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TechnoratiWhy We Were Falsely Arrested
ST. PAUL, Minn. - Government crackdowns on journalists are a true threat to democracy. As the Republican National Convention meets in St. Paul, Minn., this week, police are systematically targeting journalists. I was arrested with my two colleagues, "Democracy Now!" producers Sharif Abdel Kouddous and Nicole Salazar, while reporting on the first day of the RNC. I have been wrongly charged with a misdemeanor. My co-workers, who were simply reporting, may be charged with felony riot.
The Democratic and Republican national conventions have become very expensive and protracted acts of political theater, essentially four-day-long advertisements for the major presidential candidates. Outside the fences, they have become major gatherings for grass-roots movements - for people to come, amidst the banners, bunting, flags and confetti, to express the rights enumerated in the Constitution's First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Behind all the patriotic hyperbole that accompanies the conventions, and the thousands of journalists and media workers who arrive to cover the staged events, there are serious violations of the basic right of freedom of the press. Here on the streets of St. Paul, the press is free to report on the official proceedings of the RNC, but not to report on the police violence and mass arrests directed at those who have come to petition their government, to protest.
It was Labor Day, and there was an anti-war march, with a huge turnout, with local families, students, veterans and people from around the country gathered to oppose the war. The protesters greatly outnumbered the Republican delegates.
There was a positive, festive feeling, coupled with a growing anxiety about the course that Hurricane Gustav was taking, and whether New Orleans would be devastated anew. Later in the day, there was a splinter march. The police-clad in full body armor, with helmets, face shields, batons and canisters of pepper spray-charged. They forced marchers, onlookers and working journalists into a nearby parking lot, then surrounded the people and began handcuffing them.
Nicole was videotaping. Her tape of her own violent arrest is chilling. Police in riot gear charged her, yelling, "Get down on your face." You hear her voice, clearly and repeatedly announcing "Press! Press! Where are we supposed to go?" She was trapped between parked cars. The camera drops to the pavement amidst Nicole's screams of pain. Her face was smashed into the pavement, and she was bleeding from the nose, with the heavy officer with a boot or knee on her back. Another officer was pulling on her leg. Sharif was thrown up against the wall and kicked in the chest, and he was bleeding from his arm.
I was at the Xcel Center on the convention floor, interviewing delegates. I had just made it to the Minnesota delegation when I got a call on my cell phone with news that Sharif and Nicole were being bloody arrested, in every sense. Filmmaker Rick Rowley of Big Noise Films and I raced on foot to the scene. Out of breath, we arrived at the parking lot. I went up to the line of riot police and asked to speak to a commanding officer, saying that they had arrested accredited journalists.
Within seconds, they grabbed me, pulled me behind the police line and forcibly twisted my arms behind my back and handcuffed me, the rigid plastic cuffs digging into my wrists. I saw Sharif, his arm bloody, his credentials hanging from his neck. I repeated we were accredited journalists, whereupon a Secret Service agent came over and ripped my convention credential from my neck. I was taken to the St. Paul police garage where cages were set up for protesters. I was charged with obstruction of a peace officer. Nicole and Sharif were taken to jail, facing riot charges.
The attack on and arrest of me and the "Democracy Now!" producers was not an isolated event. A video group called I-Witness Video was raided two days earlier. Another video documentary group, the Glass Bead Collective, was detained, with its computers and video cameras confiscated. On Wednesday, I-Witness Video was again raided, forced out of its office location. When I asked St. Paul Police Chief John Harrington how reporters are to operate in this atmosphere, he suggested, "By embedding reporters in our mobile field force."
On Monday night, hours after we were arrested, after much public outcry, Nicole, Sharif and I were released. That was our Labor Day. It's all in a day's work.
284 Comments so far
Show AllLets pass a law at our City, County, and State levels that require all elected officials to represent their constituents or be removed from office. Representation would be majority of the vote of those the elected official represents.
If the constituents felt they were not being properly represented, they would vote on the issue, and if the majority disagreed with the elected official the official would have to reverse their vote, or signing or whatever action they took to mis-represent their constituents.
A vote of no confidence by the constituents of the duly elected official would be used to remove them from office. No more "four more years" of waiting to vote them out.
No more corporate whores, no more wars of aggression, no more suppression of civil liberties, no more spying on Americans, no more torture, no more renditions, no more BS.
enliven aka Namaste said:
"Perhaps we can agree on something here,"
I think we agree on more things than you know.
"There is a case where that is actually factually correct -- especially when the advance plans that the police know of, are of those of using violent agent provocateurs ( pretending to be demonstrators ) ."
I see very little utility in the use of such "provocateurs" and think it would be counter productive. OTOH, infiltration of groups in oredr to ascertain plans is different.
"It would be stupid to underestimate the politically fueled advantages of making good use of PUNISHING on camera such anarchists ( even of OOoopps, the ones you beat up are the real PEACEFUL demonstrators, while letting the truly violent agent provocateurs, get away scott free )."
Where footage would fail to show that strong methods against "real PEACEFUL demonstrators", I think the strategy backfires.
"There's just so little real justice these days for those that really abuse the public's trust"
I agree with this much.
The purpose that eludes you is that it self-JUSTIFIES the use of
___ extreme police violence against citizens, the
___ "progressive" militarization of local & state police, under fusion centers -- aligned with illegal federal policies
___ leap-frogging violations of "Posse Comitatus", use of National Guard troops against civilians.
___ use advancing use of unconstitutional spying, ( FISA ) search & seizure, and similarly
___ illegal preemptive raids -- to combat illegitimately branded "home grown terrorists".
___ illegal restraints & harassment targeted upon independent news reporters, to repress PROTECTED free speech expression not possible in corporate controlled jacka$$ sewer main stream media.
___ Conning Americans that the demonstrators are ( mostly ) violent anarchists, whose ACTUAL sacrifices are for protection of the public's Constitutional powers being egregiously eroded. The REALITY of protecting OUR collective freedom - is being propagandized and twisted to represent exactly the opposite - to further the trend toward FASCISM ( corpoRAPE profiteering & warmongering ).
__ This country implicitly & explicitly, has stood for protection of the innocence ( until PROVEN guilty ) and Soverign Inalienable human rights -- and to deconstruct that is CRIMINAL
__ the protected right of dissent and presenting the gov't with justified points needing REDRESS, is now progressively being precluded through a conspiracy of corpoRAPE control ( bribery + ) of most political candidates & media. This then leaves VISIBLE DEMONSTRATIONS in places where the media will of necessity be -- as the last strands left available for MANDATORY public power sharing and participatory democracy.
Namaste
"The purpose that eludes you..."
The use of planted provocateurs? I don't support it, and doubt if it necessarily leads to everything you list.
_ S.o.r.r.y _, but your taxpayer status says that
___ y.o.u _ d.o ( & _ d.i.d ) _ s.u.p.p.o.r.t _ i.t.
These are chinks in the illusion, that we can see through. Of course VERY significant & costly efforts have been made to cover up the crimes, which I'm sure that you do know is another crime in itself.
The ultimate truth and consistency of the facts is purposely misdirected and interspersed with much dubious propaganda, false information, and very carefully planting of divisive points of view to preoccupy conspiracy theorists galore.
Just look at __ J F K _ & _ M L K ' s __ assassinations, the later being a better indication of proven ( in a court of law ) gov't conspiracy ( false witnesses & evidence, paid by FBI … etc ).
The amount of evidence that now links Iran-Contra, to October surprise Repuke_lican Coup d'état ( delay of release of Iranian Banks funds, until after Raygun's S[tolen]_election ), when coupled to thievery of '00 & '04 elections is massive ( beyond a reasonable doubt ).
Namaste
"_ S.o.r.r.y _, but your taxpayer status says that
___ y.o.u _ d.o ( & _ d.i.d ) _ s.u.p.p.o.r.t _ i.t."
Your's too. Unless you are a tax scofflaw. I was speaking from a personal view of course.
Sloganeering opportunity: The government takes *your* money and spends it the way *they* wish.
Well this appears to be a breakthrough for you, to acknowledge this.
Of course the "they", really isn't the gov't'$ "free" choice -- as they spend that money exactly the way that the gobblist global bankers and boards of directors of corpoRAPE America figure is BEST, which will net them the highest profit, power, control, and longest chance to reign supreme.
I on the other hand, never had any doubts about what the collective and psychopathic criminals in gov't and globalist headquarters are capable of.
Even our centuries old Presidents like ( Thomas Jefferson ), and particularly Andrew Jackson -- considered his successful beating down the international bankers his most important life's work.
As similarly, Lincoln would likely gravely have said, had he also avoided the Rothschild's assassins ( as had Jackson ). No doubt the stark reality of JFK's assassination, for actually doing similar -- by disemboweling central banker's profiteering of MIC spending & deficits -- places the historical onus in perspective.
So if this is stipulated, why on Earth do you oppose aligning with the preponderance of evidence, which shows beyond any reasonabel doubt -- what happened nearly 7 years ago, on 9_!_! ?
It's way beyond a truth commission, it's way beyond simple treason -- the widespread illegalities are nearly impossible to fully characterize, and the graduations of culpability between war criminals murdering, and mere thieves and extortionists is astronomical.
If the global economy's heart must be ripped from the dying body of international bankers, I say it's about time, and we all will immediately begin to profit from it's demise -- even if at first there are some upsets along the way.
Doing as South Africans did, by granting blanket immunity to those confessing ( for a short amnesty period ) -- the balancing act of survival and justice can we orchestrated. Some criminals of lower rank would avoid the consequences of their acts, but that price is "priceless" towards the life sentence convictions, upon those higher ups.
Namaste
"Well this appears to be a breakthrough for you, to acknowledge this."
It never came up. I would expected that you would have given me the benifit of the doubt, having not discussed it.
"I on the other hand, never had any doubts about what the collective and psychopathic criminals in gov't and globalist headquarters are capable of."
And while you may or may not be right about that capability, it's different from what they actually have done.
"why on Earth do you oppose aligning with the preponderance of evidence, which shows beyond any reasonabel doubt -- what happened nearly 7 years ago, on 9_!_! ?"
First, I am "in denial" on much of that specific evidence offered. So much of it doesn't stand up to examination. Molten steel.
Second, The disturbing and annoying pattern of ignoring debunking arguments while just repeating the original debunked arguments.
Third, while the official story has some problems, the imaginative convolutions required for the alternates to be true make them much more difficult to believe.
This is all I intend to say about it in this thread.
Quoting from the following article by Patrick Martin, entitled "McCain Launches Fall Campaign as Obama Embraces Iraq 'Surge'” --
"The most important factor propping up both the Bush administration and the Republican presidential campaign is the complicity and cowardice of the Democratic Party. McCain’s claim to be leading an insurgency against the government of his own party is undoubtedly preposterous, but he is able to adopt this posture with at least a fig leaf of credibility because the Democratic Party does not fulfill the role of an 'opposition' party in any serious sense.
"Obama’s performance Thursday on Fox television’s 'The O’Reilly Factor' was a case in point. After winning the Democratic nomination in large measure because of his purported opposition to the war in Iraq, Obama has sought repeatedly to demonstrate to the US political establishment that he can be a credible commander in chief for American imperialism.
"He told O’Reilly that he 'absolutely' believed that the United States was engaged in a worldwide war against terrorism, including not only Al Qaeda and the Taliban, but 'a whole host of networks that are bent on attacking America who have a distorted ideology.'
"Obama described Iran as a 'major threat,' and said it would be 'unacceptable' to an Obama administration for Iran to possess nuclear weapons. 'It would be a game-changer,' he said, adding, 'I would never take a military option off the table.' He called for a more aggressive military posture towards Pakistan, the day after a major US military strike within that country.
"But his starkest reversal came on Iraq, as O’Reilly pressed him to admit that the Bush administration’s troop 'surge,' the escalation of the war by the addition of some 30,000 US combat troops, had been a success. Obama has sought to dance around the issue for months, but he finally embraced the surge emphatically on Thursday.
"'I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated,' he said, adding, 'It’s succeeded beyond our wildest dreams.' This demonstrates not only Obama’s cringing submission to the pressure of the right wing, but a staggering degree of political blindness. Like Bush, Cheney, McCain and the rest of official Washington, Obama truly believes that US imperialism can, by military force alone, impose its will on the world. His only disagreement is with the Bush administration’s obsessive focus on Iraq, which Obama and many other spokesmen for the military and foreign policy establishment believe has undermined US interests in other parts of the globe.
"The Democratic Party is a capitalist party that defends the same social interests as the Republicans—the massive fortunes of the superrich financial aristocracy which is the real ruling force in American society. The Democrats play a specific role in the political division of labor: while the Republicans consistently and unabashedly uphold the rights of the wealthy, the Democrats pretend to represent working people, while ensuring that there is no challenge from below to the profit system.
"This division of labor explains the half-hearted and spineless performance of the Democrats in the current presidential campaign. Obama, Biden & Co. are at pains to demonstrate that they will make no appeal to mass discontent that goes beyond what is acceptable to the ruling elite. The Democrats offer their services to the financial oligarchy to win at least a certain degree of mass support for the reactionary program that both parties fundamentally share."
Click here for the entire article -- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/mcca-s06.shtml
Interesting arguments all around. And good passion evident in all your posts.
But some things in this country never change:
• King George and his Barons always want more power and poorer subjects to reign over.
• Redcoats only see things from an enforcement perspective, and defend their bloody massacres as "legal" and proper no matter how atrocious their fellow Beefeaters behave.
• The people will always have a substantial portion of the population remain "Loyalist" to the Crown; and actively inform on those damn "rebels" or troublemakers; so trolls are to be expected.
• Taxation without representation (only big corps are represented in today's gov) will result in "Boston Tea Party" events sooner or later. So don't put down those black-masked anarchists or those store rock-throwing urchins; because they are on the side of Liberty. They are on the side of Democracy. Even those gun wielding WACOs or those Oklahoma City nuts were on the side of Freedom from an oppressive, overbearing government with no hope of being reformed. They just ran into it sooner than the rest of us did. Each year the government gets bigger and meaner, and ultimately will have us all in irons if we don't do something about it.
In our ancestor's day, they boarded a Mayflower and fled to the developing world to escape mindless tyranny like in Minneapolis or Old England. I suggest you all do the same. Before property values crash any lower, dump your house and move out to the islands.
Yes, there is a life after the freeway and the shopping mall. In a country that has revolutions every ten years; where the government is afraid of the people; not like in the U.S. where the people are afraid of the government. Right now I'm watching the most gorgeous spectacular sunset over the ocean..... no cops, no nannystate, and who needs a car?
How did that go? "Tune in, Turn on and Drop out!" (The 1960's Boycott Battlecry!) Maybe there was something to all that hippie stuff after all. Walmart hasn't gotten any money from me in over three years. I eat strange tropical non-GMO fruit and vegetables grown in natural volcanic soil. And most of it is free. We can win the war against tyranny fueled by consumerism if we try.
Many of you, I fear, however, are still trapped in the Old World NeoCon Matrix. It is not the Matrix that must bend; it is you who must free yourselves from it's trappings. Impossible, you say?
If you say so.
The colonist had the same trouble convincing their neighbors to boycott not only tea, but all domestic things made in Britain, which was just about everything back then. John Adams wife found it particularly stressful to live without any common household items whatsoever.
Regardless of where we are, or what methods we deploy, we free men all have our role to play in defending the Bill of Rights.
Ben Franklin The First American
The email of the police chief of St Paul is john.harrington@ci.stpaul.mn.us , in case anyone wants to complain.
UNENDED & ENLIVEN: Good work taking the wind out of Jake's ill-placed sails.
He's the N'eveready battery of abuse and assault.
( the suckered bunny says, NO funny )
Namaste
"He's the..."
Whatever. You always want to talk about me rather than the topic. You're better off just ignoring me if you don't want to address the issue.
¿ I always do … ( what ) with you ?
____ bu$h!t ____
Your pathetic exaggerations to play into your idea of a 'fair play', is out of bounds with reality. Your losing in dozens of detailed "reasonable" interchanges, where I have often disemboweled your "truth", can not be abused with your unreasonable memory of times past.
Your telling me how I'm better off by ignoring you is completely founded in the quicksand of your reality, which only temporarily holds any issue up for long.
As far as it being about your 'position on a topic', or about your caricature -- I've answered that on numerous occasions, which you too conveniently forget about -- to support your polished agenda and clever packaging of opinion.
Your even refer to it as "rather than the topic", as if your position and beliefs were explicitly stated, instead of corrosively exposed in the remnants of progressive thinking, being reduced to neoCON slogans.
You are absurdly deluded, if you continue to represent your view of "the issue" as if that were the only one possible, and that you control the proper manner of "addressing" it.
Namaste
"Your pathetic exaggerations to play into your idea of a 'fair play', is out of bounds with reality."
How can insisting that one stick to the facts associated with a topic be considered an exaggeration of any kind?
"Your losing in dozens of detailed "reasonable" interchanges, where I have often disemboweled your "truth","
You may not be surprised to hear that I can't think of a single case of this. In fact, I think *you* have learned a few modest things, such as what the term "molten" really means.
"Your telling me how I'm better off by ignoring you "
This is nothing more than what *you* have unreasonably urged others to do here. I am simply suggesting you take your own advice if you are going to avoid the topic under discussion with references instead to who or what you think the participants are.
"As far as it being about your 'position on a topic', or about your caricature -- I've answered that on numerous occasions,"
Yes yes, I am "paid by the Neocons".
"to support your polished agenda and clever packaging of opinion."
Yet again another attempt to mischaracterize the discussion of fact. Questioning the agenda or motive of a participant has no bearing whatsoever on the veracity of comments made by participants about a topic. This has got to be the tenth time I've had to explain this to you.
"progressive thinking, being reduced to neoCON slogans."
Examining a video for the factual evidence it provides and discussing that in the context of a topic has absolutely no resemblance to sloganeering. You are completely of base here. I "never" provide slogans in my posts.
"You are absurdly deluded, if you continue to represent your view of "the issue" as if that were the only one possible,"
This is comment would be much better directed at others here, who seem to think that if you even suggest that the police in St. Louis were anything other than armed thugs, or that the protesters there were anything other than angelic, righteous, and innocent in all ways, that you are a fascist. OTOH, I have specifically tempered some of my remarks here with phrases similar to "I could be wrong" or "it's impossible to know for sure".
You are a smart guy, how can you post stuff like this?
Perhaps the impressionable marks upon a pre-teen seeing heads being cracked open while being gassed at DNC in '68 ?
Having the jack-booted iron heel upon your own neck, or someone you love, just might change your point of view.
If fascism ( protecting US from illusionary FEARS of Muslim terrorism ) is the question, then LOVE is the answer -- not what we see in the conventions.
How are you personally going to adapt to the encroachment of your own rights, in our society's grave lock-step march toward a police state ? Denial isn't very effective.
Namaste
"Having the jack-booted iron heel upon your own neck, or someone you love, just might change your point of view."
Yes it might, and one could understand if as a result everything seen now resembles a jack-boot but that doesn't mean that point of view is right.
I agree, that what I see is likely only part of the story. What's potentially worse is that what we've been able to see and perceive :
__ is likely to be later shown to be a poor representation
__ of how bad it really is, underneath.
Namaste
"I agree, that what I see is likely only part of the story. "
Great, we agree on something. Same for me and everyone else.
"is likely to be later shown to be a poor representation "
Yes, of course that will sometimes be true.
Hang in there Jake. You have to simply disengage from the flamers. There's no winning with them. Engaging them gives them fuel, the signal that they are getting somewhere. Reasonable people will always support those who call for reasonableness. Trust that you've got that right. I don't know you, but I know that much about you.
Thanks. I think it's reasonable to look at facts. That's basically all I do here. In this case, we have a video vs. claims made in an article.
A R B Y,
Usually it is appreciated ( by ALL ) for those willing to apply calming words, that often can edge the discussion back into productive discourse. Thank you for attempting to heal what you see as a problem, although the long history here is likely outside of your experience.
Nonetheless I'm truly sorry to observe that your comments miss the underlying point, especially about which direction the flames are more likely to be moving and why.
When you say "Reasonable people will always support those who call for reasonableness," that assumes a degree of authenticity on both parties. This is an excellent starting point, which time will tell if appropriate.
Superficial and plausible reasonableness is cut from a cloth of deceit and ulterior purpose, that you either have easy access to -- or are repelled by it.
I don't know you, but now have less reason to either ( it's not plausible you're new to the planet nor that above was the first you've ever read of JAKE ). Your subtle words have no power on me, not the falsely aggrandized associations of JAKE being on the side of the angels, or of his being reasonable NOR that there is any trust deserved.
"Reasonable" people do not AUTOMATICALLY assume that the police are fine, upstanding, courageous, and honorable in what ever they chose to do ( and that everyone gets what they deserved ) -- that is what fearful and terrorized subservient people feel ( w/o thinking ) about authority -- and the reason this thread is quite feisty.
Namaste
"Superficial and plausible reasonableness is cut from a cloth of deceit and ulterior purpose,"
Why would it be that the examination of the specific facts of a topic be superficial or deceitful?
""Reasonable" people do not AUTOMATICALLY assume that the police are fine, upstanding, courageous, and honorable in what ever they chose to do "
You can't possibly conclude from anything I have ever said that I assume the above. In fact, I think there are plenty of problems with police globally and on the individual level. I have not been discussing that here.
A carefully SELECTED deconstructed pattern of specific facts that overall PAINTS a false picture of REALITY, is deceitful -- and is an attempt to shift the weight of actual gov'tal blame upon the victims of abuse OR anywhere else other than where it belongs.
One cannot argue for thousands of specific facts that consistently paint a picture in justification for corpoRAPISM -- and escape the REALITY of the collective image being constructed and foisted here.
As far as my point about your ( implicit ) assumption of angelic predisposition of police, you consistently paint the opposite picture of the demonstrators themselves justifying the police abuse, which is essentially the same idea ( in reverse -- figure / ground reversal ) -- exactly as I have suggested is your favored stickt and method of madness.
Namaste
"A carefully SELECTED deconstructed pattern of specific facts that overall PAINTS a false picture of REALITY, is deceitful"
Regarding the current incident, as an example. Approaching 300 posts and no one has yet even disputed the fact that Goodman ignored several orders to move to the sidewalk. Only one suggestion that the orders were unlawful somehow that I was able to counter given that police are empowered to place certain areas of public property off limits from time to time. How are these facts, so very central to the article under discussion, constitute "carefully SELECTED deconstructed pattern of specific facts that overall PAINTS a false picture of REALITY"?
"you consistently paint the opposite picture of the demonstrators themselves justifying the police abuse,"
I have only commented on Goodman and some demonstrators that broke windows and slashed tires. Demonstrators who peacefully chant slogans or hold signs or whatever I have no problem with and I am sure there were thousands like these.
Not a chance.
Here's local a local Twin City TV news story (NBC station KARE) about a cameraman being caught up in a demonstration of people who had no permit to march. He was arrested.
(ok I promise to reserve comment)
You make the call.
http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=81947
Thank you Amy, for not letting anger, vile, or hatred overcome your reaction to the arrest. I watched the video, and, I could not believe this was happening!
I am now going to go in over my head financially, donating to any and all Democratic candidates who are running against this fascist government.
WELCOME TO CHINA AMY GOODMAN!!! I guess when they bought our loans they also bought our freedom
We need to talk with each other, even if we disagree. Heck, half the time I have two or more different opinions fighting it out within myself. Critical posts from others are very helpful.
BUT I have regretfully concluded that it is a total waste of time to respond to jakenewton.
Joe
First they beat up the anarchist videographers. I wasn't an anarchist.
Then they beat up Amy Goodman and her camera crew. I wasn't a strong liberal.
Then, well I'm on deadline and my boss pays me not to think about the horrid ending to this story, so I'll just go cover the dog show.
Unfortunately, i have to agree with tetti tatti. To expand on the cancer metaphor, one can be constructive and have great ideas all day long, but when a cancer has been spreading unfettered for too long, there eventually is a point of no return.
The american zeitgeist is a cancerous theology of greed and selfishness. I believe a critical mass is about to be reached. The ONLY sign of an end to this trend is the decline of the fuel supply (ie the ability to perpetuate the cancer).
Oil (the vehicle by which america has been able to spread its philosophical cancer across the globe) has peaked and daily global oil production has flatlined and will soon start to decline. Most experts think we'll be totally out of (net energy gain) oil by 2050. The period between now and then will mark a rapid decline of the spread of americancer.
The inevitability of the decline of cheap, abundant oil is the chemotherapy that will eradicate the poisoned ideals of america.
But we're still gonna need pro-active people with good ideas about society after the oil era, so don't give up!
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
To Gregdevious: There are too many suffering people and animals, too many ancient and biodiverse habitats being obliterated, and the global biosphere is too close to becoming uninhabitable for billions of human beings to pretend that humanity can wait another 40 years for the downside of peak oil before mass positive progressive change can occur in the U.S. and abroad. The pace of human events and technology won't allow it either. I have no doubt that other nations have already quietly embarked on that change and they will leave the increasingly isolated and internationally shunned U.S. to its own barbaric devices if we continue to regress too much longer.
Russia and China are already taking those steps with regard to Amurka's "full spectrum dominance" pretension that we can endlessly militarily dominate the entire planet. The Europeans and Japanese are leaving us behind in terms of green technologies and renewable energy subsidies and implementation plans.
Consider the changes that occurred in the 20th century over a similar span of time from 1908 (still the tail end of the age of agriculture, kings, czars and kaisers) to 1950 (already into the nuclear Cold War, the advent of the Space Age and spreading global industrialization). For all we know now, some populations of human beings may have to genetically alter themselves or, to an as yet unknown degree, robotize themselves to survive conditions after 2050 and the human genome is already being tinkered with in unknown ways. Any number of predictable and unpredictable things will transpire. Catalysts to historical change are seldom well understood until deep into or after the processes they accelerate.
Our jobs as true progressives is to confront the challenging tasks and difficult ideas now, so that our ruling classes and the high-technologies they play God with don't leave the rest of society's collective moral, spiritual, emotional and intellectual capacity to understand let alone cope with them so far behind that the entire planet is reduced to slavery under post-industrial Malthusian hot-house hell conditions.
To WTF who said, "...before we can deal with these issues (as you suggest, offer positive constructs), we must first accept that they exist. I contend that the majority of Americans are in denial: 'It can't happen here - this is America, Land of the Free'. Truth hurts, and the only way to implement change is when the majority hurts."
I reply that we must constantly refine and offer up positive constructs whether or not others can yet accept that the issues they address exist. That is part of the educational process for the deniers. There are always some listeners whose minds are opened and one of them may be a key thinker or entrepreneur whose ideas become critical to rapid change. IBM and Bill Gates is a perfect example of this. In the old IBM mainframe-centric culture the idea of desktop PCs was considered insignificant to the point of laughable. A few of the lower-downs tried to shop some of the source code that later became a true graphical user interface to a couple of computer geeks and the wife of the couple they wanted to offer it to hesitated to take the deal (of the century) because her hubby wasn't there to make the decision with her. The transaction cost was something like $50K at the time. Next on the list was Bill Gates. I didn't own a computer 10 years ago. It would be difficult to do without one now.
Yet it is also true that the U.S. middle-class had to simultaneously face a Great Depression and World War II for profound social change to take place in the first half of the 20th century. Very similar conditions are upon us now and they won't take 40 years to unfold, I guarantee you that.
Ted Nordhaus and his "positive environmentalist" ideas have pointed out that the environmental movement probably would have already been much more a part of the American mainstream by now if environmentalists hadn't for 3 decades always relied upon descriptions of the negative outcomes of environmental degradation but, instead, had researched and developed sustainable planning scenarios for positive outcomes that highlighted all the positive health-related and economic effects of transition to a green economy. I wholeheartedly agree. Part of this is the gap that has to be leaped between pure science and truly green engineering and idea "marketing." There are tremendous opportunities in those areas for the people in the right place at the right time with the right ideas who can "bump it with a trumpet." The time is NOW.
Oh God thanks gregdevious! I was wondering what to do about the whole messy fascist state growing up around us, and now I see that all I've got to do is wait for the oil to run out...
Brilliant! Only wait, what about all the carbon we put into the air---or the stifling effect on free thought for 40 years---or a free press---
rarely do posts piss me off more than yours has---but I'm trying to remain calm
I agree with t-t about many of the problems. I am often frightened and despondent about our country and about the condition of the earth.
I do not agree with ignoring every strength and every good thing left here.
If you see no strength, no possibilities, then what do you do? The logical answer is to stop eating and drinking and just lay down and die.
Despair is not new. Keats was a surgeon's assistant and lived in depressing time among the poor in London. The poor were stuffed in disease and crime ridden cities, London was the center of a cruel empire machine... Still this is what he said
Spite of despondence, of the inhuman dearth
Of noble natures, of the gloomy days,
Of all the unhealthy and o'er-darken'd ways
Made for our searching: yes, in spite of all,
Some shape of beauty moves away the pall
From our dark spirits...
The courage and intelligence of people such as Amy Goodman and others is a "shape of beauty". And there are a lot of other people, not well known who have compassion and honesty. Shall we abandom them or join with them?
Sure, you must know what you are up against, but look for the possibilities too. Fear and despair are paralyzing.
Joe
Gandhi had it right. If tens of thousands or maybe hundreds of thousands of people just sit down in the streets, what can they do?
The Olympics taught us about what they 'would like' to do. American, and other corporations participated with the Chinese government in the construction of it's Golden Shield, namely a security/ surveillance network that it wants to use to completely control it's citizens, to make the country safe for capitalists. I can't say whether that project is finished, but by all accounts much of it was tested and did well. First world corporations, as Naomi Klein and others have reported, are watching closely. They've had a hard time implementing just parts of such a network here, due to the hindersome rights we have gained over time. But that doesn't mean that they wouldn't like to go whole hog and do capitalism the way the Chinese are doing it. Klein points out that they see the Chinese approach as a superior way to deliver capitalism.
This is not a joke. And the time to care about the catastrophe is 'before' it happens, not 'after'.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
To tetti_tatti: Your posts are more free of any constructive criticism or ideas for positive change than any other poster I've read on this site. Do you have ANY ideas for building a better society in America or elsewhere? If not, then why do you endlessly repeat your "no hope" commentary? Do you think your terminal nihilism bears such tedious repetition? Condemning an entire nation of people as complex and multi-cultural as the U.S. using such broad generalizations as you routinely employ is a sign of your own intellectual weakness. It's simple to sit on your ass and condemn. It's much more difficult to build something positive--but it's also much more fun. You meet better people and get out of the house more and burn more calories. Maybe that's what you need as much as so many of my fellow Amurkans. Many of the problems that exist in America exist elsewhere in places like Europe, India and China. Perhaps you can help people in those countries build a better society since you loathe all Americans so much. I'd like to hear one good organizing or policy platform idea from you that isn't dripping with sarcasm or contempt.
metal I know, truth hurts. But please don't attack the messenger because you don't like the message. That's typical of people with no real arguments.
Well, I have to agree with tetti_tatti. But before we can deal with these issues (as you suggest, offer positive constructs), we must first accept that they exist. I contend that the majority of Americans are in denial: "It can't happen here - this is America, Land of the Free". Truth hurts, and the only way to implement change is when the majority hurts.
My niece spent last night running the "Free Clinic" in downtown St. Paul, they spent most of the night rinsing pepper spray out of protesters eyes. More to come, but so far it isn't pretty.......
"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization." Georges Clemenceau
The US is rotten and Goodman's arrest is merely a reflection of the cancerous state of America today. American society is corrupt with greed, driven to irreversible decline by its thirst for profit.
Let’s not forget that 95% of the world serial killers live in America, the US is the world’s greatest polluter, the greatest consumer of illegal drugs, the greatest exporter of arms, the greatest sponsor and financier of terror and guerrilla, the most brutal imperial force in history, not to mention the fattest, the least educated and the most sexually repressed (and repressing) nation in the developed world.
Such environment is perfect breeding ground for bacteria and superbugs like Bush and Cheney, products of Americans. Let’s not be so surprised they exist.
The whole place needs to be condemned and the pests exterminated, there isn’t any hope, sorry.
It needs a bit of work my friend. It's not just the gloominess. I'm a gloomy guy too.
Like has been said before the far right can't face and don't want to face the truth. Control is the top of their list at all costs.
Javier:/ Siouxrose
I asked one time who on all of CD has been on a protest Siouxrose and one other person said they had. Protests I feel don't make a change but get the word out to others. The neo media turns anything left wing into violence such as protests. BUT the neocon right are by far the most violent people on the earth. I have asked for I don't know how long for one person to stand up and make change. I have even said Americans are guttless cowards who are great at following someone else.
So what do we have left in America? Protests don't bring change because the people we are protesting have their own task masters to answer to NOT the people who voted for them. The Voting booth is now a place that most feel can't be trusted. The GOV does what it wants to destroy the environment so it can get more oil for the auto industry that produces a car that eats gas like candy. Start wars to change elected leaders so they hate demorcracy. Don't do as the voters have asked at home again the main part of democracy. So what the hell do you have in America? Sheep and a few rams but not enough rams ( even female rams) to make a change that is within the law of the land. So...............
The far right doesn't care about truth one way or the other, except as it can be a vehicle for the continuous accumulation of power and control. Someone pretty much let that cat out of the bag back in 2004 when a Bush administration official referred to the "reality-based community."
"So what do we have left in America?"
We have a long and difficult job of civilization, but the right thing to do remains the right thing to do whether easy or hard.
I heard tonight on Pacifica radio that Rick and Nicole were arrested.
So the outrage continues.
What a disgrace. Police departments nationwide must be defunded. Let's take the police budget and use it to house the homeless, to feed those without means.
It's better to have no police force at all than this one, that can't follow the Constitution.
-TIA
"Why We Were Falsely Arrested"
Because America has turned into a fascist state. I thought you knew that.
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
Whether you participate in or stand up to or do nothing about over-concentrated power there is a price. I think the prevailing powers in the U.S. and their ~60 million (plus?) fear-driven dupes who are programmed to cling to the false security of an increasingly heartless and massive Police/Surveillance Nanny State (which is costing us billions of wasted dollars, btw) are pushing the country to a position that makes peaceful protest and peaceful progressive change harder and harder. Just like dealing with global warming, the longer we delay the necessary organizing and reforms, the uglier it will get until it may be past redemption.
I think the rest of the global community may wait until our overextended empire reaches a certain economic crumbling point and simply take a different path: Construct a different global commonwealth where the U.S. is treated as a fading pariah--a monster of technologically soulless laissez-faire capitalism gone horribly wrong.
This coming election, I believe, is the Dems' last chance to show they can both win and practice good governance as a ruling majority. If they gain solid voting control of both Houses and the White House, then the situation is theirs to make good on or screw up. Within 3 months of an Obama win we will know.
At that point, progressives face some key challenges:
(1) The critically urgent need to rapidly assemble one unified Progressive Party out of all the many progressive organizations. This will require a national progressive leadership summit.
(2) Agreement upon 3 to 5 core platform planks with which they can simultaneously campaign and educate the public. They need to build an over-arching narrative that is adaptable to new green ideas and technologies and, by its very force of common sense and readily accessible fact, will overwhelm inferior ideologies now wrecking the country and the planet.
(3) A national progressive task force appointed by the leadership to tackle the specific task of figuring out how to (A) use non-violent tactics that compel more attention from the "mainstream media" to our ideas, and (B) gain access to mass media platforms like combined low power FM and website streams, satellite radio and other new communications technology platforms.
(4) Such a movement must have, in my opinion--as major selling point--a publicly accessible, online "green living" knowledge base featuring outstanding progressives who have gained expertise in creative ways to live an environmentally sustainable life from which most of the masses can choose some aspects to emulate. I'm talking every aspect of green living from architecture to semi-grid or off-grid energy systems, gardening (rural to urban), transportation, creative & thrifty crafts and happier, healthier, more independent and less voraciously and unquestioningly materialistic family living. And these green experts should contribute essays, videos, etc., SHOWING others the HOW TO aspects of this for free--subsidized by online donations to the Party (and ads from green companies whose products are featured) until enough of us can get elected to write legislation to create large government subsidies both for the educational and wide-scale public implementation aspects of this. You've probably seen PBS This Old House. Think "This Old Planet" with realistic start-to-finish projects for green living demonstrated by the experts--with interspersed discussions of Party platform proposals to support the broad implementation of these ideas with serious government subsidies.
(5) A unified Progressive Party should disseminate free to all its members information with bullet points and clear sources regarding the numerous studies (some well over ten years old) that resoundingly prove the economic benefits of transitioning to a green economy in terms of rebuilding the middle class. All serious progressives should thoroughly familiarize themselves with these studies and be ready to answer any Republican or Democratic back-sliders who continue to insist on the prevailing yet failing national and global fossil energy paradigm.
(6) Reform of the court system at all levels in the U.S. Appointing better judges, reforming and systematizing the divergent State methods for electing vs. appointing judges.
(7) Repeal of the 1990's Rehnquist Supreme Court decision that equates money with free speech for the purposes of political campaigns.
(8) The need for new corporate reform legislation that denies corporations the same rights as living, flesh and blood citizens and restores them to their pre-1880s legal status as legal compacts issued licenses that are subject to periodic local governmental review (now the multinationals would need State and/or national reviews as well) regarding their social conduct and their license to conduct business.
This would be a start on the domestic end of things. This is the kind of hard work and organization progressives need to already be strategizing and there is PUH-LENTY of work to do. I think a lot of people would be living much happier and more fulfilling lives being part of such a movement. This is a movement that entire families could participate in together--whereas the current dominant Parties are only truly participated in by corporate lobbyists and hack politicians.
Sign me up. This is the best post I think I've ever read on CD---excellent ideas with a practical outline for success. Thanks metal. I'm going to copy this down and leave it on my blog... I hope you keep posting on these ideas.
The pigs are back in force. They have infiltrated the peace groups, & they are now working together in fusion meetings. The pigs are back in force. In some parts of the country they were never weakened. And now what ought to happen is the group of people who were arrested should file a class action lawsuit against the city and against the RNC for thirty to forty million dollars. Use up the 10 million insurance fast & furious so that no other city will be able to purchase insurance to beat, intimidate, & arrest citizens. And now that we know the pigs are infiltrating a variety of groups, we need to organize into a tightly knit cabal of groups to thwart the pigs & their fucking moles. More cameras may be needed. And more distractions to thwart the surreptitious actions of all the pigs--the pigs in the FBI, the pigs in the NSA, the pigs in the CIA, the pigs in the local pig department. Do it legally; thwart them legally & in the open, but thwart them.
With so many photos of agent provocateurs ( I mean anarchists ) breaking windows and slashing tires -- wouldn't it just be great if a few of them actually ever "get" to be tried in a court of law ?
I believe strongly that these events speak to the conspiratorial use of criminal agitation ( aka gov't entrapment and pro-active violence against Americans ) and that this is a new level of illegal suppression of constitutionally protected political dissent.
GiGo -- garbage in garbage out
Did all of the real "bad" guys somehow get away, in spite of all of the massive surveillance and recordings -- or did they just get released because they were on the gov't payroll ?
Namaste « Presence »
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world » — Gandhi
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed » — Gandhi
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — ML King
Important questions. Paid thugs running around in the street smashing things and causing chaos is by now a classic tactic to turn the public against progressive movements. There is a great description in "All The Shah's Men" of how it was (first?) used to overthrow Mossadegh in Iran.
I have known one actual anarchist in my life. He was a profesional gardener and his behavior was more St. Francis of Assisi than Clockwork Orange. So beware of labels and stereotypes.
Joe
Thank you __ J O E __
It amusing to me that your phrase "p.a.i.d _ t.h.u.g.s" applies equally well to both:
__ violent demonstrators
__ ( agent provocateurs ), &
__ the police themselves
__ ( federally incited militarization )
Namaste
ordinary man
I hear jackboots - again and again and again... "all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing..."
Why are so few doing anything, whilst so many seem to soak it all up and just accept what's happening?
jakenewton is of the ilk that hi-jack an issue by hairsplitting.
slowly the discussion drifts from the constitutional right to free assembly unencumbered by police tactics, to a pissing contest in semantics and armchair lawyering over trivial and silly points far from the original gist of the conversation...
trolls can be as polite as they are destructive and misleading, and using the broad brush of generalities i say he, j'n, probably has that smarmy little smile on his face the whole time, you know the smile,,, G wanker uses it all the time.
"jakenewton is of the ilk that hi-jack an issue by hairsplitting."
Evaluating whether Goodman's behaviour was legal or not "hairsplitting". In fact, it directly relates to the headline given this article.
Perhaps his buddies at NIST, have provided him another new
__ weapon of TERROR
( more powerful than nano-thermites )
__ nano-hair-splitting
Namaste
"Defend the rights of the oppressed" John McCain, nomination acceptance speech 9-4-08
While protestors were being arrested outside, and demonstrators were dragged out of the hall to the fascist chant of USA---USA---USA. Concussion grenades, and tear gas... Nice juxtaposition.
"demonstrators were dragged out of the hall "
They had absolutely no right to demonstrate in the hall.
but we have every right to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians
By changing the subject I take it you agree with my point. Good.
try to tie the two subjects together
'Hope springs eternally … "
Namaste
Ms. Goodman as put life on the line too get the truth out in the past.. What happened in St.Paul is certainly upsetting but not the worse she as been through.
She is one of only a few true jounalist left in this country. One trying like hell to get the stories of the ignored into the light.
If we had many more jounalists like her, I reason we would not be in the situation we are in this country today.
Neo-cons follow the tactics of nazism. Such are the ironies of life. Neo-cons are actually neo-nazis. Instead of jews, the common enemy is muslims. The rest is all the same. Tell them they are being attacked, label all dissenters unpatriotic and you can do anything you want. That's from Hitler. He didn't invent it, the Romans did it too. But the nazis took it to the highest levels and their disciples learned well.....such as Leo Strauss............................lizard
it has been a long and slow descent into this police state
i have been posting on this subject for some time and my sense is that most folks are beginning to get the idea of how far along this process has gone
doesn't mean they have either the courage or commitment to actually get of their duffs and do anything about it
it is chilling to say the least but it is only reflective of american abuse that is all too commonplace around the world
if the nazis are doing this kind of shit here at home, to journalists, in front of cameras then imagine what they do in the dark backstreets of iraq
folks are realizing they have a lot more to fear from their own government than they do from bin laden or the taliban
you got fema prisons and blackwater armies all over the continent and nobody says a thing
worse yet - the disconnect between politics and the real day to day life of most americans has become such a chasm that only the gestapo can intercede
sad to see so many posts here trying to respond to this event through the prism of denial that fails to see the true state of the union
ladies and gentlemen the state of the union is not good
too many cowards afraid of too many ghosts - frozen and paralyzed
j'ai reprise mon ame
cheers, b
PLEASE PLEASE
File a lawsuit for false arrest! But more importantly: Real Americans need to congregate at the Liberty Tree and burn a mannequin identical in appearance to the City tax collector. Clearly, this is a case of taxation without representation. Representing only Crown interests inside the convention and prohibiting the coverage of the people locked outside is unconstitutional.
Burning a effigy of the tax collector is a precedent RICH in real American History.
Use your pocketbook power people! It's what we did in 1775! A 300 point market fall is nothing compared to a 5,000 dow fall.
NATIONAL BOYCOTT
NATIONAL STRIKE!
Ben Franklin The First American
Even NPR is controlled by the establishment. I heard a story they did today on "All Things Considered", and they totally bought into the official line (lie) about all 300 arrests being of violent anarchists, not people like reporters, and of plots to bomb and kidnap delegates. It's a real shame that NPR is no longer a reliable, independent source of news. I haven't even heard this being discussed by supposedly progressive talk radio hosts like Ed Schultz. Even Rachel Maddow has not mentioned this on any of her MSNBC appearances. I think she has been co-opted by corporate media. Once her own show debuts on MSNBC, she probably will have to pull her punches on her AAR show. The only places I have heard about the police abuses are sites like this, and Thom Hartmann's AAR show.
NPR has brains and isn't following the leftist agenda trying to twist this story. The anarchists destroyed windows, cars, and attacked delegates. One guy was even caught with a Molotov cocktail. These are serious criminal acts. What we see here in the local Twin City media and what most local people are talking about is completely different than the bull CommonDreams is trying to shove down our throats.
" What we see here in the local Twin City media and what most local people are talking about is completely different than the bull CommonDreams is trying to shove down our throats."
No one is "shoving anything down your throats"; if you do not want to read Common Dreams articles then don't. Amy Goodman's word is all I need about what happened to her and others in the Twin Cities.
We have watched our freedoms go out the window in the name of fighting terrorists; the only journalist in this country consistent in providing accurate information has been Amy Goodman. How do you know who the "anarchists" were? Wars of preemption and war racketeering are "serious criminal acts" not acts of dissent. We would still be subjects of the crown if the founders of this country were as unaware as you appear to be.
http://www.novamradio.com/live/stream.php
Well then! You just have to listen to Mike Malloy 6:00 PM PST, Monday through Firday.
If you have had a day of total frustration with the main stream media , then listen to Mike and you will laugh your patutie off.
Ms Goodman,
Another person of interest was arrested in St Paul. Even though it was a long time ago, it was only blocks from where you were. There was not much puclic outcry but some, no helpful lawyer to help, and a wall of bricks against him. He thought he was a free man before the arrest, then found out he was not free. Sort of a Scott Free slogan, infact his name was Dred Scott. Yes, the famous case.
Dick Gregory spoke about 70 miles northwest of St Paul in St Cloud back in the early 70's. He made a very serious statement about a city then about 40,000 having both what appeared to be a progressive state college and a state prison even though it was called a " Reformatory ". His statement was serious and simple, " Somebody is confused here, either law makers or the general public or both. "
This is also the land of two men trying to be president back in 1968 from Minnesota; Hubert Humphrey and Eugene McCarthy, then a third in 1972 Gus Hall. Many born and raised in this state understand most of the political battles fought nationwide. But they do not understand the local common police battles against the common people.I am afraid that the arrests you were part of would have happened in any American city.
The uncrossable "Police Lines" will continue to expand until, during a political convention in the near future, you will be arrested simply for stepping out of your front door.
Each time we move closer towards fascism, even if we push back, we can never push back to the original "Freedom Line".
Only a serious freedom revolution will prevent this.
BTW, pass this on. If you go to a protest, dress in business dress. You will be perfectly cloaked to avoid "targeting". Also the cognitive dissonance of the riot police arresting men in suits and ties and women in business slacks and tops will stop them in their tracks.
You Decide
Not so true about the blue suit dress. Some arrested in ST Paul are Vets and were in uniform. I don't know about any others wearing suits.
With all due respect to Amy, I don't think she actually answers the question entitling her article, that is "why we were falsely arrested." The answer is to be found in another of today's CD articles.
The RNC provided St. Paul with 10 million dollars to cover legal costs from the actions of the police, basically allowing them to arrest anybody they want without having any legally defensible reason. Sure, St. Paul will likely lose or throw out most of the cases, but they can afford the lawsuits! Meanwhile, the "protesters" are out of commission. The police can make false or illegal arrests with impunity because they have "insurance". The money trail clearly starts with the RNC. They essentially paid the local police to suspend the Constitution. Amy and her crew were arrested because the RNC wanted to hide dissent.
Being able to have a fund to pay off all the lawsuits created from illegal actions of a "bought" police force, means that the RNC is ostensibly above the law.
Tom L could you source your reference, please?
I have seen the light. I have read the posts and I finally realize that CD posters are armchair progressives. It's probably because you are mostly old people. I will never forget this. Our government engages in criminal activities of the highest order, including killing 1 million Iraqis without provocation, torture, jailing without trial, fixing elections, condoning spying on the US for a foreign country (or 51st state Israel?), conspiring to wage war in Georgia, contempt of congress........and more! This criminality must be opposed. But don't cross the police line , even if you are a reporter or the police will JUSTIFIABLY PHYSICALLY ASSAULT YOU. 1 million Iraqis are dead and you are not even willing to take a little punishment BECAUSE IT WOULD BE UNLAWFUL, NOT BECAUSE IT HURTS? Oh my, there really is no hope unless you really are all old. But where are the young ones? The owners are laughing at you. They know you are not capable of smashing windows and burning tires. Heck you won't even allow yourselves to BLOCK A DAMN ROAD. Progressive? Near progressive I would say, as in near beer..............................lizard
JAVIER, yes we are getting old! The fact that demonstrations do not immediately affect social change makes some activists give up on this form of protest. I for one think that we DO need to express our moral outrage at the dasterly acts of our criminal junta in Washington. We need to have a general strike to shut down this country even if it is only for twenty four hours. Civil Disobedience is necessary to let the ruling elite know that we are mad as hell and will not take it anymore. We are all complicit by our silence. Smashing windows and burning tires are not going to make a scintilla of difference if conducted in isolation. If I go out and burn a police car or break a bank window at a protest I will be portrayed by the MSM as an anarchist and a criminal. If tens of thousands of people camp out in the streets and refuse to get up until Guantanamo gets shut down what will the state do next? Education is the key. Speak out to as many friends as possible and ask them to attend political educationals that address the issue of our civil liberties being stolen from us. They can arrest us all but the whole world will be watching. All the state knows is violencia. They are experts at inflicting torture and abuse on the masses. Non-violent passive resistance as an organizing tool will make it harder for us to be portrayed by the MSM as thugs. We know where the attention needs to be focused on.
We can make a difference but we have to organize our work places, unions, houses of worship and block clubs first. Do not give up. We have the internet as a critical form of communication. If ten million people could be organized in a few weeks to demonstrate against Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) then what are we waiting for?
In 1990, I attended a church meeting in the Bay area in which a Jesuit priest from Spain named Martin Baro finalized his remarks by stating, "In academia the popular expression is publish or perish, but in my adopted country of el salvador, the expression is publish and perish." Nine months later the junta in that country sent in death squads into the UCA and wiped out the six Jesuits living there with their housekeeper and their sixteen year old daughter. Our tax dollars being put to good use.
I think you might have hit onto a key strategy that we haven't really tried. What if we don't go home after these protests? A million Londoners protest the impending war, then go home, and the government goes to war. But what if they stayed in the streets...
The young ones stopped reading. (mostly)
I may be old you crusty piece of horse crap….but consider yourself just bitch slapped.
oh
The intelligence of many as expressed in this thread is the reason I return to Commondreams on a regular basis.
Excellent posts: JP, CRUX PUPPY, LUCITANIAN, EARTHIAN, EL MYSTERIOSO... (as per the rules have changed) and we should at least be glad that these police rearing to show their "patriotism" and roused by the new powers given to street level authoritarians, did not use tasers; or else Amy might not have had her side of the story to air.
Jake Newton is "the contrarian" one who sees the LETTER of the law, but cannot understand its greater spirit. Maybe he means well, maybe he's the fly in our ointment, or maybe he really doesn't GET IT?
CAMEIROS: AS for shedding a light on "shadow individuals," when I first moved to Puerto Rico straight out of college, a touristy beach section was known for men masturbating on the beach. I met a woman who went out with her CAMERA and I asked her what for? She got photos of some of these guys, some were married middle class guys that just were looking for some outlet I guess, so repressed by the Catholic Church on that island marinaded in throbbing congas pulsing continuously. In any case, that was the way to curb their little afternoon delights! The exposure--and being made known--put a real damper on this little extra curricular activity. But does anyone know a blackwater person?
"Jake Newton is "the contrarian" one who sees the LETTER of the law, but cannot understand its greater spirit. "
Why don't you think I understand the greater spirit of the law?
"Maybe he means well"
Thank you for at least admitting the possibility, and I do mean well.
Yes, but he is a dumb kid of a friend of mine. He is overseas and he knows NOTHING about Black Water and their actives. He got in for the money to buy a home for his wife and baby and new baby on the way.
This is the NEW economy. NO WORK, JOIN A PAYING MILITIA.
Arrested because one thing Neo Cons / Republicans/ FOX news/ and all the other right wing nuts in this world can't stand is the truth.
The country is in financial ruin. It is no longer (if it ever was) the people's country. You know it, and those in power know it. Tell your children not to have any offspring, they are not wanted in this country, or on this planet.
It's sad but true.......what we do now creates the past, for what is a shadow but present cast.
They are very much wanted. So are mules, pigs, cows, SHEEP, chickens and horses.........lizard
The timing of the intimidation and mass arrest of journalists and activists is interesting. The crackdown comes when millions are watching the convention. The system must control the public mind and that necessitates preventing independent journalists and activists from slipping their questions and messages through the cracks. The flow of information from the political and media elites must be insulated from these independent and activist elements. The national parties and the elite business community do not sponsor this political theatre to have their message diluted by such elements. The vehemence of the crackdown highlights the fragility of the means of control and may point a way to its achilles heal.
Josh
"Power coceded nothing without demand. It never has and never will." Frederick Douglass
Oh course they didn't 'get the memo' about only embedded reporters being "allowed" real freedom.
For some damn reason they thought this wasn't Iraq ? ! ?
Namaste
From: THE DECLARATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and Amount and Payment of their Salaries.
He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.
He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislature.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large Bodies of Armed Troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from Punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
The laws of the land belong to us. We just need to identify and enforce them.
DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
the_idle_wretch
Amy Goodman's report shows hardened SS Nazi tactics at work in what was once
a free nation. Its over folks. We watched these past eight years like sheep
on the fattening lot . . .and now its too late. but what the hey we've still got Television and McDonalds etcetera . . . Enjoy!
Jacob Freeze, thank you. I could do without the heavy sarcasm but it's a point well taken.
I was a legal observer during the week of the Dem convention 4 years ago, and observed 6 demonstrations. The "law enforcement" people were terrifying: bulked up in black, Darth Vader masks, weapons bristling all over. No names or numbers, impossible to identify or hold accountable as individuals.
If they did this to Amy and the producers, clearly identified as press, impagine what they were/are doing to the demonstrators.
Opal
I really didn't know how to respond to watching Amy Goodman get jerked around by police. It's Amy Goodman, for God's sake! She's like the saint of American journalism, and there's some goddamned pig yanking her into a paddy wagon! Doesn't it make you want to jump on the next plane to St. Paul with a bucket of rocks?
And then there's the whole Democratic Party, beginning with the mayor of St. Paul, and every one of them from the top of the ticket to the bottom, from Obama to the Democratic dog-catcher in Podunk, down on all fours either hoovering up to law-and-order voters, or just totally indifferent to freedom of the press! What next?
Ralph Nader for President 2008!
Jacob Freeze
Oakknot
In a possibly related event this past week, in Portland, OR, Navy and Army Special Forces pilots were flying black helicopters downtown, at low altitude, in 4 or 5-member formations, buzzing everywhere. It was explained by those who arranged this "training" that they don't want their pilots to go into unfamiliar areas without knowing what is there.....Police State anyone?
Jacob, I was referring to your comment at 3:31 pm. Didn't realize there were a lot of newer posts after that.
Earthian, thank you so much for the example from Germany and the link to the review. Before I got to your post I had been musing about Germany in that late-30s period and wondering how some people managed to resist (either actively or at least emotionally) and not be detected. We know some did. And then there you were with an answer and a link!
And Jacob Freeze -- I had to giggle when I read your last few lines. I needed that.
Thanks AuntEm. I can't tell you in words how great Haffner's book is. I highly recommend it for understanding that period and our own. It is a unique account from a unique perspective. He wrote it in the late 1930s and put it away. His son found it in his desk after he died in about 1999. It had never been read or published until then.
We live in an age where the police do not have to fear for anything. When was the last time a police officer was charged with manslaughter? When was the last time a police officer was convicted (or even charged) with excessive force.
The (unstated) right wing goal for years has been to have governmental police power, like corporate power, unencumbered by any restraints. This paves the way for the corporate fascist state which has been their goal.
In the future, anyone who protests, even in print or blogs, will risk running afoul of the national security state and therefor be subject to detention. And fear will be used to justify any police action, whether federal or local. Anyone who questions this will be themselves targeted as "threats to the security of the people".
Tell me, do I sound paranoid?
We live in an age where the police do not have to fear for anything. When was the last time a police officer was charged with manslaughter? When was the last time a police officer was convicted (or even charged) with excessive force.
The (unstated) right wing goal for years has been to have governmental police power, like corporate power, unencumbered by any restraints. This paves the way for the corporate fascist state which has been their goal.
In the future, anyone who protests, even in print or blogs, will risk running afoul of the national security state and therefor be subject to detention. And fear will be used to justify any police action, whether federal or local. Anyone who questions this will be themselves targeted as "threats to the security of the people".
Tell me, do I sound paranoid?
We live in an age where the police do not have to fear for anything. When was the last time a police officer was charged with manslaughter? When was the last time a police officer was convicted (or even charged) with excessive force.
The (unstated) right wing goal for years has been to have governmental police power, like corporate power, unencumbered by any restraints. This paves the way for the corporate fascist state which has been their goal.
In the future, anyone who protests, even in print or blogs, will risk running afoul of the national security state and therefor be subject to detention. And fear will be used to justify any police action, whether federal or local. Anyone who questions this will be themselves targeted as "threats to the security of the people".
Tell me, do I sound paranoid?
.
Amy , I could see the disbelief in your eyes, in the picture. I cried for you , the tears just kept coming. your reaction to the outrage is what any true and honest citizen would have -any where in the world-.
It was wrong that you were not listened to by the police. They were acting in an unimaginable manner. how do they justify to themselves what they are doing is honest ?? I guess peace officers is now an oxymoron.
.
jakenewton: proud defender of the Riot Act.
"Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the act made in the first year of King George, for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King!"
Duplicate.
The assault on journalists is not the exclusive prerogative of the local constabulary. This may have been the case prior to 2002 and the establishment of the Department of Homeland Security when local jurisdictions might have been presumed to reflect the predilections of the local potentates. No more.
There is no debate about the propriety of Amy Goodman's actions. The cops were wrong. They may not create ad hoc rules to over ride Constitutionally guaranteed activities. They may not create riot situations and then charge civilians with PC riot. Stop the silly debate about video evidence! The cops were not behaving lawfully.
But culpability is not local. This was a "fusion" operation. Federal tacticians designed the strategy in collaboration with locals. Skullface Chertoff himself at DHS could well have signed off on it. The locals were implementing orders coming down the chain of command. Can't prove it, of course, and that is the beauty of a secret police apparatus. It is not accountable. And it fears journlists above all because their business is to create the basis for accountability by providing eye-witness testimony.
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 was over ridden by the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007. That is why National Guard, FBI, County Sheriff, municipal police, were together in happy cooperation. A hardcore DOD detachment could have been available at a moment's notice. This was just an exercise. The militarization of society is de facto reality.
The systematic arrests of journalists at the RNC represents a turning point because it signals the fulfillment of the purpose behind the creation of DHS. The state now has a national political enforcement tool that it can bring to bear thanks to the new definition of reality provided by the Patriot Act and the "war on terror". This is the implementation of the recommendation of the 911 Commission to correct the failures of internal security that supposedly led to the WTC destruction.
This is the unmistakable sign that the 911 terror has been successful in rewriting the Constitution and reordering life in these United States, without the knowledge or consent of the electorate.
You people quibbling over the video evidence cannot see the forest for the trees. Wake up!
Ask yourself: where are the presidential candidates? Doing the same thing as many commentators on this forum: giving the police carte blanche and putting the onus on American citizens exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.
www.renovationpress.com. WYSIWYG
you ask, "where are the presidential candidates?"
I can tell you that Ralph Nader put out an immediate short press release condemning what was done as soon as he learned about it. I imagine Cynthia McKinney did too. I certainly would expect the same from the Libertarians. The Bill of Rights are priority issues for them.
I have no idea about the two (ahem) "viable" candidates.
Good and important thoughts, cruxpuppy. Of course this was a "fusion" operation, especially if you also consider the "preemptive" arrests of protesters and dissenters. Although I am amazed at the number of posts questioning Amy Goodman's "motives," it seemed to me that she was honestly expecting that her colleagues had been mistakenly arrested, since they were clearly identified as credentialed members of the press. As you point out, the arrests of journalists does in fact mark a turning point, and one that I, as well as Amy Goodman it seems, did not expect. Of course we all have been talkng about the post 9/11 transformation of American society into a fear-driven police state (racial profiling, ICE raids, frightening new levels of unmonitored surveillance, etc), but this is the most blatant evidence of that new reality. As I stated in a previous post, I believe the intention behind these actions was twofold: to put fear in the hearts of dissenters, and to show jouranlists what can happen to those who would give voice to that dissent.
These police actions are unconscionable, and I believe that some of these posts that are supportive of police action are efforts on the part of moles to deflect attention from the seriousness of what we are witnessing: a blatant and unchallenged assault on the Constitution.
"There is no debate about the propriety of Amy Goodman's actions."
Yes there is. It is *debatable* as to whether her refusal to go to the sidewalk when ordered constituted obstruction.
"The cops were wrong."
That's debatable.
"They may not create ad hoc rules to over ride Constitutionally guaranteed activities."
This is false. There are no specific provisions in the Constitution that guarantee unlimited access of individuals and groups to all public place at all times. In fact, staes and municipalities are free to reasonably regulate such access on occasions that may or may not involve public safety, such as parades, demonstrations, concerts, construction projects, natural disasters, etc. I have never heard of any such regulation being overturned.
Of course true patriotism is proactive, meaning that extra efforts are made to tolerate, support our individual freedoms. When you start seeing the law as defining what is to be done, you get the opposite result. What I'm trying to say is that goons who can interpret laws to permit them to violate constitutional rights, will and do remove all the limitations and so forth, and act without restraint. These folks do not act out of some belief in the rights of man, rather in their right to exercise power, the reverse opposite of patriotism. Meanwhile we get trapped by our acceptance of the right's theft of certain words, patriotic, and feel we cannot use them for fear of being seen as wing-nuts.
It's just preaching to the choir to note how full of absolute lies Romney's speech was last night. They are converting the language to mean black is white and we are buying into it by simply wincing and being scornfully negative, happy to swap ad hominem attacks with firey language.
It's almost a psyche thing now-a-days. Conservatives like "snide"; liberals seem to be content with anger, rushing in like a herd of bulls. A slide show of Mitt leading the convention with lies needs to be created with calm interspersions of actual data as to who has been in control. I mean the idea that a liberal supreme court made the Guantanamo decision would be a good place to start. What he's saying is that law, facts, and the Constitution are of no concern to those who love "snide". They just want to be able to smirk. Simple declarations of fact, without argument, are supremely deflating to "snide". All they can do then is grumble or resort to more lies. When these people come to their Creator there will be hell to pay. Then we can smirk like those who focus on the teenage pregnancy of a selfrighteous holy roller. Until then we have to deliver simple truthes, patiently.
What a obedient little punkass you are, jakenewton.
It's *debatable* why the cops couldn't afford 15 seconds to hear Amy Goodman's question, ESPECIALLY when she had press credentials and there were more than enough officers adequately positioned at that point on the sidewalk.
...is my Constitutional right to spit in your face? I sure hope so... I mean you've clearly been programmed to unwaveringly worship authority, no matter how right OR wrong.
You's a bitch, jakenewton.
It's *debatable* why the cops couldn't afford 15 seconds to hear Amy Goodman's question, ESPECIALLY when she had press credentials and there were more than enough officers adequately positioned at that point on the sidewalk.
...is my Constitutional right to spit in your face? I sure hope so... I mean you've clearly been programmed to unwaveringly worship authority, no matter how right OR wrong.
"It's *debatable* why the cops couldn't afford 15 seconds to hear Amy Goodman's question,"
I agree.
"there were more than enough officers adequately positioned at that point on the sidewalk."
I don't think *you* have adequate information or knowledge to make this claim.
NO you're FALSE, and full of it
The 1st amendment rights of an independent media ( are based on their being the watchdog of the people, watching the gov't ) are long appreciated as being defended BEYOND those of mere "individuals & groups", as the troll spouts.
So DO YOU THINK Amy removed all of her OBVIOUS work affiliation credentials, and made her "demands" as a citizen alone ?
That tripe and hog wash
Namaste
"The 1st amendment rights of an independent media ( are based on their being the watchdog of the people, watching the gov't ) are long appreciated as being defended BEYOND those of mere "individuals & groups", "
Agreed.
"So DO YOU THINK Amy removed all of her OBVIOUS work affiliation credentials, and made her "demands" as a citizen alone ?"
Amy's problem stemmed from her refusing to go over to the sidewalk as ordered and then trying to force her way past the police line.
Amy’s article here begs a question but gives little as a satisfactory explanation, but here I pose perhaps part of an answer.
As the economy contracts the only growth “industry” left is security. This has been evident in countries suffering induced collapse from neo-colonial hegemony in South and Central America and Africa for years and is now becoming the case even in the US which seems now to me consuming itself in the cancerous Neocon globalization process.
To take the citizenries’ minds off the corrupt gangsters running the tricks at the top external and internal enemies are imagined, created, and exaggerated and vast sums of money expended with large fortunes being made by the few in the military and security industries, while ever larger numbers are “employed” to “serve”.
But armies are not there to kill people. Their purpose is to control territory and provide security and defence for such territories and the people in them, principally civilians. Police as well are there to “serve and protect”. Their function is to protect the population with an example of responsibility and a minimum and only appropriate use of deterrent or force and that directed exclusively against the “few” anti-social elements.
But in the new virtual delusionary “New American C,” from Afghanistan through Iraq and now to Minneapolis, police and military see themselves as a sub-culture and frame their function in terms of “them” and “us”, seeing any interaction as a threat if it does not comply with their control and intent. The military and the militarized police have disassociated themselves with society and social norms, writing their own rule book, in order to fulfil a “mission”, following orders and directives, and being only answerable to the machine of the police state and the tyranny of military occupation that keep delusional despots in power, hence the presence and action of the SS agent, at Amy’s arrest. These police are acting as thugs and are not fashioned to serve society or social norms, certainly not democratic needs for freedom tolerance and expression.
But this phenomenon usually gets worse, usually towards the end of a tyranny. All government eventually depends on the consent of the governed whether or not under a state of democracy or pseudo-self-deluding-democracy (as in the US) or just plain dictatorship as in Iraq under Saddam Hussein.
So the short answer is that the powers that be want to make it abundantly clear to all that to oppose them will be punished, and not to expect any rational, just force. Targeting the press brings that message to the people even quicker. The effect radicalises a few and cowers the timid.
You saw it with US supplied guns, carried by School of the Americas trained Indonesian soldiers killing “demonstrators” in East Timor, well now “the chickens are coming home to roost”, Amy.
Yes indeed , sir..................................lizard
Well said. Thank you
Namaste
"... our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."
today the police.. tomorrow it will be blackwater...
oh to live in interesting times....
America, the New Soviet Union.
Has the Messiah of Hope and Change commented on the brutalization of protesters and the press outside the conventions of both major parties?
Doesn't it seem like the sort of thing that a Messiah of Hope and Change might notice?
"Look, reporters and protesters are being brutalized outside the conventions of both major parties! It is happening right under my Messianic nose!"
"What's up with that?"
"I am the Messiah of Hope and Change and I do not like the look of this!"
"Desist, you pigs! Unhand Amy Goodman! I am Barack Obama, Messiah of Hope and Change, and I cannot stand by in silence while protesters and the press are brutalized!"
But the Messiah of Hope and Change is far away, calculating his next manoeuvre, and if the St. Paul police had sliced Amy Goodman into little pieces and fed her to their police dogs, the Messiah of Hope and Change would have consulted with Axelrod, Plouffe, and a dozen focus groups before he responded with a wishywashy "protest" that still managed to affirm the duty of the St. Paul police to slice up Amy Goodman under circumstances that will be defined more fully after the Messiah of Hope and Change becomes President of the United States.
Jacob Freeze
fark you troll. Do you think that by your repetitive language you can create a "truth" which does not exist?
troll or not it is a valid point.............refute it !............lizard
Are democratic citizens willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then they are not free. Are we able but not willing? Then we are malevolent. Are we both willing and able? Then whence comes evil? Are we neither able or willing? Then why call ourselves a democracy?
But to answer this question via bible speak:
Because if we have a free will, and if we believe it was a gift from god, and we betrayed his faith in our ability to be agents of good will by eating of the forbidden fruit, and we were evicted from his garden where he gave us everything we needed, and we were left to sweat and toil, and feel pain and want, guilt, blame and all the consequences of choosing bad faith over good faith. Our history of dealing with this up till now is imagine God as omnipresent, instead of admitting that God gave up his power of omnipresence when he gave us free will.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could finally admit the world we live in is of our making as agents of free will? Or admit our country is of our making as democratic citizens.
There may be a silver lining: after the lawsuit, St. Paul & Minneapolis may be subsidizing Democracy Now, and the rest of the arrested demonstrators, for the foreseeable future. New York just lost a $2 million suit over similar behavior.
The most alarming thing is that the police are behaving this way (with Secret Service help) immediately after that judgment came out. Evidently they have been told they're above the law: I wonder who did that? Perhaps the St Paul Police Chief should be asked, under oath. A lawsuit might be just the context for that question.
Oregoncharles
lITTLE MONEY GUY. Chump change for the ones who promote this. The RNC provided plenty of money in advance for just this minor expense.........................lizard
Yes, the Secret Service has been instrumental in curbing the free-speech of demonstrators over the last 8 years.
On Democracy Now this morning it was reported that the Minneapolis and St. Paul police departments expressed concern for police brutality/wrongful arrest lawsuits, so the Republican party promised them several million dollars to cover the lawsuits if they gave the police free reign.
The courageous actions by Amy Goodman, the other journalists, and the protesters reminded me of a passage I read in a book called Defying Hitler by Sabastian Haffner, a young, progressive, white (Aryan) German lawyer in the 1930s, during the rise of the National Socialists.
After the brief passage below I'll leave a link to a review of the amazing book.
Here is the passage (he is a lawyer with other lawyers, and is in a library-like room):
" . . . the intruders had arrived at the library. The door was thrust open and a flood of brown uniforms surged in. In a booming voice, one of them, clearly the leader, shouted, 'Non-Aryans must leave the premises immediately.' It struck me that he used the careful expression 'non-Aryans,' but also a rather colloquial expression for 'premesis.' Someone, probably the same person as before, answered, 'They've already left.' Our ushers stood there as though they were about to salute. My heart beat heavily. What should I do, [how do] I keep my poise? Just ignore them? Do not let them disturb me? I put my head down over my work. I read a few sentences mechanically: 'The defendant's claim that . . . is untrue, but irrelevant . . .' Just take no notice!
"Meanwhile, a Brownshirt approached me and took up position in front of my worktable. 'Are you Aryan?' Before I had a chance to think, I said, 'Yes.' He took a close look at my nose, and retired.
"The blood shot to my face. A moment too late, I felt the shame, the defeat. I had said 'Yes!' Well in God's name, I was indeed an 'Aryan.' I had not lied. I had allowed something much worse to happen. What a humiliation, to have answered the unjustified question as to whether I was Aryan, so easily, even if the fact was of no importance to me! What a disgrace, to buy, with a reply, the right to stay with my documents in peace! I had been caught unawares, even now. I had failed my very first test. I could have slapped myself.
"As I left the Kammergericht it stood there, gray, cool, and calm as ever, set back from the street in its distinguished setting. There was nothing to show that, as an institution, it had just collapsed. There was also nothing about my appearance to show that I had just suffered a terrible reverse, a defeat that would be almost impossible to make good. A well-dressed young man walked down Potsdammer Strasse. There was nothing untoward about the scene. Business as usual, but in the air, the approaching thunder of events to come . . ."
p 150, 151
Defying Hitler
Here is a review:
http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2002/09/03/haffner/
Perhaps each of us will face a choice in this budding police state.
Amy Goodman did. And she passed her test. She attempted to see a commanding officer. She attempted to see her reporters and free them. She has that right. Journalists have additional rights.
Perhaps others of us will face our test and will have to choose between humiliating ourselves by cooperating with totalitarian bullying OR demonstrating courage by NOT cooperating with totalitarian bullying. Haffner's story is remarkable.
Haffner answers a number of questions. Why didn't the German people resist the rise of their totalitarian police state? What was it like being IN that situation?
I ask a question: What must progressives do to resist our emerging police state? (I think Amy, her colleague journalists, and the protesters she documented provide one answer--defiance.)
Sabastian Haffner notes that at some point it became too late for Germany to avoid the path of their totalitarianism. It is not yet too late for us to stop the creeping movement towards a totalitarian police state of America.
BEAUTIFUL....................................lizard
I know this humiliation and anger at yourself for complying. In about 2003, I called TigerDirect to order something for my workplace. They wanted to verify my identity so they started asking me questions. They told me they would read me 4 addresses and to tell them which one I didn't ever live at. ????? They read me an address from 20 years earlier where I lived for only 4 months and never even held a job in that city. Then they read me a list of Arabic names to tell them if I knew these people. They caught me off-guard and I was answering the questions until I angrily cut them off. It was all to let me know they knew everything about me --- even though I was ordering something for work and not for personal use. It was all there at their fingertips.
I am furious that I complied. NEVER AGAIN.
I know this humiliation and anger at yourself for complying. In about 2003, I called TigerDirect to order something for my workplace. They wanted to verify my identity so they started asking me questions. They told me they would read me 4 addresses and to tell them which one I didn't ever live at. ????? They read me an address from 20 years earlier where I lived for only 4 months and never even held a job in that city. Then they read me a list of Arabic names to tell them if I knew these people. They caught me off-guard and I was answering the questions until I angrily cut them off. It was all to let me know they knew everything about me --- even though I was ordering something for work and not for personal use. It was all there at their fingertips.
I am furious that I complied. NEVER AGAIN.
Excellent post Earthian...
So people, when are you going to have your encounter with the Fascists? Will you pass the test?
Does 'fig-less' count as one ?
Namaste
Nothing scares a cop more than a crowd. This crowd likes to believe in the notion of freedom of speech, but that don't mean nothing to a cop who just left his morning blow job only to be faced by 20,000 people demanding to be heard. This frenzied state enables these well paid high school graduates to start biting like any other predator in the world. They need to put plexiglass and cages up to protect those who wish to be American from these creatures. Most of all, these guys know that without their brute force, armor and tactics that any one of these people in the crowd could take them in a schoolyard brawl because, and they know this, you don't lose a fight when you're right. Alas, no such go here. Instead, arrest someone, make them go in front of their goofball courts, charge them a lot of money, fuck up their job prospects for years and then go home and wait for that next morning blow job before going back to work and looking shifty-eyed at everything that moves again. Don't blame the cops. Blame the Christians who hired the cops to put Jesus' (Big Oil's) agenda on the front burner "at all costs," the resultant deaths of innocents creating mass anger among truly righteous people i.e. those who do not destroy cultures for mere larger financial numbers. And blame the fringe muslims while you're at it for espousing that violence is a holy thing and scaring these guys half to death. Of course they're seeing monsters in the faces of little women. The cops are scared and in the middle of a football game. The score? Cops 1. You 0. As predictable as a Republican-monitored election.
"Nothing scares a cop more than a crowd."
So cops are humans. An unruly crowd will scare you and me too.
Consider also that a fund was established to defend the cops against legal challenges. Doesn't that suggest they were being invited to break the law or at least get really close to the line? For a small group of protesters. Imagine what it would be like if the protesters were truly angry?------------------lizard
who's more scary? A group of civilian protesters, or riot gear clad paramilitary thugs? Again Jake, you're on the WRONG side of the argument.
" A group of civilian protesters, or riot gear clad paramilitary thugs?"
The manner in which you frame this question, the way you characterize the two groups, speaks to your inability to have an honest discussion. Your mind is made up and closed tight, fine by me.
It is you who has closed his mind. It is you who is refusing an honest discussion since you didn't answer a valid question. Who is scarier? And he didn't say TRAINED riot gear clad paramilitary thugs. The only objection you could have is in the use of the word paramilitary. It is worth addressing. Why don't you? Are you tired?
"It is you who is refusing an honest discussion since you didn't answer a valid question."
It was a loaded question. It's a dishonest debate tactic to ask a loaded question. If you've never in fact beaten your spouse, and I ask you if you've stopped beating your spouse yet, you would rightly charge me with asking a loaded question because either yes or no implies that you beat your spouse. If I am asked to choose between what is ostensibly to the poster a well behaved crowd of civilians vs. armed paramilitary thugs, choosing either of the two implies I agree with the characterizations offered and I don't agree they apply in this case. Glad to help.
The framing of the question prevents you from answering? That's weak Jake.
"The framing of the question prevents you from answering?"
I tend to ignore loaded questions:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html
"That's weak Jake."
Your apparent need to ask loaded questions about issues that are very debatable shows your own weakness.
So it's debatable that civillian protesters are more scary than riot-gear clad police? So, what you're saying is that the question was loaded because I called the police "thugs"...
I think I'm starting to understand you Jake. You have a pathological need to be on the wrong side of every issue.
"So it's debatable that civillian protesters are more scary than riot-gear clad police?"
No, it's debatable that the simple term "civillian protesters" was a correct characterization. The term "unruly mob" may have applied more accurately. Or the qualification that some in the "civillian protesters" were breaking the law.
"So, what you're saying is that the question was loaded because I called the police "thugs"..."
Of course it was.
What's really weak is expecting anything like an honest or straightforward answer about gov't complicity in creating the RIOTS.
His 'hole' purpose is bury the truth
Namaste
.
.
s ☮ r r y
whoa! where do you get the peace symbol?
It's part of the web's UNICODE character set ( ♥ ☆ ★ ▲ ◆♪♪♫ 〓 ), which goes QUITE beyond the usual shifted, ALTernate ( ALT key ), and ( both ) shifted alternate characters:
` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =
~ ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( ) _ +
` ⁄ € ‹ › fi fl ‡ ° · ‚ — ±
` ¡ ™ £ ¢ ∞ § ¶ • ª º – ≠
Q W E R T Y U I O P { } |
q w e r t y u i o p [ ] \
œ ∑ ´ ® † ¥ ¨ ˆ ø π “ ‘ «
Œ „ ´ ‰ ˇ Á ¨ ˆ Ø ∏ ” ’ »
A S D F G H J K L : "
a s d f g h j k l ; '
å ß ∂ ƒ © ˙ ∆ ˚ ¬ … æ
Å Í Î Ï ˝ Ó Ô Ò Ú Æ
Z X C V B N M < > ?
z x c v b n m , . /
Ω ≈ ç √ ∫ ˜ µ ≤ ≥ ÷
¸ ˛ Ç ◊ ı ˜ Â ¯ ˘ ¿
Just copy it, save it as text file, and paste it whenever you want.
You see, I'm
__ giving ☮_P E A C E_☮
__ to the ♀♂_P E O P L E _♂♀
__ to quell some of the ☠_V I O L E N C E _☠
Namaste
"It's part of the web's UNICODE character set "
And it will never add anything to the content of one's remarks, and can easily detract when used to excess. So be careful.
the revolution will not be televised--it will be on amy goodman's radio...
live it every moment--in your actions and plastered across your face--and if we practice yoga, meditation, writing, reading and breathing--prison will not hold such terrors...
many have come back from their time in the hole bigger, better, stronger...
win the war on terror--don't be scared...
I listen to Amy Goodman every day. Her Tucson sponsor is a friend of mine. I am not interested in a balanced view of this event. I take it personally. I hope she is considering legal action. If she needs money to identify these flies and hold them to account I hope she knows she can hit on us for it.
She would lose, based on the kinds of nonsense you see exposed in these postings. Face it, the people, including posters here, are blind to what is going on. While the rule of law is dismembered they expect you to oppose this without the benefit of the rule of laws but with its responsabilities. How pathetic. How unaware of Jefferson and Madison. How utterly meek and cowardly. Fear of disorder. That is why you fall so easily for their scare stories, because you are sissies that view the state as a mother. Time to grow up folks, their stealing your lunch counting precisely on your fear of disorder, and you own inhibition in trying to keep your freedom and your rights. They are counting on your good heart to allow them to rob you blind. Con men are disgraceful criminals. Their victims are pathetic. That is America today, con men in charge and pathetic do-gooders being victimized by virtue of being gullible nice people............lizard
BTW,
Is anyone a little pissed off at the fact that just about EVERYONE agrees that when some young anarchists throw some rocks at windows or slash a tire, it justifies all police response. Im sick and tired of anarchists taking the crap from these people who should be our allies, or at the least sympathizers. Instead we get the scapegoating. This is true of the liberals, progressives, socialists, communists, Democracy Now! (never slow to show that they are better than "that lot") and just about everyone else. Blame the Anarchists! Wow, heard that one before folks. Haymarket anyone? Sacco and Vanzetti? Your complicity in this scapegoating or just downright sliminess ensures that people of the libertarian socialist persuasion will be the first to go. War Criminals bomb kill and torture millions. Anarchists throw rock through Macys window. But hey, at least you get to go home to your yuppie lives, sip starbucks, and reminisce about the days you spent slumming it with those trying with everything they have to stop the slaughter. Agree, disagree, but when you point the finger you are complicit.
Good point, Sabat, but it is made problematic by five "anarchists" getting more attention in the media than thousands of peaceful marchers. What do you suppose that does to the effort to get a message out?
I put the term anarchists in quotes because not all of them actually are anarchists. Those self-identified groups are the easiest place for agent provacateurs to infiltrate if their intent is to display property damage as a cue for riot police to move in.
Further, let me assure you that anyone with a functioning brain does not accept a broken window as just cause for police violence or repression of liberty.
Sabat September 4th, 2008 2:20 pm
excellent comments - i would consider myself a decentralized socialist but anyone who takes the time to offer a compelling critique and attempts change deserves my respect. the anarchists and activists that organized the demonstrations in the twin cities are patriots.
the govt spent 50 million dollars on new surveillance toys and the creation of a gestapo/brownshirt police response. 50 million dollars buys a lot of new glass.
"But hey, at least you get to go home to your yuppie lives, sip starbucks, and reminisce about the days you spent slumming it with those trying with everything they have to stop the slaughter"
of all the emotions/articulated responses i've encountered this election season. primaries, discussions of 3rd party alternatives, the candidates positions in the congress -- i find the visceral tangible act of protest - to be the most sincere form of expression. the organizers and participants and observers of these events in the twin cities are the torchbearers. mass civil disobedience/demonstration is way overdue in 'murika.
we should support the patriots (of all stripes and colors) even if a few of their tactics are unsettling to some of us.
also why are people so hung up on property damage ?, the police exist to protect property. who's property are they protecting?
the protests this week are a barometer of how wiling americans are to address the bankrupt government that has perpetuated suffering accross the globe.
again i am amazed at the lack of participation. out of a population of 300 million people, only 10,000 citizens protest mccain/bushco, and then commentators at respectable progressive sites question the tactics, legitimacy, fasion ect.. of those few who actually use their 1st amendment rights?
there's a symbolic reason (religion, speech, expression - the right to observe) these rights are the most esteemed. the first amendment. expression and discourse lie at the center of our being, our humanity.
it's a long night ahead of us my friends, hopefully in the future - after 'murika- has woken up and participates in the demonstrations - we won't be hesitant to call anarchists/activists - patriots.
any one of the organizers arrested at the rnc welcoming committee would be more qualified to be vice president than sarah palin...
again thank you for your comments..
...peace...
No, you know what ticks me off? Anarchists who only appear when they have an opportunity to ruin the peaceful protests that someone else organized. They steal the media coverage and enable the media to delegitimize the event. Why don't you black maskers organize your own protests? Oh yeah, you can't organize, you're anarchists.
I have great respect for Amy's courage and reporting but looking at this video objectively it's abundantly clear to me she was seeking to get arrested. Particularly at the point where the cop is saying move to the sidewalk, blah blah and she digs in her feet and tries to get around him, at that point he calls for arrest and they take her back. Again I admire what she does and glad she is okay but to say she was oblivious she would get arrested after pusing back against that cop underestimates her intelligence.
Never confront a cop, even if it is your right. You will get beaten up and everybody, including CD posters, will say " yep, she was looking for it"-Get ready for the Gulag---yep, he was asking for it---hahaha----put out your pretty little manicured hands so I can handcuff them--------Certainly officer, just don't beat me up----------lizard
Yes,indeed, we should ALL obey the law METICULOUSLY. We don't want chaos do we? Unless of course, it's in Iraq or Colombia, or Iran. The leadership engages in the supreme crime of invading other countries unprovoked but we must not cross the police line. We must have order. Press? Hey, NOONE is above the law in America, hear that? Noone!!!----------------hahahah--------I love comedians---------------------------lizard
I disagree, but maybe you were looking at a different video objectively.
But what about the manner in which Nicole Salazar was clobbered, and Sharif Kouddous manhandled when he simply tried to come to her assistance? Salazar was actually filming the encounter-- as a credentialed member of the press, remember-- before her own camera was smashed back into her face and she was knocked down. Is there some "objective" evidence of misbehavior on their parts, too?
It seems to me that those approving of police conduct are deliberately refusing to consider the totality of the circumstances, and instead focus on seemingly critical minutiae in support of the cops.
Can you really take a step back and "objectively" conclude that Amy was "trying" to get arrested, rather than "trying" to do what she plainly SAID she was doing-- rushing to assist subordinates or colleagues after receiving a report that they had been inexplicably arrested and injured by police? Do you think she INSTRUCTED those producers to get themselves assaulted and thrown around? Sounds like something Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity would claim.
I'm reminded of a time when a former co-worker was pleasantly discussing relatives from Germany who were visiting; apart from her anxiety to make sure her house was super-clean before they arrived, she joked that whenever they were walking around and got to a corner, the Germans wouldn't set foot off the curb until the WALK light flashed, even if there wasn't a car in sight. She wasn't "stereotyping", just describing.
This "Good German" mentality-- Ordnung!-- in which citizens are supposed to remain TOTALLY subservient to police is not normal in Amerika. Nor should it be. As I commented previously, it would be one thing if the cops were truly involved in some vital police action, e.g. shots fired, policeman down, rioting. The group of cops Amy approached were NOT involved in some imminent action that Amy was foolishly disrupting. It was all dehumanized lizard-brain control and brute force, just like the pre-emptive police raids.
If the participating cops, or some cop watching the video, is conditioned to think that she was intentionally looking for trouble because she she didn't say "Mother, may I?" before crossing a totally arbitrary line, all I got to say is "Seig Heil!", and have a nice day.
L I T T L E _ B R O,
Thank you & well said. I think what people forget about the "good Germans", is that like bookends, there's usually some "bad Germans nearby", hmmmmmmmm.
Ignore the next comment,
___ there's nothing going on down there --
___ and I can see 360 degrees around.
Namaste
"The group of cops Amy approached were NOT involved in some imminent action that Amy was foolishly disrupting"
Given the extremely limited view offered by that video, I can't see how you can possibly say this.
Perhaps,
because Amy is a very bright and trained observer of detail ?
Namaste
What an ignoramus. Goodman wasn't "trying to get arrested" and to assert as much totally misunderstands her motives in approaching these armed thugs. She had a right to demand of them why her colleagues were arrested and beaten. To ignore this is to have no screaming idea what a free press might even mean. Cjlov seems to think Amy was staging the whole thing just so she'd get attention, an expected perception from some stooge of the far right.
"Goodman wasn't "trying to get arrested" and to assert as much totally misunderstands her motives"
Not one of us can understand Goodman's motive at the time, that is in her own heart. All we can do is observe her actions and *guess* about her motivation.
"She had a right to demand of them why her colleagues were arrested and beaten."
That's correct. She had a right to demand why. But those particular cops were under no obligation to to indulge that demands at that particular moment. Goodman knows that I am sure, as an experienced journalist.
Jake, One of the first things I learned, the hard way, when participating in online discussions, many years ago, was that a flame war makes all participants losers, even if they don't see that. It could simply be that you're being baited. I'd just let the flamers be. The more reasonable you are, and the more you insist that that's what is called for, the more the provocateur sees that as a signal that he or she's getting somewhere.
Peace man.
"Jake, One of the first things I learned, the hard way, when participating in online discussions, many years ago, was that a flame war makes all participants losers, even if they don't see that."
Thank you for your kind post. I can't agree that this is always the case though, but "you both get dirty and the pig likes it " does make me chuckle. I've been doing this on various subjects since the early nineties.
"It could simply be that you're being baited."
I doubt that in most of the cases here. I think people really mean what they are saying, including facts around this incident up t me being a fascist or paid neocon. I wish I were paid.
"Peace man."
m\/
fignewton
wants us to believe his authoritative statements equal truths as "Not one of us can understand Goodman's motive at the time..."
Yet he seems to think he/she/itself is quite capable of discerning that "Goodman knows that I am sure..." even as he attempts to mind read the officers and their demands at that moment without any qualifying attempts to render his 'opinion' with any validation other than being able to type and construct false logic from straw.
He obviously is highly gifted in his own mind.
"Yet he seems to think he/she/itself is quite capable of discerning that "Goodman knows that I am sure..."
I can't know what is in Goodman's heart, but she is intelligent and therefore I am reasonable in thinking that she knows certain things that intelligent journalists know.
"even as he attempts to mind read the officers and their demands at that moment without any qualifying attempts to render his 'opinion' "
My opinion matters not a bit about the orders given by the officers. The fact is they gave orders.
As usual, Jake you confuse the issue with 'The fact is they gave orders." And this, in your opinion, qualifies as the stating of 'facts.' I beg the pardon of high school graduates that pass as the authority to issue 'orders' to citizens. Especially the legality of your position, let alone those of a police officer whose real, and exercised, intent is to inflict bodily harm on unarmed reporters with a legal right by credential to be where they were. Your obsessive-compulsive disorder to elevate fact to some pinnacle of objectivity belies your insecurity of your own belief in reality.
You have declined to recognize the fact that your perceptions are shriveled by the very facts you proclaim. For instance, your claim that since Goodman is intelligent therefore you are reasonable in thinking that is your opinion of what she is thinking has magically become 'fact.' Simply by your sublime will to authoritate your opinion in a closed circular argument that only subscribes to a child's self-centered, tiny world of toys, not the grown up world that scoffs at the adult who pretends his opinions are not responsible for the mess he may make of people's lives.
Your insipid attempt to evade my observation that you cannot 'know' the officers intent or even that they are giving what you deem are 'orders.' Citizens are not the equivalent of army privates, who, by the way are not required to obey illegal orders. The use of force by the police is not given to them by the wearing of a badge. The mistaken belief that it gives a blanket legality to obviously illegal action by the police is beyond the limit of your authoritative posturing and false humility of your 'opinion' is the recurring ruse you employ as distraction from the exposed vapidness of your logic with which you attempt to bully the intellect of others here.
But now you know I am very capable of disassembling your obnoxious personality and the rather crude attempts you make to establish an authoritative presence among some people who are also competent to disembowel your 'manifest destiny' of childish dimensions.
Of course, now your task is to attempt to understand what I have presented in order to invalidate what I have established as fact.
Perhaps...But it doesn't change the fact you lie to prevent a disassociative event in your feeble mind.
Love,
your conscience of denial.
"'The fact is they gave orders." "
Yes, telling Goodman to move to the sidewalk constitutes "giving orders".
"in your opinion, qualifies as the stating of 'facts.'"
Yes, "facts" given the very strongly supporting video evidence.
"those of a police officer whose real, and exercised, intent is to inflict bodily harm on unarmed reporters"
This position is ridiculous. There is no evidence to support your claim concerning the intent of the officers. And from the video, I would say they did not inflict bodily harm on Goodman anyway. If it were their intent, they would just pummel her with their batons I would think. Instead, they were quite gentle with her given the range of possibilities.
Is it possible for you to imagine for a minute, even for the sake of argument, that the police acted properly or the crowd had some bad actors? I doubt it. OTOH, I can imagine the spectrum of possibilities, but when confronted with evidence I must be reasonable about what is true or not.
" with a legal right by credential to be where they were."
Press credentials provide no rights. The above statement is false.
"your claim that since Goodman is intelligent therefore you are reasonable in thinking that is your opinion of what she is thinking has magically become 'fact.'"
I challenge you to find the quote by me supporting this ridiculous charge. I stated as opinion that Goodman knew what she was doing but I even qualified it by saying "I could be wrong". You are confused for some reason.
"Citizens are not the equivalent of army privates, who, by the way are not required to obey illegal orders."
You are profoundly ignorant of the powers and discretion that are granted to the police. There is nothing illegal about closing off a section of a street during crowd control activities and ordering those who venture into that area onto the sidewalk. Those are "lawful" orders. I already gave some examples but here are more:
Crowd Control, as with the current case or, as example the planned or spontaneous gathering of fans after a sports team wins a championship, or with parades, sporting events, concerts, and other public activities.
Traffic Control, as when an officer orders you to stop by holding up his hand, whether while walking or driving a car.
Control of fire or crime scenes.
Control of accident scenes.
Control of areas near large construction projects.
In all of the above examples, when a policeman orders a citizen to stop or move one way or another, the order is lawful and will be held up in court as such every time. These kinds of police activities occur every day by the thousands.
"The use of force by the police is not given to them by the wearing of a badge."
You are correct, nor is a badge or uniform required. The powers of police are manifested in statutory law and supported by the judiciary. Also limited by the same.
"obviously illegal action by the police"
Please take time here to explain and support with evidence the illegal action you allege.
"Of course, now your task is to attempt to understand what I have presented in order to invalidate what I have established as fact."
Done.
"you lie"
Your very best example please?
So what you're saying here Jake is that the police don't serve the people, they serve the state. So you're one who thinks that we shouldn't question authority? Or is it that we should question authority but if we do, we deserve police violence in return?
"So you're one who thinks that we shouldn't question authority?"
Funny you should think this, after reading that I affirmed Gooman's right to demand answers regarding her colleagues.
"Or is it that we should question authority but if we do, we deserve police violence in return?"
I'll repeat what I said since your reading comprehension is evidently poor: The particular cops she questioned were under no obligation to indulge Goodman's demands at that particular time and place. As for violence, I saw none in the video. In fact, it was Goodman who appeared beligerent, first refusing to go to the sidewalk and then seemingly trying to push her way past the cops.
The cops "had no obligation to indulge Goodman's demands"? You must be a cop, or ex-cop, jakenewton, to defend their right to refuse to answer her First Amendment question and claim she was being belligerent, not them. Christ, what are you smoking? Republican hash? She has a right to ask questions but has no right to an answer, if the cops aren't in the mood to answer her. If they're in the mood, instead, to twist her arms behind her back and cuff her with those plastic skin cutters, that's their right, 'cause she's being belligerent in asking a question. Reasoned like a true rightwing asshole. Go hang with them.
"The cops "had no obligation to indulge Goodman's demands"? "
Correct. The cops, just like you and I, are under no legal obligation to answer questions from the press.
"She has a right to ask questions"
Yes.
"but has no right to an answer"
Yes. You can learn something new every day.
"If they're in the mood, instead, to twist her arms behind her back and cuff her with those plastic skin cutters,"
Goodman was arrested and subsequently cuffed ( a standard procedure BTW )because she ignored orders to move to the sidewalk, and then tried to force her way past the cops. I am reviewing the video now and it is very clear to me, and I expect the obstruction charge to stick based on this video.
Well, congratulations on being and freely admitting you're just another off-the-shelf fascist. Everything you say here reeks of it and everyone knows it. All you care about is the cops' rights to act like thugs and brutalize anyone that gets in their way and you clearly don't give a damn about the First Amendment or citizens' constitutional rights, a free press or anything else related to a democracy. You'll fit right in, once the full-fledged police state is established under McCain. Maybe you can go to work for Blackwater. Or maybe you already do.
"Well, congratulations on being and freely admitting you're just another off-the-shelf fascist."
I admit to no such thing. You are reduced to juvenile name calling because you are unable to address the *facts* being discussed.
"you clearly don't give a damn about the First Amendment or citizens' constitutional rights, a free press"
I care about these things very much. *You* on the other hand demonstrate a profound lack of understanding of these things, as indicated by your reliance on frequent name calling and dishonest debate tactics. Instead you should address the issues directly if you really knew what you were talking about.
Since you're so interested in debate, why do you suppose identifying someone for what they themselves admit to being is "name calling"? If anyone's a juvenile here it's jakenewton. You have constantly defended these armed thugs calling themselves police (they're hired by the RNC to beat up on demonstrators, backed up by $10 million insurance to pay for the inevitable lawsuits. They're bound by no laws but their own; the demonstrators are at their mercy.) and that's one definition of fascism. You have said you've "reviewed" the video of Amy being manhandled and arrested for daring to ask a question to the authority figures you so ardently admire and can only find evidence of her "belligerence" and their forebearance. This is a perception only one steeped in authoritarianism would admit to, and it clearly indicates a fascist mentality. You own it, I didn't put it there. You would have said the same things about the Nazi treatment of Jews in the 1930s--that they were asking for it, for not abiding by the "law" laid down by their obvious oppressors. Obvious to everyone but slaves to authority figures, even ones with high school educations like these thugs. So take your fascist sensibilities to a Republican website and regale them with what anarchists you've had to put up with here. They'll easily empathize. Maybe you can find some folks to club along the way, who dare to question your easygoing subservience to lawless, inconstitutional authority.
"why do you suppose identifying someone for what they themselves admit to being is "name calling"?"
Because it's ad hominem, a fallacy of logic, and ignores the legitimate arguments on the table. Committing this fallacy is a beginner's mistake. I recommend you look up the term.
"arrested for daring to ask a question "
Just once more since you are so incapable of reading: She clearly ignored repeated orders to move to the sidewalk. That constitutes obstruction. That is why she was arrested and that is what she was charged with, not for the reason you state above.
Live forever in your dreamworld of blissful totalitarianism, since you're clearly incapable of living anywhere else. As others have said, what's the use of wasting time with a dedicated semi-literate gasbag, who actually believes that to identify someone for what they themselves clearly define themselves to be (fascist) is an ad hominem attack?
And you have the temerity to call others on their use of logic? See getreal's post to you, O benighted one, for a thorough evisceration of your misuse and complete lack of interest in logic. You're a 4th-rate thinker on this entire subject and everyone here KNOWS IT, so get off your pedantic perch and assume the position you so dearly cherish: bent double before your police state goon squads, taking it up the ass for military dictatorships, both here and abroad.
"Live forever in your dreamworld of blissful totalitarianism,"
Ironic that you call me totalitarian while refusing to even consider positions other than your own.
"As others have said, what's the use of wasting time with a dedicated semi-literate gasbag, who actually believes that to identify someone for what they themselves clearly define themselves to be (fascist) is an ad hominem attack? "
I think *you* should quit wasting your time and mine, unless you wish to directly discuss the issues, which you have repeatedly refused to do in lieu of your repeated name calling.
"See getreal's post to you,"
I did, *you* see my response.
"for a thorough evisceration"
*snicker*
witless & wily
willyless _ W O N K _
Namaste
But Jake,
_ c.a.r.i.n.g _ v.e.r.y _ m.u.c.h -- about beating up people
____ to force fear, pain, and terror
- - - - - in the fascist system - - - - -
and to repress free thinking
____ is just like __ p.s.y.c.h.o.p.a.t.h.i.c ____
- - - - - - - P S Y O P S - - - - - - - - -
what a creep, condoning & defending ILLEGAL police violence while attacking and arresting ( very public ) members of the press
… why bother talking with someone like this ?
Namaste
Because this is the essence of America. You have to talk to "them", they are America and it is America that has to change--------------lizard
I do talk with people interested in discussion, ( but very likely ) propaganda PSYOPS shills have no opinions of their own.
He has _ N O T H I N G _ really to offer to any us that we NEED to hear or read about, nor that I've any interest in reading -- in fact the subtle brainwashing is well avoided for those wanting to keep an open mind. If you ( or anyone else ) do have a need for someone to pick apart your progressive ideas -- please do go ahead and engage him.
He's just like a selective tool that sharpens neoCONs and dulls progressives
You might consider his long easily viewed record of having no opinions at all -- but always supporting the neoCON fascists implicitly -- by the progressive acid wash of his targeted responses ( a carefully constructed figure / ground reversal ).
Most on this forum avoid jousting with him, but his duplicity raises my antipathy. Many have gauged the 'angle of his dangle', and decided to no longer engage him -- once they've seen him w/o his fig leaf.
He's beyond a contrarian, as SIOUXROSE refers to him -- because he _v.e.r.y_ selectively argues only those positions that undercut progressive ideas -- and people supporting those ideas -- to raise self doubt and question known true facts.
What I mean is he has no egalitarian pursuit of truth, and cares only to dissolve those arguing progressively -- while avoiding any discussion of anything that would disfavor neoCONs or attacking equally flawed reasoning in the same thread that buttresses neoCONers.
I do not agree to an _ u s / t h e m _ dichotomy -- as even the worse people are still human -- and may actually think that they're doing the right thing.
Jake has tipped his hat often enough to me -- so that I do know the
____ dishonor of his metal, and the
____ lack of character in his caricature.
And no, one doesn't have to talk with anyone -- even the police during interrogation. You may feel that he has something to say, and I wouldn't wish to preclude that self discovery -- I'm just sharing what I've learned.
I've carefully observed and argued his "points & reasoning" in great detail -- perhaps a 500 times over a year ( and read many others ) -- and I seen only a mere glimpse of human concern perhaps 2 or 3 times.
The only plausible explanation is that
____ if he acts like a troll,
____ we might as well treat him like a troll.
Until we know how much he cares -- why should we care about him ?
Namaste
"He has _ N O T H I N G _ really to offer to any us that we NEED to hear or read about,"
Just one thing you NEED to hear about, is that the headline of this article is *wrong* given the facts of the incident that are supported by Goodman's video. That so many of you simply can't consider this point indicates so much more that you NEED to hear about.
Ya got nothing that I need,
___ not even schneeds ( Lorax ? )
Ya got everything wrong
__ about "this article is *wrong* "
Namaste
After watching all the videos I still can't be sure. I certainly saw some provocation from both sides.
Amy did cross the barrier knowing she wasn't supposed to, but where was she going? Did she see something she wanted to cover? Something happening? Was the response by the police to her crossing the line too quick and too physical? I think it was from what I could see.
And as suggested above, she did want to be arrested, isn't it pure stupidity to give her what she wants?
I think that since I can't determine what happened from looking at the videos for myself, I'll go with Amys report of how things happened. Beides their release without charge tells me the police made a mistake.
I can't take a few incidents where police got out of hand or where some of the protestors went overboard smashing windows wiyhout provocation and conclude all dissent in America is quashed and the press is silenced. Amy seems to be doing a good job of being less than silent if you ask me.
The police didn't make a mistake here. Don't get me wrong, anyone can be a cop and lots of yahoos are cops and security guards.
I do like law and order myself. Unfortunately, The police generally, are servants of power, not the people.
Regarding Amy's arrest, I haven't seen the videos. I've seen videos of the aftermath of police home invasions on kids who were going to peacefully protest. So I'll have to check for links. But it occurs to me that we aren't trying terribly hard to see this fully from all angles. If there was a rule that stated that requests for people like Amy to see the boss had to be met, you know very well that activists would take advantage of it. This may seem silly, but I paint the picture to make my point, rather than to suggest it could happen. Imagine a protest crowd much larger than the police line and you have such a rule in place. One activist after another says "Take me to your boss," whatever he or she's called. And the officer has to oblige. Then another protester arrives and makes the same request, pulling another officer/escort off the line. That continues until the line is gone.
I'm sure that the police have considered these things and have already considered such a comic scenario, but they would have looked at it much differently than we are. Is it possible for us to meet midway here? Can there not be some sort of orderly, reasonable way for the police in a such a situation to respond positively to the request for someone to see who's in charge?
If an Amy Goodman has to cross some line to get to the police to make that request, Perhaps the police, who, along with others, are always videotaping (What's the proper 'digital' term?) stuff can have a rule that allows that once provided that the crowd is in agreement with the choice of spokesperson? I don't know. What would they have to fear from that? There shouldn't be any good opportunities for abuse by any side in that. It just takes good intentions. It would be nice if the police were solely on the side of law and order, rather than the corporatocracy's law and order.
Thanks for your insightful post. Unfortunately, there are those here who refuse to consider the view of the police. The police are armed thugs, and that is that, end of discussion. The protesters are law abiding citizens, and that is that, end of discussion. Anyone even suggesting the possibilty of something else is a fascist, and that is that. Ironic, these tactics of attempting to squelch free speech and debate, coming from those who claim to be championing the same. Fortunately not everyone here is like that.
Insightful post? He just said "I haven't seen the videos."... Of course to you it is insightful, given your distain for logic and reason. Go read the Wall Street Journal. You clearly do not consider yourself a progressive or care about anything other than profit, greed, fetuses... or whatever else is on the 'conservative agenda'.
"He just said "I haven't seen the videos."... "
I wasn't refering to anything about the video. There was nothing in my comments to suggest that I was. There were other points made in his post if you had read past the first couple sentences.
"You clearly do not consider yourself a progressive "
That is quite true. I am a Liberal.
"care about anything other than profit, greed, fetuses... "
That was completely out of line, you haven't read anything by me on those topics.
hahahahah----------------Lovely-----------DENIAL--------It's cute that you still believe----------hahahaha---------------------lizard