US Protests Shrink While Anti-War Sentiment Grows
WASHINGTON - Crowds at antiwar rallies in Washington have dwindled even as U.S. opinion has turned against the war in Iraq, as organizers feud and participants question the effectiveness of the street protests.
Rival antiwar groups, which in years past jointly sponsored massive rallies on the National Mall, have promoted separate protests recently or decided to steer clear of the capital altogether.
The thinning crowds stand in contrast to the antiwar protests of the Vietnam era, which grew as the war progressed.
Activists and experts say divisions among peace groups, along with other factors like the lack of a draft, fatigue about the war and the rise of the Internet, have all contributed to the declining turnout.
Sparse turnout — fewer than 1,000 at a rally on Saturday, according to local media reports — could undermine the goal of forcing an end to U.S. involvement in Iraq, participants say.
“When you have demonstrations in which the turnout is not terribly impressive, that gives politicians the sense that people may oppose the war but nobody’s really going to pay a price,” said Peter Kuznik, an American University history professor and antiwar protester.
Antiwar rallies drew hundreds of thousands of people at the war’s start in 2003, although only 23 percent of Americans then said the invasion was a mistake, according to a USA Today/Gallup Poll. That figure is now 58 percent.
Frustration about the war has driven down President George W. Bush’s approval ratings and helped Democrats win control of Congress last year. But since 2005, antiwar groups have opted to promote separate events rather than work together.
Saturday’s protest, sponsored by the Troops Out Now Coalition, came two weeks after an antiwar event sponsored by the ANSWER Coalition, which drew roughly 10,000 people. ANSWER also sponsored a rally in March.
The groups’ agendas are similar, opposing what they call “imperialist” U.S. policy not only in Iraq but toward countries like Cuba and Iran — which has alienated some supporters.
“There’s all of these peripheral issues that you’re going to be associated with, whether you want to or not,” said Hamilton College history professor Maurice Isserman.
SPLINTER GROUP
Both groups’ leaders were associated with the Workers World Party, which advocates a shift toward a Soviet-style planned economy. But a 2004 dispute prompted some members to form the splinter Party for Socialism and Liberation.
Members of the splinter group stayed active in the ANSWER Coalition, and the remaining members of the Workers World Party formed the Troops Out Now Coalition, Troops Out Now spokesman Dustin Langley said.
Another antiwar group, United for Peace and Justice, has refused to work with ANSWER since a joint rally in 2005. The event drew well over 100,000 people, media reports said, but the two groups clashed over speaking time and other issues.
United for Peace and Justice, which has tried to focus on ending the Iraq war, drew 100,000 people to a January protest. The group plans 11 regional demonstrations later this month, but none in Washington.
“The base that we work with was saying to us, ‘We’ve been to Washington a lot in the last four years, we don’t want to go to Washington again,’” national coordinator Leslie Kagan said.
ANSWER has called for antiwar groups to join forces for a large rally in the spring, but Kagan and Langley said their groups have not decided whether to participate.
Antiwar leaders say recent smaller protests reflect new tactics, not disorganization. Smaller activist groups like Code Pink have been a colorful, disruptive presence at congressional hearings and appearances by Bush administration officials.
“There’s times when we’ve had half a million people out in the streets, and there’s times when it’s important just to be there,” Langley said.
But others said it is less likely they’ll head to Washington at all. “People are tired, they are frustrated because they didn’t expect this to go on so long,” said Laura Bonham, a spokeswoman for Progressive Democrats of America, which lobbies lawmakers to support a withdrawal. “It’s like, well, we can stay home.”
Largely absent from the actions are young people, who were the majority of Vietnam-era protesters — perhaps because they do not risk being drafted into the military or from a sense that they can express their opposition to the war on the Internet, rather than on the streets, Isserman said.
© 2007 Reuters
As I have stated before; I believe the internet is not working in our best interests. It provides an opportunity for folk to shout silently, and so who gives a damn.
Until people organize and hit the streets to hurt business and the government where it counts (the pocket), there can be no progress.
Hitting the streets has done nothing; it doesn’t even get televised. It’s as invisible as the internet. Unfortunately, to get noticed, some of the other tactics from the 60s will need to make a comeback. Genuine disruptiveness may be called for; the popular equivalent of a filibuster. Keep Congress from being able to “work”.
Somewhere in this discussion of tactics, though, I wish that people would drop all this “if only there were a draft” talk; remember the old saying, be careful what you wish for. Yes, it’s true, that people fight harder when a gun’s at their head. That doesn’t begin to justify putting one there.
The internet is the new protest forum, not marching in the streets. The politicians ignore the internet at their own peril, where anti-war protest goes on everyday and is growing rather than shrinking. Congressional approval ratings are the same as Bush’s and barely half of all voters believe that our current politicians can handle either domestic or international issues.
Lobo Gris
I have hopes for this internet yet. I do think the current generation is so tied to it, that the MSM we (I am 54) all rail against is just increasingly irrelevant. I hope Lobo Gris is correct; and the powers that be are in for a rude awakening. Those “inside the beltway” won’t know what hit them?? I can dream………
The anti war rallys really get no coverage. I remember watching the cable news all day on September 15th hoping to catch a glimpse of the protest. Not a peep, not even on msnbc…
Protesters are just getting tired, that’s all. It’s pretty defeating when the media pays little or no attention to protesters. Media attention is what you aim to get by protesting.
But the anti-war movement isn’t to blame here. They have been heroic, given what this war has demanded of them. To blame is the moron in the White House. The war is over, but he’d rather see a few hundred more Americans slaughtered (and maybe another 1.2 million Iraqis) than admit it.
go to article ‘prove the intensity of anti-war sentiment on 27th october’
there are rallys organised in 11 cities across the u.s.
Activists and experts say divisions among peace groups, along with other factors like the lack of a draft, fatigue about the war and the rise of the Internet, have all contributed to the declining turnout.
Maybe they’re too busy working 2 and 3 jobs and just don’t have the time. I doubt the majority of protestors have a trust fund or anything…
protests are smaller largely because of disorganization on the left. many of the larger “antiwar” groups that are *tied* to the democratic party have abandoned protest out of fear of embarrassing their pro-war party. many of the smaller protests that are occurring have a stronger political basis and are helping to organize a genuine grassroots alternative to the status quo.
here’s an excellent article on protest–why it matters and the *role* it plays in building a movement:
Does it matter if we protest?
http://www.socialistworker.org/2007-2/645/645_05_Protest.shtml
A good tactic, since now its easier to get info than during the pre-internet era, is to be a “one person army”. Go in a public forum where a politician speaks and when question times comes in, just ram it through ’til the politician wishes he could crawl back into his mamma’s womb. Just a thought. When clueless citizens see the politician “Huh… hah… huh…” ‘ing, theyll wonder wtf is up and start asking themselves questions.
True, protesting during tight economic times is a challenge for many, especially when facing the most anti-American everything administration in our history, not to mention the most anti-human. And, yes, there are so many pressing issues, it’s hard to keep track, let alone agree and organize.
So here’s a freebie: Greenpeace, ANSWER, Code Pink, and all others with the infrastructure and capacity to mobilize, it’s time for:
The Perpetual Protest against Perpetual War. Never been done, guaranteed to garner much attention. Starting soon, at the Capitol and a Capitol/City Hall/Fed building near you, twenty-four/7 protesting until Election Day, 2008.
The big teams carry the load - small groups, 3 shifts sort of thing, to guarantee the “torch” never goes out. The rest of the country, and world, is invited to join anytime for any length of time with any issue - the more the merrier. Weekends will see huge “surges” that will grow when others see the huge surges growing. The MSM will not be able to resist covering it. And our so-called reps will never be able to avoid it.
The key is: people can protest according to their schedule. Morning, noon, night - there will always be “friends” fighting with you.
The main organizers will naturally tend to logistics, wrangle a couple of stages for music/guest speakers, etc. Permits will be tricky, but an orderly, well defined route that does not impede traffic or commerce - but also that never ends - will be respected by the cops, who mostly can’t stand the Loonitary Decider either.
Guinness is standing by to record history’s longest protest march. Who’s ready to launch The Perpetual Protest for Perpetual Peace?
Let’s look at one sentence in this Reuters article — “The groups’ agendas are similar, opposing what they call ‘imperialist’ U.S. policy not only in Iraq but toward countries like Cuba and Iran — which has alienated some supporters.”
What are quotes doing around the word “imperialist”? Note the phraseology in “WHAT THEY CALL ‘imperialist’ US policy” — openly scoffing at the use of this word! And why would the view that the US is imperialist with regard to Cuba & Iran “alienate” some supporters? Is the idea that the US is an imperialist aggressor supposed to be so “wacko” & extreme, that it doesn’t even deserve to be taken seriously?
The enemy we face is present right here in this disgustingly dishonest sentence. As long as the capitalist press is “mainstream,” they will always find ways to marginalize dissent, by ignoring large demonstrations, & by ridiculing and misrepresenting the motivations of demonstrators.
If no media coverage is what stymies otherwise more successful anti-war demonstrations, what about large demonstrations at/against the media outlets themselves, charging them with a failure to validate the reality of such actions?
Protests were important mechanisms to vent steam. One suspects the pressure is building, but not escaping through its usual route.
My take on this is that people have correctly figured out that protests won’t change anything today. So why take all the time and effort to travel to a big protest?
The atmosphere is very different today from the Vietnam era. One is the media. In the Vietnam era there were news operations that were independent from the rest of their media organizations. And they were tasked with providing news as a public service. Today these are profit centers that are also parts of larger corporations. The key fact is that in the 60’s you could get fair and independent news coverage of a big protest. You don’t get that today.
The second is the political atmosphere. There was a real sense in the 60’s that politicians were willing to listen to what their constituents think. Today, I don’t get any sense that the Democratic or Republican leadership cares a whit about an anti-war protest or how big it is.
Americans got a clear demonstration of this in 2003. There were larger demonstrations across the country and around the world against the war. And it plainly had zero impact on either Bush or the Democrats.
The lesson learned. An anti-war protest in today’s environment is going to do absolutely nothing to change policy and it won’t be reported fairly in the corporate media so it won’t influence public opinion.
The person who complains that the internet is counter-productive has got it dead backwards. The internet has developed as an area where citizens can express themselves and influence public opinion and to some extent the policy of the parties. This is a good thing. If people aren’t going to demonstrations its because they know they are ineffective.
PS … when I lived in Atlanta, we had some large protests outside CNN at the start of the Iraq War. These of course were no reported on CNN. Having a protest at the media outlet doesn’t mean anything in terms of getting coverage. The editors and owners of the media outlets don’t care what you think, and just having you show up outside and protest won’t change their minds.
“Go in a public forum where a politician speaks and when question times comes in, just ram it through ’til the politician wishes he could crawl back into his mamma’s womb”
If nothing else the film of you getting tasered into submission might get posted on You Tube.
As I re-read this, to me the whole discussion has it backwards. It starts with the assumption that successful protests are the way to change policy. Then the whole discussion goes from there into why the protests aren’t successful.
Protests are just one tool to be used in trying to change policy. Sometimes its the right tool to use, other times its the wrong tool to use. But trying to force the wrong tool to work for you is a sure way to frustration and a general waste of time.
What we need is creative people who find and try to use the tools that will make a difference and work today.
What do you expect in a country that ignored the UN declared “International Day of Non-Violence”, on Gandhi’s birthday, Monday, October 2nd?
and I’ll bet most people do not know about the “Interfaith Fast to End the War in Iraq” scheduled for next week 10/7 & 10/8 in churches, synagogues, and mosques near youI
The MSM has ignored the call. (surprise!)
BUT, I’ll bet many religious organizations have palnned events NEAR YOU!
Interfaith Fast to End the War in Iraq
About
We call on all Americans to join in fasting from dawn to dusk on Monday, October 8, to call for an end to the Iraq War. On this day, people of faith in local communities across our nation will act as catalysts to transform the meaning of the day from one of conquest to community and from violence to reverence.
Why:
This war must end!
We must end the shattering of Iraqi and American lives by offering American generosity and support ? but not control ? for international and nongovernmental efforts to assist Iraqis in making peace and rebuilding their country, while swiftly and safely bringing home all American troops.
Just as Isaiah called the People Israel to hear the Yom Kippur fast as God’s call to feed the hungry, just as Jesus fasted in the wilderness, just as Christians through Lenten fasting and Muslims through Ramadan fasting have focused on spiritual transformation, just as Mohandas Gandhi, Cesar Chavez and others drew on fasting to change the course of history, so we call on all our communities of faith to draw now on fasting as a path toward inner spiritual transformation and outward social transformation.
American culture, society, and policy are addicted to violence at home and overseas. In our time, the hope of a decent future is endangered by an unnecessary, morally abhorrent, and disastrous war.
Ending this war can become the first step toward a policy that embodies a deeper, broader sense of generosity and community at home and in the world.
Who:
Millions of faithful Americans in local communities across the nation who believe in changing the course of our nation?s priorities from conquest to community and from violence to reverence.
This fall, in an unusual convergence, many of our faith traditions share a season of sacred self-assessment and self-transformation. This holy season includes the month of Ramadan and the Night of Power (Islam); the High Holy Days and Sukkot (Judaism); the Feast Day of Francis of Assisi and Worldwide Communion Sunday (Christianity) and Pavarana / Sangha Day (Buddhism).
Since each of our traditions recognizes the power of fasting as a spiritual discipline, we call on all people of faith to join in a fast from dawn to dusk on Monday, October 8.
How:
Pre-Events:
During the months of August and September, we will prepare and publicize educational material that religious leaders can use to prepare their congregations to:
1. appropriately relate with religious communities other than their own, and
2. learn the spiritual discipline of fasting as a transformational exercise, making clear the distinction between transformational fasting and the abusive use of fasting for the sake of a false sense of beauty and body-image
We invite individuals or small groups to begin the discipline by fasting one day a week, in the months prior to October 8.
Sundown, Sunday, October 7: Gather in intentionally interfaith events across the United States to pray and to break bread together.
On Monday, October 8th
Have a simple meal before dawn, committing to fast throughout the day as a sign of your commitment to move our core values from conquest to community and from violence to reverence.
While fasting, many of us in cities as New York, Chicago, San Francisco and in local communities across the United States will take part in public vigils, inviting community leaders and elected officials and candidates for the presidency to join us as we commit to take immediate action to end the war. In Washington DC, religious leaders will gather to fast together and engage in a public action to draw attention to the nation-wide events that will take place that day.
At sunset: We will eat together once again to break bread in public places as a sign of our commitment to work together for peace and an end to violence. This shared meal will be a sign of our covenant with one another ? as individuals and as communities - to stand against the war in Iraq, and to work with one another to stand against violence in our communities and around the world. (Communities should be aware that for Muslims, later in the evening there will be large-scale gatherings for the Night of Power, commemorating the first revelation of the Quran. Shared break-fast meals should be scheduled so as to take account of these gatherings.)
Long before television and mass distributed newspapers, there were huge, very successfull rallies, protests, walk-outs, etc. Harry Bridges didn’t have television behind him when he helped organize the dock workers and longshoreman in San Francisco. Neither did the women who protested like crazy early in the progressive movement for parks and open spaces for children. The bottom line is: Getting attention given to mass protests on the MSM should not be the goal. Turning folks out should. We just don’t have the talented leadership that was readily available during the progressive era and all the big movements before us. It’s true that many of the folks who are truly capable leading movements are indeed sitting right here, in front of the “telescreen”, to quote our dear friend Orwell.
What’s the answer? I don’t know. But what I do know is that people have to get back to basics. Newsletters, discussion groups, teach-ins, walk-outs, forcibly taking over buildings, blocking entrance to recruitment centers, stopping traffic on major freeways, etc and so. Not that I agree with the actions of the Weather Underground, for example, but when buildings got hit - even though very few people were even injured - people took notice. When the Black Panthers stood outside of a building in the awesome black berets, holding guns (please don’t go that far), it was a sight to behold.
Here’s the funny part: In order to get the coverage on the MSM that everyone seems to think is so damn important, we have to take it back to the old school and become the proverbial wrench that is thrown upon the gears of the monstrous machine that is imperial America, dig? When the American body politic is willing to risk the ill effects of standing up and speaking truth to power, it will be a sign that the tide of resentment and general angst has reached the undeniable point at which even the mainstream media complex has to cover it for what it really is. Until then, the reality is that is really isn’t much of a story.
I am as afraid as anyone. The reason I didn’t jump on the bus to DC the last time is that I didn’t want to risk my job. In this country there is no longer any kind of safety net. Most of us live paycheck to paycheck, so we are not going to go put our ass on the line until we feel like there is really a movement to get behind.
I ask who are our leaders? Where is our Martin Luther King Jr.? Where is our Mario Savio? Where is our Abby Hoffman? Are they sitting in front of the telescreen somewhere, blogging?
One of the best protest I can think of would be having Cindy Sheehan unseat Nancy Pelosi. That would chill some bones in the beltway like nothing else and perhaps get some copy-cat activity by other anti-war would be legislators. Standing around waving protest signs in your “5th amendment zone” five miles from the idiot your are protesting is a waste of time. Send some money to sheehan’s campaign and if you live in the area volunteer.
WTF - note further below.
GENERAL READERS: Get past my 1st paragraph, here, at least….
There could be useful effects on the Totally Silent Majority, if all the eloquent progressives who routinely post on websites like this, would ASLO just-as-routinely write or call their congressperson and/or send-in OPED letters to their local newspaper, saying the same things they say here.
We all know that our present, national-level political/economic system has become virtually hopeless, and that radical reform is needed. So my suggestions, below, aren’t a ‘pleading’ to that rotten system: They’re simply suggestions toward a necessary 1st step; to help fellow citizens shake out of their own existential torpor and/or political fragmentation.
When I began posting anti-Bush dissents on progressive websites several yrs ago, I also began writing condensed versions of the same, to my local paper; challenging Bush’s lies, civilly but emphatically calling on my neighbors to stop the war, wake-up and defend the US Constitution, reform the deeper rottenness, etc.
In my pretty-progressive town of about 100,000, no one, after 9/11 and prior to my initial OPED letter, amazingly, had squeeked a word of decisive public protest against what’s happening in Iraq, or about the fascism/corporatism that’s desroying our own country from the ‘inside.’
But my single, initial letter, published earlier this yr, seemed to break the zombie-like pall of local fear/hypnosis — because since then, there began an immediate and increasing stream of outraged letters by formerly Totally Silent citizens, who started to express the same kind of rage I expressed in my word — into their own words.
Enough so, that, now, our City Council has recently voted to place on the local Nov ballot, a Withdraw The Troops advisory referendum — which will probably pass.
Nothing heroic about what I did; and I’m not trying to brag about ME.. Nor did I think my letter, alone, was gonna change anything. But I did have some modest hope that it might loosen the tongues of more-timid people - who I knew agreed with me.
So here, I’m, just pointing out that we cyberspace dissenters should at least TRY do dissent on these other, more traditional levels, as well; as a necessary 1st step toward anything more politically ambitious.
WTF - Agreed, the internet appears to be drawing-off and squandering people’s dissent energy; pissing it into cyberspace.
But now that so many dissenters are gathering at sites like CD (CD alone has 150,000 independent URL hits per day, a CD editor recently told me), what’s to be done about it?
Ironically, we actually now need to continue gathering on sites like this, in order to get our fellow dissenters to understand that such sites may be disastrously displacing more direct, more effective forms of political action, if such cyberspace sites simply remain the beginning and end of our dissent, alone.
Dissenters, redical reformers, revolutionaries who see themselves as selling-out simply by working on multiple levels simultaneously (i.e. acting both within and without the System with equal fervor), don’t have a very realistic grasp of what it takes to actually bring about change in a powerfully corrupted system, like America’s.
The idea that you’re doing something useful if only you spout rage, violent revolution, survivalsim, or pure cynacism, anonymously, on websites, is more than delusional. It’s self-defeating.
Psycho-sociologically, progressives’ commisserative cyberspace hugging is really nothing but left wing crypto-narcissism — posturing hypocritical objections to the more successful, overt narcissism of the Right.
If you’ve been watching Ken Burns’ WWII documentary, on PBS, you see that good Americans were at that time able to summon courage to fight an external, dire enemy — and defeat it.
I know it’s hard to admit that a similar, even more subtle enemy, has now captivated America’s own internal governance. But it has.
And it’ll do no good to thwart it, if all we can do is just wring our hands and safely denounce it on computer chats.
This isn’t the 1970’s; and people, I think, are realizing that the protests which started before the war haven’t done much of anything. As for numbers, unless you have over 100 million people and are willing to destroy some property, make strong demands, and risk your lives, I’m afraid a protest isn’t going to work. Maybe if people protested for democracy like in Burma, there would be a bigger reaction - if enough people could publicly acknowledge that Bush was never elected president and that the political system is not democratic and not working - that would be interesting.
Lobo Gris said,
“The politicians ignore the internet at their own peril…”
Are you kidding? The politicians don’t give a damn about anything, the Internet included. Look, your president has already been chosen for you, and you only have the choice to pick and vote for the devil or deep sea. Sure, you can vote for a third party candidate, or even for yourself, but they won’t make it, and neither would you.
As for the politicians, know that they will come out of the voting machines that leave no paper trail, and no one would be able to prove anything. The only effective way is the one that the Constitution provides, to wit: When…a well-armed militia…
Many millions of protesters around the world protested the Iraq invasion before it began. They were entirely ignored.
Then, a couple of years ago, more millions of students and other people took to the streets in support of immigrants’ rights. They could safely be ignored, partly because so many of them were not citizens, and partly because many of them were students. (Further, I assure you, that although the left supports them undoncitionally, for the most part, they will not come out against the war. In fact, if you want to see enthusiasm for anything in a high school crowd of mostly immigrant youth, just mention the armed forces.) But the lesson is that if the government can ignore that many people, it can certainly ignore the much smaller numbers the peace movement can mobilize.
The media has been ignoring demonstrations for decades.
Saul Alinsky said we must always take our methods outside of the experience of those we’re opposing. We need new methods of protest. WE might be able to mount an effective boycott or strike of some sort. But I am not going to another useless demo. Unless we can shut stuff down long enough to make ourselves felt by the establishment, our efforts are meaningless.
That’s right. There is nothing equivocal about showing your face, putting your body on the line. Actually I think police brutality may have something to do with the growing lack of enthusiasm for protests. And also it has gotten more difficult and expensive to travel to a demonstration. People are alienated from each other and have a hard time seeing a larger common purpose. This is one thing I’m trying to address in my blog at http://goodwordswan.wildflowerstew.com
The following article originally appeared on WTPNet.org at http://www.wtpnet.org
I feel that it is relevant to the question posed above as to what the progressive movement needs to do, in order to effectively counter the rising fascism. We need to switch gears and go after the root of all of our problems.
–
The Second Constitutional Convention:
Strike the Root, End the War.
The endless wars of the Bush Regime are probably the number one issue on people’s minds in this country, and indeed the world. There are many thoughts going through people’s minds, such as:
“When will it end? Will my child end up in the war? Will I have to go? Will my child come home alive? Will I die?”
For a great many folks, sadly, these questions have already been answered. Some of them have finally found peace, while the others struggle with the pieces. And it is the people, not the so-called leaders, who are left holding the bag, uncertain whether our world is fixable.
If there is one thing on this planet that there is not a shortage of, I would say that would have to be exploitation. For example, around the world children are exploited for labor, or worse; women have been exploited for labor, sex, etc.; and of course, there are the soldiers who are exploited for profit and power. The victims of Katrina were exploited for their homes and communities. Add to this the corporate exploitation of the environment, labor, and communities, and we all begin to feel a bit like we’re naked, with no fig leaf, and nowhere to hide. Besides, with all the NSA spy satellites looking down at us and a militarized law enforcement, it probably wouldn’t do any good to try.
So what do you do? What CAN we do?
What can we possibly do that’s going to make a difference?
Upon consideration of this, I realized along with many others, that people tend to approach political problems from an illogical perspective.
For example, say the issue is people losing their livelihoods and communities because some mining corporation had more of a right to blow up their mountains then the people’s right to remain in their own communities and enjoy a clean, healthy environment for their children.
Another example is the situation in New Orleans. Most reasonable people would agree, that what is going on there is a clear case of the intentional economic cleansing of a region’s population, based on race and economic class, for the purpose of wealth and power acquisition. The government and their wealthy buddies saw an opportunity in the hurricane, and exploited it so that they would end up with full control over the region and its resources.
And another example is 9/11. The government has grossly exploited that tragedy for their own gain, both politically and personally. The Bush Administration, as well as the Congress and courts, have shamelessly used that event to justify military occupations, indefinite detention centers, the overthrow of our system of Constitutional government, the commission of numerous war crimes, terrorizing and killing innocent civilians, empire building, obstructing any real effort on climate change reform, on and on and on and on…
If you see a pattern forming here, you’re not alone. Many people understand the problem. What seems to be elusive, is the solution.
Now when I say that people tend to approach political problems from an illogical perspective, what I am saying is that there is a fundamental flaw in the object of their campaign. An analogy might help clarify.
Whenever an individual or organization sets out to complete a complex task, whether it is starting a new business, building a skyscraper, or building an education, they start from the ground up. Makes sense, right? You start with a strong foundation and work your way up.
Another analogy is more down to earth. You have a noxious weed in your garden. It needs to come out, but how? Do you pull it by its stems and leaves? No. It’s going to break and probably come back worse. To get the weed out, you grab it by the roots, dig them with a shovel if necessary, and pull the sucker out.
So why should it be any different with our approach to political problems? In all our varied and worthy causes, a common observation stands out, and that is that we tend to be too narrowly focused on smaller issues (the stems and leaves) without fully addressing the underlying cause (the root). This is not to belie the activists involved, nor the significance of their many accomplishments.
All three of the examples of exploitation above, as well as thousands of others, could be more effectively addressed, with more lasting results, by going after the root; which in this case is the corruption of government , excessive corporate power and influence, and fundamental flaws in the process that would allow ordinary people to become active participants in government.
That is why I advocate for the Second Constitutional Convention that would bring a series of People’s Amendments to the Constitution. Our authority to call such a Convention is rooted in the Declaration of Independence, our original founding document.
So what you say…that was original authority. We don’t have that any more. Well the Supreme Court in 1803 under Chief Justice John Marshall would disagree with you. In the decision of Marbury v. Madison (1803), Chief Justice Marshall writes, and I’ll link to it here, because we all need to read it. The last three pages of the decision have the important passages, starting with:
___
” The question, whether an act, repugnant to the constitution, can become the law of the land, is a question deeply interesting to the United States; but, happily, not of an intricacy proportioned to its interest. It seems only necessary to recognise certain principles, supposed to have been long and well established, to decide it.
—
Here is the link to the complete court decision.
http://www.wtpnet.org/documents/marburyvmadison1803.html
I hear many arguments on the left against embracing a Constitutionally-based or “founder”-based ideology. Their reasons are all sound, after all, these documents were all drafted by rich white men looking at keeping themselves that way. No one’s arguing that, or the fact that the Constitution is far from perfect. But in allowing your biases to control the debate, you miss one vital point.
It doesn’t matter why or who wrote it. What matters, is that it exists. The mere fact that the Declaration of Independence sits enshrined under glass at the National Archives is evidence enough to show the document for what it is, our country’s founding document, and our original authority. The above Supreme Court decision verifies this authority as well as the requirement of government to adhere to their Sworn Oath of Office.
The Constitution does not govern the people. The Constitution is the document that WE created to control the activity and scope of government. Nothing more. The Bill of Rights were only inserted to remind government not to overstep its delegated authority. The preamble to the Declaration of Independence establishes the people’s authority. The Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution ensure the people’s continuation of that authority.
The We The People Network website at www.wtpnet.org includes an online Global Community Forum set up to debate these and other important issues. Current Amendments being proposed are:
28th Amendment - to remove the Rights of Persons from Corporations.
29th Amendment - to provide a mechanism for the people to enforce the Sworn Oath of Office.
30th Amendment - to repeal all laws relating to the criminalization of Marijuana, in all its forms.
31st Amendment - to level the playing field when it comes to political campaigns, elections and lobbying.
Please join in the debate and support the Second Constitutional Convention!
Historically speaking, there have been some sorts of protests which affect change:
* A very large-scale protest, perhaps a magnitude of millions, and long-term unrest backed with civil unrest/riots, etc. (what the Vietnam era was becoming).
* One which ramps-up to an uncontrollable riot/surge and goes inside the castle walls (Bastille).
* One of armed resistance (not technically a “protest” so much as a revolution).
* Protest which causes a martyrdom situation and symbolism that cannot be rewritten for political gain by the detractors (Kent State).
* Professional protest. Civil servants, scholars, etc. who simply refuse to work for tyrants. Certainly in the case of lower-ranking law enforcement, FBI field agents, or soldiers, they face harsh repercussions for outward insubordination, AWOL, etc.
But I think Americans have reached a point of weary impatience. I don’t at all read this as apathy. On the contrary, I’ve met middle-aged and elderly who are incensed with D.C.’s insanity. There is lack of organization, to be sure, but there is also the feeling — I think — that protest doesn’t really accomplish much.
I think most Americans are hoping for a “velvet revolution”. They hope to wake up some day to read, over their cup of coffee, that some branch of the Secret Service, FBI or military had been assembling files on corrupt politicians, collecting video, etc. and had house-arrested the White House, and a good portion of Congress. They were then putting out a call for new leadership and swift clean/monitored/non-electronic elections with an international team of observers.
i agree with WTF….there is an anti-war,being fought in cyberspace…but it is like the felling of a tree in the forest….does anybody hear it?does anybody care ?it keeps us all ‘contained’virtually..and out of their hair..so that they are free to plunder and murder and carry on with their criminal activities and mayhem.
KNOW YOUR ENEMY
1. Writing letters to Congressman doesn’t work anymore, we tried. Washington does’t work for us. They work for corporate America.
2. Protesting at D.C. doesn’t work anymore: most protests don’t work since the Media is owned by those corps and ignores it.
3. Civil disobedience on the streets is coming, they know it, they’ve built 800 FEMA prisons for you.
4. A National Strike is all that is left. You must prepare now. Don’t buy anything; hoard the cash for food later.
YOUR ENEMY IS NOT a CONGRESSIONAL PUPPET OR THE PRESIDENT. YOUR ENEMY IS Callous, Greedy CEO’s of the Fortune-500. (the theatrical: “man behind the curtain.”)
Sitting in your house blogging and convincing fellow frustrated citizens to entertain the idea of staying home from work with the “Blue Flu” in huge numbers will cripple your Enemy: . If a quarter of the workforce stays home it will bring the Fortune 500 to it’s knees. And in the South, those boys are armed to the teeth; so forget about the sheriff showing up to pull you out of your house and force you to work!
We must take to the Republicrat websites and get our frustrated citizens on board.
This could work. It has worked at job sites throughout American Union history.
Say the Words: NATIONAL STRIKE
on your side baby,
pac
so what did end the war in the 60s?
what ended the war was when the peace movement got behind McGovern and took over the democratic party. although he didn’t win against nixon, it still showed the democratic leadership that they had better listen to their base, or they were going to get thrown out.
so what will end the war now? the anti war movement getting behind Dennis Kucinich for president and throwing out the democratic party leadership.
i agree with pac.
don’t buy
sell the stocks if you hold them.
etc.
but at the end of the day, at this hour, its sad to see so many fuck ups in our movement, bickering and infighting.
no wonder bush is laughing, and as he said when asked a few weeks ago: “you’d be surprised at how well i sleep.”
I still say that the first step could be unseating Pelosi. If Cindy sheehan doesnt shoot herself in the foot and stops making off the cuff excuses for Pelosi she might have a chance. Should she win it would send shock waves through the DNC if not the whole Washington establishment. It’s worth a try with your contributions it could happen. It’s a project that is tangible, it is a project that could reap rewards and we should be talking it up at CD and any other progressive blog you scribble in.
kucinich
Let me clarify,
This a chess game, and we are losing badly. My solution is not to discount the first three tactics, for they do indeed put psychological pressure on the puppets. I am concerned with endgame play, which I feel will decide the game. Cutting off the money to the party machine has always worked in the past. Since congress won’t do it, we have to. And we do that by making sure that the only thing a Robber Baron cares about is in peril: his investments, his corporate empire.
Remove earnings per share at your ENEMY’S bottom line and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.
Will you lose your job?
Will you lose your house?
Not likely. A month of rebellion for mysterious ailments, and failing to make three mortgage payments will not start foreclosure (trust me, I know firsthand. Most states this takes up to six months.) The mortgage system cannot digest all the current defaults and foreclosures right now, they aren’t even repossessing most houses because the housing market is dead and they don’t want to assume the taxes and maintenance: they don’t want to be stuck with more houses they can’t sell.
Give me Liberty, or Give me death!
(and all we’re asking the sheeple to risk is unemployment!)
pacplyer
I agree that trying to work within the existing system is no good. We need to change tactics. The problem as I see it is a lack of any real alliance between the various movements around the country. I’m talking about all the social, environmental, labor and the peace movements. We all have common dreams here.(pun intended)It’s time we recognize our common ground.
Take a good look at the root of many of our country’s problems. I believe they can all be traced to root causes such as corruption in government, unchecked corporate power, and unfair election practices.
How do we fix it, I mean really fix it?
We the people need a mechanism to enforce the Sworn Oath of Office.
We the people need to remove the rights that are the rights of flesh and blood people from the corporations.
We the people need to reform the election process and the media industry at the same time by mandating equal time for all candidates, regardless of the election. This time would be provided free to all candidates as a public service by the media as payback for the people allowing them to use the public air waves for profit. This would balance out the class war that currently keeps good people without millions of dollars out of office.
Political contributions of any kind would be banned. No lobbying involving money or favors. Politicians get paid their salary, no more. This would get rid of most corruption.
And finally, we the people need to end the ludicrous prohibition on the most useful plant on the planet, Cannabis. Remove the plant from it’s listing as a controlled substance and instead treat it like tobacco or beer. This would make it legal to grow hemp for industry, as well as marijuana for medicine. This plant can produce 55 barrels of oil pressed from hemp seed, per acre, per year. This is far superior to any other plant being considered for biofuels. I can go on and on with this plant’s benefits.
The best way to achieve the above goals, that doesn’t involve violence, is for all these varied groups to come together and organize for the Second Constitutional Convention. It is not only our right, it is actually possible. Never has the political environment been so ripe for just such a movement. Please support this idea and share it with others.
Peace and solidarity,
Paul Fisher
We The People Network
http://www.wtpnet.org
mail@wtpnet.org
Pacplyer’s got it correct. We need to withhold our money and starve the beast. Problem is, enough people have to do it for it to have any significant effect.
sniffingratty (8:10 pm ) writes, “so what did end the war in the 60s? …what ended the war was when the peace movement got behind McGovern and took over the democratic party. although he didn’t win against nixon, it still showed the democratic leadership that they had better listen to their base, or they were going to get thrown out.”
Unfortunately, this is a completely ahistorical fairy tale. The war’s end had nothing to do with McGovern, nor with the “Democratic Party,” which supported the war every bit as much as the Republicans. There was NOTHING that “showed the Democratic leadership they had better listen to their base.” Such a thing never happened. (In fact, many influential Democratic leaders helped sabotage the McGovern campaign, & to some extent, McGovern only became the nominee in the first place, because he was considered by Dem Party insiders to be most likely to lose.)
The war ended because of several converging factors. First, there was still a draft until 1973. This contributed enormously to the war’s unpopularity, because middle class kids could be forced to go to Vietnam. Second, media portrayals of the conflict, though extremely subservient to the official government position, were still not 100% subservient. Every now and then a bit of truth leaked through, & this had a big effect on public opinion. (In Iraq, by contrast, today’s media is 100% in line with the government position.) Third, much of the business community decided after the Tet Offensive (Jan ‘69) that the cost-benefit of continuing the war was no longer favorable. (Among other things, Nixon’s halting the the dollar’s convertibility to gold in Aug 1971 reflected serious balance-of-payments problems, partly attributable to the war.)
READ - Harpers Magazine, Oct. issue. Editor calls for a National Strike, Nov. 7th, 2007.
Your politicians don’t have any power. It’s unfortunate but they’ve been purchased already by Big Money. Trying to significantly change their ways is not exactly a waste of time but don’t expect much for your efforts. Many of them will lie and do anything they can to trick you into supporting them. By all means, continue to let them know what your wishes are but don’t expect much.
PacPlyer, if even 10% of Americans stopped shopping, stayed home with the mysterious ailment you mentioned, the whole American enterprise system would suffer.
Some peace advocates I know are circulating the idea of a 2007 NO SHOP WINTER HOLIDAY. That means, no presents. Ahhhhh. nice. Children will feel neglected: What, no presents for Meeeee? It’ll be a healthy lesson for them. Sometimes, peace and love are more important than your presents. Give them extra kisses instead and a fun day at the park with a big thermos full of hot chocolate and some sandwiches. Make your own presents. Have a party. Sing carols, organize a hayride, make cookies, decorate a growing tree in your neighborhood, make their favorite dinner. Think of all the fun and no one would have to shop. Ugh.
People would love an excuse not to shop and at the same time help to bring the war to an end.
I ask that you seriously consider voting and supporting a Green or other 3rd party candidate. Give our failing-grade politicians what they deserve - Their walking papers. What do we have to lose by not playing along with the continuing move to the right, enabled always by the “lessor of two evils” voting strategy.
This article is completely prowar. It’s divide and conquer rubbish focused on a schism within the broad spectrum of antiwar groups.
The September 15th Protest March had over 30,000 people in the march. ANSWER said 100,000.
I was there. I saw the column. I have the video. Mr. Sullivan must not have been there or he’d have seen the crowds. At least another 30,000-40,000 lined the steets and counterprotesters were 1,000 or so (are their numbers down, too?).
Sullivan quotes “activists say” without citing his source! This to prove the central theme of his article–that the antiwar movement is fractured. It is anything but. Not only is the movement unified, it is constituted by mainstream people who just want us out. It’s the extremist looneys who imagine their way to victory and confuse dissent with disloyalty.
This reporting is completely inaccurate, inadequately cited, and purely speculative. Now if Mr. Sullivan actually covered the major march on September 15th, he could have reported accurately both on the number of people and thier unity.
The antiwar movement is getting stronger. More and more people are joining every day.
“Largely absent from the actions are young people” Sullivan states. He must not have seen the thousand of so antiwar marchers from George Mason there on September 15th. And yes, there were counterprotesters there too, students and others, who were outnumbered 30 to 1.
Reuters should be ashamed of falsifying the attendance numbers and not fact-checking. The bias is remarkable. Common Dreams should pull this article immediately.
Reuters is part of the MSM. Don’t believe anything they say. From my own calculations, more and more people are not only joining the anti-war movement but also participating in progressive movements, for example, this past Monday in NYC there was a citywide school walk-out in solidarity with Jena 6.
Why are so many of us waiting for others to jump on the bandwagon? I say, drive your own fucking bandwagon! If others jump on, great, if not, at least YOU’RE the one driving!
I too throw my hat in with those trying to starve the corporate beast. Do a little research on corporate personhood and you will see what’s really in control now. Want to stop the beast? Stop feeding it! Consume less. Yes, you! Yeah, you, right there reading these words. Yeah, I mean you, personally, like me - stop buying so much shit! The more shit you buy, the stronger the beast gets. Stop it!
We’re killing ourselves and each other with our consumption. What say we stop?
Here’s just one way (and a great one): http://www.yourmoneyoryourlife.org/
Beg, borrow, or steal it (Abby Hoffman would approve) and start driving.
JBPeebles:
I was there too. I estimated 200K people there, and 1K of counter demonstrators.
No press reports, except to note that it was unfortunate that the protesters were not “middle Americans”.
Hey press - what do you call the hundreds of grandparents, parents with children, and college-age kids, along with all manner of young, middle-age and older people, veterans, and just plain folks.
I swear that the press is so into bed with the government. I cannot for the life of me understand how or why.
lucas,
Just put a photo of yourself on the internet and save them the trouble.
Something sounds fishy in this story. If I were a spook on a mission I’d get myself a cellphone with a camera, find out your regular daily pattern, casually place myself on a sidewalk, etc. pretend to make a call, and take a photo. Why the open display of identity? Serves no purpose at all.
Good story, though. I hope it’s not genuine.
I was in the protest March in Washington DC on Sept 15. It was a huge crowd. We were packed in about 15 across, shoulder to shoulder. I had to pay attention to where I was walking, because there was someone right in front of me, and right behind me also. At one point, I wiggled out to the curb and hopped up on the base of a lamp post to get my head above the crowd. As far as I could see back to towards the white house and as far as I could see toward the capital building, the street was jammed packed full of us. I could see about 5-6 blocks in both directions. I don’t know what the crowd size was beyond my sight. The Associated Press reported 100,000 people were there that day. I don’t know how that classifies as a shrinking protest.
Berry
Even when demonstrations aren’t covered by the US media and don’t force policy changes, they still mean a lot to people in the world who are adversely affected by US policies. Our media may not cover demonstrations, but media from other countries often do, and I’ve been told many times by people from other countries that any protest within the US gives them some hope. For that reason alone, I consider US demonstrations to be important.
That said, I think it’s debatable whether or not the protests even of the 60s and 70s actually ended the war. We know from internal documents that Nixon et al had to take public disruption into account, but there’s no clear link between the protests and a forced end to the Vietnam War. However, I defy anyone to read the multitudinous accounts of the antiwar and progressive activism of that era and not feel hopeful and inspired by it, to actual feel the zeitgeist of the times. It was not just young people participating; it was across society and not limited to law-abiding, circumscribed marches and chants. It was active and serious in a way that people have been brainwashed away from now.
It is distressing that there are so few young people who are actively opposed to the war these days. I don’t think it’s just because they’re hopeless or that they think activism is ineffectual. I think they’ve been brainwashed by media to be appalled by taking any kind of progressive political stances. TV show after TV show, movie after movie, makes progressive sentiment the butt of jokes, and young people have been raised on that and don’t want to be ridiculed by their peers. I think that’s the main problem.
And the internet doesn’t do shit. People achieved a lot more before they were glued to their seats in front of a screen pretending they were privy to more information that at any time in history. The moment Nixon declared that he was invading Cambodia, millions of Americans poured into the streets, campuses were shut down, government offices were occupied, people got serious about preventing the slaughter. The ensuing murders at Kent State didn’t slow it down. If that happens today, what does the US public do? They sit in front of computer screens and pretend that sending messages back and forth is accomplishing something. It doesn’t do shit. Plus, it can be tracked by those interested in spying on you. Get serious.
Paul,
Lucas’ story sounds plausible. Nobody ever said that government turds are bright. The clear intent here is intimidation so they are not trying to conceal the survailence.
Anybody ever watch the movie “Enemy of the State”? Love that flick (it’s really not very farfetched at all.) Since there’s no more real 911’s going on, these guys have nothing else to do.
During Union job actions, the company I worked for hired detectives and this sort of thing happened to me several times. It is low-cost harrassment that usually scares the heard into inaction.
Don’t give in to fear.
pac
Has anyone heard George Carlin’s protest song? The lyrics are as follows:
Don’t want no war
Don’t want no war
Don’t want no war
Don’t want no JOB EITHER
There will never be a mass movement against imperialist war until there is a mass movement against imperialism. Yes, protest helped to end the Vietnam War, but today Vietnam welcomes Sweatshops International, Inc. into its economy. The war in Iraq is capitalism in crisis. The war must end, and the political economy of greed must end as well. There is an alternative called socialism. It’s akin to economic democracy. And it scares Republicans and Democrats to death.
Yes, Berry Picker. Lots of people on September 15.
It was on a weekend day, though.
A strike would be more effective. Plan it for a week day. Bring the gears to a grinding halt.
Oh Martin, Robert and John …
God I am melancholy for the war protest songs of the 60’s and 70’s. As much as I hated it then (the war, the injustice to blacks), I actually wish for a return of that spirit that we all seemed to share.
I am so sick of this entertainment society where one can be lulled asleep and deafened and dumbed to what is going on.
What’s going on …
Huh! What is it good for?
The Internet informs you now.
The Internet informs you but will not choose for you.
If you want to stop a war…
Fight for it, because that what it will take, more than walking in the street with banners, on planned days…. Get together always, sacrifice yourselves, for the cause…. By the way its not just about war, it about how your being controlled.
The protest of today involves contacting and raising the resources over the net. Note the hulabaloo over the moveon.org ad. This type of “ad” will get more media play than a protest will. It will cost the person less than the time and expense of traveling to a site will.
We are using the corporates own game against them.
Note the following “ad”
ATTENTION:
Mr. President and Members of Congress.
Be you Democrats, Republicans, Independents or, any other flavor of politician.
We the People … Sent you a message at the election last November.
You … Did not listen.
We the People … Voted in the polls over the previous months.
You … Have not listened.
We the People … Have shown repeatedly that your approval rating stinks.
You … Are still not listening.
We the People … Must regretfully conclude that you have no intention of listening.
You … Seem not to care what we desire.
THEREFORE:
We the People … Who are the activists who volunteer our time to your campaigns.
We the People … Who contribute freely of our talents to you.
We the People … Who donate our MONEY to further your chosen profession.
We the People … Are now forced to turn our time, resources and MONEY in another direction.
BECAUSE:
You … Choose to disregard us. Choose to make light of our contributions.
You … Have forgotten that we are the activists that vote in the primaries.
You … Ignore the fact that we help promote Get Out The Vote campaigns.
You … Take our MONEY and then do as you please.
BE IT RESOLVED:
We the People … Will no longer give of our time, resources and MONEY to support you.
We the People … Will turn you out at the next Primary or General Election.
We the People … Are sick and tired of your actions or non-actions, as the case may be.
UNLESS:
You … Show us that you are listening to us. Remember us? We the People?
You … Do it decisivly, without nuance, without dissembling.
You … Stop putting your petty partican politics in front of our desires.
YOU THINK ABOUT IT:
We the People … Produced this ad. It took time. It took resources and talents. It takes MONEY to run it.
You .. Did NOT get any of that. Will you continue to “Not Get It?”
WE THE PEOPLE … Have spoken. Are speaking again. Will continue to speak.
YOU … Have a choice. 1: To listen. or 2: To not listen. Pick one.
STOP THE WAR IN IRAQ … NOW.
WE THE PEOPLE … Are Watching.
WE THE PEOPLE … Will be back.
http://Citizens4.US/WTP.swf
very good suggestions. but i think the best is the ’stop feeding the beast’ scenario. go to: www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/08/387/ or google the site for ’stop shopping’. i know it’s aimed more at the environment, but just look at some of the comments - especially the first by tiny footprint………….and look what happened recently in the uk when the people thought the building societies were in trouble. they were inundating the outlets to withdraw their money. it just takes a whisper to start a panic……………
If this is the case then sign up at http://peacesource.net/ get the numbers on the internet. Email.
I am putting a join up form soon.
This site is to unite the peace movement. Book virtual office space, use the contact lists to swamp international leaders with messages.
Giuliani wants to nuke. Listen to Gravel. We have to unite in a single powerful force. Network the site, the mathematics are good five join and get another five we can get the globe.
how about trying a no shopping day, pick a day in the week, and everyone stop shopping on that day, hit the corporations where it hurts in the wallet, marching has so far been ignored, there is no representative government so your letters can also be ignored, remember what Bush said, support the war go shopping.
Or maybe pull a sickie, everyone on the same day, don’t go to work, don’t switch on the TV, take the day off do nothing, take a leaf out of Ghandi’s book just sit down in the streets doing nothing, no signs are necessary, let the politicians come to you.
Most of my points have already been addressed.
Protesting with no media coverage only is a protest for the choir and a few commuters who generally feel pissed off by the inconvenience. It needed to be done, and has been done many many times.
Even if this statement is inaccurate, it hasn’t reached those who have any influence. The executive and legislative branches are unmoved. What would seem even more influential than protests are actual polls that reflect a true majority. These polls show that the protesters are the voice of America and not just some special interest group. These polls say America wants this war to end yet this is still ignored by the powers that be. This appears to be political suicide as it doesn’t reflect the will of the constituent, and if a politician no longer is answering to their constituents, than the system is broken, and no action by the public will have any effect.
Infighting amongst the different groups within the resistance movement? I can’t speak for the whole. My own experience was like something out of Life of Brian. This may not have been typical within the movement, but I never met so many annoying odd people who seemed more to be getting involved as a social outlet because no one else could stand them.
About “starving the beast”, can someone tell me practically how this will work? I mean go from A-B. Start with the strike and follow all the steps to the end of the war.
From all I can see, the big problem with this generation of CEOs is that it is a snatch and grab mentality. In the past, the money men seemed to look for sustainable business prospects. They wanted a financial empire to pass on to their families for generations. This day it seems like there is little concern for tomorrow. Look at Bush and Cheney. Cheney knew this would be a disaster which is why he was an apologist for not going into Baghdad the first time. It would seem the only rationale that changed was getting Haliburton more cash. Since he knew this would be a disaster he must have known it would not be a long term sustainable business venture for Haliburton, just a fast cash spike.
My theory is that those at the top see a collapse as unavoidable. Oil is running out, and demand is growing. Look how much of a dent on natural resources a country of just 300 mil has made, now 2 countries of a billion each (India,, China) are in the game. I think they believe the shit is going to hit the fan and now is the time to squirrel away as many nuts as possible because a crash is coming. Attempts to starve them may only cause them to grab even more if my theory is correct.
Hopefully I’m wrong and you’re right, but again please tell me step by step of each domino along the way that will start with a strike and end with the end of the war. I can’t see it from where I’m standing, nor do I see families with children participating in such a risky venture to their own security, or people who are 1 paycheck away from personal disaster which seems to be a common thing in the country these days.
#
Saila October 3rd, 2007 5:58 pm
Lobo Gris said,
“The politicians ignore the internet at their own peril…”
Are you kidding? The politicians don’t give a damn about anything, the Internet included.”
No I’m not kidding. All the outrage and despair expressed on this site and many others turns into votes at election time. 2006 was just a prelude. We didn’t get what we wanted but it wasn’t because we the people didn’t try. I would also say that the 11% Congressional approval ratings after the change to the Democrats in 2006 wasn’t because of the reporting by the MSM.
“Look, your president has already been chosen for you, and you only have the choice to pick and vote for the devil or deep sea.”
The President has only been chosen for us if we allow them to. I say it often but the definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same action, voting Democrat or Republican while each time expecting different results.
“Sure, you can vote for a third party candidate, or even for yourself, but they won’t make it, and neither would you.”
It most likely won’t happen as long as people like yourself keep screaming that it can’t. Positive change never comes from the word CAN’T. And that is not to say that change is 100% guaranteed in 2008, but how will we know if we don’t try? The alternative is to once again have the lesser of two evils, to be constantly complaining about the status of the world, because we once again rewarded the politicians that ignore us by returning them to public office
Lobo Gris
Umlaut,
What a pertinent insightful question. Rather than stating your inexperienced opinion as most do here, you have proffered the most reasonable, logical and thoughtful question possible. Are you a scientist? Oh, thank God, that there is somebody out there like you. Keep checking these comments, I, along with other posters here, are formulating a response.
Who among you, have fought the Fortune 500 at close quarters?
I can tell you, from personal experience, that it’s not going to be pretty.
The “RingLeaders” like Cindy S. and myself are not going to survive.
That’s how ugly this is going to get. Billions of Robber Baron Plunder hang in the balance.
But you have to at some point ask yourself one question: Am I really an American anymore?
Do I have a happy life?…… free from corporate/gov oppression? Like my father and his father before?
If the answer is yes, then you wouldn’t probably be reading this web site, would you?
your fellow patriot,
fraternally,
pacplyer
In the very first comment, WTF wrote:” Until people organize and hit the streets to hurt business and the government where it counts (the pocket), there can be no progress.”
I have to disegree. “Hitting the streets does not hurt government or business. In fact, it is good for business ( think of increased profit from selling travel tickets, think of food industry, hotels…). The only thing which is proven and works is a general strike. French knows how to do this, and that is why French Government pays attention to the voices of the people.
But than in order to have general strike, you have to be organised in Unions or you have to have society involved in politics, like it happened in Poland during Solidarity movement, and you do not got this in USA. Here people are fed with sport events and are coached to stay passive. This in turn reminds me of Antient Rome…..
Peace.
Les.
The “stop feeding the beast” tactic is also from the mindset of an earlier age. With governments “privatized” your tax dollars will feed the beast regardless of what you do with your disposable income. Most of my income is not “disposable” anymore anyway…mortgage, insurance, utilities,food, car payment…and there’s not much left after that. Shall I choose to set my children adrift on the streets? The anti-abortion crowd has had huge protests in DC EVERY year for at least the last 20 years….you haven’t seen that on the news eaither…and it hasn’t been effective. What has been effective is the internal takeover of the Republican party…to some extent. What must be done here is an internal takeover of the Democratic Party, with the intent of wresting personhood from corporations. But the whole theory that anything can be done at all is moot… if the elections are rigged. Getting votes to count is the first priority. Otherwise we must adjust to the fact that we live in Imperial Rome…our Armies are the equivalent of the Roman legions, and our lives are inconsequetial to any political power. Wine and circus (TV) and the masses are quelled.
Umlaut,
You know there is the theory from the Mayan Calendar and the “Bible Code” that the world will end , or all but end, in 2012. Like you, I agree these guys are acting like the future doesn’t matter…so either they believe these theories,and the evidence begins to point that way…seed bank (ark) in frozen mountain in Norway, asteriod and comet explorations in high gear, pushing nuclear power , positioning for world oil at all cost…and these guys are acting like the future doesn’t matter(I know this makes me sound like a kook…but the facts make me uneasy) or they expect the Chinese to call the debt and the game is up…Maybe the Chinese are already pulling strings…saber rattling rhetoric sure dried up on the North Korea thing pretty quickly….
Umlaut,
For your consideration: a rough outline, subject to review and revision of others here, I what I envision would be a sucessful end game.
Here’s what’s going to happen should we elect, because our very liberty and freedom are at stake, to engage in a NATIONAL STRIKE against the Fortune 500.
THE PREPARATION:
a) we will seek funding from sympathetic millionaires/billionaires who adore the destruction of the constitution. An internet/letter campaign designed to attract like minded souls, as was done in 1774. Note: recall that without support from abroad the U.S. would have never been founded.
b) we will start an organizing effort to solicit all the disillusioned Republicans and Democrats who feel their parties have taken them down the wrong path. We will ONLY have as goals:
1. To recall and hold special recall paper-ballot-only elections for all of congress and the executive branch. We will do the same for supreme court justices that participated in selecting a president who clearly lost the popular vote in 2000 and, due to contamination of computer voting software, the 2004 election as well. (yes, justices will now be subject to vote by the people; NOT appointed.)
2. To end the war for oil, recognizing that the poles are melting, temperatures are soaring and that we are in a true emergency situation that the current administration has handled this crisis recklessly and against the will of the people.
3. All firings, arrests and other disputes by gov or corp forces will be pardoned and the record of those parties restored to the condition it was before the dispute took place.
No other goals will be part of this movement. So just forget about your pocket list of amendments and principles you want the whole world to follow. You can pursue those goals later.
FOCUS! We have to just do these three things to get all the third and individual parties on board. I don’t want to hear a peep about hot button issues like abortion or gays or trees or wales or taxes or social programs….
Those issues will only serve to divide us.
We have to pull together on Common Ground/Dreams if we are going to harness the groundswell of outrage that is now rising.
We can all agree on three things: to throw out all these bums and start over… and to keep the Fortune 500 out of government or have their assets frozen and put back into the general fund, to end the war, and to pardon foot soldiers of the movement. Anything further will not bridge the boundaries of all the parties we need to have on board.
THE ACTION:
for this SOS (suspension of service) to be credible, we must pull in any and all current day activists (Defecting Republicrats, Nader, Sheean, Jackson, Sharpton, hell even the commie party and Arnold Swartzenegger if he will do it.) and INSIST that they give up their individual agendas and causes and pledge to achieve only these two goals. I mention Arnold because, his camp (Readen) has experience in outing corrupt politicians. They got rid of the California Governor Davis in 2003 who didn’t give any concern to popular opinion. In other words, we’re going to take anybody we can get.
We will solicit support from the brave Generals and Admirals who have endured this incompetent commander-in-chief for their advice and help in our hour of great constitutional distress.
We will hire the best legal talent we can find to frame our position in light of the egregious legal violations of the constitution which clearly give us the right to redress grievances of this government.
We will declare a NATIONAL STRIKE for 30 days, and a 90 day suspension of all financial bills you might have (yes especially your mortgage.) This will get us a seat at the player’s table for serious discussions.
We will not capitulate on our three main objectives. The only thing to negotiate is what form the restitution of the constitution will comprise.
This is so important, that any form of civil disobedience we will declare out of our control. We will not condemn anything.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN:
The fortune 500 will unleash their legal team and sue everybody of importance. They will hire security forces, either through the government or directly: Blackwater, Wackenhut, the Pinkertons, and try to intimidate everyone in to going back to work.
This happened with the auto makers in the 40’s and 50’s in Detroit. Many were shot by the Pinkerton’s in their houses for not showing up at the assembly line.
The strings will be pulled on the Congressional puppets, emergency laws will be passed and Bush will declare martial law.
We will take our cars out, run out of gas on the key roads, lock our doors, walk home, shut off the main breaker to the house and sit in the dark for 30 days with candles, taking turns reading the constitution, federalist papers, and the declaration of independence.
Certain patriots will do much, much more from the inside.
At the end of thirty days, illnesses over, we will return to work but continue defaulting on our obligations for the next 60 days or until the bill of rights (the first ten amendments) is restored by voiding the patriot act and all other unconstitutional acts passed over the last twenty years.
Then if nothing happens, we’ll do it again, double the periods of corporate punishment.
Hostages will be taken by the administration and by the corporations, fake truces will be declared, the internet will be cut, and all manner of other mayham and intimidation will ensue.
BUT YOU MUST NOT GIVE IN.
The above is just fiction, as all my posts are,
pacplyer
Item 3 is supposed to read protest victims fired by gov or corporations are pardoned,
regards
When the war machine has all the cards it is difficult if not impossible to effectively protest except in one way, put down your tools and don’t pay any taxes. You as an American citizen could just pack up and leave but with so many Mexicans and the like waiting at the door you wouldn’t be missed. The fact is the neocons have got you all by the bollocks but you brought it on yourselves for the most part, you accepted the 9/ll cobblers without question, you were on the streets shouting for OBL’s head when it was clear to most sane people of the world he is an ISI agent.
If you’re young and healthy another country would be a better option than the USA because the longer you stay, particularly the college educated, the deeper the mire will become. The Bush gang like all fascist regimes can’t function without an educated class and that is their archilles heal.
Getting on the streets and protesting just gives the fascists an excuse to beat the hell out of you and the media just show you as an aggressor, that is why few people take part. The Gandhi way is the best way, non-coperation, switch off your TV and Radio and see the advertised products take a beating. Cancel your cable and satellite service and then hear them squeall. What would the fascists do if you closed down their media outlets after all it’s your money they’re using against you.
Well, non-cooperation, the Ghandi way may be the only way. Going to Washington to protest is expensive, the number of protestors are always under-counted, and there is little press coverage. If you are fortunate enough to live in a congressional district where your representative votes “for the people” and against the war, although it makes you less frustrated, nothing good happens.
My husband and I (we’re really old) have the feeling that our country is falling off a cliff. We are even talking about getting some bullets for our rifle!! There is a feeling of imminent disaster because the majority cannot control the country’s direction.
Even if you don’t end up doing a Ghandi, by all means make sure you have food stored, access to water and cash on hand.
We are all living with seething frustration; makes you understand the French Revolution.
A national strike is not going to work because many of us are not in a position to take off a day let alone a month off work. We need the money to feed our families and what about our bosses, I mean why would they want to lose their workers. Most Americans simply cant do this and keep their current jobs which are tied to health benefits. As for no shopping, it wont fly because most people will buy Christmas presents. It wont make a diddly squat of difference in the annual holiday frenzy. I hate CHristmas adn I hate shopping, and do it mostly online, since I hate the virus infested mall, but even I will spend about $100 on our family. Starving the kids of presents isnt gonna change anything, really. I am dissillusioned with marching. Every 2-3 weeks, I get emails saying this is the big one. It’s getting really old. I dont know what the solution is, but marching or not shopping or a national strike aren’t it.
Paul Fisher, thanks for the suggestion and I just joined We The People Network
http://www.wtpnet.org
I started a new thread called Peace movement tactics at http://www.wtpnet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9 with this intro:
“I registered to this movement from a suggestion of Paul Fisher in a discussion forum on Common Dreams at http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/03/4295/
This thread called US Protests shrink while Anti-War Sentiment grows and all the comments suggested to me that with all the different views, I would like a regular thread too talk about tactics and talk about what is working and what is not.
I myself am weary of folks who want to use tactics that would create a violent reaction from the Police and authorities. It seems that it is easy for folks who use an alias ID to talk tough about hitting the streets and shutting down the system but in the next breath they are warning us about new FEMA detention centers all ready to accommodate them.
One thing stands out today though and that is that the anti war feelings are growing and the polls show that while the demonstrations are getting smaller.
I suggest that this evidence that hitting the streets at this point in time is not working like Demonstration organizers want us to assume that they are or should be working.
I think they have been somewhat effective but in our new fascist State, the majority of folks in the US are already against War but do not want to be told to go march in the street and follow leaders who they don’t know, but have a bull horn.
I think We the People are educated enough and will continue to learn more from the internet… more then the MSM.
I believe we the People should take heart from the fact that we are turning minds to peace more effectively with the word at the keyboard and songs and art at this point then looking like a mob with signs that everyone has already seen before or already believes in.
So lets share our views on tactics and lets see if we can get better organized.”
ForUs, Jim
Thanks Paul Fisher, I joined up at We The People Network
http://www.wtpnet.org
This thread here inspired me to start one on We the People about Tactics of the Peace Movement…
If the Majority of the USA is becoming more Pro Peace while we have less turnout for hitting the streets, I think that success should tell us something about the power of the Word and the Internet over the sword.
ForUs, Jim
Besides changing minds with demonstrations and posting online on progressive forums like CD, what if we post progressive arguments respectfully on our opponent’s forums, don’t react and trade insults when they invariably insult us but take the opportunity to answer intelligently and convincingly? Isn’t “shilling” on their forums a most effective way of reaching conservatives?
I’ve tried it. It’s hard to keep your cool, but you can see it working if you refrain from insulting replies. As conservative shills on CD have found, it’s hard to argue with facts. When they try to, they expose themselves. Heck, we may be changing their minds.
Oops Sorry for the redundancy ,,,I thought the first post did not go through.
“Here is the London number - 442 087 921030″
Not trying to imply anything, but just curious, I called the number, it’s not recognised.
During WW2 when we in Britain stood alone against fascist Hitler we didn’t have much food or creature comforts, Christmas came and went and only the landed gentry had the resources to celebrate, the rest of us huddled in our shelters or if you were a Londoner, lived in the underground, making do.
I tell you all this because defeating fascisism is not easy, it takes courage and it takes sacrifice and I don’t think Americans have what it takes.
Scott Ritter - in his book, Waging Peace - asks, “rather than 100,000 people for one day, how about 1000 people for 100 days?”
I could use my frequent flyer miles to get to DC for one day, arrive on a red-eye, spend the day at the Capitol, skip the hotel room, sleep on the return trip home.
Better yet, how about 500 people for 365 days in every state capitol?
MoveOn has demonstrated that the Internet can be used to organize people to donate small amounts of money. How about donating small amounts of time?
I’d guess many who oppose the war see the futility of marching in the streets. It’s a bit like the tree falling in the wilderness, that no one is there to see (does it make a sound?). Protests are not covered in the media. It’s like shouting out of a moving car … or peeing upwind. Only something that the corporate ruling class can “hear” will affect policy.
All good points yes,
Ben Franklin in discussing these very same things, used the alias “Ms. Silence Dogood” and posted fictitious stories. There is nothing wrong with using an alias, or putting up your “stories” as fiction. Articles that appeared as fiction in the Philadelphia newspapers lead others to have the courage to post monumental works which changed all public opinion, e.g. the revolutionary pamphlet: “Common Sense” arguably the most influential writing in American Colonial History. Using an alias does not protect you from the government. They know who you are. But it prevents unwanted harassment from extreme/religious/neocons who see the world in terms of “right and wrong” and “us and them” and who regard everyone progressive as a Rush L. demonized “Liberal” that needs to be straightened out physically. I just don’t need that right now. I already experienced that kind of intimidation living in a Republican waterfront community.
Some here have elected to use their actual names, which is fine, but I feel it forces their position to be ineffective and extremely passive. I agree with those who say that the period of passive resistance is over. The colonists, faced with having all their mail opened and taxed depending on the content of that mail (the stamp act) decided, after exhausting all avenues with their officials, that they would take matters into their own hands and physically started pulling down the houses of these officials. This caused London to repeal the stamp act.
Thank you pistonbroke for your insight. I agree, that at this point, mainstream Americans do not have what it takes; they are not ready quite yet. But in the next round of abuses, that may change. Some, like you, are able to reveal important perspectives of having lived in a country darken by clouds of oppression. America has never known this, never experienced attack at home. Americans are scared for the most part. As you can tell by the muted responses here. I don’t blame them. Hitler had nothing on GWB.
My intent is not to suggest hasty action. I am merely soliciting reaction and ideas, so that when that time comes, we will have a plan. Not everybody sees this crisis the same. Some have never even heard of the Nazi buzz bombs and raids on the people of Great Britain during WWII (I know that sounds incredible, but teenagers I know are not getting this in history apparently.) Some are more concerned about shopping than protecting their liberty.
But from my readings, I know this was true also in 1775. The boycott of British goods started in Boston caused the colonists to experience terrible shortages of everything necessary to keep up their way of life. Tea, clothing, glass, dishes, molasses (for rum,) parchment paper, iron, tools, spectacles; all the things families depend on were suddenly unavailable.
This boycott of 1775, did not win the war, but it hurt the bottom line of the elite Merchants of London, and caused great agitation in parliament. Right now, we have a complete failure to agitate congress.
The lesson of history is: no one thing wins the war, but collectively enough pressure is brought to bear that it can not longer be ignored.
Do everything you can guys. Be willing to make personal sacrifices.
All the best,
pac
Lucas,
FYI
I just googled ‘442087921030 London’
and this message was located on a music web sight:
“Anyone ever get a call from these numbers: +5112363482, +442087921030. I just did and 511… was some guy yelling at me in what I think was Arabic. I didn’t answer the other”
Creative thinking is heating up. Good.
We’el know something is really happening when we start to get on the telephone with each other, abandon anonymity, start to meet en vivo, maybe at state or regional gatherings.
–>Some points for Paul Fisher RE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTIONS (cf: Article V of the present US Constitution and various website on US Constitution)
Only a super majority of Congress or state legislatures can call such a convention. How likely is this, especially now?
NO CC has even been called since 1787; (which assembled under the {then} Articles of Confederation, which were then dumped in-toto at the convention, and the main body of a new (our present) Constitution adopted and finally ratified in 1789.
No set or binding proceedure exists for limiting the subject matter of a convention (once it’s assembled), or for determining how CC delegates from the states would be chosen from within the states. –> Ergo: given present corruption of US politics, it’s entirely possible that rightwing delegates could domminate CC proceedings and even repeal the present Bill of Rights (Amendments 1-10), or worse.
Plenty of other dicey problems, too.
Plus a seeming Catch-22: If enough organized progressive political will existed in the country, to call a convention, wouldn’t a new Congress reflect that? In which case, the good amendments you propose could be enacted the by the alternate (and less risky) amendment processes that’re provided for elsewhere in the Constitution.
Have you studied this process, and thought thru the risks vs benefits, plus the Catch-22’s?
I’m with you in spirit - but this is Dicey…!
Some of the other suggestions here (RE don’t feed the beast) are much more direct, average citizens-oriented, and don’t risk so much for such an unknown legal outcome.
I have been trying to live off the grid, and living off the grid, for years. I think getting out of the system is the way to go, but not many are going to have the will or stomach for it. Not to mention the sacrifice.
I had a “middle class” work situation for a couple of years, and since I had not been a card carrying member up to that point, what struck me about the general condition was that it was untruthful on so many different kinds of levels - to the human experience - that I learned I couldn’t even bring myself to do it. When they hire teachers into the system for example they want you to be young because then you can’t form thoughts on your own based on experiences that you might have.
One ages and one’s own life is a protest and it’s success or failure is determined by the way events play themselves out.
Seems to me we are in a period that requires patience, even though we find the times truly alarming. Apparently the time is not quite right.
The internet has been a place where we are gathering in the (alternate reality) fields and telling anecdotes about our situation and realizing how many of us have the same shared experience, and that’s really good and healthy for us.
In the science fiction reality in which we live, these fields are as real as the camps on the sides of highways in the depression. Where we realized our commondreams and thought up acts of civil disobedience that eventually broke through and made changes.
There are momentum shifts. When it comes we will see it. If there ever comes a moment when fuel is difficult to obtain, I imagine quite a few of the peaceful car drivers and home owners out there will be out for blood. I’d stay out of their way.
alembic two,
I understand what you are saying regarding potential risks, however, I disagree with you on some of the variables.
For instance, I believe that in a normal political environment, Article V of the Constitution does indeed govern the process of conventions. However, in a political environment that has created a legitimate threat to the future integrity of the rule of Constitutional law, such as exists in this country right now, then I believe the provisions in the Declaration of Independence are quite clear:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness: that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, & to institute new government, laying it’s foundation on such principles, & organizing it’s powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety & happiness.”
The people’s election of new delegates, not existing legislators, is our right under the authority inferred in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence, as well as being enumerated in the signing statement by George Washington and William Jackson that appears after the signature portion of the Constitution. It reads the following:
“Resolved,
That the preceding Constitution be laid before the United States in Congress assembled, and that it is the opinion of this Convention, that it should afterwards be submitted to a Convention of Delegates, chosen in each State by the People thereof, under the recommendation of its Legislature, for their assent and ratification; and that each Convention assenting to and ratifying the same, should give notice thereof to the United States in Congress assembled.”
…be su