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TechnoratiAn Unnecessary War
I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.
After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.
Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.
We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.
Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.
After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.
Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).
We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.
On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.
After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.
The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.
160 Comments so far
Show AllThe US government, who is responsible for supporting and arming, including with 400 nuclear warheads, the genocidal state of Israel (really Occupied Palestine), is the number one problem here.
The number two problem is YOU, who do nothing about it.
That same US government allows sites like this plastic progressive sandbox to operate relatively unfettered.
Why?
Because they view it as a useful SAFTY VALVE: they know if you piddle away your time posting and hand-wringing here that you won't march on Washington and throw their asses out.
As always, the ball is in YOUR court--and I don't see you doing squat.
By the way ...
I find it very interesting how all the Israeli apologists, who were all over these articles when the incursion just started, have totally evaporated!
I guess the uglyness is getting a bit too much for them to cover up, even with their unctuous rhetoric.
.Hired on a limited basis I would conjecture...
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Or maybe some had their eyes opened.
Joe
From The Atlantic
"Israel has, in effect, launched the war on the Iranian empire that President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, in particular, can only have contemplated."
by Robert D. Kaplan
Iran's Postmodern Beast in Gaza
Israel has just embarked on a land invasion of the Gaza Strip after a week of aerial bombing. Gaza is bordered by Egypt, and was under Egyptian military control from 1949 through 1967. And yet in a startling rebuke to geography and recent history—and in testimony to the sheer power of audacity and of ideas—the mullahs in Teheran hold more sway in Gaza today than does the tired, Brezhnevite regime of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt. Gaza constitutes the western edge of Iran’s veritable new empire, cartographically akin to the ancient Persian one, that now stretches all the way to western Afghanistan, where Kabul holds no sway and which is under Iranian economic domination.
Israel’s attack on Gaza is, in effect, an attack on Iran’s empire, the first since its offensive on Iranian-backed Hezbollah in 2006. That attack failed for a number of reasons, not least of which was Israel’s poor intelligence on Hezbollah: historically, its intelligence on the Palestinians has been much better. Moreover, this attack seems more deliberately planned, with narrower, publicly stated aims – all in all, a more professional job. But there is a fundamental problem with what Israel is doing that goes to the heart of the postmodern beast that the Iranian empire represents.
To start with, Hamas does not have to win this war. It can lose and still win. As long as no other political group can replace it in power, even as some of its diehards can continue to lob missiles, however ineffectually, into Israel, it achieves a moral victory of sorts. Moreover, if Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah movement tries to replace Hamas in power, Fatah will forever be tagged with the label of Israeli stooge, and in the eyes of Palestinians will have little moral legitimacy. Israel’s dilemma is that it is not fighting a state but an ideology, the postmodern glue that holds together Greater Iran.
Whether it is the sub-state entities of Hamas in Palestine, Hezbollah in Lebanon, or the Mahdi movement in Shiite southern Iraq; or the hopes, dreams, and delusions of millions of Sunni Arabs, principally in Egypt, who feel a closer psychological identity with radical Shiite mullahs than with their own Pharaonic Sunni autocracy, Iran has built its dominion on a combination of anti-western ideas and the dynamic wiliness of its intelligence operations (which, in turn, are a reflection of a civilization more developed and urbanized than that of the Arabs). Iran’s message of anti-Semitism and hatred toward the United States plays well across sectarian lines in the Sunni Arab world, which identifies its own fatigued, uninspiring, and detested rulers with the side of the U.S. and Israel. Sunni Arabs hate their own rulers, but despairing of changing their own lot, they channel that hatred toward us: thus the potency of the Iranian message. A nuclear weapon will only supply Iran with more prestige among the Arab lumpen faithful.
The ideologizing of hatred, like the ideologizing of religion, can empower millions of alienated, working-class Arabs who feel psychologically adrift in the world of the early 21st century. Israel won its audacious military reputation during the age of Arab state armies. Because Arabs never believed in their own secular states, their armies were never very good in the first place, and thus Israel had no trouble impressing the world in its wars against them. But at the sub-state level of movements like Hamas or Hezbollah, the Arabs very much believe in their cause, and thus Israel has a real challenge on its hands.
How do you fight unconventional, sub-state armies empowered by ideas? You undermine them subtly over time, or you crush them utterly, brutally. Israel, unable to tolerate continued rocket attacks on its people, has decided on the latter course. Our own diplomacy with Iran now rests on whether or not Israel succeeds. We need to create leverage before we can negotiate with the clerical regime, and that leverage can only come from an Israeli moral victory—one that leaves Hamas sufficiently reeling to scare even the pro-Iranian Syrians from coming to its aid. In defense of its own territorial integrity, Israel has, in effect, launched the war on the Iranian empire that President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, in particular, can only have contemplated.
And yet the one place where Moslems are cynical about Iran is in Iran itself, where the regime relies on a narrow base of support amid a state that (despite its vast oil reserves) is in economic shambles. Thus, the supreme irony of the Middle East is that the place where anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism are least potent is in the Iranian heartland. Public opinion-wise, Egypt and Saudi Arabia constitute more dangerous territory for us than Iran. Iran’s benign relationship with the Jews, in particular, stretches from antiquity through the reign of the late Shah.
The Greater Middle East hangs on a thread: it could either explode into direct warfare between Israel and Iran, or it could evolve for the better after the Teheran regime is undermined by public opinion, triggered at least initially by continued low oil prices. Given the historical record, the current level of hostility between Israel and Iran may not be the last word in regional geopolitics. For there are cataclysms to come, and the real battle for the soul of the region may be fought in Iran itself.
For the moment, now that Israel has launched a war, we need it to succeed, rather than be compromised by the kind of ceasefire that allows Hamas to regroup. If that happens, our leverage with Iran will be further reduced, with negotiations yielding little. But once Israel does succeed, then we will need to bear down on it hard, in the service of negotiations with both Arabs and Iranians.
This Kaplan article is so much nefarious claptrap to me because there is no compelling reason to posit Persia as the enemy. Why because it might gain military parity to israel someday? Fat chance. But also israel has a mentor megamonster ally named the USA. The Iranian EMPIRE !!!!!!!!! now I know Kaplan has got to kidding. It infuences the dynamic powerhouse of western Afghanistan wow!! A thousand people and dam good Kabob! It influences another military powerhouse Hamas, it only takes them how many years to kill how many people?If the zionist town did not like hearing the rockets they were free to open the borders and make a just peace. What it all boils down to is a vast majority of the world sees Hamas's demands as reasonable. And most of the world sees israelis as not accepting any restictions whatsoever on the racist implementation of their power.
.An interesting piece to be certain. I do wonder, however, about the fact that the Palestinian people are mostly Sunni and Iran mostly Shia. We seem to see a great unwillingness for those two factions to work together thus I wonder at this supposed Iranian influence in Gaza.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
The answer is in the article:
"...Sunni Arabs, principally in Egypt, who feel a closer psychological identity with radical Shiite mullahs than with their own Pharaonic Sunni autocracy, Iran has built its dominion on a combination of anti-western ideas and the dynamic wiliness of its intelligence operations (which, in turn, are a reflection of a civilization more developed and urbanized than that of the Arabs). Iran’s message of anti-Semitism and hatred toward the United States plays well across sectarian lines in the Sunni Arab world..."
The relationship between Sunnis and Shiites is not nearly as black and white as it is portrayed by our silly corporate media. Shiites in Iraq fought hard against Shiite Iran in the Iran/Iraq war of the 80s. But now, there is very close collaboration between the Shiite regime in Bagdad and the regime in Teheran.
No question whatever about the Iranian influence in Hamas.
Think about 2 brothers 'who fight all the time'. Let either one be attacked and see how quickly they team up. No matter how much the Shiites and Sunnis might have long-standing differences, they are all Muslims and their hatred of Israel and the US supercedes their differences by a long shot.
.Frankly I do not know the extent of Iran's influence in this conflict. But I do know of the large numbers of influential people who want a war with that nation. My rising to the question stems from my desire to avoid seeing that war commence.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Hi ardee, the fury of Arab people with Iraq, repression in Egypt and the monarchies and Gaza's immolation is beginning to cause a bridging of this divide. Just caught something about that this a.m.
Israel gave the finger to yesterday's UN Security Council resolution, and started attacking again at 4 am today.
That makes HOW many they've given the finger to since 1948?
They should change their flag from the Star of David to the middle finger emblem.
Joehope says: "Your Jewish GOD of vengence, hate, and war"
Catherine, why don't you check out this site,
http://www.adl.org/
....
Wow, is this a threat??!!! I could care less what the ADL has to say
joe Hopeless. I will critisize the policies of the Racist and bigotted illegal state of Israel anytime and anywhere. YOU are the ones that need to heed your own advice about "anti-defamation"...
I had the old testament garbage crammed down my throat when I was a kid in the Christian church we belonged to and IT IS A GOD OF HATE, VENGENCE, AND WRATH on anyone Not of their Tribal ilk.
No wonder many Christians are confused. On one hand they are taught that God is vengence, and then on the other to turn the other cheek and how God is Love.
Face it, Israel is a terrorist nation at the support and arming by the U.S., which the Congress is nothing but an owned entity by Israel. If you think not, you should go into C-span and watch all the Congressmen speak in absolute unquestioning loyalty to Israel this morning. It should be taped and you should be able to watch. It was most disgusting to listen to them say that "the Palestinians want to create an 'Islamic-State'....then two sentences later "Israel has a right to exist as a 'Jewish-State'.
Congress has lost all credibility and to put Israeli Racist-zionist-terrorist policies ahead of what is good for America is not only stupid, but completely immoral....especially in light of the purposeful slaughter of innocent children.
In song: "LULLABY FOR A CHILD IN WAR"
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6086636
(free download)(complete lyrics)
mainesongwriter@gmail.com
Be prepared to shed tears.
Joe
A lot of us do not hate Israel! We are not anti-semitic or for the Palestinians. We realize what they are doing is no better than the Israeli's. We think Israel has a right to exist. But, not at the expense of the Palestinians. Because Israel is basically the ones who started this conflict in the 40's when they took someone else's land to set up their state of Israel. The US has in all reality taken the side of Israel and are allowing them to commit atrocities in the name of the USA. This is being done because the primary religion in the US is Christianity and has its roots in Judaism. A lot of us object to that because it goes against the basic tenets of the Constitution. This is the biggest reason no one criticizes the Israeli's for war crimes they are committing. If anyone but Israel were doing this we would condemn them and cut off all aid. We give them billions annually to defend themselves. Where a lot of us feel if they want to live in the area they need to learn to defend themselves without our help! We shouldn't be expected to back them up in all their incursions. Why should the taxpayers of the US be expected to help defend them? It has put us at odds with the Muslim world. And we can understand why they hate us so much. We are going to continue to have problems until we start treating the Palestinians equally.
peacekeepertwo- It is my hope that President Obama, will Bring the US under the Authority of the International Criminal Court. When Israel Chooses to Ignore International Law we Need to Cut off US aide to Israel. If we do this, there will be less Terrorism within the US, this Could save A lot of money.
Is no one reading this article? Even I agree with Carter here. This war was unnecessary.
"He declared launching rockets from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism.."
Refuting this truth calls your veracity into question.
"We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day."
That the Israeli were using food and supplies as weapons is not in doubt.
Refuting this truth calls your veracity into question.
Though I believe Carter used to be our worst living President and was responsible for a lot of the troubles here, his summation is the only possibility ......
"The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace."
He is absolutely correct.
Thomas - I agree with you about Carter on Gaza and Palestine, but maybe sometime you can explain why you think the Carter presidency was worse than the smirking preppy loser who has directly caused the deaths of so many? Honestly, I do not remember hating Jimmy Carter, but perhaps I was naive.
Joe
.Read the article? What a concept, sort of like engaging ones brain prior to posting, whatever possessed you Thomas?
The Presidency of James Earl Carter foundered because he was the consummate outsider and Washington DC is the consummate insiders club. His real worth has come after his failed Presidency to be certain but, when judging his intent one might remember his call to keep oil imports at 1975 levels, his installation of a solar collector on the roof of the White House ( which Reagan promptly tore down). Had we actually taken Carter's advice we might be in a lot better shape today. Had he been able to work with Congress we might be the leading nation insofar as clean energy production is concerned.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
If I convert to Catholisism does that mean I get dual citizenship with Italy? Does it mean I can move there and push some non-catholic off their land and spit on them? Do all catholics around the world have a claim on the lands of Italy?
Or worshippers of Odin reconquering Denmark and Sweden.
Yes, of course, if "God" tells you to, if "God" promises that land to you. Better check with a priest, though, because "God" set it all up so that you cannot speak directly. You need a middleman called a "priest" who lives a life of luxury by collecting his "tithe" from church members. You also need this "priest" to tell you how to live your life, when to have children, and the like.
-- ekaton aka d.k.shaw
The priests, the state and the people all try to possess land.
EKATON,
Catholicism may be no better than Devil worshiping, but I personally go to no church however have a great relationship with God based on praying and on what Jesus said, mostly a message of love, surely not one of war.
Check this. Thirty, 30 people in a safe-house in the Gaza suburbs were just vaporized by a laser guided 500 lb bomb directed by an IAF pilot on Viagra.
The Guardian is reporting OBAMA WILL DIALOGUE WITH HAMAS.
bligh4
Not if you are a Quaker.
You gotta admit that Quakers aren't the shitpots unlike the religious fundies you go to bed with these days.
JWVerez:The Quakers, or Friends, have a great group, American Friends Service Committee. You probably know of them. I have known the organization when a relative worked for them. Long ago. You don't have to be a Friend to work for the AFSC. One man who was born a Quaker was Richard Nixon. Go figure.
The description of the Quaker ship owner in Moby Dick is not so flattering either. Like all religions, there is a lot of latitude for how you apply it to real life.
Joe
No you are not allowed to spit on them.
You can shoot them in the face though.
But you need US backing to get away with it.
Israel will never recover any world respect after this latest terrorist attack against the Palestinians.
That's assuming they had any respect in the world in the first place.
Carter's still around?
He gave up building houses and writing about his mother to bash Israel. What gives? Could be senility.
Oh well, doddering Carter (yawn) is no Obama. Nobody pays any attention to him since he became pathologically anti-Israel. As a Christian and a Jewish person, I am really sick of fundamentalists like Carter letting his religions views cloud his politics. It's even more ridiculous when you consider that Christianity and Judaism worship the same G*d. Jews and Christians need to learn to get along.
joe dope, take your medicine and go joe.
ignore zionist troll
Which is the same God worshipped by Muslims.
What a simpleton you are. And, lots of people...LOTS...pay attention to Carter, and he has very important things to say. No point telling you because you're too highschoolishly dense, but Carter is not against Israel. Like me and billions of people, he's against the right-wing cabal that dominates politics over there and treats Palestinians horribly.
BTW, what is this precious queasiness about removing the vowel from the name of the object of your superstition. Your god is afraid of vowels?
Most of the civilized world knows and respects Carter. And you, Joe?
.Your worst effort yet, Joe. How low will you eventually go? How far will you bend the truth and how much will you distort reality? Insulting a man who has done more for the people of this world than ever you could imagine while appealing to people to get along says volumes about you.
You call yourself a christian and act, again and again in a very unchristian-like manner. I am no christian so i can tell you what a piece of work you really are!
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
joehope,
I'm sorry but your comment that Jews and Christians worship the same GOD is just not entirely correct. Maybe the zionist Christians have been suckered into believing Your Jewish GOD of vengence, hate, and war, but the Jesus in no way supported this version of Pharisaic God. He even called YOUR vengeful God the "devil". I've done alot of research on this subject and Jesus was in no way committed to the false teachings and corrupted scriptures that the Pharisees subscribed to. Jesus was from the ancient hebrew faith that had accepted a Universal God of love for EVERYONE, the ones that embraced all humanity (there was no "chosen ones", which was a creation by the corrupted Levitical priest). I no longer subscribe to any religion because of how corrupted people have twisted original teachings of peace and using Religion to discriminate against others.
By the way, I'm sure you know that the majority of Israeli citizens are NOT the original hebrews. They are JUST jewish with no semitic ties to this land whatsoever.
I just wish Jimmy Carter had called the Israeli's the Terrorists that they are...he seems to stop short of this...maybe out of fear of going "too far". He had no problem calling the Hamas activities terrorism....which does not even come close to what Israel is doing OR has done over the last several decades.
I support the semitic people in this area...which is the Palestinians.
"Your Jewish GOD of vengence, hate, and war"
Catherine, why don't you check out this site,
http://www.adl.org/
ADL? They are spies for the Mossad. Hardly credible IMO.
Excellent Post!
Let's start a debate over who's supernatural anthropomorphic justification for war and misery is the 'correct' one. And who's interpretation of the 'words' of this creature (who obviously hates women by the way, based on the precepts of all monotheistic faiths) is the 'correct' one!
It's pretty clear to me that morality exists before religion. And that an imaginary white male figure of unlimited power, capable of unlimited destruction through 'His' faithful, is a careful afterthought to justify that existence and provide a ready-made power structure for the evil and selfish among us to exploit to their inestimable advantage.
I don't remember who said this. But it is so true.
It is easy to get bad people to do bad things.
But if you want Good people to do bad things....now THAT takes religion!
Right on! And let me offer a quote from Emo Phillips: "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me."
Religion is at the root of all this B.S.--on both sides--and the killing will never stop as long as both sides are "believers." Morality would be so much easier to realize and maintain without religion twisting it six ways from Sunday.
As for Joe, he's lost in his faith. He can't hear you.
FastEddie:
Good one. I was raised a strict Catholic in a tiny, very tight Catholic community and I prayed for a bicycle and a go-cart. I got f...all. I wish I had been as quick as you to figure the not-so-mysterious-ways of the lord. That was cool, because you got to keep the bicycle, right?
As to "Religion being the root of all this B.S., I don't quite agree there. Larry Beinhart had an article on CD a few weeks back (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/18-3) to which poster 'ctrl-z' said: "Say God, think land".
I agree with that. 99.99% of wars, are fought for extremely tangible things (resources, minerals, trees, water, access to the ocean, women, slaves, etc.) that all amount to...LAND. Religion is the organizing and motivating (manipulating) factor, but not really the prime dynamic, in my opinion.
As physicscitizen said: "It is easy to get bad people to do bad things.
But if you want Good people to do bad things....now THAT takes religion!"
FastEddie75:He of whom you speak, is playing with folks' heads. He's not a Jew. He's mad at me since I stopped playing with him, as soon as I realized he's just playing. He refused to accept that I am an atheist Jew. I can see the tiny wheels turning:he made himself a Jew. Nobody cares. I go back to ignoring him. But, it's a good example of some people...
Joe? Go lie down.
We need to shift more outreach and organizing resources to challenging our national policies that are funding, arming and training militaries around the world. In this case, it is Israel.
Many know that our government is funding Israel's military with $3 billion of our tax dollars. Lockheed Martin and Boeing are presently building the hellfire missiles and Apache helicopters that are being used to assault Palestinians- and these "defense" corporations have plans to expland their production of these weapons.
Please consider shifting resources to addressing our government's role in these acts of violence via providing the weapons and military funding. We help make this possible so it is our role that we must first change.
That's a great comment, but how do we make it happen?
Dear Patriots:
It is simple. What we are dealing with are the same pharisees that crucified Jesus, are now crucifying the Palestinians!
They own our economic and political institutions. Congress is in their pocket. The only reason why they have such a stranglehold on 80 % of Americans is because Americans are uneducated, indoctrinated, fat and lazy.
However....Suffering heralds redemption. As our economy is destroyed and more of our citizens are thrown out of their homes and as the jobless cry for bread...change will occur! Beware the nobility! Your time to be held accountable will come!
www.jamescarroll.net/Constantine.html
.Ahhh now the epithet 'Christ killers' rears its ugly head....Please refrain from speaking while awaiting your rapture....
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
The controlling powers in Israel do not want peace. This is clear.
Thank you Carter for telling it like it is. This military response from Israel was far out of proportion to the rocket attacks from Gaza. As horrific and unjustified as this invasion is, I saw this coming for a long time. That said, I believe Israel has the right to exist, and the right to defend itself, even though Zionism seems to be the root cause of the current Israel-Palestinian troubles. Hamas should stop launching those damned rockets into Israel and Israel should lift the blockade. An international peacekeeping force should serve as a buffer between Israel and Gaza and especially at the entrypoints into Gaza.
More and more I am starting to favor letting Egypt take control of the Gaza strip, and letting Jordan take the West Bank, the way it was before 1967, as the permanent solution to this mess. Even neoconservatives like John Bolton favor this idea, and I normally disagree with them 99% of the time. This is a rare opportunity for neoconservatives and progressives to work together. Hopefully this time Egypt will offer the Gazans citizenship, just as Jordan has offered citizenship to just about all Palestinians. It always seemed to be in the best interests of the Arab countries to leave the Palestinian refugee situation unresolved. While the Arab countries don't deserve most of the blame for the refugee crisis, they obviously could have done "something", like a population-exchange perhaps. In theory, the Palestinians do have the "right of return" to their former homes in Israel. In practice this is an extremely foolish, unrealistic idea that should be abandoned. It gives the Palestinians false hopes, and this delusion isn't helpful for a permanent peace settlement. They think that if they can scare enough Jews with their bombs and missles, the Zionist project will be abandoned and they can move back home to Israel.
The idea of a separate, independent Palestinian state alongside Israel doesn't make a whole lot of sense for several reasons. If Israel didn't exist it seems very likely that "Palestine" would be a part of Syria, Jordan or Egypt, or divided among these 3 and perhaps Lebanon as well. The 2 state solution doesn't seem to be in the best interests of either Israel or the Palestinians. If anything even remotely resembling a terrorist attack against Israel came from of an independent Palestine, you can bet that Israel will retaliate and occupy it, and the cycle of violence will never end. To date, the Palestinians have never fought the Israelis with a well-trained, well-funded, technologically advanced military - the last thing the Middle East needs is a Palestinian state with a military(it's bad enough that Israel is armed to the teeth by the U.S and is armed with nukes). If you think the problem is bloody now, wait till that happens.
So Egypt gets Gaza, Jordan gets the West Bank. They should both offer citizenship and slowly but surely destroy Hamas, and the Palestinian authority. As many incentives as possible should be given to Egypt and Jordan(and other Arab countries) to ensure they accept, especially from Israel, the U.S and the EU.
peaceistruth
I don't believe the Palestenian people would agree with you. Aside from that, why would you believe that Jordan, Egypt, et al would accept it? They won't allow one Palestinian into their countries now. They don't want them obviously.
Thank you Thomas More. This is what bligh4 and peaceintruth fail to comprehend or because of their obvious racism refuse to acknowledge. And then they keep wondering why the citizens of those nations in addition to the Palestinians hate their dictators and hate us. It's reckless brown shirts like bligh4 and peaceintruth who give all Americans a bad name.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
bligh4
Jordan has apparently expressed interest in some type of joint territory in the West Bank. They only gave up their claim of the West Bank as sovereign territory of Jordan in 1988- under intense pressure to do so. Some recently polled West Bank residents agreed that they did better under Jordanian adminstration than under PLO administration.
Egypt is another matter, they have expressed severe reservations about having a radicalized population added to the country- not to mention Hamas' links with the Muslim Brotherhood. Perhaps the 5 billion a year we pour down the Egyptian rathole could be used as leverage.
Anything is worth a try, and better than what we have.
"Jordan has apparently expressed interest in some type of joint territory in the West Bank."
Prove it.
"They only gave up their claim of the West Bank as sovereign territory of Jordan in 1988- under intense pressure to do so."
Not true. Jordan and Israel simply agreed to a pact that was "good" for the elites but bad for the people.
"Egypt is another matter, they have expressed severe reservations about having a radicalized population added to the country- not to mention Hamas' links with the Muslim Brotherhood."
There you go again. bligh4 refuses to acknowledge the truth about Egypt and its abuse against its own citizens let alone the Palestinian refugees and immigrants but bligh4 loves US backed dictatorships it seems.
"Perhaps the 5 billion a year we pour down the Egyptian rathole could be used as leverage."
And how do you propose to do that? In fact, the US has no business robbing the taxpayers to pay the dictators in Egypt or for that matter the wacko zionists running Israel. Donating to DICTATORS is TOTALLY UNAMERICAN and your support of it is just disgusting.
"Anything is worth a try, and better than what we have."
Correction: Anything but pro-zionist pro-fascist shit such as yours is worth a try. The more Israel keeps turning fascist the more terrorists they harbour and I'm sick and tired of doling out by tax dollars to such regimes and so should you.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
But do the Palestinian people themselves want that. That is what I was really trying to express aside from the culpability of all the Arab world in this mess....what do the Palestinian people want? Their own country I believe.
"what do the Palestinian people want? Their own country I believe."
Seems logical, Thomas. So does the solution - give it to them.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
bligh4 has either no understanding of the Palestinians or has profound hatred of them and it looks like the latter is showing. Then again, bligh4 has shown his racism against the Palestinians. In fact, he's also against the Afghan civilians being entitled to their own country and would much rather the US-backed Taliban and war lords run the country into the ground. And here's the proof of his racism:
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bligh4 September 14th, 2008 7:13 pm
bligh4
Why the hell are we still in Afghanistan? Give it back to the Taliban and let Osama run the place if he wants to. Who cares if Afghan girls get to go to school? Let's worry about ourselves, they can go back to their old way of life.
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Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
bligh4
Terrence, you apparently have a refined capacity to miss irony when you hear it. The above post was in response to other posters all out attack on the american fighting men and women in Afghanistan, and the calls for their immediate withdrawal.
I will be more careful in the future, now recognizing the irony-impaired.
"Terrence, you apparently have a refined capacity to miss irony when you hear it."
Whatever dude. I busted you for the racist you are and you can't handle it. I didn't want to hammer you but you gave me no choice.
"The above post was in response to other posters all out attack on the american fighting men and women in Afghanistan, and the calls for their immediate withdrawal."
That's no excuse for posting a racist and pro-terrorist comment. You have earned my contempt for the racist you have exposed yourself to be and may God refine your brain. I'd hate to see your children turn out to be a bigot and/or a racist just like you.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
bligh4
Peace in truth,
I too think this is the only viable long term solution. Terrence and others offer no long term solutions other than the extermination of Israel, which is not going to happen. I am eagerly awaiting word that Terrence has handed his house back to the first Native American that he meets. Maybe my kids, who are part Creek and Cherokee.
Notice how bligh4 conveniently ignores what "peaceintruth" actually wrote. Had the zionist nazi actually read "peaceintruth"'s response, he should have shown his outrage at him. Instead, bligh4 and "peaceintruth" would much rather have the dictators destroy Israel rather than have the land be returned to the Palestinians. In other words, according to bligh4 and "peaceintruth", if the Palestinians fight for getting their land and freedom back, they're destroying Israel and yet it's ok for US-backed dictators of Egypt and Jordan to destroy Israel. Hitler would indeed be proud of these two pro-nazi hacks.
The Palestinians should indeed be allowed to claim Palestine back. That is the real definition of bringing democracy, not bombing out a place to pave the way for religious/corporate hostile takeovers such as in Iraq and now Gaza. bligh4 is lucky he ain't lost his ranch yet or he'd be singing a different tune.
bligh4
JW
I am eagerly awaiting some more of your "evenhanded" approach. I noticed that not one person on this board ever had a problem with Jordan and Egypt taking possession of "Palestine" from 1949-1967. There was no talk of a palestinian state then. Nor do you seem to ever have a problem with the treatment of Palestinians by other Arabs. (ie, the 20,000 killed in the black september uprising, the 250,000 expelled from Kuwait after the gulf war, the withholding of citizenship for numorous generations of refugees by everyone but Jordan, ect.)
I am sure that, in fairness, you also support the right of return or the monetary compensation of the 800,000 jews (now 4 million counting decendants)forced out of Arab countries since 1948. Or do Jews not figure in your "compassion"?
Take a pill and go lie down.
" I noticed that not one person on this board ever had a problem with Jordan and Egypt taking possession of "Palestine" from 1949-1967."
Apparently, you didn't read the posts on this site because plenty of folks here acknowledge it. Sorry you're a fucking blind nazi warhol.
"Nor do you seem to ever have a problem with the treatment of Palestinians by other Arabs. (ie, the 20,000 killed in the black september uprising, the 250,000 expelled from Kuwait after the gulf war, the withholding of citizenship for numorous generations of refugees by everyone but Jordan, ect.)"
Now that you mentioned it and since I remember Kuwait being turned into another US puppet for oil, I'll add that to the list. However, this does not refute the fact that Palestine has a right to exist which a zionist nazi such as yourself can't or won't understand.
"I am sure that, in fairness, you also support the right of return or the monetary compensation of the 800,000 jews (now 4 million counting decendants)forced out of Arab countries since 1948. Or do Jews not figure in your "compassion"?"
They had no right to invade and they belong in G-E-R-M-A-N-Y where they should have been compensated. As to Israel, when they can stop bullying the Palestinians and actually help them instead of hurt them, then Israel's worth keeping. Until then, shut your fucking nazi mouth, asshole. You've probably never visited Israel let alone Gaza and you're only parroting rightwing bullshit like you always do. If your kids really knew the fascist shit you are, I doubt they'd wanna hang around with you unless they wanted to be the next nazi warhols like you.
Go take a pill and get some serious mental counseling, nazi boy.
Only a pro-fascist brown shirt would spout this kind of nonsense. Jordan and Egypt can't even take care of their own people and those two nations are on the list of the worst human rights violators. Plus they were mean to the Palestinians even on the issue of providing aid. And they never allow Palestinians in as they have secret deals with those fascists running Israel. So like bligh4 (more like blind 4x), you would much rather have US-backed dictatorships no different from Israel control Gaza? You need to shut up and allow the Palestinians their own rights to their own land. The Europeans stole the Americas from the Natives, yes both South and North America, and committed genocide in the form of carelessly spreading their diseases from Europe, setting up tribes against each other just like America is now setting up the Shiites against the Sunnis in Iraq, and enclosing them into concentration camp reservations and killing them regardless. Adolf Hitler is laughing at brown shirt Nazis such as you and bligh4 !
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Terrence, don't let the Zionist peanut gallery get to you. I appreciate your posts.
Who's making the money?
Fuck Israel and fuck any Israel supporters. Sorry, but there it is. I tried. I really tried. I even, in my 59 years, have had two Jewish girlfriends. I wish them well. I harbor no ill feelings toward either of those two women. But, I must say, Fuck Israel. Fuck Israel. Fuck Israel.
However... I would be totally in favor of moving all of the Israelis to New Jersey. Remove the current residents (who the hell cares where they go) and move the Israelis in. Or, for that matter, move all of the Palestinians into New Jersey. Remove the current residents (who the hell cares where they go) and move the Palestinians in. The Israel/Palestine issue must be resolves. I am all for moving millions of people around the globe as long as it does not affect me, personally.
-- ekaton aks d.k.shaw
.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I hope you caught the sarcasm, the cynicism, and the "typical" attitude.
-- EKATON --
.Yup....
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
bligh4
President Carter is on the right track. The bombs and rockets need to stop.
The only long term solution is for Egypt to take over the administration and care of Gaza, and probably have the West Bank enter into an agreement with Jordan.
Hamas has shown itself to be true to its charter, which calls for the elimination of Israel. Even during the six month "truce", Hamas launched over 300 rockets at the civilian population of south Israel.
In any event, the Arab countries should stop crying crocodile tears over the Palestinians, and take over more of the share of their care. Currently, the combined contributions of the Arab countries-including the wealthy Gulf states- is less than that of Denmark. And we all know how popular Denmark is in the area.
Egypt take care of the West Bank? Egypt cannot even take care of its own people let alone the West Bank. So let me get this straight. You would much rather allow a dictatorship whose human rights violations against its own citizens rates higher control and smash the Palestinians in the West Bank? It's one thing for you to show your blind support of Israel regardless of their human rights violations but you're even more of a fascist by supporting a known dictatorship whose human rights violations are one of the worst. If you were a Palestinian rancher instead of an American one, you wouldn't be such an arrogant snob that you currently show yourself to be. And then you keep wondering why they hate their leaders and us. And I saw your disgusting comments on recommending that the Taliban, which by the way was built and financed and armed with US taxpayer money, take control of Afghanistan. Your "I got mine screw you" arrogance that unfortunately is plaguing half this country's population is the reason this country is in deep shit.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
bligh4 is just a blind self-righteous conservative who has no regard for morality. I've seen his posts which he'll often deny. He got into quite a heated debate with an earlier user on the issues. For the most part, bligh4 admits his support of the Taliban, Al Queda, Christian fundies, "free" market zealots, etc ... bligh4 probably never travelled outside the country and he'd much rather believe the rightwing bullshit of Limbaugh, Hannity, Boortz, etc ... over the truth. He had a grudge over his daughter just because she was friends with a Muslim and he tends to froth at the mouth when his hypcrisy gets brought up. Unfortunately, this country is filled with such zealots that would make Hitler smile which he's probably doing in his grave these days if he's not laughing hard already.
JWVerez,
You are correct about bligh4's support of the Taliban. Here's what he posted a few months ago on this site which I found doing a google search:
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bligh4 September 14th, 2008 7:13 pm
bligh4
Why the hell are we still in Afghanistan? Give it back to the Taliban and let Osama run the place if he wants to. Who cares if Afghan girls get to go to school? Let's worry about ourselves, they can go back to their old way of life.
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Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
bligh4
JW,
I suggest you double your medication. That, or see a shrink about anger management and your trouble with lying to support your positions. You make all kinds of accusations about me, but can support none of them. Let me talk to your other personality now- the sane one.
It's amazing how a rightwing fundie shows his DENIAL mode and lies about himself and others and yet accuses others of lying. Thanks to people such as bligh4 America is in a rut.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
You have to build a mental list of posters to ignore - the ones who reflexively spit out the same thing no matter what the topic, who don't read the articles, who continuously insult others, who never seem to read or develop. The ignore list is important, and I always feel bad when I get sucked in because it degrades the interchanges.
Joe
If I were an Arab country I wouldn't be letting Israel off the hook either. Why should they take care of them? It is the Israel that stole their land and livelihod.
I say let Palestine be itself. It doesn't belong to Israel, Egypt, or Jordan. That's all the Palestinians want.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
tm...I agree.
Thanks Thomas,
See the reply I posted to DCBeltway1 since she also agrees.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Terrance I agree with you there.
Thanks DCBeltway1. I just cannot understand how people who are called Palestinians can exist as a nationality when they have no country of their own thanks to the US and Europe stealing it. It's as if the fascists and militants running Israel have a senseless urge to persecute a group of defenseless people just like the US backed Taliban and war lords in Afghanistan mugging innocent Afghans, especially women and children, sadistically. I feel bad that the Palestinians are being tossed around by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, US, and Europe but it just pisses me off that the same brown shirt nazis who support oppressing the Palestinians in their own land that just so happens to be Israel strongly supporting those neighboring dictatorships.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
The US once upon a time did have a decent president. But most Americans were too dumb to realize it.
Lets not forget Iran and Afghanistan as mistakes Carter made. He's not perfect but since his retirement he has proven to be a wiser leader.
He has been far, far better in retirment than as President. He has done America proud as an ex-President.