'Obama' for Lefties
When I was a boy I traveled to the Deep South. On my very first day there I saw two water fountains side by side, one labeled "Colored" and the other "Whites Only." Now, less than half a century later, a black family is on its way to the White House.
No doubt the myth of white superiority is still alive and well in many places. But today that myth, the historical foundation of American society, has a crack as big as the crack in the Liberty Bell. The only word to express the magnitude of the change we lived through last week is "revolution."
Let's be honest, though. For those of us who still use that word "revolution" to describe the economic and political as well as social changes we'd like to see in the world, and the changes in domestic and foreign policy we'd like to see in our government, Barack Obama seems to be far from the president we want. He appears to be a pragmatist. He will probably govern from slightly left of center, much like Bill Clinton and John Kennedy. That's certainly the impression he is giving in his first days as president-elect.
"Appears" and "probably" are the key words here. No one knows for sure what Obama has in mind for this nation. "We will get there," he promised in his victory speech. But, in his typically soaring yet vague rhetoric, he never told us exactly where he intends to steer us. That's understandable. He doesn't want to be tied to any policy agenda before he even takes office, especially with the economy on such an unpredictable rollercoaster. Very possibly, he does not know yet himself where he is headed.
It's not like the good old days of Bush and Cheney, when we knew pretty much exactly what we were up against. Now we are all sailing on uncharted political seas.
All this uncertainty should make progressives feel optimistic. What can give us hope is not the new president as a policymaker, but the new president as a symbol of possibility. Barack Obama is the name of a person. "Obama" is also the name of a new mood -- a new tone and sensibility -- that has somehow risen up in every section of this country. It's a sense of open-ended possibility that hasn't been felt since the time of JFK, when those two water fountains I saw in the south were already doomed to become dusty relics of the past. Now, as then, the new mood is most evident among young people, who are energized as they haven't been since the '60s to enter the political scene and work for change.
"Obama" as a symbol is the name for a wind of change that could be powerful enough to sweep the ship of state great distances in a relatively short time -- though in what direction, no one can yet say.
Where we end up depends on which political forces mobilize and organize most quickly and most effectively. We could end up almost anywhere -- even right back where we started, if we are not careful. But if we on the left are careful, if we think strategically, we can catch the new wind and steer the nation a bit to the left.
While resisting Obama's unacceptable compromises, we should accept the wisdom of his strategic pragmatism. He himself can teach us the best way to oppose his policies.
As a community organizer, he learned that politics means making coalitions. Lefties who opposed Obama have to work together with lefties who supported him. And all of us have to work where we can with liberals and even centrists. How can we hope to push them leftward if we refuse to deal with them?
That means we can no longer just yell "no, no, no" at the government and expect anyone but ourselves to listen. It worked for the last few years because George W. Bush was so unpopular. But now we are dealing with a president who is as widely admired as Bush was despised. Whether we like it or not, that's a fact a smart political movement can't afford to ignore. So we have to appear -- and really be -- cooperative and constructive, not obstructive.
We also have to appear unthreatening. That's why Obama is so widely admired. He won, not by offering specific new policy ideas, but by uniting in himself the seemingly opposite images of change and steady predictability. He presented himself as the dynamic leader who could "change the world" while remaining always safe and solid, poised and unflappable, never likely to do anything rash or impulsive. The defining moment of the contest was the second debate, when the "maverick" McCain wandered erratically around the stage while Obama sat or stood, serenely centered, even as the economy of the nation (and perhaps the whole world) was collapsing around us.
It's understandable that images of steadiness now dominate. Obama knows that you can't use the winds of change to move people who are frightened or insecure. Whatever he may hope to accomplish, he has to keep on reassuring the general public and the power elite that he really is the temperate, self-controlled man they saw throughout the campaign. That's the only way he can be free to put across any policy agenda he comes up with.
He won't succeed if he says or does anything that might look unexpected, impulsive, or the least bit radical.
In a recent interview, the president-elect showed that he understands this truth. He complained that his infamous remark about "bitter" people who "cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them" was totally misinterpreted. He was trying to say how important it is to accept people as they are, with all their fears, and recognize their longing for "a sense of continuity and stability that is unavailable in [their] economic life. . Because Democrats haven't met them halfway on cultural issues, we've not been able to communicate to them effectively an economic agenda that would help broaden our coalition."
That's even more true for progressives both within and to the left of the Democratic party. We know that most people in this country will never be economically secure unless there is radical change in the economic system. But if we set out to defeat, or even ignore, the people made insecure and bitter by the current system, we'll never get them to accept the need for radical change. We'll only create more fear, bitterness, and resentment. Rather than nudging the center toward the left we'll help to drive it toward the right.
We don't have to appear as cautious and timid as Obama. We couldn't, even if we wanted to. But we can learn how to talk to people who don't share our values, how to take their needs and concerns into account, even how to work together with them, without sacrificing our principles. If we do that, we can use the new mood of change as a window of opportunity to persuade the whole nation to continue moving leftward.
That possibility is what the name "Obama" symbolizes. But the new president certainly won't do it for us. We have to do it ourselves.
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158 Comments so far
Show AllLeea November 13th, 2008 9:54 am, criticizing Obama is your right, but what 'giving Obama a chance' refers to is the fact that he has no power at the moment -- he won't until he's sworn in Jan. 20th.
His detractors could at least wait until Jan. 21st to start informing us via their crystal balls of what an abject failure his presidency will be.
The whiners are out in force. Obama voted for a massive corporate welfare bill. In the short few weeks it has passed AIG has been again caught trashing 300K of tax payer money at another elite resort. Obama asserted that companies shipping jobs overseas would be punished. Instead the most egregious industry responsible for the practice, i.e., the auto industry is lining up with the hands out and Obama asking, "how much?" Man, lets all join hand and skip merrily down the yellow brick road.
Will you let us know precisely when we can start? Before, or after lunch? Will you let us know precisely what we can talk about and what we can say about it so as not to upset the carefully stacked apple cart?
As for having no power, he is, in fact, probably the most powerful Dem in the country right now. If not, he's in do-do already.
He had power, which he could have retained until Jan, as a Sen., until he quit, at a time when he could have helped lead, if not a revolt, at least a stalling action, against the continuing and increasingly frenzied depredations of the Bush admin. in these last few weeks.
Let us know, please when we are permitted to "detract".
PS - were you this defensive of Kerry in '04 after Nader "betrayed" you? Did you vote for Kucinich in the primaries?
I'm not sure if anyone is actively reading this post or the comments anymore, but one consistent complaint I hear is "Obama is not being given a chance!"
I really don't get this complaint.
If we protest what we believe is wrong, this takes away Obama's chance? His self proclaimed chance for change revolves around us the people finally having a say!
This complaining and fear being stirred up because some of us are doing what he wanted us to do and participating, not worshiping him like some savior, is bizarre to me.
Someone explain?
Lots of good comments on another cruddy post. I say, forget about Ira, and check out this good idea: a Congress-Watcher organization that is taking shape right now: http://november 5.org. Don't have a cow that it's grown out of the Nader campaign; it's nonpartisan. And it was a major goal of that campaign, as well, which got lost in the yelling here and elsewhere. We need a people's lobby; we can do it.
Good comments on a cruddy post? The inanely predictable comments are the worst part of CD.org. I honestly don't know why you people are here. This one is typical. A fine post -- far from the greatest I've read here, but good enough -- followed up by what is basically spam from the cult of Nader, shilling for his latest ego trip. No matter what the question or issue is, the answer is always Nader? You guys ever think for yourselves?
I couldn't care less about Nader, the person. I'm against all personality cults, whether for Obama, Bush, Nader, or anyone else.
That link was not spam; it's directly relevant. In fact, it gives some concrete shape to the only part of Chernus' post that was at all worthwhile:
"Where we end up depends on which political forces mobilize and organize most quickly and most effectively. We could end up almost anywhere -- even right back where we started, if we are not careful. But if we on the left are careful, if we think strategically, we can catch the new wind and steer the nation a bit to the left."
Thus, http://november5.org is directly relevant: it's a way to mobilize quickly and (I hope) effectively. There are many others, no doubt, so why don't you post some, Bucky-boy?
Yep, thanks for that link.
I was just listening to Frances Fox Piven on WBAI www.wbai.org on "City Watch". The show will be archived and free online. Piven is Left. Her newest book is "Challenging Authority:How Ordinary People Change America".
Writing as fast as I could, I got this quote near the end of the long interview: "We have to make trouble (NYCartist note:as in demonstrations)to force Obama to make those hard choices...The only way reform has come (in history) is when ordinary people (she lists workers, farmers,etc) have the hope and the desperation to take risks." She thinks the internet is a good way for the left to communicate. I know Dr. Piven's work for about 4 decades. There are many videos on YouTube,too.
And the biggest way we can make trouble is to reject their product. Abysmal greed, war, destruction of human rights, pollution, insanity.
When will we sacrifice the label left, so we can leave this miserable tyranny behind for once and for all? As long as they have majorities aligning up with either side of the duopoly and it's corruption, they win, we lose. There is no reason for those who want change to stay loyal to the changeless wonder that has our country in a deadly stranglehold. I believe if change can happen it is a mass exodus of good willing people out of the label left or right and on to a new label that signifies true change. You just can't change by staying the same.
I'd rather belong to the mean party, as in we say what we mean and we mean what we say, because we do what we mean.
Our word is our sacred oath, not a sacred cow that is sacrificed at the altar of politics as usual.
Political promises can start to mean something folks, but only when we make it so.
Obama is a symbol of an ongoing failure to bring meaning back to democracy, truth, honor, freedom, love and everything good and right. Will this failure end with his inception into the seat of power as so many people hope???
I think this American pattern of leadership will end only when the people find true meaning again outside of this calcified system that the majority still looks to with hopeful eyes.
"I'd rather belong to the mean party, as in we say what we mean and we mean what we say, because we do what we mean.
Our word is our sacred oath, not a sacred cow that is sacrificed at the altar of politics as usual."
Good stuff!
Leea: For me, it's about what I/we can do. Not the negative philosophy. I don't make political promises, but I do my part to make change.
"Leea: For me, it's about what I/we can do. Not the negative philosophy. I don't make political promises, but I do my part to make change."
Oh man...someone I can finally relate to. I'm just sorry I found this just before it's about to cycle off.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
NYCartist
What is "the negative philosophy" you say this as though I know what you are talking about, and I don't.
But thanks for doing your part.
Leea
Leea:Hi. I am not of a philosophical nature, so after "reject their product", I had trouble finding the positive. I have been reading your comments for awhile and wish you good tidings. I have all kinds of trouble with slogans, jargon and buzz words, in re understanding.
Hey NYCartist, good tidings to you as well.
I see, no problem with your input, it's all good. We all process the world differently and if my basic rejection of the two party status quo works best to express in your mind how I see the political social landscape, that works fine for me too. Sometimes saying little or nothing is the best approach.
But in response to your comment, I don't believe the positive can be found in the old establishment. But that does not mean the positive cannot be found. It resides elsewhere in my opinion and that is the place/reality that I mean to end up at.
There is nothing wrong with any of us taking a strong anti-establishment stance and maintaining it until we have our basic rights again. But also enjoy the little things in life, laughter, love, family, music, the full moon on a winter evening.
As the saying goes,
~barns burned down, now I can see the moon.~
Leea:Hi. Are you a woman or a man? I'm a woman. I am newly online, although older.
Hi NYCartist,
I'm a woman, 38 years old.
Nice to meet you, welcome to the site.
I'm fairly new too, I look forward to seeing you around, we need everyone.
Leea
Leea: I'm newly online, but I knew of the site before I got a computer. (I'm a few years younger than McCain.) I just did a quick perusal of some of the articles and the comments of the last couple of days. Notice which kind of articles get a lot of comments.
Marjorie Cohn's gets almost none.
The Taser murdering and the one on miserable treatment of the mentally ill gets few comments.
The guy who tells his dead father "we did" or "we won" gets few comments.
Some people repeat their "stuff" over and over. Some people are sexually explicit in their comments. I'd be interested in your comment on the comments (not individuals).
Well as you've introduced yourself as an individual, I am the type to take note. I think individuality is very important. I think your progressive input as an elder is great, my mom, younger than you refuses to use a computer!
As far as my comments go, I tend to participate in a way that inspires me and I respond as I can(limited time) to comments.
Again, I look forward to your participation.
Leea
Leea:I smile at your "!" about your mother and refusing to use a computer. It's about choice: I think people should be able to have a computer if they want to and ignore computers if they want to. Still too many people who can't afford a computer or the ISP line, and equipment to make computers adaptable to various kinds of disabilities is still very expensive and most disabled people are not wealthy. (I'm a disability advocate/activist as well as an artist,since I became disabled during my art career.)
And, like the old boys' network, we old women "stick together". "Grandpa" Al Lewis refused to use a computer,too.
You wouldn't happen to have a magic wand would you? We could use a fairy godmother about now.
Cheers,
Leea
Leea:you're adorable.
I find what Leea said to be perfectly understandable, creative and dead on.
-TIA
Thanks for that positive input TIA.
Yo, all you Obama can't stand him folks. Here's a little Welsh idiom for you:
"a'm pen yn fy mhlu. Translation: miserable and sulking and my head in my hands.
Look Obama is the president elect. You can sit and sulk for four years with your mantra of "not good enough" or you can go with Amy Goodman who said on Democracy Now,
"People need strong independent grass roots organizations to effect genuine, long term change." So step out of your house, get to know your neighbors, don't preach at them. Get to know what their needs and wants are. Together Organize some block parties or neighborhood coordinated garage sales so you can all buy what you need and your neighbor can sell what he doesn't need. Maybe organize how you garden, how you can exchange after school pick up of children, exchange baby sitting. Learn to listen. It might just be that your neighbor has some things to say that you can learn from.What? You want your Prez to do all that for you> Good luck. It just might help to get off the far out left wing constant rant about what is wrong and begin to think what you can do in your little patch of earth with whoever you share that little patch with. Step by step. Inch by inch.
."Think Globally Act Locally." Bumper sticker of the sixties, still applicable.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Ah, yes, mind your own little neck of the woods while the world outside goes to hell in a handbasket. Look, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with the concept of the necessity of local effort, it's just that some of us understand that that, indeed, is "not good enough". For too long we have been told that we should just mind our local affairs and let the "big boys" take care of the "big stuff" that us little peons couldn't possibly understand.
I think it's because we "know our neighbors" and watching them lose their jobs and homes and healthcare and knowing that growing a garden or sharing baby-sitting, while admirable, is not going to be nearly enough, that we are miserable. But we are not sulking and we are raising our heads and our voices.
I think people can work on more than area at a time. It's not either or:local vs national. There's a big mess out there. There are so many issues, just pick as many as you can work on while surviving in all this,yes?
I intended to make that point with my post, but I guess I didn't do it too well, did I?
Aquifer:sometimes we type too fast. You did ok.
Symbols are archetypal. Ira is defining the symbol to mean something it is not. Why should that surprise anyone? People add commentary on this site to render their own self importance, and Ira is no exception to the rule. Anyone with authentic humility does not require a soap box. Standing on a soap box indicates that he sees himself as a leader, when in fact he is nothing more than a spokesman for the Obama brand. He is part of the corporate agenda marketing the brand. Of course, the true believers eat it up.
Ira's one size fits all sentiments are self righteous tripe.
The uncharted water that America must now navigate are hurricane seas.
This is the storm of the century that 30 of the last 40 years of Republican administrations have created.
The very clever and destructive right wing media propaganda campaign by the likes of Hannity, Oriely, Limbuahg , Coulter , etc. have brainwashed millions Americans.
Every day I have to listen to hard working middle class Americans tell me that Obama and the Democrats are going to tax the rich which will further damage the economy.
Whats really sad is all their talking points come from the right wing media brain washers mentioned above.
If they took a look at whats happened to real wages and benefits as a result of global capitalism , you can clearly see that the Republicans with the aid of Democrats in their pockets are to blame.
I actually heard many of them blame the Carter administration.
One of the battles Obama will face is reeducating the public on American Economics.
Our economic success is not due to Reaganomics ,and our failures not due to Carter.
Can you imagine the Republican right wing propaganda machine in the wake of its major losses this year are trying to blame two presidents from thirty years ago as reasons for their failures or successes.
All we Democrats have to do is simply help our fellow Republican Americans help us to get Washington real.
Work together to understand which elected officials really want to help Americans, and slowly get rid of the ones that don't, both Republicans and Democrats.
We the People have now become the sheepdog, not the sheep, we must tend to our country, and keep the unpatriotic, unconstitutional wolves at bay.
Get rid of the Patriot Acts. Get rid of the traitors.
Save the Constitution, and our economy.
Born Free Men
"We don't have to appear as cautious and timid as Obama. We couldn't, even if we wanted to. But we can learn how to talk to people who don't share our values, how to take their needs and concerns into account, even how to work together with them, without sacrificing our principles. If we do that, we can use the new mood of change as a window of opportunity to persuade the whole nation to continue moving leftward..."
Case in point: Did anyone read Katha Pollitt's latest--over at the Nation, trashing of Sarah Palin? It was a replay of the way these upper class elitist feminists ccharecterized the women that Bill Clinton preyed on as "trailer trash". Dispite Palin's ignorance, distorted sense of entitlement and infatuation with the spotlight (the easiest way to make her go away is to ignore her), maybe on a human level, if women showed more empathy for women, not of their class perhaps, but who were still being exploited or blamed by men, maybe more common ground could be achieved rather than COMPROMISING--or should we say, triangulating--or rather capitulating on the issues.
"But we can learn how to talk to people who don't share our values, how to take their needs and concerns into account, even how to work together with them, ..."
More and more it sounds like a description of what Obama should do with progressives ....
With each increasing hour, Ira Chernus, I wonder if advocating for Obama was a mistake. Maybe it would be better to have McCain-Palin (or would it be Palin-McCain?)bring down the airy fairy castle house of cards once and for all and we would be forced to rebuild something truly resembling the promise of hope and substantial change.
Rahm Emanuel? What say you? Larry Summers---How much worse can it get? Now I understand he is considering Samm Nunn and Warren Christopher....After claiming they weren't going to staff with Clintonista retreads, they claim that it is all they have to choose from...What? Apparently Clinton didn't care for Carter's appointees, so where did Clinton find his crowd? According to the Huffington Post, Obama has appointed a former Clintonista as a "liason to the Progressives" as if we were a special interest group when we own the majority on all the issues.
Maybe it would've been better to install McCain whose ideology would be exposed as a lie rather than having Obama continue to prop it up as legitimate.
What say you, Ira Chernus? Will the notion of hope and change be reduced to the election of a black president?
It almost seems as if you are trying to convince yourself.
YES! Finally the crowd starts stirring...I was wondering if the day would ever come that the dillusion of an Obama administration taking the country to the left would disappear like the pipe dream it is.
I guess the wide-eyed moment of "what the hell did I do" has FINALLY come to the over-enthused.
I hate to say "I told you so"...
True, and interesting to witness the struggle between true belivers and those who are coming to realize they've been had on HuffPost's lead article re Nunn & Christopher. Here is a nugget from the comments:
Hope and change has morphed into bait and switch.
What? A week after the election and you've already given up? There are a lot of comments right on this board with constructive things people can do. Go and do them. Or, go ahead and sit at your keyboard and whine for the next 4 years.
Well, the first step is facing up to it instead of cheering on the latest disappointment like it wasn't.
What is it that we haven't already done that you suggest we do?
Show me the money!
Right?
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
I will be watching Michelle.
-30-
Following in Laura bush's footsteps as opposed to, say, Eleanor Roosevelt's?
What is there to see?
How can a people push their elected representative (that is, the President) to the left while accepting his blank slate and spirit-of-compromise pragmatism (i.e., Chernus' concept)?
It cannot be done.
Loyalist Dems: are you activists for change or are you just waving pom-poms for the home team? Take the test to find out.
QUESTIONS
1. When Obama voted to bail out rich Wall Street investment bankers, I did the following:
a) Praised his deep insight into the economy.
b) Wrote an angry letter to Obama and my Congressional representatives.
c) Watched a sitcom and upped my 401K contribution.
2. When Obama voted for the FISA bill, violating his promise not to pardon the telecom companies for violating the Fourth Amendment and spying on the American people, I did the following:
a) Praised his deep spirit of compromise over a difficult situation.
b) Wrote an angry letter and decided to vote third party.
c) Called for takeout pizza and bought AT&T's premium home service package.
3. When Obama said he planned to bomb Pakistan, increase the troop level in Afghanistan and follow Bush's generals in Iraq, I did the following:
a) Praised his deep wisdom on foreign policy.
b) Wrote angry letters and joined the local antiwar protest effort.
c) Played the America's Army video game and invited military recruiters to the local PTA meeting.
Well, OK, you get the point.
If you answered "a" on any of the above, you are a loyalist Democrat. God help us all.
If you answered "b," you probably aren't a Democrat or you won't be one for long.
If you answered "c," you are likely a Republican or a witless fool.
Please, don't follow leaders. Know what you want and ask for it. And don't ask for wars, wasteful spending on the rich and public sacrifices like losing our civil liberties. Please wake up, Dems. Stop dreaming about compromising with fascists or maintaining the status quo just to get along.
And it is indeed up to you, loyal Dems, to move the country toward positive change, even if that means defying your own party and your saintly President.
-TIA
"And it is indeed up to you, loyal Dems, to move the country toward positive change, even if that means defying your own party and your saintly President."
Why is it only up to loyal Dems? What gives you a pass? Vote for someone else and you think you're absolved? Wrong! You're stuck with the rest of us in this imperfect boat. Row or jump.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
THEY
don't care. If issues mattered to them they wouldn't call themselves liberals and support Obama
Blacks in the Klan, Jews in the Nazi Party and liberals for Obama. self-hating nuts
nicely stated.
As Warren Buffet (I believe) once said: "When the water recedes we'll all see who's swimming naked."
Today's political realities are no different than today's economic realities - they are all covering each other's asses hoping democracy won't drain the pool (or should I say "the swamp") in which they swim.
Dems better do better than Clintonistas if they want to continue to project "Change." Otherwise, it's nothing more than "Chump Change."
Great stuff! Too bad we didn't all take your test before the election.
A few weeks ago he was arguing for Obama. Now he is hedging his bets. Obama's entire campaign was based on change. Yet in the last few days he is resurrecting the corporate cronies from the Clinton years. Change? Looks like more of the same including Ira's redundancy. The more things change, the more they stay the same. The Dems are moving fast for more corporate welfare. AIG just got another 40 billion despite their execs being filmed at another high profile resort on the public dime. Obama asserted that oversight would be mandated to prevent this abuse and one month into the bailouts they are violating their promises with no punishment in sight. Man, the dreamers dream, and wealthy laugh all the way to the bank. Or give a nod and a wink sitting in front of the pool.
And then a Cat like Ira asks, "Why are the cynical?"
I was struck by this line in Chernus' essay:
"He doesn't want to be tied to any policy agenda before he even takes office".
In other words, Chernus helped sell us a political pig in a poke. We have no idea what we're getting.
Is that responsible? Buying a pig in a poke (a cloth bag) is a traditional phrase for utter cluelessness: you can bet there's something very wrong with that pig. Or whatever is in the bag.
This is why many of us dwelled so relentlessly on Obama's RECORD. That's the only way to even guess what's in the bag.
At this point, we're going to find out. That's as it should be: after the unmitigated disaster that was the Bush II admin., any Democrat would have no excuse for losing. That's ANY.
I just wish I saw some really good, concrete ideas for "pushing" the new government our way. We can write them letters till we're blue in the face; we've all tried that already, haven't we? Why should they care?
If you have some ideas why they should care, write them up in an article and submit them to CD and every other left-wing website.
Oh, and Mark Marshall has an excellent point: calling us "Lefties" is demeaning and belittling (literally - that's the diminutive.) I don't think Chernus is really one of us, or he wouldn't use that term.
Oregoncharles
I cannot help but think that the Dems viewed the African-American vote much like the Regressive Right viewed the religious vote. They knew they needed the push that the African-American vote would bring, and that 3% would be just enough to put them over the top, hence the nomination of an African-American. Now, once they get the Presidency, they dump the chumps "what brung 'em."
Ahh, American politics....
Obama, manlike god or godlike man?
I accidentally ran into a cspan book weekend show that was obama at nyc barnes and Noble in 2005. That beaming smile was not yet created by the dentist. But, that is nothing out of the ordinary. However, he was speaking to the audience about his book "Dreams of My Father" and he did admit he believes in american exceptionalism.
But maybe one would need that kind of american religious belief in order to even want to run for president. He really was a lot less charismatic three years ago, beautiful smile not withstanding. His entire attitude and presence was rather different then. It was a strange event to look back upon at this time.
He is an unlikely president, i must admit--on paper anyway. I think the fact of his being elected may be the most important part of his presidency.
Obama shows promise.
As one that had to be dragged to vote for him, kicking and screaming the entire trip, I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt, though I have many. But he's obviously the best the dems could muster-up in a long, long time.
Give him a break....for now.
Agreed, moonpie.
I too am willing to give him a break...for now.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
No. No breaks.
What ever happened to "holding his feet to the fire"?
Agreed, Vern - we should hold his feet to the fire.
I'm willing to give him some time to get his feet on the ground first. He has inherited a monumental screw-up and I want to see his plans for tackling it before I light any matches.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
And:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/articles/2008/11/12/obama_softens_ban_on_hiring_lobbyists/
No, when you are still in celebratory mode is when they can pull the bait and switch because it is moving at breakneck speed.
Don't be mesmerized by the shadows cast on the cave walls--see the writing on the wall.
Vern,
I've seen the writing longer than you will know.
Let me be absolutely clear: I voted for and supported and defended the Lesser of the Evils. I voted for the Democrat (I am not one myself). I voted for a corporate candidate in a corporate party within a broken system. I voted clearly understanding this.
Understand my position? I am under NO illusions that Obama is our savior, and never have been. The only reality in any of this is that it could have turned out worse had McCain/Palin won. It only turns out well if we - you and I and everyone reading this - do more than we've done in the past. I'm already starting to do that and pledge that I will continue until this system is on the way to working for the rest of us - to my satisfaction. Which may mean never, but c'est la vie!
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
Like what? Do what?
I've heard that right there on Obama's own site forums there was outrage concerning his FISA vote. Do you think he heeded even his own true believers?
Someone on another thread pointed out that what will bring people out into the streets will be his betrayal because who the hell has the luxury of battling every disappointing trend sure to continue?
And I voted for him too--and took some heat on these threads. I'll be the first to say the celebration was brief.
But see, that's the problem. There is no "Do what?" There is not one great thing or set of actions that will change our course. This is the lie of those who point to Washington and say that all is broken and only voting for them will correct it.
There is no "Do what?" Instead, there are a hundred million "Do this's." It is up to each of us to determine what we can do best to bring about a world we want...then do it. That's it. No grand plan, no blueprint, no Nader, no Obama. You and me and hundreds of millions of others, Vern.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
No government at all?
Right on, Vern! They'll keep whining,"Give him tiiiimmmee," until there is no time left.
I wonder how long we will swing from left to right each side winning by mere percentage points, 48 percent one side 52 percent the other then vice versa, how long will this go on with at least 45 percent of the voting population voting one side and 45 percent voting the other and a few percentage points the deciding factor. That small deciding factor usually pushed by crisis and extremes, wars, recessions, etc. How long will we write long pretty stories about how the person who wins (those stories of course coming as appropriate from the left or the right) depending on the current "winner", ....about how this person is so special and will save the day, or inspire "us".
Always the same thing general thing literally, over and over and over. I guess having the first black man and family in the two party strangle hold will spice it up, and then maybe we can turn to the first woman in the two party strangle hold.
I just don't get the magic here folks, it all looks like frosting on a very bad system.
It's the democrats turn to make it more than just the same sad story in a dichotomy swing that occurs off and on like the seasons.
I do not expect vast change to occur, I expect a system that has not been notably altered to remain the same.
Obama believers expect different. I hope you turn out to be right.
Good point - the system is broken. Third parties will never come to power in this broken system. This is frosting on a very bad system.
So, what are we going to do about it?
Singed,
An Obama believer.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
In fact, that may be the ideal opportunity for 3rd parties to come to power, when the system of "the 2" is broken.
What are "we" going to do about it? First tell me who the "we", in your dictionary, is and then maybe "we'' will figure it out.
Oh, please...be my guest. Get the signatures necessary in all 50 states, then get the 3rd party elected, then take them down to Washington, then just watch them blaze a new trail...in a broken system.
As far as me explaining who "we" is...I guess that depends on what the definition of "is" is. Do a little work and figure it out yourself (hint: look into the nearest mirror).
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
Ted, please explain, If the system of the 2 parties is broken and a 3rd party can't get elected, should we just immediately go to the 4th? or the 5th? Which number should we work with? Or just forget the whole shebang and sit at home gazing at our navels?
.What you offer is being done as we speak here...It would be nice to get a little bit of help though....
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Just stay real, my good man, just stay real. This is the hardest thing to do.
The pendulum, like the hangman's rope, is tethered with knots at the top.
It can sway left or right but is always pulled back towards its center.
Real agents of change know the knot must be untied. Swinging the rope left or right is not change at all; it's merely the illusion of change.
Much like the famed Gordian knot, it cannot be untied, it must be SEVERED!!
Amen - have used that analogy myself on occasion.
keen observation.
and the pendulum will swing again...
and the poor will suffer, Gaia will gasp her last breaths. And Americas youth will continue to die in foreign wars...
In this day and age, we can stand almost anyone with an opinion. Common dreams
should not flag anyone except people who are still dreaming like Pat Lamarche.
She has yet to raise an issue, either as a candidate or a contributor to CD..
Her latest effort to build a casino in Maine Wonderlands failed as it was just
another way for a free meal for Pat. Save the space for real honest contributors.
human industry, which translates into products and jobs, is killing the planet, and will continue to do so...it will do it faster if this effort is escalated, slower if lessened...the choice we are approaching is between industry\products\jobs and a planet to live on...I see many articles promoting jobs juxtaposed with many other articles decrying industry...what the hell are you people thinking? you can't have jobs without industry, or a planet with industry...at some point, the dying planet will step up and swing the mighty bat, and the issue of jobs will become moot...even the fact that you're an American will become moot...really...
"It's understandable that images of steadiness now dominate. Obama knows that you can't use the winds of change to move people who are frightened or insecure. Whatever he may hope to accomplish, he has to keep on reassuring the general public and the power elite that he really is the temperate, self-controlled man they saw throughout the campaign. That's the only way he can be free to put across any policy agenda he comes up with."
I can't argue with this. Too much change frightens people and the last thing we want is even more frightened people.
We tend to say we want change, and we want it now. That's not the way most people are (and I question those who say they are). You want real change, real fast? You can't handle that kind of change! And I hope we don't get it, 'cause it will only happen when everything collapses.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
"Too much change frightens people and the last thing we want is even more frightened people."
Hmmm, I thought the rallying cause of change was the winning battle cry?
Wasn't "change" the point?
Sadly, I think many are in denial about the increasingly dim prospects of hope.
Change is the winning battle cry and the point - and that has already happened to some degree. However, my point is that too much change, too fast, won't happen...unless it needs to. Often, when it needs to happen that quickly, it just happens - no intervention necessary.
There may be dim prospects of hope for some. Too early for me to climb back on that train.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
And precisely how much is "too much" change? and how fast is "too fast"?
"Often, when it needs to happen that quickly, it just happens - no intervention necessary." If that's true, then why bother with politics at all, why not sit just back and let it "happen"? Reminds me of a cartoon that shows a student writing an equation on a black board. On the left side there are a few terms and on the right side a few more and in the middle, as the connecting term, the student writes "and then a miracle happens". The professor says, "I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than that."
It seems to me, Ted, that your position is rather like that of the student .... (and no, I'm not claiming to be the professor)
"It seems to me, Ted, that your position is rather like that of the student .... (and no, I'm not claiming to be the professor)"
What? I don't think I need to expound any more than I have.
BTW, that is a great cartoon. I think we all strive to explain the "miracle" part. Those who claim they know it, I ignore.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
I've done something. With others, I've created a petition to take to President-Elect Obama to convince him to appoint Dr. Linda Darling-Hamilton as Secretary of Education. This would help keep corporate interests out of our schools. She was already on the Obama Campaign's education team, but there is information on her at the petition site and by all means, do a web search on her.
http://www.petitiononline.com/DHammond/petition.html
Thank you.
Dave
So DO SOMETHING!
Tell them what you think:
http://www.change.gov/page/s/yourvision
Sign up to do something:
http://www.change.gov/page/s/application
Obama did win more moderate and independent voters and even a lot of disaffected conservatives. Obama knows what he's doing and he'll probably govern carefully and try to keep the changes for the better coming slow but steady. Let's give Obama a chance to prove himself. Geesh !
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
By being elected president, he has been given a chance to prove himself, are you trying to say that if we protest something that we don't like that he does, that somehow prevents him from acting as promised or having a chance to be a good administrator??????
Most every time I suggest we give Obama a chance I get criticized, corrected or called names here since postings on this site have been dominated by those who don't like him.... Before the election it was all about him being evil or the lesser evil or even the greater evil too. CD is their best shot at getting heard, and that is OK... I understand that reality.
They can't outnumber in the voting booth but they are free here.
If they gave him a chance, they would have nothing much to say, so thats politics.
Geesh! is right.
I well wait and see how it goes when he is President and give him a chance to make peace for the USA.
.Welsh Terrier covered it well, but I would add this:
How does one approach political activism? Do you see such as remaining silent until the course of our nation is set for another four years? Or do you attempt to sway the helmsman prior to setting the course?
You insist upon giving our president elect time to make his rep. I would say that his campaign and his first appointment are both a clarion call to progressives that their agenda is not in the forefront of the Obama presidency. Once a large ship is committed to a course it is far harder to alter that course, thus your call for patience is , in my opinion, counter productive.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Jim Glover November 11th, 2008 5:02 pm
"They can't outnumber in the voting booth but they are free here.
If they gave him a chance, they would have nothing much to say, so thats politics."
If we all sang Kumba-ya about Obama regardless of what he said or did I can tell you that there would be very few posts here. What would be the point? I am certainly willing to give Obama credit when he does something worthy of it, such as I did yesterday about his plans to close Guantanamo. However, I also reserve the right to disagree when I don't agree with what he says and does and to disagree with those who support him when I feel they are wrong.
Lobo Gris
Of course you have the right...and when he closes Gitmo, Kumba-ya would be great.
I believe Originally an African folksong for freedom.... thank you.
For me, it's not about "giving Obama a chance." I, like you, have an agenda. I have values and views and policies I'd like to see enacted. Obama has never even addressed my concerns let alone agreed with them.
In fact, I watched Obama and the others as they pushed Kucinich and Gravel out of the debates. Then I watched as he and McCain debated without any voice being given to third party candidates. Totally unacceptable.
If Obama does something good, I'll be glad to praise him. That doesn't mean, however, that his failure to even raise the issues I'm concerned about should result in my silence now. I criticize him NOW because he has not spoken out or campaigned on the things I consider most critical.
Worse, he's clearly made some statements that are deeply disturbing. For example, he's called for expanded war in Afghanistan! He can't be serious. Is this what we should take a "wait and see" attitude about? I take him at his word, don't you?
So, it's not about "the guy isn't even in office yet"; it's that I'm dissatisfied that he hasn't led and spoken on the issues that concern me the most and I see no indication that he ever will.
So much for his "inclusiveness" agenda, huh?
You know, I try to be polite. I really do. You can't persuade people while you're insulting them. There's far too much of that if we're serious about making any progress at all. Having said that, this article is yet another grand pile-o-dung in a seemingly endless series.
First, we're offered: "For those of us who still use that word "revolution" to describe the economic and political as well as social changes we'd like to see in the world ..."
Is the author suggesting he's a revolutionary and that he advocates revolution? It sounds like he's trying to put on a disguise to fit in with many here. He couldn't sound more centrist if he tried. The whole article is totally phony.
What radical political or economic changes has this author called for? Answer: NONE.
The next garbage being sold is that Obama is a "pragmatist." One might reasonably define a pragmatist as a person who is not tied to any ideological agenda but just wants to get things done. Let's be clear on this: what Obama is doing is NOT going to solve the great problems confronting us. His bailouts and stimulus packages will, at best, restore the status quo. Treating the symptoms without even acknowledging the disease is NOT pragmatic.
The author droned on and on and on before the election about how we had to pitch in to elect Obama and then really fight for change after he got elected. Do you see the author proposing any specifics? I sure don't.
Our "revolutionary" author suggests "if we think strategically, we can catch the new wind and steer the nation a bit to the left." Does that sound radical or revolutionary to you?
The author is way too timid. He's a classic Democratic Party liberal. This business about "we won't get change if we scare people" is "status quo" talk. We have to have the courage to introduce radical new ideas into the national discourse. The author is ruled by fear. If Obama is as articulate and calming and rational as he's given credit for, he should be very effective in introducing radical change.
Would Americans be scared if he told them that the most effective way to get our national debt under control and start rebuilding the domestic economy is to stop all this global military adventurism? I think most Americans would rejoice at hearing that we're going to invest in America instead of policing the entire world.
I use the words "shutting down the corporate empire"; Obama wouldn't need to use the same words. Americans understand the staggering costs of two wars and the corruptions inherent in the military appropriations process. They may not know the details but they get the basic idea. Mr. Scared Author is worried Obama will lose his political capital and so he recommends against doing the right thing. He calls this "pragmatism."
What might indeed scare Americans is having Obama tell them the truth about global warming. The author apparently believes it's somehow pragmatic to continue the big lie and let Obama's politically palatable, moderate "solution", adding a little "nudge to the left" of course, be the policy we "lefties" should compromise on. You don't get to "compromise" with global warming. It seems unwilling to negotiate. Anything less than what the science demands is not "moderate"; it's not "building a progressive coalition based on political realities"; it's not maturity or pragmatism; it's dangerous and misguided. So, on this issue, yes, people might be terrified of the implications. Is it pragmatic to keep lying to them? I'd call it insane.
Last point - I do not agree with: "He won't succeed if he says or does anything that might look unexpected, impulsive, or the least bit radical."
Obama has to use the bully pulpit to lead the nation towards the radical changes we so urgently need. He does not need to be rash or rattled or seem emotional about it but he does have to start educating the public about the changes. The author conflates radical changes with a destabilizing, overly emotional presentation of them. The two are not the same. If Obama continues in "campaign mode" and plays it safe, he will be a status quo President when a revolutionary leader is what's really needed.
I'm sorry to say this, I really am, but the author is clueless. Change results from laying out a vision of change. Incrementalism, as in "nudging a bit to the left", in the face of crisis will only make things worse.
This whole Obama must be timid, pragmatic, baby-stepping & govern from the center is the talking points out there from Pelosi ("If anyone can show me evidence of a crime") to Republican pundits cautioning Obama to not be too bold. Believe it or not, it was Tweety Matthews who blew it apart when he lost his patience and demanded to know how Reagan with less of a mandate and Bush--who lost the popular vote (and stole elections) unquestioningly imposed their world view.
I must agree with you, and add that I'm sorry to see that your comment has been flagged.
It has been demonstrated for a very long time that the various elements of the right wing feel no such incrementalist constraint. The corporatists and te culture warriors have been dogmatic and radical in their own way, and they have largely gotten what they want, aided in part by the absence of opposition.
If Prof. Chernus is arguing that principled insistence cannot work, we have the recent past to show that it has worked all too well against what we want. If, on the other hand, Prof. Chernus is arguing for more accomodation with reactionary forces, then we also have the Clinton administration to study for how well that model works.
We need to change the political discourse. Accomodation is a bad choice.
Absolutely.
For example, there is no need to triangulate about getting out of the middle east. It is simply the right thing to do, not just morally, but economically and politically. Who cares if the right wing talking heads, war-pushers, military contractors, arms merchants, and their allies in Congress get upset?
Sioux Rose
WELSH TERRIER: Excellent analysis.
i see this comment has been flagged. could the person who has done so take responsibility and tell us why she or he has chosen to flag this comment?
How can you tell when a comment has been flagged?
Joe
Not only that but what does it mean?
Rickster
You can tell it's been flagged by looking at the bottom right, where right now, you likely see: report this comment (underlined).
If a reader (one of us) clicks on 'report this comment', it changes to 'flagged', or something such. Then (and only then, I believe) the CD staff looks at it and if it violates their usage policies, they remove it. If not, they de-flag it.
But...if your page isn't refreshed at the right time, you can miss it--either the article is removed, or it's de-flagged. Today, several people were going on about a flagged article that I couldn't see; apparently, by the time I refreshed, CD had de-flagged it.
I think that's how it works. (I think I've had one article removed, if I remember correctly. I simply asked after a particularly stupid post: "Are you on acid?". The next time I checked, my insulting question was gone. Sensible. My comment was just an insult, and there's no need for that.)
Have I got that right? Anybody, please correct me if that's not the way it works.
Thank you for the explanation. Flagging sounds far less desirable than responding honestly with disagreements. I cannot see how it would be used except if there are obvious lies, character assassinations, long, incoherent, repetitive screeds that interfere with reading the comments of others.
Joe
I totally agree. It's obviously so easy to flag if you disagree with an opinion, which is not (or should not) be the point. We have lots of space to vent, so debating is the way to go. I would hope the CD staff removes pieces for more or less the reasons you mention.
About repetition, I did come across on another site, a regular poster on CD who would simply copy/paste a pro-Nader rant (on this site) in the weeks leading up to the election. On the other site, she (she had a female moniker so I assume...) complained that she'd been shut down here. I presumed that it was for her repetitive 'ads', that frankly, were annoying, and involved no debating points.
getreal November 12th, 2008 6:22 pm, I think you're talking about 'Nannie' who had a penchant for posting screeds urging people to vote for Nader but rarely engaged in any debate on the subject. I seem to recall that I asked her some questions about Nader and she responded with something like "We need Nader now!" repeated about 20 times, if memory serves.
But Nannie's the exception: Most of the posters here, especially compared to some other sites, are generally intelligent and have something to say, even the ones who disagree with me.
Hey, Nannie was all right! She at least presented her candidate's position using his own words, which is more than you seem to be able to do for Obama.
Aquifer November 15th, 2008 10:58 pm, repeatedly posting 'Vote for Nader -- I'll feel better and so will you!' is not presenting Nader in his own words by any stretch of the imagination.
You've got it. That's who it was and you're right, most Naderites were more than willing to debate, which is perfectly fine, obviously.
I agree with what you said, generally. Although, I did find before the election a few too many Rovian agents pretending to be Naderites and repeating ad nauseum Obama's supposed sins, and how he was no different than McCain or Bush!!!??? Obviously trying to skim off some progressive votes to 3rd-party candidates and reduce Obama's numbers, to McCain's advantage.
I find Naderites often repetive and not all that logical--building a (much-needed) 3rd party by running for president!? No!
But still, the level of debate on this site is very high and I do appreciate those Naderites with their 'enthusiasm' and their usually good research. They do make people think and come up with the goods. Although their insults of Obama and his followers are often over the top and illogical, and often blend in with the foolishness of the loony right.
But anybody who believes that deeply in something and are willing to offer such spirited defence of their beliefs are always interesting to me.
Thank you! How wonderfully condescending of you!
getreal November 15th, 2008 2:23 am, as I've posted, I was an enthusiastic and faithful supporter of Ralph Nader in 2000, so I know the way some of the Nader supporters feel. But when Nader failed to do his best to build the Green Party following the 2000 election, and then ran as an independent in 2004, I lost my trust in the man and began revising my opinion of him.
Nader, unfortunately and unrealistically, wants the whole loaf or nothing at all, which is one of his biggest problems; Obama, by contrast, may not be as progressive as Ralph, but he offers a few slices of bread to a nation that is starving, and he knows how to accomplish his goals. Nader has lost that talent. For all of his years of campaigning, he can't even qualify for federal matching funds. The reasonable person might change course; Ralph apparently can't.
Ralph is also inflexible to a fault in his opinions; times and situations change, but Nader does not, and that's another thing that has held him back -- he is not so much progressive as calcified these days.
None of us are without flaws, and I still like most of Ralph's ideas but, at this point, he seems content to sit back and complain rather than try to get in the game and make a difference. Forty years ago he went to court to effect change; today, he just sells his books. Nothing wrong with that, but he could have spent his time either building a true viable progressive third party, or having some real influence within the Democratic Party. Ralph's an intelligent man and, since he failed to do either, I'm at a loss as to why he keeps uselessly running for president. No one in power is listening to him anymore as he's consistently portrayed in the media these days as either a nutcase or spoiler. He has squandered his sterling reputation as a true reformer for what -- to accept campaign help from the GOP, appear on Fox News, and lose most of his former friends on the left? I can't make any sense of it and, thus far, neither have any of his current crop of supporters. (They don't even try.) This is what I meant by 'pathetic' -- a man who spent much of his life doing good work has apparently just crawled up inside his own ego the past eight years. (I guess 'bathetic' might be a better word to use.) I don't doubt his sincerity, but his methodology stinks. It's been sad to see Ralph fall so far from where he started.
Great comments; thanks. I agree with you about Nader, and unless it's because he's saddled with a very peculiar personality (likely), I find it hard to understand some of his tactics in the last few years.
I want to exchange with you but I don't have time right now. Later on today, I hope I have some time to chat.
I'd be happy to discuss my views with whoever flagged it.
Frankly, I think it's a bit cowardly to flag a comment without even making an argument.
Chernus is saying what most liberal and leftist commentators have been saying for several weeks, and in unison since the election. We don't really know what Obama will do, he's under no obligation to tell us, and we must simply hope he accedes to progressive wishes. Meanwhile, we have to admire his "pragmatism" as some stroke of political genius; he clearly knows better than any of us how to proceed. We must sit in awe of his towering superiority, learn to STFU and meet our adversaries half way, because even they know better than we do. We're the problem, not Obama and not the radical right. We have to fall in line behind incremental pragmatism because that's all we deserve and all we're going to get. And they all claim Obama is going to do what he himself said he wouldn't do--like provide universal health care, withdraw from Iraq, clean up Wall St. He made vague and easily betrayed promises in those general directions, and from there we must sing praises and hallelujas. Krugman is under the illusion Obama's going to deliver universal health care, for example, and that's that. No amount of telling him different matters. Illusion about Obama rules reality. I want to believe he'll get us out of Iraq, therefore he will. Quit carping and resume worshiping.
Depressing, ain't it?
Best analysis so far i have read of where Obama and the future GOP are headed. I think we are bound to be quite disappointed.
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2008/11/sarah-palin-is-the-future-of-conservatism.html
Read the above Joe, and couldn't disagree more.
By the time Sarah Palin is ready to come on the scene again, short of terrible disasters that wipe most of us out, I think we as a nation will have grown up some because of the qualities of Barack Obama and how he will govern and all the changes that must come in these next few years to create a sustainable future for the planet and the people of the world.
Sarah Palin is very ignorant and shallow, and unless she goes through an enormous metamorphosis, I don't think she will get very far toward the presidency.
I did hear on NPR today that Newt Gingrinch is planning a comeback to get the in-splinters Republican party to become whole and on the same page, and he is also hinting that he is going to make a run for the presidency in 2012.
He was quite effective with "The Contract for America," even though it contributed to the mess we are in now.
However, the demographics have changed in this election. Four years from now the young college-age people who came alive for this election will either be disillusioned or more gung-ho, and even if disillusioned, I do not see them turning toward Sarah Palin or Newt Gingrinch because they are too broad-minded for the Sarah Palin nonsense and Newt is getting on in years and if he plays the same or similar tune, I don't think it will resonate with enough Republican voters to make it fly again.
Then there are the great increases in the Latino vote, the African-American votes, and I do not see them turning toward Sarah Palin or Newt Gingrich.
And etcetera ...
Obama is a sea-change, and the Nation and the attitudes of the people of this Nation are going to change a lot just because he is who he is and how he conducts himself and how he speaks. Sarah Palin, given her rigid belief systems and lack of knowledge, and her pit-bull-with-lipstick mentality who attacks and hangs on to her attack mode will likely find less of an audience who will have become more sophisticated and more used to a civilized president. Palin will be 50, and even though she likely will still be a very good-looking woman, winkin' and blinkin' like a beauty-queen pageant contestant may seem absolutely ludicrous for people now used to a statesmanlike president who is very grown up.
I suspect a new face will appear for the Republicans. They will be looking for one among governors and within the Congress, but I don't think it will be Sarah Palin.
And certainly the mostly dreary group that were the Republican candidates for 2008, except perhaps for Mitt Romney, will not reappear, mainly because of age, and viscerally, even Republicans perceive Romney as an opportunistic, changeling used-car salesman.
At this moment, however, I ain't gonna' worry about four years from now. Just these couple of months until the inauguration of Obama is more than enough.
peace ...
I have to agree with Ira's critics who are pointing out the Pollyannish tenor of his op-ed. At the risk of repeating myself I feel the below thoughts originally entered for other articles, are very pertininent for this discussion. Mea Culpa & Istaughferallah.
I'm afraid that Obama's election will not lessen racism.
It has most definitely put an end to the 'powerlessness' of minorities. Did you see the looks on kid's faces as they watched videos of Obama's victory speech from Tues. night?
Their expressions of hope and 'YES, I CAN were priceless sights to behold.
Nothing can ever change those moments - the genie is out of the bottle for good!!!
Obama will most assuredly disappoint many of his supporters, but that will not change what has already taken place. His election alone has changed the landscape.
We can only hope he will make wise decisions and change the course of our policies as well. He did bring that element to the table - HOPE!
As long as the US arms industry continues to control our policies, NO CHANGE. We sometimes forget that the US is the largest arms supplier to countries around the world and it is our largest export trade.
The military-industrial corporate complex controls this country's policies. It has bought and paid for the government.
If there were not wars, there would be no demand. Some could actually say that waging peace IS un-American, because peace would actually have a negative impact on our balance of trade.
But I could be wrong!!!!!!
With all due respect, yet another piece that implies it's all about Obama, as if he were a dictator who "could be powerful enough to sweep the ship of state great distances in a relatively short time -- though in what direction, no one can yet say."
Only if Congress lets him. Period. Remember - Bush illegally invaded Iraq because Congress let him. Patriot Act? Congress. Immunity for corporations guilty of aiding and abetting illegal spying? Congress. Bank Robber Bailout Act of 2008? Congress. Trillion-dollar Pentagon budget? Congress. And on and on...
We The People could be powerful enough to sweep the ship of state great distances in a relatively short time - if we force our representatives to do our bidding, which includes reminding them to read Article II of our Constitution...
I certainly hope Chernus is not a typical Obama supporter. As I sat here reading this, my jaw dropped farther and farther - I might as well have been at a ceremony nominating him for sainthood, or even deification.
I am a real skeptic regarding our new Pres. (actually skeptic is putting it rather mildly) but reading this I felt downright frightened. If Obama has the ability to provoke such ecstatic encomiums and induce such slavelike obeisance, even before he ascends the bully pulpit, we are in deep do-do indeed. I think that as we try to navigate the coming seas in our little boat, we would do best to lash ourselves to the mast and put wax in our ears lest we all be driven to distraction as has this poor fellow.
Aquifer has netted a fine observation, and heaved it on the deck for all to behold. And it's an ugly spectacle. Chernus' essay is hopeful praise, untempered by informed opinion. It is something that's very unhelpful for the body politic, which very much needs to be on its guard.
A Democratic loyalist like Chernus is able to hold out hope while proferring contradictions. It's the many-tentacled octopus of the loyalist Dem voter.
Chernus' essay is a tangled mess. I think he kind of acknowledges some problems, but then he changes direction and then starts doing a praise-the-lord thing about Obama. So, the comment below that Chernus "couldn't be more clear" is just plain wrong.
Everyone should understand that as President, Obama is the people's servant. Anybody who thinks Obama should be Jesus or Caesar or both just doesn't get American history, the founding fathers' ideas about government and Civics 101. If Obama ups the bombings in Pakistan and Afghanistan, I sure hope loyalist Dems won't sit back and think there must be some deep wisdom in it all. I hope they will be clear on unjust, illegal and immoral wars, and then join the protests in the streets.
But first, Democrats need to see the contradictions: hopeful rhetoric and militarist policies - it's an unworkable combination. Leave that kind of stuff to Republicans, who just can't help themselves.
-TIA
Yes, I hear the Sirens sing! How sweet it is. There is no hope for you Aquifer. You are doomed to live in fear or, egad, if the wax should loosen,... oh, but it's too horrible to contemplate!
Greg,
Do you remember what happened to those who heard the Sirens' song? Odysseus saved himself, his crew and his ship by lashing himself to the mast and having his crew put wax in their ears. He did it, not out of fear, but out of his desire to preserve his "hope" of survival. Sorry, but the tone of Chernus' piece sounds very much to me like someone caught in a Siren's song. My "fear" is that Obama adulation is so deep that too many will not even notice, let alone protest, if, under his influence, we go down for the 3rd time. Lord save us from "charismatic" leaders.
I may be doomed, but it won't be by gullibility .....
Aquifer November 12th, 2008: "I may be doomed, but it won't be by gullibility ....."
No, you'll be doomed by pure cynicism. Constant cynicism is as annoying and unrealistic as perpetual sunny optimism. Both are fated to be disappointed. Even one of America's great cynics, H.L. Mencken, wrote: "The cynics are right nine times out of ten."
Your problem, Aquifer, is that you've doomed yourself to miss that tenth time.
Well, let's just say that I am no more cynical about Obama than you are about Nader. I have seen your "reality" and I want something better.
Aquifer November 13th, 2008 3:54 pm: "Well, let's just say that I am no more cynical about Obama than you are about Nader. I have seen your "reality" and I want something better."
Aquifer, I'll answer your longer post tomorrow, but just a comment here: I am not, as you obviously think, in the tank for Obama. He'll be, at best, a center-left president and I don't agree with him about everything he's done, nor do I anticipate agreeing with him completely in the future. I supported Obama because he's intelligent, his election broke the barrier to minorities, he will be a improvement over Bush or McCain, and he had a chance of getting elected, which Ralph did not. You have hardly 'seen my reality,' as Obama has not even taken office yet.
As I've prevously posted at CD in various threads, I supported Nader enthusiastically in 2000 with my money and time. I had no illusions he'd win, but Nader promised he'd build the Greens into a viable progressive third party; a promise he reneged on by 2004 when he ran as an independent. Even this election, he couldn't get the support of the Green Party. This bespeaks a man who is rigidly inflexible and turns a deaf ear to others who even mildly disagree (ask some former Nader's Raiders), two qualities we have experienced in a president the past eight years. Ralph has become a fanatic who doesn't work well with others -- as president, he wouldn't be able to push any bills through Congress, so he couldn't possibly fulfill his promises of universal health care and full employment, etcetera. (But perhaps you'd prefer a King Ralph who rules by fiat?)
Ralph also no longer has the support of Michael Moore, Bill Murray, and many other avid backers he had in 2000. Even Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn grudingly supported Obama this election. None of these people are Corporatists nor Plutocrats, but they can't abide Nader any longer -- doesn't that make you think for a moment? As Chomsky wrote:
"Despite the limited differences [between Democrats and Republicans] both domestically and internationally, there are differences. In a system of immense power, small differences can translate into large outcomes."
Obama's election is a large difference that I think will have a larger outcome, if progressives keep pressure on him to keep his promises and adhere to the Constitution in the use of his power. But, even if he's a centrist, we'll be better off than under warmonger McCain. As Rebecca Solnit wrote:
"Obama does not cancel out or heal the legacies of racism, but in becoming the most powerful man in the world he signifies that the game has indeed changed, not just ground to a halt partway to justice and equality. The inner-city kids I see in my neighborhood and the murderous racists I've encountered recently in New Orleans are both going to think about their place in the world and their rights differently from this day forward. And that matters immensely, whatever the man being voted into power today does, or does not, achieve."
-- Rebecca Solnit, "A Great Day ..." Tom Dispatch, Nov. 7, 2008.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/11/07
As Solnit also wrote:
"A lot of activists expect that for every action there is an equal and opposite and punctual reaction, and regard the lack of one as failure... But history is shaped by the groundswells and common dreams that single acts and moments only represent. It's a landscape more complicated than commensurate cause and effect. Politics is a surface in which transformation comes about as much because of pervasive changes in the depths of the collective imagination as because of visible acts, though both are necessary. And though huge causes sometimes have little effect, tiny ones occasionally have huge consequences. History is like weather, not like checkers. A game of checkers ends. The weather never does."
-- Rebecca Solnit, "Acts of Hope," TomDispatch, May, 2003.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/677/rebecca_solnit_on_hope_in_dark_times
That's a fair summation of the way I feel about Obama's election.
Finally, two quotes from the past, the first from Walter Lippman in 1932:
"Franklin D. Roosevelt is no crusader. He is no tribune of the people. He is no enemy of entrenched privilege. He is a pleasant man who, without any important qualifications for the office, would very much like to be President."
-- Walter Lippmann, New York Herald Tribune, January 8, 1932.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4D91639F932A05750C0A966958260
Sounds familiar, doesn't it? And this from FDR himself:
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Look at how the right-wing noise machine loathes Obama. That's a very good sign.
The fact that Nader no longer has the support of Michael Moore .... Well considering that he backed Wesley Clark in '04, I don't consider his judgment terribly impressive.
If one is to be judged by the enemies one has made - Nader's corporate enemies, including the DLC noise machine, continually being folded into the Obama admin, are an excellent advertisement for his worth.
Aquifer,
Reading your post, I'm left wondering if you actually read what Chernus wrote. His entire essay was based on skepticism about Obama. He made it pretty clear in his third paragraph:
"Let's be honest, though. For those of us who still use that word "revolution" to describe the economic and political as well as social changes we'd like to see in the world, and the changes in domestic and foreign policy we'd like to see in our government, Barack Obama seems to be far from the president we want. He appears to be a pragmatist. He will probably govern from slightly left of center, much like Bill Clinton and John Kennedy. That's certainly the impression he is giving in his first days as president-elect."
I don't know how he could have been any clearer.
Ah, yes, the 3rd, out of 18 paragraphs. As for the other 17, let's see -
"Barack Obama is the name of a person. 'Obama' is also the name of a new mood -- a new tone and sensibility -- that has somehow risen up in every section of this country." - Not only is he a person, he's a "mood", my, my.
" 'Obama' as a symbol is the name for a wind of change that could be powerful enough to sweep the ship of state great distances in a relatively short time -- though in what direction, no one can yet say." - now his is the name of a wind of change, that could blow us off the end of the earth for all we know.
"While resisting Obama's unacceptable compromises, we should accept the wisdom of his strategic pragmatism. He himself can teach us the best way to oppose his policies." - we should surrender to his wisdom, even as we "resist" his UNACCEPTABLE compromises. And of course, he will teach us how to oppose him!?
"That's why Obama is so widely admired. He won, not by offering specific new policy ideas, but by uniting in himself the seemingly opposite images of change and steady predictability. He presented himself as the dynamic leader who could "change the world" while remaining always safe and solid, poised and unflappable, never likely to do anything rash or impulsive." - now isn't it wonderful that we have a Pres who is all image and no substance and carries it off with SUCH poise!
"Whatever he may hope to accomplish, he has to keep on reassuring the general public and the power elite that he really is the temperate, self-controlled man they saw throughout the campaign. That's the only way he can be free to put across any policy agenda he comes up with." - is that what his followers want, someone who is free to put across any policy agenda he comes up with? Good Grief! Isn't that what we just had 8 years of?
"We don't have to appear as cautious and timid as Obama. We couldn't, even if we wanted to." - Thank heavens for that!
Chernus obviously worships the fellow and would follow him anywhere he cares to take him - the fact that "We could end up almost anywhere .." doesn't seem to phase him one bit.
As for his "3rd paragraph", I don't interpret it as skepticism of him as a leader, far from it, I read it as a rebuke to those of us who want something other than what the new and glorious leader deigns to give us, whatever that is.
I'm sorry but this piece sounds more like something a follower of Jim Jones would write - that's why, if his view is typical, my first impulse is to say "be afraid, be very afraid". Unless of course this is just a submission for a Jon Stewart or SNL script.
And then there is reality. He will have to nationalize at least one big bank, maybe more, for the financial system to start working. He will have to spend huge amounts of money on infrastructure, and that will put him on a collision course with the military-industrial-infotainment beast that is sucking the life out of this country. There is no way around it - guns or butter. He will, indeed, need a lot of help.
Ira Chernus wrote: "a black family is on its way to the White House".
That is an exaggeration. Actually, only one black person is going to the White House, and that is Michelle Obama. Her husband and children are all mixed-race.
Mark Marshall
Toronto
You know...everybody's aware of that...you're not teaching anybody anything, and frankly, it just sounds picky and petty. We all know there's more to it than color of skin, but THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SEE!!! People who discriminate don't ask for geneological info. to determine whether they should discriminate to a factor of 50%, or 25%... He's black because he looks black. Period. He's African-American, because he's African-American.
This is not a worthy windmill for you to go after.
Oh dear - I seem to have hit a nerve. Sorry.
Mark Marshall
Toronto
In fact, Michelle Obama, like most African Americans, is probably also mixed race. It is common practice in the US to refer to someone as "black" who has at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry. When a person of mixed-race encounters a racist in, say, a job interview, they do not get partial credit for their white half: they are treated as "black". Hence the term is used to describe a historically oppressed minority, mixed-race or not.
To meet someone halfway, he has to be moving towards you.
To achieve balance when there's a lot of weight on one side, you need an equal weight on the other side.
The "center" can't be the gap between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. That "center" is always moving to the right.
PS It still seems odd to me to call Clinton center-left when his policies were to the right of Richard Nixon.
Can we please stop saying "lefties"? It sounds like we're not serious. Do rightists call themselves "righties"? To conservatives call themselves "conservies"? Do nationalists call themselves "naties"? (I know: in 20th century Germany they called themselves "nazis". That kind of thing works in German. In English it just looks silly)
Our language has a perfectly good word to describe people who support left-wing policies, and that word is "leftist".
Mark Marshall
Toronto
"It doesn’t matter that he sides with destruction of the Palestinians, and sides with the embargo. It doesn’t matter that he turns his back on 100 million people and won’t even campaign in minority areas. It doesn’t matter than he wants a bigger military budget, and an imperial foreign policy supporting various adventures of the Bush administration. It doesn’t matter that he’s for the death penalty ,which is targeted at minorities. But if you say one thing that isn’t PC, you get their attention. I tell college audiences, a gender, racial or ethnic slur gets you upset, but reality doesn’t get you upset."
Ralph Nader
auspiciousbunny November 11th, 2008 1:32 pm, I challenge you to produce any reputable independent source for Nader's contention that Obama wants the destruction of the Palestinian people.
I challenge you to produce any reputable independent source for Nader's contention that he has turned his back on 100 million people or that he has not campaigned in minority areas.
I challenge you to produce any reputable independent source for Nader's contention that by asking for more money for the military, he is doing anything beyond underwriting our commitment to treat veterans and their families properly and rebuilding the force that Bush has nearly broken by overdeployment and poor equipment.
I challenge you to produce any reputable independent source for Nader's contention that Obama intends to pursue an imperialist foreign policy and supports Bush's foreign adventures; he has stated repeatedly his goal in Afghanistan is to get rid of Al-Qaeda terrorists and unite that nation without the murderous Taliban in charge. Does Nader think the tens of thousands who would be killed if the Taliban took over in that country again would not constitute a genocide caused by our withdrawal?
Finally, those who know Obama say he is personally against the death penalty and when a State Senator in Illinois he sponsored legislation to videotape suspects in capital cases to lessen its use. It's true that for political reasons he did not want the death penalty to be an issue in his campaign, but he will certainly employ it more sparingly than have the Republicans in federal cases, and appoint judges that will not support its flagrant use to fight crime.
I say this as someone who supported Nader in 2000 and admire him for his legal work in the area of public safety and protection from corporate excess: Tell Ralph Nader that if he wants a true dose of reality, run for a lesser office than president for a change, one he has a chance of winning -- governor, senator, congressman -- and get his hands dirty in the political process before criticizing others as he 'campaigns' to nab publicity to sell his books.
Let's see what kind of voting record Mr. Nader has after a term in Congress, and what kind of excuses he makes for falling short of perfect.
Nader did not contend that Obama WANTS the destruction of the Palestinian people, he merely pointed out that Obama sides completely with the Israeli gov't - which is, and has been for some time, engaged in the steady destruction of the Palestinians. I don't think that either part of this statement can be seriously questioned.
Turning his back on 100 million people refers to the fact that he never once mentioned "the poor" in his campaign. His sympathies were always with the "middle class". Can you recite his appearances in minority areas? I don't remember seeing reports of same.
Where ever did you get the idea that more money for the military is only for veterans? That's a new one on me. He has stated that he wants to increase the size of the military, a bigger Army and more Marines. And he has stated that he wants to increase the number of troops in Afghanistan, or did you miss that, even though it's pretty widely considered that bin Laden is in Pakistan. We've been trying to "get rid of Al-Qaeda terrorists" for over 7 years now and all we have managed to do is blow up a lot of weddings. As far as uniting the country without the Taliban, we "blew" that one, if there ever was a chance, some time ago. Haven't you heard, we are now going to talk to them. We've done such a good job of "uniting" Iraq (except for their unity in wanting us out), I'm sure we'll do even better in Afghanistan. As for the "genocide", so we should kill them instead? The Afghanis are getting pretty mad at us over there, or hadn't you heard?
As for being against the death penalty, why did he criticize the SC ruling that outlawed it for crimes that did not result in death? As for "employing it more sparingly", he can't employ it at all - he's not a judge, and I don't think he is likely to serve on a jury. Videotaping a suspect's testimony may help keep a defendant from being convicted of a crime unfairly, but it has no bearing on whether he gets the death penalty if convicted. And he did not discuss it for POLITICAL reasons? I'm sure those on death row will give him a buy for that. "Those who know Obama" say he doesn't support it, but what does Obama say?
Look, you may like Obama for whatever reason, but please don't put words in his mouth or ideas in his head that aren't there.
As for telling Nader what office to run for, how "Democratic" of you. Personally, I think Obama should have stayed in the Senate.
Aquifer November 12th, 2008: "Nader did not contend that Obama WANTS the destruction of the Palestinian people, he merely pointed out that Obama sides completely with the Israeli gov't - which is, and has been for some time, engaged in the steady destruction of the Palestinians. ...."
It's absurd to think that a President Obama, who wants to negotiate for peace there, would sit by if Israel tried to massacre Palestinians wholesale.
"Turning his back on 100 million people refers to the fact that he never once mentioned "the poor" in his campaign. … Can you recite his appearances in minority areas? …"
You're wrong -- he mentioned both the middle-class and working poor on several occasions. As far as appearing in 'minority areas,' that's also ludicrous -- the man was attracting tens of thousands to his speeches – which urban area should he have snarled up traffic to campaign in? -- and minorities were in abundance at his rallies. BTW, perhaps you can tell me why Ralph Nader called Obama an 'Uncle Tom'? When did honky Ralph transmute into H. Rap Brown and arrogate to himself the position of determining what candidates are acceptable to blacks? A majority of black people liked Obama -- who is Massah Nader to say they're wrong? That's insulting and demeaning and Ralph should be ashamed of himself.
Source: "Ralph Nader calls Obama 'Uncle Tom'…" San Francisco Chronicle, Nov. 5, 2008.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=24&entry_id=32372
"Where ever did you get the idea that more money for the military is only for veterans? … He has stated that he wants to increase the size of the military … And he has stated that he wants to increase the number of troops in Afghanistan, or did you miss that, even though it's pretty widely considered that bin Laden is in Pakistan."
I got the idea because Obama has stated many times that we need more money for veterans and their families, and he's sponsored legislation in the US Senate to provide expanded assistance. He wants to add troops to replenish the military to former readiness levels and so that we have an updated military force should we ever need one. Yes, he wants to increase troops in Afghanistan for the reasons stated in my previous post, and Afghanistan would be the jumping off point to capture Al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan, should the Pakistani government refuse to act.
"We've been trying to "get rid of Al-Qaeda terrorists" for over 7 years now and all we have managed to do is blow up a lot of weddings. As far as uniting the country without the Taliban, we "blew" that one … some time ago. Haven't you heard, we are now going to talk to them. We've done such a good job of "uniting" Iraq (except for their unity in wanting us out), I'm sure we'll do even better in Afghanistan. As for the "genocide", so we should kill them instead? The Afghanis are getting pretty mad at us over there, or hadn't you heard?"
I have heard all of that, but apparently you haven't heard that Obama is an entirely different person than Bush, and will take an entirely different approach.
"As for being against the death penalty, why did he criticize the SC ruling that outlawed it for crimes that did not result in death?"
Why not give a reliable independent source for this claim or at least some quotes from Obama? I certainly didn't hear him criticize the Supreme Court in this matter.
"As for "employing it more sparingly", he can't employ it at all - he's not a judge, and I don't think he is likely to serve on a jury".
You should educate yourself on how our federal government works. The president can pardon or commute sentences of federal prisoners.
"Videotaping a suspect's testimony may help keep a defendant from being convicted of a crime unfairly, but it has no bearing on whether he gets the death penalty if convicted. And he did not discuss it for POLITICAL reasons? … "Those who know Obama" say he doesn't support it, but what does Obama say?"
That's right -- incredibly enough, politicians do things for political reasons -- that's why Obama got elected and has the power to change things and Nader does not. Nader's 'glorious loser-for-the-truth' act is getting annoying. FDR was a politician, too, and none of the liberal social programs he passed that originated with Eugene Debs and others could have become law unless FDR were first elected. The same holds true with LBJ -- he was a politician and a bastard but, without him, the civil rights acts, not to mention Medicare and other progressive legislation, would never have gotten through Congress. Obama is a political pragmatist who believes you first have to get elected to get things done. If Nader were more of a pragmatic politician, he might be president now. As it is, he didn't even attract enough votes in 2008 to qualify for federal matching funds.
"As for telling Nader what office to run for, how "Democratic" of you. Personally, I think Obama should have stayed in the Senate."
That's a dodge: Why doesn't Nader run for Congress? In 2012 he'd have some political experience, a record to run on, and media connections to help a presidential bid. What is he afraid of -- that Washington will taint him? If so, why is he participating in grubby politics by running for president?
For months I've read posts in various CD threads demeaning the supposedly starry-eyed, naive Obamabots (a creature I have yet to personally encounter), often posted by Naderites. You guys should really look in a mirror; Nader has done some good things, but he is not above reproach. If you want me to back that up, just ask. Or are you afraid of what you'll discover about your tin demigod?
1) Well he's "sat by", i.e. hasn't objected, to anything Israel has done so far. So it has to be "wholesale massacre" before he should at least object? How many must die and by what means before it qualifies as a "wholesale massacre" in your book? (and which book is that, by the way?)
2)Watch the FOX video again, and again if you have to, to see what Nader really said, it's even in print on the screen. He said Obama had a CHOICE about what kind of uncle he wanted to be, Uncle Sam or Uncle Tom (leave it to FOX!)
3)so, even though, he, Obama, has NOT publicly opposed the death penalty, for "political" reasons, we know he opposes it because somebody said that those who know, whoever they are, said he does (are you one of them?), and he is going to prove it by pardoning or commuting the sentences of all those who have received, or will receive, it - is that correct? Wow!
4)let me get this straight - in your view, it's OK for a politician to say (how about DO, why draw the line at speech?) anything in order to get elected because, through some magical quality, we know that he will be wonderful when he gets there? Then why bother with campaigns? Let the candidates just stand up there and we can decide who is more radiant, around whose head the halo appears, because apparently it doesn't matter a fig what (s)he says or how (s)he has voted. You, apparently, are gifted with "the sight". I, alas, have to pay attention.
5)If you want to know why Nader doesn't run for the Senate, why don't you ask him? I'm not his mother, for Pete's sake. I'm very glad he ran for Pres.
6)look, I am not the one who is claiming that the candidate I chose is above reproach, I have my differences with him. But one thing I think I can be pretty sure of is that he says what he means and he means what he says, his positions are clear, principled, don't ebb and flow with the tide of political punditry and don't have to be interpreted or spun. I know what his positions are on the things that are important to me, and I would argue, to the majority of us, and I agree with them to a much greater degree than with those of Obama, as far as I can tell what those ARE, or were, or will be - Perhaps you can tell me what "pragmatism" will tell him to do tomorrow. It would be useful to know what I have to brace myself for.
You speak as if you "know" a great deal about the "real" Obama - how did you come by this "knowledge"?
Aquifer November 13th, 2008 3:47 pm:
1) Well he's "sat by", i.e. hasn't objected, to anything Israel has done so far. So it has to be "wholesale massacre" before he should at least object? How many must die and by what means before it qualifies as a "wholesale massacre" in your book? …
Obama has objected in the past but, in the presidential campaign, he refrained. Look, Olmert is finished and there will soon be a new, and likely more liberal, government in Israel, anxious for peace with the Palestinians, so this is a moot issue.
2)Watch the FOX video again, and again if you have to, to see what Nader really said, it's even in print on the screen. He said Obama had a CHOICE about what kind of uncle he wanted to be, Uncle Sam or Uncle Tom …
Yes, that's what Nader said, but who is whitey Ralph to make that judgment, and how does he think that sounds to an African-American? To many black people, it's like saying 'who is Obama going to be – True Patriot or House N****r?' It's racially insensitive, to say the least. Incidentally, what is Ralph doing on Fox News anyway?
3)so, even though, he, Obama, has NOT publicly opposed the death penalty, for "political" reasons, we know he opposes it because somebody said that those who know, whoever they are, said he does (are you one of them?), and he is going to prove it by pardoning or commuting the sentences of all those who have received, or will receive, it - …?
No, I never said that he will pardon everyone on death row; just that, compared to Bush, he will be much more careful and thoughtful in its use, and appoint judges less likely to favor the death penalty.
4)let me get this straight - in your view, it's OK for a politician to say (how about DO, why draw the line at speech?) anything in order to get elected because, through some magical quality, we know that he will be wonderful when he gets there? Then why bother with campaigns? Let the candidates just stand up there and we can decide who is more radiant, around whose head the halo appears, because apparently it doesn't matter a fig what (s)he says or how (s)he has voted. You, apparently, are gifted with "the sight". I, alas, have to pay attention.
Nope, I also never said it's okay for a politician to 'say anything' to get elected, but name me one politician in our history who hasn't lied for political reasons? Even Ralph lied when he sent me those emails in 2000 promising to build the Greens into a viable alternative to the two major parties. Sadly, lying to get elected is a part of our politics; as long as it's limited, I'm not concerned, although I wish it were otherwise. As a self-described cynic, I'm surprised that flusters you. BTW, it does matter how a politician votes; I'll bet you never checked Obama's website to see what bills he's proposed and what votes he's cast.
5)If you want to know why Nader doesn't run for the Senate, why don't you ask him? I'm not his mother, for Pete's sake. I'm very glad he ran for Pres.
As a supporter of Nader, perhaps YOU should ask him. It's easy for Ralph to stand on the sidelines and throw spitballs at Obama, but what would he do if confronted by complexities such as the 2005 Energy Bill that gave tax breaks to Big Oil but also included funding for green energy? What would Ralph do if he had to vote on an Iraq funding bill that wouldn't end the war since Bush had promised, should the bill fail, that he would hold the troops hostage there and not properly supply them? How would Ralph have voted in these cases? Congress is presented with dilemmas like this every session and sometimes you have to make the best of a bad bargain. It's easy, and gutless, for Ralph to remain 'ideologically pure' since his words are worthless and he's powerless to effect change. I'd like to see what he'd do if he had to vote on a bill without a simple solution.
6)look, I am not the one who is claiming that the candidate I chose is above reproach, I have my differences with him. But one thing I think I can be pretty sure of is that he says what he means and he means what he says, his positions are clear, principled, don't ebb and flow with the tide of political punditry and don't have to be interpreted or spun. I know what his positions are on the things that are important to me, and I would argue, to the majority of us, and I agree with them to a much greater degree than with those of Obama, as far as I can tell what those ARE, or were, or will be - Perhaps you can tell me what "pragmatism" will tell him to do tomorrow. It would be useful to know what I have to brace myself for.
See above. It's easy for Ralph to say whatever he wants, since he has no power; a Rep. Nader would have to 'walk the walk' and take the consequences. Actions speak louder than words; what actions has Ralph taken in the 12 years he's been running for president, except run for president?
You speak as if you "know" a great deal about the "real" Obama - how did you come by this "knowledge"?
As a matter of fact, I've known one of his close relatives for nearly 20 years, and I've talked to Obama on two occasions, once before he entered politics. Perhaps that's why I'm convinced he'll do a much better, and more progressive, job than some here think.
This post, combined with one below explains a lot ....
It seems to me that your love of Obama and intense dislike of Nader are quite personal. This isn't really about policy and positions for you, is it? There is something so vehement and insistent about your posts - it's not enough to make a point, you seem to want to beat your opponent to death - this is more than political ....
Aquifer November 15th, 2008 10:23 pm, once again you've missed the bull's-eye, if not the dart board entirely. I neither love Obama nor hate Nader -- I take them for who they are -- human beings with flaws. I'll defend Obama when I think he's being unfairly attacked, just as you try to defend Nader. (If I think Nader is being unfarly attacked, for that matter -- as in 'he lost Florida for Al Gore' -- I'll defend him as well.)
If you think it's somehow unfair to point out Nader's flaws and failures, so be it.
Later in this thread, I summed up my opinion of Ralph Nader at RSJ November 15th, 2008 6:57 am, and it's not a hateful one -- rather, I'm sorry for what he's become.
Aquifer November 15th, 2008 10:23 pm: "This isn't really about policy and positions for you, is it?"
You and Ardee should start a club -- both of you have sought to move the debate beyond Ralph Nader to attacking me personally. This says you really don't have a rational case for supporting Nader except your impression that he's just a 'really good guy,' and apparently can't take the heat in return.
Aquifer November 15th, 2008 10:23 pm: "There is something so vehement and insistent about your posts - it's not enough to make a point, you seem to want to beat your opponent to death - this is more than political ...."
Since you like to dabble in amateur armchair psychoanalysis of people you've never met, you might enjoy reading this:
"Projection is a defense mechanism that involves taking our own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people."
-- From "Projection and Intellectualization," About.com.
http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_5.htm
"In psychology, psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defense mechanism in which one attributes one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions to others." [...]
"The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself."
-- From Wikipedia, "Psychological Projection."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
I suggest both you and Ardee do some research on the subject. And buy a mirror.
.You really need to buy some Prozac. You are diminishing this forum with your massive ego and tiny debating skills.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee November 16th, 2008 9:19 am, whew -- certainly seems as if I hit a raw nerve. Perhaps you're beginning to question your deification of Ralph Nader. Losing your faith can be an uncomfortable experience -- I know, I've 'been there' where Ralph is concerned. Maybe you're starting to see things 'as they are' rather than the way you think they should be.
BTW, thanks for avoiding me by posting comments informing me that you are avoiding me, followed by cheap insults. A definite sign of maturity, Ardee.
To be serious for a moment, I don't think either you or Aquifer are 'bad people' and you are obviously intelligent and articulate; unfortunately, even intelligent people sometimes have blind spots in their thinking or fall prey to unexamined beliefs. Don't take anything I've written as personally hateful of you or Aquifer, or even Ralph Nader -- it wasn't intended that way.
.Oh but it was indeed. Also meant to gratify a bloated ego instead of sharing a viewpoint.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
.We , all of us, think our opinions writ large. We use opinion to create a reality and, when nuances are pointed out we simply ignore those that do not dovetail into our already firmly fixed concepts of how things are. Not to say that you are alone in this, it is a pretty darn common phenomenon.
The perfect illustration is the way you distorted, or were led to distort by inaccurate Fox reporting,, the "Uncle Tom" reference. When the real statement of Ralph Nader was shown to you you ran off on a tangent that reminded me of a chicken's final actions with its head chopped off. Thanks for the laugh. Nader's comment was certainly glib, but in no way deserved your following comments.
As to the comments regarding the plight of the Palestinian people, this travesty has been going on since 1948, when three quarters of a million people were summarily ejected from their homes and farms. Not speaking to one of the gravest injustices existent in the world today is not political expedience it is simply heartless. It also hints at how many other important issue will be treated as unmentionable by the incoming administration.
Why you insist that Nader do what you think will make him credible is covered in my first sentence. I do not speak for him, only support what he says ( and means despite your inferences to the contrary) and believe he thinks that remaining outside a system desperately in need of repair is the most effective way to keep his message out there.
This post is not meant to defame or diminish your words or your beliefs, but only to clarify the difference in positions and the need to give more credence to those with whom you disagree. I try to do this despite my rather New Yorkish penchant for harshness ( unintentional I assure you). Thus the implication in my tag line
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee November 14th, 2008 7:52 am:
.We , all of us, think our opinions writ large. We use opinion to create a reality and, when nuances are pointed out we simply ignore those that do not dovetail into our already firmly fixed concepts of how things are. Not to say that you are alone in this, it is a pretty darn common phenomenon.
Are you exempt from this, Ardee, or a prime example of it?
The perfect illustration is the way you distorted, or were led to distort by inaccurate Fox reporting,, the "Uncle Tom" reference. When the real statement of Ralph Nader was shown to you you ran off on a tangent that reminded me of a chicken's final actions with its head chopped off. Thanks for the laugh. Nader's comment was certainly glib, but in no way deserved your following comments.
I didn't distort anything. I provided a source and gave my reaction to Nader's 'glib' comment and, trust me, if you were black you wouldn't be laughing. The distortion is on your side as you try to find some way to excuse Nader's egregious behavior.
As to the comments regarding the plight of the Palestinian people, this travesty has been going on since 1948, when three quarters of a million people were summarily ejected from their homes and farms. Not speaking to one of the gravest injustices existent in the world today is not political expedience it is simply heartless. It also hints at how many other important issue will be treated as unmentionable by the incoming administration.
Thanks for the history lesson, but this situation is certainly not Obama's fault and it is a complex issue that really needs to be settled by the two antagonists, namely Israel and Palestine. You do realize that Saudi Arabia and other nations exploit the misery of the Palestinians to distract their populations from the miseries at home? In other words, they don't want a solution to the problem, just as the religious right actually wants to keep abortion legal -- it's a great fundraising and GOTV tool for them.
Why you insist that Nader do what you think will make him credible is covered in my first sentence. I do not speak for him, only support what he says ( and means despite your inferences to the contrary) and believe he thinks that remaining outside a system desperately in need of repair is the most effective way to keep his message out there.
If you support everything Nader says, how are you any different than an automaton -- a 'Naderbot,' so to speak -- incapable of thinking for yourself? Nader's 'remaining outside the system' and 'keeping his message out there' has been a failure that saddled us with Bush for eight years. Excuse me, did those tactics make life better for anyone? Perhaps Ralph should try another approach. The fact is, Ralph doesn't have the spine to run for an office he might win, and then have to make decisions which could cause 'progressive purists' such as yourself to desert him. It's easy to be a saint when you never risk hanging on the cross yourself. He is a political dilettante who doesn't want to get his hands dirty -- just sell his books. Pathetic. But thanks for twisting yourself into a pretzel to excuse your 'perfect' candidate, as you endlessly and tiresomely accuse those who support Obama of doing.
This post is not meant to defame or diminish your words or your beliefs, but only to clarify the difference in positions and the need to give more credence to those with whom you disagree. I try to do this despite my rather New Yorkish penchant for harshness ( unintentional I assure you). Thus the implication in my tag line
Funny, I didn't take it that way. I don't know what your definition of 'defame' and 'diminish' are, but your second paragraph fits mine as you ridiculed any interpretation besides your own of Nader's Fox News comments as laughable. I agree, though, there is a difference in positions here -- the difference between recognizing and dealing with reality and living in a delusional cocoon where there are politicians who never lie, Ralph Nader is not a human being who might occasionally operate in his own self interest, and there's a Big Rock Candy Mountain just over yonder.
.I find it rather sad that your anger prevents your obviously superior intellect from coming to the fore. It is virtually impossible to debate with you as you seem to put your ego before your positions, and that ego makes your positions suspect as well. I am certain that you do not see this fact but it is blatantly obvious in your previous response to my carefully crafted post, in which you used pretzel logic and double jointed egoism to find insult where none was found.
I will try and avoid responding to you in the future, and I sincerely hope you find a maturity not yet evident.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I see, ardee November 15th, 2008 1:50 pm, the problem is my ego and anger and not the fact that you are incapable of responding to any of my points about Ralph Nader.
You accuse me of 'ego' apparently merely for expressing my opinion, just as you are doing.
You accuse me of anger without providing even one example.
You accuse me of using 'pretzel logic' without once citing what you're talking about.
(And, BTW, what is God's name is 'double jointed egoism'?)
This tactic is known as 'saving face by trying to concede from a position of superiority' wherein you condescendingly target illusory personal characteristics of your opponent, in this case of someone you've never met, rather than dispute with fact or reason their arguments. (Watch some of the smarter neocons; they do it all the time.) As an Addison Whithecomb quote goes:
"When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate."
BTW, if you'd like a fuller explanation of my feelings regarding Ralph, scroll down to RSJ November 15th, 2008 6:57 am, later in this thread.
You need not pompously respond from your lofty altar of 'maturity' with one of your 'carefully crafted' posts -- it's embarrassing since they are so easily confused with a lack of knowledge of the subject.
.This is me avoiding you....Ive no time for your childish temper tantrums disguised as debating.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
.Excellent.
Anyone intersted in Nader's real positions on these issues can readily find them at votenader.org. Or use a search engine.
In fact, those who support the current policies and actions of the Israeli govt are, ipso facto, supporting the destruction of the Palestinian people.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Excellent.
Summary: Let's not scare the reactionaries and racists too much.
This seems like a confused and mealymouthed attempt to define the current situation. Progressives, regarding people "who cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them", have to meet them "halfway on cultural issues"? We can't appear threatening? Really?
It's the lesser of two evils argument again, now wrapped in cautiousness and a large dose of deference to Obama. Chernus doesn't seem to know whether we should expect Obama to end up center, slightly left of center, or better. I know what I want.
yohocoma November 11th, 2008 1:25 pm, I hope you get that big progressive pony for your next birthday but, if not, you might have to settle for a center-left kitten.
Not everything you want, but more than you have now.
Then again, you can just cry and eat your heart out for the next year and hope you get the pony then. It's your choice.
So if you do not want to try to form compromises with the "reactionaries and racists," then what do you have in mind? Do you believe in democracy? If not, then how do you implement the changes you wish? I would think that as a progressive, you would be against armed conflict, as a matter of principle if not practicality (the reactionaries are the ones with the guns and the will to use them).
Obama is an improvement over the alternatives not because he is necessarily committed to any progressive ideals or policies, but because he is open to progressive choices while the others one might compare him to were not. Bush and Cheney are class warriors for the upper class, Hillary is a corporatist who seems to think the only problem is that there are not enough elite female corporatists, and McCain is an unstable war hawk who would risk nuclear war to prove his manhood. Nader is of course infinitely preferable but is far away from achieving majority support. Obama appears to be mostly a typical politician who is open to going in any direction, including left, where he perceives his self-interest to lie. That is about the best we are going to get in this day and age in the USA.
I disagree. I think he is saying; instead of getting into shouting matches, try to appeal to their needs and fears. They are hurting, too. Show them how progressive solutions will help them. Its not going to work with all of them. Maybe not even with most of them. But just maybe enough of them ...
I'm still not getting where all of you folks are reading this as a paean to Obama. Chernus is pointing out that Obama has intentionally escaped definition. As such, he has not committed to being liberal, center or, for that matter, somewhat conservative. We need to push him to institute progressive policies.
insipidity,
Although I am one who has been harping on the fact that Obama is essentially a corporatist, and has shown us his willingness time and time again to advance the corporate agenda, I agree that since he is now president we need to "push him to institute progressive policies" as you say.
How are WE to do this, pray tell?
Millions of Americans voiced their opposition to the bailout, at a ratio of 100-1 against, and Obama still actively helped to push it through. Is he listening? He has already shown us that he will ignore us when we tell him, emphatically, what we want.
In what way do we as citizens force an administration to fight for us?
Good point about the bailout.
Barbara Lee sent me a long winded email response to my complaint. It kind of makes you exhale about a quarter of the way through, as your eyes slowly glaze over...
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