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Activists Protest Immigration Raids in Phoenix
PHOENIX - Thousands of people protesting a sweeping crackdown on illegal immigrants by an Arizona sheriff marched through Phoenix on Saturday, toting placards reading "We Are Human" and "Stop the Raids."
A woman holds a sign as she protests against Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Phoenix, Arizona, February 28, 2009. Arpaio has been facing criticism from Hispanic activists and lawmakers, alleging Arpaio's crackdown methods on illegal immigrants involve racial profiling. (Reuters/Joshua Lott/United States) Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has dispatched deputies into Hispanic communities in the Phoenix area where they stop people and arrest anyone who cannot prove he or she is a legal U.S. resident.
Under a deal allowing them to enforce federal immigration laws, the deputies have arrested more than 1,500 people whom they determined were in Arizona illegally.
Latino activists and lawmakers call his program a clear case of racial profiling because only people who look Hispanic are targeted. Arpaio steadfastly denies the charge.
Earlier this month, he stirred more controversy when he marched 220 illegal immigrants in shackles and striped prison garb through Phoenix under armed guard.
"Walking people through the streets in chains, public shaming, it's medieval," said Veronica Perez, 32, an archeologist carrying signs reading "No Human Is Illegal" and "Stop the Raids."
"Isn't cruel and unusual punishment against the U.S. Constitution?" she asked.
The event was organized by activists from the National Day Laborer Organizing Network and a group called El Puente Arizona. Estimates of the number of participants ranged from 1,000 to 3,000.
Preparing for the march at a park in central Phoenix, school district coordinator Sylvia Airington, 47, slammed Arpaio's policies.
"Racial profiling, targeting the Hispanic community -- it's an embarrassment to America," she said.
What to do about an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States is an explosive political issue. But it has largely dropped out of the debate as concerns turn to the economic crisis.
A bid to push comprehensive immigration reform through Congress was rejected by Republican lawmakers two years ago. President Barack Obama, who supported the measure, has yet to address the matter.
"I voted for Obama for change," said welder Oscar Camacho, 45. "But with respect to immigration, I see no change at all."
Around 100 counter-demonstrators waving American flags turned out to support Arpaio on Saturday. Some carried holstered pistols.
"He is the only one to uphold illegal immigration laws," said Dina Rose, 52, standing on sidewalk by the sheriff's office in downtown Phoenix. "The county sheriff is America's last hope of protecting our freedoms."
(Editing by Xavier Briand)
- Posted in
79 Comments so far
Show AllI happen to live in Phoenix. While the topic of this article is a sensitive subject, I think a significant portion of USA citizens are not understanding what is happening here.
For starters, citizens of Mexico have every right to work in both the USA and Canada; just like every citizen of the USA can work in both Canada and Mexico and every citizen of Canada can work in both Mexico and the USA. Controversy aside, NAFTA makes this all possible. Citizens of Canada and Mexico are the only countries on Earth that can work in the USA without paperwork. The other countries of the world? There actually may be a case for them not being allowed in the USA without the proper paperwork. However, the Mexicans and Canadians? Lay off of them Arpaio - as it is unlawful to mess with them in this regard.
Arizona is a state in which, unfortunately, its citizens have a tendency to vote Republican. Despite the fact that Sheriff Arpaio has cost the state of Arizona much money by focusing on people who supposedly LOOK like they are from Mexico, he was able to be re-elected in the 2008 election. There is a well-known case around here in which he sent a young man, who was a USA citizen, to Guatemala because he was unable to prove that he was a USA citizen because he lost his ID. The ONLY reason why Arpaio sent him to Guatemala one may ask? Turns out his parents were from there. Evidently, the young man (I forgot his name. I'm sorry.) has never been to Guatemala. I can only imagine how scared he must have felt. How is that for racial profiling?
Maybe I should have gone to this rally and spoke only in German - pretending I did not know English. That would be an interesting experiment to witness just how prevalent racial profiling is in Maricopa County.
"Citizens of Mexico have every right to work in both the USA and Canada . . . without paperwork."
"Right?" They certainly have no such legal right. If they did, they wouldn't have to be smuggled across the border, and they would not be subject to deportation.
Naturally
Thanks for pointing out the fallacy of this kind of reasoning. And this is not a Mexican issue as he says. Mostly Latino in the Southwest for sure, a majority of Mexican citizens of course, they are right across the border. Many more from various South American countries. But illegal aliens come from every country in the world, plenty of Eastern Europeans and Middle Easteners here illegally.
You don't know what you're talking about.
"For starters, citizens of Mexico have every right to work in both the USA and Canada; just like every citizen of the USA can work in both Canada and Mexico and every citizen of Canada can work in both Mexico and the USA. Controversy aside, NAFTA makes this all possible."
NAFTA doesn't permit any and all citizens of Mexico to work in the US. It allows temporary work permits. These must be approved by the government.
"Citizens of Canada and Mexico are the only countries on Earth that can work in the USA without paperwork."
They may enter the country but the are not permitted to work. This is the same procedure you'd find in the EU.
You should go back and actually read the articles in NAFTA.
By the way, Mexican law calls all illegal immigrants in Mexico felons.
The right of workers to free movement within the EU is recognized as a fundamental freedom under Community law.
Citizens of Canada, the US and Mexico need the appropriate visa to work outside their country of citizenship. While in Canada, Obama expressed the view that worker rights and environmental standards need to be integrated into the main NAFTA agreement, whatever that may mean with respect to the current issue with illegal aliens.
community law applies to EU citizens. I as an American citizen must have a work permit to apply for a job in the EU.
Arpaio is Limbaugh with a badge.
More like Bull Connor.
Badge? He don't need no stinkin' badge.
Need to go after those illegal Irish Arpaio!
tanguero
Good idea, but they are in the Northeast mostly, about 150,000 of them at last count.
It absolutely puzzles me what people that prefer illegal cheap labor have against American citizens. Is money that important to you? Are there that many of you that have business's that profit from this?
What do you have against working class poor, mostly minorities, mostly black and Mexican American. Don't you think these folks deserve these jobs rather than foreigners that come here as criminals? Don't you think they want a better life? Deserve it if they can achieve it?
Why do you favor subsidizing business? Paying for each illegal out of your pocket so business can pay them less?
We are speaking of 7-9 million jobs at minimum that you are handing to illegals, while denying those same jobs to the Americans that would have gotten them. Now consider that those same American workers have to be added to unemployment roll's and get various services and benefits......extrapolate this out, its not hard to do. The various impacts are staggering. Add the impact of 20+ million people to enviornment, water, etc, needs.
If you favor breaking the law, disolving the rule of law, insist on selective compliance of the law, did it ever cross your mind that someone else may do the same? In ways you don't like?
Our immigratioon system is broken is the cry. Well, where exactly is it broken? Exactly where? We allow more immigration per year than most of the world put together. We have legal work programs thast are available if we are short of labor, at last count 11 of them. We allowed an Amnesty in 1986 and fixed our system. Anyone that cries for this simply is asking for legalization of status. Put the lawbreakers ahead of the honest people.
It makes no sense in the light of day.
This has nothing to do with racism, compassion, xenophobia or any of the other false arguments put forth by business and their shills. Its about Americans that are put out of work by this shameful exploitastion, its about dollars and cents, its about the law we live under.
Perhaps Naturally and Thomas More has never heard of NAFTA. It may have changed since 9/11, but the conditions of NAFTA still stand. It is the USA who reneges on the conditions. So, maybe I was not so fallacious after all.
If I was a Canadian or Mexican citizen, I would contest the deportation out of the USA.
havenofearjason...
Of course I've heard of NAFTA. I oppose it personally. It only benefits business's in the main. It killed the Mexican corn farmer.
"It is the USA who reneges on the conditions"
I have no idea where you got the idea that Canadians or Mexicans could enter the country illegally under the terms of NAFTA. Perhaps you could quote the particular article authorizing it. I don't find it.
In anty case, I still stand by my original point. Why favor forein nationals in jobs rather than Americans?
I'll certainly be glad to include legal H1B workers here too. Its not just illegals that are taking jobs from American workers. Microsoft just laid off American workers while retaining H1B workers in the same jobs. Why? Because on average they work for $20,000 less a year. There are plenty of other examples of this.
A couple of years ago, New Orleans holtels brought in 2,000 maids, etc under H1B of all things. We have a shortage of maids? Not hardly. What we have is a shortage of Americans that can work for the slave wages paid to these poor people.
"If I was a Canadian or Mexican citizen, I would contest the deportation out of the USA."
Many do contest deportation, costing us more money. As a point of interest, its only those that favior illegal immigration that mention Deportation. No one that wants to put a stop to the employment of illegal aliens cares a whit about Deportation.
Consider the fact also, Thomas More, that if there are between 12 to 20 million illegals in the USA, this is a very small number in relation to the rest of the USA population of 300 million.
Many American citizens love to be paranoid!
I ask that you learn about the conditions of NAFTA (personally, I disagree with NAFTA for the most part; but, it is the law - even though the USA changes it at will, which illustrates its rogueness).
havenofearjason...
Paranoia, another favorite cry.
What we are talking about here is 7-9 million JOBS. The very thing that all this money is supposedly being spent to produce. The President is crowing they might be able to produce or save 2 Million jobs...two million.
"Consider the fact also, Thomas More, that if there are between 12 to 20 million illegals in the USA, this is a very small number in relation to the rest of the USA population of 300 million."
As a total of populatioon yes, but not as a portion of jobs. But you keep missing the point. Every job taken by an illegal alien is one more poor bklack kid, one more Latino-American, one more American that is out of a job.
Which returns us to the original question, why would anyone favor giving jobs to poor illegals instead of poor Americans other than to serve business interests.
I repeat, I'm famaliar with NAFTA, but I don't see any part that aurothizes Mexicans or Canadians to enter the country illegally. Could you point it out please or link it?
But it IS a Mexico and Canada issue in relation with the USA - the whole "illegal immigration" debate! Canadians and Mexicans CAN be in the USA and CAN take jobs that USA citizens would otherwise apply for if they are more qualified! Other nations? Yes, they must not be here without paperwork such as visas, greencards, work permits etc... However, there IS a exception regarding citizens of Canada and Mexico. That is all I am saying. I am done responding to those who disagree for the simple fact that said people are unaware of USA relations with Canada and Mexico in regards to work programs of their citizens.
"there IS a exception regarding citizens of Canada and Mexico. That is all I am saying...... (work programs of their citizens)."
I believe I mentioned the legal work programs, has nothing to do with illegal entry.
"I am done responding to those who disagree for the simple fact that said people are unaware of USA relations with Canada and Mexico in regards to work programs of their citizens."
Uh-Huh.
"Of course I have heard of NAFTA."
Then quiet regarding Mexicans and Canadians not being LEGALLY allowed to work in the USA!
Sorry, makes no sense.....
The intellectual level of those who favor wage slavery is . . . well, it's represented here.
Besides, what kind of a last name is "More" anyhow!
Weird I know...but it is like Sir Thomas More the Chancellor of England that I admire greatly, unfortunately, I'm not related in any way, darn it.
"illegal Immigrants" are just a convenient target for the Thomas Mores of the World who need a group of people to blame for the fiscal problems in the United States and her insane policies of "Corporatism".
The Good taxpayers of California as example will blame the mess that State is in on the "Illegals" rather then their own idiotic desire to have NO TAXES while insisting on all the Government services any first World country takes for granted.
This deflection of blame serves those in charge very well . The Corporations can continue to plunder and loot and the CEOS can pay themsleves 300 million dollar bonuses and the Politicians can continue to own so many homes they can not remember the number while the stupid people blame their own financial problems on some Immigrant from Mexico who will work a 12 hour day for a pittance.
Meanwhile these same people, ranting and raving about following the LAW of the land which all decent hard working Americans must do as a matter of course, have no problems with its own Government violating the treaty laws that they signed with the original natives of that country when their own ancestors entered the country illegaly.
One more time, given the fact that Mexicans are for the most part descended from the original inhabitants of those lands , I find the notion that the White race that drove them off and then imported Black Slaves from Africa by the millions could deem those mexicans as "illegal aliens".
GwNorth
Yours is a most predictable response from the GwNorth's of the world. A lot of hyperbole with no factual reply to the statements.
I had put in a lengthy response to your less than factual reply, but I removed it. It looks like you didn't even read what I said, juast decended into personal insults.
"The Corporations can continue to plunder and loot and the CEOS can pay themsleves 300 million dollar bonuses and the Politicians can continue to own so many homes they can not remember the number."
If you had read what I said, you would have noticed that was one of the thiongs I said.
Since you obviously don't know much about this problem I see no point in saying anything more.
>>We are all aware of who the anti Americans that post here are, and its quite needless to repeat your desires for the destruction of America, your hatred of our citizens. Its a given.
Hyperbole. No content.
>>Yours is a most predictable response from the GwNorth's of the world. A lot of hyperbole with no factual reply to the statements. A lot of hyperbole that simply states
As opposed to what factual reply on your part Mr More? Let us take the example of the State of Michigan . Is it your contention that Illegal Immigrants are behind that states large unemployment rate and the collapse of the Auto Industry.
Please provide the facts. The vast majority of illegal immigrants work and pay taxes. If they did not work they would not be in the United States.
The number of illegal Immigrants has decresed significantly in the United States over the past few years. Where are all the jobs they were taking up? Where are all the Americans willing to take those jobs?
>>We are all aware of who the anti Americans that post here are, and its quite needless to repeat your desires for the destruction of America, your hatred of our citizens. Its a given.
You are you Mr more. You are not WE. You speak only for yourself .
>>If youb had botherred to read what I said rather that panting to make your usual rant, you would have seen that was exactly part of what I was saying.
Oh I read what you said mr more. I merely pointed out you were part of the problem with your anti-immigrant spiels . Send them all home tomorrow and the finqannces of the various States will NOT imporve. They are not the issue.
>>I don't expect you to care about unemployed Americans and their families, but if you are going to make a response, please keep to the point and refrain from the personal insults and no content remarks. Thank You.
An opinion not supported by any facts. Again the population of Illegal immigrants has decreased. This suggests the number of jobs should be growing. I see no evidence of this.
>>One more time, given the fact that Mexicans are for the most part descended from the original inhabitants of those lands , I find the notion that the White race that drove them off and then imported Black Slaves from Africa by the millions could deem those mexicans as "illegal aliens".
>>And one more time, your racist remarks are growing old and Illegal Aliens are not just Mexicans, though I'm sure it suits your sceneario to say it.
All too typical. Truth is "anti-american" and now this. Please detail how the comment above is Racist Mr more. Where are the FACTS wrong? Where did I state all illegal immigrants were mexican?
Those are your words mr more.
>>I don't expect you to care about unemployed Americans and their families, but if you are going to make a response, please keep to the point and refrain from the personal insults and no content remarks. Thank You.
I am under no obligation to take instructions from you mr More. If you are going to continue to make uninfored posts I am going to continue to challenge them
Through the 1800s and 1900's MILLIONS of Europeans entered teh United States Illegaly These included Italians, the irish, Chinese and so on.
Please detail how this negatively impacted the united states of America and explain why it would have been betetr that they all be shipped back home?
GwNorth
Darn it I have to keep editing to post the person I'm replying to at the top of the reply....maybe you're right, I'm getting senile....
I removed that post because its silly to discuss this with someone that doesnt know anything about it. But I'll certainly answer your points since you addressed specific things.....
Lets start with the last first.
"I am under no obligation to take instructions from you mr More. If you are going to continue to make uninfored posts I am going to continue to challenge them"
Of course you are welcome to challange anything I say, but my posts on this are anything but uninformed. I don't see one fact I put forth disputed.
"Through the 1800s and 1900's MILLIONS of Europeans entered teh United States Illegaly These included Italians, the irish, Chinese and so on."
We didn't have immigration laws then. And we had few illegal immigrants even after we started passing immigration laws.
"Please detail how this negatively impacted the united states of America and explain why it would have been betetr that they all be shipped back home?"
I don't remember mentioning them at all. Nor would I ever say they had a negative impact. Fact is we needed the labor and the skills then. They mostly built the White House and our capitol city, our rail roads and worked in the factories. They are us.
"As opposed to what factual reply on your part Mr More? Let us take the example of the State of Michigan . Is it your contention that Illegal Immigrants are behind that states large unemployment rate and the collapse of the Auto Industry."
Tharts a silly analogy but I'll indulge you. Of course not, the Auto industries problems are self inflicted, poor product, short term thinking for short term oprofits and agreeing to Union contracts that any fool could see would lead them to exactly where they are today.
"Please provide the facts. The vast majority of illegal immigrants work and pay taxes. If they did not work they would not be in the United States."
Less than half the illegals work. We are talking about 7-9 million jobs. Their families that make up the rest do not work, but cost the same. This does not include US Citizen children of the illegals, thats a seperate cost altogether.
Most pay FICA taxes and sales taxes, this does not come close to their costs. The illegals that do this and not all do are a wash for the Federal costs of each one. What the shills and business fail to mention is that the major cost is at the state and local level. That cost in Texas for 2006 was close to a Billion dollars in simple figures without the costs of the people that they put out of work. Cost of each illegal works out to betyween $700 to $1250 per year per illegal in direct costs to the Texas taxpayer. (a recent study shows that just the reimbursed hospital costs in Texas are close to a Billion dollars now)
"If they did not work they would not be in the United States." And this is the main point of my postings now or in the future. Jobs should go to Americans, not illegals...we need to enforce our immigration laws and go after these bastards that exploit the illegals and steal the future from Americans.
>>We didn't have immigration laws then. And we had few illegal immigrants even after we started passing immigration laws.
Incorrect. You had immigration laws then. There were still millions of people who entered the country illegaly.
As example those who entered at Ellis Island and other such ports of entry were considered to have entered legally. Parallel to that there were millions that were snuggled in and landed up and down the coastlines of America. These came from Europe and China and even from Quebec. Smugglers made big money brininging in Italians , Poles and Chinese in defiance of US Immigration laws.
Is it your contention the emigration of Chinese people to the United States halted when the Chinese exclusionary laws were passed? These laws were passed in 1892 and while it curtailed immigration, Chinese STILL entered the country illegaly.
The exact same types of arguments were made in 1892 when those laws passed, that being that the Chinese were taking Jobs away from Americans.
Yet they continued to enter the country and the number of jobs still grew.
As to the rest of your assertions.
The urban institute did studies that contradict your own claims, namely that the Illegals pay more in taxes then they extract in services. I suggest before you cite figures you look at the source. Numbers can prove anything a group of people want them to prove on either side . There exists as many studies that disprove your claims as there are that support them. Given this fact it up to the individual person to use ascertain which side is more correct .
here is another FACT.
The number of LEGAL immigrants to the United States each year is some 1 million people.
This number is LARGER then the number of illegal immigrants.
How is it that illegal Immigrant takes away the Jobs of Americans but a legal Immigrant does not?
Are you to believe that somehow by being stamped LEGAL the Job that said person takes when s/he enters the United States is different then one an illegal might take, the former NOT taking a Job from an American and the latter doing so?
Can you please explain the logic of such an arguement?
The problem is not PEOPLE taking away jobs from people. It is Corporatism and the desire for ever more profits. The problem is one of wealth distribution and not of "not enough jobs to go around".
We have illegal immigrants in Canada. I do not think they take jobs away from Canadians. Indeed I think they end up creating jobs. They live here. They shop here. They pay rent and buy clothing and food. They go to restaurants and movies.
If you want an example how this can be a boon to an economy look no further then the Towns along the US Border with Canada. They were all but shut down when Canadians stopped visiting them and threw thousands of people out of work.
A raid by immigration officials on an Electrolux plant in the United States resulted in the owners shutting that plant down and shifting the work to mexico. This RAISED unemployment in that town and saw many of its stores and businesses go under. The Plant in the United States had several hundred "illegal immigrants" working there. The economy TANKED when they were removed. The mere prescene of the illegal workers created jobs.
Now if you want a REAL example of "stealing jobs" look no further then the Corporations.
I submit.
600,000 ILLEGAL Immigrants living and working in Canada take FAR less Jobs away from Canadians in every respect then does shutting down a factory or a call centre and outsourcing those same jobs to India or China.
I submit.
Without Illegal immigrants Canada would suffer a labor shortage. The labor SURPLUS being reflected in our unemployment numbers has less to do with Illegal Immigrants and far more to do with the System we call Capitalism artificially creating surplus labor by making us compete with workers In China and india.
I submit.
That Illegal Immigrants in Canada do not "depress wages" as study after study has shown within a few generations they are making HIGHER wages then many long time Canadians. Second generation females of illegal immigrations as example make more money then females that have roots here for hundreds of years. While males take longer to achieve parity it remains a fact that second and third generation offspring of Illegal workers do better and all of canada prospers as a result.
I submit
If the United States wants to see decent paying Jobs then the fact they are not there is more to do with LABOR laws and minimum wage laws and the enforcement thereof then it has to do with the fact that Illegal workers lower wages.
I would point out that 85 percent of all migrants both legal and otherwise to Canada become CITIZENS, this in contrast to a number of 45 percent inside the United States.
I submit that the demagoguery that goes on here and which too many people buy in to is no different then that used by tyrants the world over .
It leads to Fascism which no one should want or welcome.
I have no interest in talking about any immigration except what I first posted . Typically the attempt is to bury any dissusion in straw man arguments. I should never have taken the bait.
I could care less what Canadians do on immigration. Thats your business.
I certainly agree that taking jobs overseas has taken more jobs from Americans than illegal immigrants. Whats the point?
"A raid by immigration officials on an Electrolux plant in the United States resulted in the owners shutting that plant down and shifting the work to mexico"
No deal. That plant was already moving. Aside from that, illegals took those jobs frm Americans in the first place.
You see unable to grasp the fact that if an illegal alien holds a job here he is taking it from an American.
And no matter how many studies are done by the open borders crowd, the States figures are pretty clear. Perhaps I should confine my comments to Texas, since those are the figures I know for sure. I'd be quite surprised if other states were different.
Simply go to the Texas State Comptrollers office and check for yourself since you refuse to believe me. The hospital study was done here too.
"I would point out that 85 percent of all migrants both legal and otherwise to Canada become CITIZENS, this in contrast to a number of 45 percent inside the United States."
I didn't know we were running a race. I'd be surprised if you came anywhere near the number of new citizens in our country each year, but I don't know how many Canada gives citizenship to each year.
"Without Illegal immigrants Canada would suffer a labor shortage."
May very well be, but we have no labor shortage here in the US.
I'm speaking only of my country and its problems.
"Are you to believe that somehow by being stamped LEGAL the Job that said person takes when s/he enters the United States is different then one an illegal might take, the former NOT taking a Job from an American and the latter doing so?
Can you please explain the logic of such an arguement?"
Simply if they are here legally they have bneen invited here to work. If they are a new citizen, they are a part of the Americans I am speaking of.
If you can't see the difference between somneone stealing and someone obtaing something honestly, I cannot explain it to you.
This is not that complicated a subject, its really quite simple. The people on my side believe that the jobs in our country should go to poor and disadvataged Americans, the people on your side prefer to import poor and uneducated labor to provide cheap labor.
I wish you would explain your logic of complaing about Corporations while supporting their policy? It beats me.
I submit to you there is no demagoguery except by business and its shills to promote their policy of cheap labor.
And while I'd agree about the minimum wage law since its a joke, I'd suggest to you that there is little difference between an illegal and a scab when business wants to lower wages.
As is usual mr More you lack the ability to comprehend.
Illegal Immigrants do not "steal" jobs.
Lets see now, if someone eneters the country illegally, is a criminal in that country and has no right to work there, let alone reside there, but lets say he buys a fake SS# or steals someones identity and uses theuir SS# and they get a job..........looks like stealing to me. And it doesn't take a lot to comprehend that.
>>Lets see now, if someone eneters the country illegally, is a criminal in that country and has no right to work there, let alone reside there, but lets say he buys a fake SS# or steals someones identity and uses theuir SS# and they get a job..........looks like stealing to me. And it doesn't take a lot to comprehend that
yeah of a sudden it the greatest importance that someone be law abiding. This after them that got , got theirs by breaking the law.
Mr More. Until the Government of the United States sees fit to honor the treaties it made with its First Citizens, and return all the lands stolen from them and all the billions owed to them in defiance of treaties, its Citizens should not be talking about the importance of following the law.
Now you can argue Canada has not honored all its treaties with its natives either, and I quite agree.
But I do not take the same position against Illegal Immigrants as you do.
the Aboriginals Of canada in fact welcomed the settlers and colonisits and adopted them into their circle. I really do not see why we can not do the same.
And no, this is NOT an entirely seperate issue. They are LINKED because both of our countries have a history of "Illegal Immigration" and demanding the RULE OF LAW on newcomers when we oursleves benefited by "illegal Immigration" is a hyprocrisy I am not willing to accept.
It does not tak a lot to comprehend who the real thieves are mr More, and it is not peoples making Minimum wage and less.
See your 3 trillion dollar bank bailout.
See your 1 trillion dollar a year Military.
FOLLOW the money if you want to see who is looting the United States of America.
Well, all I can say is that in my state, our economy was basically predicated on tourism and growth. The more bodies the better. Everyone who came created jobs and wealth all along the way. Didn't really matter if they came from frickin' Ohio or Oaxaca. A new body, a new job, a new person to rent to, sell shit to, collect taxes from (especially local SALES TAXES). Heck, even their kids added bodies to our schools, giving our local schools more access to resources, creating jobs for teachers, etc. Again, doesn't really matter if they are from bumfuck Virginia or Veracruz. And when the Sheriff started getting even wonkier than usual, a lot of them left (not necessarily the US, but Arizona). And they took their hard work, their kids, their wages, their jobs with them. Everyone in Phoenix was freaking out -- from the farmers who had no one to harvest to the construction companies to the hotels and restaurants.There was not this new influx of bonafide Americans to fill them. We basically have always had more jobs than people in this state (until the depression which had nothing to do with immigrants - I mean really, everyone knows that).
The really ironic thing in all of this is that the US spends all these billions of tax dollars subsidizing American agri-business to basically put farmers everywhere else out of business. This then creates waves of migration to the cities, and then when there are no jobs left in the cities, they jump the border to the US. This in turn spurs a huge business and more tax dollars invested in border control, military spending, prisons, (in)justice systems, etc. to "capture" all these campasinos who are basically coming to the US so they can send money back home in order to buy seeds and grow their own food and live in their own homes. WTF??? You are right, the American people are getting screwed in all of this. And so are the Mexicans and Guatemalans, and on and on. But there are some that are profiting enormously, while pinning the blame (and getting away with it) on those who are probably the greatest victims of this vicious cycle and who had the least say in it all.
Well, all I can say is that in my state, our economy was basically predicated on tourism and growth. The more bodies the better. Everyone who came created jobs and wealth all along the way. Didn't really matter if they came from frickin' Ohio or Oaxaca. A new body, a new job, a new person to rent to, sell shit to, collect taxes from (especially local SALES TAXES). Heck, even their kids added bodies to our schools, giving our local schools more access to resources, creating jobs for teachers, etc. Again, doesn't really matter if they are from bumfuck Virginia or Veracruz. And when the Sheriff started getting even wonkier than usual, a lot of them left (not necessarily the US, but Arizona). And they took their hard work, their kids, their wages, their jobs with them. Everyone in Phoenix was freaking out -- from the farmers who had no one to harvest to the construction companies to the hotels and restaurants.There was not this new influx of bonafide Americans to fill them. We basically have always had more jobs than people in this state (until the depression which had nothing to do with immigrants - I mean really, everyone knows that).
The really ironic thing in all of this is that the US spends all these billions of tax dollars subsidizing American agri-business to basically put farmers everywhere else out of business. This then creates waves of migration to the cities, and then when there are no jobs left in the cities, they jump the border to the US. This in turn spurs a huge business and more tax dollars invested in border control, military spending, prisons, (in)justice systems, etc. to "capture" all these campasinos who are basically coming to the US so they can send money back home in order to buy seeds and grow their own food and live in their own homes. WTF??? You are right, the American people are getting screwed in all of this. And so are the Mexicans and Guatemalans, and on and on. But there are some that are profiting enormously, while pinning the blame (and getting away with it) on those who are probably the greatest victims of this vicious cycle and who had the least say in it all.
False facts. Twisted logic. GwNorth reminds me of the stuff the Tobacco Institute used to put out. Back in the 90's their PR actually caused some people to believe that cigarette smoking was good for the country because it caused many people to die early, thereby costing the healthcare system less. Ridiculous, but some people actually argued that stupid position.
I wonder who is paying GwNorth to spread this junk?
GwNorth
Sorry it took two postings, you covered a lot of ground.
"You are you Mr more. You are not WE. You speak only for yourself "
Valid point, let me say I am aware of them then
"Oh I read what you said mr more. I merely pointed out you were part of the problem with your anti-immigrant spiels . Send them all home tomorrow and the finqannces of the various States will NOT imporve. They are not the issue."
Where did you find that. Those are your words, not mine. I don't recall ever making an anti-immigrant statement, ever. Aside from that I favor continued immigration. Your charge is false.
I never said anything remotely resembling "send them home." I have mo interest in sending them home. My interest is in Americans holding jobs in America and more soecifically Texas jobs for Texans and American citizens. I have zero interest in deportation.
Obviously if illegals were not employed, Americans would be. And of course our states would benefit immediately from their absence. Wages would go up, for example...meatcutters drew a wage of about 21 dollars an hour, they have been mostluy replaced by illegas and some legal immigrant, it is about 9 dollars an hour now for a dangerous and dirty job. And what do you think happens to these folks when they are injured, lose fingersc and hands? You won't like the answer.
"The number of illegal Immigrants has decresed significantly in the United States over the past few years. Where are all the jobs they were taking up? Where are all the Americans willing to take those jobs?"
I don't know where your information comes from, but though the illegal immigration has slowed because our economy is slowing, there hasn't yet been a marked decrease in the illegal population.
"All too typical. Truth is "anti-american" and now this. Please detail how the comment above is Racist Mr more. Where are the FACTS wrong? Where did I state all illegal immigrants were mexican?"
Its not the truth. And are you saying you are not anti-American? Lets discuss all your posts about giving Canada back to the Indians you stole it from or Canada under the Compact, worse that any McCarthy types we ever had. And I view your insistance in casting this problem in racial terms racist. That is exactly what the shills and their masters depend on
"Where did I state all illegal immigrants were mexican?"
"One more time, given the fact that MEXICANS are for the most part descended from the original inhabitants of those lands , I find the notion that the White race that drove them off and then imported Black Slaves from Africa by the millions could deem those MEXICANS as "illegal aliens".
I'd say right about here. I have never said illegal aliens are Mexicans. Never. Though about half are in the Southwest and as I said, not exactly surprising. You seem unable to absorb my point. Illegal aliens are taking jobs from poor Americans and depressing wages And providing a staggering extra cost to American taxpayers that benefits only big business.
We only got about a little less than two million black slaves here in the US when we indulged in that disgraceful vice. Your European friends got far more to work their plantations.
Off point, but just once I wish you guys that are so concerned with the slavery thats been gone from my country for at least 130 years or more would step up and say something about the current slavery in the world. I'd say thats more relevant to anyone concerned about slavery.
>>Valid point, let me say I am aware of them then
By the way. Just a word of advice. This makes you look very petty and small.
You give the impression you have a "list" of "anti_american" posters. It sort of gives you a Mcarthyiste type Aura.
Now if YOU think that makes you pro-american , then I have little more to say on the matter.
My friend...petty and small is the continual assertion of America as the mother of all evils in the world.
I have no list, the posters that continually assert this type of stuff are well known, its not like its a secret. You flatter yourself.
UNDOCUMENTED immigrants pay taxes
www.ime.gob.mx/investigaciones/aportaciones/arizona.pdf
i dont see any aliens around here...
immigrants have...
Some illegal aliens do indeed pay FICA taxes. That less than half what they cost the taxpayer. Their real cost is at the state and local level.
I could use "undocumented immigrant" and in fact as a matter of respect do use "undocumented" when talking to illegals. I seldom use it when talking about the problem because its been forced by business and their sghills because it has a better connotation. But Illegal Alien is the correct and legal term.
Not anymore. My husband's "green card" no longer refers to him as an alien -- he is now referred to as a resident. Illegal Alien is a term of humiliation used to degrade others. Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. You choose your own words. The power to make these f**ked up laws rests in the hands of a very few individuals with very strong ties to interests that have nothing to do with the common good or democracy. The empirical evidence is that the economic impact of so-called "illegal immigration" is basically a wash. And what makes your "tax dollars" so special? Have you considered that it is your very tax dollars that are causing the misery, violence and economic injustice that these people are trying to escape? Did you ever consider that this whole situation might just be all your fault?
But how can you watch people being treated like animals and be okay with that? (or worse -- sheriff Joe actually puts animals in the air conditioned jail cells and puts the human beings in the tents when it is 115 degrees outside). Do you have to drive by young women with brown skin dressed in black and white striped suits, chained together, picking up trash on some private piece of property under the blazing hot sun being watched by armed guards in cowboy hats? I do. Come to Sheriff Joe's tent city. Or go to the border. Go to a migrant shelter in Nogales (the one with the kids is especially fun). Talk to the ladies who get up in the middle of the night to bring food to the hundreds who are dropped off in their city, a thousand miles away from anyplace they have ever called home without any food or shelter, having just lived through their worst nightmare. Look them in the eyes. Hear their stories. Tend to their blisters, their dehydration. Feel their desperation and your powerlessness to help. And cry the tears of shame brought by the random privilege of being born in this place. But don't close your eyes or look the other way. Or self-righteously write them off as "illegal aliens". And don't judge them without really knowing.
A small percentage of illegal migrant low-wage replacement workers pay income taxes. It U.S citizens worked those jobs roughly 100% would pay income taxes (through withholding).
Illegals cost the country far more (in food and shelter, medical services, law enforcement costs, public school costs, etc.) than they contribute in taxes.
It's quite a scam for illegal EMPLOYERS. Their slave-wage labor costs are being subsidized by U.S. taxpayers . . . the same taxpayers who have lost good jobs and are now making (far) lower wages, and the same taxpayers who are now losing their homes at a record rate, because of the hiring practices of these illegal employers.
Beyond the lost jobs, lower wages, and transfer of wealth from the U.S. treasury to illegal employers, consider the impact of the $60 billion a year remitted to the home countries of illegal aliens.
The economic "multiplier effect" (each dollar of wages paid has the impact of at least three and as many as seven dollars, because those dollars are spent and re-spent in the local community) means that $60 billion has a negative impact of $180-$420 billion per year on the U.S. economy. By contrast, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan cost about$200 billion per year.
So - bottom line, the American economy is the only thing that matters? Mexicans - they don't count? Or anyone not American? I mean, if it might hurt our economy, they just shouldn't be able to live? American corporations have the right to every space, resource, and privilege on the planet -- even the right to take it by force, but everyone else is SOL?
Yeah, but it's also a two-way street. You forgot to count all the stuff we steal from them (oil, natural resources, etc. that we in turn get to sell back to them in the form of manufactured goods at a really high price and keep all the profits). Heck, we can even rent factories in Mexico and not pay any Mexican taxes, import raw materials with no tariffs from China, use Mexico's cheap labor, and import it back into the US without any tarifs, and sell the stuff at Walmart. And Walmart can go set up a Sam's Club in Mazatlan and undercut every local business in the area and have no obligation to support that community at all.
to naturally marches comment.
you obviously did not read the link i posted.
and i was not limiting taxes to income tax.
...........
illegal alien is a used term, but is not an educated term.
nor should it be used by the government or those who fully wish to solve the immigration issue in a comprehensive manner.
Humans are undocumented, not illegal.
If "humans" come here with legal (entry) documents, they are NOT considered illegal.
If "humans" come here without legal (entry) documents, they ARE considered illegal.
Keep in mind that when a U.S. citizen breaks a U.S. law, that person is considered a criminal and is subjected to a criminal court with a potentially long jail sentence. Illegals simply get detained until they can be sent home.
Would you consider the term "criminals" an uneducated term or are they simply "humans" who now have a documented record of breaking the law?
What is it you don't understand about rules and laws?
Whose rules? Whose laws? And for what end?
Simply detained -- that's a good one. Simply raped, beaten, neglected, marginalized, isolated, humiliated, terrorized, dehumanized. And think seriously about the things we criminalize. Like poverty. Like being born somewhere outside of the United States. It is illegal to be homeless. It is illegal to sleep in your car. It is illegal to sleep in the library. It is illegal to drive a car (or park one) with expired tags. It is illegal to take food out of a dumpster. You can get big tickets for all of these things. Then, if you don't pay the ticket (heck, you don't even have money to eat!), you can go to jail. Or get community service. But if you spend all day doing community service, then how are you going to get stuff to eat? So if you don't complete all of your 400 hours of community service (basically slavery) then you definitely get incarcerated. Now that you've been incarcerated, you can't get a job. So you??? What --- come on, help me out here, what do you do again? Oh, right. That's not our problem. That's what we have jails for. So we can flush away the obligatory have-nots in our capitalist society like so much shit in a toilet. Whoosh. All gone.
You all do know that our system, by design, must have a certain percentage of the population completely left out of the game. If you are going to have people with lots and lots more than the rest, you are going to have many more with nothing. And where you are born pretty much determines, more than any other factor, where you will end up in life. Exceptions - definitely, but the rule still stands.
"Humans are undocumented, not illegal."
Actions are illegal, not people. Your rhetoric is lame.
You could use the same lame rhetoric to excuse any crime from purse snatching to murder. But, in truth, those activities are illegal, not "undocumented." Your false reasoning implies that crimes are only some sort of paper-work mix up.
When employers recruit and smuggle non-citizens into the country to replace their U.S. citizen employees, that's illegal . . . not "undocumented."
"Undocumented" is a concept promoted by slavers to justify slavery.
I think it should be a crime to deny people their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (heck, I will settle for survival). I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere...
A crime involves an act that is universally criminal and for which there is a victim. Making a bed in a hotel is a victimless crime, and is far from a universally criminal act. It is only a crime if you are a particular kind of person making that bed.
The US government enters into the affairs of almost every single other country of the world in a totally illegal manner, and most of you who cite 'law' don't give one jota about that. But let it come to usually quite desperate folk trying to earn a living entering here from those countries, and you all become Judge, Jury, and Law Book all at one time!
'Throw the book at them!, you scream. And often supposed liberals are some of the worst of this lot. You guys need to walk some in other people's shoes before you start casting stones at them. I don't think you could.