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Why the Feds Fear Thinkers Like Howard Zinn
Today I will teach my final American history class of the semester to prison inmates. We have spent five weeks reading Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States.” The class is taught in a small room in the basement of the prison. I pass through a metal detector, am patted down by a guard and walk through three pairs of iron gates to get to my students. We have covered Spain’s genocide of the native inhabitants in the Caribbean and the Americas, the war for independence in the United States and the disgraceful slaughter of Native Americans. We have examined slavery, the Mexican-American War, the Civil War, the occupations of Cuba and the Philippines, the New Deal, two world wars and the legacy of racism, capitalist exploitation and imperialism that continue to infect American society.
We have looked at these issues, as Zinn did, through the eyes of Native Americans, immigrants, slaves, women, union leaders, persecuted socialists, anarchists and communists, abolitionists, anti-war activists, civil rights leaders and the poor. As I was reading out loud a passage by Sojourner Truth, Chief Joseph, Henry David Thoreau, Frederick Douglass, W.E.B Du Bois, Randolph Bourne, Malcolm X or Martin Luther King, I have heard students mutter “Damn” or “We been lied to.”
The power of Zinn’s scholarship—which I have watched over the past few weeks open the eyes of young, mostly African-Americans to their own history and the structures that perpetuate misery for the poor and gluttony and privilege for the elite—explains why the FBI, which released its 423-page file on Zinn on July 30, saw him as a threat.
Zinn, who died in January at the age of 87, did not advocate violence or support the overthrow of the government, something he told FBI interrogators on several occasions. He was rather an example of how genuine intellectual thought is always subversive. It always challenges prevailing assumptions as well as political and economic structures. It is based on a fierce moral autonomy and personal courage and it is uniformly branded by the power elite as “political.” Zinn was a threat not because he was a violent revolutionary or a communist but because he was fearless and told the truth.
The cold, dead pages of the FBI file stretch from 1948 to 1974. At one point five agents are assigned to follow Zinn. Agents make repeated phone calls to employers, colleagues and landlords seeking information. The FBI, although Zinn is never suspected of carrying out a crime, eventually labels Zinn a high security risk. J. Edgar Hoover, who took a personal interest in Zinn’s activities, on Jan. 10, 1964, drew up a memo to include Zinn “in Reserve Index, Section A,” a classification that permitted agents to immediately arrest and detain Zinn if there was a national emergency. Muslim activists, from Dr. Sami Al-Arian to Fahad Hashmi, can tell you that nothing has changed.
The file exposes the absurdity, waste and pettiness of our national security state. And it seems to indicate that our security agencies prefer to hire those with mediocre or stunted intelligence, dubious morality and little common sense. Take for example this gem of a letter, complete with misspellings, mailed by an informant to then FBI Director Hoover about something Zinn wrote.
“While I was visiting my dentist in Michigan City, Indiana,” the informant wrote. “This pamphlet was left in my car, and I am mailing it to you, I know is a DOVE call, and not a HOCK call. We have had a number of ethnic groups move into our area in the last few years. We are in a war! And it doesn’t look like this pamphlet will help our Government objectives.”
Or how about the meeting between an agent and someone identified as Doris Zinn. Doris Zinn, who the agent says is Zinn’s sister, is interviewed “under a suitable pretext.” She admits that her brother is “employed at the American Labor Party Headquarters in Brooklyn.” That is all the useful information that is reported. The fact that Zinn did not have a sister gives a window into the quality of the investigations and the caliber of the agents who carried them out.
FBI agents in November 1953 wrote up an account of a clumsy attempt to recruit Zinn as an informant, an attempt in which they admitted that Zinn “would not volunteer information” and that “additional interviews with ZINN would not turn him from his current attitude.” A year later, after another interrogation, an agent wrote that Zinn “concluded the interview by stating he would not under any circumstances testify or furnish information concerning the political opinions of others.”
While Zinn steadfastly refused to cooperate in the anti-communist witch hunts in the 1950s, principals and college administrators were busy purging classrooms of those who, like Zinn, exhibited intellectual and moral independence. The widespread dismissals of professors, elementary and high school teachers and public employees—especially social workers whose unions had advocated on behalf of their clients—were carried out quietly. The names of suspected “Reds” were handed to administrators and school officials under the FBI’s “Responsibilities Program.” It was up to the institutions, nearly all of which complied, to see that those singled out lost their jobs. There rarely were hearings. The victims did not see any purported evidence. They were usually abruptly terminated. Those on the blacklist were effectively locked out of their professions. The historian Ellen Schrecker estimates that between 10,000 and 12,000 people were blackballed through this process.
The FBI spent years following Zinn, and carefully cutting out newspaper articles about their suspect, to amass the inane and the banal. One of Zinn’s neighbors, Mrs. Matthew Grell, on Feb. 22, 1952, told agents that she considered Zinn and another neighbor, Mrs. Julius Scheiman, “to be either communists or communist sympathizers” because, the agents wrote, Grell “had observed copies of the Daily Workers in Mrs. Scheiman’s apartment and noted that Mrs. Scheiman was a good friend of Howard Zinn.”
The FBI, which describes Zinn as a former member of the Communist Party, something Zinn repeatedly denied, appears to have picked up its surveillance when Zinn, who was teaching at Spelman, a historically black women’s college, became involved in the civil rights movement. Zinn served on the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. He took his students out of the classroom to march for civil rights. Spelman’s president was not pleased.
“I was fired for insubordination,” Zinn recalled. “Which happened to be true.”
Zinn in 1962 decried “the clear violations by local police of Constitutional rights” of blacks and noted that “the FBI has not made a single arrest on behalf of Negro citizens.” The agent who reported Zinn’s words added that Zinn’s position was “slanted and biased.” Zinn in 1970 was a featured speaker at a rally for the release of the Black Panther leader Bobby Seal held in front of the Boston police headquarters. “It is about time we had a demonstration at the police station,” Zinn is reported as telling the crowd by an informant who apparently worked with him at Boston University. “Police in every nation are a blight and the United States is no exception.”
“America has been a police state for a long time,” Zinn went on. “I believe that policemen should not have guns. I believe they should be disarmed. Policemen with guns are a danger to the community and themselves.”
Agents muse in the file about how to help their unnamed university source mount a campaign to have Zinn fired from his job as a professor of history at Boston University.
“[Redacted] indicated [Redacted] intends to call a meeting of the BU Board of Directors in an effort to have ZINN removed from BU. Boston proposes under captioned program with Bureau permission to furnish [Redacted] with public source data regarding ZINN’s numerous anti-war activities, including his trip to Hanoi, 1/31/68, in an effort to back [Redacted’s] efforts for his removal.”
Zinn and the radical Catholic priest Daniel Berrigan had traveled together to North Vietnam in January 1968 to bring home three prisoners of war. The trip was closely monitored by the FBI. Hoover sent a coded teletype to the president, the secretary of state, the director of the CIA, the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Department of the Army, the Department of the Air Force and the White House situation room about the trip. And later, after Berrigan was imprisoned for destroying draft records, Zinn repeatedly championed the priest’s defense in public rallies, some of which the FBI noted were sparsely attended. The FBI monitored Zinn as he traveled to the Danbury Federal Prison in Connecticut to visit Berrigan and his brother Philip.
“Mass murders occur, which is what war is,” Zinn, who was a bombardier in World War II, said in 1972, according to the file, “because people are split and don’t think … when the government does not serve the people, then it doesn’t deserve to be obeyed. … To be patriotic, you may have to be against your government.”
Zinn testified at the trial of Daniel Ellsberg, who gave a copy of the Pentagon Papers to Zinn and Noam Chomsky. The two academics edited the secret documents on the Vietnam War, sections of which had appeared in The New York Times, into the four volumes that were published in 1971.
“During the Pentagon Papers jury trial, Zinn stated that the ‘war in Vietnam was a war which involved special interests, and not the defense of the United States,’ ” his FBI file reads.
By the end of the file one walks away with a profound respect for Zinn and a deep distaste for the buffoonish goons in the FBI who followed and monitored him. There is no reason, with the massive expansion of our internal security apparatus, to think that things have improved. There are today 1,271 government organizations and 1,931 private companies working on programs related to counterterrorism, homeland security and intelligence in about 10,000 locations across the United States, The Washington Post reported in an investigation by Dana Priest and William M. Arkin. These agencies employ an estimated 854,000 people, all of whom hold top-secret security clearances, the Post found. And in Washington, D.C., and the surrounding area, 33 building complexes for top-secret intelligence work are under construction or have been built since September 2001. Together, the paper reported, they occupy the equivalent of almost three Pentagons or 22 U.S. Capitol buildings—about 17 million square feet.
We are amassing unprecedented volumes of secret files, and carrying out extensive surveillance and harassment, as stupid and useless as those that were directed against Zinn. And a few decades from now maybe we will be able to examine the work of the latest generation of dimwitted investigators who have been unleashed upon us in secret by the tens of thousands. Did any of the agents who followed Zinn ever realize how they wasted their time? Do those following us around comprehend how manipulated they are? Do they understand that their primary purpose, as it was with Zinn, is not to prevent terrorism but discredit and destroy social movements as well as protect the elite from those who would expose them?
Zinn’s book is revered in my cramped classroom. It is revered because these men intimately know racism, manipulation, poverty, abuse and the lies peddled by the powerful. Zinn recorded their voices and the voices of their ancestors. They respect him for this. Zinn knew that if we do not listen to the stories of those without power, those who suffer discrimination and abuse, those who struggle for justice, we are left parroting the manufactured myths that serve the interests of the privileged. Zinn set out to write history, not myth. And he knew that when these myths implode it is the beginning of hope.
“If you were a Native American,” one of my students asked recently, “what would have been the difference between Columbus and Hitler?”




206 Comments so far
Show All"...our security agencies prefer to hire those with mediocre or stunted intelligence, dubious morality and little common sense."
Don't forget that J. Edgar Hoover was a closeted, cross-dressing gay man who lived with his lover (Clyde Tolson...FBI"s #2) and consorted with mob figures who financed his excursions to the race track.
Hoover also compiled a list of some 500,000 Americans who were to be arrested and placed in camps in the event of a "national emergency."
With leadership like that who else were they going to hire? Bright, perceptive candidates/hires quickly washed out.
Hoover compiled that list on FDR's orders many of them Japanese leaders living in Hawaii just in case years before the Attack on Pearl Harbor and that list was implemented the day after Pearl Harbor on Japanese comunity leaders in Hawaii.
"WE need another Pearl Harbor"
Did you hear the conspiracy theorist joke about two cows mocking the third who thinks Hamburgers come from cows? ( Far Side).
GF
I'm afraid you are mistaken. That list was compiled by Hoover in the 50's while Eisenhower was president. It was a continuation of Hoover's lifelong obsession with "subversives" which dated from the Palmer raids of 1919-1920.
He was an evil, hateful man...a hypocrite who kept secret files on major political figures and used their sexual behavior as weapons to twist them into following his twisted will.
He was as bad as Cheney...if you can imagine that...
All in the interests of protecting the dirty rotten system of predatory corporate capitalism
Good comparison: Hoover & Cheney. Peas in a pod. I wonder which of them has ultimately done the most damage to this country. Incalculable.
Sorry, not to nit-pick here, but exactly what does being "a closeted, cross-dressing gay man who lived with his lover (Clyde Tolson...FBI"s #2)" have to do with his crimes? Sounds like something Glenn Beck would use .....
Yeah...that's just what I thought too....
Both Zinn and Hedges are blind to the significance of 9/11 and truth regarding it.
I figured that this article would draw out the Goodman-hating, Beck-loving trolls.
Why didn't you use the weasel-word "gatekeepper"?
q
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
Zinn is no longer alive. I think that makes him blind to most--if not all--things.
Mr. Zinn was a truth-teller who frightened the elite. A Peoples History of The United States is a MUST read for anyone who seeks the truth!
Zinn told us about the history of ordinary people, rather than the pablum history usually taught in our schools. We desperately need truth-tellers like Professor Zinn.
"Do those following us around comprehend how manipulated they are? Do they understand that their primary purpose, as it was with Zinn, is not to prevent terrorism but discredit and destroy social movements as well as protect the elite from those who would expose them?"
I would also ask if they care. They will leave their government position with full benefits for the rest of their lives while they're earning six-figures or more for some multi-national conglomerate they protected while employed with the FBI.
The revolving door encompasses all those government employees who are willing to play the game at the expense of their fellow man.
Deliberate cross-posting from another column on Dr. Zinn.
=========================================================
I - for one - have downloaded the three pdf files that constitute the record of FBI stalking (and it was stalking) of Howard Zinn. Further, I read the speech Howard Zinn gave in September 2009 wrt the FBI, and its traditional (from 1908 onward) racism.
In this 2009 speech Dr. Zinn forgot to mention the television propaganda series called "The F.B.I" which premiered September 19, 1965 and closed with the last episode on September 8, 1974 - an incredible nine year run.
The series starred Efrem Zimbalist Jr. as Inspector Lewis Erskin. Efrem - and all other actors who played F.B.I. employees on the series - were required by J. Edgar Hoover to undergo a background check. Hoover demanded technical accuracy for the show, and insisted that agents be portrayed in the best possible light. Zimbalist maintained such a strong personal relationship with J. Edgar Hoover that they remained mutual admirers for the rest of Hoover's life. Hoover held Zimbalist up as an image role model for F.B.I. employees to emulate in their personal appearance.
Officially, the FBI motto is "Fidelity, Bravery, and Integrity." In practice a better motto is: "The end justifies the means and, if that offends you, let's step around the corner of this building, into the alley for some percussive re-education."
==========================================================
Although I enjoyed "A People's History of the United States, 1492 to Present" and have made gifts of it to young persons, my favorite Zinn books are: "You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train: A Personal History of Our Times" (1994), and "Declarations of Independence: Cross-Examining American Ideology" (1991).
The F.B.I was and remains an Attitudinal Un-American Activities Detection team. We finance this organization to detect, harass and punish Thought Crime, as introduced in "1984" by George Orwell. The resistance to realizing this truth by the American right wing is comparable to Holocaust denial.
And these words by Pete Seeger gain new respect: "I resent very much and very deeply the implication of being called before this Committee, that in some way because my opinions may be different from yours, that I am any less of an American than anyone else - to every thing (turn, turn turn), there is a season (turn, turn, turn)."
Trylon
Zinn is not the only one who forgot that TV series. Reading your post, I recalled watching a couple of episodes. It may have conformed to Hoover's demands but it really sucked as drama.
I doubt that Zinn spent very much time watching TV outside of the occasional newscast.
q
Look, man. While the whole 911 thing has rather too much coincidence involved and may have had some degree of involvement by 1 or 2 Americans, the whole issue has become so overwhelmingly wacky with the wildest theories and imaginations, that we might as well set it all aside unless some better evidence comes along.
Im sure this will kick off an internet food fight, but IMHO anyone saying that the government would knowingly allow, or be actively involved with binging down the the Twin Towers, and the pentagon really have not been paying attention to American History over the last 100 years.
The government now exists only to SERVE and PROTECT people like the ones that owned the businesses that were in the Trade Center. If our government was involved in some kind of a false flag event they would have picked a school, a hospital, or even an orphanage over the destruction of the Trade Center.
Too many people have confused government incompetence coupled with its willingness to exploit a disaster for a wildly unlikely conspiracy theory.
Beg to differ. Look up Operation Northwood which Kennedy said NO to. Hear that Kennedy wanted to abolish the CIA and that is why they killed him. Watch any footage of his killing and see the SS agents being pulled back. Whatch one guy shrug his shoulders like WTF?
Goldman owned the 20 floors that the beams that supported the buildings were on. Many firefighters heard explosions. Explain why they "pulled" 7.
Don't be so naive. Our goverment will do anything. Including over throwing elected officials and putting in brutal dictators. Iran in '53 and Haiti with Baby Doc.
I find your "rebuttal" interesting. You said our government would overthrow elected officials, install brutal dictators, even kill our own politicians, and I agree with you completely on that. But even YOU don't mention that our government would do anything harmful to the mega corporations it serves. A bit Freudian if you ask me.
Your argument is a good one - among dozens of others, both technical and organizational, which debunk the "deliberate destructon" theories. The US would not attack the very symbols of its own power.
Considering that the FBI probably only knew of a plot to hijack airliners, apparently without knowlege of the targets or the suicidal intentions, (all terrorist hijackings before this were specifically non-suicidal with hostages and demands) a "let it happen" hypothesis remains credible.
The most convincing rebuttal to the "truthers" is simply to point out what a monumental task their "theory" would entail - a weird and non-credible redundancy of both surrepitiously remote-controlled airliners and planted bombs (why both???) -requiring the perfect coordination and sealed lips of hundreds to thousands of government and contractor, buidling maintnance and airline personnel. The airliners would require the design and installation, without prior testing, of the remote controls, plus an elaborate system of fake cell phone and air-phone calls from the airliners from people who sounded just like the flight attendants and passengers The planning and design would take many months to years. The airliners would have to be aimed to an exact point on the buildings so the impacts would not disable the precisely installed building demolition syatem.
Meanwhile, in the buildings, there would need to be thousands of holes knocked in walls and column enclosures and the installation of thousands of pounds of explosives or thermite, the primers, hundreds of miles of wiring or detonator cord, all set with finely engineered, perfectly executed delays to simulate the way the building collapsed starting at the pooint of impact damage. All this would require dozens to hundreds of engineers and domolition specialists working over many months to years to design and install. If their hypothesized "thermite" was used - it would need a completely novel design of a specialized high-temperature cermaic crucible to keep the large quantities of tehrmite in contact with the vertical columns (thermite is never used in building or bridge demolition).
And through all this, not a single contractor or government person coming out and asking why they were put to work designing planting explosives in a occupied skyscraper, or rigging up elaborate remote controls in selected airliners. Not a single occupant or building engineer in the WTC would ask about or mention all the noise and disruption going on...
Sure, we need another investigaton as to what investigators and higher-ups in the FBI, CIA, Justice Dept. and White House knew of the hijacking plot, and and who and why they failed to act, but you don't investigate absurdities.
You pretty well nailed it with that post. There would have to be a LOT of people involved to pull off a conspiracy of this size. There aint no way you can get that large a group of people to all keep their traps shut for this long. If it was indeed a conspiracy it would be up on Wiki Leaks by now.
Sarcasm noted. The Wikileaks stuff involved mostly just the US military and their after-action reports after firing bullets into and dropping bombs on Afgnans. The Wikileaks stuff was hardly news to anyone who was following events there. It's just war-business as usual, invoking loyalty and patriotism, and a belief that all the Afghans are subhuman anyway, to keep people shut up over events that they consider unremarkable anyway. Everything in wikileaks we have heard before on "Democracy Now" or other sources.
The WTC stuff is a totally different situation. How did they keep the thousands of ordinary office workers janitors, and building maintenance engineers, witnessing all the noisy activity installing the purported explosives in the WTC all silent? How did they keep the engineers and technicians - many working for outsourced engineering and contractor firms all silent? Are you suggesting that all these engineers and technicians would all stay silent while working on an completely over-the-top political-extremist plot of mass destruction and mayhem on their own fellow citizens??? If you are suggesting that they would all keep their mouths shut out of patriotism or loyalty, than you are truly nuts. Jesus! The engineers wouldn't even have picked up their pencils on such a project before telling someone about it. Even if they were all staunch, Bush-loving republicans they wouldn't have gone along with such a lurid plot.
Why do I even have to explain such a situation? Do you even have the words "unbelievable" or "preposterous' in out vocabulary?
The evidence for controlled demolition is overwhelming from a scientific point of view. The data is there and uncontested at this point (Dr. Neils Harrit's work for example). There are well over thousands of accredited scientists, engineers and architects who believe the official story is impossible, and actually conduct experiments on real data to prove their points.
I don't want to argue this in this forum, but as a 'libertarian socialist' i recognize the bigger picture of imperialist hegemony at work. To grasp the context in which 911 happened, it's imperative you read Danielle Ganser's book "NATO's Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe".
9/11 was clearly an inside job. What is sad is that the liberal left has ignored this story and handed over the reigns to the nut jobs like Alex Jones. The science is there to explain 9/11, but the context is being manipulated by xenophobic, right wing racists, and the like.
The liberals will never understand that the state conducts terrorist operations on a daily basis in order to justify their existence and their massive budgets.
"The evidence for controlled demolition is overwhelming from a scientific point of view. The data is there and uncontested at this point "
It's so obvious by now. It was an incredible achievment too. An exponential advance in the art of building demolition, and that would have been true enough under the normal conditions of them being able to work in buildings off limits to the public over the many weeks it would require for all the prep and wiring.
What's amazing is, not only did they have to do the work while people went about their normal daily activities, but the rigged explosives *still worked* even after two jetliners filled with fuel were flown into them!!! Too bad no one can take credit for this amazing technical acheivment that will likely never be dupliacted.
Jake,
You may be a right wing troll, but your points are well-taken.
But, these "Truthers" are NOT to be conflated any way with the US anti-imperialist, anti-capitalsit left.
"You may be a right wing troll, "
*blush* Real trolls don't take time to follow up and see the thing through.
"but your points are well-taken."
Seriously, why do you never hear anyone say "That was *amazing*. A truly amazing technical feat."?
"But, these "Truthers" are NOT to be conflated any way with the US anti-imperialist, anti-capitalsit left."
Very true, this point is completely divorced from left/right.
Amazing in sense of shock and awe; but despicable in sense of our own using our
own secret weapons against us. Best book: Webster Griffin Tarpley's 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism (free online at Indy Mac). To share views quickly, I clip and paste, below. Evidence is truly over-whelming, scientific and witness, without considering possibility of mini-nukes, but this was not compiled for you:
Several whistleblowers report the use of mini hydrogen bombs in NYC WTC 1 and 2 which connect a lot of dots on 9/11. The best reports are found under “Finnish military expert---hydrogen bomb” or an American M.D., Dr. Ed Ward, and another report at http://911u.org/Physics/WTCenergySurplus.html.
No uranium or plutonium---not detectable, ten million degrees for fraction of a second, turns concrete to dust (evaporates all water), vaporizes steel and humans, and can be directed (like straight up to fit an area). It explains the concrete and everything to dust, the unusually small debris fields for WTC 1 and 2 (missing 2000 massive steel supports, cavity, not pile), the videos of residual vertical steel beams vaporizing or turning to dust, and the pools of molten steel in their basement for months –despite constant water on it. When one looks at the photos of our atomic explosions from the past, there are two- different from most others --- that match the appearance of WTC 1 and 2, “Sedan” (shallow underground) and “Swordfish” (at sea, presumably under somewhat), both from the summer of 1962. See “Sedan” at: http://zvis.com/nuclear/detonation/stsedan/sedan.shtml
This is supplementary to prior discoveries of controlled demolition explosives, thermite and nanothermite, in the dust (not to mention photos of squibs and molten metal, plus building 7 which collapsed like perfect demolition). Of course, many had already known that a Boeing did not crash at Pentagon or Pa (both sites: fiber, not metal, insufficient debris—weight (3 tons versus 80 plus) and character, at Pentagon: hole too small, plus more, including staged evidence: undamaged light poles blown from base on wrong course; at Pa: ravine pre-existing per prior geological aerial photos); that our new “beam” weapon had been employed to melt hundreds of cars in unusual ways (including away from the NY crash site on FDR Highway---see Star Wars weapon 7 at www.drjudywood.com); that the deadly anthrax came from our military/intelligence labs at Fort Dietrich, Md. (proven beyond doubt by Glenn Greenwald of Salon.com, among others); that the attackers did not have the capability to have penetrated all of the computers of our intelligence agencies, including NSA and military intelligence, and had secret codes to Air Force One and were using them as announced by White House and others on 9/11, (but dropped thereafter to match “dumb” Arab story), and for hundreds of other reasons, including witnesses and photos.
J R
Intelligently and persuasively well stated. One always finds it amazing that liberals will acknowledge that the Bush/Cheney administration had lied about practically everything under the sun but yet, either openly or tacitly, will accept the Official Fairy Tale put forth by that mendacious regime as to what occurred on 9/11/01.
"Intelligently and persuasively well stated. "
You gotta be kidding me Erroll. Mini nukes used for demolition for the first time ever, no evidence of any sort of dry run, and it's designed to withstand the impact of jetliners. Still exponentially far beyond any building demolition done before.
You have to at least admit that from a technical perspective it amazes you, right?
I re-read your comment. I do not want to dwell on a marginal point, but you should know that people have been contemplating the use of nuclear weapons for commercial building demolition for a very long time. For example, the Russians have s site on this (and likely others). I do not recall it being used, but some have been touting it as an intelligent option for a long time.
There are photos online of the team that is suspected to have camped out in the towers, moved about to avoid detection (when necessary, as they likely had abundant friendly floors). If you read Tarpley's book, you will discover that the major computers for world wide trading had to be interrupted with all power to the towers cut off for 36 hours shortly (10 days maybe) before 9/11, which is when really hard to access areas would have been planted. Per the big executives who prepared for this unprecedented shut-down, after the fact, they knew that the buildings were wired then.
I assume that you are aware of the five Israelis, dressed as Palestinians, filming 9/11 as it occurred and high-five-ing each other with joy as the demolition unfolded? They had a nearby van with box cutters. People who saw them, were scared for their lives, as they knew they were watching something sick. they were arrested but sent back to Israel, and went on television (which you can view online) on talk show and said they were sent there to film the event.
There is just so much evidence. But I will stop.
" I do not want to dwell on a marginal point,"
Yes, you seem more interested in adding additional points about people in disguise allegedly high fiving etc.
"but you should know that people have been contemplating the use of nuclear weapons for commercial building demolition for a very long time. "
That doesn't change the questions I posed, regarding the numbers used, how they were configured, and how they would install the detonating apparatus in a manner where they would be sure it would all survive the collision of a jetliner and work perfectly.
And if you do beleive all this, could you please admit that you find it to be an absolutely amazing technical feat?
It was huge "show time", with our former FBI superstar John O'Neil hired to become head of WTC security on 9/11 (as he had been fired from FBI because he suspected Israel was behind fancy explosion to USS Cole in Yemen ---who had gone missing two days before 9/11, found dead with body intact in rubble of WTC; and with all Marsh/McLendon (and maybe other AIG) Whistleblowers having a meeting above spot of tower strike; and with Pentagon plane (global hawk?) hitting area with newly called accountants to look for the missing 2.3 trillion that Rumsfeld had just announced the day before 9/11. Builidng liabilities are eliminated, enriched by insurance, criminal evidence against Wall Street is destroyed, stage is set for more power and profit and control of country and world (and police state and impoverishment for rest of us).
Personally, I feel that the murders and treachery outweighs the shock and awe. But clearly, they were using all of our latest technology against us.
I apologize for diversions,such as high fives, but so many stories that are important are not in any one book or article (and I am constantly stunned by friends who lack important bits of evidence).
As I recall, numbers of world's largest demoltion companies offer nuclear as an option, but I cannot tell you of any examples (but I am not looking at their sites).
As for how the charges were placed, different sites posit different theories; and I believe all that I have read posit use of all types: thermite, nanothermite and other. Those positing nuclear posit a few to many; and some posit that the motlen steel is from fizzled device that did not work properly. Good luck.
*Please* JR, I am asking you if you think it was an amazing technical feat, way beyond any precedent in history, this controlled demolition. *Please* just tell me that someone deserves credit in some way for that one. None of the Troothers ever say anything about this. It was absolutely incredible, on par with sending a man to the moon and bringing him back, only it was done in secret.
What I find amazing is that so many Americans actually believe that 19 college aged Muslims, all between 5' 5" and 5' 7" in height and all of slim build and armed with nothing more than box cutters, were able to somehow overcome, not once or twice or three times but in four instances, the largest military/intelligence apparatus on the face of the earth. What I find amazing is that so many Americans believe it to be a giant coincidence that these 19 Arabs, along with their alleged mastermind, who was living in a cave somewhere in Afghanistan, were somehow able to know that the day that they had picked to launch these terrorist attacks just happened to be on the very same day that the U.S. military decided to hold about a half dozen military exercises in the eastern part of the United States. I find it amazing that so many Americans are, for some bizarre reason, willing to give the Bush/Cheney administration the benefit of the doubt as to what happened on that day and to believe their story as to what occurred on 9/11/01 despite the fact that they have lied to the American people concerning so many other issues.
It is way more likely that there was a "let it happen" approach by the Cheney clan, than some theory of mini-nukes or nano-thermite secretly planted etc etc etc, or other theories that have been touted as "scientific" such as energy beams etc etc etc.
The "let it happen" theory is way more persuasive to address your statements about the NORAD stand-down etc. The hijackers didn't need to know the date of the NORAD exercises - it is much simpler, and entirely plausible, for Cheney and his team to have known the planned date of the hijackings.
And Zinn never stated that he accepted the official story at face value, he simply asserted that no theory or proof of a massive operation involving installing building demolition devices was at all necessary to see the utterly plain-as-day fact that deeply corrupt and illegitimate criminal gangsters are in control of our government and corporations.
(Sorry to address multiple points not in your post, i'm addressing the whole argument around 911.)
When people hold it up as a two-edged litmus test - on the one hand, anyone who does not jump on board and agree with specific theories, or make the demand for a new investigation the number one goal, gets tarred as a sellout, coward, or CIA plant, while on the other hand, the need to "expose the truth" is held up as THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING, guaranteed to transform the consciousness of the USA when it is exposed - both edges of this litmus test are false.
Howard Zinn is a great example on both counts. He saw no need to fight to "expose the truth" about secretly planted devices that supposedly blew up the twin towers, because THE TRUTH IS EXPOSED - CRIMINAL GANGSTERS RUN THIS COUNTRY. They lie, cheat, steal, and repeatedly commit assassination and mass murder to maintain and expand their power. This is no secret. Zinn spent his career writing and organizing against it.
Anyone who thinks on the one hand, "There is not enough evidence of this! If only people knew the TRUTH!" while also thinking that "If this one "truth" about the secretly planted devices that blew up the Twin Towers were exposed, that would transform everything!" is plainly wrong on both counts. "The truth" has been exposed, and exposed, and exposed, and continues to be exposed every day.
i'm with Zinn on this one.
The "let it happen" theory encounters monumental problems at multiple levels.
Just consider a huge one, there is overwhelming evidence that Boeing airplanes did not crash at Pentagon or in Penn.
Certainly you are entitled to your view, but if organized crime is looting the nation and destroying it on the basis of lies, corruption and intimidation, most would be better off correcting the problem.
Mr. Zinn was great American, and he clearly and unequivocally knew that 9/11 was a false flag attack. As he said, who is not his first or most important question. There is little doubt in my mind that both he and Mr. Chomsky knew where the evidence points. As Chomsky says on 9/11 and JFK, most or all Americans "could not handle the truth." I disagree with Mr. Chomsky and Mr. Zinn on 9/11 and JFK (on which I do not recall Mr. Zinn's comments). But in multiple contexts, both men are brave. Consider Mr. Chomsky's postion of being "an agnostic" on the Holocaust---that coming from a leading American Jewish intellectual. Like Mr. Chomsky, another great American, I imagine that he knew that his life and that of his grandchildren would be imperiled if he took a strong position on every super sensitive issue---especially those on which there was a "mendacious combination between government and media." That last phrase and recognition is from Chomsky---and it is the single largest failure of recognition among Americans and their religtious institutions. In short, media and government are not functioning properly; and neither the people nor their churches have clued in to that.
Thanks for reading.
"Just consider a huge one, there is overwhelming evidence that Boeing airplanes did not crash at Pentagon or in Penn."
Which leaves us with the little problem as to the location of those jets and passengers. Talk about your "monumental problems at multiple levels". It only gets more and more complicated and impossible.
I didn't ask about those things. I asked if you thought the exponential advance in the art of building demolition that day amazes you from a technical standoint, especially considering the secrecy, the restricted access, and the complication of having to survive the impact of jet liner impacts. Or maybe you prefer the SPACE BEAM theory. That's what we compare those other things to. Hijackers with knives is *much* more beleivable to, um, "reasonable" people. Have a nice day.
As best as I can make out, you seem to be implying that because you are discarding the theory that controlled demolitions brought down those buildings then they must have been brought down by airplanes. With your usual contemptible manner you sneer at anyone who dares to challenge that viewpoint despite the fact that no steel-frame buildings have ever collapsed due to fire. Curious that you never wish to discuss that rather important point as well as the fact that Building 7 also came down even though no airplane ever struck Building 7.
Now a scientific way to verify if those buildings came down due to fire would be to logically test the steel structure that came down after they had collapsed. But again it is curious that this cannot be done since Gulliani saw fit to remove all the rubble and to ship them to places like China and Staten Island, N.Y. That, of course, begs the question as to why they did this and so quickly [which was in the space of a few months]. It would seem logical to any thinking and, to again borrow from one of your words, reasonable person that the government was making sure that those steel columns would never be tested and put to scientific scrutiny in order to find out how and why those buildings came down. But then if one points out these logical questions one is then almost instantly labeled as being a "conspiracy nut".
"As best as I can make out, you seem to be implying that"
Erroll, I am asking you to admit that there was a huge technological advance in building demolition that day, so much so, as to be *incredible* and *amazing* to you. Deep down inside somewhere, you know how hard this is to believe. Tell me you believe in that incredible achievement that day. Type it out for all of us, that the art of building demolition was advanced exponentially that day.
"the fact that no steel-frame buildings have ever collapsed due to fire. Curious that you never wish to discuss that rather important point"
Because it is an *irrelevant* point. This was shown to be irrelevant within weeks of it being brought up, it's been eight years now. You should be better than Charlie Sheen and Roseanne Barr clowns in this regard. There is a first time for everything. No steel skyscraper with a unique tube in a tube design had ever been subject to the impact of a fully fueled jetliner flying at nearly full speed. No steel building of any kind has ever been hit by tons of debris from a collapsing skyscraper the next block over.
The "never happened before" point *is_not_a_point".
It is difficult to know where to begin in rebutting your insistence that these buildings, and even Building 7, could only have come down because they were hit by airplanes [even though Building 7, of course, was never hit by an airplane]. Are you in actual life a physicist? If you are, then perhaps you can enlighten us as to how the laws of physics and especially the laws of motion were violated on that day. In particular, please explain to we dumb-as-rocks lay people how:
* The buildings [including Building 7 which was, incidentally, never hit by an airplane] collapsed straight down, in a nearly symmetrical fashion, instead of toppling over.
* It has been estimated by Dr. Steven E. Jones, who, as it turns out, happens to be a physicist, that the southwest roof corner of the 47-story WTC 7 fell in 6.5 [+- 0.2] seconds. An apple dropped from that spot would fall in 6.0 seconds in a vacuum [through the air it would be a little slower].
As an essay written by Dr. Jones in the book 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out points out:
* "Dr. Keith Eaton, after touring Ground Zero, stating in the [magazine] Structural Engineer: 'They showed us many fascinating slides... ranging from molten metal which was still red hot after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared in the distance.'"
*The observations of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, who was a member of the firm that designed the Twin Towers. According to his report: 'As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.'"
* "Sarah Atlas was part of the New Jersey Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue team and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero. Stating that 'nobody's going to be alive,' she said that fires burned and molten steel in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet."
Dr. Jones writes of:
"Dr. Allison Geyh [who] was one of a team of public health investigators from Johns Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9/11. According to her report, "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel.'"
Dr. Jones goes on to note that:
"The video available on the Internet shows that some six weeks after 9/11, the observed surface of the metal was still reddish-orange. This suggests that there was a large quantity of a metal with fairly low heat conductivity and a relatively large heat capacity. It is therefore likely to be iron or steel than aluminum. Like magma in as volcanic cone, such metal can remain hot and molten for a long time, if it remains in a fairly well insulated underground location. ..., thermite reactions may have resulted in substantial quantities of molten iron [which was observed in pools], initially at very high temperatures, above 2,000 degrees C [3,632 degrees F]. It is clear that molten metal was repeatedly observed at the rubble piles of the WTC Towers and WTC 7, metal that looked like molten steel or perhaps iron." Dr. Jones states that "Scientific analysis would be needed to ascertain the actual compositions of the molten metal". As I mentioned in my earlier comment, this, of course, cannot happen because Rudy Gulliani decided to whisk away the evidence of this crime scene where it could never be examined.
Dr. Jones stresses that:
"These observations are consistent with the use of high-temperature cutter-charges such as thermite, HDX, RDX, or some combination thereof. These are explosive materials that are routinely used to melt or cut steel."
Dr. Jones quotes from Thomas Eager, a professor of materials engineering at MIT and who also "supports the official view of the collapses", that:
'The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel.'
Dr. Jones has demolition expert Brent Blanchard telling him that "he had never witnessed molten metal at the site of any building that had been brought down by demolition without thermite, and he had seen hundreds of these."
So what we have is a demolition expert stating that he has never seen any building whatsoever come down without the aid of thermite as well as other experts making legitimate points which state that that they had all witnessed molten steel at the remains of those Towers as well as at the mysterious collapse of Building 7 and a physicist, among others, who has said that these building could not have possibly come down without defying the laws of physics. But it would seem that you apparently believe that these people, despite their credentials, should not be believed and that we should all meekly accept what the Bush/Cheney administration has told us. Excuse me for my impertinence but I, along with many, many others, including over 1,200 engineers and architects, refuse to accept the government's most shaky and tenuous explanations as to what occurred on that heinous day.
See new post. *sigh*
I don't think you have a good understanding of the support structure for the Twin Towers. To my way of thinking, "toppling over" would have been more unusual.
"Several whistleblowers report the use of mini hydrogen bombs in NYC WTC 1 ..."
There is zero evidence for this. Usually when this gets mentioned, it's associated with those that infiltrate legitimate debates around the science of 9/11 in order to discredit such debate. I am not suggesting you are, but you should be careful about repeating claims that have absolutely no tangible evidence to back them up.
Thanks for your comment. It is a marginal point that should not
detract from the microscopic evidence of thermite and nanothermite and
overall story.
However, the concrete to dust, huge steel beams to dust (see amazing photo collection at Dr. Judy Wood.com, including video of this), missing steel -cavities, not piles, (inexplicable pools of motlen steel on site for several months---something nuclear or very fancy)----are not explained by other method. Just back up and focus on concrete to dust, not coarse dust, but super fine dust that did not settle into its footprint.
I have engineer friends who have traded thoughts with me, and their mental blocks from prior education, but truth is that all research in this area has been virtual military secret for 40 years, but predominant views are that cold fusion works (and for certain laymen would not have access to best). From 1950s, we have a mini-nuke that would fire from a recoilless rife; and all advance nations have been working on them. And I have considered the monster star wars beam argument, and its huge valuable equipment that would be required (unlike the small version usually on HumVee that was undoubtedly used on cars on FDR highway). It fits concrete to dust, it fits disappearance of steel and people, and the video of it fits the appearnce of the 1962 Sedan explosion which has these huge separate "dragoons" of dust plumes going off on all sides. Nothing else fits.
But there is abundant other evidence: I mean, look at nano-termite, it was just developed by our US Navy labs, and only our government and Israel has access to it; yet it was throughout dust. [And look at witnesses, and underground explosions, and empty vault of criminal evidence against Wall Street with vault door open under building 7 and one under 6 emptied of gold, look at huge simultaneous explosion from base of bldg 6, simultaneous with impact of plane with second tower.]
So in conclusion, I feel that these hypotheses are the best, in my judgment, to connect the dots on these various qualities. Thanks for reading my views, but please do not let this marginal point detract you from the conclusive bigger picture.
"inexplicable pools of motlen steel on site for several months"
Please provide the name of a single person who ever collected molten *steel* at the site and tested it as such.
"there is abundant other evidence"
Given that this is true, how many devices were used, how exactly were they arrayed physically, and how did they protect the arrangement from damage from jetliner collisions?
Thanks for your question. There are many photos of pools of molten steel, including dripping from the tip of the exavacator (orange molten metal, that had the appearance of molten steel from a steel foundry ---i.e. not pinkish as is case with aluminum), and in the cavities. There are also many reports from "rescue" and clean up workers, including that of ground temperature, as I recall (to be verified) being 1100 to 1300 degrees and melting the bottom of boots and causing danger to workers. There are intricate stories of molten metal moving down from one pool to another. There are satellite photos of the super hot spots on multiple days/different times (probably every day). Despite water hoses being concentrated on debris pile for weeks, this molten metal was encounterd for I believe three months, and very confident of 8 weeks (different reports/different encounters). This was bizarre beyond belief to everyone.
"Thanks for your question."
You're welcome.
" There are many photos of pools of molten steel,"
You cannot determine the elemental composition of molten *metal* from a photograph. My question remains: Who sampled and tested any molten metal from the site and determined that it was *steel*?