Two-Thirds of Israelis Oppose Attack on Iran: Poll
JERUSALEM - Two-thirds of Israelis oppose their country launching on its own a military attack against nuclear installations in arch-foe Iran, said a poll published on Thursday.
When asked “should Israel alone attack the Iranian nuclear installations,” 67.2 percent said no, while 20.9 percent said yes and 11.9 percent had no opinion, said the survey aired on public radio.
The poll questioned people after the publication of a bombshell intelligence report in the United States earlier in the week, which said Tehran had frozen its atomic weapons programme in 2003.
Israel has vowed to keep up its diplomatic offensive against Iran’s contested nuclear programme despite the report, saying it believes Tehran has probably restarted an atomic weapons programme.
Widely thought to be the Middle East’s sole if undeclared nuclear power, Israel considers Iran its top enemy following repeated statements by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for the Jewish state to be wiped off the map.
Thursday’s poll was carried out by Shivuk Panorama marketing group, questioning 562 people, and had a 4.5-percentage point margin of error.
Copyright © 2007 Agence France Presse
This suggests that Israeli citizens may be a lot like American citizens with respect to polls. We give mass answers to questions when asked, and then listen to our elected officials insist on other answers from their supposed advantage point of having access to more and better “intelligence.” Unfortunately, the intelligence tends to change a lot, depending on the moon phases or something else secretive.
Actually, Israelis are like Americans in that their opinions aren’t considered by their alleged government “representatives.” Instead, public opinion is disregarded with contempt, U.S.A style, in deference to the wealthy elite.
I wonder what the response would have been if the question had been “Do you favor the US attacking Iran on behalf of Israel?”
Or how about the answer to “Do you favor attacking Iran if the USA promises to protect us?”
This poll shows that Israelis are not suicidal.
“should Israel ALONE attack the Iranian nuclear installations,…”
But are they homicidal?
Well didnt most Israelis support the destruction in Lebanon because two soldiers were captured?
I think maybe they got a bit scared after that and worry they wont be able to take on Iran.
Which is a good thing.
5th strongest army in the world–yeah right.
20.9% favor attacking Iran. That’s a ridiculously high number, and 11.9% don’t have an opinion? Combined that looks awfully close to the 30% or so of American who think George W. Bush is doing a good job. Could it be that 30% of the human race is inherently incapable of thought?
Interesting headline. Shouldn’t it read:
One in Five Israelis Favor Bombing Iran, Even Though They Have No Nuclear Weapons Program.
It’s like the media interpretation of polls here in the U.S. The emphasis is 180 degrees off. If Bush’s popularity is only 30%, what is more important than 70 % saying they oppose is that 1 in 3 Americans actually support what is happening.
Who are these people, in whatever country? My guess is that they believe God is on their side.
“following repeated statements by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for the Jewish state to be wiped off the map.”
Nobody even bothers to address this load of BS on CD anymore. Just in case a non-regular CD reader doesn’t know already….
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20070120&articleId=4527
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
Just becase a vast majority of people don’t want war doesn’t seem to be making much of impression on our leaders.
They consider it their job [fomenting wars] for the benefit of the multinational elite that
seem to be calling the shots.
Even with their near total control of the media. Thier machine is breaking down and people are looking elsewhere for the truth.
If they were going to say the truth this would be it. We are going to use your money [the citzens] and your childrens to do our bidding. Then at the end of it we will reap all the rewards and cast you into the ditch. With a lifetime of debt and reduced living standards just to rub sand in the wound.
Now go out and vote in the next rigged election.
This is encouraging and leads one to believe that Israel is stuck with their neocon leaders as much as Americans are. The lunatic fringe which controls the American government is pushing for Israel’s destruction because of their nutty religious beliefs even as they claim they will do anything to defend Israel.
A couple weeks ago an article by Stephen Zunes, a frequent contributor, was published on this Common Dreams web site pointing out that there is no idiom in the Farsi language to “wipe something off the map” the way we use the phrase figuratively in English. Had Ahmadinejad said some such thing it could only have meant literally erasing something from an actual map of some kind.
What he had said, according to Zunes, was that the current Israeli administration should be removed from power, something very different from the so widely quoted erroneous translation about the map.
Sunday on CNN Wolf Blitzer was quoting Ahmadinejad, with another text translated to English on the screen, qquoting Ahmadinejad as saying he was opposed to the Zionists and the Zionist Movement. And Blitzer carried on asking his guests what they thought about that. It was never clear to me whether what was being discussed was the early Israeli settlers’ Zionist aim to occupy all of Palestine, still the party platform of the Likoud if I’m not mistaken, or whether it was the existence of the state of Israel within the 1967 borders that was the point. It was a sloppy job of TV journalism!!!!
While the US is cleaning up its intelligence gathering, it’s high time we took another look at how statements by leaders we are not supposed to like are being translated, especially when the “wipe Israel off the map” phrase has been quoted over and over and over in the highest places as a major reason to bomb Iran.
Who are these translators? Who oversees their work? And who PAYS them????
Anybody who has ever worked on translations knows full well there is no such thing as an exact translation. Equivalent meanings are often conveyed in markedly different words and phrases from one language to the next. Plenty of room for spin if
Of course they do…and far-more than 2/3’s of their Zionist-leadership, as well [You think all that ‘investment’ came-cheap? And for to waste!]…
Israel all but runs (and, for large-part, Founded) the current and so-called Islamic-Revolutionary-Republic, in conjunction with us [as a somewhat ‘junior-partner’ but useful investor/enforcer].
S.Lebanon/Syria are the ones “in harm’s way”, now that Afghanistan/Iraq are ‘done-deals’. The only debatable-question being ‘before or after switching good-cop/bad-cop’ [My bet being on just-before…any takers?]
They could also be covering their asses as Israel and AIPAC have been seen as pushing for war with Iran.
“Who are these translators? Who oversees their work? And who PAYS them????”
Before getting all-excited about exposing what you think-of as a ‘ruse’, be aware that the initial-mistranslation of that famously-abused speech (quote, actually) was botched by an Iranian/QUD-source [hopefully, providing some ‘food for thought’?]…
“They could also be covering their asses…”
The entire-world is insufficient for Israel (or the US) to play “CYA” with … but, Iran is the very-last country on earth that Israel (or its/our AIPAC) would want to see ‘attacked’. [They’d sooner attack the US or Britain…in-fact, they have–on more than one-occasion]
MEMRI did the translation and its run by an Israeli Colonel Yigal Camon. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html
And I bet you this is more true of young Jewish people and Intelligentsia in North America and Europe than gets through the MSM which presents to us a monolithic Jewish world just as it does of the Islamic, Chinese, Catholic and other large social groupings.
So I say, let us all have a people’s “pow wow” and get rid of all our fanatical, war mongering, quarrelling leaders and live in peace to take care of Mother Earth before she rejects the lot of us through Global Warming within the next 20 or so years.
PLEASE!!
Peace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Blitzer
Wolf Blitzer Ragdoll is a fomer AIPAC employee hence why it was a shoddy peice of work.
“MEMRI did the translation and its run by an Israeli Colonel Yigal Camon.”
Don’t spread disinformation…
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20070120&articleId=4527
THE ORIGIN:
One may wonder: where did this false interpretation originate? Who is responsible for the translation that has sparked such worldwide controversy? The answer is surprising.
The inflammatory “wiped off the map” quote was first disseminated not by Iran’s enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran’s official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran’s Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.
It just MAY be, that a goodly number of Israelis realize, that if they, or we, should be so stupid as to bomb Iran, that Israel would be soon be engaged in a holy war they would lose. ___ Lose big time.
Israel and the US have ‘invested large’ in manipulating for the Iran they have today — and have done-so since the Shaw started to ‘weaken towards his people’s-interest’ and then subsequently ‘fell ill’ [with cancer of the CIA — leaving an heir deemed ‘inadequate to task’].
Without a ‘credible Enemy’ to point-to regards it’s ‘woes’ from Lebanon/Syria/Hamas/Hezbollah/etc., Israel would have a hard-time ‘justifying’ its Zionist/ersatz-intents/Interests to its own liberal-population — would it not? So, too, the US and its future Caspian-adventures (now that the pathway of Afghanistan is accomplished as well as the military-stronghold/placement of Iraq is ‘in bag’ as-well). A solitary, if tall, Arab wandering betwixt caves while dragging-behind his dialysis-machine is NOT a ’sufficiently scary’ enemy — even for the typical American-idiot to be manipulated with…
Iran, as an Islamic-Republic didn’t exist in the late-’70’s (when American plans for its ‘energy-future’ were being finalized under Carter — during the Peak of his “so-successful” employment of this canard of ‘terrorism’) — therefore, it had to be Invented. With help from the French, and massive covert-spending/machinations, this ‘revolutionary’ country was formed (and ‘controlled’) ever-since.
Trust me, Iran is in no-way ‘targeted’ — it is mid-way to being well-groomed as a convenient replacement for that other red-herring: the USSR.
Geopolitical alliances, as always, are made between governments and their coincident interests, not necessarily between the peoples they allegedly represent. But, also as usual, Americans seem aware only of the deceptions and misrepresentations of their own ‘greatest democracy on earth’, and even that level of awareness is often questionable.
There are Interests quite-capable of controlling any great-number of governments — and they do-so (by means of forming alliances and conjoined-Interests supportive of their-own). [Were this not ‘true’ (and continuing through plans spanning many-decades and of Machiavellian-scope), be assured — there would be no ‘modern-Israel’ for us to discuss here]
Israel/Zionism, of course, is but an example-used (not intended as any ‘focus’). But its a ‘fine example’ (as is the US) of how “playing both-ends against middle” actually “gets ‘er done” on the world-stage and in modern-Era. Most here seem to over-focus upon the readily-apparent (but often ‘false’) conjoined-Interests, rather than look for the ‘invisible-hand’ rocking these cradles. [But then, that’s what allows all these Interests to become as wealthy/successful as they are, right?]
Dems/Repugs, left/right, neo-Libs/neo-Cons, red/blue — most, with any real ‘influence’, still-or-soon pay the same-Pipers (but rarely get to name-the-tunes).
If you are aware of some singular ‘invisible-hand’ that invariably determines the formation of geopolitical alliances and the coincident interests upon which they are based, pray elucidate. The only consistent motivator I’m aware of is simple greed, but to me it seems widely and diversely shared and far from invisible.
when I was in Israel years ago, many people fled their from Germany and ovens, and considered Israel a safe haven and were terrified to even go out of that country they had been so traumatized… and yes, they do have neocon crazy leaders and religious fanatics, too, who are the ones that the media focuses upon… duh, nothing new here… I think most people all over the world want peace, it’s the power crazed loonies who think money is more important than life who want war war war war war, endless war, so that they can make money… and more money and more money and they don’t care how many people that are killed in the process.
The pole asked: “should Israel alone attack the Iranian nuclear installations,” 67.2 percent said no, while 20.9 percent said yes and 11.9 percent had no opinion, said the survey aired on public radio.
The pole did not ask: “Should Israel and the US attack Iranian nuclear installations. The poll results may have been different.
‘History’ elucidates aplenty — and book-length is insufficient to even begin to ‘connect dots’ for you. If you seek an easy-’enlightenment’, just apply some historical-perspective, make of yourself a ’shock-proof Realist’ without “getting froggy”, and apply the Occam’s-Razors of ‘Quo-Bono’ and ‘Know them by their fruits’ — still works, and wonderfully-well.
If it happens…yes, there was probably a ‘reason’. If Chaos-theory reared its ugly-head (as it often-has), these are Interests positioned-for and long-skilled at quickly advantaging-themselves with new-Paths toward old-Goals.
By tracking these Interests (not overly-hard to do), one can presume-Intents. Seeing the repeating-’successes’ regards those-Intents, one can then gage-accuracy by your ability to predict short-term/incremental Gains in given-directions.
We’ll digress, directly, into Political-philosophy and/or Economic-theory…[the horror!]
[And ‘no’, there is not any singular-entity/Interest ‘plotting ascendancy’ — no given ’secret-society’ (although many-such are ‘well-used’), and no cohesive/singular Evil at-play — abiding/multi-generational Interests are mostly-Secular, albeit reliant upon varied-Mythos as tools and for ‘inspiration’. All ‘lucky’ enough to be born-or-allowed into such Interests believe they are not-only ‘Good’, but uniquely-able to ‘Save all the [worthy] Others’ (while rewarding themselves, ‘appropriately’).
No one, ever, wanted to be ‘Evil’ — they just long to wield its Powers…]
No, 2cents, that misquote caught my attention immediately and it makes me wonder about the “journalist” who wrote the article.
Not reassuring at all, one third of those polled said that Israel should attack Iran. These must be exceedingly ignorant Jews or indication as to the number of the Zionazi.
The question is how to liberate the majority from the tyranny of the minority.
MeAlsoToo December 6th, 2007 5:20 pm — “‘History’ elucidates aplenty — and book-length is insufficient to even begin to ‘connect dots’ for you.”
I thought my request for elucidation was a very simple one. It was intended to be so and I certainly wasn’t asking you to connect dots for me.
You said that we (most of us) were ignoring “the ‘invisible-hand’ rocking these cradles.” It was on that point alone that I sought clarification. Now you say “there is not any singular-entity/Interest.” So, despite having read considerable history, or perhaps because of the many versions thereof, I have no idea what you were referring to as “the ‘invisible-hand’” in your original comment — unless you were just trying to sound mysterious.
No one should attack Iran or anyone else for that matter Until it is a proven fact that they are aimed and ready to strike us with weapon power, not with words or statements like “we think”–”They are evil”–”We don’t trust them.” We need an elected official with brains and intellect NOT one with a heavy finger just itching to pull the trigger or push a Button!
How stupid, with the world in as fragile state as it is to blow off a Nuclear warhead and then say OOOPPPS, my bad!
Winds Blow and what is sent out can come back to haunt us in a different form for the rest of our lives!
If you want to find the interests, follow the $$.
In the US, you’ve got the defense industries, AIPAC supporters and Christian fundamentalists who all believe that the ‘end-times’ all coming that fund politicians. Almost all politicians are afraid of what happens should that money leave their campaigns and fund an opponent.
You also have a US corporate media that is extremely pro-Israel. To the point where you find more criticism of Israel in Israeli media than in the US corporate media. This is important in elections as the corporate media always tries to destroy anyone who doesn’t follow this line.
In Israel, you’ve got a change in the economy in the last decade. In the 90’s, it was believed that peace was neccessary for the economy. Now its less tourist driven and instead its defense and intel industries in Israel that drive their economic growth.
There are several competing and/or cooperative Interests (as in capital-”I”, interests, albeit occasionally interchangeable or successive) that share/blend in moving/instigating ‘great-events’ (such as the appalling wars/depressions/coups/spins/’changes’ we so-deplore and discuss here.
Didn’t mean to imply ‘mystery’ — reading-in?
Events such as the Founding/holding of Israel, the Rise of Central-Banks, the decline of the labor-movement/middle-class, the passage of inane ethanol-additive Bills, the “taking of a Presidency”, wars that ‘happen’ to lay foundations for future-wars — these Events do not ‘blossom-forth’, as from the forehead of G-d, or solely due to ‘markets’ or timing or ‘Public-needs’ or weight-of-History. Most often, one finds Hands [Interests] clearing-the-way or guiding-Forward (or, at minimum, taking-advantage to accrue Means for further-’mischief’…).
We really HAVE digressed.
How about “my hunch is that neither Israel nor the US/West find it in their real-Interests to attack Iran — of all ME-countries, today”, and we’ll leave things at that…?
People everywhere always want peace. Most people want the same things. They want a place to raise their family. They want a secure job that pays them a decent wage and treats them with some respect.
Most people know that peace is essential to this. Probably more so in a country like Israel that actually experiences warfare than in the US where most people know war only from movies and TV.
War is crazy. War is insane. In the famous words of Gen. Sherman, war is hell. War almost always gets out of control, and leads to a disaster that was unimagined by the leaders that started it (every leader that started WWI thought it would be over in a couple of months).
Since the people want a peaceful place to live and raise a family, and since anyone with experience with war knows its a hell that gets easily out of control, its very common to find that in any country a majority of people want peace.
Regardless of where the original translation came from, here’s what Juan Cole (who reads Farsi and can translate it himself says). And to me, any quick translation or transcript of a speech is always subject to revision. Any news agency tries to get stuff out fast and can make mistakes.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/hitchens-hacker-and-hitchens.html (This page also contains a link to the Farsi text if anyone here can do their own translation)
From Cole:
…He made an analogy to Khomeini’s determination and success in getting rid of the Shah’s government, which Khomeini had said “must go” (az bain bayad berad). Then Ahmadinejad defined Zionism not as an Arabi-Israeli national struggle but as a Western plot to divide the world of Islam with Israel as the pivot of this plan.
The phrase he then used as I read it is “The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).”
Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope– that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah’s government.
Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that “Israel must be wiped off the map” with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time.
Leaders are one-thing, Interests another (in your example-above, surely you don’t mean to imply that MANY did not profit-handsomely from WW-I and yet-again from WW-II?).
I agree with you about war, of course. ‘Some’ do not (they would tell you ‘war makes things happen’, or, as Kissinger once quipped: “Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.”
[He, by and large, understands many of these ‘Interests’, btw]
Yes, “War is a Racket”, but even Butler wouldn’t argue that its a unprofitable-racket, nor that its not an all-too common means for accumulating the abilities to serve lasting-Interests. {Americans had best-hope ‘not’, seeing as how they’ve invested 25-trillion into ‘Defense’, just since “my War” in ‘68]
You and I belong to a non-exclusive caste … whether that’s the hoi-polloi/the People/the Proletariat/you-choose-moniker. As per-usual, we are generally left to ‘wish in one hand, and…’ well; we can only piss-up-the-rope towards some of these Interests, and thereby inherit our trickle-down.
“Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that “Israel must be wiped off the map” with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time.”
Of course he didn’t (although it is ‘interesting’ how someone in his own-cadre wouldn’t ‘know’ how this stupid/obvious misquote would ‘look’ to the West, no?).
And, Ineedajob would NEVER, even given the magical-ability to wave a wand and ‘wipe-out’ either Israel or its ‘GreatSatan-friend’ and with-impunity, do so. His regime [indeed, Islamic-fundamentalism as a whole], without the ‘Evil of Israel or her militaristic-Suzerainty’ wouldn’t last two-weeks in the face of its People’s-demands, sans ‘threat’.
IOW, he and the late-Ayatollah (and its inventor, Israel) need this bs-GWoT and so-called “Clash of Civilizations” FAR more than even the US does — we’re just along/cabbaging-on for the ‘fun&profits’, methinks.
MeAlsoToo December 6th, 2007 6:33 pm — “… one finds Hands [Interests] clearing-the-way or guiding-Forward (or, at minimum, taking-advantage to accrue Means for further-’mischief’ …”
Well, your original comment seemed to suggest the most of us were ignoring some singular and particular ‘invisible hand’ which certainly seemed mysterious to me and peeked my curiosity about what exactly we were ignoring.
If all you’re actually trying to say is that various interests that are currently coincident between two or more parties got that way due to various events that occurred further back in history, I wasn’t aware that that obvious and indisputable fact was being ignored. I will readily admit that current events and their immediate impacts tend to outweigh history in most comments here, but I don’t interpret that as an indication that the commenters are ignorant of their historical context.
Re Wolf Blitzer:
Ex-Washington bureau chief for the Jerusalem Post
Need more be said?
I’d like to thank the many commenters who noted that neither Ahmadinejad nor Khomeini expressed a desire to “wipe Israel off the map”. Despite this knowledge being readily available to journalists of the mainstream media, they continue to push the pro-Israeli line that Iran is determined to nuke Israel when this could be further from the truth.
Israel, like the US, is being run by hardcore fascists who are very expansion-minded and belligerent. They kill Palestinians on a daily basis and have constantly invaded their neighbors. It is very frustrating for many Americans that our elected officials are so beholden to this tiny Spartan country, having to sit by and watch while our tax dollars go to fund immense misery and heartache in the Middle East.
Meanwhile, our Democratic stalwarts in Congress continue their drive to make sure we stay at war.
“…Democratic congressional leaders are eyeing a shift in legislative strategy that would abandon a link between $50 billion in additional war funding sought by President Bush to a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops..”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/04/AR2007120402216_pf.html
And of course Israel is about to seize an opportunity to make things even worse …
“Army chief: Israeli army ready for incursion in Gaza”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-12/05/content_7205418.htm
A few years ago the President of Iran was quoted as saying the following:
“They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets.”
Is this a misquote?
and if so, what did he really say?
MeAlsoToo: You offer some interesting perspective about Iran being the LAST place that Isreal and the West want to attack. It echos what I e-mailed to Thom Hartmann over a year ago. At that time, I told him that the next war wouldn’t be with Iran. The next manufactured 911-type incident is going to come from somewhere outside the ME, but a place that has a large Muslim population - Indonesia, maybe. [After all, they have to keep up the pretense that this is a GLOBAL war - not just a ME war - on terror.] And it will come from a group with a name even more unpronounceable - and thus, more scarey for the average American - than al-Queda.
After all, Iran is a publically known entity. What the world elite created with al-Queda was a nearly (publically, anyway) absolute unknown. This tapped into something deeper and more powerful than people’s fear. It tapped into their worst nightmare - the idea of total annihilation. To go after Iran now would be anti-climatic. The world elite need to tap that deepest terror again. Iran won’t get them that. What Iran does get them, however, is a red-herring to keep people’s attention, thus again increasing the fear of just how awful everyone else in the world really is.
It’s either that or a rigged nuclear ‘accident,’ as others here have suggested, when tens of thousands would die.
I hope I’m wrong.
When the Messiah shows up at the End of Times, I doubt that He will waste His time listening to the plea of Israel and the US…
He will say: “Father, do not forgive them, for they knew exactly what they were doing”…
dude3 December 6th, 2007 9:20 pm:
“Is this a misquote?
and if so, what did he really say?”
I found these quotes on wikipedia
“Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel”
Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions. […] The same European countries have imposed the illegally-established Zionist regime on the oppressed nation of Palestine. If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there. Then the Iranian nation will have no objections, will stage no rallies on the Qods Day and will support your decision.
They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets. The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets, (it) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet. If you have burned the Jews, why don’t you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel? Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?
Anti-Semitism in Europe has forced Jews to leave their countries of origin, but what they did instead was occupy a country which is not theirs but that of Palestinians
We are sorry for any human being killed in the two world wars. We respect Moses as we respect Jesus, but it is just unacceptable that the Palestinians should suffer from the aftermath
Dude3,
It looks to me that Ahmadinejad probably did refer the German holocaust of Jews as a “myth”. Although, it is clear that the intent when viewed in context - as provided by jlocke123 above - is more that he was commenting on the existence of European laws making it illegal to deny this holocaust. (which is a little strange I suppose when you think about it in comparison to the concept “free speech”.)
Regardless, I of course wouldn’t deny that calling the German holocaust of Jews a myth is inaccurate. That said, such a statement is hardly an existential threat against Israel, and it certainly isn’t so threatening as to justify an aggressive war-promoting posture against Iran.
The Turks deny the Armenian genocide all the time.
The importance of debunking the misquoted “wiped off the map” quote is that is sounds like a threat to destroy Israel and everyone in it. Such a statement, if it had actually been uttered, would be a very serious threat, and may reasonably be taken very gravely.
Referring to the German holocaust of Jews as a myth, is just stupid.
the more accurate translation of the misquote is this:
“this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.”
right?
and around the same time he was quoted (see above) calling the holocaust a myth.
and then they hosted a conference on the holocaust featuring a group of deniers and, of course, david duke.
without even mentioning some of the other rhetoric coming out of iran, isn’t it possible that the average israeli might feel threatened by iran?
maybe not, because regimes vanish from the page of time peacefully all the time.
really, history is full of stories of regimes just giving up power without any violence at all. it’s one of our better traits as humans.
and here’s a thought;
if the above poll was given to average iranians, what would the results be?
Israeli Prime Minister Olmert does not appear to want Iran bombed, and probably realizes the potential for a disaster. He is under pressure by the right wing to destroy Iranian nuclear capacity of any sort, and to punish Iran for supporting terrorists in Lebanon, but there is more to Israel than the right wing.
He probably also realizes that Israel would live with the aftermath, while the AIPAC money boys and the American wacko chickenhawk neocons trying to manipulate him will be safe back in DC.
Shalom
RE: Arvy December 6th, 2007 3:04 pm
“If you are aware of some singular ‘invisible-hand’ that invariably determines the formation of geopolitical alliances and the coincident interests upon which they are based, pray elucidate.”
Gladly, and here is the link:
http://iamthewitness.com/doc/RothschildsTimeline-filer/frame.htm
After you have looked at that (it will take awhile if you study it carefully & think about it) here is how one portion of their agenda has worked out:
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf
Thn come back to this thread and see if things look the same. I’d be interested in hearing/seeing/reading if your opinions on numerous matters involving Iran, Isreal, the USA, Zionism, etc. have changed.
dude3 I don’t know if it’s a misquote or not But I do know many morons don’t belive in the Halocaust, but it sure doesn’t constitute a reason to go to war!
It’s good to know that 2/3 of Israelis stand on the side of peace and justice against the zionist, capitalist, militarist, imperialist beast. The beast is backed into a corner by recent news of its many catastrophic failures. This explains why it declared martial law in the US. The beast is severely wounded and highly vulnerable and dangerous at this point in time.
As for stating the “regime” in Isreal should be ‘wiped from the face of the Earth’, I would have to agree. I feel the same way about the “regime” we now have in the US. Of interest is polls of the US & Isreal OF THE PEOPLE show an almost numerically equal dis-enchantment with the leadership of their countries. This indicates both countries have been hijacked by neo-CON, religious fundamentalist, Zionist, MIC/MSM, minority, warmongering elements, that completely disregard the will of the majority of their peoples. Mossad & the CIA walk hand in hand, using tactics of assassination, propaganda, & false flag operations to advance their warped agendas. Even more threatening is DHS, headed by dual Isreali/US citizenship holding Michael Chertoff.
Here’s a quote from the link below:
“Chertoff, whose name means ‘of the devil’ in Russian, is attempting to further circumvent Posse Comitatus. He is trying to gain control of law enforcement to ensure that the Department of Homeland Security, which will include the Office of Internal Security, the Office of Political Security, and other agencies to be created after Posse Comitatus is overturned, will have a civilian mechanism to control a militarized law enforcement because they don’t want the military to control it.”
http://www.lookingglassnews.org/printerfriendly.php?storyid=2067
“if the above poll was given to average iranians, what would the results be?
”
I don’t know hom many Iranians you know. Those that I know would certainly not be in favour of an attack on Israel. Ahmadinejad is the most hardline, and even he is not in favour of attacking Israel, not unless Iran is attacked first.
The Israeli and US leadership, on the other hand, has been consistently belligerent and threatening. It is Israel and tbe US who talk openly about bombing Iran. While the most that the hardline president of Iran can manage is ‘erasing the zionist regime from the page of history’, and a bit of holocaust denial.
And regarding holocaust denial, you’ll find that people in non-western countries simply don’t care about the holocaust in the same way we do, because they were not responsible, and it has hardly any resonance in their psyche. Why should Iranians care that Germans sent Jews to the gas chamber? We don’t really care about the various historic genocides that have occurred in Armenia, Rwanda, Cambodia, China, Russia…I’m just listing off the top of my head really. We might study them, we might even protest the ones which are occurring, like in the Sudan, but at the end of the day, its not our fault (or at least it doesn’t seem like it is, although sometimes…) And the fact is, the President of Iran denying the Jewish holocaust is no worse than Israel denying the Armenian holocaust, which it what it is doing right now.
This is from American Jewish Life:
“For years, Turkey has lobbied Jewish groups to stay away from the genocide label, explicitly saying they might be less supportive of Israel. The highest ranks of Turkish officials, including their foreign minister, approached the ADL and others to make their case, and in a fit of fear and realpolitik, the ADL shook hands with Turkey and essentially became accomplices in genocide denial.”
http://www.ajlmagazine.com/archivesblog/2007/11/day-holocaust-died.html
So, the case for bombing Iran was that it was building nuclear weapons (and now it isn’t), it was threatening Israel (hardly), and the President denied the Jewish holocaust (because he’s Iranian, hasn’t had he history drilled into his head about that topic as much as we have, and feels that Israel manipulates the holocaust to its own advantage).
Well, now I can build my case to bomb Israel. It has nuclear weapons. It constantly threatens and even attacks its neighbours, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and of course Palestine. And it denies the Armenian holocaust!!!! Woo-hoo, I’m convinced, lets get those dangerous, holocaust-denying freaks. Where do the Commondreams staff keep their stealth bombers….
This is like the majority of Jews were against the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
That is what they say–but I don’t hear them, I don’t see them. All the Jewish represntives I see and hear support the Zionist agenda.
Sorry, this is the same as the line that Israel warned against attacking Iraq as damage control to curb potential blowback. Our congressman and all politicians who pander to Jewish interests echo zionist/neocon aims–HClinton, the perfect example– andthat belies this talk of majorities universally.
Apparently the Israeli voters are just as fickle and dim-witted as the American electorate.
First they vote to put two right wing fanatics in office, Bush and Olmert, then when Israel runs into some military resistance in Lebanon and the USA runs into a quagmire in Iraq the warmongering voters that facilitated these guys are now having second thoughts.
I guess we can look to nazi Germany for some comparisons, when things started to crumble for the Third Reich you would be hard pressed to find someone to admit they actually supported Hitler, when in fact he was elected Chancellor by over 90% of the vote.
Lets face it, whoever said you can never go wrong underestimating the intelligence of the American voter, was correct.
With all the energy, debate and controversy swirling around the “correct” interpretation of 3 or 4 of Ahmadinejad’s notorious statements, let me make two comments:
1)Ahmadinejad has little power in the Iranian government, and probably even less influence.
2) On any one day, W. will make 3 or 4 far more controversial and contradictory statements than Ahmadinejad could ever even dream up. The American public and the media simply ignore him.
So why should we give more weight to Ahmadinejad’s statements than we give to the Decider’s, whose finger is on the nuclear button?
I don’t suppose it has ever occurred to anyone. But, they are extremely hypocritical in not wanting Iran to have nuclear weapons. They have had that sort of weapons for several years now. No one in our government had a word to say about it. Myself I think Israel with nuclear weapons is just as dangerous as Iran. They are too much like Bush, shoot first and ask questions later when it turns out of be a mess. I am not as afraid of terrorist’s or Iran with nuclear weapons as I am that immoral degenerate in the White House who has his finger on the button that could blow all of us to kingdom come. From where I am standing all Iran wants it to protect itself. They have just as much right as the US or Israel. So what is the big deal here??????
And like us, they can’t fire their leaders.
Remember the French Revolution?
“If all you’re actually trying to say is that various interests that are currently coincident between two or more parties got that way due to various events that occurred further back in history, I wasn’t aware that that obvious and indisputable fact was being ignored.”
Arvy…that’s a grosser misinterpretation of what I was referring to than your earlier ‘baiting’ re: some ‘conspiracy theory’.
What you say above is what ’should be’ in a world ‘unrocked by self-Interested hands’, so to speak. Most human-travail and great-events are dictated for the enjoyment/profit or Mythos of a tiny-minority carrying out a multi-generational ‘plan’ enriching themselves at all-others expense. This is a coordinated, secretive, and deliberate act on their-part.
The easiest-example of same, that you can readily read-about, would be the Rise and current-roles of the Rothschild-family (and carry that through connections with JDR&heirs as well as JPMorgan&FedReserve/Masonic/governmental-’influences’ in the US (and in Britain through Rhodes/DeBeers/Balfour/etc.). Just don’t get ‘too excited’ and think that’s the only-such (or even the most-powerful) ‘Interest’. It is mid-way in a ‘pack’ (others would say ‘Cabal’) of a couple-dozen.
These dirty Thirty percent in Israel and the US are the chief obstacle to sane governments. I agree with vinlander that somehow 30% of people are so conformist or afraid or something that they are ridiculously manipulated by elites and appear devoid of independent thought. Canada and Europe must have their 30% too and yet have sane governments- progressives need to figure out how to break the hold on these 30%
“I hope I’m wrong.”
Good news, then…!
RE: SEQUOIABISON December 7th, 2007 7:53 am
“Apparently the Israeli voters are just as fickle and dim-witted as the American electorate. First they vote to put two right wing fanatics in office, Bush and Olmert”
Although I agree that the US populace has been “dumbed down”, if you had taken the time to peruse the thread I posted earlier, you would see this has been intentionally done (See PaulMagillSmith December 7th, 2007 12:28 am).
There is plenty of evidence to support the fact Bush was never elected, but ’selected & installed’. How can you assume the same process & people didn’t affect a similar coup in Isreal regarding Olmert? Who is the tail, though, and who is the dog is the question?
Ramses was never a member of the royal family in ancient Egypt, choosing instead to start his own dynasty when the the previous lineage died out. What makes you believe times have changed regarding our current American (or Isreali) ‘royal’ dynasties?
I do completely with this part of your post however, “…put two right wing fanatics in office…”
RE: MeAlsoToo December 7th, 2007 1:41 pm
“This is a coordinated, secretive, and deliberate act on their-part.”…
“the Rothschild-family…” current owners of..”DeBeers”…”Just don’t get ‘too excited’ and think that’s the only-such (or even the most powerful) ‘Interest’.”…ever heard of Skull & Bones or Carlyle Group?…”It is mid-way in a ‘pack’ (others would say ‘Cabal’) of a couple-dozen.”
Current estimates have about 900 people ‘ruling’ the rest of the 6 billion+ people on the planet through military, financial, political, & media control means.
If you want to know what MeAlsoToo and I are speaking of I reiterate:
http://iamthewitness.com/doc/RothschildsTimeline-filer/frame.htm
hermes, denying isn’t the same as not caring. and really, the only threatening regimes in the middle east are the u.s and israel? everyone else is just so nice.
Dude3, what point are you trying to make? That the US and Israel (who clearly are the most threatening regimes in the ME), are right to be threating to attack Iran, and perhaps should actually do so because Iran actively denies the holocaust?
What is your point? btw: The Islamic Republic of Iran has never attacked anyone. Do you honestly believe they are going to commit suicide by attacking Israel?