When are people going to smarten up and stop joining the military.
Nothing good can ever come of it. At best you are a hired killer for
US corporate interests. At worst damaged goods or dead. What are these
people? Nuts! It's really simple, the US government is the worlds biggest
organised crime syndicate. The wall street bankers are the capo's or the bosses,
the politicians are the consigliere's and the military are the wise guys, the soldiers. They are nameless, faceless and completely expendible. Look at the way
they are treated...I'm not making this up. What are they doing in Iraq?? Paving
the way for US business interests. Open your eyes...It's a con, a huge con and
every poor stupid sap in a uniform loses.... And please don't give me that crap about how they fight for my freedom, freedom to do what, have my mail read, sit in a fenced "free speech" zone or the freedom to have my money destroyed by the
banks... They exist to make our owners richer and that all they exist for...

Fred

Wrote this before about this subject and it has not gotten better.
Breakdown

Who fashioned this military where the rule of law, yea, even the rule of self-preservation is savaged and a lie?

Would trust be in play if there be disrespect among comrades-in-arms and a life be in the balance?

Can the blame be centered in the few when leaders lie and cheat for profit and send others to die?

Is war the answer as to why? It is to pat an answer and to blame an action is to remove blame from where it belongs. So many People ravaged with no chance.

Kill at a distance, plane, boat, truck, car, on foot and it looks so easy and play it right and you don’t give your life to chance but maybe come back home to PTSD and feel your heart and soul cry.

War for this country is of the people, for the people and under the Constitution, all of this has been scraped for greed what our leaders desire, Is this not mad? For this our people should have no tolerance

Tony 7/23/06

Carol

I am not surprised that this is happening at all. Both men and women are going to this war Iraqi war two and three times and maybe even four times. The human can't take so much of this violence so when they come home they take out on their loved ones. I was married to a man that went to Vietnam and he was a completely changed man when he came home. He was so violent and he drank so much more that I left him because I was scared for my life. He lived on board a carrier and he worked in the radio shack and the presure he went through was horrible. He would sleep like a stone because of the noice on board the ship and it would take me up to fourty five (45) minutes to wake him up and when I finally get him up I would have to jump out of the way so he wouldn't hit me. I tried and tried to get him help and he wouldn't go so I had to leave. I loved him so much but I was afraid for my life. Here I am thirty-three years later and I still love him because I will always feel like a failure that I couldn't continue with him only because I was afraid of him. A matter a fact thirty-three years later he called me to tell me how sorry he was for what he did to me and he wished he had listened to me but I told him thanks but no thanks it takes more than I am sorry but that hurt my heart to tell him that. I have been married now thirty three years to a gentle man but I will never love him as much as I did my ex because of the hurt I had with him and that is a real shame.

We are going to have a lot to be concerned about when our boys and girls come home from war. If you have been in the thick of things for a long time, you just don’t leave that stress behind. It takes time to decompress.

How do we “un-train” people that we have trained to kill? The problem is we don’t. We just bring them home and then the government forgets about them. The devil that Bush created to punish others, is the devil we will have to deal with.

I used to run a soup kitchen and there sure were a lot of ex-military folks in there with severte and persistant psychiatric illnesses. perhaps a read and signed stat sheet on the after- life of military service should be added to the recruiters required documents.

does anyone know of any studies that show the comparison of soldiers who saw combat, participated in murder, witnessed sch as contrasted to general population and soldiers wh were not in actual overt violence in terms of long term studies of their rate of domestic abuse, PTSD and other effects from intentionally shutting down the conscience?

it would be good to see some real data on this to walpaper the background of the anecdotal accounts.
is there any data on unemployment depression, crime rate changes after large troop returns?

"bongofury October 16th, 2008 2:36 pm

Train people to kill innocent women and children if there are no enemy troops around and this is what you get."

I HAD A similar thought, sort of anyway, and it's that if U.S. military males bloodily murder their military wives after returning from the USA's zones of its wars of criminal and psychopathic wars (of aggression), then the heart only pangs more for Iraqis, Afghans, and so on.

"What I don't understand is why anyone is surprised."

I'M NOT surprised and doubt, for now anyway, that many other people are. While I expect some will be, for there are always some people who're surprised about matters that really are not surprising, I doubt many are surprised about these within-U.S.-military murders in the U.S. Much more surprising would be that or why we haven't heard of this a lot more and for long enough already, f.e.

"By the way, you will not be able to "solve" this problem."

NEITHER YOU, nor myself, nor any other individuals, not even when organized in groups, can stop these crimes from happening; except, and only when fortunate, when someone clues in early enough to another person being in danger and acts to prevent that danger from being exercised. And that's not an approach to rely upon, except when we happen to be in such a position.

And such help has been provided for women removed from homes where spouses were violently abusive, placing such women in protective shelters; but they frequently left to return to their violent spouses. When they are eventually killed by their spouses due to constantly returning to them when the state (happened in Ca anyway) had no knowledge of this happening beforehand, then ... it's not surprising and I don't really feel bad for them. After all, they're clearly insane and refuse to accept the protection provided.

Anyway, I guess only the govt could stop at least most of these tragic crimes, but not a govt like the one we have. It can't be counted on for really such good purposes! Heck, just consider the extreme violence and criminality by and among national, state, ... police forces in the USA! The govt does basically nothing about this.

"Just wait until all those troops are back from Afganastan and Iraq if you want to see nasty stuff happening on our streets back here in the States."

THERE'S ALREADY been very, very nasty and tragic "stuff" that's occurred and not in private quarters in the U.S., acts committed by very PTSD'd troops returned from these hellish war zones the U.S. has again created. There've been some of these articles at CD over the past few years or so, and other websites provide.

Those articles describe crimes that for the PTSD'd (of extreme extent) are not really crimes, for these people are PTSD'd beyond recognition and being able to recognize, for themselves, that they've been rendered dangerous, explosive, constantly duressed and in panic, .... They or many of them have no ability to heal this themselves, and perhaps no one has the means to be able to provide such healing.

The real BLAME belongs on the truly GUILTY, the govt and high-ranking military commanders, though of course also all profiteering and war-promoting U.S. corporations, from "news" media pundits and their bosses, to the MIC, the financial industry, ... heck, also McDonald's, Burger King, and other cies we would easily not think of in terms of them being profiteers of extremely and totally criminal wars of the U.S. govt and its ruling "elites".

They "of course" don't care at all for the lives of these murdered U.S. military, and their surving families left with these memories of painful tragedies. The only way they'd care is in political terms, for they don't want to crush too many citizens, voters, for they know this would result in increasing tensions, say, in the U.S.

So they're surely not going to provide any real effort to try to stop future instances of such or very violent crimes in the U.S. military and committed on their bases. Their minds and soul-[less] selves are focused only on their self-interests.

"This id part of the legacy of war. get used to it Amerikkka!"

IT WOULD not be unwise to keep that in mind.

What the USA needs is what I said it needed as this war on Iraq was being launched, a civil war, but while it doesn't need to be a violently acted revolution. Peacefully conducted, or not, the country evidently is at a point (actually has been for well over a decade already) that the only way to clean out this govt of its many criminal occupiers and dictators or dicator-wannabes is with real civil revolution.

That also won't happen; the USA doesn't have anywhere near enough of such spirited, spined, principled ... populace, and the few exceptions can't help make the needed difference; and regardless of how much they (we, perhaps) could wish that reality would be the contrary. They (or we) could try, but clearly couldn't succeed; it'd take very many to unite in order to liberate both the USA and this planet of this extremely criminal, despotic, anti-democratic, ... govt, the U.S. govt.

Karl Marx sounds good for reference, imo.

Quoting from the article:

"Another survivor of military domestic violence joined the vigil. Christine Horne flew from Coconut Grove, Florida to commemorate the deaths of four military and to mourn her own mother's death. 34 years ago in 1974, when she was 9 years old and her brother was 5, their Special Forces father murdered their mother in their home just off Fort Bragg by stabbing her over 50 times. In a military court martial, her father received a life sentence for the murder, but was released after 12 years in prison."

ONLY 12 YEARS? Doesn't sound like a good idea to shorten his life sentence; prolonging it might be [better]. I suppose that this is double-injury, -tragedy, ... for that family who suffered the loss of a mother due to her husband having bludgeoned her 50 times.

What's a govt for, if not to make life hell all the more?!

The U.S. military and govt, the "executive", Congress and Senate, need to work and hard on this problem, but when will they? Never; perhaps, and like 'as usual'.

Quoting from the article:

"Another survivor of military domestic violence joined the vigil. Christine Horne flew from Coconut Grove, Florida to commemorate the deaths of four military and to mourn her own mother's death. 34 years ago in 1974, when she was 9 years old and her brother was 5, their Special Forces father murdered their mother in their home just off Fort Bragg by stabbing her over 50 times. In a military court martial, her father received a life sentence for the murder, but was released after 12 years in prison."

ONLY 12 YEARS? Doesn't sound like a good idea to shorten his life sentence; prolonging it might be [better]. I suppose that this is double-injury, -tragedy, ... for that family who suffered the loss of a mother due to her husband having bludgeoned her 50 times.

What's a govt for, if not to make life hell all the more?!

The U.S. military and govt, the "executive", Congress and Senate, need to work and hard on this problem, but when will they? Never; perhaps, and like 'as usual'.

Murder is a human condition. It has also been recognized in other mammalian species as well. The failure in these cases lies with the professionals charged with the responsibility of maintaining order and failing to recognize the threat to innocent life. Obviously someone was not effectively focused on the people under their command and control. A murderer is dependent on opportunity. The military can serve as a fine scapegoat if you lack sufficient information to know better. The response to these ultimate crimes looks like another example of a blameless, no-fault society that cannot bear its own responsibilities. Here we have clear crimes of murder and people seem to think there are special reasons why it happened.

Dafoe
But this nation worships violence, look at its movies and the profusion of police shows etc., look at its past heros, all of them are gunslingers of one form or another, guns abound as do handguns> What the hell do you expect this is a violent nation, and a poleese state to begin with, more uniforms, national. state and local all with some firearm or other carried or strapped to the hip. To push for the banning of handguns is to be called a commie, now that shows intelligence. In a land where it is every man/woman for themselves such violence is not surprising. Need to change the nations psyche.

Frederich Johnson 5:37:
Your last sentence touched upon something important in this discussion.At least part of the reason the Vietnam War ended was because Hippies of all stripes WERE getting most of the "hot babes".If there were a mainstream candidate for peace,it might take 10 years or better to become a peaceful nation-but it could be done.Just imagine a country where musician's egos were the most combative forces extant.
From this old man:let the grass burn in abundance and music festivals multiply across the land.Release the hundreds of thousands of prisoners guilty only of drug use,and gradually isolate all the war criminals profiting from the current madness.

Todays killing involves mostly NON-SOLDIERS. To be motivated to kill women, children, granny, and grandpa HAS to make some nasty monsters and some guilt ridden psychologically damaged soldiers.

Soldiers are taught to solve problems by killing.

Some tribes required ceremonies and time for soldiers to be returned to the general population. This was a better mental health program than our returning soldiers get. I suggest a mandatory mental health program for all soldiers sent into a war zone or any type of combat. The few with serious problems will probably be identified.

Kill, isn't that what soldiers do?

ThomasMarx October 16th, 2008 1:44 pm:
A “kinder, gentler warfare state”? Did you really mean to include the warfare part? Personally, I would like to see a NO WARFARE state.

But to the article: How about also remembering the large number of women, military, contractor, and citizens of Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other places the US wages war on. Between the constant use of violence in entertainment, and the holding up of said as role models, then the indoctrination of us and them menality and kill, baby, kill that going into the military entails, it is indeed surprising that there are not more bodies piling up. We enter our society violently and way too many people leave it the same way (even one would be too many). This country glorifies violence, especially towards people who may not be able to adequately stand up for themselves against such brutal use of force. Not saying that women are weaker, or that there aren't female perpetrators of irrational violence (any violence is irrational, IMHO), but women are all too frequently the main targets of such behavior. Given that, one must wonder about the viability of such a society in the long run, and by that I'm not counting the years before mass entertainment. Such disrespect for life and the welfare of our fellow human beings is downright frightening. Why the world has not gotten together to invade the US and dismantle it to keep the spread of this contagion contained, is beyond me.

Sioux Rose: you say it better than I do.

This article omits the powerful fact that there are women who actually want their men to be warmongers even when there is a soft side to these young men who want to say no. When women can say no to being sexually harassed, men should also have the same rights to say no to being forced into staying aggressive lest they face public persecution. I have come across some women who are more macho-egotistical than even men. In fact, there are men who are just as moderate and liberal as many women in this world and yet both parties abandon these fair minded men. It's bad enough that not only can women wear everything men can wear and play all their sports and their own but men are restricted in terms of fashion and sports unless they want to be persecuted.

Unfortunately the reason why we have so many problems in the world today is due to men trying to control and concur. We see this in the Middle East…

Hey, let’s perpetuate some stereotypes about the peaceful, loving, nurturing female and the violent, bestial male. Naturally I’m not buying it — plenty of women voted for Bush, and plenty of men didn’t vote for him. Probably the strongest and clearest anti-war voice in 2004 was Ralph Nader, and hardly anyone male or female voted for him. Go figure.

Contrary to many myths about man’s natural proclivity to fight wars, most … men do not make good soldiers. Most men have to be inspired to fight; if that fails, they have to be forced at gunpoint by their commanding officers. Numerous studies have shown that the average soldier is extremely timorous in battlefield situations and that he ‘regresses’ and reacts ‘passively’ under enemy fire. Obviously, as it often includes military obligation, the male role often requires certain kinds of discipline or indoctrination to put reluctant youths in the proper frame of mind.
Moreover, some women love these knuckledragging warmongers. I happen to live near an Army base. They’re the grunts and cannon-fodder — yes, there’s still a cavalry in the Army — the lowest of the expendable lower-class and working-class males. Since unlimited immigration has knocked the hell out of wages for unskilled labor, they don’t have a lot of good career choices. Quite a few haven’t made it back from Iraq. And you know what? Everyone of them has a wife. I see the stories on the local news as they trickle in. Yes, it may come as a shock but women actually want these Neanderthals, and what’s worse — they breed with them like mad! The same could be said for other thuggish and gang-leader types.

There are also quite well documented instances during WWII of women publicly shaming men who wouldn’t fight, goading them to own up to their male responsibilities to fight.

I’d also note that it was feminists who were raising a big stink before 9/11 about the Taliban in Afghanistan and what they did to women, effectively egging on the warrior types in this country to be “real men” and do something about it.

The more things don’t change the more they stay the same.

Maybe wars end when it’s the anti-war activists and conscientious objectors who attract the hot babe groupies. But I’m not holding my breath because I know that the average woman is just about as unevolved as the average man is. And when I go to the malls I can’t help but think we wouldn†?t be having all these resource wars if women would just stop buying so much STUFF.

Don't you all know that Democracy is messy? Now drag those dead bodies out of the way, freedom is on the march!

Sioux Rose

Tragic as these deaths may be, there IS pervasive violence directed at women in mainstream America, and much of the world. People who lack power and feel increasingly like rats in mazes turn their aggression on someone, and usually it's someone smaller who poses less of a physical threat. Domestic violence rates in America are high without even looking at these military cases. I can't recall the source but the data was that the # 1 women go to the emergency room is domestic abuse. So long as our society is marinaded in violence, from songs to movies to TV shows (even cartoons!), THAT will be the reflex the least self-mastered among us opt for. Lessen the exposure to violence, spread more of the benefits around (financial constraints figure heavily into stress and foment into domestic battles) and then those with short fuses will have less cause to go off. Otherwise all the causative factors are in place for much more of same.

Train people to kill innocent women and children if there are no enemy troops around and this is what you get. What I don't understand is why anyone is surprised. By the way, you will not be able to "solve" this problem. Just wait until all those troops are back from Afganastan and Iraq if you want to see nasty stuff happening on our streets back here in the States. This id part of the legacy of war. get used to it Amerikkka!

One of the most alarming facts is that military members returning from deployment have to seek Mental Health on their own. Rarely do we see individuals seeking help, and if they do there is a waiting list. Could there be a briefing form prior to return? Who knows, but action should be taken even if in vain.

I served over 20 years, and everyone gets the usual domestic/sexual harrassment training, suicide prevention etc. to no avail. But is it the machoism of the male psyche which prevents self help when needed? There are many soldiers, airmen, and sailors who deep down are in trouble, with no way out. Most of these young men are still immature in handling relationships, yet alone leading meaningful existence within themselves.

Yes, more needs to be done!

Coffeelover,,,,,,

I recently appeared in a small town court in a blue state to protest a traffic citation.

Three of the cases ahead of me on the docket involved young men accused of various infractions and misdemeanors. In one corner of the court room stood the local army recruiter, while in the opposite corner stood the jailer.

As each case proceeded the judge advised the defendents that they had two choices. In response to the judge's advice, two of the defendents signed up with the recruiter and one signed up with the jailer.

Now, tell me again why we should be supporting the troops ?

Some of us could never understand why having women in the military has been construed as a sign of social progress, anyway. (Why do women want to participate in nationalism and aggression, in any country?) The killing of military spouses, and/or "military women" is a damnable tragedy, but so is the killing of Iraqi mothers and children. Apparently, returning Iraq war veterans have been committing domestic violence against themselves also; according to news reports, the rate of suicides among male Iraq war veterans is abnormally high, and it is reported furthermore that the Dept. of Veteran's Affairs was trying to cover this up. The warfare state cannot seem to stop its abuses. We need a kinder and gentler warfare state.

God bless our brave troops!

It's only a few bad apples, dontcha know!