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The Cancer in Occupy
The Black Bloc anarchists, who have been active on the streets in Oakland and other cities, are the cancer of the Occupy movement. The presence of Black Bloc anarchists—so named because they dress in black, obscure their faces, move as a unified mass, seek physical confrontations with police and destroy property—is a gift from heaven to the security and surveillance state. The Occupy encampments in various cities were shut down precisely because they were nonviolent. They were shut down because the state realized the potential of their broad appeal even to those within the systems of power. They were shut down because they articulated a truth about our economic and political system that cut across political and cultural lines. And they were shut down because they were places mothers and fathers with strollers felt safe.
Black Bloc adherents detest those of us on the organized left and seek, quite consciously, to take away our tools of empowerment. They confuse acts of petty vandalism and a repellent cynicism with revolution. The real enemies, they argue, are not the corporate capitalists, but their collaborators among the unions, workers’ movements, radical intellectuals, environmental activists and populist movements such as the Zapatistas. Any group that seeks to rebuild social structures, especially through nonviolent acts of civil disobedience, rather than physically destroy, becomes, in the eyes of Black Bloc anarchists, the enemy. Black Bloc anarchists spend most of their fury not on the architects of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) or globalism, but on those, such as the Zapatistas, who respond to the problem. It is a grotesque inversion of value systems.
Because Black Bloc anarchists do not believe in organization, indeed oppose all organized movements, they ensure their own powerlessness. They can only be obstructionist. And they are primarily obstructionist to those who resist. John Zerzan, one of the principal ideologues of the Black Bloc movement in the United States, defended “Industrial Society and Its Future,” the rambling manifesto by Theodore Kaczynski, known as the Unabomber, although he did not endorse Kaczynski’s bombings. Zerzan is a fierce critic of a long list of supposed sellouts starting with Noam Chomsky. Black Bloc anarchists are an example of what Theodore Roszak in “The Making of a Counter Culture” called the “progressive adolescentization” of the American left.
In Zerzan’s now defunct magazine Green Anarchy (which survives as a website) he published an article by someone named “Venomous Butterfly” that excoriated the Zapatista Army for National Liberation (EZLN). The essay declared that “not only are those [the Zapatistas’] aims not anarchist; they are not even revolutionary.” It also denounced the indigenous movement for “nationalist language,” for asserting the right of people to “alter or modify their form of government” and for having the goals of “work, land, housing, health care, education, independence, freedom, democracy, justice and peace.” The movement, the article stated, was not worthy of support because it called for “nothing concrete that could not be provided by capitalism.”
“Of course,” the article went on, “the social struggles of exploited and oppressed people cannot be expected to conform to some abstract anarchist ideal. These struggles arise in particular situations, sparked by specific events. The question of revolutionary solidarity in these struggles is, therefore, the question of how to intervene in a way that is fitting with one’s aims, in a way that moves one’s revolutionary anarchist project forward.”
Solidarity becomes the hijacking or destruction of competing movements, which is exactly what the Black Bloc contingents are attempting to do with the Occupy movement.
“The Black Bloc can say they are attacking cops, but what they are really doing is destroying the Occupy movement,” the writer and environmental activist Derrick Jensen told me when I reached him by phone in California. “If their real target actually was the cops and not the Occupy movement, the Black Bloc would make their actions completely separate from Occupy, instead of effectively using these others as a human shield. Their attacks on cops are simply a means to an end, which is to destroy a movement that doesn’t fit their ideological standard.”
“I don’t have a problem with escalating tactics to some sort of militant resistance if it is appropriate morally, strategically and tactically,” Jensen continued. “This is true if one is going to pick up a sign, a rock or a gun. But you need to have thought it through. The Black Bloc spends more time attempting to destroy movements than they do attacking those in power. They hate the left more than they hate capitalists.”
“Their thinking is not only nonstrategic, but actively opposed to strategy,” said Jensen, author of several books, including “The Culture of Make Believe.” “They are unwilling to think critically about whether one is acting appropriately in the moment. I have no problem with someone violating boundaries [when] that violation is the smart, appropriate thing to do. I have a huge problem with people violating boundaries for the sake of violating boundaries. It is a lot easier to pick up a rock and throw it through the nearest window than it is to organize, or at least figure out which window you should throw a rock through if you are going to throw a rock. A lot of it is laziness.”
Groups of Black Bloc protesters, for example, smashed the windows of a locally owned coffee shop in November in Oakland and looted it. It was not, as Jensen points out, a strategic, moral or tactical act. It was done for its own sake. Random acts of violence, looting and vandalism are justified, in the jargon of the movement, as components of “feral” or “spontaneous insurrection.” These acts, the movement argues, can never be organized. Organization, in the thinking of the movement, implies hierarchy, which must always be opposed. There can be no restraints on “feral” or “spontaneous” acts of insurrection. Whoever gets hurt gets hurt. Whatever gets destroyed gets destroyed.
There is a word for this—“criminal.”
The Black Bloc movement is infected with a deeply disturbing hypermasculinity. This hypermasculinity, I expect, is its primary appeal. It taps into the lust that lurks within us to destroy, not only things but human beings. It offers the godlike power that comes with mob violence. Marching as a uniformed mass, all dressed in black to become part of an anonymous bloc, faces covered, temporarily overcomes alienation, feelings of inadequacy, powerlessness and loneliness. It imparts to those in the mob a sense of comradeship. It permits an inchoate rage to be unleashed on any target. Pity, compassion and tenderness are banished for the intoxication of power. It is the same sickness that fuels the swarms of police who pepper-spray and beat peaceful demonstrators. It is the sickness of soldiers in war. It turns human beings into beasts.
Losing this moral authority, this ability to show through nonviolent protest the corruption and decadence of the corporate state, would be crippling to the movement. It would reduce us to the moral degradation of our oppressors. And that is what our oppressors want.
“We run on,” Erich Maria Remarque wrote in “All Quiet on the Western Front,” “overwhelmed by this wave that bears us along, that fills us with ferocity, turns us into thugs, into murderers, into God only knows what devils: this wave that multiplies our strength with fear and madness and greed of life, seeking and fighting for nothing but our deliverance.”
The corporate state understands and welcomes the language of force. It can use the Black Bloc’s confrontational tactics and destruction of property to justify draconian forms of control and frighten the wider population away from supporting the Occupy movement. Once the Occupy movement is painted as a flag-burning, rock-throwing, angry mob we are finished. If we become isolated we can be crushed. The arrests last weekend in Oakland of more than 400 protesters, some of whom had thrown rocks, carried homemade shields and rolled barricades, are an indication of the scale of escalating repression and a failure to remain a unified, nonviolent opposition. Police pumped tear gas, flash-bang grenades and “less lethal” rounds into the crowds. Once protesters were in jail they were denied crucial medications, kept in overcrowded cells and pushed around. A march in New York called in solidarity with the Oakland protesters saw a few demonstrators imitate the Black Bloc tactics in Oakland, including throwing bottles at police and dumping garbage on the street. They chanted “Fuck the police” and “Racist, sexist, anti-gay / NYPD go away.”
This is a struggle to win the hearts and minds of the wider public and those within the structures of power (including the police) who are possessed of a conscience. It is not a war. Nonviolent movements, on some level, embrace police brutality. The continuing attempt by the state to crush peaceful protesters who call for simple acts of justice delegitimizes the power elite. It prompts a passive population to respond. It brings some within the structures of power to our side and creates internal divisions that will lead to paralysis within the network of authority. Martin Luther King kept holding marches in Birmingham because he knew Public Safety Commissioner “Bull” Connor was a thug who would overreact.
The Black Bloc’s thought-terminating cliché of “diversity of tactics” in the end opens the way for hundreds or thousands of peaceful marchers to be discredited by a handful of hooligans. The state could not be happier. It is a safe bet that among Black Bloc groups in cities such as Oakland are agents provocateurs spurring them on to more mayhem. But with or without police infiltration the Black Bloc is serving the interests of the 1 percent. These anarchists represent no one but themselves. Those in Oakland, although most are white and many are not from the city, arrogantly dismiss Oakland’s African-American leaders, who, along with other local community organizers, should be determining the forms of resistance.
The explosive rise of the Occupy Wall Street movement came when a few women, trapped behind orange mesh netting, were pepper-sprayed by NYPD Deputy Inspector Anthony Bologna. The violence and cruelty of the state were exposed. And the Occupy movement, through its steadfast refusal to respond to police provocation, resonated across the country. Losing this moral authority, this ability to show through nonviolent protest the corruption and decadence of the corporate state, would be crippling to the movement. It would reduce us to the moral degradation of our oppressors. And that is what our oppressors want.
The Black Bloc movement bears the rigidity and dogmatism of all absolutism sects. Its adherents alone possess the truth. They alone understand. They alone arrogate the right, because they are enlightened and we are not, to dismiss and ignore competing points of view as infantile and irrelevant. They hear only their own voices. They heed only their own thoughts. They believe only their own clichés. And this makes them not only deeply intolerant but stupid.
“Once you are hostile to organization and strategic thinking the only thing that remains is lifestyle purity,” Jensen said. “ ‘Lifestylism’ has supplanted organization in terms of a lot of mainstream environmental thinking. Instead of opposing the corporate state, [lifestylism maintains] we should use less toilet paper and should compost. This attitude is ineffective. Once you give up on organizing or are hostile to it, all you are left with is this hyperpurity that becomes rigid dogma. You attack people who, for example, use a telephone. This is true with vegans and questions of diet. It is true with anti-car activists toward those who drive cars. It is the same with the anarchists. When I called the police after I received death threats I became to Black Bloc anarchists ‘a pig lover.’ ”
“If you live on Ogoni land and you see that Ken Saro-Wiwa is murdered for acts of nonviolent resistance,” Jensen said, “if you see that the land is still being trashed, then you might think about escalating. I don’t have a problem with that. But we have to go through the process of trying to work with the system and getting screwed. It is only then that we get to move beyond it. We can’t short-circuit the process. There is a maturation process we have to go through, as individuals and as a movement. We can’t say, ‘Hey, I’m going to throw a flowerpot at a cop because it is fun.’ ”


784 Comments so far
Show AllUsually Hedges (who spent his life in the mainstream and leapfrogged to the front of the left commentator pack almost overnight) is annoying, but this is damaging reactionary bullshit.
The Occupy encampments were shut down because of their message, pure and simple. And they were primarily shut down by corrupt urban DEMOCRATS. Look at places like Philadelphia where there was not the slightest hint of any form of "violence", and where the same riot police were trotted out to evict people one way or the other. In the vast majority of cases it's the POLICE who have been violent, and hitting people not some damn Starbucks window.
Does Hedges seriously believe that there was ANY intent to allow Occupy to thrive? Is he COMPLETELY IGNORANT of the Homeland Security involvement in shutting down Occupy, and of the mayoral meetings (mostly DEMOCRATS, the real cancer of the left, sucking up its resources and killing the body...) to plan how to evict and marginalize?
Having dealt with the anarchist crowd for the past 20+ years I've frequently found them frustrating for a number of reasons, but I would NEVER call them a "cancer", which is harmful and stupid and divisive. Is there any group of people more dedicated to this sort of fight than the anarchist groups?
The "cancer" of Occupy would be the attempts to turn the movement into a cheering section for Krishna, Jesus and (perhaps most perversely) Obama '12.
Hedges needs to go back to collecting his mainstream media paychecks, or perhaps back to the seminary.
"...The Occupy encampments were shut down because of their message, pure and simple. And they were primarily shut down by corrupt urban DEMOCRATS. Look at places like Philadelphia where there was not the slightest hint of any form of "violence","...
-------------------------
Hedges addresses your concern in his first paragraph:
"...The Occupy encampments in various cities were shut down precisely because they were nonviolent. They were shut down because the state realized the potential of their broad appeal even to those within the systems of power. They were shut down because they articulated a truth about our economic and political system that cut across political and cultural lines. And they were shut down because they were places mothers and fathers with strollers felt safe."...
... and then he forgets all of that and blamed anarchist kids for everything. If the article stopped there it would have been dandy.
And I'll tell you what, I feel safer when I know that the people around me are willing to defend themselves against police violence, rather more so than when people show up to be martyrs and get billyclubbed on both cheeks.
Anyone who brings a baby stroller to a protest is a moron and Child Protective Services is in order. This isn't Iceland, this is a country where the Pentagon is handing SWAT equipment to the police. Do you see a lot of baby strollers in Tahir Square? I often disagree with various anarchists about X Y or Z but they are usually the only people sensible enough to show up at a protest with some preparations for tear gas and padding against clubbing. They seem to be the only people who understand what country they live in and what could happen to themselves.
Going back to reread the beginning of the piece raised my eyebrows on the statement that Hedges considers himself part of "the organized left." Seriously?! Does he mean the MoveOn/DLC sheep or what? Because if it weren't for the radical elements the kumbaya crowd couldn't organize their way out of a wet dangling chad.
One might point out that Occupy Oakland basically only still existed to this point because of the anarchists. In most other cities without as much of a radical element people folded up and went home a long time ago.
Excellent comment. I do not agree with everything the black bloc does, but activism in Pittsburgh, and our most effective organizing center, The Thomas Merton Center, was pretty much destroyed by the older "pacifist" activist's attacks on the principle of diversity of tactics held by most of the youth.
And who says their tactcs are not effective? The ONLY reason the G20 resistance got any media attention at all was the non-permitted march and the carefully targeted corporate property actions by the anarchists. I was there, every resident in the poor Lawrenceville neighborhood wher the march started was supportive of the "anarchists" and contemptuous of the police. The permited marches the next day proceeded quietly with no media attention at all, except for Obama's sneering comment at how small they were. Other major peacful actions, like the Climate Convergence in Shenley Park, had their permit ignored, were raided, and all their literature and exhibits siezed by the police at before dawn of their first day. The meida ignored this and the event literally "never happened".
And, when the pacifists turn in those they disagree with to the police, as actually happened at Pittsburgh's occupy camp, (which is peacefully packing up and going home under a judges order as I type this), they are no longer even nonviolent, but are outsourcing their violence to the police.
And this stuff about the black bloc being police provocoteurs, at G20 Toronto or elsewhere, is nonsense. My brother witnessed the police car burnings and most bystanders were openly cheering the actions, so if it were an agent-provoceteur, it sure backfired.
Chris Hedges is indeed full of bullshit in this article. Gandhi and MLK type tactics only worked becasue in their time there was still a genuine popular media that extensively covered their actions and in particular, the grievances behind them. Those days are over. The media ignores such peaceful actions today.
The Toronto Police DELIBERATELY abandoned a pre-rigged decommissioned Police car in a place under heavy Corporate Media scrutiny, and ignited the on-board incendiary when the false perspective of the cameras would 'document' the 'vandalism' being committed by 'anarchists'.
This was investigated and proven to be the case.
Can you provide a reference to this investigation? A google search shows nothing, and my brother who is an activist in Toronto would surely have mentioned this to me.
And if it is the case, then it still backfired, becasue, at least a the Queen/Spadina burning, there was general approval of the incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0uHyBPR0MI&feature=related
From a YouTube post response to the G20 Toronto Police car burning: @stevlandambrose The biggest dead give away is the police cars that were burning. Compare the lights on the roof to the police cars they now use, and have been for 3 or 4 years now. The cars that burned had much thicker lights than those sleek ones they use now. In fact those bigger lights are obsolete in S. Ontario, since it is harder to spot them now from afar.
http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/11614
Specifically: "Toronto Star article is here.
The car was not burned until later, when the black bloc was gone and ordinary and not-so-ordinary citizens were having fun playing with the police equipment.
Citizens having fun with trashed police car:
click here.
Another video shows a single cop running in to attack the black bloc as they smash police cars that would also be burned in the financial district.
Big-time-hero cop attacks black bloc by himself at 3:12 seconds:
click here.
There is also video and photo of a line of riot police blocking the black bloc and other demonstrators from continuing at one intersection."
There is a huge yawning chasm between being a Police agent provocateur committing a pre-approved action and cheering on the destruction of a symbol of documented Police brutality.
I just wish to bring CD readers' attention to the fact that Actual Leftist, who stands firm for the Official 911 narrative, as does PDJ, appear to be jointly working this thread to cast aspersions at Mr. Hedges' always astute insights and critical observations. It takes an agent, or agent provocateur, to appreciate the work of another of his kind. Regular readers of this site should pay attention to which posters reinforce each other's memes, especially when their viewpoints reinforce authoritarian-style messages. Granted, each of them has access to numerous screen names.. Still, they appear to invest resources (the most critical one being time, itself) in developing the various screen name personae in use... so patterns CAN be recognized. (Typically, when I point this factor out, others from their ranks show up to do their utmost to impeach my testimony. In the interest of Truth, it must be shared.)
I'm glad that Hedges reinforced the power of nonviolent protest, and that he recognizes how this Black Bloc could well be engineered by those most intent on seeing OWS fail. And that would be agent provocateurs. Again, take note of those who oppose this message as imparted by Hedges.
thanks for yr comment. _agents provocateurs_ are a reality. i found for myself that i had to read a fair amount of the history of progressive insurgencies to grasp this.
ilmoderato
Just to be clear, you think that the government is paying me to provide rhetorical support for... anarchists?
This is the same brilliant level of deductive acumen which leads you to 1) 9/11 was faked while 2) astrology is real.
As I've related before, the LEAST one would expect from an "Actual Leftist" would be the agnostic approach that questions what any government that so evidently over-reaches its authority broadcasts as true... especially when:
1. It had the story ready to go before any serious investigations took place
2. It needed a "New Pearl Harbor" to launch the already planned war, a/k/a orgy of resource acquisition (i.e. oil) in the Middle East
3. It ruthlessly punishes principled truth tellers like Bradley Manning, while rewarding a military-industrial complex that frequently is found guilty of naked murder
4. Its highest placed officials routinely break long-established law(s)
Since there are very few persons who have STUDIED astrology, the same sorts of smears used on all radicals--which is to say those who refuse to march lock-step with authoritarian creeds--has lent unfair prejudice to my field.
It's a low blow to use my area of expertise in an attempt to diminish my credibility. Yet as I predicted, those who do not want readers to know of their double lives, posing as sincere Leftists only to undermine EVERY promising development when not casting aspersions at voices on the Left, find it much easier to try to impeach the witness and her testimony.
Pjd says he's an engineer, but has never provided an answer for why it is that he posts during business/work hours on a REGULAR basis. He's also used the name Sabocat, as I suspect you've used others. You're a little more slippery, so I'm not yet sure of your prior names. I fully expect you to deny this, but then isn't plausible deniability the item of intelligence you're trained to traffic in?
Immoderato: They're here.
While I agree with your thoughts on 9/11, I think that the accuastions of "mole" talk is unsupported speculation and does not further the dialogue.
As to folks who post during business hours, maybe thay are just shucking their work related responsibilities.
Yup, I do mess around on the interent during work hours, but end up working into the evening to make up for it - so I still do my 8 hours work. Most of the US white-collar workforce does the same thing when the boss isn't watching.
But you will note that my last post was during lunch hour, and right I'm now taking a break.
I know quite a few engineers. Most of them do not punch clocks but work til the work is complete. Sometimes there are lulls, sometimes they work non-stop for 12 hours.
Warning: Off Topic
SR, I have always admired your thinking and comments on CD. I believe you are a compassionate, very smart, astute individual. But I am curious about this whole astrology thing. When I tell an astrology believer what my sun and rising signs are they say, ah ha! thought so. But when I ask any of them to make an educated guess, based on all they know about me, they can't begin to do it. Therefore, within my somewhat narrow experience, it appears to be based on preconceived notions, or self-fulfilling prophecy. I put it in the category of numerology, monotheism, etc. An "astrologer" once told me he could see a "pink aura" around my body. I suspect he was coming on to me.
Astrology is an interesting field that could be helpful. I used to think that it couldn't gain any ground unlike science or religion but after finding friendly teachers on the subject, getting some spiritual reassurance from my wife and spiritual psychologist, and seeing what could have been better had the field been mainstream, I think that there might be a chance yet. Here's what I think is the problem. The anti-astrology crowd do everything to discredit astrology while the ultra-fervent give it a bad rap without realizing it. Still, I still believe that those of us including myself who are still open to the field of astrology, the best we can do is try not to let anyone insult us either because s/he doesn't believe in astrology or that s/he thinks we're not "getting it". That should make us better progressives and better OCCUPY warrior minds.
"The anti-astrology crowd..."
You mean people who understand astronomy?
If you knew the history of science, you would know that there would be no astronomy without it's parent science, astrology. And there would be no chemistry without its parent science, alchemy. All the great early scientists came out of those traditions and there was a great deal of overlap.
I do know that. And I also know, "knowing the history of science" that astrology and alchemy have been completely discredited.
As has anarchism. Only an idiot or a provocateur would advocate for an anarchist led revolution. Anarchism is an ideal and trying to lead an anarchist movement is worse than herding cats. Dividing and conquering an anarchist movement is a simple task. I cant imagine a strategy more suited to the aims of the 1% than turning the occupy movement into a disorganized rabble of criminally minded radicals with masks on.
You have a stunning lack imagination and no idea what you are talking about.
As has anarchism. Only an idiot or a provocateur would advocate for an anarchist led revolution. Anarchism is an ideal and trying to lead an anarchist movement is worse than herding cats. Dividing and conquering an anarchist movement is a simple task. I cant imagine a strategy more suited to the aims of the 1% than turning the occupy movement into a disorganized rabble of criminally minded radicals with masks on.
The Catholic church once preached the earth was flat so...therefore the f""king pope is the father of NASA.
Astrology and astronomy used to be one until the "Age of Reason" but even after becoming 2 separate disciplines, it was always possible for coexistence. I'm no guru in astrology or astronomy but besides knowing a little of each field, I respect both fields and know for a fact that lots of astronomical research came from astrological ideas and beliefs. Even astronomy gurus can give credit to astrology where it's due.
The anti-astrology crowd..."
You mean people who understand astronomy?
****************snork**************
We are talking about the power of demonstration, infiltration, and the use of trained provocateurs. The article is about that! And it is interesting that the bugs come out of the woodwork taking us down the rabbit hole, instead of talking about the supposed "criticism" of Hedges, we are discussing ASTROLOGY. This is the PATTERN Sioux is talking about- coordinated action dismantling topic,community, and solidarity. This tactic of calling out someone about their personal proclivities is a tried and true method of infiltration and nullification. Anyone here that denounces Black Bloc raise your hand. OK, now those that support. Let's discuss tactics and strategy- even the Black Bloc utilizes these concepts. Let me close by saying, we need to reconcile with the Block BLoc, the Marines, women, men, children. Viewing others as the enemy is the problem not the solution- when someone tells you who your enemies are, take a good look. It could have been left at that- but redirecting topic and discussion is the most common pattern utilized here. For instance, if we are discussing civil rights in AZ, be wary of someone who waxes sentimentally for the old Detroit vehicles of yesteryear and is immediately joined in chorus by other "engineer's", "longtime activists", "more left than you", "more feminist than you" (using archetypes instead of screen names, they tend to change even in mid discussion if the handler tells them they are getting their ass fucked and damaging rather than controlling the authoritarian meme) talking about pintos and novas. Look at peoples real positions, they cannot hide their original intent to protect the current end result. When someone tells you we cannot win, that you cannot trust people, that your are naive, that no tactic is effective use my tactic: Tell them to go fuck themselves. Taken action produces results, that is why the Black Bloc is at the Occupy demonstrations- they know that it is effective.
Agreed. I didn't expect my simple response to RV to generate this many and kind of replies. My apologies. That was a thoughtful reply though and better at trying to heal burned bridges. There are too many personal attack comments for me to digest that I don't think I'll find much of anything new to read on this thread. Chessgames had a point when he said that we humans have the instinct to fight. It takes a lot of training to resist the urge and those PTBs are doing a swell job hiring the most insensitive of those APs both on the streets and in cyberspace. With enough luck and training, we might each be good at reconciling some of those otherwise APs without burning bridges. Best and thanks again.
"I think that the accuastions of "mole" talk is unsupported speculation and does not further the dialogue."
True-- and those kind of accusations have a notable McCarthyistic/Stalinist ring to them.
Straight out of the Karl Rove-Rush Limbaugh playbook, huh, "Progressive" Populist. Your logic is right up there with all those angry white guys who sued Affirmative Action programs for denying them THEIR place in university quotas.
No. It is not McCathy-esque to speak about the spying campaigns taking place. The one who calls out the spooks is not the one doing the surveillance. You deceive by setting up a false equivalence to show just what element you're here to promote and protect.
The number of persons in this thread who either wish to discredit Hedges (and I don't agree with him on every matter, but he is certainly worthy of respect), or wish to otherwise INCITE violence (using as cover their alleged love of anarchy) is troubling. It comes down to about 8 posters. Among them, they've posted about 50% of all the content, 260 comments now in view.
RVR: I'd prefer to discuss the topic elsewhere, or a few here will seek to use my life-long knowledge against me. The effort, as I've learned in this forum, is right up there with casting pearls before swine... this group of thugs takes the material offered and slings it like their own feces, aa they operate from the spiritual level of monkeys trapped in cages.
I don't tolerate deception well. Nor should anyone when EVERYTHING, including the sustainability of our lives, is at stake.
Muy opinion on the mole matter:
Some important reasons to make an accusation that a posterhere is an provocateur:
1. You have concrete evidence
2. They are advocating specific illegal actions, specfic time and place etc.
Some bad reasons:
1. the poster is obnoxious
2. The poster disagrees vehemently with your POV
US police infiltration of political groups and monitoring of communications is an established fact. It does no one any good to be shouting speculative accusations of spying or being a police agent, but it does muddy, and sometimes poison the waters.
There are better ways to discredit those posters that you think deserve it
In any anonymous forum, where some agents have access to I.T. technology, along with being TRAINED in dis-information techniques, you know as well as I do that establishing proof is quite difficult. I do, however, have my sources. And I'll leave it at that. Oh, and there's also that intuition thing. There are some posters here who know that I've called them out--accurately--when they reverted to the use of yet another screen name. Most of us recognize Raven-Read Between the Lines-Native Tongue, and at least 7 other screen names because she makes it obvious that she's speaking. Her use of the word "Gringo," the typical rants about "Turtle Island" become her signatures. Just as astrology and metaphysical analogies would be mine, under any name.
Also, lest you forget, Joe, the Site Moderator DID enter the threads about 6 weeks ago to purge some posts and specifically stated it was due to some of the deleted posts coming from persons using multiple screen names. If Dante is here tonight, he will attest to this point. And I have copies of that material, on record.
The more important question is: Why are some posters defending the agents in our midst by acting as if it's improbable? And why are they largely the same posters engaged in obfuscation, deliberately suggesting that the Black Bloc is not the work of Professional Embeds, either. Just coincidence? Sure.
And it's getting boring and tiring to hear those who know I'm calling them out try to say it's just my response to those I don't get along with. I enjoy HONEST debates and principled arguments. I recognize that I don't have all the answers, and visit this forum to learn new things and pass on what I believe to be true. ORGANIZED efforts to push political agendas--like Ron Paul, or discrediting Global Warming, or lying about Nuclear Power Plant safety, or apologizing for Obama's sell-outs, or making U.S. foreign policy PRIMARILY about Israel are items that require serious rebuttal.
If I find that the same posters always seem to be on the anything-but Left or Progressive side of issues, and if those same posters reinforce each other's posts, AND (at least in the past) they TEAM UP to ruthlessly attack me... well then, the pattern becomes too evident to dismiss. Plus, as stated, I have my sources.
Thank you for being polite.
"...establishing proof is quite difficult."
If you have no proof, then personal attacks of that nature are entirely uncalled for. Period.
< I do, however, have my sources. And I'll leave it at that.>
Classic McCarthyism.
Sioux,
Please go back and read my article again. You level the ridiculous slanderous accusation that I am some kind of "government agent" without actually reading my actual account of involvement in activism in Pittsburgh.
What activist projects and organizing have you been involved in - even if it is just attending a march or rally?
"...deliberately suggesting that the Black Bloc is not the work of Professional Embeds, either."
Well, it didn't work on me; my first thought was that it (most likely) IS the work professional embeds. I think it's fine that you (SR) call out who you see as having an agenda; I think it's also fine that others present their agendas so as to lay it all out for all to see and make their own decisions as to the merit or non-merit of the information and or opinions expressed.
I can't understand why anyone is posing that there are NOT embeds; even the M$M have carried articles/news stories about the fact that it does occur. There is enough room for all to profer, and people have enough CommonSense to filter the BS from the worthwhile; the majority of the people who post here do, anyway.
"I can't understand why anyone is posing that there are NOT embeds;"
Nobody is saying that, as far as I can tell. Anti-systemic movements and organizations are always possible targets for infiltration, but that by itself tells us virtually nothing about a particular movement or organization.
"In any anonymous forum, where some agents have access to I.T. technology..."
You're referring to an internet connection and the ability to type? This is now government "IT technology"?
I have no problem with pointing to commonalities that indicate multiple screen names.
I just think tha all the mole talk, directed at specific posters is speculative and pointless. Most of the righties that come here are all too often clearly Jeff Rense devotees rather than Company moles.
The evidence for police infiltration of leftist groups is indisputable, and has only gotten worse since 9/11. Nonetheless, I think it is much more effective and much less disruptive to attack the content of the reactionary posts and perhaps the underlying assumptions and attitudes.
Of course I am not one to refrain from personal insult, but that those insults are clearly my opinion. I would not make seemingly factual accusations without a lot of back up evidence.
I am not saying that any particular poster is or is not a mole. Just that an unsubstantiated accusation of police agency is not an effective rebuttal and can poison the thread.
Agreed. I don't have trouble identifying the scammers, and I don't think that there are (m)any who do.
Thank you Sioux Rose for upping the suspicion levels. I know they are here monkey-wrenching and agree with most of your suspects and yes I'll never know for sure but I prefer to live in suspicion than to be manipulated by di*kheads from the right. I encourage you all to suspect me, although you'll quickly find I use my own name as an act of courage and faith. How about the rest of you heros?
"No. It is not McCathy-esque to speak about the spying campaigns taking place."
No, but it IS McCarthyistic to state or insinuate that certain dissenting posters here are "moles" or some kind of paid agents without producing any evidence to that effect.
Those are cheap, unfounded ad hominem attacks. They are a poor substitute for argument based on reason and facts.
One would have suspicians at the very least concerning anyone who could disagree with the blaring fact that the power and success of Occupy emerges from it's non-confrontational stance. Like a Lao Tze tactic - it is not an intelligent move to give power to your opponent by confronting/affirming his posture but by moving aside and maintaining the strength of your own position (and refusing distraction). Like Hedges says, aggression is the fastest way to playing into the hands of authorities bent on discrediting Occupy in the eyes of the rest of the nation and with the rest on board, the powers that be know well they're screwed.
As for Sioux's comments on shills - all the power to ya - you're one courageous woman willing to stand by your convictions and yes, everything IS at stake.
I see that the 9/11 conspiracy's Project Distraction is continuing on time and under budget.
As I keep repeating, for people who "don't believe in" hijacking you manage to hijack ANY thread on the internet and turn it into one on your pet topic, one which requires no action from the reader.
If I were an agent of the government I would likely be spinning a tale that the brown people of the world are incapable of resisting the empire in any fashion, that attacks on the "Homeland" are impossible, that there's no reason to be attacking the US anyway, and that resistance is futile because black ops Navy Seals ninjas will create extremely (unnecessarily) elaborate plans to destroy records... um... no, wait to distract the publ-... no wait that's not it... um, to do... something.
" as I suspect you've used others..."
You're a lunatic. I post with one name here. I just wish that you'd post with one cohesive worldview.
You post with one name here? You post with a pseudonym and then you assume to spray slime over the discussion. Why don't you take your shitty ego trip and f--k o-f?
This is the level of discourse you think the government is paying people to participate in? If that were true those faulty unemployment numbers just released might actually be true.
I think I've provided fair criticisms of Hedges' piece, especially as I am not an anarchist myself, and found them used rudely. When you asked pointed questions about my background I gave specific answers.
All I've gotten in return for this are accusations of being a government agent (because if there's one thing government agents do, we all know they love to spread pro-anarchist propaganda!) and an attempt to change the subject to 9/11.
I often wonder about the 'time' resource myself... that's an interesting accusation about 'actualleftist' (who really seems pretty reasonable to me) coming from someone who must have whole days at [her?] disposal to comment on the comments here...
It's bad enough I put in so much time on here myself... my friends tell me I'm wasting my time, and I'm finding it harder to argue with that...
Anyway, I guess I'm automatically a provocateur now for objecting to Hedges. Sorry... I really appreciated his work a few years ago, but he's not leading the way for me lately. Provocateurs are a real thing, but they are not often successful, as we saw in Toronto and Quebec.
At some point soon, we are going to have to face the very real threats to personal safety when we go to protest... I don't see it getting any safer, with or without 'rogue elements'. Hedges isn't providing real guidance here... just a stab at a shadowy and purposely limited cadre of activists who feel they have the freedom to explore other options. This is all just the beginning...
If you must know I do two different things for a living. One of those happens some weeknights and the other is work-from-home, and via the internet no less,
Also I read and type quickly. Excuse me for literacy.
So there's that, that could be the Occam's Razor explanation for what I'm doing here...
... orrrrr SiouxRose's astrological 9/11 conspiracy stuff combined with Chris Hedges' anti-anarchist spiel is SO VERY VITAL to the workings of the Empire that I am employed full-time by the NSA to argue with you on CommonDreams, the leader in public opinion.
Take your pick.
Actualleftist: You mistook my post. It was in response to Siouxrose, not you. I don't want any justification, really... not from you, or even [her?]. I find I'm very sympathetic to your arguments, and only wish to add to them.
I'm actually a little suspicious of someone I see on here constantly who seems to have assumed the role of hall monitor spontaneously. That is where my 'time resource' remark was directed (my dry manner doesn't help)... I'm unemployed and housebound these months, so that's my excuse for being on here so damned much. I have to wonder about someone who is actively trying to ferret out spooks and covert influences. Not saying they don't exist... I just find it amusing that they would waste their time on here with a few readers... Hearts and minds, maybe, but not on such a pitiful scale.
But what a response this piece got! I urge you to look at my other comments elsewhere...
Well, it's great to be lumped in with Chris Hedges. If an "actual leftist" can knock him, too, I'm in GOOD company.
And Zeo, be sure to clean off your tongue. It'll get nasty from licking the anything-but- Actually Leftist's boots.
Tony V: Thanks for standing up. These frauds try to pose more to the Left than thee and thou, but they just want to get a beat on who's spoiling for a fight. Kind'a reminds me of the way our National Security numb-skulls look for poor chumps who need a little money, and then get them wrapped up in "terrorist" plots so that Fox News can convince 40% of Amerikans that there really IS a need for all this hopped up National Security State and its inversion of every sovereign right our Constitution guarantees!
I'm doing a count right now... but it's already clear that Actual Leftist, working with Zeo (better yet Zero), and Joe Hope have managed to dominate the first 2 pages of this thread. Note how "Actual" inverts the obvious into the ruse that I am the one deflecting it... these dominators can't STAND anything but reinforcements to THEIR talking points.
Ouch! You got me... my cover's blown now. Damn! I thought I was making such great strides on a pinko comment thread, but you're too sharp for me...
I would love for you to meet me in person. I am certain you would be disappointed... just another middle-aged guy out of work, interested in current events, marched in protests and spent as much time as I could at my local Occupy... have read a lot of Hedges and appreciated his insights, despite my misgivings about this article....
Overactive imaginations come from too much time on one's hands... just because someone challenges your views, that doesn't mean they are 'frauds'.
"Note how "Actual" inverts the obvious into the ruse that I am the one deflecting it... "
No ruse - we're discussing Occupy and the Hedges article and you're trying to make it about 9/11. Anyone can plainly read that.
No. I am impeaching your testimony, and exposing you for the fraud I take you to be because your reaction to the 911 issue is so knee-JERK in support of the government's official storyline. That's pretty odd for a Leftist. Also, the way this thread began with you and PDJ, so you two top dogs could control its direction deserved to be called out. I don't buy the BS that PDJ works late hours. I see him here EVERY DAY and he posts often. I think you both work for some branch of Homeland Security or The State Department.
And to Zeo, who thought he was being oh, so smart, in turning the time meme around on me, I am not the one PRETENDING to be an engineer. I am a freelance writer, and I work for myself. I can post any time I damned please. For all the dis-information posted on this site, standing up for Truth is a full time job. And unlike you and "the guys," I don't get paid for it.
Too many people in this thread are purposely inciting violence. Now, maybe it's some residue left over from yesterday's macho super-bowl spectacle, but I think it's more than that. If it's just a testosterone match among male egos out to see who's most boasting for a fight, then granted, my lack of that hormone has me seeing things quite differently. Is it any wonder with so many males in so many positions of power, that war and violence always seem like the sanest solutions?
Bravo to comments of Curmudgeon, Old Hare & Artemix. You are in the minority, who get it. And while I seldom disagree with Durrutix, it scares me that the insights his post revealed are being used by those with a probably not "of the light" agenda.