Huge numbers of Americans are disgusted with both the Republican and the Democratic parties right now, and are hungrily clamoring for a third alternative.
I know, I know - imagine that! What's not to like about one party that stands for greed, murder and destruction, and another that stands by for greed, murder and destruction?
Nevertheless, somehow things are not going so swimmingly in the world of American partisan politics. The arch-Republican in the White House has job approval ratings in the mid-20s and sinking. The former Republican Congress, equally regressive, was tossed out on their ears, losing control of both houses last year. Not to be outdone, the Democrats who gained control of Congress as the expression of an angry public demanding change have spent the last seven months responding to that mandate by doing ... well, virtually nothing. Now their standing in public opinion is slightly lower than Bush's.
So it comes as no surprise that tens of millions of Americans are fed up with both parties and anxious to find something else that they can not only vote for in good conscience, but can actually win. I, too, have shared that dream, have voted third party, and have even volunteered for one during a presidential election campaign. Remember Barry Commoner? Remember his candidacy for president as the leader of the Citizen's Party in 1980?
Yeah, well, I rest my case. Third party alternatives to hopelessly nihilistic Republicans, hopelessly equivocal Democrats, and the hopelessly self-serving lot of them make total sense except for one small problem. They can't win.
Not literally, of course. Technically, a third party could win. It's just that they don't, and, short of some dramatic changes in the future, that will continue to be the case - that is, they won't.
I don't dispute the circular determinism in a statement like that, which is no doubt the first response in the minds of those advocating an alternative to the two bankrupt political parties now running (and ruining) the country. It's quite correct to argue that continuing to believe that third parties can never win, and that a vote for one of them is therefore 'wasted', is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's absolutely true that this is the first impediment to the success of a third party in America, and one which by definition must be resolved before any such party can possibly succeed. But what is too often left out of the discussion are the additional and quite enormous obstructions which are waiting right behind this first one to block the rise of a new party to power in America.
To begin with, there is the country's ideological diversity. Compared to other democracies, ours has been historically pretty muted in this regard, though the range of popular ideological positions has increased somewhat in recent years, particularly as the Republican Party migrated from the center-right to the far right over the last few decades. But the comparative diversity of ideology in America relative to other countries is not really the point here.
What is the point is that the degree of diversity we do have is prohibitive to a successful third party arising in the United States. Unless one is contemplating the rise of multiple new parties to viability (and here we've transitioned from hope to fantasy, I'm afraid), the resulting difficulty posed by this ideological diversity is pretty plain to see. Lots of people, for example, are disgusted right now with George Bush and his co-conspirators in the mainstream of the Republican Party. Most loathe him from the left, thinking he is an arrogant fool who is destroying virtually all the political values they hold dear. But others loathe him with equal intensity from the right, largely for the crime of not destroying those values fast enough. Between the Harriet Miers nomination and the immigration bill debacle, no small fraction of the sixty-five percent of America currently reviling the president are cavemen even more regressive than Bush (which may seem unimaginable to progressives, but is quite literally the case). And in-between are those of the angry middle, who are seriously disgruntled, but are reluctant to lean very far in either ideological direction for a solution to their unhappiness.
What's the relevance of all this? Well, try to imagine a third party with a presidential candidate that could be viable. Some of the current crop of disaffected voters would be happy to vote for Ralph Nader to replace Bush, but many others would equate that to living under Mao. Likewise, many of those wishing for a third party, complete with its own presidential candidate, would be delighted if someone like David Duke carried their standard. If it is imaginable for progressives that it could ever get worse than Bush/Cheney, this is certainly it. Then, of course, in the center you have the Ross Perot sort of voter, who is dissatisfied enough with existing choices to entertain alternatives, but not something 'fringe' in an ideological sense.
Put all this together and you have a sufficient critical mass for precisely nothing. Except perhaps maintenance of the status quo. Thus, one huge reason that the rise of an alternative third party in the United States is highly unlikely is the insufficient support for a single specific alternative, even when there is substantial general support among the electorate for some other option beyond the two parties. The idea is great in theory, and even more compelling when a significant cohort of the public says they want a third party to vote for. But unless you see redneck-pickup-truck-with-a-gunrack-driving-god-fearing-Georgia-crackers voting for Angela Davis, and unless you see long-haired-herbal-tea-drinking-Berkeley-lesbian-housing-rights-militants voting for John Bolton, forget about it. Maybe someone like Mike Bloomberg would get a healthy number votes if he ran in 2008, but the former Republican would get few from the left, nor would the Jewish mayor of New York City get many from the right.
So, after the vast bulk of voters have cast their lot once again with either Republicans or Democrats, the remaining dissenters - even if they are large in number - will dissipate their potential impact across a panoply of choices. Some will vote Green Party. Some Libertarian. Some Reform Party. Some the other Reform Party. Some Constitution, Natural Law, Populist, Taxpayers, Socialist or whatever other party is on the ballot. Even if all of the votes for these alternative parties in aggregate amounted to a numerical challenge to the Democrats and Republicans (and they are currently very far from doing so), the individual share of each of these various representations of different ideologies would completely dissipate any substantial impact, and likely any impact at all, like the air going out of a balloon.
Those are two monumental obstacles to the potential success of a third party in this country, but we still haven't even discussed what amounts to the biggest - namely, our electoral system. The term refers to the mechanism by which votes at the ballot box are translated into parliamentary delegates (or members of Congress) in a representative democracy. That might sound painfully straightforward and obvious, but the methods available for doing this are anything but, sometimes producing (far more painfully) obscure and mathematically complicated schemes which voters sometimes don't begin to understand. Don't know whether you prefer the Borda count over Bucklin voting, the Condorcet method, Single Non‑Transferable Voting (affectionately known as SNTV), the Gallagher Index, the Sainte‑Laguë or d'Hondt methods (or perhaps you are all about the cloneproof Schwartz sequential dropping method, instead)? No worries, neither does just about anybody else. This confusion is not a good attribute for an electoral system to possess, but there are many other factors to consider as well, and polities are frequently experimenting trying to find the best system (none are perfect).
The question of electoral system choice may seem mundane in the extreme, but the consequences are enormous. Arguably, one of the factors which brought the Nazis to power was the flawed electoral system of the Weimar Republic, Germany's first (and, obviously, tragically failed) experiment with democracy. But even if a given system doesn't crash that badly, another of the consequences to the choice of electoral systems - and one which is highly relevant to the present discussion - is the number of viable political parties which they tend to produce.
All the multiple variations of electoral systems can be boiled down to essentially two types, plus a third and increasingly popular form, which is simply a hybrid of the first two. One of the two types is known as proportional representation (PR). Among other attributes, it can have a satisfying simplicity to it and, more importantly for our purposes, it tends to encourage the existence of multiple parties that are at least moderately prominent in a given system. That is because the basic principle, as the name implies, is that each party is awarded a number of legislators in parliament that is proportional to the vote it receives in a single polity-wide election. Therefore, even a small party which could only garner, say, six percent of the vote would nevertheless gain representation in the legislature. In fact, it would have six percent of the seats, which would be likely to mean, depending on the size of the body, more than thirty representatives (most lower houses of parliament - the ones with the most power - seem to be about 500-700 members in size). And, since there can be a certain (virtuous or vicious) cyclical quality to the growth or demise of political parties - such that having representation in parliament makes it easier to gain more of the same, and not having it makes it harder - this system is good news for small parties.
But there are also certain prominent downsides to PR, as well. First, progressives should remember that it wouldn't only be lefty parties benefitting from this system in America. Where PR produces Green parties in parliament, it also produces the National Front. Second, so many parties usually means the necessity of coalitions to form governments, and that often means instability - coalitions break apart, and governments fall in-between elections, sometimes frequently. Too much instability and enter the Nazis, stage right. And, on top of all this, even PR systems have a tendency to produce two major parties alternating in government (usually in coalition with one or more smaller ones), anyhow, which somewhat defeats the purpose if our goal is get a third party to govern, not that America is anywhere remotely near converting to PR, anyhow. No one is even talking about it.
The main alternative electoral system to PR doesn't tend to suffer from these maladies, but also doesn't typically produce many small parties in government. This is the district model, and the way it works is to divide the polity into geographical districts and hold simultaneous elections in each. There are many variations possible on how to identify a winner from those separate mini-elections, but in the United States we use a plurality criterion. Do you have one more vote than anyone else in your district (even if you have far less than a majority, as would likely be the case in a district with multiple candidates)? Congratulations. You have a plurality, and you're going to Congress.
It's easy to see why such a system is hard on third parties. Let's say there was a prominent third party in the United States - I'll use my buddies the Greens, since they were kind enough to name their party after me! - and they won perhaps twenty-five percent of the vote nationwide, in a Congressional election cycle. A very respectable showing, no? But, of course, there is no national election, per se - only a bunch of simultaneous district contests (435 for the House representatives, every two years). Nevertheless, for the sake of exposition, let's say that the Greens got 25 percent of the vote in every district. Let's also say that in half the districts the Democrats get 40 percent of the vote to the Republicans' 35 percent, and vice-versa in the other half. In a PR system, the Greens would be awarded 25 percent of the seats in the House for this showing. Under the district model, however, such as is practiced in the United States, their twenty-five percent of the votes translates into precisely zero seats in Congress (arguably disenfranchising one-fourth of the electorate).
(By the way, the presidential election works essentially the same way, and would even were we to eliminate the Electoral College. You can't readily split the presidency like you can a parliament, so only one person can claim the prize, leaving voters for all the other candidates holding the bag, even if these losing voters represent a majority in total - as was the case, for example, in 1992, when Clinton won the presidency with only 43 percent of the popular vote.)
What does all the foregoing discussion ultimately mean? The bottom line here is this: One, we're not likely to change electoral systems in America any time soon. Two, unless we do, it will continue to be enormously difficult for any third party to gain enough traction to achieve viability, let alone to govern. Three, even if we did opt for PR, there are serious downsides to that system as well (a hybrid seems to be the best alternative, in which half of the legislature is chosen using the district model, and the other half using PR - Germany, Italy and other democracies employ this method), not least of which would be the concurrent rise of some nasty gangs of parliamentary thugs on the rabid right who could make Cheney's little GOP horror show seem tame by comparison. And, Four, even though it would likely provide representation in Congress, PR would still probably not bring a third party to power, except possibly as a junior partner in some sort of coalition government. Such a party would chronically occupy the role of a small fry swimming among big sharks, though it might have some improved chance over decades' time to rise to greater prominence.
In short, for reasons involving ideological diversity, electoral mechanics and more, the third party path is not the solution to the present crisis of democracy in America, especially from the perspective of forwarding the progressive agenda.
If you're dubious about the above theoretical analysis, feel free to try on the empirical one instead - it's even more grim. Here are two statistics that more or less say it all. There are 535 members of Congress in America. Guess how many come from a third party. The answer is zero. Not a single one. Doesn't that suggest rather infertile ground for such a plant to take root? But if you're still not convinced, how about this, then: When was the last time the United States experienced the reshuffling of the party structure such that a new party rose to the level of sustained viability? The answer is about 160 years ago, with the birth of the Republican Party. That, in a country which has only had political parties for about 200 years. In other words, this country has had two primary parties vying for power for almost its entire existence, and the last time even the name of one of those changed (but not the number of them, which has essentially never changed) was 4/5's of our history ago. I, for one, would argue that the ground for our multiparty plant has gone from infertile to downright toxic.
But here's where the good news comes in. If the above description sounds like rather an inconceivable degree of stability for a political system spanning that many decades and myriad crises, that's because it is. And it is this observation that brings us closer to the true remedy for our problems. How could such a rigid two-party system - of the same two parties, no less - survive against all the powerful changes, strains and pressures of the last century and a half? And these are considerable. Such a laundry list would have to include, minimally, the Civil War, Reconstruction, industrialization, immigration, expansion, imperialism, civil rights movements for minorities, women and gays, the national rise to global prominence, the Cold War, about seven major hot wars and two impeached presidents, just to get started. Why the incredible stability of the party system, then? The answer is that the American political system doesn't tend to adopt new third parties, and it doesn't implode from the pressures of frustrated change, because what it does instead is to accommodate various political aspirations within the malleable shells of the existing parties.
A look at either one of them amply demonstrates the point. The Republican Party was born as essentially the political vehicle for the anti-slavery movement, when the existing parties failed to provide an outlet for that rising sentiment. Could today's regressive GOP amalgamation of robber-barons, religious troglodyte foot-soldiers and nearly outright racists possibly look any different from the party of Abe Lincoln? Indeed, the GOP of today would have been reactionary even in Lincoln's time. So what happened? How could the party of emancipation become the party of kleptocracy? What happened was that the robber-barons stole it and morphed it, growing increasingly clever over time as to how to employ nationalism, jingoism, imperialism, racism, sexism, external bogeymen, general fear and cultural backwardness in order to line up sufficient votes, augmenting those of the richest two percent of the country, necessary to form a viable party. The examples of this are as endless as they are depressing, running from red scares to race-baiting and back again. More contemporaneously, suffice it to say that not for nothing did Karl Rove arrange to place gay marriage initiatives on the ballot in eleven states for election day 2004. (My personal fantasy is to find every fool who voted for one of those but now hates Bush and shake them vigorously by the shoulders, yelling in their faces, "Are you happy now? Isn't it great that there won't be any gay marriages in our crumbling excuse for a country?")
Ahem. Uh, where was I? (Please stop me before I fantasize again.) Ah, yes - morphing parties. Similar to the GOP experience, it was not so long ago that the main component of the Democratic Party was the Solid South of white voters below the Mason-Dixon line. It was FDR who turned the party into a much broader coalition that came to include the working class, union members, Jews, Catholics, intellectuals, liberals, urban-dwellers, immigrant communities and more, as well as the white South. It was LBJ (fully knowingly, and with lots of help from the likes of Nixon, Reagan, Atwater, Rove, Bush I, Bush II and the rest) who alienated white racists, both North and South, by pursuing various civil rights agendas, principally concerning race.
In short, both parties look a lot different today than they once did, and that happened largely through the efforts of activists seeking to achieve precisely that end. And this, it seems to me, remains the only viable solution for the progressive community today - not a continuing hopeless quest for a prominent third party that has a very low probability of materializing, especially given the institutional and ideological obstacles described above.
What progressives need to do today is what regressives began doing forty years ago. We need to seize the party closest to our politics and take control of it, marginalizing DLC types like Clinton or Lieberman into irrelevance, just like the old Gerry Ford centrist wing of the Republican Party was shoved aside by the radical right. We must become the parasites that infect the host until we eventually take it over completely.
It would be lovely if there was an alternative, but to my mind the above concepts and historical precedent amply demonstrate the improbability of a third party rising to power. Moreover, even if one did eventually arise, in the meantime we continue to risk producing the Nader 2000 effect - such that following our best instincts splits the left-of-regressive vote and succeeds only in empowering the worst alternatives. (For example, imagine a race in 2008 between Clinton and Giuliani, with Gore running as the nominee of the Green Party. Clinton and Gore would collectively receive far more votes than would Giuliani, but Giuliani would be the next president, even without the Electoral College effect.)
And let's not kid ourselves, way too many Americans presently worry if the Democratic Party is too liberal to govern, not whether it can become progressive enough. A large part of that has to do with the complete collapse over the last decades of the progressive message and especially the Party, in the arena of public debate. The American public is going to have to be deprogrammed and reprogrammed after decades of regressive Moonyism (including by the Moonies themselves). That is a separate issue, albeit one which is much better addressed by an ideology that has the benefit of a solid institutional platform from which to operate. But the point is that a third party to the left of the Democrats would not at present be anything like an easy sell. Far easier to win by turning one of the only two alternatives available to voters into a progressive party (especially when the other one has become reprehensible in the extreme).
All of which leaves two questions. First, can the Democratic Party serve that function, or is it hopelessly lost, a permanent captive to its corporate masters? I know of no evidence whatsoever that Paul Wellstone or Bernie Sanders (an independent who caucuses with the Democrats and an avowed socialist, for chrissakes) have been ostracized by party elites or subjected to attempts made either to force a change to their politics or to drum them out of the party. Ditto Barney Frank, Dennis Kucinich, Maxine Waters, John Conyers (or, should I say, the Congressman formerly known as John Conyers), or Henry Waxman. Howard Dean was something of a threat to the status quo party hacks in 2004, it's true, but my guess is that that was mostly because it wasn't yet hip at that time to be anti-war, and they feared that a Dean candidacy would take down the whole party with it (which, no doubt, must be why they brought in a real fighter like John Kerry to go up against Rove and the GOP). Anyhow, nowadays Dean is chairing the damn thing, so their resistance to him can't have been that intense.
All of which suggests to me that the party is ours for the taking if we want it. Given enough Wellstones, we can own this thing and shape it into a force for true progressive change. And if you still require additional evidence that it can be done, just remember that it has been done - twice already (or even three times if we count some of Woodrow Wilson's foreign policy ideas). Both the New Deal in the Thirties and then the Great Society in the Sixties were periods of substantial and meaningful progressive flowering in American government, even if they weren't ultimately everything we might have wanted them to become (and let's not forget that we are dealing here with the most politically backwards populace amongst all the Western democracies). Moreover, and again following on those models, the ascension of a relatively progressive president such as perhaps Al Gore could help expedite this process from the top down.
But then comes the second question, could a progressive Democratic Party win? Again, it seems to me that both history, contemporary conditions and loads of polling data provide a pretty compelling affirmative answer. That it has happened twice suggests that it is certainly possible. That polling data consistently demonstrate the public tending to favor progressive positions on almost every issue put before them, despite decades of unanswered regressive brainwashing, is further argument that this is possible. Finally, Americans are growing increasingly anxious today as their prosperity, their empire, and their sense of security are diminishing right before their very eyes. These conditions are likely to grow more, not less, acute, particularly as Baby Boomers transition from being net contributors to the welfare state system back to being net recipients (never underestimate the depth or the power of Boomer selfishness!).
Such insecurity-inducing scenarios radicalize politics, if that's not too strong a term, pushing the electorate either to the right or the left. One of those alternatives has just recently been tried. Its chief exemplar now has Watergate-level job approval ratings, which will only get considerably worse in the ensuing months. It is true that the public could theoretically be persuaded to turn further still to the right, but you don't much hear those voices out there clamoring for that direction amongst the political class. Even the few remaining droolers like Bill Kristol who advocate for something idiotic like bringing Bushism to Iran now that it has demonstrated its wonderful virtues in Iraq and Afghanistan are increasingly being sneered at like the laughable but still dangerous morons they are. The right-wing experiment in American politics is a complete and utter failure, of course, but more importantly it is increasingly recognized as such. It has totally come a cropper in terms of public opinion. This is 1932 all over again. No more Hoover, no more Bush. The country began its retreat from this horror show in 2006, and would have started even earlier had not John Kerry been such an abysmal presidential candidate. It is now turning decisively to an alternative somewhere to the left of the current GOP, as it more or less must. The only question (further national security 'emergencies' aside, of course), is what will be there for it to turn to, and how far down that path we go from here.
Personally, I don't give a damn about the Democratic Party (which for decades has almost never failed to disappoint anyone possessing any progressive expectations for it), or any other party. In fact, I share many of the concerns about the general pernicious effects of partisanship that the Founders held - though I also recognize that, as a practical matter, it's pretty hard to envision doing national politics in a polity of 300 million people (and politically lazy ones, at that) without the organizing benefits and programmatic shorthand that parties bring to the table. While I don't care about parties, what I do care about are policies. Do we have healthcare, or not? Do we rescue people after a hurricane and flood devastate their city, or not? Do we act like an predatory empire, or not? If the Democrats can deliver the right policies, then fine. If we need the Greens to do the job instead, hey, that's groovy too. If we have to import SWAPO from southern Africa to get it done, then whatever. Heck, I'd even vote Republican (gulp) if they somehow miraculously managed to stumble into some good politics (though that's probably about as likely as Dick Cheney volunteering to become a soldier). I could care less about the label and the organization, as long as it delivers progressive policies for the country.
As a practical matter, though, a third party - let alone a viable leftist third party - is extremely unlikely to develop for all the theoretical and historical reasons outlined above. Our mission, therefore, should be to capture the Democratic Party and lead it toward a series of increasingly progressive (and already publicly popular) legislative accomplishments, starting with ending the war and providing universal national healthcare coverage. It won't be that hard to do, and we can thank the Dark Side in part for creating the best conditions in half a century for this opportunity (just the same, though, I think I'll pass on sending a nice note of gratitude to Mr. Rove). After all, it's not exactly like avoiding unnecessary wars, providing healthcare and quality education for all, pursuing economic justice, or saving our little planetary spaceship from the threat of global warming are such radical ideas that would be hard to sell.
I share the sentiment of many in the progressive community that the Democratic Party is, with a few notable exceptions, a cesspool of ambitious sell-outs, ready to mortgage any policy position or principle in service to their own petty personal gratifications. It would be wonderful, for that reason, if we could just nuke the thing and move on to something else. Wonderful, but not possible.
Fortunately, there is another alternative. I say we hijack it instead.
David Michael Green is a professor of political science at Hofstra University in New York. He is delighted to receive readers' reactions to his articles (mailto:dmg@regressiveantidote.net), but regrets that time constraints do not always allow him to respond. More of his work can be found at his website, www.regressiveantidote.net.
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Show AllWe really need to move into Planetary view of our current predicaments, if we are to grasp the complexity of unfolding events. That is, a perspective which accounts for the radical interdependence of (especially, living) systems. It is no longer a luxury to peer through the lens of General Systems Theory - (such as the “Whole-Systems Theory†articulated by Ken Wilber, Jose Arguelles, Edgar Morin, Lynn Margulis, and Elisabet Sartouris.
Many domains within the scientific community are (in some cases slowly; in others, quickly) coming to the realization that the perspective offered by GST is a necessity if they are to answer today’s pressing questions. And, they see that this new dimension involves changes that are paradigmatic in nature. And, so it must be in political science as well. It will be profoundly necessary to attempt to understand the roots, causes, and consequences of the apparent chaos unique to our time in world history.
If we truly wish to have an impact, progressives need to be Ahead of the (Learning) Curve. Much of the U.S. population is already yearning for “something new that will actually work.†I believe that deep down, whether consciously or not, a great many of us sense the precarious nature of today’s world……that uneasy, queasy feeling of looking over a precipice – and not being at all confident that the ground on which we are standing won’t give way.
It certainly seems possible to successfully triangulate issues – to the chagrin of dyed-in-the-wool conservatives of the neo - â€con†variety. But this would presuppose that progressives have a deeper, more encompassing vision of current events than they now do.
From a General Systems perspective it is not so difficult to come to tentative conclusions re- what the near future will hold. But like the many scientists who are clinging to the security of their old assumptions and views, the question for progressives is whether we are ready and willing to endure the discomfort of expanding our worldview, for example around the issue of “spirituality.†The whole subject begs for deeper inquiry and radical renovation!
But if you leave “God†– (remember it’s only the word “Dog†spelled backwards, so don’t get hung up on it!) to our brethren who are Revulsickens, progressive progress will (probably sooner rather than later) go down the tubes.
I believe that we, each of us, really need to play catch up - and fast. Old perspectives do die hard when it comes to the day to day life we are actually living. But looking historically, it’s not THAT hard to do:….our ancestors have done it many, many times. Didn’t they (most of them) eventually come to accept that the world is round, and gradually give up older notions, no matter how sacred?
Can’t we give a little? Move beyond and let go of, say, one “in the box,†unexamined, thought-habit each day. I'm guessing that there be ‘lot of out-of-the- box happenings heading our way.
Politically speaking, it makes sense to be at least a little prepared for the unprecedented.
We Can teach an old dogs new tricks, right?
And, anyways, we’re not THAT old - (yet)!
Something to seriously consider:
Just about every comment that has been written here (all 222 of them!) will essentially be irrelevant, null and void, if one specific event occurs.
I would like to urge anyone interested to read the entire column by Harvey Wasserman and Bob Fitrakis. published today right here on CommonDreams and titled:
"Will Bush Cancel The 2008 Election?"
To give us a sense of what he has to say, I've taken the liberty to paste a few bits below.
"It is time to think about the 'unthinkable.'
"The Bush Administration has both the inclination and the power to cancel the 2008 election.The GOP strategy for another electoral theft in 2008 has taken clear shape, though we must assume there is much more we don’t know.
"But we must also assume that if it appears to Team Bush/Cheney/Rove that the GOP will lose the 2008 election anyway (as it lost in Ohio 2006) we cannot ignore the possibility that they would simply cancel the election. Those who think this crew will quietly walk away from power are simply not paying attention.
"The real question is not how or when they might do it. It’s how, realistically, we can stop them.In Florida 2000, Team Bush had a game plan involving a handful of tactics.
"With Jeb Bush in the governor’s mansion, the GOP used a combination of disenfranchisement, intimidation, faulty ballots, electronic voting fraud, a rigged vote count and an aborted recount, courtesy of the US Supreme Court.
"A compliant Democrat (Al Gore) allowed the coup to be completed.
"In Ohio 2004, the arsenal of dirty tricks exploded. Based in Columbus, we have documented more than a hundred different tactics used to steal the 20 electoral votes that gave Bush a second term. More are still surfacing. As a result of the King-Lincoln-Bronzeville federal lawsuit (in which we are plaintiff and attorney) we have now been informed that 56 of the 88 counties in Ohio violated federal law by destroying election records, thus preventing a definitive historical recount.
"As in 2000, a compliant Democrat (John Kerry) allowed the coup to proceed.
"For 2008 we expect the list of vote theft maneuvers to escalate yet again. We are already witnessing a coordinated nationwide drive to destroy voter registration organizations and to disenfranchise millions of minority, poor and young voters.This carefully choreographed campaign is complemented by the widespread use of electronic voting machines.
"As reported by the Government Accountability Office, Princeton University, the Brennan Center, the Carter-Baker Commission, US Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) and others, these machines can be easily used to flip an election. They were integral to stealing both the 2000 and 2004 elections.
"Efforts to make their source codes transparent, or to require a usable paper trail on a federal level, have thus far failed. A discriminatory Voter ID requirement may also serve as the gateway to a national identification card. Overall, the GOP will have at its command even more weapons of election theft in 2008 than it did in Ohio 2004, which jumped exponentially from Florida 2000. The Rovian GOP is nothing if not tightly organized to do this with ruthless efficiency.
"Expect everything that was used these past two presidential elections to surface again in 2008 in far more states, with far more efficiency, and many new dirty tricks added in.
"But in Ohio 2006, the GOP learned a hard lesson. Its candidate for governor was J. Kenneth Blackwell. The Secretary of State was the essential on-the-ground operative in the theft of Ohio 2004.When he announced for governor, many Ohioans joked that 'Ken Blackwell will never lose an election where he counts the votes.'But lose he did….along with the GOP candidates for Secretary of State, Attorney-General and US Senate.By our calculations, despite massive grassroots scrutiny, the Republicans stole in excess of 6% of the Ohio vote in 2006. But they still lost.Why?
"Because they were so massively unpopular that even a 6% bump couldn’t save them. Outgoing Governor Bob Taft, who pled guilty to four misdemeanors while in office, left town with a 7% approval rating (that’s not a typo). Blackwell entered the last week of the campaign down 30% in some polls.So while the GOP still had control of the electoral machinery here in 2006, the public tide against them was simply too great to hold back, even through the advanced art and science of modern Rovian election theft.
"In traditional electoral terms, that may also be the case in 2008. Should things proceed as they are now, it’s hard to imagine any Republican candidate going into the election within striking distance. The potential variations are many, but the graffiti on the wall is clear.
"What’s also clear is that this administration has a deep, profound and uncompromised contempt for democracy, for the rule of law, and for the US Constitution. When George W. Bush went on the record (twice) as saying he has nothing against dictatorship, as long as he can be dictator, it was a clear and present policy statement.
"Who really believes this crew will walk quietly away from power?
"They have the motivation, the money and the method for doing away with the electoral process altogether. So why wouldn’t they? The groundwork for dismissal of both the legislative and judicial branch has been carefully laid. The litany is well-known, but worth a very partial listing:
"...The current Attorney-General, Alberto Gonzales, has not backed away from his announcement to Congress that the Constitution does not guarantee habeas corpus. The administration continues to act on the assumption that it can arrest anyone at any time and hold them without notification or trial for as long as it wants. The establishment of the Homeland Security Agency has given it additional hardware to decimate the basic human rights of our citizenry.
"Under the guise of dealing with the “immigration problem,†large concentration camps are under construction around the US....
"All this will be relevant should Team Bush envision a defeat in the 2008 election and decide to call it off. It’s well established that Richard Nixon—mentor to Karl Rove and Dick Cheney—commissioned the Huston Plan, which detailed how to cancel the 1972 election.
"Today we must ask: who would stop this administration from taking dictatorial power in the instance of a “national emergency†such as a terror attack at a nuclear power plant or something similar?"
Do these words send chills up your spine or give you a feeling of nausea? They should. These are things I'd rather not think about.
But to quote the late great psychoanalyist Elvin Semrad: "It is a necessary condition of human health...to be able to think what has to be thought."
baska: I must say that it is truly refreshing to see a commenter openly admit that they have changed their views somewhat as a result of reading another's views. That is what this whole experiment is about. I myself feel as though I am constantly altering my vision of this country and the world at large, often as a result of reading comment sections on sites like CD.
Thanks for having an open mind. This is truly one of the best, most thought-provoking threads I have ever seen.
"If there is an organization around which we can rally that is already in place, please post it."
Well the most accessible ones with the most depth of penetration, national with state and local chapters, are called "Democrats" and "Republicans". They are pretty much everywhere. They both lack sufficient participation from progressive-minded people at the local level. Well, not everywhere, there are pockets of progressivity here and there but for the most part it's a rubber stamp operation.
I would like all the smart and thoughtful people who have contributed their accumulated wisdom to this article's commentaries, to get together and form an organization, to which the rest of us would join.
I hope you know who you are (smart and thoughtful people).
There is much more agreement than disagreement amongst you. And central to everyone's ideas is the idea of electoral reform through constitutional reform. You may disagree on how to get there.
If there is an organization around which we can rally that is already in place, please post it.
It's a HUGE mistake, to the point of surrendering our ability to self-govern, to view "the" Democratic Party as one entity, one organization.
There is a local party waiting for you and if you're not doing anything to shift or set the terms of the debate within that local party, what makes you think you'll do so for a yet-to-be-invented party?
It's still going to take eleventy-billion dollars to win national office.
Better get your "we need a fourth party" mantra ready just in case you get your wish.....
RE: DEMOCRATS, THIRD PARTY, OR BOTH - KEY QUESTION ON COMMONDREAMS
207 posts and counting - as I said at the start of this thread, this is a key question for readers of this site.
Short of a space for the question set aside by the editors - which I think would be good - I hope the thread continues as a point of reference for working out this crucial question as events continue to unfold.
RE: OFF-TOPIC...NOT OFF-TOPIC: COMPASSION FOR SUFFERERS
aymon July 30th, 2007 7:39 am
"thamks to everyone (except Alkalye)"
Look, I was annoyed at first by that post too - but it took only a sec to realize the guy/gal was distraught to the point of derangement, extremely isolated, and in pain. I didn't respond...but, jeez, if ever there was someone off their meds, it was him/her...Hope they didn't hurt themself...
RE: ARGUMENT BY ANALOGY...
susan parker July 29th, 2007 2:12 pm
Coopting an existing organization like a parasite...can result in the death of the 'host.'....
"this sounds to me rather like signing up to work 'crew' on an oceanliner in the hope of affecting the ship's course.
It's 'like' this, it's 'like' that - argument by analogy, unless supported by greater fact/argument, does not go beyond polemic and pre-existing point of view. For example, I am tempted to respond: 'No, it is not like signing up as crew on an oceanliner, it is like the crew of Potempkin taking over the battleship.'
The truth probably lies somewhere between the despairing first and the hopeful second...but neither qualifies as an argument.
Waste of time. I'll admit I didn't even read this column, aside from the first few sentences. Why bother?
I used to be a Republican. Last fall I voted Democrat because of Bush. I want my vote back.
"Lesser of two evils" is horsesh*t.
thamks to everyone (except Alkalye) who wrote on this thread and to DMG, writer of wonderful progressive articles at CD, who bithed this thread.
My personal thanks to Ken and Earthian for your positive feedback on my post.
Thanks to abbywod and CRCox for a spirited defence of all of us who honour the fundamental human right to articulate thoughtful positions for discussion and comment by others who are also thougghtful and articulate.
PowerofLove, Siouxrose and I used to post some "out of the box" stuff earlier, but it seemed to many that we were not only "out of the box" but "out of our mind". so it is risky here to be too much "out of the box". well, our intuition is vividly captured by Shakespeare:
"There are more things between Heaven and Earth, horatio, then what your philosiophy speaks of"
Nevertheless, your take on Chaos theory laying surprises on "in the box" expectations is sound and that is exactly what is happening to Bushco in Iraq.
A suggestion (warning -- this may require some work!): If someone could go through all the posts here and cull out actual, implementable strategy from the posts as to how to get to our goal of a progressive force capable of effecting change, whether it be by "highjacking", "third party" or a combination of methods and modalities, that would be very useful to progressive candidates such as Cindy, Medea, Rev, Yearwood,Kucinich, Gravel, Nader (whether he runs, advises, or simply articulates it to the Dem masses), Barbara Boxer and others, the in a sense we would have planted the seeds.
The blue in my name is not anything special at the moment, and I don't know how to get rid of it. Kem Patrick figures it is digital IED that I've devised. Any ideas?
Peace
Aymon
I believe it behooves us to carefully study the (exponentially increasing) material that speaks to the issue of “paradigm change.†While the phrase has at times been used in a faddish way, when utilized in a serious fashion the term can serve as a conceptual lens, through which we can gain a fresh focus on the unfolding of present day events - and see them with new eyes.
My sense is that we radically underestimate the intensity and discontinuity of the period of change through which we are now passing. If you will, I worry that we progressives, as a whole, have not gotten our minds far enough “out of the box†of business-as-usual thinking.
I’m guessing that there are many “outrageous and unbelievable†things that will be disclosed in the coming years. From this point of view our past cannot possibly predict our future.
Politically, this means, first and foremost, using multiple frames to expand our notions of what this period of time is all about….and, of what is possible. (Fit new paradigm thinking here).
When it began to dawn in the western world that in fact the Earth circled the Sun and not the other way around (the common sense assumption for centuries) -----
----- Or that science, rather than blind faith in church doctrine just made a hell of alot more sense ----- whole foundational categories of thought needed to be relinquished.
While I would agree that organizationally we must be prepared for the 2008 election (and have little time to lose), it is also of critical importance that we begin to renovate our thinking. A few people here have mentioned “either/or†vs. “both/and†thought processes. This shift is key.
The whole thing is going to require a huge "Get over yourself" (and your comfy old thought-forms) attitude on each of our parts.
For example: the dusty old either/or of 'secular vs. religious.' Dichotomizing these, using the same old conceptual frames, simply is not going to cut it. The central issue here is that a massive spiritual awakening is already underway among humanity. However, the multiple meanings of such a proposition will also require much “unpacking.â€
For a peek, see the work of Jean Gebser, Edgar Morin, Joanna Macy or Duane Elgin.
Or, for an even wilder roller coaster ride, check out www.disclosureproject.org.
And have fun!
DMG,
Look what you've gone and done. Opened up a Pandora’s box, you have. Well Done!!
Naturally, what I write next will be null and void if humanity takes the “Armageddon Bypass.†That is, if humanity avails itself of the glorious opportunity immediately before us ---- to indulge in a blaze of self-destruction. “We have the technology.†Either that, and/or botching the coming environmental crises so badly that we’re thrown back into a feudal (futile?), or even more primitive existence, eking out our daily bread.
I truly honor the folks who are ready, willing, and able to take a “brass tacks†approach to the questions posed by David’s column. We all have gifts, and goddess knows, this kind of careful, reality-based thinking, strategizing, planning, and organizing at the electoral and party level is sorely needed. (Recent democrats being famous for never encountering a chance at being elected that they couldn’t screw up).
I come at this from a somewhat different angle. To this end I would like to offer a few thoughts from the realm of group development and chaos theory.
It is now pretty much accepted that many human groups are characterized by periods of relative calm punctuated by intervals of chaotic activity. As Bud McClure has said: “ This periodicity is essential for growth and reorganization, for without undergoing periodic upheaval, groups can not evolve.â€
We’re talking here about non-incremental, discontinuous change, also known as “second-order change.†Disorder always precedes metamorphosis, and its outcomes can not, with any kind of certainly, be predicted from previous conditions.
In my opinion anyone attempting to play an effective leadership role would need to understand, to some degree, how chaos theory can be applied to the maturation and healthy development of groups, particularly because attempts to exert one-way control or to limit second-order change usually lead to regressive and potentially dangerous solutions.
Halle is exactly right: how are we to evaluate Prof. Green's proposal if he won't tell us HOW he proposes to hijack the Democratic party? It's not as simple as it sounds. We would have the DNC, DLC and other metaparty organizations to deal with. On the other hand, it's too late to try to get a third party candidate into the debates, and probably will soon be too late to get a candidate on the ballot in the early states. It may already be too late. But this much I know for sure: I no longer trust EITHER the Democratic or Republican parties, and I certainly don't trust the Bush regime. What now? A Boston tea party?
TRACTOR GUY: Elegant argument (and points), also kudos to A QUIET MAN. Good postings!
There's so much here that when I go back to read it, I find I missed stuff.
Aymon has a great idea in his posting of July 30, 7:39 am. If someone has the time, please review his suggestion and follow through. (Alas, I own a struggling business and cannot do this myself.)
Thanks for all the wonderful contributions. I agree with baska on the importance of this topic to we CD readers who wish to change the disastrous course of our country.
lporter July 30th, 2007 6:24 pm
"You are simply no use to us anymore, and we will not support you. We cannot trust you. You are more concerned about your party than you are about impact, and you can’t stand the heat from the Democrats."
As I mentioned previously, Rich Whitney's campaign for Governor of Illinois got us more than 10% of the vote in 2006, and we can get our candidates on the ballot until 2010 because of that. The Greens had to collect 25,000 valid signatures in 90 days to get Whitney and our other statewide candidates on the ballot, and to get 5% of the vote to keep the ballot line.
We collected 39,000 signatures. The Democrats made frivolous challenges to our petitions, and spent $800,000 of taxpayer money in the process. In the end, we had more than 27,000 valid signatures!
The Democratic Governor backed out of debates so that he wouldn't have to face Whitney. In the closing days of the campaign, the REPUBLICAN was telling people not to vote for Whitney because he was a spoiler. That campaign made me proud to be a Green.
BTW, guess who got nearly 10% of the vote in the Maine Governor's race last year? Pat LaMarche, who was David Cobb's running mate in 2004. She kept our ballot line in Maine, and could have been in Perot territory if Independent candidate Barbara Merrill wasn't running.
The Greens are the only national party in the country with a progressive platform. As much as I like Nader, he is only one person, and he can't build an enduring electoral opposition to the Democrats and Republicans without a party.
lporter July 29th, 2007 6:00 pm
"In 2004 I watched the Greens refuse to support Nader, because they couldn’t stand the disapproval of their liberal Democrat friends, and make themselves forever irrelevant."
Many Greens decided to not support Nader because he was not seeking our nomination like he did in 2000, but only wanted our endorsement. This was important to us.
Last year, the Greens ran the strongest statewide campaigns that we ever have. Rich Whitney got 10% of the vote in the Illinois Governor's race; our Presidential candidate will be on the ballot in 2008 because of his efforts. We are starting off with 20 ballot lines, and will get on the ballot in most states next year.
"What I would prefer to do is abandon party politics and run candidates as independents in the general election."
I agree with you about Perot's influence on the major parties, especially in making the balanced budget a top priority. Running as an independent has its advantages in some cases, but an independent Presidential bid is very difficult for non-billionaires. It's considerably harder to get on the ballot as an independent than as a party in California, Texas, and Florida- three of the biggest four states in the country.
Whatever it’s faults, the one thing Democrats have going for them is they have refused to be contaminated with the blight of man-made organized religion.
If this is true, the Democrats certainly aren't proud of or advertising it. In fact, personally I don't think this is that true of the Democrats: it's more that more of the people that vote for them are secular (overwhelmingly so) because:
1) We have nowhere else to go-unless, of course, we have a third party to represent us.
2) The religious voters that the Democrats would like to get to support them through 'centrist' mania are already more often than not convinced that the Democrats are basically Satan's cousins-not that this really changes the Democrats' willingness as a party to try and go after them.
As an example, I live in California and am allegedly represented by Dianne Feinstein. When Newdow first brought suit here (not that far away from where I live, actually...) her response in the Senate wasn't to support him, although risky. It wasn't even a carefully neutral statement that as a citizen of the US, he was exercising his Constitutional rights just like anyone else. This would have been hardly heroic, but at least understandable..
No, instead, she stood up there and said that she was ashamed that Michael Newdow came from her state. That not only did she disagree with him, but that the concept of an atheist standing up for themselves was a horrid, embarassing thing. The Democrats are no friends to the secular as much as they are forced to deal with it-and if they didn't think that they had to pay lip service along those lines, they wouldn't even grant this much.
I do agree with you that religion doesn't belong in politics-but I do think that the Democrats are ethically bankrupt after years of watching them treat those values that are secular as something to be cheaply traded away in favor of attempting to win one more election, or out of fear of what the Republicans will say about them.
Lisa wrote:
"You may be able to cut loose the facism from the Democratic Party, but you’ll never get rid of the selfish, spriritually bereft portion of the party, because it is not the fringe but is actually the core."
Depending on who's viewpoint? Whenever someone tries to tie 'spirituality' with a political party, I cringe and shudder. Look what mixing religious beliefs with politics has done in places like the middle east, let alone the Republican party who dangerously has embraced as it's core those who would force us into a theocracy. An evangelical Christian theocracy.
Secularism is the only way for everyone of all faiths to live peacefully together with mutal respect, and all treated equally under the law. It is not Democrats who are kissing the asses of the likes of Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et al. That Democrats support a more secular society with a strict separation of church and state is a major plus. This way good little liberal Christians and good little evangelicals can live together without one group burning the other at the stake - which is pretty much what always happens when people start wanting to bring their ideas of spirituality to a political party.
To claim that all those who support abortion are spiritually bereft is an opinion. Not a very enlightened one, but only an opinion. You're welcome to it of course. I suppose gay folks wanting to be treated equally are also selfish and spiritually bereft? Not to mention feminists who refuse to succumb to Christian patriarchy.
Whatever it's faults, the one thing Democrats have going for them is they have refused to be contaminated with the blight of man-made organized religion. That doesn't mean they don't have personal religious beliefs, but it does mean they are sensible enough to learn from history the dangers of mixing those beliefs with religion... it means they uderstand Secularism is a god-inspired gift to save mankind from his human (and utterly fallible) followers...
JMO..
I've tried three leftist third parties in my life -- Peace and Freedom, Citizens and Greens -- saw them all fail, and am burned out on the concept. In 2004 I watched the Greens refuse to support Nader, because they couldn't stand the disapproval of their liberal Democrat friends, and make themselves forever irrelevant. Third parties seem to be taken over by little groups of people who only talk to each other and have no sense of reality, of how to have an impact on American politics. Impact is what it's all about, not "building the party," which the Greens, in any case, failed to do.
No, a third party probably will never win an election, except possibly in very local races, nor do they seem to have much impact on what happens after the election. Neither does working within the Democratic party, which is a con game. What I would prefer to do is abandon party politics and run candidates as independents in the general election.
Which is essentially what Ross Perot did in 1992, winding up with 19 percent of the popular vote. He probably would have done better if he hadn't dropped out of the race, then dropped back in, making himself look erratic. (Wikepedia) The main issue he ran on was the skyrocketing national debt. The vote he got forced both major parties to take that issue seriously for some years, and the Clinton administration to do something about it. We could use this as a model.
Lynn Porter
BeingFrankWithBarney wrote:
What professor Green appears to be advocating is a more direct route to doing exactly the same things that many third parties want to achieve. While third party activism is a viable political strategy, it is demonstrably not a viable electoral strategy. It seems to me that far too many people conflate the two, serving only to decrease their ability to make much-needed changes
The problem is that this direct route isn't really direct at all. What it actually entails is trying to 'take back' an organization with limited obligations to follow its own internal rules and furthermore, is going to be hostile at a lot of different levels to the effort. Even if this initial effort is successful (and so far, it really hasn't been), its own internal rules would then need to be changed in order to eliminate corporatist influence. Finally, after this is done, this organization would then be expected to honestly take on the problems with disenfranchisement, the antiquated Constitution Red Harvest mentioned earlier, and then attack these problems in an honest and forthright manner as opposed to sabotaging efforts at every step so as to claim that the status quo is utterly immutable.
I think this adds several extra steps and a lot of extra effort to an already difficult process. Instead of trying to change the minds of people whose entire livelihoods (and in some cases, egos) are completely dependent on doing absolutely nothing or abetting the Republican/fascists, they should be bypassed instead.
I think the author and posters who take the position that third party candidates will never directly win elections in significant numbers are probably right. But I also think the entrenched Democratic leadership would respond to an influx of progressive activists by first trying to exploit, twist and usurp this source of energy for their own ends, and where that fails they would work to distract, dispirit, or pacify them, and after that comes ignoring them and taking them for granted, and then marginalizing, ridiculing, and sabotaging those who would like to take the party in a different direction. Fortunately, party influence is not solely a function of winning majorities. It isn't even solely about running candidates. A third party could serve as a base for like-minded progressives to get together, stake out their positions, and develop strategy--without having to withstand continuous withering assaults from an entrenched oppositional leadership which has stacked the procedural deck in its favor. With unions on the ropes and liberal churches scattered and disinclined to meddle in politics, some place is needed for organizing opposition on the left to counter the inherent power advantage of those disciplined, undemocratic, hierarchical bodies (corporations, military, regressivist churches) which have been able to push US politics so far right. Such an organization could sponsor information and awareness campaigns to influence public opinion and advance specific reforms (IRV and clean elections, for example) and could be a focal point of support for the many progressives who don't have the time, energy, resources, or demographic basics needed to scramble for positions within the Democratic party, so they can then go on to fight the leadership from within. A lot more people can simply write a check to a like-minded party, and would probably be more inclined do so if they felt they were supporting one which would actually represent, serve and advance their values, rather than one which will take their money and use it against them. And I don't see any contradiction between building up a third party, and strategically supporting targeted policies or candidates within the Dem. party. I do, however, see advantages to staking out a politically distinct piece of real estate, to make it clear to Democrats that this is a block of voters which can either be helpful allies or damaging enemies, but which cannot be ignored and taken for granted. So why operate as a party and not some advocacy or watchdog group? Because the ability to field candidates which can punish Democrats is the stick needed to be taken seriously. Even if those candidates never win, they can still change the outcomes.
And I while I do think hijacking, or taking back, the Democratic party at some point would be a great thing to do, such a move would undoubtedly require considerable outside organizing and planning 1) to coordinate the power of progressives into a united block so that their efforts aren't individually dissipated and 2) to have a functioning leadership body ready to take the helm, and I see no reason a third party could not serve as an excellent base for such an effort. (And in a best-case scenario, perhaps an alienated DLC would then take their marbles across the aisle, and coordinate with Lieberman-style Republicans to try to run the show over there--which might at least give the Republican centrists a fighting chance against the fascist/zealots of the far right.)
I just did a Google search on "fuck the government" and got 32,500 hits. I'm sure that proves something or other.
Coopting an existing organization like a parasite, which I think is what is being advised here, often has unintended consequences and can result in the death of the "host." ... and that's if the effort is successful.
Otherwise, this sounds to me rather like signing up to work "crew" on an oceanliner in the hope of affecting the ship's course.
At worst, this sounds rather like some sort of "Clean For Gene" do-over.
Most organizations -- large and small -- in my experience -- are cliquish and resist the newbies who attempt to change their course, regardless how brilliant, innovative, yada yada their ideas.
I have voted "third party" many times -- never to "spoil", always to "send a message" -- and, yes, I have held my nose several times to vote for the annointed democratic candidate as the "lesser of two evils" though as I get older I find myself less and less willing to do so. I no longer recognize "my" party, and I hardly recognized "my" country..
After seeing the Democratic Party's lame defense of Florida voting rights in 2000 and it's don't-ask-don't-tell reaction to Ohio in 2004, joining up as "crew" to attempt to redirect this behemoth seems ... what? absurd?
The whole world is praying to the Democratic party to deliver us from evil in 2008 ... from what I've seen, I'm not terribly hopeful.
I've been advocating a rejection the either/or thinking that results in conclusions advocating one side of such false dichotomies such as choosing between third-party strategies and a hijacking of the Democratic Party strategy. The article by DMG is based on that kind of either/or thinking as the title presupposes. Forget one, do the other. But in the comments I'm seeing more and more inclusive both/and thinking, where Baska--July 28th, 2007 3:40 pm-- mentions a "multi-front struggle" strategy. Red Harvest suggested that above with many interesting proposed innovations. And a more-recent, perfect example of the kind of inclusive synthesis of strategies and tactics is in the post by Aymon--July 28, 2007 7:06 p.m. Aymon's post includes what Kucinich and other Democrats need to do (and what we need to urge them to do) AND it includes what the national progressive party needs to do--the Green Party--to achieve progressive goals. Bravo to Aymon. I urge all of us to read that post very carefully. And also Red Harvests of--7-27-07 11:16 p.m. Complaining is easy. Finding solutions is hard. But there are many very good ideas that suggest positive strategies here.
Alkalye: With all due respect, you are the biggest "loudmouth asshole" I have seen in this whole thread. You are angry that we are angry, which is ridiculous. Why don't you actually offer your solution? I have yet to hear anyone on this comment section say they are "better than anyone else".
Furthermore, you are right about Green not advocating on behalf of the party as it is, and there are plenty of comments that point that out. However, many of those people who do think Green's article made a lot of sense - like myself - have simply come to the conclusion that we fucked in this country beyond the point at which slow, incremental change is viable. Dig? Many of us simply think the god damn thing has to be completely revolutionized in order to once again - if ever it did in the past - actually represent the intentions of the voting public.
By calling us "dimwits", you do nothing but set yourself aside as a loser, who is hell bent on changing the system from within the system. That's fine, when the system is still in a mode of operation in which it actually responds to the stimuli put forward by the populace. Alas, our system of voting and electioneering no longer does. Therefore, it would actually be more apt to call you the "dimwit". Instead though, on behalf of the rest of the "dimwits", I would like to invite you to consider that perhaps the fastest way to change the system we have - indeed revolutionize it - is to break it down to the ground and rebuild it brother.
I agree that it would be very helpful and interesting if Prof. Green would write an article about "how" to hijack the Democratic Party.
I mean a literal step 1, 2, 3 article.
And thank you to those who responded to my posts. The feedback is really appreciated.
As to ALKALYE....It seems odd to me that you would accuse all of us who have read Prof. Green's article and made comments as only thinking of ourselves!! It's BECAUSE we are thinking about the survival of the entire PLANET that we are spending hours and hours trying to communicate and figure out a way forward.
If I were only thinking of myself I would have gone to a movie tonight, had dinner out and a good martini then come home to read a good novel or some other brain candy to amuse myself and have "fun". Be nice.
POWER OF LOVE: Right on! So many argue the either/or divide. Either we have a just society and work on tangible external levels, or we focus on finding peace within. BOTH are necessary! Conscious individuals build a conscious, caring society. It's very difficult for those of us doing this interior work to function in a society that runs against our grain due to its low level "primitivo" ego-based functioning. I'll finish this point with an odd analogy. When Lauren Bacall was a young Vogue model taking her first Hollywood screentest, she was asked to kiss a leading male actor. (He must have hesitated on delivering his "role".) In front of everyone, the confident young woman said to the male actor, "It's a lot better if you help." That's pretty much my view of the interaction between a sane society and healthy individuals. Right now, both are struggling, one in near shambles.
Alkalye:
Alcohol much?
Nursery school bottom line: we need to take responsibility and Own the inner conequences of living in society dominated by authoritarian institutions and thought-forms. Our parents and theirs, school teachers, clergy etc etc: hobbled and lost within veil after veil of illusion.
Without inner work and a commitment to clear out our inner Garb-Age, we just continue and pass on our own twistedness. To do otherwise is to lay down and submit to forms of "inner blindness" and self-deception that simply keep the whole sordid game going.
So many of us are awash...
(and some drowning, others at best treading water,gasping for air)
...in emotions of rage, hatred, bitterness, disappointment, despair, horror, and fear.
There is a way to deal with these forms of suffering responsibly --- which means, first and foremost ---- not spewing and slathering spoiled-rotten peanut butter all over other people. And not vomiting all over them, either.
To paraphrase an old saw, "You want a peaceful world? Find peace within yourself, And create it within every single interaction with every other living being you encounter."
Hateful words/deeds just add more power to the hatred and ignorance already swirling around our little planet.
What's it going to be?
I-It
or I-Thou?
It's not just you, Alkalye.
We all must choose.
Beyond our need to grow up and to grow spiritually: in truthfullness, wisdom, and clarity of mind...
...there is one word which is a bottom-line foundation for solving our world problems.
That word is compassion.
Thank you David Michael Green... you stated far more eloquently what I've been arguing on this site for weeks... A third party is not going to happen based on how our political system is set up, let alone our history of two parties... A 3rd party candidate will never win the presidency, and if he/she ever did, would face a hostile Congress of the two traditional parties who would both have an interest in bringing him/her down..
The author is right. We have to fight this one out within the party - and I mean a dirty fistfight.. and win.. It's the only way we can see progressive principles instituted. The only result of voting for a 3rd party candidate on the left is to help vote in Bush-like Republicans. That is what voting for Nader in 2000 did...
And while I have agreed heartily that the Democratic party needs some testicular fortitude, it is NOT the same thing as the Republican party. Those who take this position are letting their anger cloud their judgement.
Let's hijack the Democratic party and bring it back to a left leaning platform..
YOU DIMWITS OBVIOUSLY MISINTERPRET (OR DIDN'T READ)THE ARTICLE.
HE AINT ADVOCATING SUPPORTING THE PARTY AS IT CURRENTLY
IS.
ANYONE----HITLER REINCARNATED, CAN JOIN/RUN IN THE DEMO PARTY...
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED ALL THESE DESIGNER LABELS FOR?
AINT LIKE YOUR DOIN ANYTHING ELSE BUT RANTING YOUR MOUTHS OFF HERE ANYWAY....
AND YOU YAPPERS THAT COMMENT HERE ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HARDLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MAJORITY OF THE PROGRESSIVES AND OR PEOPLE IN GENERAL THAT READ COMMONDREAMS.ORG....
MOST OF YOU ARE LOUD MOUTHED ASSHOLES THAT CAN'T FIND LIVE PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO YOUR BULLSHIT------
INFACT, MOST OF YOU POSTERS DON'T EVEN REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HUMANITY THE EARTH ETC....
THIS IS ALL JUST A FUCKING IDENTITY FOR YOU... ITS ALL AND ONLY ABOUT YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU
NARCISSSSSISSSSTICS JERKBAGS.
YOU AINT BETTER THEN ANYBODY ELSE.
abbywood wrote:
"Obviously you[aymon] are angry and I understand your anger. Just want you to know that I have many pictures I’ve clipped from The New York Times of children we’ve had a hand at maiming and killing in foreign lands. I’ve cried my share of tears over these photos. I can guarantee you that even though most of us have been focusing on the “How do we extricate ourselves out of this mess†rather than “looking at the mess we’ve madeâ€, we all are extremely upset with those who are currently in power in this country.
"And there is nothing on Earth any of us will ever be able to do to change any of them!"
Thank you very much, abbywood. I agree with your first para. but not with the second, not because I am naive, which I will demonstrate momentarily that I am not, but I see this frustration of helplessness envelopping many progressives and it is going to drain energy out of you.
I call this the "Wolfowitz" syndrome, and that affects a lot of Western progressives unlike Gandhi, beacuse the later was anchored in a very powerful belief that I as an easterner knows, having felt that myself:
It is:
SATYA VIJAY - - - TRUTH WILL BE VICTORIOUS
The "Wolfowitz" tipping point is that point when a committed trotskyist becomes a commited Neo-Nazi fascist.
Prior to being an extreme fascist, Wolfowitz in his younger days was a Trotskyist and extreme leftist. The western mind is Pavlov trained to seek instant gratifification, instant truth, instant change - - everything here and now. Naot getting that, it then goes into a long period of wishful thinking, and finally having not worked out any strategy that has reason and logic behind it, becomes angry at the organization of the world being immune to change. Finally, some such as Wolfowitz as well as many neo-cons, beieve that the world is scientifically ruthless and one must become a Stalinist rather than a Trotsykist to get anywhere in "real politik"
That said, I will put forward my analysis as to whether or not one can logically hope,given the facts on the ground,
for a truly progressive third party to arrive soon and which can change or even temporarily halt the slide into total and complete fascism.
Let me say at the outset, ANYTHING is always POSSIBLE, but few things are both possible and PROBABLE. Consequently, I am not saying that eventually, in the long run, a genuine third, or even fourth or fifth party will not be possible if America survives the blowback, internal economic and external climatic, that it is heading for on its current Bushco train. That blowback is going to occur for fully SCIENTIFIC reasons that I will not digress into (I have spelled them out in earlier posts) here in the next 10 years. I am asking,
Is that probable in the next 6 months?
The sad but logical truth based on reasoning and not wisful thinking is - - NO.
You do not have the luxury of working over generations to effect the positive changes through a not-yet-ready "third party". That is a fact on the ground. Also as John Maynard Keynes, the British Liberal economist who got the Western World out of the Great Depression of 1929-33 by providing a solid economic rationale for massive public works to get people working and earning their daily bread, said:
"In the long run we will be all dead."
That was in response to the influential (among the rich classes) British Imperlialist economists such as "Lord" Lionel Robbins who advocated leaving the "market" alone to work through the singularity by itself over a long run equlibrium.
Keynes was a Cambridge trained mathematicain and logician (Russel and Wittgenstein's student/colleague), and also fantastic economist. He logically wrestled the capitalist dogma that the "market" is God, down into dust so that it did not rear up its ugly head again until Ronald Reagan.
The purpose of this little digression is that there are many eloquently written posts above in response to Professor Green's article. Most have far better prose than mine. Many advocate rejection of Professor Green's thesis out- of- hand as being axiomatically soiled. But good prose does not a logical argument make.
A lot of what has been poured forth is the "long run", eventually, type of wishful thinking, completely oblivious of the reality on the ground. But that is not reasoning; that is ideological purity of the Trotskyite kind, very commendable as the conscience of a movement, but not practical. It is for that raeson, the practical implementation fell on Lenin, and then Stalin and you all know where the "people's" revolution went after that.
What do we have on the ground as facts now:
1. A raging war (occupation, whatever) in Iraq that appears to be grinding down the US miltary in an unending conflict, and Bushco in denial about it.
2. A possible larger war on Iran to cover up the defeat in Iraq, and the imposition of Martial Law (next 6 months or so)
3. An economy in shambles
4. A country in recession that may deepen into something much worse.
5. The advance guard of the forces of climate change comes in, striking randomly and causing unexpectedly large relief and restructuring expenditures.
Let us start with these five.
A viable third party candidate must articulate his or her strategy with some fire in his/her belly, some passion to galvanize a dozing, tuned out, dumbed down masses as to how he/she would address these five issues and others. Do we have that in Kuchinik? IMO, no. That does NOT mean I don't consider him conscientious, inteligent and one of the best progressives with a good vision. But somewhere along the line he will need to beome a Nader or a Dean to catch fire. Kuchinik is too genteel for that. Gravel may be more of a curmedgeon, but he still projects more gusto than Dennis. Dennis must learn from Gravel how to project an "I am in command" attitude.
But from that fact, does it follow logically that one HAS to be inside the Democratic Party and "hijack" it from inside. That is Professor Green's contention, but at this point his argument is weak on tactic and the possible response of the DLC and its anointed candidates - - Clinton and (now it seems) Edwards. They are hardly going to put their tails between the legs and slink off. So there is a high probability that the highjacker will be highjacked a la Dean in 2004.
The hijacking can only be done with an organized base of at least 20% of the Democratic Base as the army behind the highjacker to be able to demand a seat at the table and dicate conditions for support to the Clintonites. Can that be done in the milieu outlined in Points 1 -5 above?
Scientifically, or more correctly, by realpolitik, NO.
So what is left (pun intended)?
Stealth and less bravado, less chest beating and hysteria on blogs. Stealth and calm will put fear in the apparatchiks of the Dems. Kuchinik must learn to project a style that he is up to something that may bite them in the ass when they are least expecting it.
For that, progressives must start grass roots at town halls, union halls, college campuses and elsewhere. Especially minorities - - don't make them feel left out by your cultural insularity. Right now the Green pary is mostly white, and many of the Greens have checkeered records on civil rights issues that are of concern to progressives, especially minority progressives. Kuchinik must be seen to be bulding a labour/green/ minority coalition. This constitutes the bedrock of the Dem party, and any fear of losing that will put fear in the minds of a lot of Dem candidates standing up for re-elction.
This can succeed if the Green party's workers are available to do the canvassing and organizing and the rest of us pitching in with time, money or knowledge. Then one must use the YouTUbe and the Internet to bypass corporate opposition to go directly to the people.
This success may come just in time to prevent Bushco launching a catastrophic war aginst Iran, Syria and Pakistan (and possibly Turkey, and now Saudi Arabia). If the latter happens, then all bets are off.
Aymon
The problem with trying to "hijack" the Democratic Party, as you say, is that many of us don't believe in the core values (e.g. abortion on demand, selifishness, recklessness) of the Democratic Party anymore than we believe in the core values (e.g. war, torture, capital punishment, facism) of the Republican Party. Those of us who think this way believe that many of the people who have traditionally called themselves Democrats are just as foolish and naive as the people who call themselves Republicans.
That's why a third party is not only needed but, I believe, will in fact eventually be formed. I also think that a true pro-life party (promoting and protecting life from conception through old age while also promoting personal responsibility) will eventually appeal to the majority of Americans, and will one day be the majority party. The Republican Party has become firmly entrenched as the party that stands for facism. And the Democratic Party has become the party that stands for little more than abortion on demand, along with facism. You may be able to cut loose the facism from the Democratic Party, but you'll never get rid of the selfish, spriritually bereft portion of the party, because it is not the fringe but is actually the core.
RE: POLITICAL SHIFT RIGHT DUE TO INDUSTRIAL TO SERVICE ECONOMY SHIFT?
susan parker July 28th, 2007 4:38 pm
"the 'shift to the right'...represents the shift from a manufacturing/industrial economy to [white/pink collar, service economy]" - w/less bargaining power for wages and political demands, as you write.
That's basically my view, too.
Worse, despite Justice for Janitors' heartening successes in certain ethnically solid & politically organized regions, union membership slips - and, with it, not only organizational opposition, but, essentially, the class consciousness that even New Deal Democrat programs depend on.
'But that's class warfare!' is not new - but it becomes a more potent right wing slogan when there are fewer in the electorate accustomed to facing off against capital across a bargaining table.
I think this view is important - because it focuses not just on the power of right, but problems of opposition internal to forces that have historically opposed the right.
I think the "shift to the right" simply represents the shift from a manufacturing/industrial economy to that much vaunted "white collar" or "pink collar" service economy.
The decline of the troublesome and demanding labor unions of course followed ... and wage stagnation followed to ... and work related benefits declined in turn ...
Most of the only unions left are public service jobs -- teachers, health care, police ...
When labor was organized and had money, they could not be ignored ... these days ... not so much. Other interests moved in to fill the vacancy.
[I'm still waiting to find a connection between the service workers Justice for Janitors campaign and Lou Dobbs, et al's hysteria wrt "illegals" ... historically, many "american" union movements have had to be imported and were fought and squashed on the basis of "commie" or "anarchist" outside agitators]
chlamor said:
"Okay you’re on. What is Step One professor?"
Go to your local DTC meetings, get on your local DTC, participate in candidate selection, help shape the terms of debate, run for local office, run for the state legislature.
Tried and true blue stuff.
Among those other places that have passed clean elections is Connecticut. 100% public financing of all state races, effective 2008. Could never have happened without a lot progressive activists doing all of the above.
To those of you that say politicians will never pass "clean election" legislation.
Arizona, Maine, City of Portland Oregon and other places already have clean election systems.
Where I am in Washington State, http://www.washclean.org has been lobbying for legislation for several years. The plan is to get a voter initiative passed in 2009 if legislation does not pass the 2008 state legislative session.
These systems can get implemented and can succeed. It is certainly a more realistic path than trying to get someone elected who is fighting the effects of too much corporate money in the hands of their opponent and a media system that works against them. I say put your money and your labor towards efforts that can make VIABLE third parties a reality rather than support third party efforts that are doomed to fail in a system that is stacked against them.
abbybwood wrote:
"Excuse me while I go barf."
And,
"After reading every post after Prof. Green’s article here, I must admit that I feel isolated, impotent, unloved and alienated from this country."
Don't we all! (Disenfranchisement is the name of game in today's world).
However, let's remember that people all over the world, at our current level of development, are almost exclusively externally-oriented...... Often to the point of obsession and "inner blindness." Don't get me wrong here. I do see it as critical that we focus (as in all of the comments here), on making change in the "un-real-real-world" of parties, politics, and human-human (and human-Nature) injustice.
However, in achieving a more just and wisdom-prone society, there are other beneficent kinds of power to draw upon, besides those we can see with our eyes.
Gandhi referred to such a "power" as "Truth-force. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. also spoke of it as "Soul-force."
While these energies can be utilized in evoking and unfolding outer change, our access to them requires an inner, rather than outer movement. A "going within ourselves" first. Genuine meditation: a quieting of the mind and an opening of the compassionate heart, free of "I, Me, and Mine." Each of us needs to hook up their own personal connection: getting our plug into the electric socket, as it were.
Not for nothing, but it seems to me that in today's world, which is literally teetering on the edge, we ignore these other dimensions of power at our own risk.
A
RE: BITTER, ISOLATED, IMPOTENT TRIUMPHALISM
erma July 28th, 2007 2:35 pm
"I was correct....I could cite you reams of information of why...but judging by your comments you still wouldn’t see it because you don’t want to see it (that’s called Denial). So I won’t bother presenting you with any information Go ahead and continue to...believe [Democrats] are going to be your 'lord and saviour.'"
Yea, no one but you and your cellmates know the truth, everyone else is wrong and stupid.
So - continue your bold "action": bash a strawman and then pull a Vietnam - declare victory and get out.
Cozy in your red ivory tower?
This has been one hell of a read today, just checked in to see what else was added. My take on all of this is the hired killers will never let anyone close to become our hero. Wellstone is dead, there is a reason for that and it's been repeated throughout our recent history. The whole empire thing has to end. The country should be broken up. This country is like the lava lamp that kept growing and adding to the point the glob wants it all. Secede States, civil war come what may, better than pursuing world war 3 while we diddle about what to do with the current world threatening situation that will make us sitting ducks. Fuck the elections, get ready, it's out of your hands. We all saw the Katrina victims, you are on your own. Get your food supply, ammo, be ready.
DMG and Chomsky are right. Hold your nose and vote Democrat. Some of the Independent-minded have been sucking on the pipe too long. Yeah, I understand, we all love a common dream.
RE: 3rd PARTIES - TACTICAL vs STRATEGIC REJECTION OF DEMOCRATS AS ONE FRONT OF STRUGGLE
RichM July 28th, 2007 2:03 pm
"don’t see much that I disagree with in your explanation of the rightwards shift."
It is a question of the conclusions to be drawn from this explanation re seeking to reform or pressure Democratic Party.
The above posted explanation is not dependent on idea of US political system as an instrument of class rule. And, therefore, it does not follow that the political system is merely a ruling class ruse - vs. one contested field of power - nor that a categorical rejection of pressuring Democrats - a multi-front-struggle - must be rejected