Nancy Soderberg was deputy national security advisor and an ambassador to the United Nations in the Clinton administration. Today, she has an Op-Ed in the Los Angeles Times defending the FISA bill and telecom amnesty. The entire Op-Ed is just a regurgitation of the same trite, vague talking points which the political elite are using to justify this bill, accompanied by the standard invocations of "National Security" which our Foreign Policy elite condescendingly toss around to justify whatever policy they're claiming is necessary to protect us. But it's the language that she uses -- and the brazenness of the lying (and that's what it is) to justify this bill -- that's notable here.
It's notable because the political establishment is not only about to pass a patently corrupt bill, but worse, are spouting -- on a very bipartisan basis -- completely deceitful claims to obscure what they're really doing. This is what Soderberg says is what happened:
The Senate is dragging its feet because the compromise bill's opponents -- mostly Democrats -- want also to punish the telecommunications companies that answered President Bush's order for help with his illegal, warrantless wiretapping program. That is the wrong target. In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the White House directed telecommunications carriers to cooperate with its efforts to bolster intelligence gathering and surveillance -- the administration's effort to do a better job of "connecting the dots" to prevent terrorist attacks. In its review of the effort, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that the administration's written requests and directives indicated that such assistance "had been authorized by the president" and that the "activities had been determined to be lawful."
We now know that they were not lawful. But the companies that followed those directives are not the ones to blame for that abuse of presidential power.
I would really like to know where people like Soderberg get the idea that the U.S. President has the power to "order" private citizens to do anything, let alone to break the law, as even she admits happened here. I'm asking this literally: how did this warped and distinctly un-American mentality get implanted into our public discourse -- that the President can give "orders" to private citizens that must be complied with? Soderberg views the President as a monarch -- someone who can issue "orders" that must be obeyed, even when, as she acknowledges, the "orders" are illegal. That just isn't how our country works and it never was. We don't have a King who can order people to break the law. I have no doubt that people like Nancy Soderberg are spending the July 4 weekend paying shallow homage to the Founding, all the while being completely ignorant of or indifferent to the principles they pretend to celebrate. Just compare her claim that telecoms were justified, even required, to comply with the President's "order" to break the law with Thomas Paine's view, set forth in his 1776 revolutionary pamphlet Common Sense concerning how our country was supposed to work:
But where says some is the King of America? I'll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal Brute of Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve as monarchy, that in America the law is King. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be King; and there ought to be no other.
Nancy Soderberg and the rest of our political establishment about to immunize telecoms for having broken the law simply don't believe in those principles. And they're saying so explicitly. To them, the President's order to break the law both should and must be obeyed. Where did they learn that? So much of this comes from the constant fetishizing of the President as the Supreme Leader, "our" Commander-in-Chief, rather than -- as the Constitution explicitly states -- "commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States." In the U.S., private actors don't have government "commanders" who can "order" or "direct" them to do anything. Even soldiers, for whom the President is actually the Commander-in-Chief, are prohibited from obeying unlawful orders. Yet here is Nancy Soderberg -- in tandem with the rest of the political establishment -- claiming that private telecoms were justified, even compelled, to obey unlawful "orders" from the President, and are therefore entitled to be immunized from consequences.
Beyond that, her mentality reveals a profound ignorance of privacy laws and the history of spying abuses in the this country. Soderberg repeats the standard Democratic excuse for immunizing telecoms -- that telecoms are "the wrong target" because "the government should be held responsible, not private industry," and thus, "the companies that followed those directives are not the ones to blame for that abuse of presidential power."
This is all based on the false claim that privacy laws such as FISA were meant to restrict Government conduct, not those of telecoms. The exact opposite is true. FISA and other laws which the telecoms broke -- not just after 9/11, but for many years -- were written specifically to restrain how telecoms cooperate with Government spying requests. As Cindy Cohn, lead counsel for Electronic Frontier Foundation, explained when I interviewed her last October:
We brought the case only against AT&T because AT&T has an independent duty to you, its customers, to protect your privacy. This is a very old duty, and if you know the history of the FISA law, you'll know that it was adopted as a result of some very deep work done by the Church Committee in Congress, that revealed that Western Union and the telegraph companies were making a copy of all telegraphs going into and outside the U.S. and delivering them to the Government. So this was one of the big outrages uncovered by the Church Committee -- in addition to the rampant surveillance of people like Martin Luther King.
As a result of this, Congress very wisely decided that it wasn't sufficient to simply prevent the Government from listening in on your calls - they had to create an independent duty for the telecom carries not to participate in illegal surveillance.
So they are strictly forbidden from handing over your communications and communications records to the Government without proper legal process.
Contrary to what the Nancy Soderbergs of the world want people to believe, these laws enacted by the American people in order to prevent spying abuses weren't only directed at the Government but specifically at the telecom industry as well. The whole point was to compel telecoms by force of law to refuse illegal Government "orders" to allow spying on their customers. That's why Qwest and others refused to "comply", but the telecoms that were hungry for extremely lucrative government contracts agreed to break the law. They did it because, motivated by profit, they chose to, not because they were compelled. Breaking the law on purpose and then profiting from the lawbreaking is classic criminal behavior. The conduct which those laws were designed to make illegal -- and which they unambiguously outlawed -- is exactly what the telecoms did here. * * * * *
Nancy Soderberg shouldn't be singled out. She's just disseminating the settled-upon talking points of the Democratic establishment and media elite in justifying this bill -- the same basic ones that pervade the manipulative and at times misleading statement issued by Barack Obama on Friday. She's speaking from the same script. But Soderberg's formulation is particularly artless and she thus advances statements which are just inexcusably false, so flagrantly and knowingly false that they're just offensive to read. She writes:
But what's most objectionable to some Democrats is a provision that provides telecommunications companies accused of past wrongdoing the right to have their cases reviewed in district court.
As everyone acknowledges, this bill effectively compels the district courts to dismiss the lawsuits against telecoms without any examination of whether the law was broken. Yet, in praising this bill, she says the bill gives telecoms "the right to have their cases reviewed in district court" -- as though they're being denied that "right" now, and as though the bill restores that right. Is it even possible to describe telecom immunity more dishonestly, with more Orwellian deceit, than that?
Clearly, the intelligence community cannot succeed in the war on terrorism -- cannot really connect the dots -- without help from the private sector. Congress must protect those companies so they can and will help, when it's necessary.
Under the law -- both the current FISA and the new bill -- telecoms are legally required to comply with lawful requests from the Government. They don't have the option to "refuse to cooperate." What she's actually saying here is indescribably Orwellian -- that telecoms had the obligation to obey Bush's illegal orders to allow government spying, but they have the option to ignore legal warrants to do so. That's exactly backwards -- there is no danger that telecoms will "refuse to cooperate" because they are required to do so when the government requests are legal.
Without such protection, phone and Internet companies, if they cooperated at all, would do so on a case-by-case basis, with their own lawyers exercising lawyer-like caution.
What she snidely dismisses as "lawyer-like caution" exercised on "a case-by-case basis" is called "obeying the law." That's what we want people to do; that's the whole purpose of law.
The bill passed by the House will prevent any repeat of that wrong, but it also lets those companies off the hook for past actions.
The reason the President broke the law was because he claimed that he has the power under Article II to ignore Congressional statutes restricting eavesdropping. He still claims that power, and this law does nothing to address that. It does the opposite: by putting an end to the pending lawsuits against the telecoms, it ensures that this Article II theory of presidential omnipotence will continue undisturbed -- both for the current President and for the next ones. To assert that this law does anything meaningful to address the Bush/Addington/Yoo theory of presidential lawbreaking that gave rise to this scandal is simply false. It blocks the only avenue for adjudicating the central cause of presidential lawbreaking, thus ensuring its continuation.
The compromise bill satisfies both sides: Under congressional oversight, it puts the responsibility for past surveillance squarely on the administration, where it belongs, and allows the courts to determine the legality of these actions.
This is the most flagrantly dishonest claim she makes, which is really saying something. The bill does the exact opposite of what she claims. It does not "allow[] the courts to determine the legality of these actions." It bars the courts from doing so in the case of telecoms, while ensuring that the Bush administration remains protected from judicial review by all sorts of procedural obstacles such as "standing" and "state secrets" that Congress is choosing to do nothing to address. The bill thus ensures that what Soderberg admits is lawbreaking by both the Government and telecoms will never be addressed or resolved by a court of law. It shields the lawbreakers from accountability in court. That's its whole purpose. She has to know that, and yet here she is, telling people that this bill is a just and good policy because it "allows the courts to determine the legality of these actions." Can anyone coherently deny that it's outright lying to claim that this bill "allows the courts to determine the legality of these actions" when it does the exact opposite?
* * * * *
What all of this is really about -- the reason why political elites like Nancy Soderberg are so eager to defend it -- is because they really do believe that lawbreaking isn't wrong, that it doesn't deserve punishment, when engaged in by them rather than by commoners. People who defend telecom immunity or who say that it's not a big deal are, by logical necessity, adopting this view: "Our highest political officials and largest corporations shouldn't face consequences when they break our laws as long as they claim it was for our own good." That's the destructive premise that lies at the heart of this deeply corrupt measure, the reason it matters so much. Just like the pardon of Nixon, the protection of Iran-contra criminals, and the commutation of Lewis Libby's sentence, this bill is yet another step in cementing a two-tiered system of justice in America where our highest political officials and connected elite can break our laws with impunity.
Protecting government and corporate elite from flagrant lawbreaking is what our own political establishment always claimed was the hallmark of third-world, under-developed tyrannies. This 1998 essay by Thomas Carothers of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- in the ultimate establishment organ, Foreign Affairs -- was entitled "The Rule of Law Revival," and argues optimistically that the "rule of law" has now become the centerpiece, the prime consensus, for most international relations and has been recognized as the linchpin for third-world countries developing into functioning democracies. It speaks for itself in terms of what the Nancy Soderbergs, Jay Rockefellers, Fred Hiatts, Dick Cheneys and all their establishment comrades are doing to our country by acting to cover-up the single most flagrant act of Bush lawbreaking and immunizing the key lawbreakers:
LEGAL BEDROCK THE RULE of law can be defined as a system in which the laws are public knowledge, are clear in meaning, and apply equally to everyone. They enshrine and uphold the political and civil liberties that have gained status as universal human rights over the last half-century. . . . Perhaps most important, the government is embedded in a comprehensive legal framework, its officials accept that the law will be applied to their own conduct, and the government seeks to be law-abiding. . . .
The primary obstacles to such reform [in the Third World] are not technical or financial, but political and human. Rule-of-law reform will succeed only if it gets at the fundamental problem of leaders who refuse to be ruled by the law. Respect for the law will not easily take root in systems rife with corruption and cynicism, since entrenched elites cede their traditional impunity and vested interests only under great pressure. . . .
Type three reforms aim at the deeper goal of increasing government's compliance with law. A key step is achieving genuine judicial independence. . . . But the most crucial changes lie elsewhere. Above all, government officials must refrain from interfering with judicial decision-making and accept the judiciary as an independent authority.
Our Congress, with the political and media elite cheering, is about to violate every one of these principles. They are taking away from the judiciary the power to adjudicate allegations of lawbreaking. They are creating a two-tiered system of justice in which our most powerful corporations can break the law with impunity and government officials remain immune from consequences. And they are, in unity, spewing rank propaganda to the commoners -- who continue to be subjected to the harsh punishment for violations of the law and one of the world's most merciless justice systems -- in order to convince them that granting license to our political and corporate elites to break the law is necessary for their own Good and for their Safety. * * * *
Following numerous requests from those who contributed to our campaign against those responsible for this FISA and telecom amnesty travesty, we are in the process of preparing a full-page ad -- highlighting how false are the claims being made to justify this bill and the reasons it is so corrupt -- to run this week in The Washington Post (assuming it is accepted) and other similar venues.
Glenn Greenwald was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book "How Would a Patriot Act?," a critique of the Bush administration's use of executive power, released in May 2006. His second book, "A Tragic Legacy", examines the Bush legacy.
© Salon.com
Delicious
Digg
StumbleUpon
Newsvine
Facebook
Google
Yahoo
Technorati
36 Comments so far
Show Alltailcap, you are correct!
lwhunt330 July 7th, 2008 1:23 pm writes: "The Democrats simply don't have an answer yet to our terrible government and aren't about to change it."
-The DemocRATS are the government. They control both houses of Congress!
"They haven't figured out yet that it doesn't matter."
-so true, it matters only in small degrees, but not in the big scheme of things: 90,000 troops vs. 160,000 troops, 25 yrs war vs. 100 yrs war
Both are unacceptable because we don't want war!
There are still those hangers-on clinging to the delusion that abandoning Obama because he doesn't give a shit about the US Constitution, will just give McCain the victory. They haven't figured out yet that it doesn't matter. Obama just showed us that there really isn't any difference between the two and things will go on as business as usual no matter which one gets elected. This is what the last week has shown us in case there are any left with their rose-colored blinders on. The Democrats simply don't have an answer yet to our terrible government and aren't about to change it.
jcrumb July 7th, 2008 12:45 pm has bragging rights on having the biggest balls. My hat's off to you jcrumb!
I have three kids and do not have the balls to risk jail time and foster care for them. In that sense I guess I am a weasel, a hypocrite and a coward. Sorry about that.
When ....WHEN..are you people..gonna WAKE UP!..You are paying for these programs...I like the phrasology used by Bornfreeman in the post above.."THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES SUPOERHEROES.."..
Nice!..And SO TRUE..but these "superheroes"..these deluded ASSHOLES that think that they are doing gawds work by spying and thugging up the lives of others..with no more justification than that they can..and can get away with it..well.these "Programs" are being paid for by...Y-O-U!
When will you all wake up and take a real STAND..and stop FINANCING the end of your very freedom? WHEN?
I am..at a loss to understand how you..ALL OF YOU..can.."Understand" the danger..the REAL THREAT of these programs..this ..really AMAZING reality that is happening before our very eye's..that it is GOING...the Constitution is..GOING ..GOING......GONE!..and you..CONTINUE TO PAY FOR IT..TO PAY THE SALLERIES OF THE SNITCHES..THE TORTURERS..THE KILLERS..THE KIDNAPPERS..THE PEOPLE COMING UP WITH THE PLANS..THE SCHEMES..THOSE CLERKS SITTING IN FRONT OF MONITORS ALL DAY LOOKING AT PHONE CALLS WITHOUT A WARRANT OR ANY OVERSIGHT...
YOU PAY FOR ALL OF IT..WHY?..WHY? WHY?
It is time we impose..well I alrady am..ECONOMIC SANCTIONS..I am taking that stand..and the "risks" involved...I am no longer going ot live in fear..come what may..I can no longer RATIONALIZE AWAY..my ONE and only REAL power..the POWER OF THE PURSE..I will NOT pay the salleries of these self-rightous assholes..these FEDERAL LOYALIST ARMIES OF CLERKS AND BADGE CARRYING SCUM..I WILL NO LONGER PAY THEIR SALLERIES..I WILL NO LONGER HELP TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE OF A TORTURER..OF SNITCHES...OF THOSE RESPONSABLE FOR DESTROYING...WITH IMPUNITY AND DELIGHT...MY FREEDOMS..I WILL.....NOT!..I WILL NOT!..
If you pay..if you continue to pay for this..to financially support the destruction of the world and of your very freedoms...then you are COMPLICIT in thse crimes..you are a COLLABORATOR...pure and simple..you call them NAZI'S..well...would you PAY the NAZI'S to do what they did...??...YOU WOULD!......YOU....ARE!...wow!
WHY? WAKE UP!
Stop paying...or hold your tongue..if you rail against this reality..and then make it possible..you are nothing more than a hypocrite..
Hey..what is that sound? OH ..it is the sound of all those rationalizations clicking and whirring away...what a clanging!...the only sound SHOULD be..ALARM BELLS AND ACTION!!!!!!!!!!!
Live free or die...
I guess most of you..will simply curl up and ...after all..that's the least "risky" option..aint it...
We the Sheeple of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Corporate State, establish Cronyism, insure domestic Subservience, provide for the Political and Social Elites, promote Low Wages, and create Deficits Untold for ourselves and our Posterity, do abrogate and dissolve this Constitution of the United States of America.
lisa3210peace July 7th, 2008 2:48 am writes: I have an impossible time reconciling any action, no matter how principled, if it helps the Republiscum.
What is the difference between Republiscum and DemoRATscum?
In what way have the DemocRATS thwarted the Pug's agenda?
1) DemocRATS authorized the war
2) DemocRATS funded and continue to fund the illegal/invasion/occupation
3) DemocRATS refuse to impeach Bush Co. for a host of crimes
4) DemocRATS haven't even censured Bush Co.
5) DemocRATS support retroactive immunity for powerful lawbreakers
6) Insert your favorite DemocRATic Party capitulation here:_____________
The DemocRATS now control the Congress and all that is needed to stop the war is 41 resolute Senators to filibuster against it as Republicans do against DemocRATS. The DemocRATS have supported the Republican Scum agenda faithfully. Why should we vote for DemocRATS?
DemocRATic Party apologists: List the accomplishments of the DemocRATS in the last 8yrs or since they took over the Congress and list reasons why they deserve our votes. Do not list reasons to not vote for Republicans, only the reasons to vote for DemocRATS.
Is your only argument lesseroftwoevilism, which always gives us ever right wingish lessers like Clinton? Do you have anything stronger than lesseroftwoevilism which is a weak agument. Lesseroftwoevilism means you vote for a demon over the Devil. That's weak.
Lets just suppose I am a politicain campaigning for an elected office . Getting elected depends on public opinion and the other side owns all the media . Radio , TV , print . What are my chances ?
RE: GREENWALD ARTICLE TO NON-ELITE NEWSPAPERS vs WASHINGTON POST
frank1569 July 6th, 2008 2:19 pm
"GG should be placing...ads in the papers actual Americans might actually read...especially the "Quick" version[s]...distributed on the transit system free daily...That's the target audience - American citizens who have no idea what the hell's going on....
"Until we create an aware and outraged public, our so-called leaders will continue to do whatever the hell they want."
Frank makes a good point. No doubt - as Little Brother notes - there are money problems placing ads/editorials in such papers. And probably other obstacles (editorial policy agreements with advertisers in free dailies? right wing editors?).
Nonetheless, getting a message out to a greater public remains a basic problem for American progressives. And, therefore - beyond this article - some progressive group should devote itself to the problem: are there liberal editors w/'ad' or 'editorial' space to bestow? or does it come down to money/donations? etc.
The orders Soderberg is referring to are legally valid documents known as "executive orders" which cover areas of the law not recorded as legislation. The current FISA bill affirms that FISA alone is the exclusive source of law for executively-authorized wiretapping, not executive orders.
This really is "Clear And Present Danger" . Just think of what is going to happen if his friend succeeds him in office .
Hypothetically, what would happen if a third party candidate got, say ten million votes? This would consititute fabulous success.
And McCain would be elected president.
I am principled. But a pragmatic realist too.
I have an impossible time reconciling any action, no matter how principled, if it helps the Republiscum.
Question? What if immunity was not granted?
How much blood would spill?
I hope Obama is picking his fights,
And is just trying to get elected where he can do a little good,
And I hope he defeats McInsane. The Bomber? Please.
I know my opinion is unpopular here. And I know this; every CD post is scanned/saved by 'them.'
**** them.
Peace to you all.
Has anyone else heard reports of the spectre of a very sad- and angry-looking old man in ancient Greek garb carrying a lantern through all the corridors of all the federal buildings in DC for the last several decades?
Glenn Greenwald- Hits a homer! He methodically picks Nancy Soderberg apart, KUDOS- Well done!
Nancy Soderberg is a RAT, and probably a DemocRAT.
presidential omnipotence will continue undisturbed — both for the current President and for the next ones.
-maybe that's why Obama supports it
Now that Glenn has picked Nancy apart, perhaps the bones can be fed to RATS!
Don't vote for DemocRATS! Go Ralph, Cynthia McKinney, or 3rd parties, ABDR (anybody but a DemocRATic-Republican)
Nancy "The Sod" Soderberg is just another bought out mouthpiece for the neo-con fascist elites who want ultimate control of the people.
Obama has already said that he will vote for FISA for the sake of national security. He blatantly says to his credits that, "I'm ready to take my lumps for this position."
Why is Obama prepared to take his lumps? Because he knows full well what side his bread is buttered on and it isn't the side of the BIll of Rights, the U.S. Constitution or the side of ethics and morality. He is getting more and more arrogant with the buttering of his bread by the corporate, military, mainstream media complex.
A choice between McCain and Obama is simply a choice between the lesser of two evils. But when is the progressive community going to realize that it cannot get from the Democratic Party what it wants? The Progressive community needs to form a third party. Maybe then the 15% or 20% it receives each election, though it won't elect its choices, will begin to galvanize more clearly a position in American culture and politics that the mainstream politicans and media refuse to report.
Maybe then the Progressive Party's candidate will garner enough power to be included in the debates so that the American people can hear a clear statement of an important part of America that is either traditionally demeaned or ignored.
In the meantime, a vote for Nadar/Gonzalez would begin to show to the Tweedledum and Tweedledee Demorats and Republithugs that there is a moral and ethical part of America that have not sold out to all the hype and bullshit.
You know sometimes I think Naomi Kleins "shock doctrine" can be flipped on its head.
The warnings continue to come that to not support Obama will result in Mccain winning the election and things will be orders of magnitude worse.
Maybe thats exactly what the American people need to wake from their stupor. Maybe they will not wake up and demand real change until they are so shocked as to how bad it gets, they can no longer hide behind finger pointing at other parties, or calls of being "Un_american" or claims that "America is the greatest freest country in the world".
Maybe the shock of total tyranny is what is needed to free yourselves from the powers that be.
@ Kolea---
Excellent questions, for which I have no answers. Except that it seems to me that what GG is outlining here and elsewhere is a case for reinvoking the Declaration of Independence.
Glenn Greenwald would seem to be bearing witness to the end of the United States as we have known it. Yes, there has been illegal skulduggery for decades, but previously when exposed (as in the Church Committee Hearings) it was forfeit. Today, the fuckers are embracing it, and I include Obama in the epithet.
I know a lot of Rednecks who have computers and they know how to use them.
To paraphrase Shakespeare, first kill all the Republicans. Then kill all the goddam Democrats.
Imagine, meanwhile, returning to HARDCOPY Postal Service, which would complicate the overseers no end. Opening an envelope is a lot harder than invading Email. I know Postal People who believe in the Constituton and the Bill of Rights...
This will end up before the Supreme Court, presided by a Fascist. Anthony Kennedy could be assassinated.
-30-
If you don't stop the warrantless surviellance now, grant no immunity , and allow for the courts to award damages to the victoms , it will become a moot issue.
Why?
Because the administration and congress will find new ways to protect their gravy train.
Also, they are the only ones benifiting by illegal data being collected.
450 billion dollars in 5 years on private corporate armys of computer collection and ground surviellance.
Sure , you can believe that it is just electronic data, phone calls and internet activity if you want.
But I live in the real world, and comunity watch groups and the IAFF ( FireFighters) are tied at the hip to provide ground surviellance to law enforcement.They don't need warrants because they are not law enforcment, and there is no law against people following people.Unless you can prove that you are being stalked by someone that wants to hurt you.
Gang Stalking by privatley funded corporations and the elite has been on the rise since the 90's , and now they have gone anti-terrorist as a disguise to do the dirty work for those in power with major agendas.Like global expansion.
Grant money is flying out of the DHS coffers to build nation wide spy networks.Groud surviellance.In local communitys.By the way, the whos who in each community are in on it.Shameful, doctors , lawyers, judges, mayors, wealthy local businessmen, are all in on this warrantless surviellance. What a POWER TRIP.
I had 5-6 Verizon trucks follow me every day for 6 months, and all kinds of vehicles with IAFF stickers,Sherif Department stickers, military stickers. This was harresment and torture and they did not care, they were vacationing in Florida and it was paid for by your tax dollars.
I AM STILL HERE, AND THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN UNCONSTITUTIONAL THUGS, they used me for practice.
I want damages, but I can't prove any of this without the Verizon records, if they get immunity , thousands of Americans who have been tortured and damaged will never have thier day in court.
But , I can thank King George and the USA Patriot ACT for this because it is part of Home Land Security spy network 101 indoctrination.
Thats the real dirty secret that would be forced into the open by lawsuits.Every Community in America would have to explain the new DHS watch group system. IT is horrifying.
These people think they are superheros fighting crime,by infringing on your 4th amendment. NO WARRANTS.
They are vigilante groups, and thats how Hitler gained massive power in Germany.
I can see the future , America , land of Natzis.
That is why they should not get Immunity.
We must save our Country ,our Constitution , and our Democracy.
Kolea July 6th, 2008 3:32 pm
Thank you, Glenn. You are doing valuable work
**************************************************************
The current FISA appears to allow widespread "data-mining" of electronic transmissions, provided there is an assertion of some remote "foreign" connection involved. Though I am skeptical that even a remote foreign connection will, in practice, be required if there is absolutely no oversight.
If the FISA court already gave them everything they wanted,
*************************************************************************
kOLEA, How about you tell me which section, subsection with number and capitol letter along with uncapped letters.
Tell me where you got the info. You should have it handy.
"manipulative and at times misleading" sums up Obama to a "t".
It's certainly sadly the case that in all of the hullabaloo over the New, Improved FISAâ„¢, everyone is happy to overlook the substantial constitutional defects in Good Old FISA Classic.
As noted, at best FISA is still a Star Chamber that exists as an opaque tumor in what is supposed to be a transparent rule of law. But, hey! Beggars can't be choosers.
Kolea said: "Given that the "old FISA" already served as a rubberstamp for government requests, indicates to me the Bush admin (plus, apparently, a lot of Democrats) want to be totally unrestrained in eavesdropping on phone and data transmissions without having to document "probable cause" or even, "reasonable suspicion.""
This is THE important observation. It should be clear that what they got from the telecoms was "who called whom." They established the structure of the social networks. What they now want is "what is the content of the messages that exist among these networks." And obviously they cannot scour these messages with the telecoms as an intermediary.
What they want is to create such a sense of fear, a la 1984, so that everyone knows, implicitly or explicitly, that anything they say, ever, is going to be recorded and saved away. It will be used against you in a court of law, if they even bother with the courts. Most likely, it will be mainly used to identify troublemakers.
When this bill passes, and it most likely will, despite all manner of objections from the peasants, it will be entirely fair to say that we no longer have anything approximating freedom.
If one looks at other countries that have gone through this process, what follows after the surveillance state is formally instituted is the beginning of the "dissapearances."
Anyone feel strongly enough about this to cancel their phone and internet service as a way of protest?
This is hard, impenetrable, cryptic and tedious reading: the kind of stuff we used to call the "small print".
It never counts unless you happen to be the one with the wrong phone or phone call ...to hell. I've got to thank Glenn and his cohorts for taking on this battle for the truth. It's not going to be easy--even the senatorssssss and repsssssss for the most part get lost in the reading of this crap.
I'm against FISA, period. If we keep it simple, then even the cops will know what they're doing. You wait for the warrant. You don't go over the fence like a Furman.
One more point: not likely a skilled terrorist organization would use such a vulnerable form of communication. More likely a pay phone, smoke signals, or better yet, some whispers in a crowded strip club...where no one would notice.
I'll never vote for my congressman again after the house passed FISA - the senate is next.
shakker 4:17 pm "Those not voting for Obama are making McCain more likely." Sorry. Two choices is NEVER a choice, but it is an ultimatum. Bush-Lite, or straight Bush. Not a choice. An ultimatum. Vote BHO you get chains with a happy face. With McCain you just get the chains (and maybe an RDIF chip).
Slaves either way.
Those not voting for Obama are making McCain more likely. This is the problem with politics in America. It is too hard to get on the ballot in enough precincts, states, or whatever to be a viable candidate.
We are squeezed into two candidates. There are differences between these two just as there were between Carter, Reagan and Bu$h the inferior, Gore. Pretending that Nader, McKinny, Kucinich (my favorite), or anybody else is going to win is silly and dangerous.
If the day before the election both candidates died, Nader, McKinny, or Kucinich still would not be president.
Obama is all tapped out. I can no longer support any politician who would endorse the FISA legislation. I will do my best to see that they are defeated. Feingold and a few other real patriots got it right.
Obama - he had me at hope and change. He lost me with lies and deceit.
Thank you, Glenn. You are doing valuable work in remaining consistent and onpoint through this struggle. In an easy to read commentary, you cut through the obfuscations and spin being thrown up by both wings of the bi-partisan political elite.
Standing up to Obama, answering him point for point, has helped lay out clearly to him what choices are available to him. And it has allowed us to watch as he makes those choices.
Just as the drive to war against Iraq has now been re-written to say "everybody" believed the lies of the Bush administration, while many did not, we cannot allow the "official" discourse on FISA to obscure what is really going on, thereby excusing the connivance of prominent Democrats in the expansion of illegal government spying powers.
Given that the "old FISA" already served as a rubberstamp for government requests, indicates to me the Bush admin (plus, apparently, a lot of Democrats) want to be totally unrestrained in eavesdropping on phone and data transmissions without having to document "probable cause" or even, "reasonable suspicion." It also suggests that the Total Information Awareness (TIA) project envisioned by Admiral Poindexter, was never really abandoned, just pulled back, re-packaged and being introduced under a different name.
The current FISA appears to allow widespread "data-mining" of electronic transmissions, provided there is an assertion of some remote "foreign" connection involved. Though I am skeptical that even a remote foreign connection will, in practice, be required if there is absolutely no oversight.
If the FISA court already gave them everything they wanted, why the big fight to remove the final, minimal oversight. That is the question that must be answered.
That, plus this one: What are the options available to citizens who strongly prefer the next president be Obama instead of McCain, but who are deeply disturbed by his awful position on FISA?
The absence of bad laws by itself does not make a free society. It's also the absence of good laws.
Let We the People make the laws we live by:
www.nationalinitiative.us
Once again I ask, by what right do "they" govern if not the US Constitution? No Constitution = no legally sitting government. These stooges and mouth pieces are all criminals against the Constitution, subject to the punishments set down by said document.
Since it appears that these folks in charge no longer appear to be following the Constitution, nor many other treaties and laws of what was the United States of America, who is it that you are showing allegiance to? At what point will "We the People" understand that what was our legal government has been taken over? And, what will or are "We the People" going to do about it?
Might we learn from history, might we reread the US Constitution, might we come together for another Constitutional Convention to rework and reinstitute "Our Constitution"? An Ol' piece of paper which stated it is not only your right but your duty to do so? Are we Sovereign Individuals endowed with God given rights or have we become lambs to the slaughter, cannon fodder for the corporations of MIC, ignorant sheeople eating the grass down to the roots only then to awaken to the fact that the green fields are gone, and now Soilent Green is sheeople?
Metaphors yes and mixed as well yet somewhere there is a point.
Awaken folks and decide what you are willing to do and put up with. Talk with friends, neighbors, and even strangers(who are only friends you haven't met yet) ask if they too are ready to shed the shackles of fear and ignorance.
If we lack anything in this country it is but will, intent, and a path to follow. Isn't it about time that we quit following criminals and agendas which are bringing America down, and instead Reawaken and Reinvent and Restore the great American dream as well as our Constitution?
I've heard that this September 11 there are to be many great gatherings of "WE THE PEOPLE" all over this country, may this be the path we are seeking?
frank1569, FWIW Glenn is working with a limited budget obtained from individual donors. I think it's around $350K at the moment. So he and his fellow organizers are agonizing over how to best spend these limited funds.
As Glenn notes, the decision to run a WaPo ad was made after Glenn resisted the idea (in part for the same objections you raise), but received a significant number of requests to reconsider.
I wasn't one of those appealing to him to run that WaPo ad, but it's commendable that-- unlike certain presumptive nominees-- he not only "listens" to his supporters, but yields to their collective wishes, even if it's against his better judgement.
If George Soros or some other reputable source wants to add a few million to the kitty, I think Glenn would be happy to organize a national ad campaign. And he won't hire the likes of Bob Shrum or Dick Morris to design it.
Why is GG wasting his time running ads in the WPost, which is hardly read by anyone outside of the "elite" bubble? What's the plan - to try and convince our "leaders" the err of their ways?
Dude, isn't it clear? That ain't never gonna happen.
Instead, GG should be placing said ads in the papers actual Americans might actually read - like, USA Today and the Dallas Morning News (and especially the "Quick" version which is widely distributed on the transit system free daily,) and the Kansas City Star and the NJ Courier-Post and the Jacksonville Daily Record and the LA Weekly and all the other "weeklies" and "Observers" nationwide. That's the target audience - American citizens who have no idea what the hell's going on behind their backs right in front of their faces.
Until we create an aware and outraged public, our so-called leaders will continue to do whatever the hell they want.
GG should be targeting Teen Vogue and Wired and Paper and other mags in the key 18-39 yo demographic. And anywhere Web-wise that fits into the same category.
Ads in the WPost and NYT et al are a total waste of money - the choir already knows the score and the "opposition" simply does not give a shit.
Representative government represents the oligarchy. Direct democracy represents We the People.
www.nationalinitiative.us
I would love to see this rebuttal appear in the LA Times editorial section. Nancy Soderberg needs to respond to the criticisms presented in this fabulous article.
The Telecoms must be very happy at the way this is turning out.