Of Weddings and Wedges

It's time people like Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council and his ilk are called out for what they are: bigots. Yes, I know many on the right, even those not foaming at the mouth about gay people, will remind us on the left that's just a liberal brand for someone expressing his religious convictions. Well, that's fine, but when are those who say equal marriage will lead to the end of western civilization, their children being "turned gay" if homosexuals are portrayed in any positvie light, and man/animal marriage going to be reminded that their rights end where those of others begin?
Since when did it become acceptable for the majority to vote on the issue of equal protection being extended to a minority, as will happen in California this November? Since when do the opinions of a group, religious or otherwise, trump the civil rights of a minority? These are legitimate questions which the nation as a whole has yet even to consider. The radical right has been given a free pass on this issue, and homosexuals have been demonized to the point of beig portrayed as something less than human, much less American citizens deserving of the same rights and privileges eveyone in this coutry should enjoy equally. With a few exceptions, the left has done a poor job in redefining the issue. Let's hope when we have a democratic president house and senate, the left will finally find its voice on this vitally important matter of civil rights.

caliwingnut June 19th, 2008 12:38 am

Is there a point to this post?
________________________________________

That was my exact thought, and I almost posted it yesterday. I'm glad it wasn't just me; thanks for the validation! ;)

I read it over twice, and concluded that the writer hoped that pulling together ambiguous bits and pieces would gel into a whole greater than the sum of the parts-- or that she had a "real" point that she was unable or unwilling to express plainly.

Thomas More said:
"The thing I simply don't understand here is why its so important for same sex couples to have the word marriage, a religious designation, attached to their union?

Whats the big deal? Isn't union the same or certainly good enough if it carries the same rights and privilages? This is a serious question, not flippant or meant to be rude."

The point is that if people WANT it they should be able to have it.

In Europe ALL marriages are civil marriages...and then people can have a religious ceremony if they want. That makes more sense to me.

Is there a point to this post?

THE LORAX: Chilling, but excellent posting. Didn't Susan Smith (who drowned 2 sons) also come from a fundamentalist religious background?

We could count all the Arab boys who volunteer their sisters for "HONOR CRIMES" on this list, too. Religion that pushes hatred or divisiveness ends up bringing about the things it should rail against.

I was thinking about the factual story of Sybil today, a young woman so tortured by her mother that she broke into a number of separate personalities. It's a famous case made into a movie that starred JoAnne Woodward as the therapist who pulls the personalities back together again. It made me think of the mindset that is given to torturing another human being. What made this young girl's mother devise torture tactics that would have today landed her a job with the U.S. military? And note, too, how of late our military and its faux equivalent, Blackwater, is being infiltrated with religious types as if their programming somehow lends a Divine right to the murder or destruction of others.

^^^^ Sorry. I was just trying to answer the question. The "your" wasn't intended as a personal affront, although I can certainly see how it might be taken as such. I should have said "except insofar as it reflects and makes apparent one's own discriminatory views."

Arvy June 18th, 2008 10:17 pm

Now thats an answer. But then you had to add a little bigotry.

But you know you, poopdeck and others need to be very careful in throwing around charges, letting your own bias and bigotry show.

As it happens, I have no particular reason to oppose same sex marriage. Nor am I the homophobic you suggest so offensively. But I'll tell you this. I'm getting pretty tired of asking a question and having sand kicked in my face. Something you nor anyone else on this site that is making a habit of it would do face to face.

I don't go around making snap judgements as to other peoples intents or thoughts unless they specifically express them.

I have begun to notice that the very people on CD that do all the complaing and are the quickest to take imagined offense are the most intolerant and apparently less educated.

If you can't tell that you hase insulted me for no reason, that you have given offense with you self appointed self satisfied position of moral superiority, let me assure you that you have.

opeluboy June 18th, 2008 6:52 pm

If you meant that for me, please be assured I have the same contempt for anyone of such shallow character.

Thomas More June 18th, 2008 6:06 pm -- 'What is so important about calling it a "marriage" rather than a "union". Where is the difference?'

It's a question of legal recognition and the privileges thereby conferred. If the relevant state laws are written so as to grant recognition to "marriage", then that's what it has to be called for all legal purposes. In any other context, it really doesn't matter much what you or anyone else calls it per se, except insofar as it reflects and makes apparent your own discriminatory views.

GKL, my question to you is why is Flanders blaming the Republicans for everything? Obviously the point I was making went way over the top of your thinking. The Democrats along with the Republicans have functioned in concert and are culpable of our state of affairs from everything to the demise of the Earth, to Iraq, the economy, to loss of our freedoms, to supporting torture by their silence, to criminal activity, and perhaps most egregious is Obama's environmental plan which is written by the Nuclear and Bio Fuel industries. Why not do some research on both? Bio fuels are has harmful to climate as are fossil fuels. Bio Fuels reduce airable land for crops thus increasing food prices world wide. As more land transitions to higher paying crops for bio fuels, food prices will soar. Nuclear has never addressed spent nuclear fuel. Obama's plan on nuclear calls for burying spent nuclear fuel in containers that will not outlive the radioactive life of the fuel. Radioactivity of the fuel lasts over 500 years and the current political solution is to bury it in Nevada where it will eventually seep into ground water supplies. If that is what you call enlightened environmental policy by Obama and his corporate handlers then by all means vote for him. Obama is OWNED by special interests to the same extent as McCain. A disturbing little fact that Flanders and her corporatate handlers inside the belt way don't want all the sheeple to hear.

Poopdeck, well, you beat me. I just celebrated 32 years of marriage to a wonderful woman. And you know, we never worried what would happen to us if gays and lesbians were allowed to marry. My brother-in-law is gay and has been in a committed relationship for almost as long as us, and I can't see that it has hurt our marriage in the least.

I do have one huge problem with their lifestyle, however.

Their home is much better decorated.

poopdeck June 18th, 2008 5:43 pm

Marriage is a religious ceremony. Though you do not need to be a religious person to be married. You are correct about multi-polygamy, but still between man and women.

"The constitution demands that too. Remember, separation of church and state?"

No my friend, it does not. It simply says that there will be no state established religion.

"the tradition of marriage is the union between one man and one woman."

That has been the tradition, no mistake about it.

But you still don't answer my question. What is so important about calling it a "marriage" rather than a "union". Where is the difference?

In any case the majority will decide this issue in the end. The Court overstepped its authority on this.

Did I see you said the big C had shown up on your doorstep?

I am married (51 years to the same woman). I was unaware until I learned from Thomas More that I might have entered into a religious designation. How funny! Of course I have not. I am an atheist. To the best of my recollection no God was present at my marriage. More obviously and perhaps deliberately confuses the right to obtain a legal, civil marriage license with a "right to have a religious marriage ceremony". The Supreme Court of California did not command religions to sanctify every marriage. Had the court done that it would have violated all sorts of no-no's of our constitution. The trade off is that religions must keep their grabbing fingers out of truly civil affairs. The constitution demands that too. Remember, separation of church and state? The fundamental issue is not what we name this union (the naming is the reddest herring on the block) but whether states can discriminate homosexual couples by denying them what has traditionally been called "a marriage license". The one I got should also be available to all homosexual couples in every state of the USA. I still have to hear a rational argument why a state can deny one. If religions want to discriminate, let them. Polls show that our young people are about to walk away from this medieval atavism.
I always have to laugh out aloud when I hear that "the tradition of marriage is the union between one man and one woman." As Tevye of "Fiddler on the Roof" discovered, traditions have the nasty habit of changing. Actually, the "tradition of marriage" started in our (so-called Western) part of the world as "one man and several women." Example: Charlemagne was a multigamist (possibly a trigamist)and that was by no means an exception then. And what about King Salomon? Josef the papa of Jesus could have legally married more than one woman! Is the "Old Testament" no longer part of the Christian "Bible?"

So, Huck, I hope you enjoy the next 4 years with President John McCain. How will he be better than Obama? Why are you blaming the Dems for everything? Are you sure you aren't Karl Rove?

"No wedge issues, like immigration."

There is no issue about immigration I'm aware of, wedge or otherwise.

The thing I simply don't understand here is why its so important for same sex couples to have the word marriage, a religious designation, attached to their union?

Whats the big deal? Isn't union the same or certainly good enough if it carries the same rights and privilages? This is a serious question, not flippant or meant to be rude.

Gotta love that Lorax!

Flanders is a huckster and a joke given that radical environmentalists regularly repudiate her chioce for president: ie Obama. Despite Gore's recent endorsement Obama's environmental plan is inimical to our Earth Mother. Despite his rhetoric to the contrary, Obama will not withdraw 100% of the troops from Iraq. Most likely, he will either start a war with Iran or if Shrub starts it for him, will carry on with it for years to come.

Wedge politics? Wake up! Maybe this dim wit has not heard yet but Nader is running for President again. Hopefully we can send a message to Flanders and her handlers in the Democratic Party that we are not going to take their milk toast, watered down, pay lip service tripe any longer.

Flander's is part of the status quo who never negatively critiques the Dems despite the fact they gave us Alieto and Roberts without Fillibuster. They funded the Iraq war have promising to end it in 2004. They joined with Republicans and suspended Habeas Corpus. They invalidated years of legal precedent with the Patriot Act: now our records our subject to government snooping without warrant. They gave us a minimum wage Bill instead of a Living Wage Bill. Pelosi has taken impeachment and investigations off the table most likely to protect Democrats from war crimes and culpability with the Bush Administration. Pelosi is one of the biggest pork barrel spenders in Congress bringing home the bacon to the tune of 180 million per year. Diane Fienstein (D) Ca. husband is a defense consultant: does anybody really doubt why she consistantly votes for the war and rattling her sword currenlty against Iran. You Cats won't her any of this from Flanders and her inside the beltway sentiments. Wake up people before it is too late. Vote Nader.

God is very active in the world and wants you to "fight evil". Here's proof:
Dena Schlosser cut off her baby's arms while listening to religious hymns.

Banita Jacks murdered her 4 children because they were possessed by demons.

Sergio Aguilar beat and stomped his son to death to rid him of demons.

John Salvi murdered 2 abortion clinic receptionists and claimed that he was the "thief on the cross with Jesus"

George W. Bush stated 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. More than one hundred thousand people are dead as a result.

Blair Donnelly stabbed his daughter to death because "God told him he wanted him to kill her"

Christopher McCuin murdered and dismembered his girlfriend, then cooked pieces of her flesh, claming that he was instructed by God to do it.

Abraham attempted to murder his son because God told him to do it.

Carolyn Schafer force fed her children prescription medication and tried to overdose because angels told her she was going to heaven with her children.

Dieudonne Tukala, a pastor, told parents that children were witches and should be beaten or sent away to be killed. One of these parents branded his child with a hot iron and stuffed chili powder into this mouth to "get the devil out" based on the pastor's instructions.

Edward Uyesugi punched his autistic son in the face more than 20 times and stuck his fingers down the boys throat to 'cast out the demons'.

Leonard Owen, a pastor, raped a woman on two separate occasions to 'drive out demons'. He said she was possessed by a sex demon and a lesbian demon. He also yelled "Release her in the name of Jesus!" as he was raping her.

Dawn Young killed her 17 month old daughter to "protect her from evil spirits".

Andrea Yates, after being driven crazy by preacher Michael Woroniecki, drowned all 5 of her children in a bathtub. Michael Woroniecki remains free and continues to spread religious corruption.

Mijailo Mijailovic stabbed Sweedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh to death because Jesus guided him to do it.

God doesn't always send his followers to commit murders. He's been known to do it himself:
"Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the Lord, and the Lord took his life." (Cf. Genesis 38:1ff).

In retrospect, God is alot like Charles Manson.

Once the ultra-left takes over the USA, perhaps ultra-right people should be sent to secret prisons as they advocate torture and inequality as well as the revoking of Habeus Corpus and find the Constitution of the USA a nuisance. Hopefully, they will receive a taste of their own medicine - as they deserve.

Meanwhile neo-conservatives and fundamentalist Christians - enjoy your defeat in California in regards to gay marriage; albeit a small defeat for you bastards! This is better than no defeat at all for you waste of space on Earth so...for your defeat it is now MY turn to feel greaful.

Remember though that it is the religious right that is making gay marriages a "wedge issue." How would Christians feel if some of their beliefs are considered "wedge issues?" Hmmmm?

As I have said time and time again, it is both fundamentalist Christians and neo-Republicans that are the biggest threat to the USA as they obviously disagree with the premise of "liberty and justice for all" for eacha nd every American and disagree strongly with such concepts as "equality" and "fairness." There is enough evidence to back up these opinions so...let us not dispute them.

The Family Research Council http://www.frc.org based in Washington DC is doing all they can to lobby, misinform, and otherwise spread their homophobic agenda. They have positioned themselves as a significant player in the California election where the gay marriage ban comes up for a statewide vote in November. If you're interested, visit their website, comment to them directly, post on their blog. It might be good for them to hear from folks who don't approve of their hateful values.

Correct: "Liberty and Justice For All." No wedge issues, like immigration.