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Barack Obama, Torture Enabler
America is a nation of laws--laws enforced by Spain.
John Yoo, Jay Bybee, David Addington, Alberto Gonzales, William Haynes and Douglas Feith wrote, authorized and promulgated the Justice Department "torture memos" that the Bush Administration used for legal cover. After World War II, German lawyers for the Ministry of Justice went to prison for similar actions.
We've known about Yoo et al.'s crimes for years. Yet--unlike their victims--they're free as birds, fluttering around, writing op/ed columns...and teaching. At law school!
Obama has failed to match changes of tone with changes in substance on the issue of Bush's war crimes. "We need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards," he answered when asked whether he would investigate America's worst human rights abuses since World War II. Indeed, there's no evidence that Obama's Justice Department plans to lift a finger to hold Bush or his henchmen accountable.
"They should arrest Obama for trying to impersonate a President," one wag commented on The San Francisco Chronicle's website.
Fortunately for those who care about U.S. law, there are Spanish prosecutors willing to do their job. Baltasar Garzón, the crusading prosecutor who went after General Augusto Pinochet in the '90s, will likely subpoena the Dirty Half Dozen within the next few weeks. "It would have been impossible to structure a legal framework that supported what happened [in Guantánamo]" without Gonzales and his pals," argues the criminal complaint filed in Madrid.
When the six miscreants ignore their court dates (as they surely will), Spain will issue international arrest warrants enforceable in the 25 countries that are party to European extradition treaties. All hail King Juan Carlos I!
Which brings us to a leaked report by the Red Cross, famous for its traditional reticence to confront governments. Which means that physicians are enjoined to do no harm. Doctors are prohibited by their ethical code of conduct from attending, much less participating in, torture. (What does this have to do with Bush's lawyers? Hold on. I'm getting there.)
The Red Cross found that CIA doctors, nurses and/or paramedics "monitored prisoners undergoing waterboarding, apparently to make sure they did not drown. Medical workers were also present when guards confined prisoners in small boxes, shackled their arms to the ceiling, kept them in frigid cells and slammed them repeatedly into walls," reports The New York Times.
"Even if the medical worker's intentions had been to prevent death or permanent injury," the report said, they would have violated medical ethics. But they weren't there to protect anyone but the CIA. They even "condoned and participated in ill treatment....[giving] instructions to interrogators to continue, to adjust or to stop particular methods." Charming.
Since 1945, at least 70 doctors around the world have been prosecuted for participating in torture. But not Bush's CIA torture facilitators. Not by this president. Asked to comment on the Red Cross report, a spokesman for CIA director Leon Panetta replied that Panetta "has stated repeatedly that no one who took actions based on legal guidance from the Department of Justice at the time should be investigated, let alone punished." (There's the lawyer connection.)
Which is similar to what Obama said about the torturers: "At the CIA, you've got extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe. I don't want them to suddenly feel like they've got to spend all their time looking over their shoulders and lawyering up." Don't you just hate being micromanaged when you're torturing people?
Ah, the great shell game of American justice. You can't prosecute the torturers because their lawyers advised them that torture was OK. You can't prosecute the lawyers because all they did was theorize--they didn't torture anyone. You can't prosecute the president and vice president who ordered the torture because they have "executive privilege" and, anyway, who would put a head of state on trial? What is this, Peru?
What's the flip side of a victimless crime? A perpless crime?
It's a neat circle, or would be if it fit, but drink some coffee and let the caffeine do its thing and it soon becomes apparent that it doesn't come close. The trouble for the Bushies, and now for Obama--they're his torturers now--is that lawyers are bound by a higher code than following orders.
Yoo, Bybee, Addington, Gonzales, Haynes and Feith were asked by the White House to come up with legal cover for what they knew or ought to have known were illegal acts under U.S. law, international law, and treaties including the Geneva Conventions (which were ratified by the U.S. and therefore hold the force of U.S. law). Since they don't deny what they did--indeed, they continue to justify it--their presumed defense if they wound up on trial in Europe would be that they were just following orders.
However, the decision in the 1948 trials of German attorneys immortalized in the fictionalized film "Judgment at Nuremberg" makes clear that a lawyer's duty is to the law--not his government. And not just his own country's law--international law.
The Nuremberg tribunal acknowledged that Nazi Germany was an absolute dictatorship in which everyone answered to Adolf Hitler and could be shot for disobeying. Nevertheless, the court ruled, "there were [German] restrictions for Hitler under international law." Despite his total legal authority within Germany, Hitler "could issue orders [that violated] international law." Obeying a direct order from Hitler, in other words, was illegal if it violated international law. And German lawyers went to prison for doing just that.
The six lawyers about to face charges in Spain didn't have to worry about Nazi firing squads. They were rank opportunists trying to advance their careers in an Administration that viewed laws as quaint, inconvenient obstacles. Here's how not scared they are: Feith recently penned an op/ed in The Wall Street Journal daring--double-daring--Obama's Justice Department to go after him.
"If President Barack Obama and the prosecutors see a crime to be prosecuted, they can act," Feith wrote.
One can only hope. In the meantime, we'll always have Spain.
- Posted in
69 Comments so far
Show AllThank God that there is a country in the western world that has the courage and ethical integrity to pursue justice in this most grave of criminal activity. What a shame that Obama and Holder have forfeited justice to protect the whole gang of Bush/Cheney criminals who committed many crimes against humanity and war crimes for which they received fortunes and continue to through speeches, teaching positions, and through their shares in the companies that won no bid contracts to participate in the illegal war that these criminals instigated. And now the same elite are committing another crime against humanity in the theft of the collective wealth and we are twiddling our thumbs and cheering Obama on with this corporate heist and destruction of democracy and the middle class! No wonder the Islamic world and many other countries see us in the bad light that we have cast ourselves in!!!!! Go get them, Spain, and when your done with these lawyers go after the arch criminals, Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc. etc. until the whole criminal cabal have ben prosecuted and punished for their horrendous crimes against humanity!!! Bring JUSTICE for all the victims and humanity!!!
I totally agree with you RisingDawn, and with Ted Rall.
Obama is a facilitator of criminal actions, just as Pelosi is.
I am grateful for everyone who helped get obama elected
but are you all so naive to believe that he has a mask and a cape and can come in like a super hero and change everything
if he got bogged down in "prosecuting" bush administration officials he will completely split the country and not be able to accomplish anything
so for all you holier than thoughs out there
be honest
how many of your, right after 911, also thought torture was a good idea, and ridiculed those who were against it???
obama is a decent man who is trying to get some positive things done, he is the complete opposite of bush and cheney,
not matter what he gets done he will not be able to please "all the people, all the time"
he needs support, not "triping"
Obama became president on January 20th. On the 21st he became a war criminal like Bush because because he failed to immediately halt further illegal war practices. So he stated that he would stop, in a year or so time, the most egregious practices but vowed to increase troops in Afghanistan.
And at the same same he stated that he was going to obstruct any investigation into war crimes by Bush. Why? Cause many democrats are complicit as well.
We don't need another war president that responds to protecting corporate interests as his first and foremost concern.
This was all evident during his campaign. There were other viable candidates to chose from who would have represented a real choice for peace and justice.
Who is going to be Billy Budd?
If someone, tried to arrest any of the perp's, they would be arrested and tried and convicted by a jury of their peers.
Why?
Because the jury would agree that crime should not be tolerated even if the action is justified on conscience. Cognitive dissonance would prevent them from thinking that justice would be served only if the state tried itself and agents.
In other words, no one is going to stick their neck out for the justice because the population will not support justice.
I am grateful for everyone who helped get obama elected
but are you all so naive to believe that he has a mask and a cape and can come in like a super hero and change everything
if he got bogged down in "prosecuting" bush administration officials he will completely split the country and not be able to accomplish anything
so for all you holier than thoughs out there
be honest
how many of your, right after 911, also thought torture was a good idea, and ridiculed those who were against it???
obama is a decent man who is trying to get some positive things done, he is the complete opposite of bush and cheney,
not matter what he gets done he will not be able to please "all the people, all the time"
he needs support, not "triping"
truth is that every american president that you could think of is guilty of crimes against humanity
clinton (bubba) and gore - throw in albright and cohen - for bombing the hell out of yugoslavia, using the mujahaden from afghanistan as fighters, if that don't beat all
nixon for vietnam and cambodia and chile
reagan for nicauraugua
bush daddy for saddamm round one - throw in rumsfeld, cheney, powell
w for a great list of reasons - let's just name iraq
jimmy carter and zbig for the first afghan war
obama is well on his way to being brother number one on this list - just wait and see
he is a nwo shill - a favorite of kissinger - and mark my words - what he is planning for the united states ranks right up there with the best of them
obama will oversee the end of the republic
once all the c$$h has been transferred to the bankers we will see an austerity program more severe than anyone can envision right now
states will be bankrupt, as will the federal government
pensions will be raided, medicaid, social security
we will have a vassal state to live in with well populated fema prisons
obama is no lefty - let's out that to rest - as a lefty i reject this judas goat and encourage all to rethink their obama paradigm - research his history
after bush he seems more civilized but as they say about books - never judge one by the cover
obama is attacking workers and he is giving all the cash to wall street - his biggest backers and the controllers of the united states
like any pulp detective story - just follow the money
google "the obama deception" and learn about the man
turn of the tv and go for a walk
while strolling, ask yourself what you are going to do when the the proverbial shit from the bail out hits the fan
think that one over hard
Obama was set up. A pretty Leo face just like Bill C. The sacrificial lamb. The ultimate racial intrigue. Hunter Thompson's perfect rube.
michael jordan
http://sites.google.com/site/apolloguide/
OMG, we are not a nation of laws. We are a nation of lawbreakers that use law to cover, conceal and justify. This is the number one terrorist country in the world. Now just remember, "they hate us because of our freedom".
"Change", "Hope", "Yes We Can".
Fools.
"And just like Bill Clinton, the "Democrat" who spent the last 8 years ostentatiously sucking up to the Bush family?"
What is this sh*t?
I admit I liked Obama, but every time he said, "vote for me and we'll change the world", I got extremely uncomfortable. I ended up NOT voting for him. However, I really think our problem is not the guy in office. We need to stop shopping, live frugally and stop the corporations from buying our politicians. It's our only chance. All these foreign bases and wars have nothing to do with national security and EVERYTHING to do with a pack of corporate bottom lines. Do you buy stock in "defense" contractor corporations? You are complicit. Do you know who they are? You should. Ignorance breeds dictatorship. Wake the fuck up!
BHO is nothing more than a MIC, travesty and if any of you posters that still are naive enough to think otherwise; perhaps you should post on Drudge from now on instead of showing your ignorance on CD!
Ted Rall's description of the "great shell game of American justice" with its neat circular reasoning process - "You can't prosecute the torturers because their lawyers advised them torture was OK. You can't prosecute the lawyers because all they did was theorize" - is a colorful, concise summary of the torturers' legal case, but it has several obvious fatal flaws.
First, if a Mafia don's lawyer writes the Godfather a fancy letter, solemly opining that hiring a hit man to kill a rival Mafiosi is by some bizarre rationale considered not to be murder but rather to be lawful, reliance upon such self-serving legalism in order to whack somebody is a very slender reed to lean upon in a court of law.
Yes, there is a narrow, recognized defense to criminal prosecution known as reliance upon advice of legal counsel. But that reliance must be reasonable, and the underlying advice itself must be reasonable. When former Attorney General Mike Mukasey told the Senate at his confirmation hearing that he did not know whether waterboarding constituted torture or not, the wannabe waterboarders proceed at their own peril.
Second, the defense of reliance upon advice of counsel most commonly arises when the legal advice is coming from the prosecution side of the equation, not from a lawyer selected and paid by the advisee. In the Mafia hit example, there is no reason why both the Godfather and his attorney enabler shouldn't both be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. Alternatively, the lawyer could be prosecuted as an aider and abettor in the homicide.
Accountants and book keepers, for instance, quite frequently (and quite properly) get prosecuted for tax evasion or fraud right alongside actual tax cheat. For the licensed professional purveyor of professional advice, the standard is higher, not lower.
What the Bush/Cheney White House did was consciously cut the career professionals at the Department of Justice, JAG, the State Department, and the Office of Legal Counsel out of the decision making process on the whole torture/interrogation issue. Most experienced government attorneys having any familiarity with international human rights law or the Geneva Conventions would have called torture by its own name, had they only been asked. Those career professionals were not privy to the policy formulation that was taking place behind a veil of secrecy.
Yoo, Addington, Alberto Gonzales, Feith, et al. were hand picked for their pliant right wing ideology, not for their disspationate, independent minded legal acumen. As in the Godfather's case scenario, the written opinion under the lawyer's fancy letterhead is actually the People's Exhibit A of jointly held guilt.
As an ostensible defense to a charge of conspiracy to commit torture, reliance upon advice of legal counsel is simply not going to pass the smell test.
Bill from Saginaw
It wouldn’t “pass the smell test” in any democracy I know, but what will US judges do?
Obama is extending the Bush argument with “sovereign immunity” which says that, say if the US government dumps a load of toxic waste on your front lawn, and you try to sue, well, you are out of luck, because the “sovereign” , that would be Obama and the entire US government, “can do no wrong”.
How can you people live like that?
Uhh, really? Last I checked, no one in various other countries, other than Spain, has been prosecuted and convicted yet either.
Only the US government, and only the US government, tortured or was complicit in torture? Are you seriously making that argument?
Sioux Rose
BILL: Well-said. I particularly agree with your final paragraphs. If one in power simply got to hand pick those "legal authorities" who bent the law to suit his specifications, we would no longer live in a nation of laws, although it's grounds for debate whether that line has already been lethally crossed.
Right on! The merrygoround circle jerk runaround called our criminal (VERY CRIMINAL) justice system.
Well put.
-We've known about Yoo et al.'s crimes for years. Yet--unlike their victims--they're free as birds, fluttering around, writing op/ed columns...and teaching. At law school!
You think you are in a police state now? Just wait till Yoo's and Obama's disciples graduate and take it to the next level.
I had come to the conclusion that Ted Rall was another Obama cultist who would defend even Obama's most heinous acts. I'm glad to see that I was wrong.
I love all the press the USA citizen and journalist being held on espionage charges in Iran is getting. Her father says he will not leave Iran until she is released or gets due process. Do you think the parents of the hundreds of innocent and guilty Muslims could sitin in the USA until their sons get due process? The hyprocrisy of the USA is boundless.
Obama said about the torturers: "At the CIA, you've got extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe. I don't want them to suddenly feel like they've got to spend all their time looking over their shoulders and lawyering up."
So why is the U.S. deporting John Demjanjuk to Germany to face charges of being a guard at the Sobibor death camp?
German prosecutors issued an arrest warrant in March for John Demjanjuk, 89, accusing him of complicity in murdering at least 29,000 Jews at Sobibor death camp, where he allegedly served between March and September 1943. Mr. Demjanjuk was a U.S. citizen until he was stripped of his citizenship in 2002. The U.S. is about to deport him to Germany to face charges.
Demjanjuk was involved in crimes against humanity. So was the whole Bush administration, and now the Obama administration, too, as well as the government of Israel. So why focus on one old man, whose crimes are in the past, while all these others are free to continue their ongoing crimes against humanity?
Barack Obama, Torture Enabler? It might actually should read as... Barack Obama, Silent Advocate of Covert Use of Torture.
However, I am happy that the Common Dreams site seems to have finally gotten the message that Barack Obama is more about finding ways to 'enable' the continuance of Bush policies, rather than about actually changing them.
-However, I am happy that the Common Dreams site seems to have finally gotten the message that Barack Obama is more about finding ways to 'enable' the continuance of Bush policies, rather than about actually changing them
Don't worry logansafi, when it comes time to vote again, the "left wing" Ha Ha! Democrats will be back in force for your vote. What will their pitch be? "don't waste your vote on politicians who are for the rule of law."
Has anyone else noticed the rise in the level of Obama-hate on CD? If I didn't know better, I'd say it's been invaded by a bunch of righties posing as progressives. I can't imagine a true progressive being so naive to think that Obama, or Nader, or Kucinich, or Gandhi! once in office, would do exactly as planned/campaigned, in less than 6 months. For crying out loud it takes 3 weeks of meetings just to decide on a change of coffee service in a typical office.
How about be a little more patience, and realism. Neocons have had 8+ years to completely trash the place (and Cons another 22 before that).
I will gladly agree with the sentiments expressed by so many posters here...IN 2 YEARS. I think that's the most leeway we should allow Obama to get things going in the direction we elected him for.
I assume "a bunch of righties " is a placeholder for where your reasoned argument should be, but isn’t, Jeeves?
Far be it from me to disagree with someone as important as you (who can telepathically) discern which posters are among those diabolical “righties”. What do “righties” stand for by the way Jeeves, torture? Just so I can distinguish them from “your” side.
You are so far to the right Jeeves, you can’t even recognize a leftist argument when you see it. Two years, you say, as in one more election cycle? naaah, let’s make it twenty, or a million years, is that enough? Actually let’s just all turn our brains off permanently, would that make you happy? ‘cause that is where your country is going.
As an irony addict, I'm actually amused by Jeeves' raising the shibboleth that equates criticizing Obama with being a Republican wingnut.
Many of us who were insufficiently enthusiastic about Obama and the Democrats in CD comment threads during the campaign were regularly scolded, derided, excoriated, falsely accused, denounced, "flagged" and eventually banned for our inability or unwillingness to buy into the "Change You Can Believe In" and "Yes We Can!" mantras.
We inspired a frenzy of pearl-clutching, hand-wringing, and whip-cracking from those who argued that Obama was surely the Last, Best Hope for Mankind.
And even now that Obama has cozied up to the banksters to "fix" Amerika's financial meltdown, and cozied up to the military and security services to fix the problems in Af-Pak, Iraq, and The Homeland, and directed his DOJ to continue, and even exceed, the draconian Unitary Executive-based, anti-constitutional authoritarian policies, we're still being accused of treachery.
If die-hard True Believers aren't ready to concede that Obama is behaving pretty much as we awful, awful, cynical and mean-spirited critics predicted, so be it.
But it takes a combination of chutzpah and leatherheadedness to deny the unfortunate truth of the matter, and continue to accuse those who saw through Obama's hypocrisy and manipulation of merely being enemies determined to undermine him out of unreasoning "hatred".
· Yr Obd't Servant
But see how you're overreacting..."true believers aren't ready to concede...". He's been in office less than 100 days and already "concede, concede, we were right!" That's the same attitude the far right has. They're looking for any reason.
I know it's cliche, but perhaps sometimes you do have to push the knife in a little bit to pull it out. Now if he continues for the next year to act the way he's acting, without the slightest sign of improvement of the economy, etc. THEN absolutely. I will be right here on CD agreeing with you.
Sioux Rose
KANE: If a boat is taking water, a leader does not delay action until a year or so from now. Do you think you have the right to "give him a chance" for that duration when your decision speaks in favor of allowing persons to suffer on a daily basis NOW? Among those suffering, those who might have been bailed out in homes with mortgages adjusted to maintain tenants rather than toss probably decent people out onto the streets so what, the bankers' caste can now skim off these "assets" (foreclosures) and eventually sell them back to the same public that ultimately paid for them (via this transposition of wealth from taxpayers to bankers)? And how about those still residing in our offshore prisons like captured animals held in holding pens? Do you/we have a right to suggest they calmly endure their fates while another year goes by? That coal is clean and instead of shedding substantial sums on alternative energy technologies, there is constant pandering to the established energy interests? And an increase in the war budget? Think the families in Afghanistan hiding from those amoral drones can wait another year, too?
Kane... this is not a phase of gentlemanly politics or business as usual. Sure, the US has a legacy of blood on its hands, but now the criminality is out in public, in plain light for ALL to see. We cannot argue for more complicity with this. Obama is proving an ultimate insider and facilitator of policies that were wrong and still are. There ought not be all this hedging on the things that matter, things that his campaign ALLEGED he would repair! It is a sell-out both financially and spiritually as so many really believed there WOULD be change. What change he's brought is equivalent to a trickle when the dam needs to burst on all the polluted currency that's been protected for all the wrong reasons.
The nation's karma cannot afford more of same. We have passed the defining line in the sand. So many who voted for the great Black hope perhaps are still riding on their initial enthusiasm that he got elected. I think it's GREAT that a mixed race individual obtained the presidency, but it's beyond tragic that he's already proven himself a sell-out. Just having onboard those who engineered crises in other nations (The Chicago School team) and are being given the freedom to do likewise here in our homeland, well, it speaks chapters in the language of corruption.
perhaps the last chapters of the 2 volume epic history, the united states of america 1776-1860 and 1860-2009. required reading for students from the future (hopefully on planet earth - post nation/state reality).
...peace...
Excellent!
Fusion
"Now if he continues for the next year to act the way he's acting, without the slightest sign of improvement of the economy, etc. THEN absolutely. I will be right here on CD agreeing with you."
It seems rather telling that in a discussion centered on Obama's collusion in protecting torturers, you list economic health as part of your litmus test and relegate torture (among other abuses) to a simple "etc."
I second that. Well said, Obedient Servant.
Sorry, I'm about as unimportant as they come. And about as far left as they come. I just also think we can't be knee-jerks like the right.
So tell me...what would Nader or Kucinich have done in his first 60+ days? (and btw I would LOVE IT if the US was the type of country where he or Kucinich could get elected - so don't call me a Nader basher)
Why should we be upset and disappointed? How about Obama's support of Israel's slaughter in Gaza, his protection of torturers and wiretappers, his taking single-payer health care off the table, his loading his administration with neocon hacks, and his big giveaways to the financial industry while our lives are going down the tubes? I had thought that electing a constitutional lawyer as President would mean a new respect for law by the government. Consider this, from the excellent essay "Exporting Torture, Importing Justice," by David Cole, below:
"Domestic law generally leaves investigation and prosecution of crimes to executive discretion, but in this case international law is more demanding. The Convention Against Torture, which the US has signed and ratified, requires that such allegations be investigated, and that persons found to have engaged in torture be either extradited or referred to domestic authorities for possible prosecution at home."
Where is Obama on enforcing the law? Nowhere. He's too busy expanding the killing in Afganistan (see the sidebar story, In Khost, The Awful Shape of Things To Come): The US military has admitted its troops killed, not militants as earlier reported, but a family of civilians when it raided a house in eastern Afghanistan Wednesday night. The victims included an infant and a female teacher; a nine-months-pregnant woman was wounded and lost her baby. The US issued an apology.
I supported Obama, and even contributed to his campaign. I am very angry that Obama's "change we can believe in" has turned out to be the same old crap, and I am not going to wait for two more years of horrors to pile up before I object.
In two years, those babies we just killed in our pointless, stupid attacks in Afganistan would have been toddling around and talking, the light of their families' hearts.
"In two years, those babies we just killed in our pointless, stupid attacks in Afganistan would have been toddling around and talking, the light of their families' hearts."
A voice crying in the wilderness - a voice of compassion.
I supported and contributed too. And I'm a bit stunned by some of his moves. I'm also in awe of some of the other things he's said and done: "...not a Christian nation...", mentioned "non-believers" in his inaugural speech, reaching across the aisle to Muslims, Seder in the White House, inviting LGBT families to the easter egg hunt etc.
It's just too early, given how bad a mess he inherited, to conclude "he's turned out to be crap".
And what do those things ultimately mean?
Take your "inviting LGBT families to the easter egg hunt". Who the hell cares? Remember, "religion is in the mix", and "marriage is between a man and woman".
On the Vermont legislature's decision to override the governor's veto, and legalise gay marriage in Vermont, guess what Obama had to say? Nothing. Too craven, too cowardly, to say anything.
Or, after signing the UN agreement on equality for GLBTs, his administration deliberately specifically made it explicitly clear that the agreement is not legally binding, just to reassure those who oppose equality for GLBTs.
Obama's policy, towards GLBTs at least, is to occasionally give a pat on the head, to toss out a bone or two, to the GLBT community, to keep the GLBT community contributing money and votes to him and the Democrats, since they don't have any other choice.
You are awed way too easily.
Screw you, your pansy-a** gutless, cowardly, murderous, lying "president", and the rest of your brand of "progressives".
Have a nice day--a**hole.
:)
moonpie, Your passion is right on. Many are angry as hello about what is happening. Possibly even not just you.
Might you have an idea about how to change things? My point was 3rd parties, nader, have been widely available as this country has rotted to death.
I thus conclude they nor any voting option will change any fundamental wrong. With the caveat that Obama my spare us the Armaggedon John would have lavished on us.
So moonpie, have you an idea about how we might change things? I would like to help. I've voted once and catch grief for it. Jimminy Cricket!
I Hope honey and butterflies grace your Space, Joseph. And check, I am not the enemy. The enemy is corporations.
Ya know what is torture? CD critics, arm-chair generals, who got NO better idea. Oh Yeah?
1990, vote for nader, feel good, no change, bitch about Clinton
1996, vote for Nader, feel good, no change, bitch about Clinton
2000, vote for nader, feel good, no change, bitch about Bush & everyone who did not vote for nader
2004, vote for nader, feel good, no change, bitch about bush & everyone who did not vote for nader!
2008 vote for nader, feel good, no change, bitch about Obama, & everyone who did not vote for nader!
Okay Class, anyone see a problem with this circular, dysfunctional nonsense? Okay Sally, you first what do you see,
"Oh teacher, I see everything is GOOD! Mr. Nader has announced his plans to Run For American President in 2012!"
Oh Sally!
HA! So your country's problems are all Ralph Nader's fault? Aha! Well I'm glad that is solved to "your" satisfaction. He sort of takes the form of an Emmanuel Goldstein" for you doesn't he?
No I don't feel good about the way the US is fouling up the world, at all.
jlocke, I think this country's problems won't be solved by voting. Or complaining about who other people vote for since voting won't change anything.
Not Obama who I voted for.
Not Nader who many voted for.
Or Anyone.
Americans need to demonstrate, resist as Chris Hedges says. I am glad though McCain is not able to start a nuclear war. But that is not change, that is preventing Armaggedon. We've sought Saviors. But there is only ourselves, and in the end, Americans en masse WILL act, it will be called a Revolution, and in the meantime things will get worse, as they have for decades.
Hope you are well,
Joseph.
Obama didn't promise not to start a nuclear war. Chances are he and his gang will do it when no one's looking.
Oh good grief ! You're even worse than I thought with your incessant Nader bashing. You deserve a tough boot kicking ! However, since you're ok with Obama ABUSING you, I'll leave you to ROT ! Stupid Obamabots !! LOL !!
azjoe is a typical Democrat party troll. Don't let him irritate you. He knows the party's entering meltdown hell but won't come clean about it.
Ya know what is torture? CD critics, arm-chair generals, who got NO better idea.
Oh Yeah?
1992, vote for Clinton, feel good*, no change, bitch about Perot
1996, vote for Clinton, feel good*, no change, bitch about Perot
2000, vote for Gore, feel good*, no change, bitch about Bush & especially Nader!
2004, vote for Kerry, feel good*, no change, bitch about Bush & especially Nader!
2008 vote for Obama, feel good*, no change, bitch about Bush & especially Nader!
*hold feet to fire
Okay Class, anyone see a problem with this circular, dysfunctional nonsense?
Okay Sally, you first what do you see,
"Oh teacher, I see everything is GOOD! Mr. Obama has announced his plans to Run For American President in 2012!"
Oh Sally!
[fixed numerous typos]
· Yr Obd't Servant
Ya know what is torture? 3rd party bashers who are hell bent on blaming everyone else but themselves for their own failures. Oh Yeah?
1992, vote for Clinton, feel good, no change, Republicans bitch about Perot
1996, vote for Clinton, feel good, no change, Republicans bitch about Perot AGAIN despite Perot being less relevant !
2000, vote for Gore/Liebernazi or Dubya/Cheney, feel good depending upon who won despite both being the same, change for the worse to come with Democrats ready to kiss up to Dubya, blame nader for Florida
2004, vote for Kerry/Edwards despite Kerry sounding droopy and offering less of an alternative simply because Bush is bad, feel good, more changes for the worse, force Nader off the ballots and piss more voters off
2008 vote for Obama, feel good, no change, bitch about Nader, Mckinney, & everyone who did not vote for Obama or Mccain!
Okay Class, anyone see a problem with this circular, dysfunctional nonsense? Okay Sally, you first what do you see,
"Oh teacher, the Democrats can't shut up and fix their own problems. All they want to do is blame someone else ! Go away Democrats and leave me alone and stop telling me that we need Obama in 2012 because the GOP nominated a really looney fringe rightwing candidate"
Bravo Sally!
And you Joe?
"Well, I know Obama has moved to the right and disappointed us but we have to shut up and reelect him or the big bad GOP will destroy America !"
Sally, I see you have something to say.
"Yes teacher, I do. Joe, you're a wuss !" (The entire class and even the teacher laugh)
Ok Sally, I know you're annoyed at Joe for his insensitive talk. Joe, I'm not sure you're understanding the pattern here. You need to improve your critical thinking skills.
Nice Post Carla, I can laugh at myself, not just the world I live in.
I submit though that other than being glad McCain has not started WW3, and BO helped avert that, voting will never solve anything. It sure has not, has it?
So Carla I ask, if voting achieves nothing, and it has not, what might we do?
Miss Bedingfield offered the other night that winning elections for Nader is irrelevant.....thank God, that must make 20 years of losing easier.
Your post was clever, but did it not point to the uselessness of voting?
So other than name-calling and clever finger pointing, I wonder if you or any Nader Lover has a plan that might HELP PEOPLE? Because for decades American's lives have gotten worse as Nader has been your hero and you all have voted for him.
I'm not hitting at the Loser Nader here, that is too easy, I am pointing out that while he has run for POTUS every four years and been a cult figure, this country has slid through the sewer grates. I've voted once in my life.
don't blame me,
cause it ain't me,
it ain't me your lookin for.
Before you judge me, take a look at yourself. And the non-results of your actions & noble votes. US Blues.
Oh! this is getting better and better!
not only has "BO" (I'm not sure this is Obama's favorite acronym, by the way) averted WW3, way to go Obama nation!…errrr, when was this exactly azjoe?…
but news flash: “voting will never solve anything”. Azjoe is obviously the sort of true believer in democracy the Democratic party of America has come to rely on.