Horror and Stresses of Iraq Duty led US Sergeant to Kill Comrades
Soldier's killing spree left five dead – adding to the grim total of murders by US veterans as the military is accused of failing its battle-scarred personnel
Everyone - the father, the son, the army - agrees that three tours of Iraq drove Sergeant John Russell to the edge.
But what pushed him over, into shooting dead five of his comrades in an army that was his life for 16 years, is a matter of bitter dispute.
The military has suggested that Russell's work cannibalising and rebuilding robots used to set off roadside bombs brought him into regular contact with gruesome casualties, and that took a toll that exploded at Camp Liberty in Baghdad this week.
The army says it recognised signs of trauma in the 44-year-old sergeant, who was just a few weeks from leaving Iraq, and dispatched him for psychological assessment at a military stress centre in Baghdad. Russell got into a fight there, grabbed a gun and shot two doctors and three other soldiers dead.
That version of events has some of the familiar ring of accounts of traumatised soldiers driven to violence by violence. Ever since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan began, soldiers have been returning to the US and killing.
Veterans from the two wars have committed at least 120 murders beginning with a spate of killings of wives at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, in 2002 and continuing with five murders at a military base in Colorado last year.
Alongside the killings has come a surge in domestic violence, drug and alcohol addiction. Meanwhile suicides run at twice the rate of people outside the military. But back at his home in Sherman, Texas, Russell's family say it was not the combat but the army that drove the sergeant in an engineering unit over the edge. His father, Wilburn, 73, said the military was Russell's life and that amid the stresses of combat he had fallen out with his officers.
"I doubt very seriously if the truth is going to come out because of the circumstances. You see he faxed his wife the 6th of this month saying that he'd been threatened by a couple of officers, and it was the worst two days of his life," he said.
On Monday, Russell's commanding officer ordered the sergeant to turn in his gun and receive psychological counselling. Wilburn Russell says the order to give up his weapon would have been deeply humiliating for his son and that after his long service to the army, just when the sergeant needed it most, he was under the impression it was going to dump him.
"I believe the officers decided they wanted him out. At the stress centre they sit you down and tell you you're not the kind of person they want in the service. You're not worthy of being here. How dare you get those stripes. You're too stupid to be in the army. That kind of thing. Well, they broke him," he said.
"If the army turns against him, he doesn't have a life as far as he is concerned. He's ruined. He's done for. He's going to lose his house and probably his wife. He's going to lose everything."
There were other stresses in John Russell's life. He was paying $1,500 (£1,000) for the house his parents and son live in, and had fallen into debt. There were questions around the state of his marriage with his wife back in Germany. The US commander in Baghdad responded to the deadliest act of soldier-on-soldier killings in the war by ordering a comprehensive review of mental health services in Iraq.
But the challenge will be to understand Russell, and how the stresses of long tours in Iraq, the personal problems, the growing difficulties with his superiors fed into each other.
Veterans' groups say the army has been there before and that while the military is more attuned to the effects of combat and the stresses of serving in a war zone, it still falls far short of dealing with the problem.
A US army study of the mental health and morale of soldiers deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq last year found that nearly one in five suffered from acute stress, depression or anxiety.
Soldiers, like Russell, on their third or fourth deployment were at significantly higher risk than those who spent less time in combat zones. Perhaps most shockingly, one in 10 soldiers had traumatic brain injury and only half were treated at the time it was sustained.
Another report, by Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA), said less than half of those suffering from psychological and neurological injuries were receiving sufficient treatment.
"Multiple tours and inadequate time at home between deployments are increasing combat stress," it said.
The army took little notice of the impact of 21st-century wars on its soldiers until a spate of murders in mid-2002 at the base in North Carolina by members of special forces recently returned from Afghanistan.
A month after returning from combat, Master Sergeant William Wright strangled his wife, buried her in a shallow grave and reported her missing.
Sergeant Rigoberto Nieves had been back for just two days when he shot his wife and himself. Sergeant Cedric Griffin stabbed his estranged wife at least 50 times before setting the house on fire.
Altogether four soldiers killed their wives. Two then killed themselves. In a fifth case a woman killed her husband, a special forces major.
Support groups for wives at Fort Bragg also reported a surge in domestic violence. The army study said that suicide rates among those recently returned from combat had risen sharply.
Private Joseph Dwyer caught attention across the US as an army medic photographed rescuing a wounded child during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The picture made front pages across the country and buttressed the popular US view of the invasion as a liberation and a good war. Dwyer returned home a national hero.
But the attention soon faded; he left the army and sank into addiction to alcohol and solvents between periodic bouts of treatment for post-traumatic stress. His wife left him, taking their young daughter.
The police found the 31-year-old former soldier's body after he died from an overdose of pills alone in a flat.
The military's instinct had been to cover up the scale of suicides.
Dr Ira Katz, head of mental health services for the Veterans Administration, denied there was a suicide epidemic when he told a congressional committee there had been 790 suicide attempts in all of 2007.
But then an email, written in February 2008 from Katz to a colleague, came to light. "Shh! Our suicide prevention co-ordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among the veterans we see in our medical facilities. Is this something we should (carefully) address ourselves in some sort of release before someone stumbles on it?" Katz wrote.
IAVA says it is particularly concerned about discharged soldiers "who can lose their bearings outside the camaraderie and structure of the military".
Late last year the military launched an advertising campaign to try to persuade traumatised veterans to come forward using a young army sniper, Bryan Adams, who was shot in the hand and leg during a battle in Iraq.
After he returned, Adams sank into depression, drinking more, alienating friends, smashing up the furniture.
"Each day I felt myself getting more and more out of control, I would push the limits of what was legal and appropriate behaviour just for fun. I behaved as if no laws applied to me," he has written. That continued until his mother, a nurse, recognised her son's problems for what they were.
Adams got himself into college with the help of a grant and is now one of the faces of IAVA when it launched an advertising campaign on the one word slogan - Alone - to encourage veterans to share their experiences.
The army says it greatly increased awareness about combat stress in recent years. Ward Casscells, assistant secretary of defence for health affairs, earlier this year said that there was also a lessening of the stigma associated with some psychological diagnoses.
"Guys are telling us they would still much rather be diagnosed with traumatic brain injury than post-traumatic stress disorder," he said. "But we're getting at some of that stigma. We've reduced it a bit."
The military also launched a suicide watch programme earlier this year.
But veterans groups say that the military continues to fail service personnel, with less than one in four of those who show signs of being at risk from post-traumatic stress disorder, based on screening questions, referred for evaluation and treatment.
No one disputes that many of those in danger continue to slip through the net.
Recently there has been an escalation in crimes committed by soldiers based at Fort Carson, Colorado, where nine soldiers have been responsible for killings after returning from Iraq. Five of the killings have taken place in the last year alone.
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61 Comments so far
Show AllBeForKids
Bless you for helping him!
Thomas, I'm very angry that our government sends our young men into harm's way and then abandons them, leaving them to struggle with inner horrors on their own. And don't get me started on the VA.
Of all the crimes of our government, what they do to those who give the most I consider truly obscene. I think war is wrong, and those who fight for our country are brainwashed because they are really fighting to protect corporate interests. But that's not their fault. They've been lied to and they put their lives on the line, they believe to protect us. They should be honored, their leaders should be hung.
Kathy
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
If you convince me that my life is worth nothing, except as ezeflyer says, to keep the rich in their hummers, what do you expect me to do after I am done killing the people in Iraq?
If I am sent home of course I'm going to kill the people around me. What else are they for but killing? What am I good for except to kill?
Unless of course you believe the people in Iraq are not like the people in North Carolina. I'll bet you won't convince the killers of that. Unless:
I used to know some Viet Nam vets, back here between tours of duty who were naturals. They strutted around in camo fatigues, as happy as if they had good sense. They considered themselves kings. they couldn't wait to get back to where killing was permitted.
I suspect the boys you refer to had never been closer to combat in Viet Nam than the bar in Saigon.
I was thinking the same thing when I read Nietzsche's comment.....
When I stopped to give a homeless Vietnam Vet money (he wasn't panhandling, but clearly homeless) we started talking and he told me he still cries. I told him I had protested that war with all my might and we hugged. Here he was, my age, and his life ruined. I thought, My God, 40 years ago we destroyed a generation of young men's lives, and now we're doing it all over again. Of course, this time is somewhat different, without a draft. Fewer lives, more intense damage. As will be the collateral damage in this country.
"When They Ask You Why We Died, Tell Them That Our Fathers Lied". Obama has become a member of that group.
So Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. I would say this empire needs a graveyard.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
The Guardian author states 120 murders since 2001 (then fails to cite the reference)
Wrong. As of Jan, 2008 article by the NYT, there were 121 veterans CHARGED with various homicides. The number of murders is greater than 120. There has been an increase in murders since 2001 (six years pre and post 9/11 studied) by a percentage of 89% (184 to 349) -of which ¾ came from Vets of Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html?_r=1&hp
gnken
When the US Launched the invasion of Iraq, as well as Afganistan, having grown up watching people graduate from High School to Viet Nam, and return with long term mental issues, which took almost 10 years for the public to recognize what had happened and the US didnt learn. I knew it was a matter of when. The Government doesnt want to recognize stress and mental health issues of veterans. Simple reason. You cant take a sample, test, and determine a sickness. It's all symptoms, and the Govt. feels too expensive. Some need a few visits to the VA, and others may need years of counseling. It's a matter of cost to assist in recovery. So therefore if they can find any other reason to account for the soldiers actions, they can remain blamless. Nothing will ever change. This is very disgraceful
More Nam Vets have committed suicide than died in Nam. And Nam Vets are a huge percentage of USA homeless.
Thats very true to our shame.
The simple fact is that the hate-filled and unnecessary Islamophobic wars in Iraq and Afghanistan waged for the OIL lobby and Wall Street interests has increased the social tensions in the already violence prone US society which is armed to the teeth and seething with tensions at every level. The economic meltdown and the unsustainable costs of the wars at a time of global powershift to Asia will only cause a further breakdown in social cohesion.
The US and "national security" apparatus has been widley abusing human rights and wantonly murdering civilians daily from Iraq to Pakistan. Such savage behavior and the "dehumanization" of the local populations in the occupied countries and official acceptance of abhorrent torture and human rights abuses has desensitized the US population and has only made violence, racism, hate-peddling, paranoia and scapegoating more acceptable. However, there is a huge social and psychological cost to the perpetrators and societies that condone or promote such war crimes and mass civilian killings which ultimately manifests itself in increased social breakdown and violence at the home front.
These needless and sapping neo-colonial resource wars have seriously eroded US social, moral and economic fibre at every level. When these violent neo- imperialist mercenaries return home they have a hard time fitting back into "normal" civilian life with diminishing economic prospects and weak social coping mechanisms.
The disposable materialistic nature of US "culture" also takes it toll on these violent and often low skilled and uneducated individuals, mostly from marginalized groups who now have little or no skills to compete in the highly competitive global economy. The lack of mental health care for these returning killers also causes huge levels of frustration and violent urges. The social, financial and psychological toll on the imploding US society and economy will last for generations to come. The only solution is to disengage from these neo-colonial wars and fantasies of global "power projection" and take a more enligthened approach towards solving complex global issues peacefully. Violence and wars have always boomeranged on societies that harboured imperialistic delusions and in the end consumed the perpetrators. In Hindu mythology it is called KARMA.
Condor May 16th, 2009 2:05 pm rightly sez:
"Violence and wars have always boomeranged on societies that harboured imperialistic delusions and in the end consumed the perpetrators. In Hindu mythology it is called KARMA."
It is also called blowback, a term coined by none other the CIA (an organization that should know...).
War is an equal opportunity killer.
People seem to have a hard time learning from past experience in most areas of the U.S. government (yes, the military is a part of the government).
Iraq sends US soldiers back as killers
_______________________________________
Damn! It's just like 9/11 all over again!
If we could ONLY have SEEN THIS COMING...
But who knew?
· Yr Obd't Servant
Pointed reminder!
Obedient Servant, you're funny. Even when the topic is horrific.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
Incredible. We are turning our young men into killing machines and bringing them home and turning them loose. Cutting them loose would be more accurate. We're breaking their minds with multiple tours and woefully inadequate downtime to live a normal life. Another point is that war is becoming more and more assaults against civilians. WW1 had a ratio of 9 military deaths to 1 civilian death. In Iraq that ratio has been reversed.
Due to it's lack of qualified cannon fodder, the military has lowered the enlistment standards and now takes criminals and psychologically unstable recruits. And the Neo Nazis are rushing in for military training to be applied - here.
Ira Katz should be fired. He should be working for the insurance industry. He makes the VA sound like CYA, although I realize he's not alone in that. Considering their pay scale, he can't be in it for the money, so he must be an unemployable. I'm not suggesting all VA doctors are unemployable, but considering his comments, he sounds more like a bureaucrat than a doctor.
What with the takeover of our government by the financial sector and the corporations, the neglect of our infrastructure and the militarism, the US could write the definitive manual on how to destroy a society. Oh yes, that's been written. By Gibbons, "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire". Our turn.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
The drones are 50 civilians for each opposition fighter.
part of the problem w/our current wars is that, unlike the colonial rivalry known as "the good war" (or WW2), the fiction that troops are fighting for "democracy" cannot be maintained for any length of time.
i knew a kid who did two tours in iraq (i also lost a friend to iraq in the invasion of 2003), a coworker, who on his 2nd tour, took a sniper bullet thru an eye. (the sniper wasn't trying to take an eye out). i had respect for what he experienced (not condoning it, by any means) until one day he joked casually & callously about how much fun it was terrorizing the locals at Ramadi, driving around tear assing thru the shit, destroying homes, etc. perhaps in cowardice, or shock, i said nothing.
the wounded soldier coming home to terrorize his family or the locals is just a PR problem to our leaders, even to the VA. maybe there will be some change in this country when USAeans realize that not only does Obama, Bush, Clinton, & Co. not give a shit about the dirty brown furriners we are slaughtering by the hundreds of thousands, they care just as little for the soldier doing their killing. americans love them some military. maybe realizing their leaders, incl. DOD brass, despise the common soldier will make them realize their leaders despise them and want them dead too.
"the locals at Ramadi, driving around tear assing thru the shit, destroying homes, etc. perhaps in cowardice, or shock, i said nothing."
It isn't you that is the coward, it is him. Everyone thats been in or is in the military knows these types. Thankfully they aren't numerous and in many cases they aren't even telling the truth, just bar blabber.
As to fighting for Democracy...we didn't hear a word about "Democracy" till they found (big surprise) there were no WMD's! Then we were all of a sudden duilding Democracy in the middle east. Sure we were.
You are correct about the "caring" attitude of Bush and company. General Shenseki is quietly doing a good job now. One of the few good Obama appointments in my view.
What many people forget is that most of the people they have sent are Guard, not regulars. They are us, thrown into a dirty little occupation with little equipment, training or good tactics. And paying for the gross incompetence of those in charge of it the first 6 months.
The Marines who are part of MARSocs are not Guard. They are regulars and according to the reports they seem to be the most Gung Ho when it comes to the slaughter of Civilians.
Bull shit.
>>MarSOC was created three years ago on the express orders of Donald Rumsfeld, US defence secretary at the time, despite opposition from within the Marine Corps and the wider Special Forces community. An article in the Marine Corps Times described the MarSOC troops as "cowboys" who brought shame on the corps.
These are not Guardsmen Mr More. They are a Marine Unit. How can guardsmen bring shame on a Marine unit?
I suggest you "Call the marines Corps times" on this Mr More and tell them it not a Marine Unit.
It seems to me that I also pointed out that of the Soldiers in Blackwater that were charged with the slaughter of those Civialiuns in Iraq , a number were ex marines as well mr more.
So you were saying?
GwNorth May 16th, 2009 7:24 pm
Damn....you got me on this one. Technically they are a Marine unit and yes the Times is correct. Kneejerk post of the worst kind!
This is going to hurt, but there are some dirt bags that wear the Blue, we get rid of them as fast as possible, but they are Marines (of a sort) that are the ones you spoke of in Blackwater.
The Corp is almost 100% the best we have, my father was proud to wear the Blue and so was I, though he joined voluntarily and I was invited to attend. Best men I was ever associated with and a microcosim of ethnicity.
Please forgive my lapse into profanity....and I ask your indulgence now and in the future for my pride in the Corp. Its a deserved pride.
i hope you are right about shinseki. but the army grunt who made that comment about ramadi seemed to think it was "normal". he certainly had no shame (to his shame). he was kind of boasting about it in fact. i'm not now nor have been in iraq or any other theater of war, so have no 1st hand knowledge, only what i read and hear about, but bad things seem to be happening enough in iraq & afghanistan for the locals to be seriously pissed at US troops.
I hope I'm right about Shenseki myself! The kids need help.
"but the army grunt who made that comment about ramadi seemed to think it was "normal". he certainly had no shame (to his shame). he was kind of boasting about it in fact"
Thats why I figured he was probably one of the rear echelon warriors. Real combat veterans don't talk like that nor do they tell anybody much of anything. Thats just my opinion though. Could be wrong.
I haven't been to Iraq or Afganistan, so you pretty much know as much as I do, except some of my kids from the day are now officers in those theaters and they do tell me things, plus I still have friends in the Marines that have fair information from time to time.
If I were an Iraqi or an Afgan I'd be seriously pissed at us myself. We attacked Iraq with no provocation and deserted Afganistan when we promised to stay before and then show up again. We have no business in either.
at the time i met this kid (i keep calling him "kid", but he's sure seen/done things i hope i never do), i was working on a DOS contract for non-military personnel in afghanistan (this was over 1.5 yrs ago, and i'm out of contact w/any of them, and things obviously have gotten a lot worse in afghanistan since that time.) lots of ex-military in the office, but mostly logistics/admin guys. i worked w/lawyers & prison officials who were in country (i was in arlington, va, not in afghanistan). many of the prison guys were former military, some of them had seen & done stuff i could not believe (well, you're former military, so you might have been better able to relate), some of the lawyers had done things like work on the UN war crimes tribunals in rwanda, former yugoslavia, etc. truly awesome, interesting, committed people. the job itself was a killer, which is why i'm not there, but getting to know some of those people was the best. one guy was a korean war vet, worked on sky scrapers in NYC, prison work at pelican bay, lived in malaysia, came out of retirement to go to afghanistan and work on women's prisons. he told me the 1st day he was on the job in afghanistan, he felt like he finally knew why he'd been born. he really felt like he & his crew were making a huge positive difference where he was working. ("i'm here today to keep this prisoners from being raped, to see that the native guards get paid so they aren't tempted to join the insurgency, to help separate the "taliban guilty" from the truly guilty [if you know what i mean]," etc.)
and i'm sure he was. but he & others could see the writing on the wall. the deteriorating situation, escalation along the pakistan border, failure to get any kind of control of the drug trade, plans to intro a "plan columbia" type crop-eradication program (which they were all 100% against). they all seemed to feel like DOS/DOD/DEA/etc. were a bunch of screw ups (if not corrupt themselves) and the focus was so heavily military-oriented when it should have been development, not guns.
anyway, a bit of my background.
I hear you and I believe most, if not all of our problems over there were caused by the stupidity and inept planning of the mediocraties initally in charge over there.
A few days ago i suggested returning US Veterans were killing more Americans then were terrorists in the USA.
Theres the numbers and it will only get worse.
Now the question has to be asked. Are they broken after returning from Iraq, or are they broken before they even get there?
Some are more broken than others before they go, many are only ignorant and financially broke.
And many are destroyed when they return. But interestingly enough washing your hands in blood often leads to the insight that shedding blood is futile.
Thus all the despicable chickenhawks who created this worst criminality in USA history.
Not only did the Neocons create a dictatorship, destroy the economy and kill one million people, they sent 300,000 deranged and another 300,000 brain damaged trained killers into the domestic USA society.
There is a simple solution to the whole war, torture, violence and idiotic methods that now rule the American militaristic imperialism: a nationwide DRAFT, with no exceptions. Even those with 'back problems' (a la Cheney and Limbaugh), disabilities, whatever, they must serve in some capacity. As long as we have an all-volunteer military and mercenary contractors, our government will be ruled by arrogant, hate-mongering assholes. A draft that excludes no one will bring America's desire for wars such as in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan to an abrupt end. As long as rich people and cowards do not have to serve, nothing will change.
I must disagree. No draft except in case of world war.
As to a draft keeping Anerica out of another Viet Nam or Iraq.....I think its self evident that the draft in Viet Nam did not keep us out. Sure didn't keep me out. Darn it.
T More -------- If you deny the USA committed Genocide I suggest interviewing some Native Americans.
In the War you fought 10 million S.E. Asians died add that to the million Iraqi's and 100,000's Latin Americans and Africans killed directly by USA funded and armed groups and you have around 15 million people killed by the USA in the last fifty years.
No other country,in the last fifty years has been responsible for as many deaths outside it's borders as the USA.
In the last fifty years only China under Mao has killed more people but that within China proper( cultural revolution, great leap forward).
Glenn
"If you deny the USA committed Genocide I suggest interviewing some Native Americans." You can use genocide as to Native Americans in the strictiest meaning of the word. Personally I always felt it was used for its shock effect. If it was genocide we sure were lousy at it! But in the styrictest sence I couldn't deny the use of the term. Darfur is real genocide in my view. The Balkans were real genocide.
I would also suggest that many Native Americans refuse to admit real history....not that they don't have a gripe, they do...treaties were signed and should be honored. But the idea that they had right to all lands, were just a peaceful society with no agression till the white man came is laughfable. My God, the slaves in the South were treated far better than some tribes treated their slaves. I think its a matter of degree in all of this.
I remember about two million or so was the figure for Viet Nam and its peripheral effect. A good 1/4 of those directly attributal to the NVA. I fail to see how you lay every death in South East Asia at our door. There were many players there including the South East Asians themselves who were responsible for most of the other deaths you mention. I would appreciaste it if you didn't give a free pass to Russia, China, North Korea and some others for their involvement there. And the same for Latin America. Lets not take us off the hook for our responsibility, but lets not lay it all at our door either. A lot of the Iraqi's were not killed by Americans either.
As to China, you are correct except for Viet Nam, Cambodia, Tibet and others. But once again, lets not give all the other countries involved a free pass nor should we count all deaths we have been involved in as a bad thing. The Balkans for instance.
Personally I'd like to see us come home and let the rest of the world see to themselves, take care of our own defense and when some country called us tell them to go to the UN.
Thomas ------- Genocide is Genocide, especially to the victims. Whether it was inefficient clumsy Genocide ( which the killing of Native Americans was not) or efficient Genocide does not lessen evil or responsibilty.
Native Americans Culture is diverse and mutifaceted. What they did to their slave is irrelevant to Genocide. Blaming the victim is always a poor argument.
Otherwise you would support a Genocide against the USA slaveholders,many who were exremely cruel. In fact many fleeing slaves were protected by Native Americans (especially Cherokee and Choctaw). And in general Native Americans assimilated slaves into their society as freepeople.
The USA Vietnam War occured because the USA broke the Geneva Treaty (Paris?)demanding a free election between the South and North as a whole. So yes all the killing is the USA responsibilty. Also the false flag operation in the Bay of Tonkin
purposely began the War.
The use of Agent Orange to silt the canals and destroy agriculture was a genocidal strategy.
So the USA killed between 1 and 10 million in S.E.Asia.
The USA is responsible for all the deaths in Iraq, they intentionally started the War, it is their responsibilty.
So the USA killed 100,000 to 1 million in Iraq.
Which country,in the last fifty years, T. More, has killed as many people outside it's borders?
"Genocide is Genocide, especially to the victims"
Put that way....just as in "dead is dead" by any name..... I must agree. Nor did I intend to say clumsy or efficient genocide was good, just that the word has a fuller meaning to me. But I'm parsing too much in insisting my view is right.
"In fact many fleeing slaves were protected by Native Americans (especially Cherokee and Choctaw). And in general Native Americans assimilated slaves into their society as freepeople."
Quite true. The records don't reflect a fact of extreme cruelty by slave owners in the South, especially the black slave owners. Best I ever found was they were probably better than Romans and worse than Jews as slave owners.
"The USA Vietnam War occured because the USA broke the Geneva Treaty (Paris?)demanding a free election between the South and North as a whole. So yes all the killing is the USA responsibilty. Also the false flag operation in the Bay of Tonkin
purposely began the War."
Does this include the 50,000 + farmers in the North killed by the NVA before the war even got off the ground? Believe me.... there is no doubt as to the deaths from this war....I just believe some others need to take some of the responsibility and I'd say the real reason for it was stupidity and political ideology. The military certainly knew we could not "win" the "war", you can't sustain any sort of peace fighting a guerilla war where the people are with the guerillas The majority of Viet Namese feared or favored the North. All we had to do was ask the Chinese, the Japanese or the French about Viet Nam.
Hell, if I'd been Viet Namese I'd have been shooting at me too.
"The use of Agent Orange to silt the canals and destroy agriculture was a genocidal strategy."
I really believe that was just stupidity too. A matter of the moment when some idiot sitting around a cool safe table in Washington shouts "Eureka!" Remove their cover and we win!!
"The USA is responsible for all the deaths in Iraq, they intentionally started the War, it is their responsibilty."
Absolutely no doubt. Even the killings of Iraqi by Iraqui, the killing and rape of Christian Iraqui's would not have happened other than minute numbers but for Cheney and his Neocon trash attacking another country without justification. We may have mistakenly gotten in wars we shouldn't have, fought for the wrong reasons, but there is no defense for this war. It was a choice made by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearle and the rest of those cowards.
"Which country,in the last fifty years, T. More, has killed as many people outside it's borders?"
None. But I would point out no other country has been responsible for protecting the rest of the world for the last 50 years. You may not like it, but thats the simple truth.
I could even make a fairly good argument that there have been far less deaths because we were in charge. I could also make almost as good a case for the opposite view which you apparently hold. So I believe it comes down to how you want our country to proceed from here.
>>None. But I would point out no other country has been responsible for protecting the rest of the world for the last 50 years. You may not like it, but thats the simple truth.
Not a simple truth.
This is absolute and COMPLETE Garbage.
None of those millions the USA killed were any threat to the world Mr More. The USA was not protecting ME Mr More.
No Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotion, Panamian , or Indoensian was ever a threat to ME Mr more or to the world.
Nor were iraqis, or afghanis a threat. Nor the Chinese or the Russians for that matter.
You have bought into the salesmanship by the MIC hook line and sinker, but do not proclaim your being suckered as a "simple truth".
It is a LIE from beginning to end. I recognize you can not seperate a lie from the truth but do not presume the rest of us can not.
Same old refusal to recognize reality. You find the rest of the world far more loving than the one I have seen. Think there has been no confragalations because everyone was so nice.
You are welcome to the viewpoint. I just feel its naive and unworldly.
it is you that can not recognize reality mr more, or the truth.
Please detail how Granada was a threat to me and mine.
Once you answer that I have a a list of countries as long as my arm that the USA has attacked, bombed, sponsored coups against or funded terrorist groups inside of and will ask the same question.
Such as Iran , Chile, Vietnam , Nicaraugua, Panama , Indonesia, Iraq , Cuba, Libya and so on.
Please cite FACTS as to how these countries posed a threat to "world peace" .
Your "man of the world" wears rather thin.
Mr Moore : Your "I am more worldly than thou" is your delusion that supports your "the world is immensely threatening place".
By your reasoning anyone who was truely worldly should also be dead from having been exposed to so much the evil other.
Evil resides in the action and only the one specific human generator of the action is responsible for the evil.
Therefore if a USA soldier shoots you, the soldier is responsible and not Bin Laden.
Glenn, I don't want to come across as that, but the fact is that if you have any real experience of war, have been in countries other than on a bus tour, knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that our world is indeed not filled with people that wish you well.
Thinking the world is not threatening is wishful thinking, no more so than thinking you could remove the police from your community without some nasty results.This is a fact.
I'm sdorry if it doesn't fit GW's or your ideology or worldview, but I'm sure of this, its not opinion.
Mr. More ------- I see the disconnect in our experience and views.
Before Backpacking from Ireland to India overland I had already learned that the USA had some extremely cruel "owners" of enslaved people.
It had already been quite evident that the USA committed Genocide on Native Americans.
I already knew that the USA did very little good for poor countries but mainly used them for their resources.
It was already evident that the USA was slaughtering people in Vietnam for no reason and I should avoid being an Imperial Soldier at the risk of my soul.
I had already personally experienced the brutality of the USA military/political state.
So the people I ate and slept with throughout the world did not resent or hate me.
You had not realized these realities so the victims of USA Imperialism realized your lack of conciousness which had to be reflected in your speech and actions,and took out their anger on the Ugly American.
And seriously, You went to High School in the most racist and possibly least intellectual place I have every been.And I have been through the Deep South.
Whereas I have had the advantaged of being taught in liberal intellectual locale.
And for your own good you need to do some soul searching and realize that anyone who supports the immoral policies of influence by violence of the USA is fitting the profile of the German who supported the Nazi excuses of terrorism in it invasions.
A Good German is racist, in denial of the present and past realities,believes his country is exceptional and superior, believes he is good, is in denial of his nations crimes and demands no accountabilty.
You can judge for yourself how well your profile corresponse with that of a Good German.
The Vietnam War, Iraq War and Afghan War are not that much removed from putting people in ovens and definetely not that removed from invading much of Europe.
It does not follow from the necessity of law enforcement that there is a necessity for Wars of agression, as almost all the USA wars of the last fifty years have been.
Thomas More, if your personal "fuller" definition of genocide means not one last member of a particular race left standing, then yes, what we did to the Native Americans wouldn't fit your definition. But the generally accepted definition of genocide is "the systematic destruction of a particular group, in whole or in part". I think the key words are systematic destruction. And if you consider all the actions of the US government toward the Native Americans, it fits the meaning of genocide. The massacres, the smallpox infected blankets, the destruction of their food source (buffalo), the relocation to environments that couldn't sustain life, the removal of children to "Christian" orphanages to be reeducated (a euphemism for how they were treated and meant to destroy their culture with considerable success). If you take all the actions together, it falls under the definition of genocide. Estimates of the original population vary wildly from 5 to 150 million but most historians agree between 10 and 50 million. The low point was 250,000 in 1900, but European efforts to wipe out indigenous people was greatly assisted by their susceptibility to European diseases even without deliberate attempts to infect them. Currently 2.5 million Americans report themselves as Native American, but this does not distinguish how many are 100% Native American. Being 1/16 Cherokee, I am entitled to refer to myself as Cherokee and should I choose to do so, live on a reservation. So I don't think any of these numbers define genocide. I think behavior and intent defines it.
Why don't you ask Eisenhower about Vietnam? Oh, that's right, he's dead. But in 1956 he said, "We must not allow a vote to reunify Vietnam. Ho Chi Min would win in a landslide". And that is when we started getting seriously involved. We had been diddling around there until then, helping out the French who were getting thrown out. So obviously someone had to do something.
I question your assertion that our military adventures have been to make the world safer. They have been to secure other people's resources for our corporations. Of course the corporations have left us behind, going multinational. But we're still fighting their wars.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
BeForKids
"I think the key words are systematic destruction."
I agree. I just don't believe there was a plan. If it was a plan it was the worst military plan ever. If you wanted to erace the Native Americans from the face of the Earth, Americans had both the ability and means to do so. Which we didn't.
But I believe we are really arguing the same side of the quesrtion. I don't believe for one moment you or I or GW or Glen thinks this was a glorius achievement of western civilization or that it was right. I certainly don't. But thats what happened and we have to regret it, but there is nothing that can be done about it, all of those folks are long gone.
"the smallpox infected blankets"
That story has been debunked for years. Though disease brought by us killed more NA's than our bullets did by far.
"the removal of children to "Christian" orphanages to be reeducated"
This was a disgraceful element of the whole thing.
Most peopler don't recognize that it was Eisenhower that actually got us into Viet Nam even though it was Johnson that expanded our involvement. That one wasn't to protect the world for sure!
"I question your assertion that our military adventures have been to make the world safer."
I didn't say that. What I said was that we have been responsible for the worlds safety since WW2 and there is no doubt of it. And we ghave done a fair job of it, no matter if others don't like to admit it because it doesn't fit their worldview. But I would never say some of our military incursions have been anything but for exactly what you said, stupidity or someones foolish ideology.
I'd be surprised if there were more than a hundred thousand 100% pure NA's left, if that many. But its who you think you are that counts I believe. Some of the greatest NA's were only half NA like Chief Joseph.
More ------- You have not gotten much beyond the "Dallas" version of USA history.
The Smallpox blankets in Connecticut and Indiana are indusputable from journals of the time whether you prefer to admit it or not.
There was not just one "PLAN" to destroy the Native Americans there were many plans implemented at various times. "Christianizing" Assimilation, Allotments,War,Alchohol,Kidnapping,Deprivation of Land and Game, Enslavement.
The USA has only kept a select group safe, as a "Worldly" person would recognize.
Not Tibetian,, Not the Congolese, Ugandans, Darferi, North Koreans, Chinese,Not Gautemalans,Not Columbians,Not Haitian, Not Palestinians, Not Iraqi's, Not Vietnamese, Not Indonesians,Salvadorians,Not Bangaledishi's,Not Kurds in Turkey,Not Angolans, starting to get the picture, Mr. More the "Good German"?
You might be a bit wrong in your list and you left a lot of counteries off, a lot.
I'll let the Good German crack go just once. But don't say it or anything like it again. Its offensive to say the least.
Lookinig basck isnt it strange this subject came up on this thread at all.
My last word
B f K 3:46 Thanks I was getting tired.
Heck Glenn....I thought you had brought out the heavy artillery when she jumped in! (LOL)
Hope you're joking, Thomas More.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
By Mr Mores criteria no Genocide was committed against the Armenians or the Jews of Europe as a good number of them survived.
Thus by his criteria niether Nazi Germany or The Turks can be condemned.
Needless to say this LOGIC does not work with Mr Mores "Americans are exceptional and the rules do not apply to them" point of view.
I'm surprised you don't know that America is exceptonal, but not in the negative way most hard lefters mean it. (LOL)
"By Mr Mores criteria no Genocide was committed against the Armenians or the Jews of Europe as a good number of them survived.
Thus by his criteria niether Nazi Germany or The Turks can be condemned."
Tut, tut GW. Thats obviously not true. Of course those were genocides as there were formalized, and in the case of the Nazi's written plans to erace these people from the face of the Earth. Totally.
I've said more than once the use of "genocide" as in referring to say the Palestinians is used for its shock value. But that is my view, Glenn and BFK are ciorrect in the fact that the strict definition of the word makes their use of it correct. Perhaps you missed that post?
Thomas More, I suggest you read "I Buried My Heart at Wounded Knee" and then come back and discuss what we did to the Native Americans. As to genocide, we were better at it than you think.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
BeForKids
I have read it, been there and saw the terrain as a matter of fact.
Most here keep mistaking what I say. Its not that we are guiltless about Native Americans, far from it, but its no different than the Spaniards did in Mexico, the Inca's before them, the Mayans did in South America. I know two wrongs don't make a right! But most also forget this was a different time in history and it does make a difference.
I wouldn't say for a minute that things weren't done, Indians pushed off their lands and as hunter gatherers they needed vast amounts of land to support thei society, massacres like wounded knee......all these things were done. And we certainly should be ashamed of the actions of some of our ancestors.
As far as I can tell though there was no systematic attempt to wipe the Native Americans off the face of the Earth as a race....and thats what I view genocide as. I simply say you'll find similar behavior to ours among the tribes before we even got here so lets not get carried away too much condemnation. Want to read about some real violence and atrocities? Read about the Commanche push into Texas.
I am just saying you don't have to have only one side that is correct.
T More You need to go deeper into USA early history. The Native Americans were systematically killed and destroyed by Policies authorized by the Earliest Colonial Governors( smallpox blankets) too a Number of Presidents ( Jackson's purposeful destruction of Cherokees).
This is just like the torture and Iraq war, there is no moving forward until reality is admitted and responsibilty is assumed.
You sound like the child who says "well johnny did it first".
Glenn
I'm fairly well versed in History, though I would say I'm strongest on European in the 1900's and the Roman period. I would say I'm no expert in early American history, but I can say I know it enough to discuss it.
The "small pox blanket" story has been discredited many times. It originated in the West later on as far as I know.
I hate to sound like a child! But I'd say the world has long moved on. I don't think any American wouldn't acknowledge the wrongs done in those days (well some would, but they are a small bunch on racists). But if they are waiting for some national Mia Culpea, reparations as suggested by some, its going to be a long wait. The victim phase is passing fast in my opinion.
"The Native Americans were systematically killed and destroyed by Policies authorized by the Earliest Colonial Governors( smallpox blankets) too a Number of Presidents ( Jackson's purposeful destruction of Cherokees"
In certain instances you have a valid point, on a smaller scale like the Cherokees and Jackson you cite, even in my view that would qualify as genocide. And there were certainly other instances of the same sort of thing.
I do believe that reponsibility for the Native Americans still residing on the reservations need help that they are entitled to and are not, have not gotten. Like most things there is no simple answer.
The smallpox blankets were first known to have been distributed by I believe the first Conn. Governor Winthrope(?) in a town at a specific date on the Banks of the Connecticut River in trade for a large parcel of land.
The second well documented case took place many years later and involved the Indiana area in the (late)1800's.
How many Massacres of noncombatants must I elucidate before you admit it was systematic.
How many Presidential Policies before you admit it was pervasive?
You need to go alot deeper in history. I suggest you study the history of 100 tribes,in each case I bet money you will learn the tribes were fraudalently and/or violently deprieved of their lives, land and /or culture.
Kidnapping Children from many tribes and , prohibiting their native tongue and "christianizing" them was written policy for many years.
This is the formal definition of ethnic cleasing.
They were often sexually abused and beaten for running away.
The Indian Wars were about eradicating the "Savage terrorist".
Check every Presidents policy and learn how little of protecting and preserving Native Americans there was.
IF YOU NEVER ADMIT THE PAST HISTORY YOU ARE CONDEMDED TO REPEATING IT.
AS WE ARE NOW.
"The only documented case of smallpox blankets being given to Indians was by Captain Eucyer of the British army. I challenge anyone to offer documented proof, except for the two blankets given out by Captain Ecuyer at Fort Pitt, of smallpox infected blankets being deliberately given to Indians as a means of spreading smallpox." This is a fact. The ones you mentioned were fabricated by Churchill I believe, but it could have been someone else.
"I bet money you will learn the tribes were fraudalently and/or violently deprieved of their lives, land and /or culture."
Frankly I thought that fact was self evident. If you came to me like we came to them you had better bring your friends. You wouldn't get me to give up my home, my lands or culture unless you swindled me out of it or took them by force.
I think people are pretty much the same about this, no matter the country, no matter the ethnicity.
See my post to BeForKids about the forcing of kids into schools and the good christian folks that did it.
"The Indian Wars were about eradicating the "Savage terrorist"." True, but don't forget they often fought with us in the early days or with the French against us. Barbarity can give rise to little forgiveness on either side.
I also beelieve as I told BeForKids, I think we are arguing the same thing, just from different points, as I would agree with the final results and their causes.
Thomas More, when I was in school, we were not taught about how Native Americans were treated, or about slavery in the South (except how Lincoln freed the slaves) and as far as I know, American History is still a whitewash. In fact, American behavior is still a whitewash. So many people tell me we're the greatest country in the world. This leaves our leaders free to be unaccountable. I don't accept that. I think we need an honest look at our historical and current behavior. Otherwise Americans will go on bankrupting themselves to pay for foreign adventures and not even knowing why.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
BeForKids
"when I was in school, we were not taught about how Native Americans were treated, or about slavery in the South (except how Lincoln freed the slaves) and as far as I know, American History is still a whitewash"
I'm surprised, but you are younger than I am. I attended an integrated High School in Dallas and we certainly did. In fact we studied Southern slavery in Jr. High. Thats where I learned about Black slave owners. I didn't get to NA's in depth till High School but we certainly studied Wouded Knee, Sand Creek, how treaties were broken, etc. A lot of that canme in Civics class and Texas history.
I have recently looked at History books from High School and Colleges here and I'll tell you now they are a farce. While our text books were indeed slanted in our favor (big surprise) they did cover both sides of the issue and the information was there if anyone cared to look. These text books now are slanted far the other way and simply in some areas don't follow the historical records at all.
I'll tell you myself you live in what (has)(arguably still is) been the greatest country in the world, I've been in most and none compare. Though if you are rich there are some countries I wouldn't mind living in. ( I wouldn't actually, but they are great places for the rich) We are in the middle of what will be a renaissance in our country or the beginning of a slow decline. I hope its the former.
"I think we need an honest look at our historical and current behavior."
I totally agree with that, but it will have to be an honest look and an honest conversation. Nobodies propaganda has any place in such a discussion.
"When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty."
Indeed!
Oiligarchy vampires are killing our kids so we can drive our SUVs and they can fuel their private jets and megayachts.