EMAIL SIGN UP!
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Seven Points About Dick Cheney and Torture
First of all, Dick Cheney has all sorts of nerve purporting to speak in defense of the CIA. His administration outed a senior CIA operative, Valerie Plame, in retaliation for her husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, exercising his freedom of speech (because he exercised it to criticize the Bush administration's lie-filled, one-way propaganda train to the Iraq war).
Second, CIA interrogators themselves have said that they believed that Cheney's torture policy put individual CIA personnel in legal jeopardy. As Greg Sargent has pointed out, on page 94 of the recently released Inspector General's report, we learn the following:
"During the course of this Review, a number of Agency officers expressed unsolicited concern about the possibility of recrimination or legal action resulting from their participation in the CTC program....One officer expressed concern that one day, Agency officers will wind up on some "wanted list" to appear before the World Court for war crimes..."
This is not even to mention, in a broader sense, the risk to any US personnel that possibly ended up in "enemy" hands where captors of US prisoners could justify their own acts of torture by pointing to US tactics.
Third, Dick Cheney showed utter contempt for the CIA when he went not once, not twice, but more than a dozen times to Langley to pressure analysts to fit intelligence to his political agenda. He and his top aide Scooter Libby were "attempting to pressure analysts on the subject of weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, according to Vincent Cannistraro, a former counterterrorism chief at the CIA. So when Cheney talks about being "offended as hell," let's remember how much faith Cheney had in the CIA in the lead up to the Iraq invasion. I'm sure the CIA analysts who he tried to manipulate were "offended as hell" by Cheney's actions. "The visits were, in fact, unprecedented," wrote Ray McGovern, who was vice president George HW Bush's national security briefer. "During my 27-year career at the Central Intelligence Agency, no vice president ever came to us for a working visit." Those personal visits were in addition to the ones Cheney received at home. "I enjoyed having the CIA show up on my doorstep every morning, six days a week, with the latest intelligence," Cheney said on Fox News Sunday.
Fourth, the tactics Cheney apparently loves were a violation of US law, international law and conventions that the US has ratified-including the Convention Against Torture ratified under the militant leftist regime of Ronald Reagan. That dovish draft-dodger who wouldn't know torture if he endured it for several years, John McCain, pointed out the lawless aspects of Cheney's torture program on CBS's "Face the Nation" on Sunday. "I think the interrogations were in violation of the Geneva Conventions and the convention against torture that we ratified under President Reagan," said McCain. "I think these interrogations, once publicized, helped al Qaeda recruit. I got that from an al Qaeda operative in a prison camp in Iraq... I think that the ability of us to work with our allies was harmed. And I believe that information, according to the FBI and others, could have been gained through other members."
Fifth, there is no evidence-none-to suggest any of this torture produced any actionable intelligence. "I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told Sean Hannity back in April on Fox News. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."
Well, those documents were released last week. Cheney, clearly knowing that many "journalists" apparently wouldn't bother reading them, was all over the media claiming the documents absolve him and that torture worked. The problem is, they showed nothing of the sort and actually-upon a close read-indicate that techniques that did not involve torture produced better results. Some portions "actually suggest the opposite of Cheney's contention: that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA's interrogations," as Spencer Ackerman observed in the Washington Independent.
Let's remember: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a blowhard braggart long before he was taken prisoner by the US in March 2003, as Jane Mayer has pointed out. Al Jazeera did not need to waterboard him or put a drill to his head or threaten to rape his wife before he bragged about being the mastermind of 9/11 on the network before being captured. "[T]here's no evidence that I see in [the declassified documents] that these things were necessary," observed Mayer. "I spoke to someone at the CIA who was an adviser to them who conceded to me that ‘We could have gotten the same information from tea and crumpets.'"
Also, Mohammed told the International Committee of the Red Cross that he gave misinformation to US interrogators as well. "During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop," Mohammed told the ICRC. "I later told the interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time and led to several false red-alerts being placed in the US." This raises an unanswerable question: Who knows how many US lives were put at risk because of bad intelligence obtained from torture?
One of the few people that had actually seen the documents to which Cheney was referring before they were released and had the courage to speak up was Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold. In May, he said: "I am a member of the Intelligence Committee, and I can tell you that nothing I have seen, including the two documents to which [Cheney] has repeatedly referred, indicates that the torture techniques authorized by the last administration were necessary or that they were the best way to get information out of detainees." Now that the public has had access to these documents, it is clear, as Feingold said months ago, that Cheney was "misleading the American people." And, with the cooperation of a lazy and pliant media, Cheney continues to run his own televised miseducation camp. And let's be honest: It ain't just Fox News. The Washington Post now appears to be a private little Pravda for Cheney and his tiny group of minions formerly employed by the CIA. "The Post management, it seems, is determined to return to its past practice of acting as stenographers for the CIA's PR machine," McGovern, the former CIA analyst, recently wrote.
The role that the media should actually play in all of this was summed up well by Shayana Kadidal of the Center for Constitutional Rights, who rightly points out that the tactics were not limited to waterboarding, but included "threats of rape, of killing children, of blowing cigar smoke into detainee's faces until they retch, in addition to the power drills and mock executions:"
"We've long said that if you televise an execution that will be the end of public support for the death penalty. In a similar way, one hopes that the more the reality of torture is put before the American public, the less support there will be for it. When the issue is presented - as in the earliest leaked torture memos - as a legal abstraction, it's easier for the public to rationalize the idea that nothing wrong is taking place."
Sixth, at the end of the day, as Glenn Greenwald has pointed out, the debate about whether torture actually worked is not the central point here:
The debate over whether torture extracted valuable information is, in my view, a total sideshow, both because (a) it inherently begs the question of whether legal interrogation means would have extracted the same information as efficiently if not more so (exactly the same way that claims that warrantless eavesdropping uncovered valuable intelligence begs the question of whether legal eavesdropping would have done so); and (b) torture is a felony and a war crime, and we don't actually have a country (at least we're not supposed to) where political leaders are free to commit serious crimes and then claim afterwards that it produced good outcomes. If we want to be a country that uses torture, then we should repeal our laws which criminalize it, withdraw from treaties which ban it, and announce to the world (not that they don't already know) that, as a country, we believe torture is justifiable and just. Let's at least be honest about what we are. Let's explicitly repudiate Ronald Reagan's affirmation that "[n]o exceptional circumstances whatsoever ... may be invoked as a justification of torture" and that "[e]ach State Party is required [] to prosecute torturers."
Seventh, one last point about Dick Cheney and his little toadie Chris Wallace when they talk about how there hasn't been another attack since 9-11. Remember toadie's sarcastic words: "I just want to point out to the audience that it is purely coincidental that this country has not been attacked since 9/11." How about the more than 4,300 US troops that have been killed in Iraq as a result of the Bush-Cheney lie factory? That is more American dead than perished on 9/11. Those young men and women would not have died in Iraq had it not been for the policies of Bush and Cheney.
- Posted in
Comments
Note: Disqus 2012 is best viewed on an up to date browser. Click here for information. Instructions for how to sign up to comment can be viewed here. Our Comment Policy can be viewed here. Please follow the guidelines. Note to Readers: Spam Filter May Capture Legitimate Comments...


52 Comments so far
Show AllThe official story of 9/11 is an atrocious LIE. Nothing will change that. All involved parties are gulty of treason and subject to prosecution and at least incarceration, if not execution. PLEASE support NYC CAN for a new investigation of 9/11.
How's that Mr. Moderator? Censor this and your true colors will show through.
I have never seen any evidence that these comments are moderated.
In my experience, it is the freest political commentary site for responses I have found.
I gather you've never had comments simply disappear after they've been published. That's the evidence you don't see!
· Yr Obd't Servant
You're right.
I haven't seen things that were not there.
waiguoren (September 1st, 2009 1:20 pm), and others -- check out later comments by myself and pudepoh on this thread.
waiguoren September 1st, 2009 9:26 am...........Sorry, friend, ICH is a much more open site. Only thing I have seen them censor is outright ponography. I have been banned and censored countless times...usually for bringing up 9/11.
NeverGiveUp: I've been censored, too - for bringing up how CIA, MI6, Mossad, ISI, etc. manufactured 9-11.
I've also been censored for (gasp!) suggesting that the CIA (and its cohorts above) meddle in countries where they can support the drug trade (Colombia, Afghan, etc. etc. etc.)
And also censored for suggesting that the financial crisis / bailout was used as a cover to launder boatloads of illegal drug money.
Wasn't it Roosevelt who said that no matter what bad things we THINK our government is doing, the reality is worse?
good stuff never give up - 9/11 = false flag, self-inflicted terrorist event to jumpstart the new imperial war on the oil and gas of the middle east
our government never even blinked when it calculated the lives lost - in the name of the imperium all the peasants are cannon fodder
let's try em and then fry em
i am with you on that never give up
Here is an eighth point about Dick Cheney. He apparently realizes that he can say just about anything he wishes because he seems to be secure in the knowledge that the Democrats will allow him to walk away and for him to breathe the air around him as they seemingly have no intention of bringing him to trial in order to punish him for his misdeeds and for his war crimes.
You've identified the bottom-line on this. Cheney's practically daring them to pursue him.
My irony detectors must have overloaded and burned out. I had to read this ("That dovish draft-dodger who wouldn't know torture if he endured it for several years, John McCain...") twice before it sunk in.
In a "just" world, Dick Cheney would be in a Federal Maximum Security Prison (with one hour per day of recreation in a small atrium with a basketball and a hoop with no net).
Barack Obama did not inherit the torture situation. By his own rhetoric he was elected to stop it. He won't allow any further evidence to be made public because, "it will endanger troops in the field", sound familiar? Until he shreds his own copys of the Dick Cheney: How to Have Fun with Torture and the Donald Rumsfeld: How to Make Sure Every Syllable Spoken from My Mouth Is a Lie playbooks or better yet, take the "just", "honest and humane" path, stopping this criminality paid for by US, the water will keep flowing! Sounds lovely!
we haven't had any elephant stampedes down the mall in wahsington since 9/11 either - that fucker cheney is good, he kept us safe from that as well
I'm not so sure about that there are no longer elephant stampedes. They are now disguised as donkeys.
What most americans should be concerned about is not that there were so many members of the Republican Presidential Administration who were willing to commit international crimes. Crimes that they conspired to commit on foreign soil against foreign nationals. But that they did so from the inside of the White House or in Washington D.C and that there are still so many americans that are willing to 'over look' these damaging facts, and allow these criminals to still remain free.
If there were members of another nations highest office holders who had done the same things, and there people were conducting themselves in the same manner that so many americans are; the American People would be 'screaming' for an invasion of that nation and those high office holders apprehension and detention for trials.
But then I am reminded that I am speaking about 'Americans'-- the most hypocritical people on the planet; and most likely in the history of humanity.
"If the USA were another nation, the USA would invade the USA to keep the world safe; and they would be justified.
Good Luck America, you really need it.
One officer expressed concern that one day, Agency officers will wind up on some "wanted list" to appear before the World Court for war crimes...". Have no fear of that because:
1) The Dutch government is a staunch supporter of anything the Americans in their wisdom might do;
2) There is still the threat of an attack on The Hague in case any American might be called to account before the World Court.
The lazy media and the gullible audience went along with it.
Chris Wallace sez: "I just want to point out to the audience that it is purely coincidental that this country has not been attacked since 9/11."
***
Hey, Chris ... I just want to point out that it's not so coincidental that the country (sic) WAS attacked ON 9/11. All the glory and grandeur that has since accrued to Cheneybush - who happened to be in charge at the time - flowed directly from that day.
Your makeup squadron is pretty good, but there seems to be a brown spot showing through on your nose.
Why did Bush let Herr Cheney take over as president at will? I meant dictator. No country has ever been as murderious as this one under that regime. No country has ever beey totally destroyed in everyway as this under any other self appointed dictators. The nasty five on the surpreme court are really proud of their babies born under their selection. Hang them all.
Don't you believe that Bush was the hand picked patsy for the Presidency by the neocons and their leader, Cheney? Bush was perfect, a little slow, a little dumb and loved to play dress up. He played the part to the best of his feeble abilities, put on a suit and played the role, reading (most times poorly) the script given to him by his puppet masters. If this had been a movie, the President (George) would have finally seen the light, put on his white hat, gotten on his white horse (George didn't ride horses) and overcome the evil doers with his outstanding goodness and dedication to making things right again. No movie. No corrections, just a lot of covering up mess after mess, creating a situation that was best left to Obama to clean up. Unfortunately, Obame doesn't wear a hat at all, Black or White..just seems to roll whatever way the wind is blowing. His side kick, his new Chief of Staff appears to be the new Cheney, directing the decisions made by the White House.....
It is way past time to ignore Cheney; he is proven time and again to be a bald-faced liar. I don't want to read or hear anything about him unless he is arrested and put on trial.
This will likely never happen, as the new faction of war criminals are in power and don't want to look to the past. Forget history, forget the so-called rule of law and forget justice.
It is too bad that these 7 excellent points will only fall on deaf ears in the current White House.
Bennett Miller
Shreveport, LA
Interesting that it's Cheney running around trying to cover his ass. Released documents all seem to lead to Cheney, Cheney this, Cheney that. He was the fricken Vice President. He really was in charge wasn't he? Has that ever happened before? I hope he lives just long enough to see the gallows wrap around his neck.
Either charge Bush/Cheney for war crimes, or charge Obama/Biden for protecting war criminals..makes no difference to me.
But allowing these obvious war crimes to happen without ANY consequences just ensures they will happen again,. and again, and again.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
This Dick knew from the get go he was not going to be CIC. He also knew who he was working for, and it was not the American people - ever.
This Dick rode in on the backs of some real nasty dudes - guys that pulled the plug on a CIC back in 63'.
This Dick has a black book with numbers that could get you, me and just about any one worth less than 20 billion or so a dirt nap within 24 hours.
If you are going to do dirty work for a living, do it like this Dick. You dont work for the good of the people and survive it. If you want to get away with murder you work for the chicken shits who pay the most money to keep what they have stolen already.
This Dick has it all written down in three safety deposit boxes somewhere - names dates and places. You can rest assured that he will die of old age - and unconvicted.
War Shit Jingoism, aka the Wall Street Journal, is apparently floating a trial balloon to get Cheesedick the Republican nomination in 2012. WSJ is the Pravda of the MSM; so obviously they're serious. I say good, give him the nomination. He'll be 70 years old with a heart made of peanut brittle. Run that MoFo against Obama. Perhaps a third party candidate can get some real support that way.
Another home-run, Jeremy. Thanks.
Your ever vigilant, no-holds-barred commentary reminds me of my friend Chris Sewall, who worked for many years for the Western Shoshone Defense Project (www.wsdp.org). He had a bumper sticker on his small pickup truck that said simply "Nature Bats Last".
I'd say your article proves that "Truth" and "Justice" are right there in the rotation.
Thanks again.
Pete Litster
Salt Lake City, Utah
have noted that torture is frequently a real turn on for both sexes in the US culture--as well as here in Latin America.
And the link between pornography and violence has been well soldered. (Even Ted Bundy blamed his serial killer capers on an early obsession with pornographic magazines.)
In Latin America they train counterinsurgents/paramilitaries by showing them a lot of porn films and sending them out immediately to rape, pillage, torture and kill--and that training was learned at the infamous gringo "School of Americas"--or whatever it is calling itself these days.
If you want to see a more UPBEAT version of Cheney, watch the surprisingly well-made film from the 80s that still floats around at film events, Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, by Joh McNaughton. Although the film is fiction, it is based on the life of serial killer Henry Lee Lucas.
That is a great film. I forget, does the killer get away in the end?
Can you provide us with sources?
Remember Edwin Meese? He tried, but failed to find any such links.
Let's see what you were able to scrounge up.
Sources to back up the statement that links porn with violence. This is what Meese attempted to find, but did not succeed in his efforts.
Thank god that impeachment was off the table, thanks to our intrepid Democratic Party Leadership, while concentrating on the corporate bailout which was a compassionate act done out of a strong sense of patriotism and justice.
Single payer health care is off the table and thank god that the middle east war is now a topic that is off the radar of commondreams and other progressives so that we can concentrate all our efforts on the one thing that will save this country- clean coal.
Hope is the opiate of the masses.
www.NotOneMore.US
You cannot have a corrupted government without a corrupted mainstream media.
Worth checking out.
http://www.metaphoria.org/ac4t0905.html
Pudepoh, in theory then, your post containing this link should be 'disappeared'.
Give it time. Yesterday I had two (utterly benign) comments removed, and was blocked from the site, yet for some reason my account stayed open.
Go ahead and try to start a discussion about it. See what happens. If you can successfully do it, I think it would be a very important discussion to have.
If the article is correct (as it certainly has been FOR ME and others) what do you of the practice?
I have no problem with banning SPAM, threats, insults etc... but opinions, come on, doesn't that violate the principles of CD?
pudepoh (September 1st, 2009 7:39 pm), and others: Having been banned myself (from "American Thinker," after having had a great time sparring with conservatives, but never from CD, although I've received severe reprimands from commenters), I have an idea. If CD really does censor, it ought to have a special place for removed or banned comments, to allow people inclined to read them to draw whatever conclusions they may from the censorship. My preference would be to put there all comments that personally attack people with threats or wishes for them to be killed, tortured, etc., or that dwell incessantly, without being constructive, on terms like stupid, crazy, ridiculous, and all the obscenities that convey those concepts. Libel seems not to be a consideration on the Internet, but if for some reason a comment should be censored for being libelous, it could be redacted sufficiently to allow understanding why it was censored without totally "disappearing" it.
Why not?
"If CD really does censor, it ought to have a special place for removed or banned comments, to allow people inclined to read them to draw whatever conclusions they may from the censorship."
I can assure you that they do ban people without explanation. Anyone remember "Ric Abreu", "John Caruso", "PJD", or "KDelphi"? A google search shows that they all claim to have been banned. I'm "pudepoh" now, only because I was banned as "hopedup". So, will they let me mention it? I have no idea (so far I guess so).
Why would I fake being banned?
Setting that aside, I think your suggestion is a wonderful idea. What annoys me the most is that they censor comments in a way so that few people notice, and you have no idea why your comment was censored. At first, I even figured it might be a computer glitch.
I haven't tried phoning them (and I don't think I will either, I'd rather not make this "personal" by talking to them), but they have not responded to the emails I've sent.
If they are going to do this, why not do what most newspapers do at at least leave behind the statement "this comment was removed"?
pudepoh (September 2nd, 2009 2:05 am)-- I agree with you. When my writing doesn't get printed, I usually just go somewhere else, because I don't learn if there's no feedback. My principle reason for writing, other than trying to change the world, is to learn, and that's not really feasible without responses.
Your comments about getting no responses from the sponsor (CD) also resonate with me, because there again, if you don't find out why your comment was excluded, you learn nothing.
I stopped writing for the NYT because of their screening. Same with the Mensa Bulletin (and I quit Mensa). But also on the NYT forums, and some others, the volume of contributions was so high that my comments got lost. That hasn't been a problem with CD.
I stopped contributing to American Thinker because they wouldn't allow me to include with my comments a disclaimer stating that my participation was not to be understood as supporting or acquiescing to illegal proposals by their contributors (some of the contributors were making thinly veiled assassination plans right on the site). The disclaimer seemed like a good idea because they wouldn't allow my comments suggesting that law enforcement review their threads for the assassination threats.
Threats to commit crimes has also, by the way, turned out to be a minor problem on CD, but certainly not as chillingly blatant as on American Thinker. By the way, administrators on that site at least communicated with me about my concern before disallowing any comments with the disclaimer, and then removing all my comments except one in which I agreed with one of their articles.
Withholding comments is a good way to punish web sites for unfair censorship. If they don't appreciate your comments anyway (as was the case with American Thinker), the next best option is to part ways. Fortunately, the Internet has many places to go.
Maybe CD will take us up on the proposal for at least providing some means of accessing censored comments. Perhaps, for example, contributors could agree that their email addresses could be disclosed if their comments aren't printed (along with the "this comment was removed" notice), so that people could directly contact the author to find out what was removed.
You call them on the phone and talk to them. Their number is easy to find.
The censoring is true, just do a google search.
I have sent at least a dozen emails, all very polite, to CD asking about this policy.
Not one reply.
I am not doubting you. I am only saying to confront them personally by calling them up on the phone. Ask for whichever editor you wish to speak to by their name, or ask for the big cheese himself. Don't cower behind an email message that they won't answer.
They're moderators. They won't censor public challenges because it only proves our points about them.
And as for your criticism, most of the us share your point of view over those of leadership type Democrats. I'm not exactly sure what censoring us would do, unless they happen to think you're a leader amongst us or too vocal.
In the movie version, Cheney realizes he's f@#ked and, with a band of super-loyal CIA agents and Blackwater patriots and 'Family' members, orders hits on all domestic 'enemies' while simultaneously storming the White House and leading a successful coup.
34 minutes later, Iran, North Korea, a random country just to make a point, and the ACLU are nuked. Sec of Defense Glen Beck orders all liberals to report to the nearest Halliburton Happy Resort...
Side note: assuming an 8 year 'global war on terror,' the 'terrorists' have killed/wounded over 400,000 US/COW/NATO soldiers and contractors and drained our Treasury of $4 trillion and counting.
The more we Americans hear the actual, huge, disgusting 'keeping us safe' numbers, the more likely demands for an end to the madness will amplify...
Well said Jeremy,
In a country with a real judicial system, Cheney would not be doing the Sunday circuit. He would be broadcasting from prision, if he were lucky.
NOW can we prosecute, convict, and imprison?
Here's what i want to know: If Cheney (and those like him) believes torture is justified if it will save lives, does he believe the North Vietnamese were justified in torturing John McCain? Surely he had info that would have saved numerous NV lives.
A Novel idea (the 8th point):
OK, we have known that torture produces shit.
Vader is evil, but not stupid.
IF someone with the motive, means and opportunity to commit a crime, also had control of a cadre of CIA types inside and outside the agency, and had himself named anti-terrorist tsar...had unlimited funds, aircraft, satellites, etc...and had a need to cover his tracks of pre-nineleven activity...
Would he then need a cover for his use of those resources?
I suggest, for you spy novel types, that the torture circus we witness now is a red herring, gladly set upon by the media, gladly accepted by congress and an administration which don't want boat rocking of this kind, easy to understand by GAP...
Fairly fringy idea. Fits his actions now---fanning the torture frenzy. If it stopped at torture, he would have fanned the thing before that, no?
Where is Grisham when you need him?
For those with a very strong stomach:
http://www.rense.com/general87/ams.htm
Torture and killing of prisoners and non combatants in the USA before it was the USA, pre- civil war, the Phillipines, during world war II, Korea, Viet Nam and the Chicago Police Department from 1972-1993. Also what goes on RIGHT NOW in most US prisons.
http://www.rense.com/general87/ams.htm
Cheney is the tail end of a systemic rot at the top of our national security, military and prison culture.