New Poll Reveals How Unrepresentative Neocon Jewish Groups Are
A new survey of American Jewish opinion, released by the American Jewish Committee, demonstrates several important propositions: (1) right-wing neocons (the Bill Kristol/Commentary/ AIPAC/Marty Peretz faction) who relentlessly claim to speak for Israel and for Jews generally hold views that are shared only by a small minority of American Jews; (2) viewpoints that are routinely demonized as reflective of animus towards Israel or even anti-Semitism are ones that are held by large majorities of American Jews; and (3) most American Jews oppose U.S. military action in the Middle East — including both in Iraq and against Iran.
It is beyond dispute that American Jews overwhelmingly oppose core neoconservative foreign policy principles. Hence, in large numbers, they disapprove of the way the U.S. is handling its “campaign against terrorism” (59-31); overwhelmingly believe the U.S. should have stayed out of Iraq (67-27); believe that things are going “somewhat badly” or “very badly” in Iraq (76-23); and believe that the “surge” has either made things worse or has had no impact (68-30).
When asked whether they would support or oppose the United States taking military action against Iran, a large majority — 57-35% — say they would oppose such action, even if it were being undertaken “to prevent [Iran] from developing nuclear weapons.” While Jews hold views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which are quite pessimistic about the prospects for Israel’s ability to achieve a lasting peace with its “Arab neighbors,” even there, a plurality (46-43) supports the establishment of a Palestinian state.
In the realm of U.S. domestic politics, it is even clearer that right-wing neoconservatives are a fringe segment of American Jewish public opinion. By a large margin, American Jews identify as some shade of liberal rather than conservative (43-25), and overwhelmingly identify themselves as Democrats rather than Republicans (58-15). And, most strikingly, by a 3-1 margin (61-21), they believe that Democrats, rather than Republicans, are “more likely to make the right decision about the war in Iraq,” and by a similarly lopsided margin (53-30), believe that Democrats are “more likely to make the right decision when it comes to dealing with terrorism.” They have overwhelmingly favorable views of the top 3 Democratic presidential candidates, and overwhelmingly negative views of 3 out of the top 4 GOP candidates (Giuliani being the sole exception, where opinion is split).
Contrary to the bottomless obssession which most neocon pundits and office-holders have with All Matters Israel, the principal political concerns of most American Jews have nothing to do with the Middle East. Thus, they identify “economy/jobs” (22) and “health care” (19) — not Terrorism — as “the most important problem facing the U.S. today.” Still, most American Jews agree that “[c]aring about Israel is a very important part of [their] being a Jew” — a common, innocuous and indisputable attribute that typically triggers noxious charges of anti-Semitism if pointed out by those who oppose the neoconservative agenda.
One of the defining traits of war-loving neoconservatives is that their unrelenting and exclusive fixation on the Middle East places them loudly at the center of any foreign policy debates. That tenacity — combined with their reckless exploitation of “anti-Israel” and anti-Semitism accusations as instruments in their political rhetoric and their corresponding, deceitful equation of their own views with being “pro-Israel” — often casts the appearance that they are some sort of spokespeople for the “pro-Israel” agenda or the Jewish viewpoint.
Manifestly, they are nothing of the sort. Even among American Jews, they comprise only a small minority, and their generally discredited militarism is widely rejected by most Jews as well. It is always worth underscoring these points, which are so frequently (and deliberately) obscured, and this comprehensive poll provides potent — actually quite conclusive — evidence for doing so.
Glenn Greenwald was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book “How Would a Patriot Act?,” a critique of the Bush administration’s use of executive power, released in May 2006. His second book, “A Tragic Legacy“, examines the Bush legacy.
© Salon.com
Good to see this, American Jews have generally been liberal to progressive though the nationalism encouraged by Zionism has been a negative influence. As Palestinian activist Ramzy Baroud has pointed out, the most active Americans in support of the Palestinian cause and opposed to Zionism are Jews.
Somebody tell Hillary Clinton.
Somebody tell congressman Patrick Murphy, who although was swept in on the antiwar mandate, panders to Zionism, pounding those drums to attack Iran.
Somebody tell the entire Congress.
But, I don’t see, aside from the usual suspects in the US and Israel-generally referred to as “self-hating Jews” much speaking out and any criticism of Israel is still taboo.
So, I take this, along with the line that Israel warned the US not to attack Iraq, with a grain of salt.
The reactionary Jews and their organizations mentioned at the top of the article truly DO NOT represent most Jews. They certainly don’t represent me. They can all drink seawater since they are abetting the suicide of Israel (and the USA) which is what will happen as long as the Israelis think they’re playing the cavalry to the Palestinians indians. The kind of oppression the Israelis are subjecting the Palestinians to is historically self-defeating, as well as obviously immoral. Just remember that the ignorant fanatics of the Christian right hate the Jews’ guts. They presently support Israel only because of their meshugas about Armageddon and the end of the world. Empty-headed louts have been predicting the end of the world since the dawn of time. Ain’t happened yet, fools. And God didn’t create global warming.
Around this geographic area I’ve never met any liberal, non-Zionist Jews. Every last one of them (that I’ve met) claim to support local arts and local community spirit, and support the local library and give money to local charities, but they are all seem to be Bush-supporters if pressed. And you’ll never read anything concerning Israel/Palestine on the editorial page of the local newspaper. But throughout the rest of the paper it’s always the Zionist company line from AP releases. And the rich Jewish doctors make political contributions to the Republican National Committee. And the public library is filled with romance novels and war stories and biographies of Ronald Reagan and about the only progressive books on their shelves I’ve personally purchased and donated. And even then I’ve gotten resistance or they have been checked out and claimed to have been lost. Now I understand this is a so-called conservative area of the country but it’s just reactionary-lockstep as far as I’m concerned. That goes for the Jews as well as for the thousands of Christian Zionists.
In general, the fact that the decisions of the ruling elite in this country don’t match the polling data that shows what the American people want is not new. Its good to have yet another data point\talking point on the issue.
What we have is a more general failure of democratic rule. Our representatives don’t represent us. And the media does more to propagandize in favor of policy they’ve already decided they want as opposed to presenting information to a citizenry that will then make their own judgements and decisions.
Those problems go far beyond this single issue. The same can be found with health care, trade policy and jobs, the very basic concepts of the role of government in society, and all through our foreign policy.
I keep saying it, but read Naomi Klein’s book “The Shock Doctrine”. The very basic core of the book is that what the elites want for their own profit and power is very, very different from what the citizens want. Therefore, democracy, that very basic notion of a government of the people, by the people and for the people has to be one of the very first things to be destroyed.
In so, so many ways we are NOT as we are portrayed — no matter what ethnic, racial, age or gender group we belong.
That small circle of perverse power uses such stories profiling us –in order to divide and cause us to feel isolated in our views and values. These stories are also used to cause us to turn against our fellow neighbors and human beings. Over the years, the media (which has been bought up by centrailized power circles) helps to pound projected profiles of people onto people. As the saying goes “We hear it once, twice, thrice — it must be so!). the more we hear something — the more our brains come ot believe it.
It is no coincidence that large numbers of younger generations (children of the broadcast) tend to believe celebrities are the heroes of culture — having little understanding that everyday people are the real heroes in the world and in life.
We must learn to talk back — rely on our direct experience — and not allow carefully crafted stories to shape our realities. If we trace the string to where such stories are manufactured — we come to see the self-serving motives and interests that create such stories. It’s real “Wizard of Oz” stuff. These story wizards are strange creatures with very sick agendas.
These so-called non neo-con jews are heavily invested in the mass media that allows the neo-con talking points to be distributed all over the country and world.
It is time for them to show their opposition in print, radio or tv if they really do not support these neo-con types…if not, we will continue to get more of the same…
And, why does the senator from New York have to toe the Israeli policy line?
It’s called “Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is”.
I have been talkin about this all my life and it is about time the truth is coming out.
It is amazing how right wing propaganda can dominate for 60 years about this.
The truth is the truth and there is nothing they can do.
We are on a roll now.
These are a special time we all share… we are at the Crossroads of Destiny.
This is a big change.
On second thought, it’s probably the Big Money holders who are the problem. The common people still have their senses.
Those blinded with greed and power control the media and claim they represent the consensus. A SNOW JOB! Just like we are getting.
That’s why it’s important to judge people on a personal basis.
Miftin: In what geographic area are you? Just wondering because your experience mirrors mine. I’m Ohio.
The Zionists are indeed a very small minority; nevertheless, all Zionists are Jews. They only occupy the top echelons of our State Department (aka the other occupied territory). They and their bought-and-paid-for friends also occupy our Congress as well as some top policy-making positions, especially on the Middle Eastern issues.
The purpose of this article is to launder Democrats and Jews. The Jews who oppose Israel’s behavior vis-à-vis Palestinians are indeed a very small minority, or else, they have kept silent, which is the sign of consent. But those living in Israel only sign their names on bombs to be dropped on other people’s homes, as they did in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon. That said, the Jews are generally decent people, if we factor out the Palestinian issue.
The nastiest Zionists I have ever met are the right wing Christians. They believe in purifying Israel for the fulfillment of Bible prophecies. Most Jewish people are far less extremist in this sense.
Mr. Greenwald’s article is very welcome. Words and opinions however are not enough. As long as AIPAC holds such sway over the viewpoints of our Senators and Congressmen, little will change. Perhaps the American Jewish Committee could raise additional funds and apply them to counter the hegemony that AIPAC seems to hold over American politicians. That would be a very welcome change.
OK. But here’s what still bothers me about this AJC survey.
12. In the current situation, do you favor or oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state?
Favor 46
Oppose 43
Not sure 12
Alarming isn’t it?
13. In the framework of a permanent peace with the Palestinians, should Israel be willing to compromise on the status of Jerusalem as a united city under Israeli jurisdiction?
Yes 36
No 58
Not Sure 7
Surprised?
14. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement? “The goal of the Arabs is not the return of occupied territories but rather the destruction of Israel.”
Agree 82
Disagree 12
Not Sure 6
Dispicable
15. In your opinion, does the United Nations treat Israel fairly or unfairly in its deliberations?
Fairly 27
Unfairly 61
Not Sure 12
Let’s see who’s spreading this misinformation? Seems to me AIPAC et al are winning the information battle.
Why do those who were surveyed think this way? What are the reasons? That’s what’s missing and I think could explain a lot more why they answered the way they did on the Israeli-Palestine crisis.
Perhaps Israeli Jews and American Jews differ in that regard. Then, if so, why do we not see more speaking out against how they’re represented by the media? Like here, in the US, is their silence a kind of apathetic or frustrated complicity? Clearly, the recent incident in Lebanon represents a different “Jewish” faction, and and has served to further destabilize the region, as is the talk of attacking of Iran, which Joe Lieberman (a prominent Jew) seems to support. In my view all nationalism and religious identification is infantile at best and destructive/divisive at worst. For better or worse, Israeli and other Jews will be judged by the actions of a nation said to represent them. And recently those actions have been less than beneficent. Obviously, there is more than meets the eye here.
they must all be in Conn. then, because SOMEBODY keeps electing Lyin’ Joe Lieberman
YOU SAY WHY DON’T MORE JEWS SPEAK OUT?
This half Breed will tell you:
Lots of us do. And lots of us own lots of the media that runs to make a profit and goes along with common Corporate practice of not rocking the boat…. Don’t stick your neck out and it is a business interest to follow the money…. War Economy…. Rich War profiteering Wasps and Jews and folks of color too… this reality of Fear is what keeps more Jews from sticking their necks out in the big media world where one comment can get you Death threats by the hundreds….
Fear is what keeps the majority of White Anglo Saxons form getting in the firing line too.
Any Volunteers? The Folk Intelligence Bureau wants you!
I welcome more Jewish people speaking out against AIPAC, AEI, and the neocons. I also welcome more Jewish people speaking out against the hate and discrimination directed at Muslims and Arabs by these groups and people like Pipes and Emerson. Many Jews privately say these things. Problem is I don’t hear these voices enough in the mainstream press. In alternative press like in the Washington Report for Middle East Affairs and in Tikkun with Rabbi Lerner I hear these voices and I applaud them. They need a mainstream platform. Perhaps its like how it is for Muslims. Majority of Muslims have repeatedly made statements condeming terrorism and 911. Muslim leaders recently wrote a latter to the Catholic Pope calling for peace and dialogue between Christians and Muslims. CAIR is always releasing such statements against terrorism and pro-peace but they aren’t picked up enough by the mainstream press. Perhaps progressive Jews and Muslims need to come together as one and demand that their views be heard in the mainstream media.
While we’re at it lets hear from the Progressive Christians. I’m tired of radical conservatives going against Christs teaching and calling themselves Christians.
American Jews, check out Rabbi Michael Lerner:
http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner
miftin December 12th, 2007 12:41 pm wrote: “Around this geographic area I’ve never met any liberal, non-Zionist Jews.”
Miftin, same here, except that I would say “hardly ever” instead of “never”. Some Jews are honest enough to admit the immorality of what we are doing in Iraq. Most Jews, however, merely say that the job was botched; they completely ignore the moral issues. And they are very quick to call you anti-Semitic if you dare to notice that nearly all neocons are Jewish.
I’m not surprised at any survey showing that Jews have turned against the Iraq war: nobody loves a loser. It would be more interesting, and probably more revealing, to read a survey of American Jewish opinion -before- the invasion. I am betting that such a survey, if honest, would have shown overwhelming Jewish approval of the war.
Remember, Jewish approval for Israel’s most recent invasion of Lebanon was over 90% at first; but because the attack failed, hardly any Jew is now admitting to having supported it. Similarly, I have little doubt that Jews were hugely in favor of the invasion of Iraq — initially.
And why not? The U.S. was going to do for free what Israel could not have achieved at any price in blood and treasure: the total destruction of one of Israel’s major enemies in the region. Never mind that the cost to the U.S. has been immense, possibly bankrupting; Israel is far more important.
And now the neocons are desperately trying to sucker us into destroying another of Israel’s enemies: Iran. If we fall for it again, we deserve whatever happens to us.
Progressive views in general need to be heard in the mainstream media too. The word “demand” coming from someone who wants to get heard is kinda ridiculous… We should demand this and demand that…. Hey we are all struggling to get heard and fight the good fight… Don’t wait for some group or race to go do it… You my friend must do it first!
You are responsible for what comes down. Expecting the Jews or expecting any group to solve our dilemma in Life will get you nowhere but in a place where nobody will want to be around.
Shalom
Gracias por esta escritura. Muchos de mis amigos Judios tambien opinan que estar contra zionismo puede afectar negativamente la reputacion de ellos. Estos judios quieren co existir con todos, cooperar, crecer y ser respetados. Son respetados por nosotros, queremos paz, simpatia y entendimiento. Porque no?
Shalom. Paz, Mir, Peace.
TruOrange December 12th, 2007 1:19 pm
Miftin: In what geographic area are you? Just wondering because your experience mirrors mine. I’m Ohio.
Well, I’m in Milwaukee, and that’s what I see too. I did a lot of work on the last presidential campaign and the Jews here voted pretty much in block for Bush. Why? Bush would guarantee continuing the massive aid to Israel was the dominant view. But I think it was also because he would keep the pressure on Palestine.
But then, come to think of it, so would pretty much any of them. So what gives?
I have to say that looking at this critically it has the appearance to me of being just another Zionist propagandist attempt to clean many Jews’ hands. There, call me an anti-semite. It’s easy! I criticized them! Crucify me!
And here’s another criticism of many of them: you can’t be half jewish! Anybody that says they’re half jewish needs to be laughed at out loud. Judaism is NOT a nationality! If you’re half jewish, then I’m half catholic, half jewish, half Buddhist, half pagan, half everything, because I can agree with about half of anything any of them preach.
Final criticism, if the typical Jew wants to be considered open-minded they should learn to accept criticism of their belief system just like everybody else has to. We all know that it’s gotten to the point that any criticism of the Jews instantly marks one as anti-semitic. My Jewish friends know me and my views, and are alright with them (otherwise they wouldn’t be my friends), but when discussing them openly often the non-Jews will look aghast and you can see the discomfort when these subjects are broached.
If Jews want to be perceived as being liberal they should vote that way. Or is Israel/Judaism a microcosm of our whole society? America seems to be slightly more liberal, yet we can’t get a president elected. They should also be more openly critical of their Israel. Otherwise I’ll continue to call a spade a spade.
And I still can’t even get an acknowledgement from my representative when I write asking that we stop the massive aid to Israel until they learn how to play well with their neighbors.
I’d also like to ask people to consider the precedent that is set by the creation of Israel. Just because it was here before most of us were born doesn’t mean it has a right to exist. Didn’t the jews walk away from it some 2500 years ago? OK, maybe it was taken from them. When do the Native American Indians come and ask for their land back? Hmm, there is precedent after all….
I’m very skeptical of this article.
Demerara:
“These so-called non neo-con jews are heavily invested in the mass media…”
Are we? Kindly explain that to my accountant — and me, while you’re at it.
“It is time for them to show their opposition in print…”
Are you aware that you’re responding to a piece in print by a Jewish author? Irony, thy name is Demerara.
andrew.herman:
“The nastiest Zionists I have ever met are the right wing Christians.”
Try explaining that to Saila, who claims that “all Zionists are Jews.” What’s galling is not the colossal ignorance of the claim, but Saila’s need to voice it in public.
chessgames56:
“…why do we not see more [American Jews] speaking out against how they’re represented by the media?”
Catch22, thy name is chessgames56. Plenty of Jewish Americans — Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Joel Kovel, Howard Zinn, and many others — speak out against the misrepresentation of Jewish American opinion in the mainstream media. Do you honestly expect their voices to be heard in the very media they criticize? And does their exclusion from the MSM entitle you to infer that they don’t exist? Your deafness shouldn’t be interpreted as “their silence”.
dcbeltway:
“Many Jews privately say these things.”
Many Jews publicly say these things, too.
“Problem is I don’t hear these voices enough in the mainstream press.”
Oy vey, here we go again.
“Perhaps progressive Jews and Muslims need to come together as one and demand that their views be heard in the mainstream media.”
Perhaps, but don’t expect the MSM to provide a public venue for the voicing of that demand.
qbaldsmoove:
“If Jews want to be perceived as being liberal they should vote that way.”
LOL! http://aai.3cdn.net/70392c6c9708b2d5f1_0dm6bh9×6.pdf
I just finished a book titled “How to Lie With Statistics”. Scary stuff. It is a whole lot easier that I believed possible. The UN needs to develop guidelines for the proper (not misleading) use of stats in the media. Otherwise we will keep getting duped into misconceptions that lead to intolerance that lead to conflict.
This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
– Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
If you are a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim that thinks the same way as Golda about God giving your group some real estate, you are a threat to the civilized world.
How is this a surprise? The majority of Americans are opposed to every Cheneybush policy on every level - why should American Jews be any different? American Blacks oppose this administration 98 to 1, with 1 undecided. American Atheists - 80% against. Hell, the vast majority of American plant and animal life opposes this administration - why single out American Jews? Because a handful of them are part of traitorous gang who stole our government and set about destroying it while raping the world for every possible cent?
What “majority” would ever support such an agenda? American Turncoats? American anti-Americans? Who?
Hey qbaldsmoove,
OK so your an anti-Semite.. Gee ..OK you are also an ignorant Ass to think that you can define what being a Jew is all about.
I run into ignorants who claim Jesus was not a Jew too….
It is a Mystery… It is about people who want to live in peace but They are ruled like most on the planet by People who like to make loads of money and power from dividing up the Human race into boxes and then get them to fear each other which is great for investing in security.
And it is a Great Story as my Grandma Cohen used to say…
And if you got any more insults for Us contact me at jimglover@verizon.net
so we can arrange a more intimate discussion.
Shalom
doc j
See above post about lying with statistics. You’re stuff is crap.
Same to you Jim Glover.
I don’t care about Jesus, I’m not a christian.
I do care that as far as I can see the Israelites have an eye for an eye old testament attitude that will keep them being blown up. If the Jews have acted through history the way they are acting now it is no wonder they’ve been persecuted.
You want my email so that your Jewish hitmen can come get me? You are scary. Very.
I rest my case about ya’ll needing to learn how to take criticism.
Thanks for the laugh!
just curious Where are all these guys before the public outburst on AIPAC?
Yeah, that’s funny, Jim Glover.
You’re calling me an ignorant Ass for expressing my views. You don’t like my views, my opinions, so you call me anti-semitic. How very played out – that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. I have no idea who you are or what you’re capable of, but religious zealots scare the hell out of me. I’m a god-fearing-christian—fearing-atheist. OK, now I’m a god-fearing-jew—fearing-atheist. People of faith scare the hell out of me because you can’t prove your gods exist so “now I must kill you in the name of my god.” You never hear an atheist say “I will kill you in the name of aethism.” Or how about “stop believing or die.” And you want me to give you my email address. Scary.
Remember, even if it is decent, law-abiding Jews who try to bring the Podhoretz-Kristol type of person to justice: it will still be called ‘anti-semitic’.
Many of those Jews who are unlike the neocons would describe themselves as Zionist. If you want to laud the vast majority of Jews do not demonize Zionism.
Zionism, though problematic in the way that all nationalism are, is not a swear word as some here see it or is (necessarily) equivalent to racist. ALL nationalism can be reactionary and racist and self-serving.
Oh, and to those people who “don’t hear it in the mainstream media, we say it all the time, perhaps you should listen. Just like Black folks criticize each other but whites never seem to hear it.
And Jewish is an ethnicity, anyone knows it…it is not just a religion…
I possess a Masters in Social Science and I have passively and sometimes actively worked with left-wing oriented groups or protests.
I have done so in the Midwest and the West coast. (Unfortunately, I’m presently living within a small town in FL…no actions pending there.)
Everytime I have dealt with social justice work, I have met many individuals who were ethnic (albeit secular) Jews.
They were creative, productive and contributed considerable amounts of energy and thoughtful input to each project, group action or organization.
That is why I was so suprised when I met my first neoconservative professor who had been brought up as a religious Jew. (However, he was secular.)
Unforunately, I had to sit through his graduate seminar on authority relations; the whole project was a slam against any form of participatory democracy. Instead, he promoted a form of expertise-based authoritarian democracy…whatever that is.
Last, this long deceased professor was proud of his theoretical and practical contributions to counter-insurgency practices developed while he worked for the State Dept.
His ahistorical counter-insurgency approach was first applied to Guatemala with (in my view, not his) tragic and horrific results.
In addition, when attending this high-level grad school, I also, for the first time, angered someone who was a secular Jew. It started when I placed the Palestinian national flag over my office desk. (What partially contributed to my hoisting the flag was the fact I was dating, at the time, a very attractive Palestinian woman.
Although I accept Mr. Greenwald’s efforts at clarification as constructive, I am not yet convinced that a real effort is being made by more moderate Jewish People to change the landscape.
Example: National Public Radio has many Jewish reporters who are not neo-cons. NPR programs are very inclusive of Jewish topics and news. Yet one does not find the kind of neo-con criticism that one might expect from more moderate Jewish People.
This is not a public relations problem, it begs for real action. I sincerely hope it is forthcoming.
Ha Ha,
A very good effort. Look at all those blue links…… Just Like the BLUE Lines all over the world and the one that policemen everywhere never cross. They will not shout down the “bad cops.”
Lets see all these self “respecting” people of the twelve tribes speaking LOUDLY and PERSISTENTLY against the actions of Israel for say fifty years and while they at it why not start a group of Israelis,,sorry “Jews” who will renounce their ability to go “home” and be citizens of a country they were not born into, UNTIL all Palestine peoples have been given back their rights to “go home;”
That would be a credible action!!
The above is a puff piece, making the “jews” to be the good guys again……but……NEVER AGAIN!!!!!
Judaism is a religion when it serves the purposes best. It’s a nationality when it serves best. That is part of the problem. You can’t have it both ways, but seem to think you can. And since there are so many ignorant gentiles you get away with it most of the time. They’re the ones that call themselve “half jewish.” Kills me (kidding Jim). But you get mad when anyone calls you on it.
But this duality is symptomatic. Included is “most jews are liberal, and if you don’t think so you’re an anti-semite.”
Of course, this is a wide brush. It’s just all too prevalent. If you call me anti-semite I’ll include you on my ever-growing list of fascists.
Vern notes: “But, I don’t see, aside from the usual suspects in the US and Israel-generally referred to as “self-hating Jews” much speaking out and any criticism of Israel is still taboo.”
That makes them not much different than most Americans, who are still dozing through these early fascist years.
The American Jewish Committee is part of the problem so this survey is welcome news and maybe a change. Not all American Jews are Zionists but those that question Israel are self-hating Jews. I have been accusecd of that often.
Try running a labor union organizing campaign against a company that is owned by a Jew. The company’s owners rally the local Jewish community against the union and accuse the leadership as anti-Semitic or self-hating Jews.
Mr. Greenwald’s comments are important to know, but they beg the question. He lacks the power and authority to make an impact.
The only way to show the difference is for a generally recognized leader, preferably Jewish, to take a stand. I have yet to see anybody do so, because its all about money and power, and the well-organized zeal of hard-core radical Christians, Zionists and Muslims.
This now goes for Democrats as well as Republicans.
Mr. Greenwald should also have asked how most Jews feel about ex-president Carter’s “Apartheid” book.
Tea party, anyone? or perhaps a Third party?
For another Jewish perspective, on the politics of food, please visit
The Vegetarian Mitzvah at www.brook.com/jveg
Shalom/Salaam/Pax/Peace!
zanychris:
“Many of those Jews who are unlike the neocons would describe themselves as Zionist. If you want to laud the vast majority of Jews do not demonize Zionism.”
“Define your terms” is pretty much owned these days by political hecklers and idle tosspots who argue inconsequentially over their beer, but Socrates’ injunction still has its legitimate uses. In the case of ‘Zionism’ it elicits almost as many different definitions as respondents — which yields how many different ways in which arguments over ‘Zionism’ can get at cross-purposes? People do manage to join issue occasionally, though.
qbaldsmoove:
“doc j
See above post about lying with statistics. You’re stuff is crap.”
“My stuff”, meaning the Zogby poll I cited against your canard that “If Jews want to be perceived as being liberal they should vote that way”, implying that they don’t.
Zogby is widely recognized as one of the best pollsters in America today and has taught history and political science at SUNY, Utica College and Hamilton College. You have likely taught your dog to drink beer. But it shouldn’t take Zogby to clue you in to what every pollster in the country knows: as a demographic group, Jewish Americans are second only to African Americans in voting against conservative candidates and in favor of liberal ones.
You run the painful risk of learning something at the expense of a warmly held prejudice. It’s a threshold moment, qbaldsmoove. Step through.
We need to read (British-published) Brian Lapping’s ‘End of Empire’ to understand the historical roots of the very complex Arab-Israeli conflict.
And David Altshuler’s ‘Hitlers War against the Jews’ (with numerous copies of contemporary photos and propaganda posters) to see how much all the recent Jew-bashing in the American media is almost a cloned replay of the Nazi distortions and hatred of the 30s and 40s.
For once I can agree with Jaded Prole. It’s good to see this article. The vast majority of American Jews I have encountered, in various professional settings in various states, are very socially conscious, politically progressive, and compassionate. With only a few bad apples the American media seem to love to publicize, Nazi-style. I am so sick of hearing about how evil the bugaboo ‘Israel Lobby’ is, ad nauseum… it only sounds like propaganda furthered by Bush’s Dubai/Emirate/Saudi friends, whose circles were incidentally pro-Nazi during WW2 (covered in Lapping’s book) and have probably more negative lobbying influence in American politics now than Jews or Israelis do.
Also I read a year or so ago about how most Israelis are as disgusted with the Likud’s slimy tricks as are Americans with Republicans and closet-Republicans polluting and sabotaging the Democratic party. Israel also has had a hijacked government (before Olmert) run by freaks with bizarre covert international connections.
Historically, American Jews have been on the frontlines of Civil Rights campaigns, and actively involved in social service organizations — ready to stick up for the non-Jewish underdog over and over again. To assume that the oddball Lieberman or Kissinger are typical of American Jews is a blatant distortion and lie.
And I am not Jewish, and had to un-learn grossly unfair anti-Jewish stereotypes taught in my early social environment, until I actually lived and worked with Jews in daily life and saw the truth.
THE OIL COMPANIES will make and break alliances as they are convenient, Jew or Islam makes no difference, and their media-owning friends will do likewise. Bush and his Oil-Friends profit from the Arab-Israel tension, as he would rather have them kill each other off and then take their oil fields.
Now, Bush is helping right-wing Arabs take over the Middle East so social democracy won’t spread, and corporate fascism will prevail. The Israelis will be used (or killed) as they are needed during the process.
I’ve known Jewish acquaintances (some of them now atheist/agnostic), none were neocons.
They’re probably stuck in a bad spot, wedged between their own right-wing/orthodoxy on the one hand, and the likelihood of the pendulum swinging back to anti-semitism on the other.
The self-hating thing is a ridiculous accusation. If the US were taken over by right-wing racists and proclaimed to be the White Christian States of America, would it be self-hating to critique this? Many Jews questioned whether a national expression of ethno-religious identity was appropriate. Unfortunately for all of us, the state of Israel apparently wasn’t created with genuine pluralism (a prerequisite for any democracy) in mind.
The other part of the problem is that radical Islam isn’t exactly a hotbed for sexual/racial/economic equality.
I’d say the whole region is hosed. It’s an intractable historical/racial/religious problem and the West’s influence has arguably not been positive. Nor has the middle-eastern influence on the West been all roses, since the conversion to Christianity — religion of Empire.
Hey Vern, You better include Palosi in you grouping. Whether Dems or Repubs. They differ not on Zionism. They will take us all the way to insure a Jewish state. How is this in our interest? The state of Israel will never compromise as long as this group in Washington stays in power.
TruOrange: I’m in Western Maryland.
While it would be helpful for more Americans to learn that the views of Jewish neocons are not shared by all (or even a majority of) American Jews, most Americans aren’t even aware of the Jewish influence on neocon ideology.
In my conversations, I’ve been surprised that my seemingly innocuous claim that one of the main reasons we attacked Iraq, in addition to the desire to control their oil and other resources, was to help protect Israel, has often been met with incredulity. In such a state of ignorance, it’s difficult to have productive debates.
To those around here who actually know a little American history, it was Americans of the Jewish faith who were important supporters of the civil rights movements and most of the liberal reforms of the 1960’s.
Actually, this whole thread is close to disgusting. The assumption all through most of the posts I’ve read is that ‘jews’ can be defined as some monlithic group believing in something. The only argument is about what they believe.
You can’t talk about any group like that. You have to look closer and see individuals. You have to talk to individuals. Its always incredibly stupid to talk of any group like ‘jews’ or ‘blacks’ or ‘muslims’ or ‘whites’ and ever assume that anything applies to all members of the group. That’s almost always a sign of dangerous people trying to mislead others. No matter which side they are on.
The only thing you can do is to get to know your fellow humans as individuals. Anything else someone trying to mislead you.
One suggestion if you want to know progressive Jews or Christians or any other group. Go to something like the protests about the School of the Americas or against nuclear weapons at Oak Ridge on Hiroshima day, open your eyes and look around. There are some amazing people of faith there that you should probably get to know.
CoMarc we all know progressives of all faiths and most CD posters go to the events you describe and count amongst their friend people of all faiths. I think the issue is how can progressives of all faiths particularily of the Abrahamic faiths get their voices heard in the MSM. This is the challenge. If that doesn’t work how can we get others outside of the progressive bubble to look into alternate media so that they have the opportunity to learn about progresive religious values? Most progressive media is already preaching to the choir and we need to reach others.
Representative government is now completely foreign to the US. Iraq war, health care, border control, trade policy, organic food, energy efficiency, alternative energy are just a tiny taste of the policies that the politicians take opposite positions to the people.
How many liberal Jews supported the Democrat Cynthia McKinney? How many are supporting Dennis Kucinich? How many liberal Jews supported the Lebanese Ralph Nader for president? Far easier to elect a pro-Zionist conservative Democrat and use major media to construct that person as a liberal. Perhaps on that basis of the word, many Jews are in fact liberal. If Hillary Clinton is a liberal and I voted for her, then I must be a liberal. Right?
CoMARC,
I certainly did not mean to suggest that Jews were a monolithic bunch: all neocons or crypto-neocons.
Nonetheless, Israel remains an extremely influential concern in the US if our foreign policy and MSM fixations are any indicators. I do know of rifts between progressive Jews and their orthodoxical siblings, particularly if they marry gentiles, how orthodoxy can override all else. The Middle Eastern mythologies (including Christianity) are really no different from any other in this regard. One can imagine that a stalwart worshiper of a European indigenous deity such as Odin/Wuotan would be ticked off if his brother married a heathen worshiper of Cernnunos, Zeus, etc. or another European deity.
Albert Einstein was a Jew with vision, and his “Jewishness” was transcended by his great insight. As a race we need to move beyond race, creed, and nationality if we are to survive. The truth of this is becoming more evident as the world descends further into chaos.
Albert Einstein was also a committed Socialist throughout his adult life. And he despised all things militaristic. If he hadn’t invented the theory upon which the nuclear bomb rests, they’d have thrown him in jail for treasonous activities. Unfortunately, he did invent the theory upon which the nuclear bomb rests….
THE ZIONIST EXTERMINATION OF PALESTINE IS ANALAGOUS TO THE HOLOCAUST; WHILE NOT IN SCALE THEN CERTANLY AS AN ATTEMPT TO WIPE OUT A PEOPLE.
BUT WHAT IS SADLY EQUAL IN SCALE TO THIS CRIME IS THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT’S PERPETRATION HAS CRIMINALIZED, TURNED INTO AN ARMED CAMP, SADDENED AND MADE HARD A YOUNG COUNTRY THAT COULD HAVE BEEN A SONG OF REBIRTH AND HOPE THAT TOOK THE WORLD’S BREATH AWAY. ALAS.
THERE MUST BE A PALESTINIAN HOMELAND SOON, OR ISRAEL RISKS LOSING MORE THAN HER TORTURED SOUL.
WERE ONE ESTABLISHED, SHE MIGHT YET BLOOM, A FLOWER IN THE DESERT.
I lived in Israel for 10 years, and I’m proud to be half-Jewish (on my mother’s side, which makes me 100% by Jewish law). I’m also proud to hold dual American-Israeli citizenship.
Let me say that there are many Israelis whose hearts bleed over the suffering of the Palestinians and the injustice constantly dealt to Israel’s Arab citizens (who overwhelmingly want to remain in Israel, with good wages and good health care, rather than living in a corrupt Palestinian state). They see how counter-productive the government’s policies are and have been from before the founding of the state. But they are also living there. Their children are at constant risk from terrorism. They send their sons and their daughters to the army.
To be an honest, committed, religious, liberal Jew is to see things from a multitude of perspectives. So don’t insult us with your broad brush of condemnation. And remember that while you and I sit in America and judge, people who agree with us have their lives on the line.
ONE CAN ONLY INSULT ONESELF. GLAD TO BE A MIRROR FOR YOU THOUGH.
AN ARAB LIFE IS WORTH AS MUCH AS YOURS AND YOUR DIATRIBE ABOVE WAS DISGUSTINGLY RACIST.
AT LEAST YOU DIDN’T CONTEST MY COMPARISON OF ISRAEL’S TREATMENT OF PALESTINIANS WITH HITLER’S TREATMENT OF THE JEWS.
BUT YOU OR SOME OTHER RACIST VALUES JEWISH LIFE MORE THAN OTHER HUMAN LIFE (PALESTINIAN) WILL.
HOW DARE YOU JUDGE THE PALESTINIAN GOVT AS CORRUPT, ISN’T THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER UNDER CRIMINAL INESTIGATION AS WE SPEAK? WEREN’T THE FILES ETC FROM HIS OFFICES CLEANED OUT JUST YESTERDAY? AGAIN, YOU ARE A RACIST.
YOU ARE A RACIST.
YOU ARE A RACIST. LIKE HITLER WAS, YOU SCUM.
Okay, everyone has become certafiable since I was last posting.
MukiMaine, I was wondering when or if someone was going to bring up the 1/2 Jewish thing. It is the Mother that determines if you are Jewish or not, Jew marries non-Jew, Mom is a Jew then kids are Jews. Dad is Jewish and Mom isn’t, your Dad is a Jew you are not then 1/2 Jewish.
Only one thing bugs hell out of me, so far all that claim the murders and descent re; Palestinians is that of a very small % of Jews, reread this entire batch of posts and tell me where, just one time a Jew has referred to a Palestinian as a Palestinian? Always, Always “Arabs”. Never a mention of the “settlements” built by Jews on Palestinian land, then the Palestinian is murdered when he demands his, HIS land back.
I could care less about religion or no religious belief but I do care about human beings and it is shameful what has been done to the Palestinians, in the same way we are shameful for the demise of a culture and population in a land not ours. See, not ours.
BETTER WATCH OUT. SPEAKING IN DEFENSE OF PALESTINIANS WILL QUICKLY GET YOU SLAMMED AS ANTI-SEMITIC.
A SHALLOW DIVERSIONARY FOIL, YET EFFECTIVE FOR IT’S UGLINESS.
BUT AS STATED IN THE PRECEDING COMMENT THE ONLY REAL TRUTH IS THE PALESTINIAN EXPERIENCE ON THE GROUND. THE HORRIFIC MISERY, ASSASINATIONS, TORTURE, DEMOLITION OF HOMES AND SLAUGHTER THE ISRAILI’S VISIT UPON THESE PEOPLE WITH THEIR TANKS AND HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS.
THE VACUOUS WHINING ABOUT PERCENTAGES OF JEWISHNESS OR MARGINS OF SUPPORT BY AMERICAN JEWS FOR THE SLAUGHTER WOULD MAKE THE PALESTINIANS DYING UNDER THE ISRAILI JACKBOOT LAUGH A BITTER LAUGH.
Fellow Posters,
I congratulate you all on conducting such an animated discussion about such a politically sensitive subject as the Zionist project and all its manifestations. Although you pull no punches, you stay within the bounds of civil discourse and there is no encumbrance, no censorship by the systems operator. The free-for all, the back-and-forth between individual posters is a pure delight.
Contrast this to the way these threads are run by two of the foremost German news journals, the Spiegel and the Stern: before a comment is posted, it is vetted with regard to its political correctness. I had contributions disappear into oblivion without so much as a notice. I even had a second retort to another participant squashed for no apparent reason.
I always thought that North America was the blinkered society when it came to Israel, but now I know Germany is a closed one. Kloppstock in ‘Minna of Barnhelm’: “Sire, geben Sie Gedankenfreiheit!”
In future, I will joyfully partake in your discourse and disdainfully bypass their Kindergarten which tolerates only views that are approved by overseers, whoever they may be. Would you believe that contributors to these ‘Forums’ typically have (and proudly have displayed) postings numbering in the hundreds and thousands?
I will let you know when I succeed to convey this message to this gray, slimy, non-identifiable entity that aspires to be Big Brother, but don’t hold your breath.
Allegiance to tribe…but the problem is Zionism is Racism. In a nutshell.
Always thought this was instructive concerning the dynamic:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030421/alterman
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/alterman
The neocon jews mentioned in the article are pretty much like all neo-cons. They see power and money residing in that sort of political sucking up. They get to go to the good parties.
No identifiable segment of humanity has ever, as far as I know, been immune to the siren call of being one of the insiders, the power elite, the “boys.”
ARE PEOPLE WITH HEART AND SOUL, CORAZON DE ALMA, AN “IDENTIFIABLE SEGMENT OF HUMANITY? BECAUSE BY DEFINITION THEY ARE NOT PART OF THE BELTWAY “BOYS”. MARGINALIZED OFTEN, MALIGNED YES, BUT IMMUNE TO THE SIREN CALL OF POWER AND MONEY? HOW ABOUT REPULSED BY IT. WE ARE LEGION.
AN IDENTIFIABLE SEGMENT OF SOCIETY? HOW ABOUT GRANDMOTHERS?
OR DO THEY NOT COUNT BECAUSE THEY ARE FEMALE AND OLDER? MANY PEOPLE REPUDIATE THE BECKONING HAND OF GREED. THEY JUST BECOME LESS VISIBLE BY DOING SO. HOWEVER THEY/WE BREATH AIR, ARE IDENTIFIABLE SEGMENTS OF SOCIETY AND ARE IMMUNE TO ANY DESIRE TO BE AN “INSIDER”; THAT IS A PARTY TO MURDER, GRAFT, IMPERIALISM, TORTURE, DEATH SQUADS AND ALL THAT WASHINGTON STANDS FOR AROUND THE WORLD.
PERSONALLY I HAVE A BA IN MIDDLE EASTERN STUDIES AND WAS RECRUITED BY THE CIA BUT CHOSE NOT TO GOT TO LATIN AMERICA (EARLY EIGHTIES) AND PARTICIPATE. HELLO. HELLO. ANYONE HOME? ALSO CAME FROM MONEY AND WAS SICKENED BY THE CULTURE AND ELITISM IT REPRESENTED. AND STEPPED AWAY FROM IT (IMMUNE)
Klaus,
Careful not to mix apples and oranges. Spiegel and Stern are mainstream German outlets, maybe the equivalent of Time, Newsweek, etc. in the US. Yes, indeed, our mainstream media carefully puts everything through an editorial lens. A huge number of topics, such as single-payer, alternative energy, influence of AIPAC, the Green Party etc. are verboten in US mainstrea media outlets. Their job is to corral the people away from their own class interests, to keep them on a reverse teat — one that takes rather than gives.
I’ve sometimes wondered about the readership depth/breadth at CD. Anyone know whether statistics have ever been made available? Google and other search engines tend to bury blogs, so my own approach is to bounce ideas off here, archive them offline, and maybe eventually rewrite them into some other format which is less readily buried.
glad someone is talking about this. I know jewish families that literally pray for an end of palestinian suffering every year at sader. most of the pro-palestine peeps i’ve met are jewish.
The compelling truth of these polling results (which was always true, but ignored or hidden by the MSM) tells the story of far more reactionary ruling elites, who purport to speak for their general populations.
Imperialist and pro-war positions of guileful elites are often disguised behind the facade of patriotic-sounding proposals, carried by the media as mis-leading propaganda about the true wishes of average people.
The ‘American’ president and administration always are conveyed by the MSM as speaking for the American people —- which is categorically not the case.
I have long suggested that AIPAC really stands for the ‘American-style Imperialism Political Action Committee’.
Both ruling-elite power structures here and abroad would be more accurately understood as an elite and integrated global corporatist Empire hiding behind and working through the facades of ‘Vichy America’, ‘Vichy Israel’, and other distinctly ‘vichy’ phony governments (and military power), than any comforting illusion of democracies representing the real wishes of their populations.
I don’t care how often somebody brow-beats me. I guess everyone can make up their own opinion about what anti-semitism is, just like whether judaism is a nationality or religion.
I am an anti-zionist. I will state that emphativcally.
As for anti-semitic? Well, I’m from germanic descent, and I’m ashamed of what germany did. I do not condone violence in any way. Most Jews I’ve known (or do I have to say “peolpe that are jewish?”) are good hard working people. Most I have liked and gotten on well with.
I also know that here in milwaukee exit polls showed that they voted in block for Bush.
That’s where I stand. Paint it any way you like.
The chosen race has become the master race at redneck amerika’s expense. The alpha tribe is over rated and over represented in the land of fast disappearing opportunity. The similarities between Nazi Germany in the late thirties and the Zion con configuration of Bush amerika are startling. I have no doubt that the redneck pendulum will swing back and then it just might be a tad late to claim that “I spoke out…I was a good Jew.”
Collective punishment is not a pretty thing but something that the global tribe of Zion has been wielding against its enemies for a long time. Amerikan Jews or any other Jews will have to wait to get my sympathy until the abominable crimes of their Israeli cousins in occupied Palestine are long atoned for.
I view ethnic Jews and the state of Israel as two different things.
Ethnic Jews, of course, can be broken down into many varieties: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Orthodox, non-religious, assimilated into a dominate national culture, etc.
As ethnic Jews, they’ve tended to be assigned a minority status in most societies no matter what their average wealth and educational attainment is as a group.
However, the average wealth, income and educational attainment of ethnic Jews tends to be higher than the majority group of most societies. One can observe a similar tendency among ethnic Chinese within Malaysia, and SE Asia (where they haven’t been expelled). Another example, are Arabic minorities within South America, or ethnic Japanese in Brazil.
Thus minority ethnic groups like the Chinese, Jews, S. American Arabs and Japanese are sociologically defined as “middle-man minorities.”
They tend to function within a middle economic zone (acting as middle men) rather than being assigned a low-wage, low educational attaiment minority position.
For example, within Honduras, the Arabic minority (Turcos) act as middle men between the local well-off consumers (or impoverished workers) and U.S. franchises and factories: Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, U.S. textile industries, etc.
Though the turcos are granted access to political power, they are also despised by the established Mestizo economic elite and many of the lower-classes.
The problem of Israel is that it is an ethnic and theocratic state; as a result, ethnic Palestinians are assigned a minority, second class position.
Of course, within Israel’s occupied territories Palestinians are assigned a Third World, cheap labor status.
Within the Israeli Jewish community there is also a racial hierarchy. For example, Ethiopian Jews are treated as second class citizens; in contrast, Ashkenazi Jews are assigned a top position within this hierarchy.
For me, Israel may become less racist, less imperialist and less ethnically divided if two things take place:
1. Israel is transformed into a secular state
2. the U.S. cuts off all foreign and military
aid.
Additionally, U.S. aid is continued when
Israel’s state is secularized and when
there is obervable evidence of a changed
(and better) status for Palestinians within
Israel and in the occupied territories.
doc j
Here’s a good chance for a threshold moment:
Admit that Israel has no right to exist. After two thousand years you want your land back, land that is VERY highly prized by those who were currently occupying it. Then, when it’s carved out, taken from them and given to you, you can’t understand why they’re not happy about it. Then instead of trying to get along you lash out violently at every little incident, and begin usurping more land.
Now I’m sure you’ll say that I need to learn history, which means that I need to read the history books that have been re-written to paint it all in a favorable light. I know I’m reading the wrong books; I’m also sure you can point me in the right direction. Just tell me what to think so that I’m not called this terrible name anymore.
Mr. Greenwald’s article supports what I have always believed, that my Jewish fellow citizens have been, and are, among the most humanist and progressive of any ethnic group in the USA, a point that hardly needs proving. The ideal of governmental progressivism, public health, education, rational municipal government, came from Bismark’s Germany in the ninteenth century with German Jewish immigrants. The fight for worker’s rights, the struggle against segregation in the twentieth century were fought by a diproportionate percentage of Jews. The problem is that Mr. Greenwald’s article does not mention AIPAC, an organization of people of the highest influence, not all but mostly Jews, that has a virtual veto power over any legislation attempted in Congress, and to a degree, what appears in the mass media or is taught in the universities. AIPAC has allied itself with the most reactionary, perhaps neo-fascist is a better word, elements of our society, in order to forward its Likud policies. Like it or not, it IS the most prominent and influential “Jewish” organization, and, in allying itself with what many might think to be the traditional enemies of Jews, cannot escape the responsibility of changing some people’s view of those it claims to represent.
Progressive Jewish voices we need you to speak out now along with all progressives! This was on CD today.
Published on Thursday, December 13, 2007 by Agence France Presse
Palestinian Civilians ‘Hostage’ to Worsening Conflict: Red Cross
GENEVA - Palestinians have become a “hostage to the conflict” between militants and the Israeli armed forces and are bearing the brunt of the hostilities, the international Red Cross warned on Thursday.
“The Palestinian people are paying an exceedingly high price for the continuing hostilities between Israel and Palestinian factions,” said Beatrice Megevand Roggo, head of Middle East operations for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).”Their situation is made even more difficult by intra-Palestinian rivalries. The Palestinian population has effectively become a hostage to the conflict,” she said.
The ICRC said the situation in the Gaza Strip, which has been run by the Islamist Hamas militia since June, is “alarming,” with Israel’s decision to cut fuel supplies adding further hardship to the beleaguered population.
“The (Gaza) Strip has been progressively sealed off since June: imports are restricted to the bare minimum and essential infrastructure, including medical supplies and water and sanitation systems, is in an increasingly fragile state,” it noted.
The ICRC said that immediate political action was needed to resolve the crisis and that humanitarian aid on its own was not sufficient.
It urged Israel to “respect its obligations under international humanitarian law, to ease restrictions on movement in the Gaza Strip and West Bank and to lift the retaliatory measures that are paralysing life in Gaza.”
Israeli troops killed six militants in Gaza on Tuesday during a military incursion, with the chief of staff warning that the time was “approaching” for a major offensive in the coastal strip.
All I know is that when I served in Palestine in 1947 the Jews were terrorists. The arabs had been made many promises during WW2 but none were kept, the Jews were allowed to steal arab land at an alarming rate all aided and abetted by Europe and USA. The whole mess in the ME is a direct result of our and Jewish terrorism and will continue down that treacherous path unless we the people stop them.
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the existence and work of Jewish Voice for Peace. If you’re not familiar with it, check out its Web site: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Serious question: what exactly is it to be Jewish? Is it a religion, ethnicity, or nation-state? All of the above?
There are arguably few other examples extant today — the European tribes had their religion and identities stripped away, the Chinese went atheistic (ostensibly anyway), India has gone through all sorts of influences, etc. Egypt no longer worships Pharaoh, Africa is turning from its gods and going Islamic, Italy long left Zeus behind, etc. Japan seems to maintained its Shinto roots.
On the larger landscape, is Judaism (relatively small numerically, but it sure seems to make the news) extremely tenacious at keeping its identity — perhaps far more successfully than most other groups over the centuries?
Dear Paul Bramscher, One might consider our Indian fellow citizens. There is an Indian diaspora throughout the world, commonly observing their religion and culture in their own neighborhoods as a clearly identifiable group and tending to be a merchant class. In this day of available transportation and cheap communication, very close ties are often held with the mother country. I assume that the politics of India is of great importance to many of them and that many do what they can to aid her politically. Often their role as a merchant class, in combination with accumulated national influence, has brought them difficulty, as in present day Fiji.
Tony,
But the ethnic identity of persons of Indian descent is a not an automatic mapping to a particular millenia-old orthodoxical religion. Religion in India is probably as diverse and complex historically as is their love of spices (it is my favorite ethnic food). There is the caste system, which some might argue is a racial/hereditary mechanism totally contrary to democracy or arguably even meritocracy (as is capitalism, transition of power/authority strictly along economic vectors).
Dear Paul Bramscher, Regarding your first sentence, the diversity of the many expressions of Judaism suggests little “automatic mapping”. As with Christianity, there may be the “word” but iterpretation of the word constantly changes with time. (chicken tikka rules!)
I found this timeline on Israel at the Truman library.
Dear NMBill, What is not mentioned in this PC bio of Truman is the enormous campaign contribution be received from prominent American Zionists that aided his razor-thin victory for the Presidency in 1948.
Tony,
Anyway, the Jews are rare indeed to be worshiping the same God after 3,000+ years. I give them credit for being so tenacious, refusing to be conquered by imported religions.
It may be a factor of monotheism as well. Returning to the topic of India, they’ve gone through all sorts of influences (Vedic period, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.). Hinduism itself is split into different vectors, depending on which god(s) one is chiefly devoted toward.
Most Christians today are of European descent, and are relatively new converts (Iceland converted only 1,000 years ago), mostly forced to convert by autocratic overlords. Islam is also an imported religion to most of Africa and Indonesia. Of the three middle-eastern mythologies, the Jews seemed to be most successful at keeping their indigenous religion. It’s a genuine testimony to tenacity, conservativism, power of tradition, refusal to fully assimilate however far afield they go, etc.
If Americans of European descent were as successful, most of us would have gone to Odin school or somesuch on Sundays.
Islam is also a younger religion Paul its only been around for 1400 years or so. Buddhism around 1500 years or so.
TO BRAMSCHER, WHAT IT IS TO BE JEWISH? CERTAINLY NOT A FUNCTION OF A NATION STATE, BLESSING THOUGH IT IS.
FIRST, IT IS THE SECOND OLDEST CONTINUOUSLY INTACT CULTURE IN THE WORLD, AND SECOND, LANGUAGE,THE CORE OF ANY DISTINCT AND UNIQUE PEOPLE, HEBREW, FOR THE JEWS. OVER THE MILLENIA, THROUGH GUTS AND INTELLIGENCE AND A DESIRE TO SURVIVE AS A PEOPLE IN THE FACE OF ATTACK, JEWS HAVE ATTAINED A WISDOM AND AWARENESS PASSED DOWN CAREFULLY FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION. THIS IS PART OF IT. THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF LEARNING, ADAPTING AND TO JUST SAY IT, GETTING SMARTER. WHAT A WISE PEOPLE. AND WITH SUCH A STRONG COMMUNAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND COMMITTMENT TO THEIR RACE. TRES BIEN!
HAPPY CHANUKA, HOLIDAYS AND MOST BEST WISHES TO ALL WHO HAVE POSTED ABOVE, ALL, SINCERELY, MDP.
Paul brought up a good question: “What is a Jew or a Christian, or Muslim for that matter?” All involve self-applied labels which are divisive. Many if not all such labels derive from conditioned belief and necessitate that we erect walls of tolerance between us. My belief as OPPOSED to your belief, right? Beliefs and labels always work in thought-opposition. My country as different and distinct from your country, territory, heritage, etc. Do we not lose our humanity in this kind of dualistic labeling? Deep down is any human being really different from another? The labels “Jew” or “Christian” can be twisted in any manner that suits whatever self-serving and corrupt purpose desire dictates at the moment. Unless we begin to understand the core of what we truly are and unite in compassion, mankind will continue to slide down the slippery slope of destruction and violence.
Dear Paul Bramscher, I am afraid that I am not much of an enthusiast of “religion” in the abstract. In the first place, nobody worships the same god for three thousand years, a shepherd watching the sky cannot concieve the same philosophy as an aircraft pilot. Probably individual shepherds do not agree. Those who consider themselves Jews contain the normal degrees of religious variation, fundamentalists, liberals, and, like myself, non-believers. This variation increases with the culture of origin, consider the Ethiopian Jews recently admitted to Israel. Personally, I would have preferred “paganism” to have developed into the “worship” of the “gods”, chemistry, physics, biology, sociology and history, but, no, that’s not the way our psyches evolved. Anyway, nothing stays the same for a thousand years, you never put your hand into the same river twice. Please go to Google Video or You Tube and watch the first part of “Zeitgeist”, an explanation of the zodiac as it relates to the Judeo-Christian myths and their middle eastern predecessors in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
chessgame: I understand that one might be Jewish whether or not he wants to to be. That is, if your mother is Jewish you might claim to be an American Buddhist, atheist, agnostic etc. but you remain Jewish in the eyes of the orthodoxy (though not in good standing). There isn’t that hereditary ethno-religious dynamic, at least I don’t think so, in Christianity or Islam. Even the most fire&brimstone flat-earth Christian fundies won’t claim that one is Christian by caste — if someone claims to be a pagan, atheist, agnostic or (god forbid — the greatest evil of all) a secular humanist, then the flat-earther will certainly curse him/her, but implicitly recognizes this other person’s claim as not being part of the fold. There is no ethno-racial identity which makes one Christian.
All primitive/ethnic gods, tribal totems/superstititons, wargods, etc. (e.g. YAHWEH) of course have a chosen people — and it’s no coincidence that the Jews are YAHWEH’s chosen. If one is religiously inclined, who in their right mind would worship someone other tribe’s god(s)?
Apparently Rome needed a glue to unify the plethora of local deities and traditions, and so the old gods that served the Scandinavian, Teutonic, Celtic, Classical and other tribes/groups had to be homogenized. Jews managed to retain tribal status to the modern era, whereas the Europeans lost theirs.
All empires need some common set of symbols (9/11 was the failed attempt in the modern day). We can probably blame Constantine not only for starting the eradication of indigenous European religions, but also for starting the debasing of Christianity. At least, this is my read on things.
Google “Blue Box Bob”. This Jewish National Fund clown-prop money-raiser is the US Jewish community’s way of financing the theft of Palestinian land and Zionist settlements in the West Bank, as well as Jewish-only real estate practices in Israel. “Blue Box Bob” collects US Jewish children’s nickels and dimes and the Jewish parents’ very large checks for the JNF, at synagogues in nearly every city in the US. Zionism is, in the US, a broad Jewish community militancy.
The AJC report is nothing but a false cover for the breadth of US Jewish complicity in the rape of Palestine and its
disastrous consequences for US rapprochement in the Near East. The AJC would have you believe that only a few neo-con
Jews encourage their kids to “support Israel” by giving money to Blue Box Bob. Check the Blue Box Bob web site, you will see what I mean. The US Jewish collective finances the settlements - and it’s tax deductible so…. well, then you do too!
All religions are useless. Please America, stop wasting your brains keeping that crap inside your tiny brains. There is no room in there.