Franklin D Roosevelt "prolonged" the depression has got to be right in there with FDR "threw away" victory in the Second World War and handed it over to those "terrible Communists" in Moscow. It' just "lovely" how the far right and further right rewrite history and then has the nerve to talk about progressives revising history. They really know how to tell some real whoppers, one of which David Sirota right here demolishes. Sirota, keep on demolishing this garbage. Somebody has to.

AD

Oh, another thought...there ARE certainly places in Canada I could do the same...we are all, after all, North Americans too- the dumbing down really knows no borders, and is always profitable whatever colour your money is, whatever flag you fly in July.

If one has ANY critical faculty left, at all, the FOX Network would be out of business in a heartbeat, with CNN and possibly some of the older Networks, and many newspapers, and many radio stations as well...but since I could pretty much go to pretty much any street corner in the US of A with a placard that said somekind of Neo-Con "truth" on it and be celebrated...there is a LONG way to go before silly Neo-CON "talking points" will lose their sting...

David Sirota: "During a Christmas Eve appearance on Fox News, I pointed out that most mainstream economists believe the government must boost the economy with deficit spending. That's when conservative pundit Monica Crowley said we should instead limit such spending because President Franklin Roosevelt's "massive government intervention actually prolonged the Great Depression." Fox News anchor Gregg Jarrett eagerly concurred, saying "historians pretty much agree on that."

Jebas, David, you were debating with a woman who thinks Nixon was a great president who did nothing wrong and a Ron Burgundy lightweight who has to style his hair in a pencil sharpener? If they think FDR's New Deal policies prolonged the Great Depression, then any sane person knows automatically that the truth must be the polar opposite, just considering the knobheaded sources. Along with some of the other posters on this thread, I'd suggest avoiding all such venues as Fox News in the future -- you know you'll never get an even break there. Let Murdoch's pretend news network wither and die without your playing Alan Colmes for 'balance.'

Pan
FDR on the whole a Hero

Pan

FDR pretty much did the opposite of everything he campaigned on.

Did he prolong the depression? No, but he did not do much to address the root causes responsible for the depression, and in some cases made them worse. There were 11 million unemployed in 1932 and the same number in 1940. The problem in 1937 was the Fed doubled the reserve requirement in 1936 and contracted the money supply ina pre-emptive acctack on inflation. No doubt protesting the Supreme Courts decision ruling the NRA and AAA unconstitutional.

The New Deal is called fascism by some, socialism by others. The fascism part comes from the planned economy with the NRA and AAA to set up trade associations and allow self rule by industry under government suprvision. It also promoted industrial combinations and corporate monopolies. The concern was the low prices at the time, and the way out of the problem thye said was to create scarcity in production to increase prices and profits.

Of course, people could not afford even the low prices. So FDR made this problem worse by paying farmers to plow up crops and not plant, and to reduce livestock. Many went hungry as food was destroyed. Population barely grew from 1930-1939.

The socialism part was unemployment benefits, social security and public works projects. These were largely positives, but the money came from borrowed money (except social security). FDR could have simply issued his own debt free money for these like Lincoln. Also, FDR initially opposed Social Security and Minimum Wage Acts but public demand forced him to accept it

The confiscation of citizens gold at 21 dollars an oz was followed by increasing the price we would pay for gold to 35 dollars, highest in the world. This led to the USD being devalued against gold, while increasing the dollars value against foreign currencies. Not to mention the fleecing of the citizens who owned the gold before it's value was increased. This put our exporters at a disadvantage, so much so we ended up importing cheaper corn from abroad while FDR was paying farmers not to grow corn to keep US corn prices high. We could not export much corn. It was a global depression. So we ended up acquiring 3/4 of the worlds gold as we imported gold and exported dollars.

FDR also took over bad farm and home mortgages from those holding them, and gave them bonds with guaranteed interest. For the homes and farms who could not pay, the government foreclosed on them at a loss. Kind of like what is happening today.

And the RFC of course came to the rescue of some of the bigger banks and industries, again, using money borrowed from the banks.

Meanwhile, the root cause of the depression was in fact low wages and lack of credit and money in circulation in the real economy. There was plenty of money, but it was not circulating. Kind of like today.

Spending is certainly good to stimulate the economy so long as that spending trickles down to the real economy, and is done with money that is not borrowed. Not happening today.

Interesting book from 1940 called FDR country squire that discusses much of this, and is available online. Todays history has pretty much been rewritten by those who fund the universities and control the publishing houses. Much of what we believe about FDR is a myth, and the right has it's own myths as well.

There is a big difference between the great depression and the greater depression of today. Then the US was a producer/manufacturing nation with a trade surplus and with savings and minimal military expenditure. Today the US is a consumer nation with minimal production ability, negative savings, huge trade and federal and personal debt, and a massive bloated military.

Increasing deficit spending will ultimately lead to hyper inflation, massive devaluation of the dollar, the dollars collapse as world monetary standard, and the collapse of the US economy. The current crisis was created by a fake financial based economy based on easy credit and debt. More of the same is not the answer.

It is so characteristic of the progressive mind set that when confronted with outlandish lies or purposeful inaccuracies propounded by the right "conservative" yackers, progressives first suffer self-doubt and resort to fact-checking. It is an endearing characteristic and renders almost everything a progressive-minded pundit says more credible than the pull-it-out-of-your-a** right-winger's "truths". I just wonder why progressives tend so much more to the standard that what they say be accurate and the right has no such compunctions.

The relevant truism that Sirota didn't mention is that liberalism is the great enabler of the conservative mythologies, because liberalism strongly discourages the embrace of truths and instead encourages respect/tolerance for unique, individual points of view, of which the conservatives produce mountains of, and persuasion, for the goal of zero-sum power concentration/abuse. Liberalism serves the elites very well, both the liberal and the conservative elites. Instead of liberalism, we progressives embrace the widespread dissemination of knowledge and wisdom and our right to access. The liberal elite enjoy arguing that the absolute truth doesn't exist but we progressives understand there may exist an objectively closest consensus position to the truth. But that is to the elite what holy water is to the vampire. The truth dissolves the elite's exploitation rackets. The San Francisco Chronicle doesn't want us to see the flaws of liberalism because liberalism is the ideology of one of the two opponents perpetuating the endless gladiator battle that is the red herring that masks the granddaddy of all wars - the elite's class warfare and exploitation of the people.

'Fox News anchor Gregg Jarrett eagerly concurred, saying "historians pretty much agree on that."'

Yeah, my brother-in-law Bubba Jones is a historian, and that's what he sez. I kno he is a historian because he is writing a history on flamingo lawn sculptures in Florida mobile-home complexes for retirees.

FOX NEWS, like Limbaugh's program and most of right-wing radio, exists to fight the class war, in a profitable manner of course. For FOX, information and argument, usually in twisted forms, are simply weapons, not something to serve the common good. Sirota disappoints in indicating he was painfully unaware of such an obvious fact.

My father grew up during the depression. He dropped out of school in 10th grade and joined the New Deal's Civilian Conservation Corps. When dad told me about it he just called it three c's. He was sent to WV to help work on a national park and was able to send money home to Ohio to help his family survive. When WWII broke out he joined the Navy and continued to send money home to his family.

You can ask all the economists you want about what happened during the depression, but I choose to believe my father who became a firefighter and was the most honorable man I've ever known.

Yes the war expanded the economy, but before that the New Deal was lifting people out of dire straits. This time around maybe we can reverse the sequence of events and end the wars then rebuild America for our children.

Farm Parity fell to 58% in 1932, but rose under the new deal: 1933-64%, 1934-75%, 1935-88%, 1936-92%, 1937-93%, 1938-78%, 1939-77%, 1940-81%, 1941-93%. Then, with the Steagall Amendment (stimulus package from Banking Committees based upon New Deal Farm Policy) it stayed at 100% or more for 11 years, until Eisenhower started gutting New Deal Farm Policy.

We had a farm depression (prior to the Great Depression) after WWI but not after WWII with these policies. Economists made the case that $1 in Agriculture created $7 throughout the economy.

These were not subsidy programs, like we've had from the Republicans (ie. Reagan weakened New Deal Price Floors and greatly increased subsidies, Gingrich's Contract for America/Freedom to Farm ended New Deal Price Floors, and replaced them with even bigger subsidies, creating an enormous failure, followed by four emergency farm bills, but with even more subsidies, not a return to New Deal Price Floors). Under the New Deal we charged a profit on farm exports, and agribusiness had to pay above the cost of production domestically as well. Under the Contract for America we lost money massively on farm exports. Under the New Deal, since we had price floors, not subsidies, the programs didn't cost money but rather made money for the government (on interest from price floor support loans). As Mark Ritchie wrote in "Crisis by Design," "The CCC, by charging interest on its storable commodty loans, made nearly $13 miion between 1933 and 1952." (See sources there.)

Today the National Family Farm Coalition is the U.S. leader on this kind of a stimulus package. It should be incuded in all progressive proposals.

David,

Sometimes you just have to call bullshit.

Remember that the next time you chose to go on FOX.

Ah, yes--that myth about FDR prolonging the Great Depression has resurfaced again. This isn't news to me. Back in the 1980s, I was a Milton Friedman/Ayn Rand-reading, brochure-distributing Libertarian. For the most part, libertarianism seemed like common sense, except for the totally-free-market thing. Not knowing any better then, I simply accepted the unfettered capitalism thing as being correct, even if I didn't understand the process. It was during my libertarian years that I first ran across this notion that New Deal policies had somehow retarded a self-correcting economic recovery that was already taking place.

Hmm, economic activity increases by reducing spending. How exactly does that work?

Push their stupidity back at them with a simple question that even the sheep who watch FOX might understand and then wait for their response. Don't try to point out why it doesn't work because they'll just shout you down.

David, you have it right, but don`t let a bunch of liars that have practically destroyed this country in eight years shake you up. These people are nothing but a wrecking crew and it will take years if not decades to recover from what they have done. The first thing after taking office was to raid the treasury for the rich, and they are still at it until the last day. It might well have been possible to avoid 9-11 but the warnings were completely ignored, which ended up with the Bush war of choice that has put us into so much debt we may never get it under control. We have lost all credibility overseas for our stupid and cruel actions, and are now the worlds bully. Most of our government agencies are gutted and have no authority now to regulate anything. Jobs are gone for too many and housing and credit are a disaster thanks to letting it all take care of itself. So guess what this bunch want more of___ more war, and more government regulation of everyone`s sex lives--Stop all abortion, birth control. sex education, and let medical personel refuse treatment or prescriptions on moral grounds. We do not have the same great country of eight years ago, and please do not let right wing hypocrites mess up your philosophy. We need another New Deal as fast as we can get it.

Thank you for writing about this, David. I'd heard this before; actually, I encountered a book with a sub-title "How FDR and the New Deal Extended the Great Depression," or some such drivel, in a book store one night a few weeks ago.

These are not conservatives, and to call them such gives them far too much dignity. Like all good stalinists, they are quite willing to rewrite history in order to accomplish their aims, although to call them pragmatic gives them far too much credit. Rather, theirs is an ideological bent in which every untruth is perfectly sound, so long as it extends the ideology and cements their grip on power.

They may be down, but they are not out, and we progressives had best buckle up for one hell of a battle over the next four years. I have a feeling the Clinton impeachment will seem like small change when we meet them with Obama's economic, foreign policy and war plans.

Patriots defend the constitution!

keep in mind always that Tories are masters of the lie.

David, when I have time for television, I occasionally watch FOX for their talking points, and to avoid commercials on the other cable news stations. At least 50% of my students watch FOX and I need to know how to counter the "information" they get from such far right sources. I have no time for talk radio unless it's available on NPR. Occasionally I will put up with Lou Dobbs, but draw the line at Glenn Beck on CNN, however. His mix of banality and evil is simply too depressing.

It became very clear that the word had gone out from Mr. Murdoch in 2007 and 2008, and that even Mr. O'Reilley had resolved to do his part in redeeming Fox's image somewhat. Given the policy change, both Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama were successful in using their appearances on Fox to their advantage, in my opinion. Likewise, if you can use your appearances to sell your books and "get the word" out about the incredibly important issues of the day, I support your decision to do so, and understand that someone's got to do it. You've learned a valuable lesson. Now, in exchange for your agreements to appear, try to get some firm ground rules laid down about equal time for your responses, etc. Finally, although it surprised me to hear of your self doubt, it was comforting in a way. If one of your stature and accomplishments can succumb, I guess it can happen to anyone. By the way, I just Googled you and saw that you had worked for AIPAC. What have you written about US policy in the Mideast?

This guy is surprised to hear a false assertion on FOX news?

Actually, I was left speechless when "Forrest Gump" beat out "The Shawshank Redemption" for Best Picture that year... Shawshank had flown in under the radar and apparently no one had seen it, though it was up for a number (6 I think) of the top awards... Anyway, despite appearing on "Fox News," I appreciate this tidbit confronting (in retrospect) the "gotcha-with-made-up-facts" mode of the Republican propagandizing machine. Thanks. I'm sure in the weeks to come we're going to be bombarded with these talking points and I doubt the news anchors in general will be vigilant enough to fence them out.

"But then I was laughed at..." on FOX 'news', which is why no liberals, progressives, libertarians, greens, or any other non-cult card-carrying member should ever appear on FOX 'news.'

Some argue that appearing on FOX 'news' helps get the message out, but that's totally false - the message is only allowed out on FOX 'news' so it can be denigrated, humiliated and destroyed while FOX uses it's inclusion of non-cult guests to prove their propaganda of "fair and balanced," which it is neither. Said guests, like Sirota, then walk away stunned and confused to the point of self-doubt, as if his treatment by FOX was some sort of unexpected surprise.

If the Sirotas and Ariannas and Krugmans of our world simply refused to appear on any FOX 'news' program, FOX would be forced to either change, go away, or become the TV version of Rush - to the cult, for the cult, of the cult.

Forrest Gump sucked and Pulp Fiction really sucked. Why do so-called serious people cheapen themselves by appearing on geek shows like Fox, Larry King, Katie Couric, etc? You just want face time? As Noam Chomsky says, there is no information to be gained from such sources. Stop feeding them.

Although the figures may be exaggerated, one should remember that while the rest of the world languished in the first global economic downturn, the Great Depression of the 1930s, for the USSR that was a decade of unprecedented growth: an average of 30% per year, dwarfing the “economic miracles” cited of other nations. That tonic may taste bad to some, but there can be no denying that it works.

Don't logicians have a name for gratuitous unprovable assertions? Could we counter their "talking point" by demanding "prove it."?

One thing to remember about today's conservatives is this: They are NOT conservative. They are out for the destruction of everything so that they can profit from it. They are nothing but greedy, selfish psychopaths whose whole goal is to kill off the planet, as long as they are the ones with the most money at the end of it. They are not about conserving anything, they are about destroying everything they can get their hands on. This is truly a suicidal, destructive attitude, and it has nothing to do with real conservatism.

This batch is also heavily into rewriting history. That way, W can seem like a decent human being and a great president. Well, for them, he has been just great. For the rest of us, he has been a sociopath, a narcissist, and the worst president of all time. Anyone who comes out and says that his constituency is the top 5%, and to hell with everyone else is NOT a decent human being, let alone a great president.

These people are lying, they are losers, they are psychopathic to the extreme, and to disagree with them shows that you are at least sane. And to give Faux Noise the benefit of the doubt in anything is just crazy. They are proven liars, and don't care about the truth at all. That is why even Rupert is ashamed of them. If they didn't make him money, he would drop them in a heartbeat, or at least that is what he says. I don't know that I believe him.