, John and Fred fighting for the “I hate Iran the most” award and Hillary is little or no better. Unless Stephen Colbert (please, oh please!) gets elected one of these people will probably have his finger on the button in about 16 monghts. Folks, we’re hosed.
The world is hosed…
AmeriKKKa is the real threat to global peace….
We’re hosed…..
send this disgusting old turd to Iran and let him do the job himself if he thinks bombing is so important. a human trashbag.
he’s not a “founder”, he’s part of the anus that extcreted out “neo-conservatism”, the vile waste product that infects our nation.
“But Mr Podhoretz’s 77 years and his position as a pre-eminent conservative foreign policy intellectual means he can not only think the unthinkable but say the unsayable.”
which means what? means you ain’t shit Mr Pusswhore. not an elected official. not a senator, not a law enforcement officer and not a military man. a little asshole with a big mouth. i’m tired of our nation having to put up with these self appointed guardians of malevolent bullshit. “pre-eminent”, my ass. Pre-Enema. He should be scorned with every cell of the body
Why does this Mr P think a few bombs Nuclear or not will do anything in Iran?
The only thing it might do is unite the Iranians even more.
Anybody remember the Iran and Iraq War where they charged each other and were slaughtered. Look at us in Iraq ?
The contry is worse off then under Saddam. Innocents die everyday just like with Saddam.
Now we have Turkey ready to invade the Kurds up north.
This Mr. P just ain’t with it.
If we use nukes all that will do is give the go ahead for other countries to use them.
We sure do not have the armies to invade Iran and set up another puppet government like Iraq;s.
If we attack Iran 911 in our country will llok like a picnic. We will have people exploding themselves in shopping malls all over this country.
The flow of oil will almost stop from the Arab countries,
Then what Mr. P? Your only choices are to nuke even more along with Israel sending their nukes.
Methinks we were better off with The Cold War.
Oh, I forgot the leader Of Russia is rattling nukes claiming if we put a missle shield in Poland we may well have another type Cuban Missle Crisis . Are we going to nuke Russia too Mr. P?
Anyone want to bet Mr. P’s stock portfolio is chucked full of defense stocks?
PodHORRORetz spoke at a book signing here in NYC recently. The audience attacked him verbally re: PNAC documents, 9/11, NeoCon ideology, the present Iraq/Afghanistan quagmire… a lot of loud insults. It was great. Americans are not so dumbed down, after all. Only a small number actually supported his views. He started yelling at those who were yelling at him, telling them to shut up. Someone videotaped it (probably on youtube) following him out into the street and they continued their barrage of truthful insults against this evil f#*k.
Attack journalism, alive & well in the US of A!
Israel is surrounded and the first war it loses is the last war it gets to fight. It will be gone (and the US will be leading the effort to defend and relocate the refugees). So you can expect its supporters and lobbyists to be a little shrill.
Israel’s nuclear weapons are the ultimate equalizer and probably would be used against enemy forces if a war was going badly. If Iran gets nuclear weapons of any sort, Israel has to take things to the next level and devlop MAD capacity to level Cairo, Damascus,Tehran… and the potential for an unprecedentd disaster grows with it.
Iran is being extremely foolish. If a terrorist some day explodes a nuke in Israel, Tehran is gone, even if the device came from elswhere. Israel’s end will be Iran’s end too. Iran does not need nuclear power in a land blessed with oil. Its obvious what the Iranians are after.
That being said, this potential situation is at least 10-15 years off, and many Israelis understand the only way to lasting peace is to stop expansion of Israel and build a strong regional economy that can absorb the Palestinian refugees. The US, Russia and the UN need to keep the pressure on Iran to ensure nuclear weapons are not developed. The solution is not to bomb Iran and enrage the entire middle east. It will be the efforts for peace that are set back 10 years!
Iran has a counterstrike capacity. Podhoretz has made the calculation that Iran will just sit and take his short cut to diplomacy and sanctions, or the damage from the counterstrike is acceptable in the big picture. He also realizes the opportunity is now with the neocon, neo-colonial, radical zionist, christian whacko, export American values, oil grabbing militaristic coalition in the white house that isn’t afraid to gamble on war and lose.
Its really scary that he is trying to groom Giuliani to replace Bush as the front man for these radicals. There has been a lot of discussion on these threads about third parties and no difference offered by the democrats. We need to send these dangerous Republicans packing from Washington. They are intimidating compromised liars, have an agenda of aggression, do not respect our constitution, and don’t represent our country. They need to be buried in a landslide election. Even if we have to vote for that little crook Hillary and her sleazy husband.
Then lets pray that between now and inauguration day Americans don’t wake up one day to find Iran has been bombed (along with US bases all over the middle east, and Haifa and Tel Aviv. Hezbollah rockets of all sorts being fired into Israel, and maybe a nuclear aircraft carrier sent to the bottom of the Gulf by a barrage of Russian built Iranian cruise missiles.)
apefist
== “Not to split hairs, but Leo Strauss is generally considered the founder of neo-conservatism.” ==
True, and people might benefit from doing a bit of reading about his “political” philosophy. It certainly makes out citizens to be sheep who can and must be led around by the nose, with all their weaknesses and beliefs manipulated to drive them where a ruler wants them.
For those unfamiliar with the kind of impact Leo Strauss has had on the Bush administration, here is an excellent summary by Sheila Drury of the relationship of Leo Strauss to the American neoconservative hold on them.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6750.htm
The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was born of a coterie of Straussians, those who were either his proteges or followers. All are in the Republican party, some are members of the administration or “scholars” and others supporting the administration.
Here is the PNAC “Statement of Principles”:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
And the signatories to this statement of principles:
Elliott Abrams
Gary Bauer
William J. Bennett
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
Eliot A. Cohen
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
I. Lewis Libby
Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle
Peter W. Rodman
Stephen P. Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz
I did read a few months ago that Francis Fukuyama has withdrawn his support from the Bush administration, saying that it has failed in furthering the aims of the PNAC. I daresay that’s more through bungling than a lack of intent.
Of course, none of Strauss’s democracy-destroying principles are laid out here: they operate just below the goals and aims. Still, most interesting to me is this PNAC goal, which lets the imperialistic intention slip through:
== we need to accept responsibility for America’s unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles. ==
Any thinking person will wonder why in the hell other sovereign countries would want an international order friendly to US security, US prosperity, and US principles.
This one statement puts American foreign policy into a nutshell: if you don’t give us what we want, we’ll force you to do it with guns and bombs. The guns and bombs are provided for in this statement:
== we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future ==
The PNAC goals and aims, with Leo Strauss’s contributing principles, can be achieved only if America’s democratic government is destroyed, and the Bush administration has done very well at smashing it. Only a few more pillars of American democracy and freedom remain standing that are laid out in the Bill of Rights.
I don’t think the anti-semitic comments are helpful here at the CD comments board, or anywhere else for that matter. Of course the PNAC is established on the basis of Strauss’s philosophy, but Strauss was a scholar of primarily ancient Greek thought (esp. Plato) and I’m not sure to what extent his Jewish heritage influenced him at all. Many Jewish people have discarded the aspects of their tradition that emphasize social justice and a messianic hope of political renewal. Likewise, many have abandoned even the spiritual traditions in which their culture was wrought. So it makes as much sense to blame “the Jews” as it does to blame “the Chinese” for atrocities carried out by the Chinese Communist Leadership. My point being that many Chinese today have lost much of the spiritual/intellectual tradition that shaped their culture (COnfucian, Daoist, Buddhist, etc.) I assume this Podhoretz fellow is either a dogmatic lunatic or an atheist, but he is not likely a faithful follower of the Jewish religious tradition. So attacks on “Jewishness” really serve no purpose, other than to anger the Jewish community and alienate middle of the road folks. We would do better to focus on issues and individuals than the rather uninteresting fact that many Jewish people are in positions of power and influence over the US foreign policy decisions….As I write this I am thinking of Israel, its history and current practices, and am thinking about deleting everything I’ve written..because to take religion out of the description here would be a mistake..but once again it can’t explain everything..after all many of the early zionists were socialist (historical materialist atheist types)…vexing! I in fact find myself struggling against anti-Semitism in my own person when I meet or mingle with some Jewish people who seem completely unperturbed by the actions and policies of the Israeli gov’t/army…So I understand the anger, but it is unproductive.
Pacem in Terris
Not a single name on the list of PNAC momsers that inspires confidence. Mostly defrocked preppies and apologists for the relgion of avarice and racial hatred.
If these persons have signed on to destroy our Republic they are simply base traitors and guilty of treason. Give them what they aspire to give to all others.
Podhoretz in particular needs to get a grip.
Everyday reveals that the fall down the rabbit hole goes on.
Have these people no sense of irony?
Right. Of course not. That takes a dab of imagination, at the least.
Iran continues to take advantage of the position we put them in.
Shame on them.
But then, bombing Iran will drive the price of oil to what? $110-$125 a barrel?
Brilliant!
Oh yes, wise guru, definitely the quickest way to start WW4, and the best way to ensure we’ll all be fighting WW5 with pointed sticks and rocks. Humanity has peaked, let the descent into ignorance and oblivion begin.
naryannsalo, my sentiments exactly. Norman: how much do you have invested in war machinery? Isn’t the old saying “Follow the money?”
I’m not sure that being identified as the “head nut” is much of an honor.
alexnosal October 27th, 2007 1:42 pm
“… Even if Iran produced a bomb similar to the one North Korea tested, it would be at least 15 years away, have no delivery system that could ever reach the U.S. and pale in comparison to the nuclear arsenals of Israel or the U.S. Not to mention that any use of even such a crude bomb against anyone would result in the country being nuked in return.”
That last statement was of course the bulk of our strategy against the former USSR for the duration of the cold war. However in this case, Iraq could possibly hurt us but not destroy us, they on the other hand would probably cease to exist after we’re finished with them. It really doesn’t make sense from their point of view. That doesn’t mean we should just let them pursue a h-bomb, but maybe a policy of making it very clear the ends of this goal will result in their destruction, just as we did with other atomic powers. If we break the governments that hold this technology then we have a much greater risk that this material will end up in the rouges hands. The “bomb” is power to those who hold it and they will probably not be in a hurry to share that power.
Either way, through advances in science we will know as soon as they reach a goal of a weapon and then that would be the time to consider striking them, not now. Also weapons grade plutonium has a “finger print” and it can be determined where it came from just as they knew the anthrax spores (sent to congress when they were voting n the US Patriot Act) came from a US Army facility.
The policy of strike first has put both the US ,and Israel backs against the wall of world wide opinion. Even if we dominate because of our military strength, the rest of the world can find a thousand ways to undermine our power and influence and we will loose the means to maintain our military superiority. In the case of Israel one can see that they have only bought time for their enemies to grow around them. Fighting is what you do to save yourself, not to influence others. I hardly think we are on the verge of defeat as a society, except possibly from within.
To RadicalConfucian: here’s the link to Strauss Judaism.
I begin with a quotation from the Shadia (not Sheila, as anney has it) Drury article referenced in the post immediately preceding yours:
“Strauss’s disciples have inherited a superiority complex as well as a persecution complex. They are convinced that they are the superior few who know the truth and are entitled to rule.”
The complex of superiority and paranoid sentiments (the feeling that one is being persecuted) that one observes in the Straussians are both features of Strauss’s doctrine.
Both these features provide the link to Strauss’s Jewishness: indeed, both pervade the Torah’s account of the genesis and foundation of Israel, as well the Prophetic Books, which relate the history of Israel after its foundation.
The other central themes of Strauss’s political philosophy, i.e., tyranny as the best form of government, subordination as the natural and preferred relation between ruler and ruled, or leader and led, the place of women in the household, where they will produce the future warriors required for a society in a perpetual state of war (the veritable goal pursued by our contemporary anti-abortionists, which they cloak in the language of being pro-life and other hypocritical terminology), the death penalty, the life of prayer and sacrifices to the blood-thirsty, vengenful, and tyrannical divinity (Jahweh or God), all the other rituals of worship that are meant to structure everyday life, et cetera are all to be found in the Torah (read Leviticus, for example).
By the way, slavery, too, is countenanced by the Torah: is there anything in Strauss’s doctrine that really opposes slavery?
Oops, sorry about that, the first line of my post should read:
“Here is the link to Strauss’s Judaism”
If Chomsky, Zinn and other progressive jews received as much MSM attention as such Zionist conservatives as Podhoretz do, the truth would float to the surface for all to see.
When the media determines everything, including who will be POTUS, online warriors have to take matters to the people. Online referendums should be a must for progressive organizing. At first, without legal force, but in the end online referendums could become direct democracy with no corrupted professional politicians needed.
zhongman
== That doesn’t mean we should just let them pursue a h-bomb, but maybe a policy of making it very clear the ends of this goal will result in their destruction, just as we did with other atomic powers.
Of the list of countries that developed illegal “atomic powers”, in violation of the NPT, which ones did US policy decree that if they achieved their goal, it would result in their destruction?
India?
Pakistan?
North Korea?
Israel?
And which of the five original “atomic power” countries have illegally refused to conduct general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control?
United States
Russia
the United Kingdom
France
China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty
If countries freely violate either of the two primary objectives of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, no new development and disarmament, it is essentially null and void, and anyone may develop nuclear weapons if they wish.
Once they violated the terms of the NNPT, the US and Israel in particular have no lawful right to attempt to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons, if that’s what they’re doing. And no scholars that I’ve read believe they are. The US and Israel have put themselves in the position of a murderer who wants to prosecute other murderers without facing prosecution himself.
EveningLand,
Yes, Shadia Drury, not Sheila!
I believe this fellow is in on the racket.
Why is this punk still living?He should be charged with inciting wars like Bushieboy and Dikocheney.He is indeed a terriost of the higher degree like 7000 degree FH.He should be hung with the rope bush/cheney will get someday.Any military man that interferes with the hanging should be hung also.
This man Podhoretz belongs in a psyc ward. For Rudy to have him as an advisor means he’s mainstream with the repugs, of course. Dangerous times call for desparate counter measures to these fear-monger agents of death and war profiteering. It’s time to end this madness.
Two questions I would like to see Podhoretz asked:
1)What impact is an air/missile strike on Iran likely to have on the price of a barrel of oil?
2) How long is a president who took an action that, say, quadrupled the price at the gas pump likely to last in office? Clinton, remember, was impeached for something as trivial as a blow job.
Norman Podhoretz has been a mouthpiece for the Israeli government since the late 1960s. It has become clear that the goal of the Anglo-American-Israeli/Zionist Axis of Evil is the destruction of the economies and cultures of every nation in the Middle East that shows any inclination to oppose the Axis-imposed domination of Israel over the region. The Axis Powers have already virtually destroyed the infrastructures of Iraq and Palestine, they’ve started on Lebanon, and are contemplating turning Iran into another wasteland.
Has anybody else ever wondered whether the secret pact Bush swore to fulfill with his Skull & Bones clan was to accomplish Hitler’s dream of taking over the world, using many of his methods, only doing it “better”?
There’s a little bit of something in Iraq/Iran for all the big players: resources for Big Energy, huge contracts for the m.i.c., lebensraum for Israel.
The fact that this war has dragged on as long as it has, been as expensive as it has, failed to have been properly questioned, and has no real opposition in D.C., tells us that this tripartite group essentially runs the US: Big Oil, Big Guns, Big Israel. All predicated, very thinly I might add, as a “war on terror” to sell it to the American populace. The MSM likewise seems to largely be run by one or more of the three aforementioned interests.
DAKOTALIN, good point. Bush is doing it better so far, at least he is following the script to perfection. One thng different is, Hitler was intelligent, but far to egotistical and paranoid, which was his downfall. Had Hitler been assinated or died, say in 1940, Germany would have been hard to beat, unless his replacement attacked Russia also. I believe Bush is far more dangerous than Hitler and with Cheney for a brain he is very very dangerous for all of mankind.
ORCHESTRATED DIVERSIONS
Bush’s PR machine has learned how to keep the public off balance with diversions just enough to lose focus on what he’s really doing, until the last one dies off and another one is created in the upcoming lull.
Those close to Bush admit he’s fixated on the Iraq war and can do little else, which means all the other issues get delegated by default.
Not only is the most powerful man in the world not capable of abstract critical thought beyond simple dichotomies, neither is he able to prioritize even the use of what meager mental resources he has between the war and everything else.
He’s switched to the 1 or 0 position all the time. When he speaks, the context is always obvious, like he’s reminding you of something he said long ago and is barely worth repeating, or it’s something you knew anyway. Bush ran out of originals a long time ago.
Bush can barely contain his contempt for the audience who doesn’t understand that he needs to get back to his top secret war that allows him to pull all those levers at will without a shred of oversight.
Bush is preoccupied with Iran not because of the trumped up nuclear capability but because Iran could prevent him from succeeding in Iraq. As with the WMD in Iraq, the Iran nuke issue is the perfect excuse to neutralize Iran’s influence in Iraq, or even if it doesn’t, it will certainly prolong the war in Iraq.
The surge was the most effective diversion yet along with Petraeus. Podhoretz is the kind of diversion everyone in the Bush Admin likes because he sets the upper limit for what Bush can do while serving as an unofficial spokesman to Iran.
Rest assured, Podhoretz is not speaking out as a loose cannon or just for Giuliani. Not that he was coaxed to do it since he already believed in it, but the timing and distribution for MSM was clearly arranged.
What’s the most important issue to be diverted? Any threat to funds for the war. As long as that’s safe, they could care less about public reaction to anything said or done.
For another diversion, see salon.com for an over-the-top email message from Public Affairs Officer Colonel Boylan in Iraq to Glenn Greenwald that generated over 300 comments. It may be enough to get the Colonel fired or it may be ignored entirely or it may even be a fake designed to humiliate Greenwald in a Dan Rather sort of way. But any way it’s sliced, it keeps attention away from the war funds.
I’ve wondered who the poor excuse for humanity was who came up with the bankrupt dogma that is “neo con.”
anney October 28th, 2007 2:56 pm
Thanks for your comments on my post. Your post is more up to date referring to the NNPT, I’m referring to the mutual destruction element of the detente between the USA and the USSR. The countries you mentioned have not attacked anyone with nuclear weapons.
I agree with you that if the primary signatories to the Treaty violate it’s provisions, than the Treaty basically is nullified. The present administration has shown it’s disdain for prior obligations under treaties and has crippled our ability to hold the higher ground. It also has eroded our credibility by redefining terms, a trick Bush learned from his Dad.