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The Vagina Dialogues
Women cannot be prevented from getting Aids without ending violence towards them
Vagina is the most terrifying word, the most threatening word, in any language of any country I have ever been to. Even when the vagina is worshipped in theory, as the yoni is in India, it is denigrated in practice. It is more reviled and feared than words like plutonium, genocide and starvation. In many countries the word for female genitalia is so derogative or disgusting, it cannot be spoken in public. In a few places, there is no word in the language for vagina at all.
As the vagina is the primary port of transmission from men to women of the Aids virus, how women and men perceive vaginas, talk about or don't talk about vaginas, how women know their vaginas, feel agency over their vaginas, determines everything about their future. Many women, even in so-called progressive countries, are still not comfortable asking a man out, acting directly on their own desire, be it for a man or a woman. Many women who are sexually active and educated about the virus are still, because of insecurity and embarrassment, having unsafe sex. Many women in the year 2010 do not know how their clitoris functions or how to give themselves pleasure, nor do they feel safe telling a partner or a husband what they need or that it hurts when they are entered without preparation or that it would all work much better if it happened slower.
For so many women in the world, because there is no open sex education, because women are discouraged from masturbation, because sex has been defined – like science or maths or business or politics – as something essentially male and belonging to men, sex is perceived as something foreign and inaccessible. Because women are regularly forced and taken against their will in parts of the world, sex has become associated with pain. It has become something you survive. Each year millions of women forcibly have their clitoris cut and removed. For many women, your vagina belongs to the clan, to the tribe, to the state, to the church, to the mosque, to the temple, to your husband. But it most certainly does not belong to you. So if it isn't yours, how do you protect it or cherish it?
You cannot prevent women from getting Aids without ending violence towards them, without shifting the dynamics of power. You cannot stop a disease that is being transmitted through sex unless you admit that sex exists, unless women have a right to sex and desire – the same way men have a right – unless women are equal active participants and not passive recipients of men's desires and thus the diseases men pass on through their narcissistic ejaculations. Until women know they have a right to refuse to be touched or entered and a right to invite it, a right to demand protection and a right to expect it, there will be no ending Aids. And until these rights are backed up by courts and enforced by states, women will never have those rights.
A man can get away with raping a virgin and saying he believes it will cure Aids, as long as there is a sanctioned and enforced environment of sexual ignorance. Creating a true and substantial dialogue about sex and sexuality means breaking taboos and asking questions. It means standing up to authorities like the church, which refuse to promote contraception and sex education. It means boldly speaking out against fundamentalist forces that promote abstinence, claiming it prevents Aids and STDs and early pregnancy when the data tells another story.
Frankly, nothing short of a worldwide sexual revolution will stop the spread of Aids. We need to dissemble the shame, reclaim pleasure, celebrate desire, human connection, skin and touch. We need to release the shackles of oppression, one-way enjoyment and narrow-minded education. We need open and fearless discussion allowing sex to be what it is – natural and beautiful.
The revolution will not happen without men. We need to create an environment where sexuality is more about connection than conquering, more about pleasure than performance. Men need to ask questions, and admit their vulnerabilities. They need to go slow and go deeper. Women need to expect this, demand it and allow a place for it.
The time is now. There are 33 million people living in the world with the HIV virus, about half of them women. I venture to say a good portion of them got the disease because there is no environment which supports them saying outright and directly, "Love my vagina".
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66 Comments so far
Show AllMy feeling is that this time around, it will not be the men who are able to fix the world.
It will be the women and the children.
All the power to them.
Yup, like Sarah Palin, Condi Rice, Hillary, Ileana Ros-Leichnan, Christine O’Donnell, Anne Coulter...
There is some evidence that women who succeed in many male dominated fields do so by going "native", i.e. they adopt the same ethos as that of any ruthless man climbing the career ladder. Thus, women who have a shot at becoming top dog usually turn out to have the same relationship toward mainstream feminism and its activists that Barack Obama and Colin Powell have toward the Civil Rights movement of Martin Luther King and Fannie Lou Hamer.
Ideologies and movements based on mechanistic differences also tend to become brittle and can be coopted with childish ease:
http://www.thenation.com/article/155109/who-stole-feminism?page=full
M 156: Well-stated. I tire of trying to educate those who prefer their own sexist knee-jerk reactions to what's actually true. They mistake Essence with what's been long entangled in deep, imprisoning historic roots.
Thank you for making a very necessary point gently and concisely.
I was reading this, but got distracted by a true scotsman walking by my window.
Sigh, the same old anti-woman trick never dies out. Those names you mentioned are nothing but monied opportunists and they do not deserve to be mentioned. Salusa was referring to ordinary women and children who have tried to help rescue humanity in softer and gentler ways. It is disingenuous of you to associate all women and children with those bad names you threw out.
It's sexist/agist to think that older women are somehow better than younger women.
And also sexist to think that men are not capable of softer gentler ways and have not been softer and gentler.
And rescue?
People rarely need rescuing, all they need is to be empowered and then they can rescue themselves.
MORTUARY: Once again you place the INDIVIDUAL and his/her preferences in place of the larger social/sociological movements and the vast impact of sexist policies on half of the human race.
You have NEVER looked into what it means that the concept of God, itself, is taken under the MASCULINE pronoun. How different is that for women, then the experience of Black kids growing up in white society? Or Native Americans in a land ruled by Caucasians?
And your CONSTANT apologies for the HISTORY of rabid sexism is nothing short of diabolical. You are not ignorant. You seem to have an agenda.
I hope you make these statements one day in the presence of a woman who's experienced the dark side of sexism her whole life. Maybe she'll give you a rude awakening in the form of a WELL-DESERVED slap across the face! You come off as glib and disaffected by what's probably the biggest issue to women all over the world. Of course the fundamentalist Christians are making "progress" in getting women to obey their husbands, submit to male authority, and worship exclusively the father-GOD ... perhaps you are one of them?
Jeez, SR, your dwelling on the fantasy of another woman (who disagrees with you) getting slapped across the face does not do much to advance your proposition that women are nurturing and peaceful by nature (as opposed to men).
Namaste: In Sanskrit the word is namah + te = namaste which means “I bow to you” - my greetings, salutations or prostration to you
Thanks for the respect you show me in your closing. Too bad it's just another piece of hooey you brandish to reinforce that phony New Age wisdom you want others to see in you. Your perspective, like SR's, only separates you from other people by your making unwarranted judgments about them. And you have no sense of humor at all.
"MORTUARY: Once again you place the INDIVIDUAL and his/her preferences in place of the larger social/sociological movements and the vast impact of sexist policies on half of the human race.
* Stop making things up about me )
You have NEVER looked into what it means that the concept of God, itself, is taken under the MASCULINE pronoun. How different is that for women, then the experience of Black kids growing up in white society? Or Native Americans in a land ruled by Caucasians?
* I'm Australian, why would you think that what happens in America is foremost in my mind? A bit of American arrogance perhaps.
and stop making things up about me, further you have no idea what I know about religion , all you can factually say is that I have made few comments
And your CONSTANT apologies for the HISTORY of rabid sexism is nothing short of diabolical. You are not ignorant. You seem to have an agenda.
* show me the apologies, you can't , I have never written any nor thought any
I hope you make these statements one day in the presence of a woman who's experienced the dark side of sexism her whole life. Maybe she'll give you a rude awakening in the form of a WELL-DESERVED slap across the face! You come off as glib and disaffected by what's probably the biggest issue to women all over the world. Of course the fundamentalist Christians are making "progress" in getting women to obey their husbands, submit to male authority, and worship exclusively the father-GOD ... perhaps you are one of them? "
* stop making things up about me
* SR, for someone who keeps claiming spirituality you sure are abusive.
You don't know me, you don't know my beliefs, you don't know what I know and you don't know my past or my works.
That's why you keep making things up about me.
If you find me so offensive please, feel free to ignore me.
A quote from my own post above, how is this supporting violence? Further, it's revolutionary.
"People rarely need rescuing, all they need is to be empowered and then they can rescue themselves."
I said nothing about younger vs older women and I didn't say that men aren't capable of being as nice and gentle as women.
Your statement about rescuing and empowerment is more in line with the Reagan ideology of throwing them a few scraps and telling them to just help themselves. I do not understand your unfriendly view on rescuing. Even the best and mighty needed rescuing in history. Help must come from within and, when necessary, from outside. The faith based notion that empowering oneself will lead to automatically rescuing oneself from within is a slippery slope towards putting the blame exclusively on the individual when something goes wrong.
I wasn't sure exactly what empowerment Morticia was referring to but I agree that having faith in oneself can go a long ways towards helping and healing. I still believe that both faith in oneself and collective faith are needed.
Well said Katrine.
One of the major tools of oppression, personal and societal, is the psychological abuse of telling people they are not as good as "choose whatever group and insert here" and that they are lacking in skills and intelligence or whatever.
To me removing oppression is the greatest empowerment.
So what can we in the west do for our African sisters?
How about we stop oppression by western imperialism, stop the economic rape of their countries by the west, stop selling them guns, stop aid programs that facilitate inequality
and let's stop being patronising, or should that be 'matronising' (wink)
let's ASK them what they want from us, rather than us telling them what they need
Hi Stanley,
I don't know how you got supply side economics into it
You can have social empowerment without personal empowerment
when the masses are empowered they will 'rescue' themselves <---- that's where I am coming from
I think I see what you are getting at but I sense some kind of a disconnect there. Empowering the masses can mean almost anything. I just get concerned about where they go with the empowerment that is given to them. I understand you are from Australia but here in the USA, too much faith-based this and that just isn't working out well. Australia must have what the USA is lacking at large.
"Salusa was referring to ordinary women and children who have tried to help rescue humanity in softer and gentler ways."
Sorry, been busy all day or I would have been quicker on the draw...
Yes, mostly correct. There are ways to be gentle, but irrepressibly forceful. So, I'm not sure I fully agree with soft.
The thing is, for my whole life, I have been waiting for women to say, 'To Hell with this! I know what I see, and I know what I feel, and I will not go along with this warring, this killing, this false dialog, and this fear ANY more.' When I talk with women, more often than not, and much more often than men, they *get it*, because they feel how wrong what we are doing is...
Of course both men and women can see and feel the wrong. But women's voices and perspectives have been forcibly sidelined by the dominator culture that arose with the advent of metal, cities, exploration and warfare. Their council was placed into societal 'free-speech zones', and their admonitions became a laughable matter to the imperial men of the world who ruled with unbridled violence and the threat of violence. But perhaps that was an inevitable stage of human evolution.
Today, women have the power that modern progress has put into the hands of all people. Communication, the ability to connect, to share – over long distances. To share stories, pictures, secrets, and to discuss what has been largely throughout history, forbidden. Women can film the abuse, document the truth. They can speak out... Yes, many will die for it, many will suffer more. But many will be heard, and some will be heard enough, as in the recent international outrage over the punishments dealt to women in the Middle East, to actually stay the hands of the stone throwers, of the clerics and government officials that are committing crimes against our collective humanity.
This is what must occur. Womens' voices must be heard. Their point of view shared with the world. Their case goes beyond all race and religion. Its in each of our own lives, right here in America, in your hometown. God 'the Father', and all the patriarchal, patriotic nonsense so many Americans adulate and engage in on a daily basis, sideline the opinions and perspectives of women. Its an inherited trait, from thousands of years of indoctrination, but that can be shaken out of us. That can be changed if women stand up and are heard. Stand up, and refuse to sit down.
And I say the children also, because what use are all of the older people who have failed time and time again? What use your models and attitudes? They have all been tried and tried, again and again, and all failed. What is new that has not been tried? That you older people do not know?
To that I say, let the children take new stock. Let them learn from history, but equally learn the how we've propped up the most absurd myths, and called them great truth. Let them reassess pointless destinations, and equally pointless causes that belong in the graveyard of the past. Let them try something naive, but full of integrity, and intent.
Naive cannot be worse than absurd.
I agree with most of what you said. I have faith that women will generally make wise use of whatever power is given to them. Your discussion on women getting power from modern progress and the fact that women are still not being heard loud enough are related. Usually, women are not ready to grab and hastily use whatever power is thrust upon them both out of fear and their soft-hearted nature in general. For example, last month one of my daughters tested positive for pregnancy and I wished them the best of luck in being great parents. My son-in-law, while not a jerk unlike my daughter's first husband now ex, gave an impression that he was anxious to just lead as a father when I told him that he would make a great father. My daughter, on the other hand, cried and kept feeling bad about herself when I told her that she would make one hell of a great mother. With some efforts, I was able to get her to have some self-confidence and stop feeling bad about herself.
This has me thinking that even among the bold and outspoken women, many of them don't really want to have to go through so much trouble having to assert themselves but fear that to not do so will only push them into inferior status. I cannot blame them for they know from history the consequences of women not standing up to sexual discrimination, abuse, you name it.
P.S.: As for the children, I see them as the third party.
I appreciate your well stated comments, and agree with most of what you said as well.
One caveat. As much as I uphold the necessity of balance and the restoration of respect for the feminine perspective, I do not have faith that women always make wise use of whatever power is given to them. Until there is true balance restored, I don't think even that many women ascending to great power will act in ways fully concordant with the feminine perspective. They will continue to serve mens' interests to large degree.
Of course, having more female leaders likely will aid in restoring global balance, so regardless of the above statement, I fully endorse this. Nevertheless, no need, at least on my part, to invoke faith when it comes to trusting someone based on what they have, or don't have in their pants. My trust of an individual comes on a person by person basis, only.
Cheers, to you and your family
Thank you Salusa and cheers to you to. I didn't expect this discussion to get heated overall but I try to keep it fair on my part. I think I made the mistake of allowing my painful memories of the loss of my wife and the near-loss of my niece overwhelm me when my thoughts on this article reminded me of that loss.
It was very difficult for my two daughters as well to lose a sweet nature mother such as my wife. Overwhelmed by her loss, I chose not to marry again but I realized the cost of choosing this route. Nevertheless, I decided to give it my best at being both a mother and father for the remainder of my days of raising them. I was lucky to find a few sweetheart feminists a few blocks away eager to counsel me and my two children. It took years to overcome my anguish but it still keeps coming back at times. Well, it has been 16 years and I have made it. Sometimes, I still don't feel that I was a good parent but I try to keep faith and confidence in myself as I remind myself that at least I tried. How many single mothers and fathers around the world especially in poor nations?
I can never forget that day last year when I saved my niece twice on the same day. I saved her from sexual harassment from her would be date and later that day from nearly committing suicide. She had a lot of passion and heart to recover but her parents and I got worried about her anger and depression with life that had escalated after the horrible day early last year. She has improved and her choosing to leave this country for a few months and later come back has had surprisingly positive effects on her. She is still angrier with the way this nation is a laughing stock and is yet more passionate on reaching out and trying to help convince her locals to think differently on lots of issues including the issue of women.
When I look through countless memories and experiences with women, I often wonder how in the world do most guys not get it that women have longer and more hellish journeys and challenges in life than men. Some of us guys will get it and others won't.
I was moved by your sincere words and post.
Though life can be trying, and present us with irreconcilable sadness at times, your compassionate and connected approach is the key to healing and the return to joyful times.
I sincerely believe that in spite of the shift towards imperialism that has taken place in America, that a counter-shift is also occurring that will bring more of the perspectives we are discussing into being. It is my belief and hope, as much as many here would say these are useless sentiments.
Dear Sabocat:
OR... you could have chosen:
Sarah Moore Grimke
Harriet Tubman
Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Mother Jones
Anna Louis strong
Dorothy Day
And, if you don't know them, they're from a book called SEVEN WOMEN, Portaits from the American Radical Tradition. by Judith Nies ( penguin Books) I just love used bookstores!
These are the minds that inspire souls ( mens' and womens'.) I know that they were living quite a long time ago, but so were all the founders of religions, and so was Eugene Debs. I don't think good ideas ever get old, but sometimes good people do.
What do you mean?
Tell me, do you think Anne Coulter a good example of the expression of the feminine ideal?
Personally I think there is a pretty good reason people call her Man Coulter. Gender and sex are different.
As far as the rest, I applaud their success, and respect their power. What I do not applaud are their actions, nor their moral integrity.
So I still don't understand your point. Why mention them?
They are symbols that women 'have made it'?
Really?
I think expanding our sexual consciousness, and activity, is one of two or three fundamental shifts necessary for us to survive our current condition...
men must grow from penal to penile...
the joys of sexual expression, rather than seen as a low distraction, must be viewed as central to purpose...
our conditioning is so thorough...can we?
All of my hard work, loving vaginas for sixty-two ears, has come to this?
Trylon
Interesting image--"loving vaginas for sixty-two ears". Does that mean you've loved thirty-one vaginas?
Dear Ephraim:
Yes, "ears," well maybe they were Bottom's ears from Midsummer's Nights Eve.
I think that the Greeks and Lysitrata had it right. NO SEX until you stop War, and that means war on the female of the species too.
Oh I'm sorry, that's Midsummer Nights Dream. Although ,Tatania was one strong female character! I do correct myself.
It's just that EVE has been so devalued, that she's on my mind a lot! Oh, and also don't forget that Sophia is the female being that stands for wisdom. That gets overlooked a lot too.
I guess I'm having whatever Trylon had!
narcissistic ejaculations.....wow!
I lived through, as many here have, the attempt to pass the equal rights amendment.Three attempts were made. 40% of men voted to give their wives, sisters, mothers and daughters equal rights and it did not pass.
Certainly not the women, men deify vaginas, at least 40% voted for equality.
Maybe this is about the women?
ABE: Your logic escapes me. Since 40% won't get anything passed, how does that lead to the conclusion that women stood in their own way?
You know, if you keep an animal in a cage for most of its life, you can open the cage door and it may never seek to escape.
Women have been conditioned by numerous overt (as well as covert) cultural, religious, and media cues to defer to men. My generation woke up, and our daughters have a lot of rights they take for granted. Of course if the Christian Theocracy movement manages to take over more political seats, we may see the last vestiges of female reproductive rights--which is to say control over our own bodies--go into an extinction phase.
Only rare males truly understand what is at stake.
"Innana leaned back against the apple tree.
When she leaned against the apple tree, her pussy was wondrous to behold.
Rejoicing at her wondrous pussy, the young woman Inanna applauded herself."
(translated from the Sumerian)
Until those in the monotheist cultures ditch the impotent, delusional female-hating Jehovah/God/Allah and replace him with Innana or Gaia or the Divine Sister and Brother lovers, no amount of talk will change a thing, try as we might.
God hates ladies? LOL, not my God
we are both smiling at your thoughtful reply.
A mere smile totally misunderstood.
Replace Him? No.
Place at His side the other half of the Divine Whole.
Bring His Consort from the closet, out of the darkness, and place Her at Her rightful place, upon a pedestal of no lesser height inside of our admiration. The Left hand to His Right.
The Hindus understand this.
Where is Shiva without Shakti? Vishnu without Lakshmi?
All the classic religions understood this.
The Hebrews once understood this. Sophia was once the wife of Yahweh.
And She is not gone, not dead, only bound, muffled, and hidden... but waiting
and beginning to re-awaken to Her true status as Great Goddess of the Universe.
The longed-for and ever elusive paradigm shift. Agreed.
Nice Amurkan- thanks for the quote. "love my vagina"
Wonderful article, well expressed. Eve Ensler is someone who is not wasting her life. She does not want to "score points" or put down anyone; she wants to liberate women/girls. She does more towards this than most feminists, perhaps in part because she is acting in the world, not in academia, where it's oh-so-postmodern, and there are infinite nits to pick.
Carry it on, sister.
---------------------------------
I would rather vote for what I want and not get it, than vote for what I don't want and get that. -- Eugene V. Debs
A careful reading of this article and the accompanying posts has been enlightening. I can agree with the end result achieved by patterns of belief, doctrine and dogma. The Christian myth starts with Eve and the Apple.
I have an understanding of life that is verified in nature. There is a descending order to life starting with a beginning and descending in a pyramid construction. My understanding leaves me with a supreme intelligence that maintains order in the descending manifestations or iterations of the beginning. The intelligence is without gender but the manifest of the construct is positive and negative and the function of the manifest suggests a male positive.
The discussion and the article purport an equable construct between the male/female species in terms of relationship. I would posit the formation of this construct is the result of negotiation rather than order. Order may be preferable to negotiation to achieve a consistent result.
swelling of a male? Do you mean a raging phallus ? Where is healthy lust in your world view?
I'm not saying love doesn't have a place but what you wrote seems childlike in it's mystification of biological processes.
And what the hell does any of what you wrote have to do with the OP anyway?
Half the problem in Africa is the social, economic and sexual abuse of women facilitated by non western religious belief systems.
The other half is western imperialist interference.
let's have a talk about all the witch trials there
O P means Original Post
the article we are discussing
And of course we agree on many many things.
Though I'm not sure that men envy vaginas any more than women envy penises.
and the witch killings in Africa now
The 'beginning" is beyond the Manifest. The Manifest conforms to finite law and imperfection. The manifest is fed by the spiritual and the order remains descendant.
The unique ability of woman to foster Life is acknowledged yet remains in a descendant order. The "positive" and "negative" in this sense does not embody value, only function.
Eve's piece is great. I did not follow the comments very well. I would just like it to me better known that during humankind's first million years on the planet, women were most highly regarded and respected. They did not use their power position the way men do now. They accepted men as being worthy people. Gathering and hunting peoples even to this day tend to be matriarchal. Dieties come and go but if you want one, She will be a Woman. And like Inanna cited above- sorry i lost who it was- you will love her vagina!
my point is this patriarchal anti woman mode we've been stuck in these 3000 or so years is not human nature and is not the only way it can be
Thank you (profoundly!) to Abuelo, Justice Arcs & Salusa. You guys REALLY get it... for the others, the lack of sensitivity and incapacity to walk in others' moccasins is pitiful. It exposes a complete failure of empathy for half of the human species. I have been over this terrain countless times on these threads, and it's quite clear that some argue FOR their limitations. Indeed by clinging to their covert sexist notions they show no interest in expanding their understanding. I am quite happy to step aside and allow others the "opportunity" to try to spread some enlightenment around. Some has rubbed off on Stanley, to his credit.
The misogyny in others is appalling. What amazes me most is when some of us in this forum speak about equality, a true partnership between the genders... it's interpreted as hatred of men, or some other completely inverted nonsense that misses the points raised altogether. In fact, it's contemptuous for the manner by which it fully attempts (by vicious design) to grant false witness.
Drosera: From your contempt for the very concept of Mother Earth to the unconscious sexism that exists behind your worship of cold, HARD, rational science... if you were in my class on this one, I'd give you an F. You have a deep disregard for the Divine Feminine.
I would not be surprised if some who argue in support of a status quo that has been brutal to women throughout the centuries were not among those that enjoyed watching women burned as witches. Otherwise they carry dark patches of guilt for their own cowardice in having gone along with senseless acts of brutality. Rather than risk their own shadows being brought to light, they continue to argue for the dark side.
I've seen this SICK attitude in this forum in those who attempt to validate the racist policies being practiced by unbalanced authority figures in Arizona. I've seen it used to toss all Jews into the frying pan because of Israel's Mars-ruled policies. I've seen it in ridiculous assertions about violence on the part of women (towards men) whenever the subject is rape, pornography, or the awful fate of those women gang-banged by Blackwater troops in Iraq, or soldiers in Congo. In short, there is a gaping sensitivity deficit on the part of quite a few who post in these threads. And rather than look that ghostly absence in the mirror, they get all glib and talk about Marxism, or find a few examples of women who, for the love of power, have bowed down before the same god of war. Then their egos can rest secure in the knowledge that the status quo is real, and indicative of some inevitable human nature, or "the way of things."
There is such a thing as willful ignorance. Dummies from the Bible Belt who have never been exposed to these arguments have a very different excuse than those shown the Light of Truth; those who still cling to their shadows.
No need to thank, my pleasure!
She hasn't brought me into some 'clique'. I am an independent player, equally willing to 'clique' with anyone here who speaks reason. We're not a tag team.
I believe we can all come together, staying true to our positions – so long as they remain compassionate, and reasonable. There is no need to assume people are here to form schisms. If you are against them, what are you doing to sew the seeds of solidarity?
RE: "those of us whom you deem inimical to your personalized, antedated version of feminism "
What does 'antedated version of feminism' mean? Sounds more like a smear than a real criticism. That's not the way forward.
"The triteness your New Age platitudes are rendered to nothing next to it. I might add that your insistence on the superiority of your own various beliefs closely parallel the more conservative forms of Christianity. "
Also neither necessary, or accurate.
"I sincerely hope you find your own light this holiday season."
That's more the spirit. And I don't disagree, there have been challenges to solidarity coming from all sides. Hopefully, my comments here are not mistaken for more of that.
Cheers and Namaste to you
Thank you Justice, as usual, your words ring true in intent and clarity.
"As far as CD posters ( vs. posers ) is considered, I err or the side of trusting them implicitly, but also carefully gauging their sincerity and authenticity ( as evident in consistency )."
I am willing to err on the side of trust myself, knowing that my perspective is well girded against inculcation from those with ulterior motives.
I've actually known sociopaths in my life. Seen how they act and think close up. That's how I noticed with no confusion how the entire Bush administration worked along sociopathic thought lines. Much of our society has been corrupted by these anti-social memes, so I'm very aware they are out there, capable of coming forward at any time.
Thanks again, and
Namaste
Hi Katrine, and thanks for a well given response.
RE: "Sometimes "feel good" buzzwords -- New Age and otherwise, like truth, light, oneness, hope, change, etc. -- can be and are used in highly self-serving ways. They're also words that for me, communicate little;"
What is important is that you use "sometimes" to begin this point. Yes, sometimes, oftentimes really, religion, and snake-oil spiritualism is used as an opiate of the masses. No doubt. The church (mostly speaking of the long history of the Catholic Church, but meaning also these new-fangled evangelical churches) has a long sordid history of supporting aristocrats and elites. But sometimes these terms, like Oneness, Hope, Change are used in extremely sincere, and effective ways to effect positive change.
When used correctly, they always do.
RE: "I don't think I understand your question about what I'm doing to sow the seeds of solidarity. I really don't know if you mean online solidarity or offline, where it counts the most. Also, solidarity can be good or bad, like schisms."
It counts everywhere, but yes, in the real world it counts the most. But online is part of the real world. And what we say here should be in no contradiction to our other efforts. Why would we do that? (rhetorical question only)
And not sure what you mean in that second sentence. True solidarity (with no falsely implied intent) seems to me a wholly good concept, with no room for negative implication. Similarly, schisms to me almost always represent misunderstanding, and entrenchment of ideas. I find it hard to ever support it.
RE:"I don't want to rehash. No offense intended.
Salusa, I think your queries were in earnest. Thank you for allowing me to clarify in some areas that were needed. Happy holidays."
No offense taken in the least. I find you to be quite reasonable here, and didn't have any real argument with you previous to it (though I am not honestly fully familiar with your p.o.v. on many issues). I too feel your sentiment here is honest, and it is certainly appreciated also.
A very happy holidays to you.
Oh, and btw. 'Happy Holidays' is a spiritual sentiment. Nothing rational about it. True atheists have no reason to ever have 'holidays'.