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Senate, White House Health Reform Tucks in Gun Rights
Could we make this stuff up? We cannot get healthcare as a basic human right for one another. But we sure can make sure gun ownership protections are tucked into the Senate health reform bill that is so celebrated as historic by the White House.
It gives a whole new meaning to "kill the bill," doesn't it? Or maybe killing people in a number of ways just didn't really matter all that much in this process so far. Protecting the money and the power is what mattered. Is there any better explanation for including gun rights issues within healthcare legislation?
In an Associated Press report we read, "Gun rights lobbyists pushed for language to ban collection of data on gun ownership in the bill."
That's right. Somehow the gun lobby was able to secure its own special little deal to make sure those who wish to brandish guns are able to do so without too much scrutiny.
So, let's get another thing straight from Congress' health reform effort thus far. We cannot possibly protect the right to have healthcare professionals and patients decide on appropriate healthcare treatments without more intervention by private, for-profit insurance companies, but we can add in more protections for those who wish to kill with guns to do so?
I wonder how some of the folks who have endured horrific acts of gun violence in this nation would feel about that being including as a way to improve the nation's healthcare system? Was part of the intent to make sure those who are shot in our cities and schools and workplaces have insurance to cover those traumatic injuries in the future?
Guess I have more stock prices to check today. Health insurance giants. Big Pharma. Gun manufacturers.
Peace on earth, goodwill toward men. And pass the ammo with that, would you please?
- Posted in
86 Comments so far
Show AllAren't there constitutional questions about banning the collection of data concerning gun ownership? All the hotdogs with firearms are worried the government will come after them if they find out that some of their number are dealing guns with terrorists and criminals, but the argument can be made that restricting the government from learning about such activities might infringe upon the government's right to investigate crime. Aren't there security issues that need to be addressed? An FBI agent might want to know who just purchased a rifle capable of firing 15 shots in a round, especially if that model was sent to ten different names in a building all owned by the same guy. Why do I feel like this country is a powderkeg about to go off?
But central governments don't have "rights", Drosera. They have powers, but not rights; the PEOPLE have the rights, and the Constitution was written to guarantee the PEOPLE their rights and put limits on government power to infringe upon those rights. And the ultimate reason why RKBA exists is because if central governments have a monopoly on armed violence, they will turn dictatorial. (Note I say "WILL", not "may".)
As long as so-called "progressives" look askance at the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms (a right specifically enumerated in the Constitution, unlike health care), there's going to be trouble. There is NOTHING "progressive" about living in a dictatorship. To paraphrase Charles Bradlaugh, “Better a thousandfold abuse of RKBA than denial of it. The abuse dies in a day, but the denial slays the life of the people and entombs the hope of the race.”
PS: I'm a libertarian, and not an NRA member.
Gun rights has nothing to do with health care reform, idiot. There are other bills for gun rights. Besides, this nation is the liberal enough for anyone to own a firearm.
DD. That's the way law works here. There are amendments to each law for all sorts of things, this is just one of those. Probably an amendment added for a stoplight in East Wherever and a park bench in South Whocares. Rather than decrying this amendment, why not get to the point of the crappy bill itself? This is not reform and we ought to be working to defeat it for that reason.
yes, Universal Health Care is the only moral option
Agreed!
No nowhere near as scary as fascists, just tripping over their own feet.
Ah no, the right to keep and bear arms is NOT "specifically enumerated" in the Constitution, at least according to over 130 years of judicial rulings. The amendment references the use of well regulated militias as called up by the government. This leads to the creation of publicly financed, uniformed police identities ranging from the National Guard to uniformed police who carry firearms openly. As far the "right to health care" not being in the Constitution the Constitution does refer to the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Something tells me the current Milton Friedmanite designed, scummy Chicago boys dysfunctional health care system falls well short of meeting that objective.
There exists no indication that the ten Amendments of the Bill of Rights are ordered by rank of importance. However, you are correct in noting that the Second Amendment does legally protect a right, "of the people" to keep and bear arms (and thus guarantees an individual right to own firearms); this challenged interpretation of the plain text of the Amendment has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States of America and thus is the law of the United States of America. Civilian disarmament advocates deny this in spite of their claim being demonstrably false because they are irrational and dishonest.
"entombs the hope of the RACE" ? Sounds neo nazi to me.
Self defense -- good
Racism ---- bad !
"Was part of the intent to make sure those who are shot in our cities and schools and workplaces have insurance to cover those traumatic injuries in the future?"
Nah, the intent was to provide a solution to the problem of covering the health care needs of uninsured Americans. We'll have the gun owners kill them off.
odoco
Which senators pressed for this to be added to the bill?
They do not have to press ! All they do is add a simple amendment without having to read it.........There are 2000 pages, and not one Senator has read 100 pages..
"There will be a "New World Order" once there is total chaos within the United States........The Plan is so close to being completed and the "Murder" of innocent civilians in Yemen is meant as a signal to the Muslim World. We are coming to occupy your countries too.......of course, that will bankrupt the United States and that is the idea.
Sen Chuck Grassley of Iowa and Sen. Jon Tester of Montana, and Tester said proudly:
“In Montana, how many guns you own and where you keep them is nobody’s business—least of all the government’s or some health insurance company,” said Tester, vice chairman of the Congressional Sportsmen’s Caucus and a staunch supporter of gun rights. “I’m a proud supporter of this amendment because it will strengthen our Second Amendment rights as we hold America’s insurance industry accountable.”
Donna Smith, American SiCKO
i'll be the 1st to come in here and apologize for Senator Tester.... just look at that haircut and rest assured he's no liberal. Besides he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer so to say..... asked what his IQ was he said 20/20.
Clearly Mr. Tester has never had to fill out one of those 20 page applications for health insurance, where they ask questions much more invasive than whether you have firearms in the house that aren't locked up. Especially for women (menstrual and child bearing history), having to fill out an application, which is designed primarily to be able to deny you coverage, is rather humiliating to share such detail with strangers, not your doctor.
"Why do I feel like this country is a powderkeg about to go off?"
Could be because it is.
Perhaps you should take a lesson from President Obama, when asked about all the pork, and no related things on this bill he said “That’s how politics is done”
Why didn't they "tuck in" water boarding as legal interrogation domestically also. Or needing "Zose papers" to cross state lines? This is no Republic or Democracy; it is a disgrace and needs to fall!
what do we expect with just another republican in the White House -
i think we have to admit that 75% of the democrats would have been considered as obviously republican even 30 years ago....
even nixon was more liberal than Obama
horror of horrors!
I guess we don't have to waste time worrying about whether our kids will have it better than we did.....
can you imagine that if we progressives are going crazy over the Obama admin how long will it be until the rest of the world knows they've been bamboozeled?
and when that happens Lord help us!
these corporate, gun and war crazy psycopaths running our government are a danger to the entire world!
how long until the rest of the developed world gets sick of our act on a massive scale?
they were sick of bush and said at least America woke up and elected obama - now as the sellout becomes clearer the world is going to go nuts.....
should be fun!
Almost as fun as the coming civil war within the democratic party.
mtdon, you might be right! If you think about the buildup of rage in this world directed at the U.S.; about the desperation of people who are facing annihilation due to global warming; about the people who are beginning to starve and have no water......then ponder the size of the U.S. compared to the rest of the world.....then realize how many other nations have nuclear weapons and missiles, etc. well then, you begin to add two and two and come up with the question: Why haven't they tried to just eliminate us? This country is becoming (if not already is) the biggest threat to the rest of the world!
What can we learn from this? The U.S. doesn't seem to learn from it's mistakes very well. But what we need to face is the fact that backlash is inevitable unless we strike first! And, isn't that just what we are doing? We create "wars" to stay on the offensive so we don't have to be on the defensive! What people need to face is the fact that this situation (that is, dark leaders taking over) is happening because of us! We need to learn from it and quickly! What do we need to learn in order to turn this crazy country around? What are our leaders inadvertently teaching us?
Money is God! Corporations are in control! People don't matter! If all of this is the darkside...what is the lightside? Money is an allusion! Corporations do not have real power.....as we need to divest them of their rights as "individuals." People DO matter! We the people are the world! Leaders are here today and gone tomorrow......we need to evict all leaders who are espousing this darkness so that we can strike a balance in the world!!! Isn't this why we are really here? To evolve and transcend to higher planes? What is stopping us?! Fear? Are we afraid to be sick and have no insurance? Are we afraid we will not have a place to live, clothing, food, water? Then we can all be positively sure....THEY have already won!!!! They have stolen our lives!!!! They locked up the food and water and land and have made us SLAVES!!!!!!! They even steal US!!!!! They sell us on the BLACK MARKET!!!!
So....just who are "THEY?" People, turn around and look in a mirror! "THEY" are us!!!! Just people!!!! Those elites go to the toilet....and they stink just like we do! If you strip them of all their money and riches....they are just people like us! Face the Shadow in yourself and you will more clearly see the Shadow in others. Seeing the Shadow......speak to it. Tell it to behave and start cooperating with the light!!!!
Geez...I think there was something funny in my tea tonight!!!!
Well, according to the right-wingers, there was language in the bill to study the effects of guns on public health. I would assume this is in response to that provision, but who the hell knows, they never cited a section number as proof.
In fact, the organization "Gun Owners of America" had claimed -- incorrectly -- that language in the proposed bill would have mandated the collection of firearms ownership ownership information. This amendment appears to specifically address and falsify those concerns by explicitly prohibiting the very action that was claimed to be enabled by the bill. Unfortunately, a side effect of this relatively reasonable provision is the declaration by civilian disarmament advocates that the unreasonable collection of firearms ownership data should in fact be mandated by a health care reform act.
Do you know what the language on guns in the health care legislation actually was?
I found what is supposed to be the actual language about guns in the health insurance reform legislation:
c) PROTECTION OF SECOND AMENDMENT GUN RIGHTS.— ‘‘(1) WELLNESS AND PREVENTION PRO GRAMS.—A wellness and health promotion activity implemented under subsection (a)(1)(D) may not re- quire the disclosure or collection of any information relating to— ‘‘(A) the presence or storage of a lawfully- possessed firearm or ammunition in the residence or on the property of an individual; or ‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition by an individual. ‘‘(2) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION.—None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act orBAI09R08 S.L.C. 6 an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used for the collection of any information relating to— ‘‘(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; ‘‘(B) the lawful use of a firearm or ammu- nition; or ‘‘(C) the lawful storage of a firearm or am- munition. ‘‘(3) LIMITATION ON DATABASES OR DATA BANKS.—None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Afford- able Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used to maintain records of individual ownership or posses- sion of a firearm or ammunition. ‘‘(4) LIMITATION ON DETERMINATION OF PREMIUM RATES OR ELIGIBILITY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE.—A premium rate may not be increased, health insurance coverage may not be denied, and a discount, rebate, or reward offered for participation in a wellness program may not be reduced or withheld under any health benefit plan issued pursuant to or in accordance with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act on the basis of, or on reliance upon— ‘‘(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or ‘‘(B) the lawful use or storage of a firearm or ammunition. ‘‘(5) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS.—No individual shall be required to disclose any information under any data collection activity authorized under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act relating to— ‘‘(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or ‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition.’’.
That looks like the amendment Donna wrote about, not the provision it is supposedly meant to guard against.
Kay Johnson December 22nd, 2009 12:03 pm -- All this is clearly motivated by the fear that Americans might understand the serious consequences of our wild-west gun laws if they found out more about how guns figure in public heath. While 30,000 deaths annually due to being shot is only ten times the number of deaths in 9/11 (and we're not considering non-fatal injuries, of which there were relatively few from 9/11), it is fairly high on the list of public health problems. The less the public knows about that, the less likely needed gun control laws will be passed.
On the other hand, I can see that discriminating against gun owners is counter to the idea of universal health care. So in the end, I think some kind of protection to be sure gun owners (legal or not) aren't deprived of coverage is a good idea. Other laws can be used to deal with illegal, unwise, and dangerous practices involving guns held by private citizens, especially criminals, children, mentally ill and suicidal persons, gang members, people who become senile or physically unable to properly operate guns, persons lacking any training about gun safety, persons totally unsupervised in the possession of concealed weapons, etc.
As I had noted, the concerns related by the organization known as Gun Owners of America were not based upon actual reality.
Additionally, a persistent rumour regarding a proposal to tax firearms ownership had persisted, based upon an ultimately failed measure that had been proposed in the year 2000, has been recently (and, of course, incorrectly given that the bill has not been an actual legislative proposal for more than nine years) attributed as an amendment to the currently debated health care reform bill.
In fact, the organization "Gun Owners of America" had claimed -- incorrectly -- that language in the proposed bill would have mandated the collection of firearms ownership ownership information. This amendment appears to specifically address and falsify those concerns by explicitly prohibiting the very action that was claimed to be enabled by the bill. Unfortunately, a side effect of this relatively reasonable provision is the declaration by civilian disarmament advocates that the unreasonable collection of firearms ownership data should in fact be mandated by a health care reform act.
"...language in the bill to study the effects of guns on public health."
LOL, maybe they should hand out guns in schools for a while, get a closer study of the effects of guns on childrens health.
I've seen that happen in my local schools. The boys will get hooked to them like drugs while the girls will be intimidated. Kids should not be given firearms until they are mature, educated, and mentally sound.
That would be on average around age 75, I guess.
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ7J7UjsRqg
Life would be so bleak without The Onion.
It is a well-worn complaint of ours that obscene level of Defense spending always eclypses social spending. Oops, I forgot you were belly-aching about pistols and rifles, not F-22s, J-DAMS, railguns, bio-weapons, carrier groups, B-2s, and 800 bases MIC-worldwide.
Can I claim political Asylum in Canada?
actually you can. all you have to do set foot on Canadian soil any claim asylum. The process takes a really long time, during which the Canadian people will foot the bill for your health care. They pay about 40% taxes there and the sales tax is about 13%. Also, expect to pay taxes as well. Canada is not like the US where 40% of people don't pay fed taxes and keep whining.
Don't count on the asylum request to be approved tho. Good luck.
40% tax and guarenteed healthcare. I am in.. Now how do I get across the border to claim assylum?
Get a bus, plane, train ticket or drive your car north. Usually to the top end of the map you're using.
In order to claim asylum, it helps if you can actually prove that you're being oppressed. Considering that you come from a nation that is considered to be free and whatnot, you're claim is going to need a bit of work.
I would suggest that you make a bit of noise in the usa and get some official disapproval for what you say or do. (calling for an end to all gun ownership might just get you into canada) But be careful if you actually get arrested for something you might not be able to get asylum. It would help if you collected some death threats, written down is fine, you don't need your friends to sign them (better if they don't, and if they really do come from strangers than you're claim is all but assured.) I'd wish you luck, but really don't think anyone from the usa has been approved for asylum in the last few years. Unfortunately, considering the prime arsehat of canada is stevie harpy, a man who dreams of remaking canada in the image of the usa, the actual chances of getting an asylum claim approved are slim to 'you-have-got-to-be-fucking-kidding-me."
Hey, I'm more or less ok with it too. Used to live in Canada. The problem in the US is to convince the 40% that are not paying fed taxes to start doing it. That way they can get their "free" healthcare. Good luck with that.
Of course the anger displayed in the article by Donna Smith is justified. As with health care itself, education, in the long run, is the best solution.
It could start with headline writers. Instead of "Man Kills Wife, Children," "Robber Shoots Clerk," or "Boy Dies in Gun Accident," they could write, "Man Buys Gun at Gun Show, Shoots Family," "Robber Kills Clerk with Stolen Unsecured Gun," and "Boy Plays with Father's Rifle, Dies."
Why is anyone surprised? Everyone else has something stuck in this betrayal of the American people.
Heck, lets let the Republican Party put in funding for their National Convention next year, there seems to be everything else under the sun in it.
what I love is that the republicans get everything in the bill they want - and then vote against it to the person.....
so we a terrible bill in the name of bi-partisanship
and the rethugs get to say they didn'tvote against it - but get everything they wanted in the bill.
My god- how dumb are these democratic politicians......
Or better yet - how dumb are we to believe in or ever vote for another democrat again?
I cannot be surprised that for all of my 73 years on this planet that this Congress has no regards for the lives and health of the American people. I may be a strong supporter of the right to bear fire arms but none of that belongs to health care reform and the same holds for restricting abortion or providing more pork for the insurance and drug companies. As a consistent pro life senior, I also believe that life involves basic health insurance for everyone.
The means by which Bills are drawn up in the USA wherein Gun rights can be tacked into Healt Bills and unemployment benefits extensions into Military spending Bills has always struck me as about the strangest part of the SYSTEM.
No wonder these bills push 2000 pages.
Happy Holidays, Donna, if it ain't out o' keepin' with the situation!
See: Pork Greased Reform's Passage by Josh Gerstein elsewhere on this site.
I'll reconstruct a comment with some unpleasant imagery that I'd posted to a CD article yesterday-- the article AND my comment have since been disappeared:
Wise and worldly political hipsters have long pointed out that making legislation is like "making sausage"-- the public really doesn't "want" to see how it's made, or know what's actually stuffed inside the casing.
Born and raised in Philadelphia, PA, a city famous for a breakfast food called "scrapple", I well understand this coy caution. I DO eat scrapple once in a long while, and don't want to know what it's made of. (The name is a pretty good hint.)
However, this article and hundreds like it make clear that the "sausage-making" metaphor has become worn out.
Presently, Congress is like a person with multiple alimentary canal disorders and an unhealthy diet to boot. The more important the legislation is, the more it turns into a foul and sticky bolus.
As the bolus lurches through the interminable kinks of the fetid legislative intestine, and enters the terminal Congressional colorectal region, our Elected Misrepresentatives thrust as many politically and financially self-serving nuggets as they can think of deep inside the mystery blob.
Even before reading today's articles, I came across a comment stating that Harry Reid had gotten enough votes for passage by "stuffing the bill with pork".
I presume sucking up to gun fetishists is a form of pork.
The final act is to jam a couple of Hershey's kisses into the legislative turd and roll it in jimmies.
Then it's served to a desperate and starving public as a yummy treat-- oh, you may not like ALL of it, but there's a little something for EVERYBODY to like.
Our Elected Misrepresentatives consider this a "win-win" outcome.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Very funny. Do not forget that the Public is charged for this yummy treat.
So does Donna Smith join me in wanting to kill the bill?
I believe for a unified populist movement to arise the left needs to accept reasonable gun ownership rights ( compromise) and both sides need to accept the others abortion stance and the right needs to allow the needy poor and working to be subsidized. And the left needs to realize the right is not without brains or compassion.
How else will the corporate Plutocracy be destroyed?
Guns have 'rights' but Humans don't? Is this a country or what?
My 'guns' can vote for whoever they want but I sure won't vote for this gang.
If gun owners have done nothing wrong, then they have nothing to fear from the collection of gun ownership data.
I rather my neighbors have guns and I educate them to political realities and to what is in their self interest than they are disarmed and more vulnerable to government control.