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Today's Top News
US Says It Has Right to Kidnap British Citizens
AMERICA has told Britain that it can "kidnap" British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.
A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it.
The admission will alarm the British business community after the case of the so-called NatWest Three, bankers who were extradited to America on fraud charges. More than a dozen other British executives, including senior managers at British Airways and BAE Systems, are under investigation by the US authorities and could face criminal charges in America.
Until now it was commonly assumed that US law permitted kidnapping only in the "extraordinary rendition" of terrorist suspects.
The American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime by Washington.
Legal experts confirmed this weekend that America viewed extradition as just one way of getting foreign suspects back to face trial. Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate.
The US government's view emerged during a hearing involving Stanley Tollman, a former director of Chelsea football club and a friend of Baroness Thatcher, and his wife Beatrice.
The Tollmans, who control the Red Carnation hotel group and are resident in London, are wanted in America for bank fraud and tax evasion. They have been fighting extradition through the British courts.
During a hearing last month Lord Justice Moses, one of the Court of Appeal judges, asked Alun Jones QC, representing the US government, about its treatment of Gavin, Tollman's nephew. Gavin Tollman was the subject of an attempted abduction during a visit to Canada in 2005.
Jones replied that it was acceptable under American law to kidnap people if they were wanted for offenses in America. "The United States does have a view about procuring people to its own shores which is not shared," he said.
He said that if a person was kidnapped by the US authorities in another country and was brought back to face charges in America, no US court could rule that the abduction was illegal and free him: "If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse - it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s."
Mr Justice Ouseley, a second judge, challenged Jones to be "honest about [his] position".
Jones replied: "That is United States law."
He cited the case of Humberto Alvarez Machain, a suspect who was abducted by the US government at his medical office in Guadalajara, Mexico, in 1990. He was flown by Drug Enforcement Administration agents to Texas for criminal prosecution.
Although there was an extradition treaty in place between America and Mexico at the time - as there currently is between the United States and Britain - the Supreme Court ruled in 1992 that the Mexican had no legal remedy because of his abduction.
In 2005, Gavin Tollman, the head of Trafalgar Tours, a holiday company, had arrived in Toronto by plane when he was arrested by Canadian immigration authorities.
An American prosecutor, who had tried and failed to extradite him from Britain, persuaded Canadian officials to detain him. He wanted the Canadians to drive Tollman to the border to be handed over. Tollman was escorted in handcuffs from the aircraft in Toronto, taken to prison and held for 10 days.
A Canadian judge ordered his release, ruling that the US Justice Department had set a "sinister trap" and wrongly bypassed extradition rules. Tollman returned to Britain.
Legal sources said that under traditional American justice, rendition meant capturing wanted people abroad and bringing them to the United States. The term "extraordinary rendition" was coined in the 1990s for the kidnapping of terror suspects from one foreign country to another for interrogation.
There was concern this weekend from Patrick Mercer, the Tory MP, who said: "The very idea of kidnapping is repugnant to us and we must handle these cases with extreme caution and a thorough understanding of the implications in American law."
Shami Chakrabarti, director of the human rights group Liberty, said: "This law may date back to bounty hunting days, but they should sort it out if they claim to be a civilized nation."
The US Justice Department declined to comment.
Additional reporting: Anna Mikhailova
© Copyright 2007 Times Newspapers Ltd.
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76 Comments so far
Show AllWow! Can we kidnap Tony Blair and try him for war crimes in the United States? I'm game. In exchange we could extradite the BushCo crowd to the Hague.
The U.S. claims it's lawful to "kidnap" British citizens (or other foreigners) if they are wanted for crimes in the United States because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it.
So - if the US has a right to abduct citizens from other countries , then it should also be lawful for other countries to kidnap American citizens and bring them to trial overseas. Yes?
If so, I think Iraq should accuse Bush and Cheney of war crimes - indiscriminate murder of their citizens - scoop them up - and bring them to trial.
Suggestion: Iraq should hire Blackwater mercenaries to make the capture. They will do just about anything if the price is right.
My exact thoughts, militantliberal!
Seems like I remember reading somewhere that Bush has a lot of land in South America somewhere. Paraguay, Argentina, I'm not sure. Anyway, if we can impeach him (go Dennis!) and he heads south of the border, maybe we can use this law to kidnap him and bring him back to trial.
How weird is it that not only do we have laws on the books that are based on a 2,000-year-old bronze age herder text, but we also have laws on the books that date back to the Wild, Wild West? Go figure.
"The U.S. Justice Department declined to comment."
Attorney General Mukasey: The world needs you to step in here and set some limits on the actions of the Empire.
The unspeakable arrogance of an outlaw nation. Surely we must collapse from our own hubris, if nothing else.
holyshit! Tony
Absolutely incredible.
Hey, all of you Limey bloggers who post here better lie low, the Blackwater gang will be hunting you down when Bush is crowned.
You good lookin KittyladyOregon? Where do you wish to be taken? I've got a deep cave stocked with beer, homemade wine, dried fruit, peanut butter and cheeze crackers. Oh, dried beans and rice too.
Somehow I think the usa would react quite differently if it was a yank kidnapped from the usa and put on trial in another country. Shame that the Isrealies weren't able to catch someone like Von Braum and take him to Isreal for a warcrime trial over his conduct in Penemunda...
Bernice I am assuming thats in sarcasm as Mukasey is very much an insider to the Empire project.
And impeachment is STILL off the table. Democraps are to blame for all of Bush crimes. Send them to the Hague, along with all posters on Democratic Underground.
Remember the Bogart film Casablanca? People were killing for exit visas and letters of transit. We may get to that point yet. I was just reading a post where the REAL ID Act was written into law by attaching it to a "must pass" spending bill.
Your papers, please?
Some sane country out there in the world really does need to use this to get bush&cheney out of here and into a prison where they belong. It might be the only way to save our country.
skippyagogo41--Yes we would react differently. How would you like being in the axis of evil all of a sudden?
hsk01945--What's sauce for the Goose-in-Chief. This is what extradition treaties are all about; but I guess extradition is an ex-tradition.
Bush the dictator of the One World Order. Forget about any treaties or laws they are all now just a piece of paper.
Redjeff, I'm Canadian. Were I to experience being kidnapped it's likely to be a yank kidnapping me. Of course, I doubt that your gov't would bother with me. That being said I wouldn't like to visit the homeland of the axis of evil, otherwise known as the USA.
Damn the edit function.
I'd better qualify my statement that the usa is the real axis of evil. Your country claims the right to break the law (kidnapping people is unlawful in every country on earth) in order to enforce other laws; an evil act. The usa is practicing torture, keeping secret prisoners, holding show trials, denying the right of habeus corpus and has subverted the democratic process in the usa by fixing elections. Calling the us govt anything but evil is to be overly polite.
It is also Bushmerica "law" that "we" reserve the right to assassinate anyone we want anywhere in the world anytime we feel like it, because the entire planet is now a "battlefield" in "the long war" AKA WWIII AKA WWIV AKA full spectrum dominance AKA terror terror terror.
To review: "we" can now kidnap, torture, assassinate, invade and occupy at will and not even any of the assorted Gods who apparently still bless this country can do a thing about it.
Can't wait till we're all wearing "W" armbands...
Canada's government sucks too. As a Canadian i can confirm that.
It just isnt big enough to mess around with everyone, haitians, seal pups, a few arabs, that's about the scope of it.
US government is behaving like a "mad dog". It does not care about the international laws. It has kept itself above everything, but expects other countries to follow international laws????
What would anyone do with a "mad dog" that is violent and harmful????
Perpetrate a crime to prosecute a crime? That's nice. What arrogance and contempt. Why do they hate us??? This is but example number 2,345,638,243...
KEM PATRICK
yeah, but you gotta find us first!!! and if you can't find osama bin laden, well, hell,......... get my point!!
how are you kem? i haven't been around for a while i know. but watching all the same. just not able to comment till now. but i'm back on track and with you all the way!!!!!
What kind of racist system clings on to ancient 19th century "Wild West" legislation to allow itself to justify its own uncivilised behaviour?
Civilised nations no longer have slaves or child labour, but those were both legal when this bounty law was passed.
Isn't it about time the USA finally decided to join the civilised world? (we'll even let you even spell it "civilized"...).
All non-US people are forced to pay lip service to the totally mental USA anti-drug obsession, the least the USA could do is to start treating non-US people as actual human beings.
I love the notion that the reverse could be applied to US citizens. This could mean that Bush, Cheney, Condi, Rummy, etc, etc, might never set foot outside the US again. And, they would forever have to look over their shoulders in case justice should seize them and spirit them anywhere else on the globe. I wonder how they'll feel when nowhere is safe.
I love the irony of the author's comment:
"This law may date back to bounty hunting days, but they should sort it out if they claim to be a civilized nation"
It goes right along with Gandhi's response to 'what do you think of Western civilization?', "I think that is is a good idea"
Does anyone know a credible source of this illusion that we're a civilized country"?
Just when I thought things couldn't get any better, damn … …
Namaste … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … … … … … … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is enough to meet everybody's need, but there is not enough to meet everybody's greed »
What the hell - the US and Uk are joined at the hip anyway - why not kidnap each other?
nspire: Get real. Gandhi didn't wear sneakers.
There is a simple solution to all this. Every country should require visiting US citizens to sign an undertaking to abide by the laws of the land they are entering. No signature, no entry. Any US traveler, CIA operative, diplomat, congressmen or judge who refused would be returned to the US on the first available plane. Penalty for any breach - ten years jail.
I would like to relocate to a CIVILISED country. I am 70 years old and don't eat much. Any takers?
I just can't stand being a citizen of such a rogue country which is truly the Evil Empire.
Hi COCO, it is truly great to hear from you. We've been worried about you, and we are delighted to see you are just fine and posting again.
The reason we can't find Osama, is because he isn't in Iraq and he's not a pretty gal. But you and those Limeys would be easy. Just tell them someone is going to kidnap them and they'll jump up and shout, "Come an get me you you bloody bastards".
Tit-for-tat applies.
Can anyone think of one or two Americans they would like the Brits to snach?
"AMERICA has told Britain that it can "kidnap" British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States."
This rule should apply to governments around the world.
Easy. Snatch Simon Cowell and Ozzy. Wanted most the world over for crimes against civilisation.
Excuse me, but I thought this country was founded on treason against the British. Since then, however, I thought that we made it clear that we would do the same anywhere in the world. It seems this surprising revelation may be a couple of centuries late.
Presumably Syria, North Korea, Venezuela and Iran have the same right. The US cannot have its legal cake and eat it too, with everyone else required to adhere to longstanding international law and precedents while arrogating to itself the power to do as it chooses. The forced disappearances, deaths under torture, black-site secret prisons and other outrages merely fuel hatred of us and recruit terrorists to avenge what they rightly see as our unjust, evil designs. While we may not agree with their violent tactics, we can certainly understand their anger. This descending spiral of lawlessness and violence has to stop, and Congress must stop funding, conniving at and supporting this criminal behavior and finally regain the respect of the world by repealing immunity, conducting open hearings and taking action.
The democrats are complicit with the bushie gov't. Two sides of the same coin. I do not believe that the demo's would pull us troops out of Iraq, nor will they be stopping the tortures at guano base in Cuba, nor would they free anyone kidnapped by the policy argued by us lawyers in England.
I highly doubt that they'll vote for impeachment in the event that bush attacks Iran. Call me a cynical anti-us hatemonger if you want, it won't change the truth of the matter; which is that if democracy is to survive in the usa you're going to have to find and elect a third political party by 2008. If you have elections at all.
By the way, your country was founded on being tax evaders. Your upper class in the 1770s didn't want to pay for the 7 years war, so you ended up paying a hell of a lot more in taxes so as to become an independent country. Practiced torture then too, unless you think tarring and feathering people is not torture.
World leaders (and corporate heads as well) must now watch their butts when traveling so I guess every dark cloud has a silver lining somehow, eh?
Since AIPAC & Isreal seem to be the 'tail wagging the dog' in the US now, I'm not surprised at this travesty of international justice. A good example is the abduction of Adolf Eichmann from Argentina in the early '60's by Nazi hunters.
Eichmann, the bombing terrorist Menachem Begin, and most of BushCo should be/should have been all held to the same standard of international law. Two are dead, but if there is anything like a just God, the 'Pearly Gates' will be slammed shut emphatically whenever ANY of these criminals try to steal their way through. Decent people should not condone the activities of any of these monsters. I don't, how about you?
Tarring was painting the victem's entire naked body with an almost boiling, thick layer of hot melted tar, then covered with feathers. I don't believe the feathers hurt, except perhaps for the fowl they were plucked from.
Then the victem was placed on a thin wooden fence rail, thin side up on the boiled crotch and run out of town. I would believe that is torture, as were stocks, drowning of 'witches', burning people to death while tied to a stake while chanting verses from the Holy Bible, scalping humans alive, which BTW was not an American Indian idea, scalping originated in Europe.
All of that and other crimes against humanity including allowing slavery, was finally outlawed and forbidden as we Americans became somewhat civilized over time. Or at least we attempted to be. Now we have almost suddenly turned around and have taken on the despicable role of Hitler's Nazi-ism. Which begins by effectively controlling the free press and media. Of course Adolph Hitler and his actions were well approved and even funded by George W. Bush's very wealthy grandfather, Preston Bush. ___ It must be in the genes.
At one point in history Britain thought it had a right to kidnap US sailors and impress them into the British Navy. We didn't much care for that idea so we fought the War of 1812. We are so arrogant, and some still wonder why everyone hates us?
RE: goodman December 2nd, 2007 9:39 pm
"We are so arrogant, and some still wonder why everyone hates us?"
Since there are countries around the world who don't have a MSM as completely controlled as here in the US, it is important to realize while the policies of the US government are reviled by much of the world population, there is still much love for the American people. The truth of our struggle is known by the 'people' of many nations around the world. Many, though, do hold us responsible for allowing our government to get so far out of hand. We shouldn't make excuses, but there are valid reasons corrections are so difficult.
Of course there are other nations/people who must share blame for the current state of this screwed up world. The UK, any radical fundamentalist Islamists/Jewish/Christians, or members of the 'Coalition of the killing/billing', come quckly to mind. To acquiesce to the rantings of any archaic extremist religion, or warmongering moneymongers, is inappropriate behavior by any definition of enlightened humanity, and must be resisted to have a peaceful world.
Our current mission is to speak up & speak out everywhere, so the weight of our sheer numbers will have maximum impact.
PaulMagillSmith;
No doubt, most if not all yanks are cool people. Even the most pro-yankee individual I've ever met has been friendly and a pleasure to be around. I've met many usn sailors who were fun to go drinking with during the time I served in Canada's military. But it's incredibly agrevating to find that some of these nice people turn into demons when given a bit of authority; note, I've found that's the case with Canadians too. (stupid government rat-bastards.) I'd also imagine that's the case with a lot of the other ratbastards of the world.
Amazing what we humans do when we get together into mobs, eh?
WTF?
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/unsanam2
Sign it! You've got nothing left to lose.
Richard Posner--signed your petition. 75 down, 999,925 to go. Bush and Cheney are toast.
Are you the judge?
Bush denied he has that land in South America, says it's a myth. So there ya go, he don't have it.
Bet we better not kidnap any Chinese or North Koreans and let them find it out.
Well Sweet Jumping Jesus!
All Hail Ceaser!
Conquerer of the World!
Be Afraid of his total power over the Senate and the courts!
The whole world is his. Lower your eyes when he passes. Support his War Games or else!
Anybody he doesn't like (including elites) he will nail up on a waterboarding cross!
Oh Great one, there is somebody I'd like you to meet: His name is Marcus Brutus.....
First, they came for the bankers, but beause I was not a banker, I did nothing....
The Nazis had also claimed that they had a legal right to send Jews to medical disinfection camps for their own good.