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US Economic Myths Bite the Dust
This month my CEPR colleagues John Schmitt and Nathan Lane showed that the United States is not the nation of small businesses that it is regularly dressed up to be for electoral campaign speeches and editorials. If we look at what percentage of our overall labour force is self-employed, or what percentage of manufacturing workers or high-tech workers are employed in small businesses – well, the US ranks at or near the bottom among high-income countries.
As economist Paul Krugman noted after reading the study: "One more American myth bites the dust." Indeed it has. And as both the authors of the paper and Krugman note, there is a plausible explanation for the US's low score in the small business contest: our lack of national health insurance. There are enough risks associated with choosing to start a business over being an employee, but the Europeans don't have to worry that they will go bankrupt for lack of health insurance.
A number of other alleged advantages of America's "economic dynamism" are also mythical. Most people think that there is more economic mobility in America than in Europe. Guess again. We're also near the bottom of rich countries in this category, for example as measured by the percentage of low-income households that escape from this status each year.
The idea that the US is more "internationally competitive" has been without economic foundation for decades, as measured by the most obvious indicator: our trade deficit, which peaked at 6% of GDP in 2006. (It has fallen sharply from its peak during this recession but will rebound strongly when the economy recovers).
And of course the idea that our less regulated, more "market-friendly" financial system was more innovative and efficient – widely held by our leading experts and policy-makers such as Alan Greenspan, until recently – collapsed along with our $8tn housing bubble.
On the other hand, most Americans pay a high price for the institutional arrangements that bring us these mythical successes. We have the dubious honour of being the only "no-vacation nation", ie no legally required paid time off and of course some weeks fewer actual days off per year than our European counterparts enjoy. We have a broken healthcare system that costs about twice as much per capita as that of our peer nations and delivers worse outcomes, as measured by life expectancy and infant mortality. We are near the top in terms of inequality among high-income countries and at the bottom for parental leave policies and paid sick days. The list is a long one.
Yet it was just two years ago that Nicholas Sarkozy successfully won the presidency of France by arguing that the French could not afford their welfare state and had to adopt a series of reforms that would make the French economy more "dynamic" like that of the US. These included tax cuts for the rich and labour law changes that would make it easier for employers to fire people.
Many French are now sorry they voted for this guy and very glad that they have more protection than most Americans have from the ravages of the recession. Of course they could also use a larger economic stimulus, but the fact that they don't have one is due to the neoliberal policies of their own government and those of the European Union, especially the European Central Bank.
There is another area where the comparison between the American and European model has serious implications for the future of the planet: climate change. "Old Europe" uses about half as much energy per capita as the US does. A big part of this difference is because Europeans, in recent decades, have taken much more of their productivity gains in the form of increased leisure time, rather than working the same (or longer) hours in order to consume more.
We estimated that the US would consume about 20% less energy if it had the work hours of the EU-15. This would have a significant impact on world carbon emissions. Furthermore, when the world economy recovers, there are a number of middle-income countries that will approach high-income status in the not-too-distant future (South Korea and Taiwan are already there). Whether they choose the American or the European model will have an even bigger impact on global climate change.
The major media in both Europe and the United States have played an important role, for decades, in helping politicians capitalise on economic mythology to push policy in economic and socially destructive directions on both sides of the Atlantic. It remains to be seen how much the Great Recession will influence the thinking and reporting of these influential institutions.
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Show AllWork and consumerism are the US social control mechanisms. People have to be kept on the treadmills.
The US boss class cannot afford to let the workers have leisure time -- at least not leisure time that is not filled with shopping for junk.
It's not about prosperity; it's about control, about grinding other people's faces into the dirt.
The key message is in the final paragraph. The influences of mass media dominated and controlled almost entirely by corporate interests are almost insurmountable. And the internet is high on the priority list to join the vast wasteland. (See the related CD sidebar story: Major Carriers Shun Broadband Stimulus.)
The French are hardly alone in regretting their electoral decision after the fact, but they, like others, can rest assured that forthcoming media campaigns will continue to steer them in the "right" direction.
Let is be said - again and again from now on in social exchanges anywhere , be they among friends or co-workers, or families or larger groups:
THE USA MODEL of ECONOMICS has been DISCREDITED...as the MYTH that it is.
if people ask why: go down the list one by one....but warn: even if those listening control themselves to NOT interrupt and just listen, a LISTING alone will take the whole day...as to why the USA model has been DISCREDITED WORLDWIDE..as to how where the USA model , when its finger is in ANY pie ANYWHERE ALWAYS led to disastrous consequences......from war and famine, to malnutrition, to deaths, to maiming, to loss of liberties, to expanding poverty, to pollution, to destruction of entire economies, disruption of social fabrics, to enmities and resentments, to more bad seeds and bad fruit...
and should REMAIN discredited and americans and everyone else ought to stay away from it as FAR as they can.......it's POISON to people , to children, to animals, to plants, to air, to water, to the planet........its corporatist "model" is just bad, bad, bad
and it's nothing more than a Delivery system for the modern version of the USA's greatest Foundation and Core:
the DEHUMANIZATION and ENSLAVEMENT of People Everywhere.
DISCREDITED, got it?
Well said. And those people who want us to "love it or leave it" as if this imperialistic, agressive, dog eat dog european bullshit that has visited America for 500 years is native to it, I say there are a LOT of Americans who don't buy the buy 'em or bop 'em model we so love here. We want a saner society built on mutual respect. Brutal competition is okay for sports like football or hockey but we don't need to act like roving monkey bands trying to rape and pillage each other. For those who don't like to treat humans with respect unless they have a big house or car or some fancy sheep skin from an Ivy league whore house, I say YOU are the one who should leave. Gates wants some people in Afghanistan. Why don't you predators go there and have some fun with capitalism. Afghans are VERY competitive.
I get a kick out of these folks who go on and on about the Asian "atrocities" and "mistreatment" of their people. Here we sit with a paltry 300 million in the USA. A country that has lived, breathed and shitted violence from the start. We killed 600,000 in the civil war alone. We fight and fight and fight. We are agressive, belligerent, intolerant and damned nosey. Asia had a chance to do all that imperialistic shit and did not while Europeans were running around with bows and arrows. Asia has a population density that is absolute proof that their societies cultivate harmony. Sure, they are human and they fight and steal too. But we would be PAYING our neighbors to kill each other in the USA if we had the population density that Asia has. When we've been around a thousand years or so, then we can talk about our country's alleged virtues. For now, the USA is as Noam Chomsky said, A FAILED STATE.
And to those morons who think I'm saying this because I'm Asian, sorry. I am not Asian and have no Asian ancestors that I know of. I just happen to think with an open mind and a clear perspective. Common-dweebs should try that sometime; for a supposed winner, he sure is a whiner.
Very diplomatic of the Brits to refer to 'policy blunders' rather than another barbaric ratchetting back of a catapault.
Our government is like a vinyl record with a scratch on it - in hi fidelity.
I hope the younger generation does some archeo/anthro digging into cultural artifacts if for no other reason than the wealth of metaphors surrounding kitch creation that planned obsolence provides - sort of like Latin being valued because it is a 'dead language'. In this respect Ralph Nader does double duty. The young can read him for poetic content as well.
Anyone who looks to the US for guidance on economic issues is nuts. Essentially, everything that's offered as solutions in the article would require even more of what's causing the world's problems: Debt. It's an experiment that's been going on in every country and the entire world economy for a century. It takes a long time for something like this to play out but we could be coming to the final collapse. Some will argue we are all in this together, so all this government and private debt doesn't matter what matters as economists like Krugman argue is that we keep that mad consumption machine going and debt be damned and throw the financially prudent savers to the fires. A friend of mine who was buying at the peak of the market a several hundred thousand dollar condo, which should have been priced less than six figures in a sane economy told me, when I questioned the wisdom of such a decision that he's not worried because whatever happened everyone is doing it and we are all in this together. Well, that turned out to not be true, fiscally sound practices and good judgement in economic matters are important even in this Fed manipulated, Krugman cheerleading, debt mad world. And perhaps it will come soon that we find it does matter that every economy in the world has been spending far far beyond their means. And that will be the greatest myth of the world economy finally biting the dust.
the economies that are ABLE to spend and consume - under the Maldistribution system that is US capitalism - have been overconsuming and overspending for that overconsumption.
it is of course a result - in a global system - of this maldistribution system fostered by the United States that FORCED the ENTIRE globe - capitalist or not willingly - to try to "function" within that system Dictated and Imposed by the USA primarily, although , to be clear, that had its genesis in european colonialist expansion leading to consumption and consumption and consumption until it has become the DOGMA of global social structure.
the USA is like the leader of Locusts - who consume endlessly until all the grain is gone , leaving nothing in return but devastation and desert - until when the earth heals itself or the periodic rains come to grow more new crops - the swarm comes again.
the difference of course is the USA behaves like Locusts in CONSUMPTION but leaves nothing for OTHERS.
for generations the US "empire" REALLY has been living on WELFARE supported by the rest of the world through its manipulative money, corporate, military threat scams -- while making the rest of the world PAY for its empire existence
which americans have led themselves to believe is ALL DUE to
"american ingenuity and hardwork" AS IF the rest of the world was just a bunch of lazy bums...
when in fact - the USA would be NOWHERE near its power and prosperity
if it FIRST did NOT use intimidation, WARS, militarism and undermining of other economies (such as isolation and sanctions and overthrows) - to render much of the rest of the world subjugated to function WITHIN the Exploitative, Dehumanizing and Enslaveing System of the socalled
AMERICAN WAY.
the American Way - when stripped of its "glorious" myths -
is really just an EXTENSION in Time and Geography of what the USA REALLY BEGAN WITH:
Genocide of native indians, exploitation and rape of lands, enslavement of at least 20 million africans, and more millions in and from asia and south america , theft of territories, intrusions and meddling in the affairs and lives and interrelationships of other cultures.
the USA today is just a continuation of Dehumanization and Enslavement of People - starting from its "discovery" of "america".
CAPITALISM is its "BIG BOSS, our supernationalistic capitalism" -- General Smedley Butler, US Marines, 1933.
Reaganomics, in which we would all bask in the tricklin'-down benefits of good ol' unregulated crony corporate capitalism, has run its course - its predictable demise being the great economic implosion of 2008.
But there is hope - we've paid trillions for the same players to play the same game over yet again. We haven't imposed a single oversight on financial operators or re-introduced a single regulation to prevent ourselves from being raped again. We've watched as corporations looted pension contracts with the aid of a judicial system who deemed those contractual obligations too draining on the private sector, while the same judiciary has decreed the obscene bank bonuses, paid with our money, as invoilable because they are contractual.
This country should be ashamed of what it's become and what "values" it holds dear. We have become the scum of the earth.
"Fool me once, shame....can't fool me again" G.W. Bush
There is no apparent limit to how many times the people of the USA can be fooled by the same people selling the same snake oil.
There is a limit to how long this cycle of theft by having to be bailed out followed by theft by reckless, stupid, and heartless business practices leads inevitably to having to be bailed out again.
The USA may be rich, but not that rich. Our game plan seems to be to grow this monster greater each year as we speed ever faster toward running out of track.
Somebody somewhere is doing this for a reason. I have a very bad feeling about it.
THE USA system and model is like a Body Full of Boils and Cancerous growths inside and outside........
and as they continue to spread and grow some more -- the USA "model" dictates that one APPLIES MAKE-UP
to cover them up. ...and the USA model Dictates that one LOOKS at the MIRROR and say:
"WOW you look beaaaauuuuutiful, everyone oughta love ya , you beautiful American!!".
That's the problem exactly. A nation full of fat ladies in make-up, high-heels, spray tans and plastic hair wonders why it can't get any action. Fat old men with bad teeth on motorcycles thinking they are somehow impressing somebody.
The old Grim's fairy tales have more to them than the first glance tells. Old truth in those tales.
Mirror, mirror on the wall.
NIETZSCHE,
You've made a small error in the errant bushism, making him seem less psychotic:
INITIALLY the script was written for the well known phrase:
__“ Fool me once, shame on you,"
__" Fool me twice, shame on me "
But, Geo was _ u n a b l e _ to speak those words, and instead he said:
__“Fool me once, shame … shame on … you,”
followed by a long searching pause … , and then:
__“Fool me … can’t get fooled again!”
( see http://www.serendipity.li/wot/conover01.htm )
Mark Crispin Miller, author of The Bush Dyslexicon, continues
“What’s revealing about this is that Bush could not say, ‘Shame on me’ to save his life. That’s a completely alien idea to him. This is a guy who is absolutely proud of his own inflexibility and rectitude.”
Another example, Miller said, occurred early in Bush’s White House tenure when he said,
“I know how hard it is to put food on your family.”
According to Miller, “That wasn’t because he’s so stupid that he doesn’t know how to say, ‘Put food on your family’s table’ — it’s because he doesn’t care about people who can’t put food on the table.”
Miller told Whyte, “When he tries to talk about what this country stands for, or about democracy, he can’t do it.
_||_
Very insightful.
I had deciphered the one about food on the family, but I had never noticed that the personification of everything shameful about a fallible human being occupying the single most powerful office in the world was the rich little dry drunk who couldn't say 'shame' and 'me' in the same sentence.
He might as well never have left. I worked for, contributed to Obama's campaign. I voted for Obama. What is he now but a member of the elite ruling class who owes nothing to me or the thousands who contributed to his run, prayed for his victory, and hoped.
He's the most slippery one since Nixon. He knew we needed to hope. He knew we were desperate for hope. "HOPE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN" might as well have been "I'M NOT A CROOK".
Why don't we ALL have another drink. Victory Gin may soon be our only refuge.
de nada
Please see above, and realize that the insight needs desperately to be spread far and wide.
I understand the short term "solution" ( solvent ) of Victory Gin, and honestly believe that those long hidden ( criminally insane BTW ) are now being revealed increasingly to all of us with the eyes to see.
I am very optimistic about the ongoing REVEAL, as essentially it is up to everyone to choose more wisely -- they just need a little knowledge about the real problem, for the solution to become self-evident to EVERYONE ( even them ).
I suggest mandatory EEG scans of all military, politicians, CEO, and bosses -- as a start. Figuring out what to do with all of those sick people, will be a real boot-strapping issue for many years to come. It would also be quite useful for pre-nuptials ( for those woman wishing to avoid likely forms of abuse ).
FOR EXAMPLE: One scientific magazine's editor refused a submitted paper because of a series of associated EEG charts, because he knew that those charts DID NOT represent REAL ( nominal ) PEOPLE. What the editor didn't know, was that those EEGs did correctly and actually represent psychotic individuals … Oh Boy !
People's BS detectors are usually fairly accurate, as evolution has long encouraged facial recognition gestalts and oddly useful and honed gossiping skills, as a survival mechanisms to detect possible evil people hiding in our midst.
Although its often correct to assume the best about anyone we meet, the psychopaths are experts at sneaking beneath our radar screens, manipulating our own sense of pity for those "different" from us -- and being predominantly of superior intelligence, elite offspring ( inbreeding ), and charismatic -- they are usually on easy street from day one.
These are unrepentant unchangeable ( hard wired ) reptile-like individuals, when compared to the rest of humankind -- although some 12% are converts that condition themselves to fit into the mold of psychopaths ( and may therefore be able to reverse the programming ).
It is the 6 % totally shameless psychopaths that are the real bane of all of humankind, AND they really think that we should just ignore them and let them do their thing ( making us erroneously think that we are the problem and that original sin is VERY MUCH alive today in every man, woman and child )
_||_
I enjoyed the analysis Abundant Luv. Thanks.
de nada
The generality of one being known by "the fruits of their tree" applies to both the shrub_in_thief and myself.
PONEROLOGY ( the scientific study of psychotics in gov't ) is far too important for humanity's survival to be left only to the "experts."
The more I learn, the more shocked I become to discover that essentially we are surrounded by a "sub-species" of humanity ( although those in the elite wouldn't see themselves as SUB to anything .
The elite are significantly over-represented by those w/o conscience ( psychopaths ), as that allows for maximum corporate profit ( through warmongering ). They exist primarily from their positions of power and influence ( a "natural" match ), and have the most excellent protective camouflage that makes us think that all of the easily noticed widespread evil is generally a result of a widespread immorality issue for ALL of humanity.
The weight of the world's evil is hardly carried upon the backs of Eve's daughters, nor Adam's sons -- evil is a choice in every moment, which some people ( ~ 6 to 18% of general population ) as psychopaths really DO NOT have a choice about ( they're mentally deranged and need our help, to isolate them from harming us ).
If humankind were able to discover ( EEGs show this ) and isolate those that are essentially "son's of snakes" ( sorry to disparage the sinuous crawlers, it's the bible's allegory ), I suspect that 99 % of evil would be controlled. For example, during the Savings and Loan Bubble, it was determined that only 10% of CEOs acted fraudulently ( 9 out of 10 used their conscience and moral compasses to not go criminal ).
Evil is about systematically ORGANIZED errant practices and bad choices that assault people's rights and cause un-ending suffering and death throughout the world, as justified for mere profit to a few pathetic criminals ( not even all of the elite ).
Their are now thousands of books and articles about these psychopaths ( see "Snakes in Suits" ), most recently at:
PONEROLOGY.COM
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/191229-Truth-to-Power-Psychopaths-Rule-Our-World
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/191213-Word-gets-around-Twilight-and-the-trick-of-the-psychopaths
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/191308-The-state-is-a-predator-and-we-are-its-prey
BTW, the last time I tried to propagate this information on CD, I soon needed a new scn name and I.P address, and many unrelated posting were purg♂d.
_||_
I wholeheartedly agree. Whenever someone says that so and so is rich, I am much more attentive to character flaws and possible evil traits. The media likes to flip reality on its' head and tend to show poorer people as the ones you assume to be evil or common criminals. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Thanks for your wise comments.
De nada.
For me, this is the "Holy Grail" issue of missing knowledge, that once found will put humankind back on the incremental evolutionary path to end ALL poverty, famine, war and suffering.
Do a GOOGLE search for "The VENUS project" ( 2nd half part of Zeitgeist II addendum video), which foresees an Earth of balanced resource driven economy ( not debt/profit driven ) where almost all would no longer need to work a "job" due to technological solutions freeing more and more time ( for creative & humane pursuits ).
How appropriate that the ICONIC solution for Sioux Rose's MARS RULES ( & drools ) is THE VENUS PROJECT.
I wish wholeheartedly, that this viral meme ( thought form ) were a form of change that propagated person to person, even faster than they want us to think that pigs can fly(u).
_||_
One more link that might prove useful to those not familiar with the information genre ---- www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm --- this one is the baseline, the starting place for understanding psychopathy and Ponerology.
Maybe for Mark, the US economic system has been discredited only recently. For us Marxists, we've known this for a long long time now. :-) But it is good to see others finally realizing it also.
you know what is ironic?
there is that famous movie -- INDEPENDENCE DAY
showing the USA LEADING the fight for freedom from the Aliens that were going to enslave and consume the earth until they've sucked everything out of it - and then go back to their huge spaceship which is their entire civilization -- and they move on to the next planet to suck life out of? and they use their superior technology to do ONLY THAT?
the irony is :
instead of being the :leader of freedom as the USA loves to intone about itself........
IT IS ACTUALLY like THAT civilization moving in a spaceship - from culture to culture, country to country, region to region..
and its "superior civilization" consists of its technology for wars, both economic and military , and its myths of the "Right" to rule and consume everyone else -
SUCKING THE LIFE OUT OF ALL OF THEM.....
We don't have that much power--to suck the life out of other cultures. You blame the United States for these heinous crimes, but the real problem comes from the human species, not our particular culture.
Take China, for example. Here you have a society willing to pollute water and air, turn its back on the poor, be unresponsive to governmental abuse--and you think the United States is responsible for this? You have little knowledge of Chinese history. For dynasty after dynasty it has always been the same: exalt the rich and powerful, all at the expense of the peasants.
You think US influence is pernicious--just wait until the Chinese or, God forbid, the Russians take control. Then the US drone attacks over Pakistan will seem like assaults of mosquitoes. Which is not to say we should continue what we are doing. It is just that you cannot blame all that goes wrong in the world on the United States.
By the same token we shoudln't puff ourselves up, prattling about exceptionalism and the city on the hill and all that other buffonery about liberating the poor suffering masses bowing to kiss our savior feet.
I sometimes think that U.S. self-congratulatory hypocrisy and exceptionalist attitudes actually cause as much global revulsion as its substantive actions -- at least among those who aren't direct targets of those actions.
The crude "bull in a china shop" interventions in other people's affairs might be somewhat more tolerable if the bull weren't quite so ostentatiously proud of its destructive behavior.
drosera August 14th, 2009 1:10 pm.........The United States is a virus upon this earth. And, yes, we do have the power to suck the life out of other cultures and have done it time and time again....starting with our own indigenous peoples.
China knew nothing of autism until we exported our mercury laden vaccines.
The list is endless....Read Naomi Klein or Perkins or even Chomsky.
USA-touters NEVER read anything.
You are wasting your breath.
Yep, the the West gave us capitalism, materialism, and modern warfare and, oh, I forgot, the Enlightenment, Science, and--what was it?--Democracy. Some of those cultures that "had the life sucked out of them" received something far better than they ever gave up and if they are honest, will admit the truth.
You forgot to mention some British imperial contributions like providing railroads and other Victorian Age "benefits" of the Industrial Revolution to those ingrates in India, Africa and elsewhere. The "white man's burden" truly is enormous and unceasing. How could the ignorant Chinese or the totally uneducated Arabs and Persians ever have survived without western enlightenment and science?
More to the point, however, the gift giving isn't the problem. It's the gift retraction that seems to irritate some people for some strange reason.
and what HAS "western democracy" actually accomplished?
the CLASS warfare continues - does it not? the "democracy" has produced the "emancipation" of the CORPORATE PERSONHOOD to ravage the planet, has it not?
"technology" has brought us the ATOMIC BOMB and WMD's has it not? it has also brought the "democracy" of "capitalism" that has caused MALDISTRIBUTION of resources , has it not?
and for that matter - did you know that where Human Rights - as supposedly the greatest reason for democracy - did NOT really start with the Greeks or the west?
it started in PERSIA thousands of years ago..etched in stone
declaring Human rights - which today stands in the lobby of the United Nations.
one of its principles, you might be surprised was , declared by the king of persia :
That so long as nations no longer tried to attack persia and use her for their purposes -- the countries persia conquered to defend itself from their constant raids -
were "to be given the absolute right to decide whether they wish to remain under persian rule or become independent again..."
and if to remain under persian rule -- "that their rights to their religions and gods, and self-governance and taxation are theirs alone....but that the persian king would ensure that the labor of people is respected and theft of properties be condemned".
that's NOT something the ":democracies" you intone really hav e been practicing , u know.
as for science and technology advancement :
all empires and kingdoms always bragged about it .
today is no different.
the west -- as far as "democracy" or "freedom" is concerned IS A JOHNNY COME LATELY in the human history scheme of things.
the "enlightenment" of course is RELATIVE to the DARK periods IN EUROPE -- but promoted by WESTERN thinking as "enlightenmnent for the WHOLE world".
it would be nice if that were corrected
it would ALSO be nice if that enlightenmnent PREVENTED SLAVERY , EXPLOITATION, COLONIALISM across the seas.........
after all even the enlightenment ITSELF was just a branch of OLDER thinking gathered FROM the EAST.
as for SCIENCE and technology from it that the west likes to brag about
WHERE would THAT science and technology BE - twisted as it is BY the ":Enlightened west" through WMDs and global wars (TWICE in west related and instigated ones) -
IF the Ancient EASTERNERS such as INDIANS did NOT first DISCOVER the concept of ZERO ? which found its way through Arab lands and then NORTH to Greece and THEN to the west?.
the WEST would LIKELY still be BARBARIANS!
as an old Indian man told a British man looking down upon the "backward india" :
"we were here long before you were even TRIBES in the west....we shall still be here , long after your empires are no more".
The East and West each have their pluses and minuses. Neither side is perfect. Try mixing the two or at least take the best of both sides. Blaming one side or the other won't help.
i am very sorry to correct you -- part of my upbringing is study of ASIAN HISTORY dear one. including the dynasties of china, the ming, yan, han, etc. empires WITHIN the present confines of china . you ALSO don't seem to understand that this is part of what IS ESSENTIALLY a SOCIALIST CULTURE of china from eons ago -- you WOULDN'T undrstand THAT unless you WERE asian and studied asian history as well.
you might also BEGIN to understand that BEFORE the western imperial forays into asia - the dynastic cultures of china were largely benevolent - as opposed to the WESTERN POINT OF VIEW and propaganda painting china as "oppressive".
again -- that is a subject matter that is difficult for westernview people to understand.
and YES - it is true that the UNITED STATES WAS responsible - as much as Britain, and the Dutch and russians and belgians and french were
late in the 19century -
for GANGING UP on china - when china's LAST dynasty (150 years old) became too corrupt and weak and allowed the conquest of their land as their forefathers and mothers DID NOT allow.
do you realize that the REASON china embarked on nationalist revolts were NOT because of the dynastic culture which had existed and was considered NATURAL to the chinese philosophy centered around confucianism and taoism and the s0-called "yin-yang" concepts - but WESTERN IMPERIALISM that was led by england and the united states?
the result was TWO factions of nationalists - the right wing and the left wing...the right wing started to assassinated left-wing leaders and members and ended up to become the
faction that is now in TAIWAN -
and the rest became the communist party.
nevertheless BOTH were reactions to US LED IMPERIALISM in lands it doesn't belong TO!
would you like to read how GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER, US MARINES in the 1910's to 1930's
was the "high class muscle man for our foreign policy of gathering as much of the world's resources unto ourselves at the expense of others...and our WAR and MONEY RACKETS for our Big Oil, Big Banks, Big Finance, Big Corporations....you wanted to make CHINA SAFE so OUR big OIL can run unmolested? and get cheap labor? i'd do it for you". ?
did you KNOW that the USA instigated bombing raids using US servicement as "terrorists" and "suicide bombers" IN TRIPOLI africa to make sure its SLAVE TRADE WAS SAFE from "pirates" over there thousands of miles away where it had NO BUSINESS poking its nose in their affairs to enrich ITS coffers in the 18 century?
which COUNTRY did you THINK unloaded chemical bombs and all kinds of munitions -- far more than the ENTIRE second world war - over INDOCHINA just in order to "save face" in its DEFEAT from vietnam because the vietnamese SIMPLY WANTED TO BE LEFT ALONE as their own country? it ain't CANADA, or brazil or venezuela or congo or haiti , u know......
which country did you think CAUSED untold suffering - still having its effect TODAY in BHOPAL INDIA from CORPORATE MALFEASANCE by POISONING their waters to make BATTERIES by exploiting their CULTURE for CHEAP LABOR?.....it ain't CHINA nor north korea , u know.....
which COUNTRY did you THINK just had a corporation of BIG OIL, EXXON MOBIL, LOSE a court case of many years
to an african man and his tribe - after decades of TERRORIZING the natives in order to extract their OFF_SHORE OIL and then poisoning THEIR waters and jungles with refineries?.....it ain't madagascar nor new guinea, u know.....
which country did you THINK Supported and/or installed BRUTAL rightwing regimes ALL OVER SOUTH AMERICA to IMPOVERISH their citizens and extract their resources and STEAL their lands with legal mumbo-jumbo ......or install the BRUTAL dictatorships of the SHAH of IRAN or the Philippines or -- recently -- GEORGIA of shakaashvili - and other nations?
it ain't taiwan nor hongkong, nor ecuador, u know.....
which country did you THINK CAUSED , through its "prescriptions" of "free market and privatization"
THE SWIFT COLLAPSE of the ENTIRE economy of ICELAND in 2008, and of ESTONIA and LATVIA?
it ain't CHINA nor russia nor turkey , nor syria, u know.....
it's got a name though:
U S A .
all the way from STEALING LAND from NATIVE INDIANS, ENSLAVING over 20 million africans , and millions more OTHER citizens in THEIR own countries through corporate malfeasance and militarism
ALL THE WAY TO
today - in honduras, and other countries......
Teddy,
Your education in Asian studies is suspect if you think the various dynasties in China were benevolent towards the peasants.
Your recitation of the sins of the United States goes on and on--and some of them are true. All I am saying is--the present failed capitalist system does not belong to one country. It belongs to many. The United States does not have the power to control other people's thinking in the manner you claim. No country does.
You divide up the world into two camps: the US and its allies--the evil side, and the rest of the world including native peoples, the good side. So simplistic. We are not as bad as you make out and they are not as good. Native peoples--lets take American Indians of the Northeast as an example, since I know some history of some of the tribes. Life for them involved considerable warfare before white settlement. It was not all hunting and gathering and farming. They did lousy things to each other and they did not learn them from white men. There are aspects of their culture--the position of women for example--that were unhealthy and unfair. Good riddance to them. If white culture helped them disappear, so much the better.
Try to get out of your dualistic mode of thinking. You will see the world in a clearer light.
Teddy knows what he is talking about. I disagree with your assumption that he is not an Asian scholar. As to the natives in North America, I suggest you read the book "1392". It's describes the way things were here before we Europeans came. So they failed to "learn" from the whites and so they deserved to be decimated? So might makes right, eh? You will live to regret that statement. For now, continue in your techno weenie superior attitude about the "lowly savages" that we europeans came to civilize. You will soon be quite surprized.
About Asian history: in my training (B.A. University of Michigan, Far Eastern Languages and Literature), I do not remember my professors asserting early Chinese dynasties were "essentially socialistic" as was said here. I need to have a reference by a reputable scholar that supports that position.
As for your comments about Native Americans: I did not say I agreed with European policies towards the Indians. I only said that Indian cultures were far from perfect in their governance, treatment of women, practices of warfare, and more. They didn't "deserve" anything from whites. I was only expressing my disagreement that the influence of the West has always been uniformly evil and that existing (non-Native) cultures have always been innocent, pure, and good. That is a product of dualistic thinking and does not help us understand the past or the present.
AGG: The book is actually "1491" by Charles Mann, and it is definitely worth reading.
You are right. I had the date wrong. I confused it with something I read recently about Chinese expeditions before the European ones.
I did not claim I am scholarly or knowledgeable enough to be masterful about asian culture and history. yet you make your accusation about my "suspect knowledge" of it through an insinuation that "suspect knowledge" of this culture is somehow based on my assuming expertise on it.
but let ME ask you:
if my knowledge of it is somehow suspect -- what are WE to take YOURS? because you are discussing facts of history that anyone that studies world, human, social history wherein cultures commit atrocities also -- you somehow gain authority to say that MY discussion of things I know about asian history is suspect?
that dynastic cultures in china practiced what you point out were "oppressive " towards peasants - is based on WHAT? how much of THAT is based on your OPINION of the structure of chinese culture that somehow has allowed china to exist as in fact the most successfully prosperous and - comparative to the MERE 500 years of modern european history - generally been far less violent or atrocious in ALL of its 6,000 year continuity -- PERHAPS because the chinese culture , mentality allows the existence of "dynastic rule" based on their confucian state which is highly central to it
as would be the s0-called "democracy" of the west?
I mentioned something:
the INHERENTLY SOCIALIST nature of chinese culture (one may refer to it in writings by an asiatimesonline writer - Henry CK Liu)
which alien though THAT may be to western thinking whose ideas of "rulers" based on kingships is QUITE different from that which is based on what chinese consider as a NATURAL matter - again, because this is largely based on a common acceptance of it through their belief in confucianism (if you were asian, regardless of what your politics is, you WOULD understand how CENTRAL this is to the chinese culture) - that
"rulership" in chinese culture carries with it a VERY real sense of obligation and responsibility towards the general welfare - great as the concentration of power is.
even to the point of being "xenophobic".
I can go on -- but no time right now. I will simply say that
being asian that was brought up with about equal measure of acceptance of BOTH western "lifestyle" and thinking as well as inherently also asian
and studying BOTH their world cultures and history (since my particular interest was in arts, society and music of both spheres which NATURALLY would imbibe social, cultural and political histories - ex: "western thinking, the greek classics and mythologies in the music of the west, etc.-- china's musical system, indonesia's, indian raga, tala, etc.)
I would say that without having to be "scholarly" as might please you -- i
rather have the view of BOTH worlds, both from the inside and outside of each.
i have lived half my life in asia , growing up, and the other half in the west...with constant awareneness of their "balancing acts".
I do not think you are entirely correct in YOUR own conditioned responses towards what you call my "suspect" knowledge of these matters.
Thanks for that Teddy....
I want to read more Asian Histories and I would like to understand the Nationalist struggles of China from before 1912 and afterward.
I haven't gotten that far in my historical education yet.
I'm focusing on the American Historical period from the Revolutionary Period on up through today.
It's a reaction to listening to the American Political Machine and trying to weigh that against what the original Founding Fathers really did want for our country.
This modern rhetoric from our political leaders doesn't match the version of what Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, or even Abraham Lincoln would have wanted.
I have read General Smedley Butler's book, "War Is A Racket", I heard it mentioned on this same CD community last year and went out and found a copy of it. "Old Gimlet Eye", was quite a warrior.
The only soldier, living or dead, to ever be awarded the National Medal of Honor, twice.
He was also the most outspoken critic of the U.S.Army and because of those statements he was forced to retire.
He took to lecturing, and used his words to the Great Depression era version of our own liberal meeting house about just who the American Military Machine was. As you already mentioned our American business owners did act and still act deplorably.
Funny story.
Try this yourself.
Buy a copy of General Butlers book "War Is A Racket" and try showing this to any currently serving US soldier or veteran and guage their response.
True fact, everyone of them knows even today who General Butler was.
It must be a training exercise to get that kind of retention.
The reaction that I saw was that not one of these soldiers will say that they understand the logic that General Butler describes, point by point, to demonstrate the vice of the US Army and it's suppliers.
I haven't served in the armed Services, so I apologize to any present or past serving personnel. I'm only stating the truth of this fact to our little community here.
you are an astute cinemaphile
I like it *****
None of this matters. They will still peddle the big lie starting with we are making the world safe for Democracy.
Well, y'all love capitalism.
The Guardian mistakenly credits the author Mark Weisbrot with the European version of the "Centre for Economic and Policy Research". This is not the American version to which Mr. Weisbrot is a co-director.
Probably a simple typo.
The difference is huge in intent though because the European "Centre for Economic and Policy Research" is a research organization that invites contributions from world class economists like Paul Krugman and not the Washington D.C. based "Center for Economic and Policy Research", a private organization with Mr. Weisbrot and Dean Baker listed as Co-directors.
Of course you probably already know that this group, in Washington, published a book before the Bush Administration's attempt to "save" the Social Security crisis. the groups 1999 publication is "Social Security: The Phony Crisis".
I prefer to see the glass as half-full:
We're #1 in Denial of Actual Facts;
We're #1 in Obesity;
We're #1 in Inmates and Ex-Cons;
We're #1 in Innocents Killed/Wounded During Illegal Invasions;
And, of course, We're #1 in Weapons Sales!!!
Just the women now: We're #1! We're #1! We're #1!
Now if ONLY we could get all the illegal aliens to read and believe this before they risk their lives to get here.
If the US sucks sooo bad, could at least some of you losers find asylum somewhere else?
This is our country, and it is our duty to fix it, not seek asylum as you so glibly suggest.
You sound like a conservative asshole, and butt-hurt.
there is an easy answer to that kind of rhetoric calling "illegal" immigrants to the USA as "losers"
....
COULD THE USA PLEASE go and FIND ANOTHER PLANET to exploit and not the countries on earth - like those from south america where its rightwing corporate agenda for generations forced citizens of THOSE countries out of their livelihoods -- FORCING THEM TO GO NORTH to USA
where the EXPLOITATION of their countries EMANATES like putrid poison?.
maybe if the USA can go and find SOME planet somewhere that "winner" americans can EXPLOIT to their hearts' content and LEAVE THE PLANET EARTH ALONE.......
the LAND that the USA OCCUPIES and REALLY JUST STOLE from native indians and mexicans
would actually be populated by NATIVE AMERICANS - from north and south america to whom they REALLY BELONGED......
after all -- the south americans - most of whom probably make up the "illegals" crossing the border from the south BECAUSE OF GENERATIONS of US corporate exploitation and control - were in the americas LONG before ANY white man ever came around
and if they DO go NORTH to the USA -- why
they are MERELY RECLAIMING SOME of what was STOLEN FROM THEM anyway!!
including a means of having a livelihood........
would the USA PLEASE at least ADMIT that if there is any nation that should claim ILLEGALITY as to ITS existence and actions
it is NONE OTHER THAN THE US of A?
after all -- in addition to ILLEGALLY and CRIMINALLY STEALING LAND from native indians and enslaving so many millions to build its "wonderful" industries and banks and corporations --
the USA was "established" BY -- WHITE EUROPEAN descendants of LOSERS from europe anyway......u know -- those kind that were the REJECTS of their old societies and so found another LAND across the seas to STEAL from NATIVE INDIANS
and south americans?.......
goodness -- some USA'ns really DO have a very POOR idea of their own history and who's REALLY BEEN the real ILLEGALS!
it ain't the south americans or latinos from south america crossing the border....
it's the NATION UP NORTH that sets up "laws" and "rules" to protect ITS ILLEGALITY as a NATION BUILT ON THEFT of land, resources and livelihood from OTHERS for many many generations!
which country did you THINK was BEHIND fomenting the WAR INITIATED by the country GEORGIA - led by ITS rightwing DICTATOR shakaashvili - against russian ETHNICS in provinces of Abkhazia and South ossetia whicn SINCE 1990 declared THEY wanted to be UNDER Russian influance and NOT georgia with whom they have DIFFERENCES since centuries ago? it wasn't
military excercise, munitions, support, and "advice" from mongolia or south korea, u know.......
which country did you think has been INSIDE the BORDERS of a sovereign country it ONCE installed and supported a RIGHTWING BRUTAL DICTATOR to serve US corporate interests at the expense of the natives -- and tries to "regime change" INSIDE IRAN?
how would YOU and americans LIKE IT if iran or china or russia TRIED TO "make regime change" and INSTALL "russian, chinese, iranian" cultures and world views INSIDE and UPON americans?
as PATRICK J BUCHANAN, the archconservative, for ONCE< says CORRECTLY:
"we should get out of this business of world empire...and get out of THOSE lands...before THEY kick US out!!....we didn't LIKE it when the USSR was in OUR neighborhood of cuba years ago.........so..........what are WE doing in RUSSIA's backyard?"
you can apply that GLOBALLY .
americans DON"T LIKE "illegal aliens" or "suckers coming to the USA?"
they are THERE to TAKE what the USA has TAKEN FROM THEM generations long!
if americans don't LIKE that -- americans should STOP warmongering and occupying the WORLD! and stop stickign their noses where they don't belong!
if they don't want "aliens" "taking advantage of america"
america should FIRST NEVER HAVE started TAKING ADVANTAGE of the rest of the world.
if there are certain "fruits" that americans DON'T LIKE the TASTE of...........
you are only harvesting the crops you yourselves have PLANTED long ago....with the EMPIRE.
loser= all you schmucks who can't stand the USA.
well -- of course there are "USA'ans" that can't stand CRITICISM and TRUTH about the dastardly nature of much of the USA behind the FACADE of "lawfulness" and "righteousness" and "morality" and above all
CHRISTIANITY and CIVILIZATION
even if it's TRUE.
they can';t STAND to ADMIT that Committing GENOCIDE against native indians to STEAL THEIR LAND is a MONSTROUS crime and sinful....and they can't stand to admit that THEY , claiming their are "upstanding americans" are CONNIVING IN COVERING UP the
STINK of the USA that GOD HIMSELF -whatever or whoever he IS -
would FAINT in heaven from the stink!
as Mahatma gandhi said...when being asked by some Time Reporter EAGER to elicit glowing comments about the "greatness of the USA":
"I Don't LIKE your christians -- they are so ......UNCHRISTLIKE"......
but of course - since he KNEW what was the TRUE history and nature of the USA.........
that of GENOCIDE of native indians, ENSLAVEMENT of millions of africans - to build its "Shining city on the hill" from which to embark on a planetary Conquest
known TODAY in PENTAGON CIRCLES as "full spectrum dominance"
in order to spread - what general smedley butler, US marines, 1933 -- REVEALED as
"OUR NATION OF MONEY AND WAR RACKETEERS and PREDATORS".........
"the trouble with US americans is: when our DOLLAR can't buy more than 6 % of its value at home.......we GET UNEASY and we go abroad so it can buy 100% more ..and where the Dollar goes, our flag follows, where the flag goes, our ARMY follows..a spent 30 years serving our BIG BOSS, our supernationalistic capitalism to make the world safe for it and our CULTURAL and ECONOMIC ASSAULT, and even if i knew , i suspended MY conscience...but I will have NOTHING more to do with it..it is EVIL"
YOU are going to claim you are "patriotic?"
you are NOTHING compared with General Smedley Butler, US marines, with all his MEDALS SPREADING CAPITALISM and the USA's Economic and cultural assault
"in THREE continents....al capone had nothing on me...his RACKET was only in chicago and a few other cities ...>MINE was in THREE continents for our big banks, big corporations , big finance and our BIG BOSS... our supernationalistic capitalism"........
and YET - HE had the GUTS to ADMIT IT at the end.......and say
"IT IS EVIL".
so there you go!!!
Thanks
I really appreciate it.