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Israel's War Crimes
Israel blamed its earlier wars on the threat to its security, even that against Lebanon in 1982. However, its assault on Gaza was not justified and there are international calls for an investigation. But is there the political will to make Israel account for its war crimes?
For the first time since the establishment of Israel in 1948 the government is facing serious allegations of war crimes from respected public figures throughout the world. Even the secretary general of the United Nations, Ban Ki-moon, normally so cautious about offending sovereign states - especially those aligned with its most influential member, the United States - has joined the call for an investigation and potential accountability. To grasp the significance of these developments it is necessary to explain what made the 22 days of attacks in Gaza stand shockingly apart from the many prior recourses to force by Israel to uphold its security and strategic interests.
In my view, what made the Gaza attacks launched on 27 December different from the main wars fought by Israel over the years was that the weapons and tactics used devastated an essentially defenceless civilian population. The one-sidedness of the encounter was so stark, as signalled by the relative casualties on both sides (more than 100 to 1; 1300-plus Palestinians killed compared with 13 Israelis, and several of these by friendly fire), that most commentators refrained from attaching the label "war".
The Israelis and their friends talk of "retaliation" and "the right of Israel to defend itself". Critics described the attacks as a "massacre" or relied on the language of war crimes and crimes against humanity. In the past Israeli uses of force were often widely condemned, especially by Arab governments, including charges that the UN Charter was being violated, but there was an implicit acknowledgement that Israel was using force in a war mode. War crimes charges (to the extent they were made) came only from radical governments and the extreme left.
The early Israeli wars were fought against Arab neighbours which were quite literally challenging Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state. The outbreaks of force were of an inter-governmental nature; and even when Israel exhibited its military superiority in the June 1967 six day war, it was treated within the framework of normal world politics, and though it may have been unlawful, it was not criminal.
But from the 1982 Lebanon war this started to change. The main target then was the presence of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) in southern Lebanon. But the war is now mainly remembered for its ending, with the slaughter of hundreds of unarmed Palestinian civilians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. Although this atrocity was the work of a Lebanese Christian militia, Israeli acquiescence, control and complicity were clearly part of the picture. Still, this was an incident which, though alarming, was not the whole of the military operation, which Israel justified as necessary due to the Lebanese government's inability to prevent its territory from being used to threaten Israeli security.
The legacy of the 1982 war was Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon and the formation of Hizbullah in reaction, mounting an armed resistance that finally led to a shamefaced Israeli withdrawal in 1998. This set the stage for the 2006 Lebanon war in which the announced adversary was Hizbullah, and the combat zone inevitably merged portions of the Lebanese civilian population with the military campaign undertaken to destroy Hizbullah. Such a use of hi-tech Israeli force against Hizbullah raised the issue of fighting against a hostile society with no equivalent means of defending itself rather than against an enemy state. It also raised questions about whether reliance on a military option was even relevant to Israel's political goals, as Hizbullah emerged from the war stronger, and the only real result was to damage the reputation of the IDF as a fighting force and to leave southern Lebanon devastated.
The Gaza operation brought these concerns to the fore as it dramatised this shift away from fighting states to struggles against armed resistance movements, and with a related shift from the language of "war" to "criminality". In one important respect, Israel managed to skew perceptions and discourse by getting the media and diplomats to focus the basic international criminal law question on whether or not Israeli use of force was "disproportionate".
This way of describing Israeli recourse to force ignores the foundational issue: were the attacks in any legal sense "defensive" in character in the first place? An inquiry into the surrounding circumstances shows an absence of any kind of defensive necessity: a temporary ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that had been in effect since 19 July 2008 had succeeded in reducing cross-border violence virtually to zero; Hamas consistently offered to extend the ceasefire, even to a longer period of ten years; the breakdown of the ceasefire is not primarily the result of Hamas rocket fire, but came about mainly as a result of an Israeli air attack on 4 November that killed six Hamas fighters in Gaza.
Disproportionate force?
In other words, there were no grounds for claiming the right of self-defence as Israel was not the object of a Hamas attack, and diplomatic alternatives to force existed and seemed credible, and their good-faith reliance was legally obligatory. On this basis the focus of legal debate should not be upon whether Israeli force was disproportionate. Of course it was. The focus should be on whether the Israeli attacks were a prohibited, non-defensive use of force under the UN charter, amounting to an act of aggression, and as such constituting a crime against peace. At Nuremberg after the second world war, surviving Nazi leaders were charged with this crime, which was described in the judgment as "the supreme crime" encompassing the others.
The Gaza form of encounter almost by necessity blurs the line between war and crime, and when it occurs in a confined, densely populated area such as Gaza, necessarily intermingles the resistance fighters with the civilian population. It also induces the resistance effort to rely on criminal targeting of civilians as it has no military capacity directly to oppose state violence. In this respect, the Israeli attacks on Gaza and the Hamas resistance crossed the line between lawful combat and war crimes.
These two sides should not be viewed as equally responsible for the recent events. Israel initiated the Gaza campaign without adequate legal foundation or just cause, and was responsible for causing the overwhelming proportion of devastation and the entirety of civilian suffering. Israeli reliance on a military approach to defeat or punish Gaza was intrinsically "criminal", and as such demonstrative of both violations of the law of war and the commission of crimes against humanity.
There is another element that strengthens the allegation of aggression. The population of Gaza had been subjected to a punitive blockade for 18 months when Israel launched its attacks. This blockade was widely, and correctly, viewed as collective punishment in a form that violated Articles 33 and 55 of the Fourth Geneva Convention governing the conduct of an occupying power in relation to the civilian population living under occupation. This policy was itself condemned as a crime against humanity, as well as a grave breach of international humanitarian law.
It also had resulted in serious nutritional deficiencies and widespread mental disorders on the part of the entire Gaza population, leaving it particularly vulnerable to the sort of "shock and awe" attack mounted by Israel from land, air and sea. This vulnerability was reinforced by Israel's unwillingness to allow Gaza civilians to seek safety while the tiny Strip was under such intense combat pressure. Two hundred non-Palestinian wives were allowed to leave, which underscored the criminality of locking children, women, the sick, elderly and disabled into the war zone, and showed its ethnically discriminatory character. This appears to be the first time in wartime conditions that a civilian population was denied the possibility of becoming refugees.
In addition to these big picture issues, there are a variety of alleged war crimes associated with Israeli battlefield practices. These charges, based on evidence collected by human rights groups, include IDF firing at a variety of civilian targets, instances where Israeli military personnel denied medical aid to wounded Palestinians, and others where ambulances were prevented from reaching their destinations. There are also documented claims of 20 occasions on which Israeli soldiers were seen firing at women and children carrying white flags. And there are various allegations associated with the use of phosphorus bombs in residential areas of Gaza, as well as legal complaints about the use of a new cruel weapon, known as DIME, that explodes with such force that it rips body parts to pieces.
These war crimes concerns can only be resolved by factual clarifications as to whether a basis exists for possible prosecution of the perpetrators, and commanders and political leaders to the extent that criminal tactics and weaponry were authorised as matters of Israeli policy. In this vein too are the Israeli claims relating to rockets fired at civilian targets and to Hamas militants using "human shields" and deliberately attacking from non-military targets.
Even without further investigation, it is not too soon to raise questions about individual accountability for war crimes. The most serious allegations relate to the pre-existing blockade, the intrinsic criminality and non-defensiveness of the attack itself; and the official policies (eg confinement of civilian population in the war zone) have been acknowledged. The charges against Hamas require further investigation and legal assessment before it is appropriate to discuss possible arrangements for imposing accountability.
A question immediately arises as to whether talk of Israeli war crimes is nothing more than talk. Are there any prospects that the allegations will be followed up with effective procedures to establish accountability? There are a variety of potentially usable mechanisms to impose accountability, but will any of these be available in practice? This issue has been already raised by the Israeli government at the highest levels in the form of official commitments to shield Israeli soldiers from facing war crimes charges.
The most obvious path to address the broader questions of criminal accountability would be to invoke the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court established in 2002. Although the prosecutor has been asked to investigate the possibility of such a proceeding, it is highly unlikely to lead anywhere since Israel is not a member and, by most assessments, Palestine is not yet a state or party to the statute of the ICC. Belatedly, and somewhat surprisingly, the Palestinian Authority sought, after the 19 January ceasefire, to adhere to the Rome Treaty establishing the ICC. But even if its membership is accepted, which is unlikely, the date of adherence would probably rule out legal action based on prior events such as the Gaza military operation. And it is certain that Israel would not cooperate with the ICC with respect to evidence, witnesses or defendants, and this would make it very difficult to proceed even if the other hurdles could be overcome.
The next most obvious possibility would be to follow the path chosen in the 1990s by the UN Security Council, establishing ad hoc international criminal tribunals, as was done to address the crimes associated with the break-up of former Yugoslavia and with the Rwanda massacres of 1994. This path seems blocked in relation to Israel as the US, and likely other European permanent members, would veto any such proposal. In theory, the General Assembly could exercise parallel authority, as human rights are within its purview and it is authorised by Article 22 of the UN charter to "establish such subsidiary organs as it deems necessary for the performance of its function". In 1950 it acted on this basis to establish the UN Administrative Tribunal, mandated to resolve employment disputes with UN staff members.
The geopolitical realities that exist within the UN make this an unlikely course of action (although it is under investigation). At present there does not seem to be sufficient inter-governmental political will to embark on such a controversial path, but civil society pressure may yet make this a plausible option, especially if Israel persists in maintaining its criminally unlawful blockade of Gaza, resisting widespread calls, including by President Obama, to open the crossings from Israel. Even in the unlikely event that it is established, such a tribunal could not function effectively without a high degree of cooperation with the government of the country whose leaders and soldiers are being accused. Unlike former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, Israel's political leadership would certainly do its best to obstruct the activities of any international body charged with prosecuting Israeli war crimes.
Claims of universal jurisdiction
Perhaps the most plausible governmental path would be reliance on claims of universal jurisdiction (1) associated with the authority of national courts to prosecute certain categories of war crimes, depending on national legislation. Such legislation exists in varying forms in more than 12 countries, including Spain, Belgium, France, Germany, Britain and the US. Spain has already indicted several leading Israeli military officers, although there is political pressure on the Spanish government to alter its criminal law to disallow such an undertaking in the absence of those accused.
This path to criminal accountability was taken in 1998 when a Spanish high court indicted the former Chilean dictator, Augusto Pinochet, and he was later detained in Britain where the legal duty to extradite was finally upheld on rather narrow grounds by a majority of the Law Lords, the highest court in the country. Pinochet was not extradited however, but returned to Chile on grounds of unfitness to stand trial, and died in Chile while criminal proceedings against him were under way.
Whether universal jurisdiction provides a practical means of responding to the war crimes charges arising out of the Gaza experience is doubtful. National procedures are likely to be swayed by political pressures, as were German courts, which a year ago declined to proceed against Donald Rumsfeld on torture charges despite a strong evidentiary basis and the near certainty that he would not be prosecuted in the US, which as his home state had the legally acknowledged prior jurisdictional claim. Also, universal jurisdictional proceedings are quite random, depending on either the cooperation of other governments by way of extradition or the happenchance of finding a potential defendant within the territory of the prosecuting state.
It is possible that a high profile proceeding could occur, and this would give great attention to the war crimes issue, and so universal jurisdiction is probably the most promising approach to Israeli accountability despite formidable obstacles. Even if no conviction results (and none exists for comparable allegations), the mere threat of detention and possible prosecution is likely to inhibit the travel plans of individuals likely to be detained on war crime charges; and has some political relevance with respect to the international reputation of a government.
There is, of course, the theoretical possibility that prosecutions, at least for battlefield practices such as shooting surrendering civilians, would be undertaken in Israeli criminal courts. Respected Israeli human rights organisations, including B'Tselem, are gathering evidence for such legal actions and advance the argument that an Israeli initiative has the national benefit of undermining the international calls for legal action.
This Israeli initiative, even if nothing follows in the way of legal action, as seems almost certain due to political constraints, has significance. It will lend credence to the controversial international contentions that criminal indictment and prosecution of Israeli political and military leaders and war crimes perpetrators should take place in some legal venue. If politics blocks legal action in Israel, then the implementation of international criminal law depends on taking whatever action is possible in either an international tribunal or foreign national courts, and if this proves impossible, then by convening a non-governmental civil society tribunal with symbolic legal authority.
What seems reasonably clear is that despite the clamour for war crimes investigations and accountability, the political will is lacking to proceed against Israel at the inter-governmental level, whether within the UN or outside. The realities of geopolitics are built around double standards when it comes to war crimes. It is one thing to proceed against Saddam Hussein or Slobodan Milosevic, but quite another to go against George W Bush or Ehud Olmert. Ever since the Nuremberg trials after the second world war, there exists impunity for those who act on behalf of powerful, undefeated states and nothing is likely to challenge this fact of international life in the near future, thus tarnishing the status of international law as a vehicle for global justice that is consistent in its enforcement efforts. When it comes to international criminal law, there continues to exist impunity for the strong and victorious, and potential accountability for the weak or defeated.
It does seem likely that civil society initiatives will lead to the establishment of one or more tribunals operating without the benefit of governmental authorisation. Such tribunals became prominent in the Vietnam war when Bertrand Russell took the lead in establishing the Russell Tribunal. Since then the Permanent Peoples Tribunal based in Rome has organised more than 20 sessions on a variety of international topics that neither the UN nor governments will touch.
In 2005 the World Tribunal on Iraq, held in Istanbul, heard evidence from 54 witnesses, and its jury, presided over by the Indian novelist Arundhati Roy, issued a Declaration of Conscience that condemned the US and Britain for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and named names of leaders in both countries who should be held criminally accountable.
The tribunal compiled an impressive documentary record as to criminal charges, and received considerable media attention, at least in the Middle East. Such an undertaking is attacked or ignored by the media because it is one-sided, and lacking in legal weight, but in the absence of formal action on accountability, such informal initiatives fill a legal vacuum, at least symbolically, and give legitimacy to non-violent anti-war undertakings.
The legitimacy war
In the end, the haunting question is whether the war crimes concerns raised by Israel's behaviour in Gaza matters, and if so, how. I believe it matters greatly in what might be called "the second war" - the legitimacy war that often ends up shaping the political outcome more than battlefield results. The US won every battle in the Vietnam war and lost the war; the same with France in Indochina and Algeria, and the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. The Shah of Iran collapsed, as did the apartheid regime in South Africa, because of defeats in the legitimacy war.
It is my view that this surfacing of criminal charges against Israel during and after its attacks on Gaza resulted in major gains on the legitimacy front for the Palestinians. The widespread popular perceptions of Israeli criminality, especially the sense of waging war against a defenceless population with modern weaponry, has prompted people around the world to propose boycotts, divestments and sanctions. This mobilisation exerts pressure on governments and corporations to desist from relations with Israel, and is reminiscent of the worldwide anti-apartheid campaign that did so much to alter the political landscape in South Africa. Winning the legitimacy war is no guarantee that Palestinian self-determination will be achieved in the coming years. But it does change the political equation in ways that are not fully discernable at this time.
The global setup provides a legal framework capable of imposing international criminal law, but it will not be implemented unless the political will is present. Israel is likely to be insulated from formal judicial initiatives addressing war crimes charges, but will face the fallout arising from the credibility that these charges possess for world public opinion. This fallout is reshaping the underlying Israel/Palestine struggle, and giving far greater salience to the legitimacy war (fought on a global political battlefield) than was previously the case.
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127 Comments so far
Show AllIsrael is a terrorist state. It has no choice, only through terror it can hold on to land it stole, and I mean in 1948, not 1967.
Why don't Palestinians gecognize Israel's right to exist? Look at the nations who are loudest in condemning Israel. A regular rogues' gallery of nations. Iran, a nation that held a conference to say that the holocaust is a hoax, Saudi Agabia, where women have zero rights and where a Muslim who converts to another religion is sentenced to death. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. These nations are far worse than Israel. SUch hypocracy.
The sins of other nations do not excuse Israel's trangressions.
q
So are you saying that Israel has to stoop down to level of the worst? Why are you mentioning all these other countries that has nothing to do with the atrocity committed by the Israeli terrorists? Trying to divert the topic? You fucking racist buffoon!
BTW, Israel does not and never did recognize Palestine. When is that going to change?
Israel doesn't have the right to exist by stealing other people's land (700,000 were dislodged in 1948) just because the Bible, a book of fiction, says so.
A speaking of rogue nations, Israel has the support of by far the roguest and bloodiest in world's history: the US.
How about Israel recognizing the right of others to exist?
Excuse me, but it doesn't work that way. Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian lives. You haven't been paying attention. I prescribe a week of non-stop holocaust movies to correct this dangerous and inexcusable flaw in your perception.
Is there some law of physics that says there must be a Jewish state called "Israel" on the banks of the river Jordan? I didn't think there was.
Israel has only the right to exist that it can negotiate with the 300 million arab neighbors. It has only the right to resources within it's perimeter. If the Arabs ever grow a pair and mine the Israeli ports we will quit having this argument after a few years.
The US is bankrupt and can't do jack so Israel better start getting along with the rest of the neighborhood.
The caged Palestinians, and their Israeli masters, is a cruel daily sight to behold.
A short leashed dog chained unhoused in a backyard's corner. And when the dying animal howls or bites in desperation, the owner kicks and beats with ease.
Perhaps PETA could lend Hamas a helping hand.
If Palestinians want to be treated better, they should consider growing a tail:
http://tinyurl.com/b3pn2s
Zionists accepted the native animals and, of course, the land. It was only the people that they object to. Here's an excerpt from Norman Finkelstein's 'Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict':
Zionism did not 'resort' to force. Force was--to use Shapira's apt phrase in her conclusion--'inherent in the situation'. Gripped by messianism after the issuance of the Balfour Declaration, the Zionist movement sought to conquer Palestine with a Jewish Legion under the slogan 'In blood and fire shall Judea rise again'. When these apocalyptic hopes were dispelled and displaced by the mundane reality of the British Mandate, mainstream Zionism made a virtue of necessity and exalted labor as it proceeded to conquer Palestine 'dunum by dunum, goat by goat'.
http://books.google.com/books?isbn=9781859844427
You really should consider the debilitating effects of inbreeding.
thong-girl
cape_fear,
I could not agree more.
Peta has its hands full with dogs left on chains their entire lives in US backyards.
Not to mention the billion other atrocities committed against non humans.
I just hope Ali Abunimah paid attention to what happened at the gaza zoo.
He keeps saying Israel cares more about non humans than it does Palestinians.
Non humans have their own problems-including being caught in the middle of human religious stupidity.
This conflict has as much to do with "human religious stupidity" as the conflict due to apartheid racial system in South Africa of 20 years ago. Following is a comment by an Israeli about the type of person who is the most gung ho member of his society:
I know that for Americans it's very hard to understand, but being a liberal and serving in an elite combat unit goes hand in hand here.
If you don't believe me, just read the news stories, and the kidnapped soldiers. The front lines are CEOs, lawyers, scientists, mathematicians, accountants and what not. The middle+ class are the people that go to war. The most leftist and liberal leaders were always the best generals--Rabin (Oslo) , Barak (pulled out of Lebanon), and in his last years, Ariel Sharon who pulled out of Gaza. And most importantly, there is not a single religious general, and Israel never had a religious leader.
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=634525&cid=24458639
how many 1000's of missiles have been fired into Israel by Palestinians? Is that a war crime too? Pres Clinton got Arafat every concession he wanted and Arafat walked away. Stop blaming Israel. Israel is a democracy with freedom for all its citizens. How free are women in most of the Middle East? The bottom line is our new Progressive President, Barack Obama stands with Israel and is correct to do so!
Brainwashing lies, and since when is Obama "progressive"? lolol. He's to the right of Nixon.
Israel is a terrorist nation that doesn't belong where it stands, and it won't have peace until it returns all the land it stole. I mean ALL the land.
I've seen this on several boards, it's as though they think calling Obama 'Progressive' will strengthen their argument, perhaps even stifle further opposition. It's laughably naive.
Translation: Israel won't have peace until it is destroyed. Proving the maxim "If the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be no conflict. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
"Translation: Israel won't have peace until it is destroyed. Proving the maxim "If the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be no conflict. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
Aw, c'mon. Don't be like that. Bernie Madoff would spring for cruise ships to pick you all up off the beaches. We could buy you some of those empty condos in Florida. Lot's of room in Florida when everybody else evacuates ahead of the hurricanes. Don't mind that Global Warming stuff none as it won't be any worse in Florida than Israel. Dust or drowning; your choice.
Israel is a democratic theocracy. It is often correctly referred to as "the Jewish State" and, I believe, by it's constitution, is intended to be Jewish controlled. This is one of the problems the Jews have with including arabs as citizens, they wish to maintain a jewish majority. The Israeli flag has the Star of David on it. That is the equivalent of the US putting the christian cross on our flag.
You are correct that Israel is constituted as the state of the Jews, and not of its inhabitants or citizens. It is this essential fact that makes it liable to being
considered a "racist" state. It is hard to see how a state favoring one religious group over another could be considered otherwise, despite the fact that the term "racist" is not technically correct.
Thought the government institutes more and more theocratically-inspired legislation as time goes on, it cannot (yet) be considered a theocracy: the State is secular, with much religious influence, almost all of it self-destructive.
For more on this subject, see Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel by Israel Shahak.
Oh, please!!!
Waily, waily, waily, the caged Palestinians under threat of constant artillery barrages and drone bombing with thousand-pound bombs have fired oversized fireworks into Israel.
Tough shit; they deserved it.
The Israeli's in an average month kill each other at ten times the rate with their cars than the bottle rockets from Gaza could ever possibly hope to achieve. You don't see them cluster-bombing the neighborhoods of bad drivers do you?
The claim that Israeli murder of non-combatants has any justification just doesn't hold water.
.
Over the last 40 years, Israel has lost the high moral ground. No more "under dog" status. Today it has received over a Trillion U.S. Taxpayers' Dollars and Military Aid. Today Israel has over 300++ Nulcear Bombs and Missiles.
Today Israel has become a Nazi Police State.
Zionists regard the Palestinian peoples as "untermenschen", and their territory suitable for "lebensraum" --the living space-- that Israel's dream of a new Davidic Empire requires.
The United States of America does not share this dream of expansion. Our national goals are not imperial aggression. We must break with Israel.
Israel has become a War Criminal Rogue State.......bent on the Genocide of the Palestinian peoples. and any other Arab state that stands in their way.
The United States must break with Israel....NOW
,
Hamas' war crimes should be your concern. Israel responded to multiple acts of war in the firing into their teritory of over 10,000 rockets by Hamas. It is time to punish Hamas and to hold war crimes trials for it's leaders. They violated international law by waging war from behind civilian shields. they violated international law by attacking Israel with thousands of rockets. It is time to bring these fascist thugs before the Hague.
In a single word: BULLSHIT!
Stop making up facts please!
This is no Bullshit.
Since 2001 more than 10,000 rockets and mortar bombs (combined) had been fired from Gaza into Israel.
More than 3,000 only in 2008.
Again....BULLSHIT.
BTW,
how many did the IDF let loose in a single month? Forget about the number since their brutal and racist occupation.
You seem to be overlooking one small fact. Hamas is firing rockets, which are little more than giant fire-crackers, into land that belonged to them before it was stolen by Israel. I'm sure if they got their land back, they'd stop shooting rockets. This is not rocket science.
My first question is who owned the land before the Arabs?
And the 2nd: Am I to understand you support war crimes as long as the victims are Israelis?
(targeting civilians is a war crime according to the Geneva convention, regardless of the question wheater they live on a "stolen" land or not)
you asked who owned the land before the arabs? really? Are we supposed to give the Land inside north america back to the native americans based on your ridiculous knee-jerk response to war crimes?!
I think the guy's response above implied that if a state security apparatus that brags about how tough they are worldwide yet can't stop a bunch of bottle rockets made out of fertilizer from going over an illegal wall then what kind of tough guys are they to carpet bomb civilians and hide behind our american gov't?
Why waste money of training paramilitary groups in Israel if they aren't ever used until the palestinian population is nearly all dead?
Some of the missiles fired on Israeli civilians from Gaza are Iranian 122-mm Grad (range 20.4km) rockets - The Hamas also fired more than 4,000 mortar bombs on civilian targets.
These are NOT bunch of bottle rockets made out of fertilizer.
- As for the question of who owned the land before the Arabs. I'll ask a different one. When Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, or Nazareth, were the people he met Palestinian?
Seeding the lies with a grain of truth again?
Try this: How many Israelis were killed last year in traffic accidents? How many were killed by those firecrackers?
What percentage of Palestinian rockets or mortars result in death or injury? One percent? Even that?
What percentage of Israeli shelling and bombs dropped result in death or injury? Ninety-five percent or better I'd guess.
So the Palestinians fired two or three large rockets to respond to the thousand pound bombs and the line of sight tank fire on apartment buildings. Sounds a little like deliberate overkill.
This is a discussion forum and not an investigation. As such, it would seem fair if the first person who was asked a question would be the first to reply.
Once you'll be kind enough to answer my questions, I'll be happy to reply to yours.
"My first question is who owned the land before the Arabs?"
The Romans!!! The Ceasers really understood how to deal with problems in Palestine.
amerikeister -
Would you remind me again about the number of Israelis killed by those "murderous rockets" in the two years prior to the massacre?
I think it rhymes with Nero
Unfortunately, the United States and Israel have refused to become parties to the International Criminal Court, so their influence there is not what it might be. The US and Israel are also in a difficult position with the ICC, because they are the only two states in the world that voted against a United Nations resolution calling on all member states to observe international law.
Your comment has, unfortunately, also unintentionally reversed the causality of the recent onslaught against Gaza. As reported in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz and many other sources, Israel did not "respond" to Hamas fire, but initiated the attack after Hamas had complied with the cease-fire. This was despite Israel's illegal blockade of food and medicine; this blockade, by the way, constituted a war crime and a crime against humanity: you will find, if you care to look, that collective punishment is expressly forbidden by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions.
The documentary record shows that since 1976, the United States and Israel have voted almost alone in the world, against the Resolution for the Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question. All of the Arab nations have voted in favor. You can find records of all the votes since 1976 on the United Nations website.
Because you find inspiration in international law, you may wish to learn more about the illegal occupations of Gaza and the West Bank and the Ansar torture centers, where Israelis have tortured thousands of Palestinians in recent years. For further facts on these issues, see Amnesty International reports on the Middle East, Humann Rights Watch, the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem and Rabbis for Human Rights.
Please be accurate. The Hamas had not complied with the cease-fire. In december 2008 they had declared the cease-fire over, and increased the rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets from an average of 1.5 rockets a days during the cease-fire to 60 - 70 rockets a day.
Iran doesn't sell oil to Israel - is that equally constitute a collective punishment and a crime against humanity?
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. It seems you say Hamas declared the cease-fire over before it sent rockets. This type of action would not be admirable, of course, butit would not, by definition, constitute a violation of a cease-fire.
I assume your question about oil sales is meant as a joke. If not, please let me know.
Israel's history with Iran is an interesting one, often forgotten. The Iranian people have never forgiven Israel for lending tactical and technical support to the Shah during his terror regime. It is a shame that Israel provided training to the SAVAK internal police forces, which were developed on the model of the Gestapo. Thousands were tortured or murdered by this rogue police force, of course, and that leaves a bitter taste.
This is particularly troublesome against the historical background: It is well-known, though not in the US, that the United States government murdered Mr. Mossadegh, the democratically-elected leader of Iran, and installed in his place the Shah, a dictator who would do the bidding of US corporations.
Best Wishes
"Hamas' war crimes should be your concern. Israel responded to multiple acts of war in the firing into their teritory of over 10,000 rockets by Hamas."
If the IDF had kept itself out of Gaza and responded with 10,000 rockets of the exact same size, weight and accuracy nobody, but nobody would be accusing Israel of war crimes. Nobody gives a crap about tit for tat artillery duels.
That didn't happen. The IDF deliberately duplicated the results of Sabra and Shatilla and engaged in massacres of civilian women and children. It's Israel state POLICY to eliminate Palestinians by removing access to food, water, fuel and medical supplies.
How is Israel going to make peace with it's neighbors? Who wants a crazy person next door who is always threatening to burn down the neighborhood?
Here come the apologists! I find it fascinating that people so obviously bereft of morals, humanity or even general concepts of decency will demand we pity them, see them as eternal victims (while being careful to acknowledge their obvious superiority), all the while explaining why it's perfectly legitimate to commit war crimes, slow-motion genocide and behave like repugnant, smarmy assholes.
The Hasbarist Irregulars here are serving up some pretty thin and rancid stew, though: lumpenhasbarism.
There are Hasbarist Berserker Trolls who will comment in circles for hours, and will endlessly recycle factoids and arguments that have been comprehensively refuted and discredited along the way.
Or deny that they wrote this or that, only to have responders link or paste the actual comment(s) that the HBT is now denying.
At which point the HBT, like a Roomba of propagandizing, simply silently slides away from the dispute and takes up another topic. Ad infinitum.
I typically scroll past.
· Yr Obd't Servant
I like that. "Roomba of propagandizing." Quite apt.
Israel is not a terrorist state. 'Terrorists' are usually fighting oppression and not terrorists at all, but victims hanging on to life.
Israel, The Jewish Country, is a State of Sadism & Torture, a 'people' that ENJOY murder, that ENJOY watching those they are feeding through a meat grinder suffer and die.
Psycopaths and again, Sadists.
1. The needless 100:1 mass murder spree.
2. Jewish kids and their mommies signing bombs used to kill Arab babies and their mothers.
3. Israeli-Jews picnicking and laughing watching Gaza cilivilians bombed.
4. The crowd of Israeli-Jews at the soccer game after the Gaza Holocoast singing in celebration about the DEAD CHILDREN. Hundreds, thousands? of these Jewish-Israeli's Dancing, Singing, Joy, Oh Joy, Dead Arabs Kids Oh Boy!
These are symptoms of the disease of the worst Nazis, of Pol Pot, of Pinochet.
The Disease is when one, when a group when a CHOSEN PEOPLE start to ENJOY the Killing. This disease is now feeding on itself. As proof I offer it's soul, or what is left of it.
Enter the void of murder and the void displaces your heart & soul. Unless their was none to begin with.
Joe.
I think you're on to something there.
The story today is that Israel bombed Gaza at a time when Bush was impotent, and to deliberately rub Obama's nose into the fact that he was also at their disposal. Needless to say, it has worked as Obama has totally capitulated to all Israel and American lobby demands. Once again, the story is barely being told, and everyone knows about it.
thong-girl
t_g
I would've never thought that in my old age I'll have to comment on articles criticizing Israel. As a Jew, I do feel the pain and a bit of irony. I (and my husband too) have relatives in Israel and we regularly visit the country, even though we are not religious and never have been.
In the past I've never really been political, we watched the news, commented a bit and then just went about our business as usual. We haven't really analyzed that why's and the who's. We hated Arafat's terrorists, but we didn't like the overtly chauvinistic rants of Ben Gurion or Dayan. (pls note: I'm of an older generation than most on this forum)
Lately however we've noticed that the Palestinians are not always wrong and in our retirement we've started to learn a bit about both sides rights and wrongs. Also, we've travelled quite extensively in the Arab countries (from Morocco to Yemen) mainly to see ancient ruins, but also to experience their present culture.
To our surprise the Arabs seem to be very hospitable, frienly and kind people. We've been invited to weddings, various feasts (probably "just so", for no reason gatherings) and have never experienced anything but kindness.
We travel as Australians of Hungarian-French origin, not religious. Maybe, should we confess that we are both of Jewish origin, there would be a different treatment...
I'm not on the sideline in this issue and as a Jew living in the diaspora, I wish no country would be run along religious lines: no "Jewish State" and no "Sharia Law" state.
ps: anybody heard from NYC Artist?
I do believe that this is perhaps one of the worst articles I have read on the subject. It is dishonest from beginning to end, and it says more about this author than about tuth, which is sorely lacking. How anyone of reasonable intelligence can believe this pack of lies is beyond me.
Just what we need..another arab apologist and closet anti-semite - obviously the world needs more of both.
There are so may lies here that reading this was really difficult.
Of course, hamas has no responsibility..they are just innocent victims. Wait a minute..aren't they ALWAYS the victims??
It's mind-boggling what passes for jornalism these days. I advise everyone here to grab an encyclopedia..and expose this writer for what he is....
isczack,
You are referred to post 5:34 opeluboy.
Amibiguity Still? I hate that.
Reread 5:34 post until confusion gone.
I know you'll want to thank me, so you are welcome ahead of time, Joe.
I have taken your advice to heart, and have looked in various Jewish Encyclopedias and history books, almost all of them by Israeli or Jewish authors. I conclude from them that Mr. Falk is telling the truth here.
I notice when I check the record of UN votes, that Israel and the United States have, since 1976, been almost alone in voting against the Peaceful Resolution of the Palestine Question.
As an American, a rabbinical student and a human being, I am astonished at the vileness of Israel's record of invasion and occupation.
For more facts, and ways to work for justice, see B'Tselem and Rabbis for Human Rights.